Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 09, 2018

MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-45

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

The timestamp question is solved, but there still many, many other inconsistencies.

There is a report of a very large Turkish Army convoy entering Syria's Idleb province. That is wishful thinking by some "rebel" circles. Turkey is only strengthening its border position. It is unlikely to intervene in the Syrian and Russian 'Idleb Dawn' operation to free the province of terrorists.


 Finally a realistic assessment of the British role in World War II:

Peter Hitchens @ClarkeMicah - 7:40 utc- 9 Sep 2018

Actually no, we didn't Win the Second World War. We started it, but, thanks to our weakness and shortage of cash had to hand it over to the USA and the USSR half way through. First extracts, in the Mail on Sunday, from my new book 'The Phoney Victory'

The limeys will be livid about this insult and ignore the truth. Recommended.

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on September 9, 2018 at 17:20 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

Greece (the poster)= Troll...

Posted by: kgw | Sep 10 2018 20:13 utc | 101

Matter of fact, lots o' Trolls about! Must be the weather...Where ever they are!

Posted by: kgw | Sep 10 2018 20:15 utc | 102

Mark2 @100

For christ's sake, I know all about the Daily Mail. I don't give a shit about the Daily Mail. But Peter Hitchen's is not a fascist before he wrote for the Daily Mail or while he's writing for it; we'll have to see what he does and says in the future.

And the Daily Mail readers are not fascists either.

And the likelihood of the Daily Mail sucking people in is laughable. That description is much more accurate of the Guardian.

What you are doing is just guilt be association. If you think Peter Hitchen's is a fascist present some evidence?

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 10 2018 20:22 utc | 103


Thanks. This is funny, it seems Peter Hitchens tries to settle with his book an old controversy of 1939.

Fact is as Anthony Sutton has documented - that the US - Wall Street - financed Hitler - and they very much financed him to wage war.

Further, the evidence presented below suggests that not only was an influential sector of American business aware of the nature of Naziism, but for its own purposes aided Naziism wherever possible (and profitable) -- with full knowledge that the probable outcome would be war involving Europe and the United States. As we shall see, the pleas of innocence do not accord with the facts.

It was not just United States bankers who supported Germany

But if the historians are right, these papers will go to the heart of the British financial establishment and raise questions about the allegiance of one of the most powerful figures of his day, former Governor of the Bank of England, Sir Montagu "Monty" Norman. Academics believe the archive will show that the Bank, led by Sir Monty, bent over backwards to help the Nazi war machine.


That, at least, is one explanation for Norman's behaviour in the years before the Second World War. There is another: that Norman was a German sympathiser, who wanted to ensure the German economy could fuel the country's war machine and that the Nazis had an outlet for their looted gold.
So what was the Governor up to? Scott Newton, lecturer in modern history at Cardiff University, says there is "nothing in the file to clear Montagu Norman of the American charge". He was rightly suspected, says Newton, of being involved in "an unsavoury peace deal behind the government's back. Bearing in mind the report came from the US President, it would have relied upon good intelligence."

Norman, says Newton, "was trying to prevent the war developing to the point where the Bank of England was in danger of losing the prestige it had built up between the wars. Norman had a view that the world ought to be run by central bankers. He was not in any sense a democrat and he was worried the war would undermine the contacts he had created." Churchill, says Newton, "could not stand him; he distrusted him enormously".

Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2018 20:41 utc | 104

ADCK @ 104
All you say on this comment I answered @ 100 I empathise with your shock and understand it. I'm just the messenger not the message, please don't shoot !

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 10 2018 20:43 utc | 105

@Mr B: to expand on your last point about Uyghur re-education, such a campaign would be against the radicalization/Arabization of the religion.
Coming from a Muslim majority country, it can be seen first-hand how followers of Islam have conflated the religion with Arabic culture, often diminishing their own rich heritage.
It starts with peer pressure by a minority, forcing others to fall in line with how to dress, behave and practise Islam that is far from its tenets as a religion of peace and the final word of Allah, peace be unto Him.
I would say the Uyghurs should keep their own rich culture alive; it is the radicalization of faith that is being fought against, where children can be raised from a young age that all non-Muslims are `kaffir'.
The challenge is to keep them on the path of moderation, and it will be a long one, given the determination of third parties to instigate and disinform.
And if China is chary of religion, it well has the right to be, given its role in the evisceration of society, especially in the 19th century.
Trader-missionary-gunboat, went the drill.
First came the guys who wanted to sell and buy stuff, then comes the missionary to disseminate His word.
After a comprador 5th column has been cultivated, comes the foreign gunboat.
Today, one can substitute ``human rights/democracy' as the `new religion', and the exploitation of the Uyghur issue falls between the two.
And, hey, believe it or not, Christianity is allowed too!
On the night train from Guangzhou to Shanghai, somewhere in the middle of the rolling plains somewhere, an epiphany strikes: the sight of the biggest Cross ever on a white church.
Or getting off the train at Yiwu - the Christmas capital of the world - the spires of a Gothic-style church soaring.
China allows and regulates its five recognized faiths, for sure;just too bad it doesn't please outsiders how they do it.
Oh,and at the person who can't even tell Qin which was more than two millennia ago when the Terracotta Warriors were created, from Qing, the dynasty that inspired Bertolucci's sublime Last Emperor, regretfully, the mendacity is on your part.

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Sep 10 2018 20:43 utc | 106

ah it is getting even better

From the above independent link

In fact, Norman knew all along who was the rightful owner of the gold. He had told a Whitehall committee on 22 March 1939 that he had received a call from the Governor of the Bank of France, on behalf of BIS, asking for the return of the gold. "We did absolutely nothing," says historian Scott Newton. "Here was Czechoslovakia that had been invaded, and here was Monty Norman approving the transfer of its gold to the Reichsbank."

Norman's agreement, says Newton, was no surprise. "Monty Norman and the leading merchant banks in the City were up to their necks in helping to prop up the German financial system. The Germans owed a lot of money to British banks."

The bankers did not want the Americans to emerge from the war with the upper hand, economically. Dr Neville Wylie, research fellow in Modern History at Cam- bridge University, says "there was a strain of German sympathy within the Bank and the City. The alternative - of dealing with the rampant capitalists across the Atlantic - did not appeal."

Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2018 20:45 utc | 107

juliania @99--

Thanks for that glimpse into your past. My parents lived in Southern California and had very good friends ripped from their homes and placed into concentration camps since they were of Japanese ancestry. I helped several older students from their generation write their own personalized histories/recollections of their state-side war experiences, some complete with photos. Very powerful for me as historian and for the current generation with whom their stories were shared.

As far as the degree of press freedom in USA during that time, I'm sorry to say it wasn't much better than now--particularly the Newsreels shown at movie theatres--very much a duplication of WW1's effort at information control.

As a rule, I usually refrain from getting involved in WW2 discussions here as they always degenerate into he said/she said gripe sessions just as this one has. Europe as the primary focus is very wrong, IMO, as hostilities began when Japan invaded China in 1931. Then the focus moved to Africa where Italy invaded Abyssinia in 1935 and finally into Spain in 1936. So, well before Germany invaded Poland in 1939 war was already raging on 3 continents, even more when we look at all conflicts from that time period. And as this source shows, conflicts were happening all over the world proving the 1930s to be a time of almost universal upheaval--something very rarely discussed in any venue.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2018 20:46 utc | 108

Mark @105

If you don't have a message maybe don't post!

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 10 2018 20:56 utc | 109

LittleWhiteCabbage @106--

Thanks for the reminder that Cultural Imperialism wasn't just a tool of the West.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2018 20:56 utc | 110

Peter Hitchens is a rare figure in journalism these days. He actually writes what he believes and because he has a lot of status and audience catchment his views are printed. He has repeatedly supported Russia and not only in its support of the Syrian government – on Crimea as well. He has changed his mind about Thatcherism and now sees the privatization of rail and utilities as a mistake. The only other similar figures in UK journalism are Peter Oborne (who paid the price for making a damning TV program about the Israeli lobby) and Seamus Milne – the real deal - who now works for Corbyn. I used to imagine Milne being confined to the Guardian basement and fed on bread and water.

