Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 31, 2018
Which Fascist Said This?

Who said this?

Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills. … The whole of nature is a mighty struggle between strength and weakness, an eternal victory of the strong over the weak.

Who is paraphrased here?

The first state to adopt evolutionary ethics would prevail over all others in the struggle for existence. … Extermination and war then became moral goods to eliminate the weak.

And who said this?

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong.

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Answers:

1. Adolph Hitler on April 13 1923 in Munich

2. Wilhelm Schallmayer, co-founder of the German eugenics movement in the early 20th century, paraphrased here.

3. Benjamin Netanyahoo on August 29 2018 at the Negev Nuclear Weapon Center (Also here.)

Also:

It is not just by chance that Netanyahoo sounds like Hitler. Both, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, and Adolph Hitler developed their political awareness around the turn of the century in imperial Vienna. Social Darwinism was the rage of that time. Fascists and Zionists drank from the same poisoned well.

Besides – did you know that Hitler did not want to exterminate the Jews? An Arab made him do that. A Muslim. That is according to one Benjamin Netanyahoo, currently prime minister of the Zionist entity in Palestine:

In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."

The account is, of course, historically nonsense.

Related:

The administration of the Hindu supremacist Narendra Modi in India launched an arrest campaign to silence its critics. Its demonetization program, a first step to introduce a degressive bank transaction tax, did not achieve the desired results but created an economic mess. Modi's re-election is in danger. The accusations against the arrested people imply, correctly in my view, that the government of India is fascist:

Elgaar Parishad probe: Those held part of anti-fascist plot to overthrow govt, Pune police tells court

 

Comments

The primary link between liberalism and fascism is their insistence that the weak go to the wall. Communism denies this so did all societies before the British empire of the C19th.
It is inconceivable that any previous society would have condoned the positions adopted by the British government in Ireland during the ‘Potato famine’ or the policies pursued during successive Bengal famines.
For those unfamiliar with the history of what occurred in Ireland it is worth recalling that during the years in which the potato harvest failed entirely there were massive shipments of food out of Ireland, vast quantities of meat, butter, cheese, barley and other grains, were despatched to England and elsewhere for sale.
Benjamin Jowett, the Master of Balliol College Oxford, said of the liberal Political Economists that he distrusted them and had done so since being told by one of them that, while it was true that more than a million Irish people had died of starvation during the famine, “He said that he wasn’t sure that that that was enough.”
For Bengal see, for example, Mike Davis’s Late Victorian Holocausts.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 1 2018 17:26 utc | 101

Right now I’d plump for plain old law and order top to bottem !
War crimes trials, arms trade ceo’s shareholders being prosecuted for aiding mass murder, cops prosecuted for murdering inocent people becouse of there skin colour. Then let’s follow the money that one is a big one! But really why not ! Society has laws, there right there. It’s that simple .
Bye bye nazi’s

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 1 2018 17:27 utc | 102

Noirette @34.
There were 10 others killed with Zakharchenko, including Natalia Volkova, a PR person. She ended up with 60% body burns.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dl9aGYEXoAIcgg4.jpg
RIP them all.

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 1 2018 17:28 utc | 103

Israel is doomed unless it rejects the aggressive fascism of Netanyahoo and his minions.

Posted by: Fidelios Automata | Sep 1 2018 17:30 utc | 104

@101 “The primary link between liberalism and fascism is their insistence that the weak go to the wall. Communism denies this so did all societies before the British empire of the C19th.”
Not sure where the Romans and Genghiz Khan fit into that theory.

Posted by: dh | Sep 1 2018 17:35 utc | 105

“….the USSR dissolved over the weight of its own internal contradictions.”
by writing this, above, you denies everything that you have written. it is typical western mainstream propaganda “explanation”. No society can implode as long as it has the monopoly of power, the monopoly over armed forces and police. USSR dissolute itself by agreement between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus and the Russian nationalistic elite spearheaded that process. Yes, Gorbachev had attempted to reconstruct USSR but failed, so the story goes. Russian nationalist/liberals, western orientated – orthodox Christians decided to reconstitute the Russian state. And we see that today. Also, I believe that Russian elite decided to stop sharing its wealth with the rest of USSR and the Warsaw pact for that matter.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 1 2018 17:38 utc | 106

as for liberalism one ought to read something from Domenico Losurdo.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 1 2018 17:40 utc | 107

“….the USSR dissolved over the weight of its own internal contradictions.”
funny statement it sound like Marx writing about capitalism.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 1 2018 17:43 utc | 108

important thing to say about Hannah Arendt (or CIA) is that she gave negative opinion on book from Raul Hilberg and his monumental work “The Destruction of the European Jews” thus he couldn’t print that book for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raul_Hilberg

Posted by: partizan | Sep 1 2018 17:50 utc | 109

Posted by b on August 31, 2018 at 09:32 AM | Permalink
This strong and weak stuff is not the definition of fascism.
Or Germany’s defense minister Ursula von der Leyen is a fascist, claiming that it is only possible to talk to Russia from a position of strength.
She got this reaction.