As regards WWII it was already planned for at least two decades before it happened – Germany had not been smashed in WWI. Hence the impossible conditions of Versailles. Roosevelt was gung-ho for WWII and bullied Poland into confronting Germany. Now I wonder why he did that…

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 10 2018 20:59 utc | 111


Moscow Has Upped the Ante in Syria

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

.....The best way to assure Mr. Putin that you are in control of U.S. policy toward Syria would be for you to seek an early opportunity to speak out publicly, spelling out your intentions. If you wish wider war, Bolton has put you on the right path.

If you wish to cool things down, you may wish to consider what might be called a pre-emptive ceasefire. By that we mean a public commitment by the Presidents of the U.S. and Russia to strengthen procedures to preclude an open clash between U.S. and Russian armed forces. We believe that, in present circumstances, this kind of extraordinary step is now required to head off wider war.

Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 10 2018 21:11 utc | 112

Both Churchill and Hitler could not have gone to war on the scale that they did, if they had'nt been sure that they had the public support and backing. The process of acheveing that took several years. Slowly encourageing a sense of national pride and hatred of Jews de-humanising them in the eye of the public (dog whistle). For ten years in the uk our papers have done both! In ww2 it moved on to, the police looking the other way while mobs attacked jew's in the streets. This too we have seen in the last two weeks in Chemnitz Germany.except this time it's 'foreigners not Jews. At this stage it should be bloody obeveously which way this is going.
But who is pulling the strings ? They are the true enemy! Answer the 1%, the aristocracy. The billionaire club. All the rest will be just a dog fight started by them and Laughed at by them!!! Just like ww2!!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 10 2018 21:27 utc | 113

Hitler outlawed the contemporary economic system of international banking by having Germany issue its own currency. He wrongly believed that right of issuing money should lie in Government and NOT International bankers, Hitler foolishly believed that money should be issued it for the benefit of people, not bankers

After the world war 1, The International bankers were willing to offer Germany Loans on interest. But Hitler refused to accept the Debt of German people and instead issued Germany unique currency and this astounded the International bankers whose enmity was certain in order to save their aristocracy and more importantly their banking system.

It cannot be emphasized enough that Germany committed the unforgivable crime of issuing debt-free and interest-free money. The German government financed its entire regime WITHOUT gold, and without debt.

It took the entire Capitalist and Communist world to destroy this German revolution, and bring Europe back under the heel of the Bankers

Germans under Hitler had chosen not to abide by the laws of international bankers and financiers, and so they got what they deserved

Posted by: Moische | Sep 10 2018 21:30 utc | 114

Lochern @110

A number of years ago Peter Oborne was interviewed on one of the main British TV channels and he described what had really happened in Aleppo (this was a long time before the Syrian regime attacked and retook Aleppo) and was very careful in distinguishing Eastern Aleppo form the city as a whole. What Oborne said was incredibly authentic, was totally contrary to what had previously been reported on British MSM and was an absolute eye opener to me. Needless to say he was never asked back to give his opinion and has since completely disappeared from British TV.

People forget the price that journalists like Peter Oborne, Peter Hitchens, Neil Clark, John Pilger, etc. (journalists from the left & right) have paid by sticking to their journalistic principles. They deserve our respect.

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 10 2018 21:33 utc | 115

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 10, 2018 5:27:45 PM | 111

Both Churchill and Hitler could not have gone to war on the scale that they did, if they had'nt been sure that they had the public support and backing.

Hitler needed 5 years of dictatorship to do it. Britain's elite was largely pro fascist.

Only if Hitler turned out to be determined to destroy the state of Poland itself would the guarantee be operative, for it would prove that the Fuhrer's intent was not a "Grossdeutschland" but rather the domination of the European continent. Unlikely as the latter prospect had seemed to the rationally minded Chamberlain, it was this second option that Hitler chose.

A further reason for Chamberlain's decision to guarantee Poland was to counter the relentless campaign from Eden, Churchill, and the Labour Party for an alliance with Stalin. This has been seen as a lost opportunity, especially since the Soviets eventually rolled back Operation Barbarossa all the way to the Reichstag steps. Yet the Red Army did not look so impressive in early 1939. Stalin had purged its officer class. Its morale was said to be low, its organisation on the brink of collapse. Indeed, it was argued in the British Foreign Policy Committee on 27 March 1939 that the Polish Army was a better deterrent against Germany than the Red Army.

The last argument is a bit of a joke just counting people. Of course, Poland in those years was a right wing authoritarian state that had gone along with Germany in carving up Czechoslovakia.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2018 21:56 utc | 116

It is worth noting that among the famous 20 Points of Hitler’s National Socialist Party was the commitment to “break the bondage of interest.”

It is this that lies at the heart of the convulsive tremors that went through middle Europe in the twenties and thirties.

It was also the failure of that era to realize what forces were in play, unleashed by the first significant attempt to allow a nationalist state power to control its own wealth system.

In his monumental Military History of the Western World, J.F.C. Fuller, (the British Fascist, Major-General in the British Army, and respected military historian), writes:

“Among these artists of power were two men possessed of a new philosophy – Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler. They challenged the myth of Economic Man, the fundamental factor in Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism, and exalted in its stead the myth of the Heroic Man….

In Hitler’s eyes the aims of international Capitalism and Marxism were one and the same. Both, he said, repudiated ‘the aristocratic principle of Nature’; both were destroyers of quality, not of things but of life…. Unless this struggle between these two myths –

Economic Man and Heroic Man – is accepted and understood, the cataclysm which in 1939 submerged the world is almost incomprehensible and the age to which it gave birth little more than the plaything of chance.”

Aside from a natural gift for leadership, continues Fuller, “The demons that exalted him were the Treaty of Versailles, which bore no resemblance to Wilson’s Fourteen Points...

the invasion of the Ruhr by Poincare in 1923, which debauched the German currency and wiped out the German middle classes; the influx of £750m. in foreign loans between 1924 and 1930, which debauched the German people, and lastly the crash on the American stock exchange, which begat the world-wide monetary depression of 1929-31.

In 1930, 17,500,000 Germans were supported by the state, and in 1931 the Communist electorate in Germany rose to over five million. In that year the American journalist H.R. Knickerbockee... estimated that at least 15 million Germans were partially starving; that two-thirds of the voters were hostile to Capitalism, and more than half were hostile to the existing political system called democracy.

In the following year these calamities led to Hitler’s triumph... Save by those who witnessed it, the exultation of the masses on Hitler’s advent to power is unbelievable...

For going against the bankers and the economic system, Hitler had to be not only destroyed, he had to made into the most evil, demonized monster in the history of the world

And in case this comment is TL;DR, I will summarize it for you in one sentence: Hitler was pure evil, and for supporting him, and for trying to get out of the International banking system, millions of Germans deserved to die.

Posted by: Moische | Sep 10 2018 21:57 utc | 117

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 10, 2018 4:59:29 PM | 110

Hence the impossible conditions of Versailles.

Conditions of Versailles were only impossible for Germany's military caste. Other Germans did not mind. Hitler was imposed - with 40 percent of the vote - by this military caste.

Roosevelt was gung-ho for WWII and bullied Poland into confronting Germany.

Poland did not confront Germany. Germany (and the Soviet Union) attacked Poland.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2018 22:06 utc | 118

It has been a very instructive thread.

However, the hour is pregnant with sad news to come.

Humanity is in a bind because some believe that might is right and their cause
is right because they are the mightiest. Therefore it is like "le loup et l 'agneau"
a fable by Jean de la Fontaine that states" " la raison du plus fort est la meilleure"
( the argument of the strongest is the winning one.)

Some will remember having read about that American Newspaper Owner who must
be held responsible for starting the Spanish-American W through the fact that after
the USS MAINE's explosion in the Havana Bay his newspaper titled everyday:
"Remember the MAINE" along with some op-ed in favor of shastising these impertinent
Spaniards that "had treasonously sunk the MAINE".

William Randolph Hearst was the newspaper owner who must be credited with starting
that War. And today, the likes of him, say like Turner or Rupert Murdoch and others of the
same caliber are certainly roosting for a hot war, even if it only serves to revive failing
readership or audiences.

Of course in all this, the MIC, the bankers, and those that want total obedience and
submission to the whims and desires of who knows which bureaucrat et some CIA or
State Department desk wants to have some fun at the expense of others.

Take a President in hot waters that wants to save his skin and he will, very willingly,
ride with the wave that relentlessly pushes towards total domination of the
World lest he be crushed by the momentum of that avalanche. If he does not, he will be
labeled a TRAITOR, and deposed.

I am sorry to say, humanity is about to change i its way of life because escalation will
be quick.

Russia is armed to kill, not to contain.

Russia can pulverize the opposition, not wrestle with it and prevail. Therefore,
Nuclear war is on the horizon.

Many, many, will die. Some sooner, some later. But our civilization will become
extinct in short order. Only those very isolated tribes living away from civilization
will survive.

Sad things to come, indeed.

Posted by: CarlD | Sep 10 2018 22:12 utc | 119

Zinsknechtschaft. Took a while for it to become apparent, but it turns out the Nazis were on to something there. Of course Christians with their prohibition of usury were on to it centuries earlier.

Posted by: lysias | Sep 10 2018 22:18 utc | 120

Surely one of the most important aspects of history studies is to prevent us making the same mistakes over and over again (a def of madness) it is our historians that should step up to the plate! At this very late stage. And I warmly thank the ones here that do.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 10 2018 22:22 utc | 121

iraq... if i can just switch the topic for a minute.. i think it is important.. elijah magnier has a post up today that is worth the read.. karlof1 shared it on another thread here today.. here is an article from patrick cockburn from a few days ago that also gives an interesting background.. i wish the people of iraq well in all of this.. it is an interesting development as far as syria and iran are concerned and for that - the greater world with it's obsession on making war on syria/iran..

russia - on a different note - i see russia is calling for a special extraordinary un security session today as well...

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2018 22:50 utc | 122

There's pretty well been an honest account of WW11 be all participants in the last seventy years. Not much point going on about the firebombing of Dresden without acknowledging the London Blitz. Once precedents are set who knows where it goes from there?

It's kind of silly to downplay the British effort in the war. They stood alone for many moths and, before Hitler made the bonehead move of invading Russia, they faced the most effective military machine of its day. They fought Rommel in North Africa and fought the Japanese in the Pacific and took great losses eventually being removed from that theatre. Alongside them fought the Commonwealth countries from day one in 1939. In the Pacific Brits lost two capital ships and Singapore by not being up to date on modern warfare.

But there was the Battle of Britain and, just as crucial, the Battle of the Atlantic against the U-boat fleet that threatened to throttle to starve them out. After the US declaration of war in 1941 the Kriegsmarine enjoyed what they called the "happy days" picking off American shipping along the Atlantic Seaboard by the hundreds till the Brits tutored them the basics of convoys and turning off the fucking lights so that all their coastal traffic wasn't backlit by the cities.

Everybody knows that after Stalingrad and Kurst that the push west by the Soviets ensured the final destruction of Berlin. But don't, for the love of Christ, start yammering that the push by the allied armies from the west didn't play a major role.

Anyone who knows history would agree that the USSR did the heavy lifting in the the European part. In the Pacific it was the Americans who took care of business.

I'm Canadian and take pride in my country's contribution from Dieppe to D-day and all the way into Germany. We punched way above our weight and I have nothing but disdain for any ill-informed jerk-offs that downplay the effectiveness of Britain and her allies.

If it's atrocities and bad behavior that's got your thongs in knots, there's lots of guilt to go around. Even your precious Russians acted up once in a while.

Posted by: peter | Sep 10 2018 22:51 utc | 123

Posted by: Moische | Sep 10, 2018 5:57:49 PM | 115

Hitler - Hjalmar Schacht - turned Germany's economy into a war machine.

People did not pay interest because they did not get credit - that was reserved for war.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2018 22:56 utc | 124

Hitler lost the election for President to Hindenburg. His party later won the elections that gave then a minority in the Reichstag. They were able to form a majority coaltion that made Hitler Chancellor (prime Minister). He became President when Hildenberger died. The false flag Reichstag fire blamed on Communists and by association Jews) allowed the President to obtain dictatorial powers to fight the War on Communism (and Jews). These powers passed to Hitler.

The German people are no more to blame for Hitler than Americans are to blame for Bush, Trump and 9/11. Like the Germans, the majority of Americans voted for someone else and lost their freedom due to false flag attacks.

Could things have turned out differently for Germans and the world? Surely the Versailles Treaty was designed to ensure there would be another Great War but even with Hitler in power there was an opportunity to stop Hitler in his tracts with a treaty between UK, France, Romania, Poland and USSR. Poland blocked that as they hoped to side with Germany in a war with the USSR to claim territory in the east. The rest is history

Winston Churchill referred to Poland as the hyena of Europe, yet entered his country into a war against to save the hyena and declared victory with the hyena left in the arms of the Russian Bear and his Empire lost.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 10 2018 23:09 utc | 125

@ 117

Russia is armed to kill, not to contain.

Russia is armed to contain, not to kill. Please get sober before you post.

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 10 2018 23:10 utc | 126

Meant Hindenburg and not Hilderberger

Posted by: Pft | Sep 10 2018 23:10 utc | 127

The most explosive and brilliant book on the subject is Conjuring Hitler: How Britain and America Made the Third Reich by Guido Giacomo Preparata. Mr Preparata was fired from his job in academia so it must have some merit. If you hunt around you can get an internet copy of the book.

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 10 2018 23:16 utc | 128


The Caucasus wasn't the target of Barbarossa. It didn't become an objective until the second half of 1942. In 1940-41 Germany had sufficient oil imports from Romania and the Soviet Union to hold their own against the Brits. In 1941 the best "oil strategy" for Germany would have been to drive the Brits - who they could have overwhelmed with the forces deployed against the Soviet Union - out of the eastern Mediterranean and continue the desert war towards the Persian Gulf. They would have had political support from the locals. The Brits would have been screwed.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Sep 11 2018 0:10 utc | 129

Peter - 120
"Anyone who knows history would agree that the USSR did the heavy lifting in the the European part. In the Pacific it was the Americans who took care of business."

Sure, for the Pacific war. If we look at the whole Japanese side of the war, though, we have to acknowledge that, just like 3/4 of the Wehrmacht was busy fighting the Red Army, the bulk of Japanese army was busy fighting various Chinese factions and armies. Had Japan come to a settlement there, this would have freed a lot of troops that would have been able to go on the offensive towards India and would have been able to garrison in even bigger numbers the Pacific islands - I'm not sure they would've been able to invade more places in the Pacific, at least after Midway. Though one probably can't defend the whole Australian coastline, however big the defending navy.
When talking about the "Pacific" war, people have to understand that Chinese deaths made up the majority of deaths in the Eastern theatre, at an even higher proportion than Soviet deaths for the European theatre. Anyone thinking China has forgotten is making the same big and terrible mistake as people who thinks Russia has forgotten the Nazi onslaught.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 11 2018 0:16 utc | 130

Hats off to Mr. Hitchens. We tend to look at the outbreak of WWII with tunnel vision, depriving everything of context. IMO it was inevitable that war would break out no matter who was running things in Germany, largely because of the hegemonic Anglo-French objectives in eastern Europe. The map of eastern Europe drawn by the victors at the end of WWI was an abomination but it was preserved, in spite of the false promises to Germany under the Locarno Treaty, to further Anglo-French hegemony through their vassal states Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Romania. The principle of self-determination evidently didn't apply to German speakers. They even interfered, through the League of Nations, in pre-Nazi trade relations between Germany and Austria - a blatant violation of sovereignty.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Sep 11 2018 0:41 utc | 131

somebody @ 95

Thanks for the important post. Painful especially to read the outrages committed by the "Hitlerites" in Ukraine.