“Given what Germany did in our country, I think they should keep mum on the matter for the next two hundred years,” Shoigu stressed, in an apparent nod to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union during World War Two.
In addition, he said that one should “ask [our] grandfathers” what it means to talk to Russia from a position of strength, in another clear reference to the Soviet Union’s role in defeating Nazi Germany.
At the same time, Shoigu reiterated Russia’s readiness for any mutually beneficial contact and advantageous cooperation.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 1 2018 17:53 utc | 110

in addition to my post #106 the political system of one country can be overthrown by popular revolt like the October revolution (it depends on definition of the revolution) or the French’s one and some others. But those are rather extraordinary events than the rule.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 1 2018 18:00 utc | 111

@104
Israel is doomed because 60% or more of its inhabitants embrace a non-democratic Apartheid state whole-heartedly.
The few remaining non-Arab liberals embrace Apartheid as a necessary evil.
Are you a phenomenon called a liberal Zionist who believes there’s a kinder, gentler Zionism out there? There is no such reality. It will permanently remain the good illusion that fuels the evil reality.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 1 2018 18:40 utc | 112

Like all mad dictators, fascists and promoters of Apartheid and supremacist regimes, Yahu will leave kicking and screaming and in his case he’ll be hugging that bomb he drew for the U.N. and hopefully relegated to a busy street corner in Tel Aviv where he’ll peddle the end of Zionism and all mankind at the hands of Iran in an imminent future and then go to his final resting place not having had his dream realized. The end is near. Repent.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 1 2018 18:48 utc | 113

This discussion is getting out of hand. vk 99 is not right (to be polite).

Nazifascism is a mode of liberalism (classic liberalism) because that’s what history shows us: both Hitler and Mussolini were born and created during the apex of liberalism,

Communism and Fascism are not the same thing, as in the theory of Arendt. They merely used the same techniques. Nor is fascism really liberalism. Perhaps a reaction, but not even that. The states in which Hitler and Mussolini grew up were not liberal democracies, but rather monarchical autocracies, which had failed. So reactions to that. The demonstration is that Neo-Nazis today are not in any way liberal, but rather far right, based on uber-nationalism. That is the basis also of 1930s fascism. Nationalism taken to an extreme, and employing totalitarian techniques.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 1 2018 18:48 utc | 114

@ Posted by: partizan | Sep 1, 2018 1:38:45 PM | 106
That was after the fact. Even in tje late 80s, the dominant belief in the West was that the USSR wouldn’t collapse. When it suddenly happened, they changed the narrative.
@ idem 108
Well, whatever. Doesn’t change the fact per se.

Posted by: vk | Sep 1 2018 18:50 utc | 115

Here’s just another accomplishment by the Zionist tool, Trump.:
Trump slashes UNRWA funding to Palestine
Even this won’t save his ass. He’s yesterday’s tool already.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 1 2018 19:30 utc | 116

Sorry, that link got lost. Here’s another:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/31/17804262/palestinian-refugees-unrwa-funding-cut
Note that this includes all Palestinian refugee camps in Gaza, PT, Lebanon and Jordan.
Trump is a selfish bastard plain and simple doing the bidding of his Zionist bastards.
I can’t wait for his gilded toilet to be exchanged for a stinking steel one behind bars.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 1 2018 19:38 utc | 117

i.e. doing the bidding of his Zionist bastard masters who pretty soon will scurry off the sinking Trump titanic.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 1 2018 19:41 utc | 118