Posted by: daffyDuct | Sep 11 2018 0:46 utc | 132

Japan and Germany were defeated primarily due to lack of oil, but also due to American manufacturing capacity that allowed it to produce an extraordinary amount of weapons and ships in a short time. The Soviets may not have stopped Hitler without the US weapons and equipment sent to them

The outcome of the war against Japan was never really in doubt. If not for FDR's oil embargo it never would have happened, but FDR needed it to get support to enter the war against Germany. Both wars need not to have happened but there were forces who backed it to fulfill their agenda for a NWO .

Just goes to show evil and stupidity is not a 21st century invention. 70 million dead over China and Poland and both end up in Communist hands at the end. Anyone really believe that whopper?

Posted by: Pft | Sep 11 2018 1:17 utc | 133

@126 Yes but fortunately Hitler couldnt see the importance of occupying British Malta to secure trans-Med shipment to support Rommel's Afrika Korps, hence the gradual retreat West after (2nd) El Alamein. Had Egypt and the Suez fallen to the Werhmacht, the Empire would be in shambles. I'd rather not think about what would have happened to the Yishuv in Palestine..

Posted by: Lozion | Sep 11 2018 1:31 utc | 134

"California passed a landmark net neutrality bill, which now awaits Gov. Brown’s signature. ISPs are going all out for him to veto the law, but activists are keeping up the pressure"

Full article from TRNN:

We'll see what Brown does. Is he just another bought and paid for politician?

Posted by: ben | Sep 11 2018 1:53 utc | 135

Well, it appears Erdogan have switched sides, again. Erdogan called on the international community to take action to prevent an attack on Idlib

Posted by: Ian | Sep 11 2018 4:35 utc | 136

@ somebody 121

Do you imagine for one minute that the International Bankers would have allowed Germany to drop out of their economic system without a war?

When he visited Germany Charles Lindbergh remarked that their military seemed to be preparing for self-defense, not offense. At one time, (before the media started bombarding them 24/7 with anti-German propaganda), 95 percent of the American public was opposed to getting involved in a war against Germany

Hitler began his National credit program by devising a plan of public works. Projects earmarked for funding included flood control, repair of public buildings and private residences, and construction of new buildings, roads, bridges, canals, and port facilities.  The projected cost of the various programs was fixed at one billion units of the national currency.

One billion Non-inflationary bills of exchange, called Labor Treasury Certificates, were then issued against this cost. Millions of people were put to work on these projects, and the workers were paid with the Treasury Certificates. ”

The German government paid workers in Certificates. Workers spent those Certificates on other goods and services, thus creating more jobs for more people. In this way the German people climbed out of the crushing debt imposed on them by the international bankers.

Another great aspect of Hitler economic system was barter system. Germans successfully ran a B.C barter system in the 20th century and German foreign trade boosted enormously. The barter system CUT OUT the international bankers, and eliminated the exposure to trade deficit.

England was quite willing to lend money to buy raw materials but Germany insisted upon exchanging goods for goods.

“Germany will enter into no obligations to pay for her imports than she is capable of fulfilling. The German Government thus takes the standpoint of the respectable merchant who keeps his orders in harmony with his power to pay” (Hitler)

These all systems were all ALARMING to the world monopolists. Germany emerging as a new economic power whose influence was spreading rapidly across the countries, which meant the popularity of its system could free the world from the shackles of debt and its ever increasing curse.

Nations could get this recipe of Prosperity without debt and loans. This certainly would endanger the International Banking system.

So for the survival of their International banking system, Hitler’s barter system had to be destroyed and of course they succeeded in this.

In the West we have learned 100 percent of EVERYTHING we “know” about World War 2 through the history as written by the victors, and the real victors of World War II were International Bankers, so they’re the ones who wrote the history of WWII that all of us have memorized by heart since childhood

Do you think International bankers want there ever to be even a remote chance of anything like Germany’s revolution ever happening again, and threatening their control?

Of course not, this is why Qaddafi also had to be taken out. The Libyan people were doing too well under Qaddafi. They had to be destroyed as an example to the world. Now look at the horrible state that Libya is in, and this is exactly the way that the bankers want it.

Hitler was against the communist and capitalistic banking system. He was abominated for this audacious crime.

To me Hitler was not a hero but his economic regime was definitely heroic

Posted by: Moische | Sep 11 2018 4:59 utc | 137

Serena is synonymous with her racket. That racket she smashed at the U.S. Open was her reputation. She's a sore loser who has no class and even when she finally noticed how hurt Osaka felt when the crowd was booing, Serena was manipulative in the sympathy gesture that was more about her and restoring her image after the awful display of poor sportsmanship and less about Osaka. She robbed that poor girl of her moment of hard-earned glory, and the spotlight behaving like the ugly American knowing full well that she could manipulate the entire stadium in her favor with mostly Americans there. Poor Osaka in tears felt so bad she even apologized for winning and disappointing everyone there. Serena just doesn't know how to exit the game with grace. The much younger Osaka could school her in grace and humility. It was a pathetic display which Williams tried to cover with a message of gender discrimination. What a lousy ambassador for gender equality!

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 5:54 utc | 138

US senator claims Britain's MI6 is planning a fake chemical weapons attack on Syria

Virginia state senator Richard Black turned up on Arab TV last week making an extraordinary claim about one of the US’ closest allies.
Mr Black said Britain’s M16 intelligence service was planning a chemical weapons attack on the Syrian people, which it would then blame on Mr Assad.

Jake Rubenstein, spokesman for the Democratic Party of Virginia, called Mr Black’s comments “a disturbing new low”.

Posted by: Aras | Sep 11 2018 6:23 utc | 139

Interesting POV Moische but how do you explain the BIS which was owned by the leading central banks supporting Hitler as they did. In those days foreign trade had to be settled in gold backed currency. The barter system was limited to Soviets and Italy.

Hitler cancelled reparations which was accepted by the international bankers without much of a fight. Trade continued.

Hitlers domestic economy could be run with debt free fiat currency but credit and debt still existed under government control and interest was charged on loans

Once the war started BIS cooperated by transferring looted gold to Germanys account used to settle trades in acceptable foreign exchange with their trading partners. Thats why they are called Hitlers Banker and they control the worlds central banks today

Posted by: Pft | Sep 11 2018 6:29 utc | 140

@ Pft 137

In order to respond to the points you raised, I'd need to know more about the sources behind your comment (Are these established facts that have been proven beyond any possibility of doubt, or do they come from mainstream, orthodox historians (winners write history) who might have a financial (or other) incentive to support the official narrative of WWII?

Kind of like CNN/WaPo/NYTimes/NPR etc give us today's official narrative

At the moment I'm reading E. Michael Jones fascinating book “Barren Metal: A History of Capitalism as the Conflict between Labor and Usury”

And he raises LOTS of questions about the official version of WWII

"Banking is magic that works" (p. 128)

Or a competing phrase for summing up Barren Metal could be:

"Capitalism is state-sponsored usury"

From the fall of Rome, the Catholic ban on usury was enforced because the Church treated economics "as if God mattered"

According to this doctrine, God gave men faith and reason to pursue success in this life, but as the Middle Ages gave way to succeeding eras, God began to matter less and less, and “bankers” moved in to fill the void.

Jones’ lengthy description of this epic transformation is fascinating, allowing him to once again show the incredible breadth of his knowledge.

The flip side of this unhealthy usurious equation is one that abides by the moral law and puts labor above other economic systems, for "there is only one use that will turn credit into wealth, and that is the application of labor"

Also, it’s important to note that although Jones has been accused of anti-semitism, he makes it very clear that his views are MILITANTLY aracial, by which I mean he is insistent that race is NOT a factor in the struggle between “bankers” and the rest of humanity.

Posted by: Moische | Sep 11 2018 7:18 utc | 141

Having gone through a bad resection,the German public choose a strong leader, why would'nt they ! Hitler then convinced them they were the master race. The public believed him and with his encouragement the mass public had the mind set that Jews were pulluting the race and national identity . The comparison from then to now is clear. It started in Britain it was a deliberate Tory policy borrowed from Hitler.tell a lie make it big one and keep repeating it. For a year or to the uk public were bombarded with media coverage about imagrants, it was just back ground one cared. At the same time the torys relaxed border control creating the problem the Tory press were rattling on about. Same Hitler trick different country different group of victem scape goats. And by the way it distracted from the banking crises.
Moving along America followed the uk path becouse it worked, never mind that it was a facist concept. Ignoring the disasterous outcome last time. Alt right, proud boys, make America great again, the exceptional us slowly dehumanising 'the foreigner ! Da jah voue ( prob mis-spelled)

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 11 2018 7:48 utc | 142

# Circe - 135
Actually, what I found ironical is that Serena Williams was behaving pretty much like one would expect Trump to behave in a similar situation.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 11 2018 8:15 utc | 143

US in talks with UK, France for ‘much stronger’ attack on Syria: Bolton

Meanwhile some people here say that Assad is winning and that Russia is helping Syria against US/Nato..

Posted by: Zanon | Sep 11 2018 9:35 utc | 144

With the present day, having watched Britain and then America become nazi/ facist country's in all but name. With Eurapians imagration problem created by the west. While we slept ! The facist'a have spread like a cancer ! Poland, Hungary, Germany, France, Italy. Spain. Let's form a mob in the street and attack enyone who looks like a foreigner. The police will look the other way And let's go round in big gangs encase we get attacked for looking like a foreigner !!!
Do we really want to live in that world ? In our city, our children the victem. With fore-site where would that end how far would it escalate ? The finale salution? And of course that will be some one else not me or you. Bit like car crashes always happen to someone else don't they !

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 11 2018 10:20 utc | 145

Since this is an open thread ; News from Syria/Rus MoD. Filming by "rebels" of a supposed gas attack has been started. Expect MSM to start talking about it in time for "news prime time"?

Posted by: stonebird | Sep 11 2018 11:40 utc | 146


Fair enough question. As you know, much of the history of this period has been censored. I might ask the same of your claims. That said I believe if you read the Tower of Basel you will have a starting point for further research.

Thanks for your referral on Jones. I do believe the current economic mess can be traced to the reformation and weakening of the catholic church influence. I look forward to reading what he has to say.Maybe I will come to a different view after reading him

Posted by: Pft | Sep 11 2018 11:41 utc | 147

Apart from the usual transatlanticist suspects within Merkel's party (and even they rather reluctantly speaking of "might(should be thought of"), after a leak within the Merkel-supporting Springer press, about ongoing planning within German defense ministry regarding possible participation of German aircraft (IF there still are some operating) in an attack on Syria, the majority of parties in Bundestag including neoliberal Social Democrats SPD (as a part of Merkel's government coalition) strictly refused to ever vote for participation. So Merkel herself not even had to speak out. German defense minister Mrs von der Leyen (who is said to be Merksl's nominee as successor of Stoltenberg as NATO's general secretary) during the April action of FUKUS had used as an excuse for not being part of the attackers that "nobody had asked". Well, this time the US did ask and now know the answer. Btw, von der Leyen is prominent in the transatlanticist German network and over a certain period was a Merkel rival and candidate for replacing her. Do I have to mention that Germans ever have been und still are strongly opposed to ANY involvement of Bundeswehr except in national defense. Moreover, there is an official assessment of the "scientific service of the Bundestag" saying that Western actions in Syria (including the German engagement with reconnaissance units) is against international law and German Grundgesetz (constitution).
Looks like the Germans at THIS front at least, this time, will be missing.

Posted by: franziska | Sep 11 2018 11:55 utc | 148


So germany will be missing. What does that mean? Nothing. They are not needed for one thing. Will they impose sanctions on those who are not missing? No! Business as usual. Staying on the sidelines does not mean one is not an accomplice. I apologize if I missed your point.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 11 2018 12:14 utc | 149

145, 146 Germany's options are limited due to the reunification treaty involving Russia.
Does not mean they might forget about that, I just think they find it convenient that there are legalities restraining them.
It means something for Europe's minus Britain's relationship with Russia.
I don't think the US are interested in "defending Europe against Russia" any more. But maybe I am wrong and it is just a shakedown strategy versus Europe. Trump's side certainly is as interested in splitting Europe as is Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 11 2018 12:36 utc | 150


Football fans are much worse; with their drunken brawls. However, the audience reaction is a shock, as tennis fans are much more civilized. Times sure have changed.

Posted by: Ian | Sep 11 2018 12:49 utc | 151

Pft 146 Let's say it was some gossip just for the record. Meanwhile, Sputnik and RT are reporting that the show has begun:
I wonder if there are Russian drones live shooting the live shooting of the fake scene, and if such footage anywhere in the West would be accepted as evidence.

Posted by: franziska | Sep 11 2018 12:53 utc | 152

Oh Lordie! So I must address the Serena kerfuffle again. An Australian cartoonist just breathed more oxygen into Serena's giant tantrum by resorting to borderline racial tropes that just turned Serena into the heroine for victms of racism everywhere and that's a pity because it really undermined the truth in his accurate depiction of an 170 millionairesse having a fit of extreme rage on an international stage. Serena with her gigantic ego is but the female equivalent of Trump. She's very manipulative, knows how to play the crowd, distracts to cover her gaping flaws, uses the media to inflate her victimhhod exponentially, and is mistakenly allowed to get away with it all just like Trump. This is American hubris i.e. ugly Americanism on full display, but no, the bad behavior is swept under the rug and the dumb mass is distracted with the fake shiny object of victimhood.

I'll post the cartoon of a 170 milion-dollar baby who's head is expl...øding over a loss of a few more millions and her decline.

Herald cartoon

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 13:09 utc | 153


I promise; I just read your comment after posting mine. I'm so glad that you too made that connection because it's so true!

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 13:17 utc | 154

@108. ADKC. Most, scratch that all, of M2's posts are like this one, they add nothing, unfortunately. Most of them consist of unintelligible MSM talking points, or boy who cried wolf garbage. The fascist are coming the fascist are coming....In a strange way I, and possibly we should be/am thankful for as; when M2 is gone global intelligence rises. You can't reason with it. S/he claims to want debate, then tells you your wrong and runs away. Sarcasm is lost on it. It reminds me of an old joke.

Full set of encyclopedia Britannica for sale, just got married, wife knows everything.

Apologies for the add nothing post...... at least it's an open thread.

Moische......extremely fascinating take on Hitler's rise, can you provide links to further sources/reading that support your contention that Hitler was in a battle with private finance, or as MAO's samba connoisseur calls it the god of mammon.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Sep 11 2018 13:27 utc | 155


When I assess that Russia is armed to kill, not to contain I mean, and
please correct me if I am wrong, that by itself and by way of
conventional weapons and judging by the size and number of personnel
and machinery, Russia could not resist a full assault by NATO members
if they all participate. It would be out gunned and out manned, at least
at the beginning.

However, via nuclear means, Russia can obliterate its enemies even if at the
cost of nuclear winter.

Therefore, one must fear that in order to survive, as President Putin himself
stated it, Russia will use the nuclear option.