Act 2 Scene 4
Outside Macbeth’s Penthouse
Enter UNCLE SAM and and JOE CITIZEN
JOE CITIZEN
Threescore and ten I can remember well:
Within the volume of which time I have seen
Hours dreadful and things strange; but this sore night Hath trifled former knowings.
UNCLE SAM
Ah, good father, Thou seest, the heavens, as troubled with man’s act, Threaten his bloody stage: by the clock, ‘tis day And yet dark night strangles the travelling lamp:
Is’t night’s predominance, or the day’s shame,
That darkness does the face of earth entomb,
When living light should kiss it?
JOE CITIZEN
‘Tis unnatural,
Even like the deed that’s done. On Tuesday last,
A falcon, towering in her pride of place,
Was by a mousing owl hawk’d at and kill’d.
UNCLE SAM
And Kennedy’s vintage autos — a thing most strange and certain — Beauteous and swift, the minions of their race, Turn’d wild in nature, broke their garages, spun out, Contending ‘gainst obedience, as they would make War with mankind.
JOE CITIZEN
‘Tis said they crashed into each other.
UNCLE SAM
They did so, to the amazement of mine eyes
That look’d upon’t. Here comes good Lady Liberty
Enter LADY LIBERY
How goes the world, madam, now?
LADY LIBERTY
Why, see you not?

Posted by: Guerrero | Sep 1 2018 19:44 utc | 119

Communism was and is basically internationalist. In principle to give a fair share to the common man. At least in the Soviet Union, national identity was forgotten. That was why it failed, as it was based on the Russian colonial empire, where the Kazakhs, the Uzbeks, the Turkmens, etc., were looking for national independence. It was badly handled.
Nevertheless there are many former Soviets who look back with regret on those times, when life was stable. You knew where you were. That is what many people prefer, a stable life, rather than the excitement of capitalist freedom, where you might be out of a job tomorrow.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 1 2018 19:46 utc | 120

I guess my point was that outrage is easy and not very instructive.
All three quotes are derivatives of Thucycides’ dialogue, and hence referrential to it. (It is impossible to believe that the war planners around these men were ignorant of this as the work stands as the first Western history.)
Thus, the quotes can only be analyzed in referrence to the entire Melian dialogue and the History itself, which in my opinion is simply brilliant in its wisdom, encompassing outlook, and exploration of possible courses of action and consequent results. Thus, the History stands as the western response to the three centuries earlier “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu.
Both works were extemely subtle and long-reaching in outlook. Both were aware (long before Hegel and Marx) of the dialectical nature of human action.
The three quotes are neither subtle, correct, nor take into account the dialectical responses to their invocations. In short, they are nonsense political bromides and should not be taken any more seriously than any nonsense heard on the campaign trail of any country.
Humanity is ruled by two opposing forces: Competition and Cooperation. Both are necessay for survival. To ignore one is to insure ruination. The quotes should be seen in that light.
The best plans are the farthest reaching.
As a personal aside, when I was a freshman at Reed College in 1974, all students took Humanites 101, and many, including myself, took the second year course. The requirement was one of the distinguishing marks of the Reed experience. The idea was that studying Western Civilization (a good idea, as Gandhi ironically put it) was the core to a liberal arts education and understanding life today. At the time, plowing through the entire Illiad in one week while also keeping up with a course load heavy in theoretical Math and Physics was a little onerous, to put it mildly. Sleep was optional.
There were numerous faults to the presentation of materials, as might be expected in such an ambitious endeavor. There was no attempt, for instance, to connect the Peloponnesian War with events in say, Vietnam. Talk of an American Empire and its nature was non-existent.
In truth, I was far more concerned in just keeping up to fully digest such material. Most of the work was far beyond my sheltered suburban teenage understanding of the world. But now, more than forty years later, I am grateful for having suffered through such sensory overload, and often small gems of what I learned come rising up from the subconscious in response to current events. Revisiting the works now shows me how much I have grown and matured in my understanding, a worthy recompense to the merciless aging process.
I still remember the lines of nervous freshman walking the windswept lanes of fallen leaves, passing the ivied buildings, all with the same copy of Thucydides tucked under their arm.

Posted by: Ex-Reedie | Sep 1 2018 20:02 utc | 121

Laguerre @119
(Neo-)Liberalism, imperialism, Nazism, etc. are all internationalist as well.
I know so many people on the western left who believe that invading Syria, Iran, Venezuela, intervening in Africa, sanctions/punishments (war?) on Russia, Soros, colour revolutions, etc. is all good and justified because it moves away from the nation state towards internationalism.

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 1 2018 20:15 utc | 122

@ Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 1, 2018 2:48:22 PM | 113
Even what you call Arendt’s “same techniques” is wrong: nazi Germany had a completely different socioecomic and cultural structure than the USSR. Germany didn’t even had eg commissaries, they didn’t even had a planified central economy. It was really just liberalism: an USA that went wrong.