Posted by: CarlD | Sep 11 2018 13:29 utc | 156

Sorry, @140 not 180 and I referred to the comment I just posted at 150 where I made the same Tump connection. It's uncanny how similar they are. Must be the narcissism they share.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 13:34 utc | 157


Times have changed not just in tennis. Increasingly devious bad behavior is excused and I would even say even glorified in sports and everywhere else. Look how long it took for Americans to admit Armstrong, cancer survivor cycling hero, was cheating. There too the ego-worship and American public's denial of the truth was nauseating. What about the American student who probably got away with murder in Italy and was so portrayed as the victim of European justice? Even when kissing her boyfriend while the coroner took the real victim out in a body bag they were making excuses with her psychological state. Awh,poor was her way of cleansing/releasing the stress of the whole tragedy!There's also the basketball players who got away with a spree of theft and vandalism in Asia and hardly suffered any accountability.

Devious bad behavior is tolerated everywhere now and narcissism viewed as strength when it's only making society more and more ignorant, insensitive and intolerable. Humility and honor have become weaknesses and the truth a necessary casualty.

I would say Americans are the worst offenders, but the trend they're setting is becoming rampant and it's degrading society everywhere. Kids are emulating it. That's why it needs to be called out for what it really is, depraved; wherever, whenever, so it doesn't become the acceptable normal and the excusable new hip normal for kids.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 14:57 utc | 158

You're right but how does one go about disciplining Serena? Anything anyone says will be considered racist and/or sexist.

Posted by: dh | Sep 11 2018 15:05 utc | 159

Ian @133: ... it appears Erdogan have switched sides, again.

Some of us have been skeptical about what side he's on for a long time.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 11 2018 15:14 utc | 160

dh: You're right but how does one go about disciplining Serena?

'A'-list celebrities are demi-gods - until they self-destruct. Musk and Serena may have just done that.

Even if Serena's complaint had merit, her rant was abusive. But for many lefty's (those who know tennis, anyway) it is only CLEAR that she was abusive because the umpire's rulings were correct.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 11 2018 15:36 utc | 161

@ 80 - Sep 10, 2018 8:52:52 AM

Dear sir / Jay, Hitchens message is stated in the clearest
possible manner and has the ring of sincerity.
Something your comment lacks.
No, there is no Brit-bashing, not more
than strictly necessary.
And sorry, although he is a bit of a snob
he does not do racism.
Anything else you need help with?

Posted by: Mishko | Sep 11 2018 15:58 utc | 162


It's not easy to call out a complete narcissist. They're highly manipulative in turning the tables and making themselves the victim leaving the righteous accuser or critic holding the bag. It takes skill and gravitas not to fall into their trap but they should especially not be allowed to slither behind legitimate causes to excuse their nasty behaviour and then be glorified as a brave champion of the oppressed. Mostly it's how they twist the truth and get away with it that's scary. They'll inflate the minutest legitimacy to make their accuser appear like the ogre and so emerge vindicated by society. Imo that's a form of bullying. Again, it takes skill to expose them.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 11 2018 16:06 utc | 163

Hitler dearly wanted an alliance with Britain (see Mein Kampf) and did not want its Empire destroyed, as that would mean other countries seizing different parts of it. When he first took over, Churchill wavered over whether to do a deal with Hitler, urged on by Tory appeasers in his Cabinet. They were cancelled out by Labour Party non-appeasers and Churchill re-discovered his backbone. Some interesting, myth-exploding letters on these matters in the Fraudian recently:

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Sep 11 2018 16:07 utc | 164

The famous American poet Ezra Pound was convicted of treason because he believed that World War Two had been started by International Bankers to further their own ends of world domination and he tried to warn the American public in radio broadcasts from Italy

To punish him for this, after the war he was kept for thirteen years in a lunatic asylum in a hideous, urine-soaked cell, originally in solitary confinement and forced to wear a straitjacket.

In other words, a great writer was punished by the US government and confined in a madhouse, solely for his political views.

Posted by: anon | Sep 11 2018 16:10 utc | 165

Thank you Aras/kgw.

The real acronym of Britain's inteligence service is M.I.6 by the way and it stands for Military Inteligence department no #6 and I believe they answer to their Navy. not M16 as you posted. M16 is a military rifle of the US army, with not much stoping power probably designed having in mind future skirmishes against civilian and guerila poppulations, which they obviously later they actually carried out at the whole world.

Between 1974 and the eighties a team of 7 people with Austrian passports was apprehanded from local police authorities of Pella for spying and other suspicius activities. They found they carried very specialised photographic equipment and it was sure they had connections with particle research and possibly radioactive material research. All were indeed mixed German/Austrians.

Photos confiscated from them displayed structures and possible equipment that were hidden deep underground and were emmiting a blue aura, possibly some type of Cherenkov radiation. The place they photographed according to them was a hikers station, on top of mountain Olympus near one of its many tops called Stefania. This one is special because of its strange shape andthe enormous ammounts of thunderstrikes it can atttact on a hole year. It also ends in a deep ravine that is enclosed on all sides and most times is covered with fog like a stewing cauldron. It is also called "Caudlron's" thesis (spot) from the local. The locals saying that there Zeus used to hide his thunders by which he was always ready to strike down.

What is known so far. The main "system" is comprised of an antena type structure several feet tall. It is enclosed in a type of dome possibly carved out of the mountain rock. It is a tall pointy structure that has attached other antena type equipment circular and triangular in geometry. It has 5 or 7 like them on it, each located one below the other attached on the main mast. The main system other times is completely invisible nothing can be detected not even the dome made of plain rock. Sometimes it can be "excited" by the introduction of any mechanical aparratuses in the near vicinity. Nobody understands 's purpose and it's working range or what it exists for, neither who put it there initially, nor it's "detection" ranges and what it is exactly detecting. Yet one thing was made certain, it especially "hates" fast moving parts like helicopter blades/rotor equipment.

On another occasion the military had to be called in to rescue one pilot and a passenger that claimed to be a tourist from Bulgaria, trying to take pictures from above close to the certain spot. The vehicle droped in a steep angle not very far from the ground, because all electrical equipment stoped working. Both n it were notmajorly injured. The military too arrived by a helicopter in order to remove the equipment and the injured. The area unnoficially is no fly zone due to problems in navigation, false radar come back or loss of equipment function etc. The military knew a safe aproach path. Though until they removed everything and after several trips landed in completing the mission, everyone on the teams were aware of "disturbance" you can detect with the periphery of the vision and a certain feeling of something being there, although normal senses say otherwise. The whole operation was filmed and they discovered the whole time metalic type of machinery was buzzing around in circles very fast almost out of the human visual range capacity to detect. For instance a dog would recognize the presence but thd dogs have a much higher throughoutput connecting their brains with their eyes, and can record much more ammounts of information than the human eye/brain system can. These apparatuses followed them from and back until they finally landed at their airport completing the task. So it is a part of technology that can work near the edge of our human perception, it is if as whoever designed it might be able to perceive reality much better than us and can someway "hack" its way around our senses, and maybe even equipment.

WWII happend for exactly this type of technology to be acquired. Although since that seemed impossible, the primary goal became to acquire much knowledge in order to build another system that could beat that specific system, which it seems it is global in it's presence. This system stands there unknown for who built it and its uses, but evidence suggests it is there for countering very advance military technology being used globally. Maybe someone needs to beat that system in order for Globalisation to work...whatever nefarious purposes this Globalisation will try to achieve on our planet.

Posted by: Greece | Sep 11 2018 16:26 utc | 166

And, in the lead up to WWII, the French novelist Louis Ferdinand Céline (considered by many to be the greatest writer of the 20th century) predicted - correctly - that his bamboozled French countrymen would choose the path of mass fratricide:

"Frenchmen, you'll go off to war at the moment chosen by M. le Baron de Rothschild, your lord and absolute master, at the hour fixed, in full accord with his sovereign cousins in London, New York and Moscow."

In 1945 he, his wife and their cat, Bebert, jumped aboard the last Swedish Red Cross train out of Berlin and found haven in Denmark, where he was jailed on death row for several months and nearly died from ill treatment.

The French government sentenced him to death in absentia, but when he returned to France in 1950 to face trial, the courtroom spectators laughed uproariously as the prosecutor read passages from Céline's delirious, anti-semitic polemics.