Posted by: vk | Sep 1 2018 20:32 utc | 123

To those who say Statements 1 and 3 in B’s post reflect or demonstrate reality: don’t confuse bullying with strength.
The statements are expressions of Social Darwinism in its various forms. Social Darwinism represents a particular belief system that justifies the existence of an elite dominating society and culture, so as to ensure its (that is, the elite’s) continued survival and domination.
Needless to say, Binyamin Netanyahu and his wife Sara are under police investigation in Israel for corruption. Sara N apparently is also notorious for ill-treating her staff and throwing her weight around to impress and intimidate others.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/recording-of-sara-netanyahu-screaming-is-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-1.5769985
Is this sort of behaviour – stealing from the nation, bullying others – the behaviour of those who are strong and secure in their power?

Posted by: Jen | Sep 1 2018 21:03 utc | 124

Someone recently told me that the whole of human history boils down to one thing, “one tribe wants to take something from another tribe”. I would put it another way, sharing outside of the family unit is learned, taking is natural selection at its best.

Posted by: dltravers | Sep 1 2018 21:24 utc | 125

re vk 122
So, having stated Arendt as your belief, you now deny it, saying that fascism is different from communism. So what makes fascism then, apart from the technique of declaring the unity of the nation behind the leader, which the commies also did? The only answer is nationalism, as I said before.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 1 2018 21:24 utc | 126

To those who say Statements 1 and 3 illustrate reality: don’t confuse bullying with strength.
Hitler and Netanyahu’s statements reflect the viewpoint of Social Darwinism, an ideology that justifies elite dominance of society to its own ends.
The question we should be asking ourselves is whether nations that have achieved military power, often through intimidating and brainwashing their own peoples, and smashing down those who resist. should be allowed to continue in this way. And for what purpose?
Can the actions and policies of Nazi Germany and Israel be construed as those of powerful and strong nations? If Israel chooses easy targets to attack, and relies on bullying others and intimidating them by exploiting the Shoah, are its actions those of a strong nation?

Posted by: Jen | Sep 1 2018 21:26 utc | 127

Bevin @101 & vk @99
I have been brought up with the history and consequences of the potato famine and one thing that always puzzled me was why the British Empire just allowed it to happen? It would have cost little to the Empire and cast the British in a whole new light in the eyes of the Irish.
This proposition that it was ideological (liberalism) is something of an eye opener to me, social darwinism (let the weak die) is a very persuasive reason. And this does lead to a direct correlation with Nazism/fascism.
The more recent books (Kershaw) on Hitler talk about the freedom of officials to do what they want and take what they want as a reason why there are not written orders from Hitler authorising (amongst other things) the genocide of those considered weak and undesirable. This is obviously frustrating to the writers because they are unable to convincing find sufficient written documentation supporting the administrative implementation of the presumed ‘ideology’; a frustrating inability to adequately explain Hitler, as it were. This idea that Nazism is some kind of souped up liberalism is more convincing than saying Hitler was just too lazy to get out of bed in the mornings.
The key objection that I think that most people will instinctively have (because the idea is so contrary to what we have been taught) is that (neo-)liberalism and democracy go together. However, some of (neo-)liberalism’s prime ideological advocates (Hayek, James M. Buchanan) clearly wanted to minimise democratic interference and envisaged a time when democracy was no longer of use and could be discarded.
This idea “that Fascism (and Nazism) are a form of Liberalism” seems like a really important idea.

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 1 2018 21:30 utc | 128

To ex-reedie @ 120
Thank you for taking us back to the Greeks! I offer in tandem this quotation from the website of a Plato scholar who has long been one of my heroes, Bernard Suzanne (his site is still available, an amazing source of ongoing study):
“Unless either the philosophers become kings in the cities or those who are
nowadays called kings and rulers get to philosophizing truly and adequately,
and this falls together upon the same person, political power and philosophy,
while the many natures of those who are driven toward the one apart from
the other are forcibly set aside, there will be no cessation of evils, my dear
Glaucon, for cities, nor, methinks, for the human race.”
Plato, République, V, 473c11-d61
I will just add that the title “Republic” is a bad translation of the Greek word “Politeia” – to my mind “Citizenry” fits better, bearing in mind that cities in Socrates’ day were the equivalent of small states. And in Shakespearean terms, it would be prudent to say of that ‘forcible setting aside of many natures’ – “Aye, there’s the rub!”