He was acquitted.

Posted by: anon | Sep 11 2018 16:29 utc | 167

Circe @165


Posted by: spudski | Sep 11 2018 16:43 utc | 168

Moische @115 - Great comment.

Posted by: SlapHappy | Sep 11 2018 16:43 utc | 169

@ 135

I think it safe to assume there to be an element of 'roid-rage
in Serena's temper. I am sure of it.

Posted by: Mishko | Sep 11 2018 16:44 utc | 170

@140 circe

Good comment. Couldn't agree more. She tried to manipulate the two referees she called for too. She had tears in her eyes pleading to the female one and then switched her tone when talking to the male one and bringing up her protected woman status.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Sep 11 2018 17:00 utc | 171

@116/139 Moische.. fascinating posts.. thanks... are you getting this from the e. michael jones books?

ditto @157 Tannenhousers comments...

@162 jackrabbit/@133 ian.... what erdogan says for public consumption and what he says when talking with russia/iran can be 2 different things... in fact, this might have been worked out and accepted as to what erdogan would say publicly... now, i realize this is a complicated way to decipher it all, but i think it is important to consider this option as well.. erdogan needs to say he is not on side with the same people he had hoped would bring regime change in syria... as always - lets see what happens on the ground..

Posted by: james | Sep 11 2018 17:18 utc | 172

Nemesiscalling @173

Great observation!

Posted by: spudski | Sep 11 2018 18:54 utc | 173

@ 174 James

Thanks, and yes, those comments were either paraphrasing from notes I’ve taken while reading Barren Metal, or direct quotes from the book, which I tried to put in quotation marks

And here’s one more, from page 909 of E. Michael Jones’ Barren Metal:

Having looked at many instances of usury in the Western world, Jones argues that:

“ the fundamental economic fact in the liberal state, and all political arrangements must deal with the unbridgeable chasm it creates.

The creditor, who is on the positive side of usury, will prosper; the debtor who is on the negative side of the usurious equation, will sink into unrepayable debt and penury” (909)

Posted by: Moische | Sep 11 2018 19:27 utc | 174

Cool! Michael Hudson on Keiser Report talking about his upcoming book about the origins of debt and its cancellation, which begins at the 12:00 mark. Admittedly, 13 minutes isn't much time to provide a synopsis and commentary on related contemporary events, but Dr Hudson tries his best. I know many barflies are interested in this subject, but I decided against posting this on the current Syria thread, as it's clearly OT.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2018 20:34 utc | 175

17 years after the fact, Ron Unz of Unz Review has an article claiming "9/11 was an Israeli Job: How America was conned into World War IV" by Laurent Guyénot (of Voltaire Network), Engineer (National School of Advanced Technology)

Many interesting comments in response to the article, however I won't link to it, because I'm not sure if that's okay here

Posted by: anon | Sep 11 2018 20:41 utc | 176

@178 karlof1

I understand that feeling of catching the wave happening now, but as it happens - or perhaps, happened? - I'm still catching up with this one. So thanks for the link!

By the way, have you noticed the reference to "Barren Metal" by E. Michael Jones, posted at #143 by commenter Moische, who most recently appears at #177? I was on board as soon as I read the sub-title of the book "A History of Capitalism as the Conflict between Labor and Usury".

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 11 2018 21:22 utc | 177

@179 anon

Yes, a very important article. Let's find out if Unz triggers moderation in Typepad:

9/11 Was an Israeli Job: How America was neoconned into World War IV

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 11 2018 21:29 utc | 178

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 11, 2018 5:22:00 PM | 180

Yep. I remember the time when I was looking for a book on a German left wing perspective on Ireland and ended up with a lot of fascist literature.
Fascism was designed as an imitation of left wing emotions and theories, where the left used capitalistm as the enemy they replaced the word with Jews.
Usury is code for Jews.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 11 2018 21:34 utc | 179

@179 anon

I just posted the link to that article and it seems to have gone to moderation. I hate to put more work on b but apparently the Unz Review is non grata with Typepad.

The article is important for demonstrating its main premise: that the meme, "9/11 was an inside job", is actually a spectacular propaganda accomplishment by the true perpetrators.

The US government is caught in a supremely elegant trap. If it begins to accede to the truth of 9/11, the populace has long been conditioned to believe it was the domestic power, the Deep State (by whatever name), that did the deed. This blame successfully deflects from the concept that an outside nation did it. Caught in this dilemma, the US has no choice but to continue with the lie that the box-cutter crew did it.

I continue to be amazed at how well I have been played all my life and to this day.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 11 2018 21:38 utc | 180

anon @179--

It's okay here. I'll point-out that this isn't the only 911 article published by Unz. Its thesis isn't remarkable. The author's extremely naïve by saying:

"There is something monstrous in the idea that a government can deceive and terrorize its own citizens by killing thousands of them, just for starting a series of wars that are not even in the nation’s interest."

But the Outlaw US Empire has planned and done those very things and attacked nations having nothing to do with "the nation's interest."

The author denounces those who subscribe to the "Insider Attack" thesis, saying it doesn't go deep enough because it's "controlled opposition." I disagree and have always said the actors resided within and without the US government as that's where the evidence points. IMO, it's more than enough to know 911 was Operation Northwoods updated, okayed and executed, that its perpetrators are still amongst us and running the Outlaw US Empire; and that the motives were to cover massive corruption to the tune of trillions of dollars, for personal gain, and to launch a series of wars to facilitate Full Spectrum Domination and the creation of Greater Israel. Don't get me wrong; I want to see all involved stripped of their wealth and suffer a painful death. But after 17 years, I'll settle for a public revolt that takes back the USA from corporate control so its governing institutions can be remade and its socio-economic order leveled.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2018 21:40 utc | 181

@181 somebody - "Usury is code for Jews."

If that's true, then it's very unfortunate. It would be much better if Usury were simply code for Usury.

Then we could fight the true enemy.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 11 2018 21:44 utc | 182

Grieved @182--

I posted the link too, plus my own commentary. I thought the article worthy but incomplete. My 911 thesis is inside/outside job, which is essentially what the author advocates.

Hudson's work ought to show beyond doubt that the concept of usury long predated Hebrews and is against Judaic Law. I'm working on using Hudson's and his Yale group's revelations in a political tract, but it's just now in the planning stage. How debt's been used as control is one of humanity's longest standing BigLies and must be exposed like the vampire to sunlight.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2018 21:55 utc | 183

In addition to Laurent Guyénot's article at Unz Review, I also looked at Edward Curtain's, which I also recommend. His essay nicely dovetails with Caitlin Johnstone's recent essay about controlling the narrative to further ensure manufacturing consent. I completely endorse his conclusion:

"I have concluded – and this is impossible to prove definitively because of the nature of such propagandistic techniques – that the use of all these words/numbers is part of a highly sophisticated linguistic mind-control campaign waged to create a narrative that has lodged in the minds of hundreds of millions of people and is very hard to dislodge."

But how are we to use those fine essays to regain control for reading and sharing them isn't enough. During the 1960-70s, the slogan was Feed Your Mind/Head/Brain; but now it's so well-fed it's becoming obese. Exercise/action is always given as the one sure remedy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2018 22:53 utc | 184

Ken Starr of Clinton Impeachment fame has finally written about that time, and is likely a far more important book than Woodward's given the fact that WJC's crimes affect us all today.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2018 23:22 utc | 185

@177 Moische.. thanks back at ya! you might find the book that michael hudson is coming out with of similar interest.. see @178 karlof1 link for more info.. it is in a very similar vein as i understand it..

@181 somebody / 183 grieved.. i agree with grieved.. usury is usury and it is indeed what needs to be done away with...

Posted by: james | Sep 11 2018 23:30 utc | 186

This article on Schacht comments at the Nuremberg trials is interesting given the Nazi economics discussion.

Barren Metal sounds like an interesting book. At 70 bucks plus international shipping and no kindle I probably wont get it though.

The author is editor and author of a magazine at this link in case you wish to sample his work

Catholics were anti-usury although reformation and Calvinism ended that prohibition in Euorpe. Islamic banks do eliminate usury although there is a way to profit from loans without usury such as fixed price over and above the loan or profit sharing in business loans

Interesting that Ron Unz kind of hesitant to blame insiders on 911. Guess I cant blame him.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 12 2018 0:33 utc | 187


Ken Starr And the hearings on whether the 42nd president's receiving oral sex from White House intern Monica Lewinsky counted as "sexual intercourse" was perhaps the most embarrassing thing ever for the US and proved to the elite behind it that they can do anything, and they have pretty much done every evil imaginable since

Clinton was punished for not going for the false flags of TWA 800 and OKC bombing and not pursuing the War on
Terror earlier . To make amends he was forced to give them a war in Yugoslavia as a result of the Monica hearings and was aquitted . The NATO war followed almost immediately. In some sense I guess we can blame 9-11 on Clinton

Posted by: Pft | Sep 12 2018 0:53 utc | 188

@185 Juan

Stunning. And so true. Thank you.

One comment at YouTube says it all about the message of Pound's poem: "This world is first and foremost ruined by the bankers. The other worries are a sideshow."

And the poem's homage to the art and works that come from the generosity of humans who wish most of all simply to express and create, with no regard for compensation. What an inhuman thing they did to him.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 12 2018 1:22 utc | 189

Posted by: james | Sep 11, 2018 7:30:39 PM | 188

You mean the money I save for my pension will be paid out to me in today's prices when I am old? All the time people used it to make profit with?

Posted by: Pft | Sep 11, 2018 8:33:15 PM | 189
It was a guy called Jakob Fugger who ended it and he was a Catholic banker.

Fugger changed the world in profound ways. For instance, charging interest on loans, or usury, had long been considered a sin. Fugger was responsible for changing this, as to further his business, he “wanted the church to expressly legalize interest.”

He conducted a full-on public relations campaign, including setting up debates on the issue, and wrote an impassioned letter to Pope Leo. As a result, Leo issued a decree proclaiming that charging interest was usury only if the loan was made “without labor, cost or risk” — which no loan ever really was.

“Leo’s decree was a breakthrough for capitalism,” Steinmetz writes. “Debt financing accelerated. The modern economy was under way.”

When Turkey invaded Hungary in 1514, Fugger was gravely concerned about the value of his Hungarian copper mines, his most profitable properties. After diplomatic efforts failed, Fugger “gave Maximilian an ultimatum — either strike a deal with Hungary or forget about more loans. The threat worked.”

Maximilian negotiated a marriage alliance that left Hungary in Habsburg hands, leading to “redrawing the map of Europe by creating the giant political tinderbox known as the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Fugger needed a Habsburg seizure of Hungary to protect his holdings.”

“The Habsburg triumph was equally Fugger’s triumph,” writes Steinmetz. “His efforts had united two kingdoms and stiffened the front lines of Christendom against the Turks.”

Sounds quite modern. But the concept is very old. Ancient.

Around the time of Hammurabi, in the 18th century BC, the priests allowed people to take loans. Old Babylonian temples made numerous loans to poor and entrepreneurs in need. Among many other things, the Code of Hammurabi recorded interest-bearing loans

Posted by: somebody | Sep 12 2018 1:46 utc | 190

@ Pft 189


There's a fascinating anecdote near the end of the second link you provided on Jones’ Barren Metal: A History of Capitalism as the Conflict between Labor and Usury....

On one of his walks through Paris, Honore de Balzac, the French novelist, encountered the richest man in France strolling arm in arm with Heinrich Heine, the revolutionary who did his best to overthrow Capitalism during the Revolution of 1848.

Viewed from a political or an economic perspective the two men should have been on opposite sides of the revolutionary barricades, but Balzac was smart enough to see...

(and I’ll leave it there, to stay on the safe side, but for anyone interested in the rest of the story, the link is below)

In the next paragraph, Jones points out that the New York banker Jacob Schiff funded the Bolsheviks, and that David Rubenstein, co-founder of the Carlyle Group, funds the American Enterprise Institute which paid for...(drumroll here)....Michael Novak’s pro-capitalist screed that has corrupted the mind of every single American bishop….

Posted by: Juan | Sep 12 2018 4:36 utc | 191

@ Grieved 191

“What an inhuman thing they did to him”

Yes, Pound was first caged in a “death cell” for his war-time affiliations, then put into a urine-soaked cell in a mental hospital for 13 years, next driven out of the country...

But it didn’t end there, the punishment has continued... he’s been defamed and degraded and now his demonization is almost complete.

This is how a genius and his worldview gets annihilated from the cultural memory of his people

For future artists and writers the message is clear: never oppose the bankers or you’ll end up like Ezra Pound

Posted by: Juan | Sep 12 2018 5:14 utc | 192

Jackrabbit @ 58

No US aircraft carriers in theater.


Comments? Thoughts?

Posted by: pogohere | Sep 12 2018 5:27 utc | 193

@192 somebody... well, that would be the end result, lol..

Posted by: james | Sep 12 2018 5:33 utc | 194

@ 167

I particularly like Pound's Canto XLV:

'With usura'

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Sep 12 2018 5:56 utc | 195

I really hope that some of the regular commenters here pay more attention to their sources of hard news than they do to the identities of some posters they interact with. There is one bridge dweller in particular here, one who screwed up last week's open thread who specializes in running two nyms at once all the better to sow seeds of dissension with pretend discussions with him/herself. This week he/she has been more amenable since the short shrift copped last week. That persona is strictly temporary and the derp will revert to her old ways once he/she feels the posse of the too credulous is sufficient to cause havoc.
A mob of the credulous have been well hooked who will doubtless run to this creep's defense and cause all sorts of ructions when this low life does as he/she always does, and posts crude racist stereotypes conflating all jews with zionism while screeching about the rothschilds international jewish conspiracies and the slug-like brenda of buckingham palace being a lizard in disguise.
It doesn't matter whether this type is an hasbara operative trying to plant 'proof' that MoA is peopled by neo-nazis or if he/she is a genuine fair dinkum anti-semitic judeophobic, the reality is that this poster lies, shrieks nonsense, and appears to be motivated solely by infantile attention seeking in the form of causing maximum disruption. I expect few to heed the warning since many of the more credulous are themselves luxuriating in the warm bath of fake compliment.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 12 2018 5:57 utc | 196

Listen to Debisdead, stupid goyim, don't listen to anyone else

Posted by: Rothsteinberg | Sep 12 2018 6:46 utc | 197

Just a fwiw - in a previous comment I noted, echoing David the missing images in the masthead (Posted by: Philippe | Sep 9, 2018 7:32:43 PM | 44).

The images now appear as they should. TY, b

Posted by: Philippe | Sep 12 2018 9:07 utc | 198

Without US aid and intervention, Britain would have gone under. Their main contribution to the rest of the war, along with their naval force, was as an advanced base for bombing raids and the eventual recapture of the continent.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Sep 12 2018 11:58 utc | 199

Posted by: ralphieboy | Sep 12, 2018 7:58:04 AM | 202

And without US (and British) support Nazi Germany could not have rearmed.

“cognoscenti of international diplomacy and business in the 1930s widely expected that Hitler would spare western countries, instead attacking and destroying the Soviet Union as promised in Mein Kampf. To encourage and assist… was the hidden objective of the infamous appeasement policy pursued by London and Paris, and tacitly approved by Washington.” .... In 1936 William Dodd, Roosevelt’s Ambassador to Germany, warned the president that,

“A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. On [the ship] a fellow passenger, who is a prominent executive of one of the largest financial corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies.” (Charles Higham, Trading with the Enemy, p.167)

Posted by: somebody | Sep 12 2018 13:15 utc | 200

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