Posted by: juliania | Sep 1 2018 21:44 utc | 129

ADKC: … why the British Empire just allowed it to happen?
It wasn’t liberalism or social darwinism. As proven by the success of Irish outside Ireland.
It was pacifying the unruly Irish that lived next door to the greatest Empire yet known. Today we would call it a crime against humanity.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 1 2018 21:50 utc | 130

ADKC @126–
Prior to the contrived Potato Famine was Enclosure. Perhaps you’ve read Sir Thomas More’s Utopia which describes well the outcome of that quite deliberate policy. It would be nice to ascribe such doings to the Policy favored by Sir Francis Bacon who advocated waging war on the poor continuously and mercilessly, deeming them The Hydra threatening the wellbeing of the well off. As many have written, the British rehearsed their colonial policies first on the Irish and the aims had nothing to do with Liberalism or any other ism aside from Authoritarianism, which is quite close to being a Totalitarian System and is certainly argued as such. That Liberalism can be in any way associated with Fascism means a basic lack of understanding of Liberalism’s defining characteristics.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 1 2018 21:59 utc | 131

@ Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 1, 2018 5:24:48 PM | 124
That’s my point: Arendt’s totalitarianism theory is 100% false. There is no “totalitarianism” in reality: it is a Cold War myth, a mirage. Nazism and Communism had absolutely nothing in common (as she states). Different ideology, different genesis in Western school of thought, different goals, different economic systems etc. Hitler never laid out any economic plan, it was implicit the liberal model was the model: he simply wanted a traditional colonial power that could mirror the British Empire to the East. He didn’t invent racism or genocide.
It was not just a difference of “the Third Reich was nationalist and the USSR was not” — on the contrary, Socialism in one country was the victorious ideology post-Lenin, and the Cuban, Vietnamese and Chinese (to a lesser extent) were all nationalist in substance. Fidel Castro wasn’t even communist when he led the Revolution!
There are no coincidence in “techniques”. Unless you characterize anything as tributary to the place who first invented it. In this sense, everybody who uses Law is Roman, or anybody who goes to space is Soviet — which is absurd. Propaganda warfare, prison systems, war strategies, logistics — those are all universal methodologies, means to achieve an end, there are no patents in then. This is so true that the USA is using many methods (including torture in black sites) that, during the Cold War, its propaganda (which would cause Goebbels envy) stated only a “totalitarian” (i.e. a communist or a fascist) would do.
The USSR was a unique experiment, which dissolved suddenly and unexpectedly. In my opinion, it was valuable in the sense it was the first experience of a State in which the working class was in power (dictatorship of the proletariat). Yes, it failed — but no new economic system is born ready, like Athena from the head of Zeus. Even capitalism failed for more than 300 years before finally working in the least of probable of places: tiny and peripheral England.

Posted by: vk | Sep 1 2018 22:03 utc | 132

ADKC @ 126:
There is pretty strong debate on the nature of the British reaction to the 1845 Irish Potato Famine. Some sources say it was deliberate genocide on the part of the British. Either Irish people starved to death or they fled overseas (and gave up their land, language and culture) to survive. Others point to the monoculture that the introduction of potatoes back in the 1600s created, and the population boom that resulted. Potatoes are a very nutritious crop staple for poor people.
The famines that began afflicting India from the 1770s on (after the Indian subcontintent started to come under British rule through the British East India Company) and which the British always never dealt with adequately – even though previous empires in India had always been able to stave off famine and starvation when monsoons failed to arrive or were late and harvests ended up ruined – might shed some light on the British treatment of the Irish Potato Famine.
In India. the Mughals and others who came before them prevented famine in areas that had suffered crop failures by reducing taxation and giving afflicted areas stored grain (from previous years’ surpluses). Under British rule, India was heavily taxed (by having to supply food for the empire) and the levels of taxation were maintained regardless of local or regional conditions. In times when the monsoon failed and crops failed, communities continued to suffer from the brunt of heavy taxation. Combined with the British destruction of the Indian textile industry over the 1700s, which put thousands out of work, British taxation and other imperial policies turned India into a massive poorhouse.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 1 2018 22:06 utc | 133

Jackrabbit @128 karlof1 @129
And yet the British State would describe itself (then and now) as liberal and democratic.
Even today the British State does not recognise that any “crime against humanity” happened in Ireland regarding the potato famine.
To avoid any confusion:- I am not suggesting that there wasn’t a crime, I am not advocating social darwinism, I am not suggesting that the Irish were weak or inferior in anyway. I am saying that liberalism may subvert democracy and tend towards criminality [including genocide] and that seems an area that has been neglected when considering what the nature of Nazism/Fascism really is.

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 1 2018 22:20 utc | 134

Communism is state owned capitalism where state controls the means of production, fascism and neoliberalism (classic liberalism)is private owned capitalism where the owners of production (elites) control the government to an unhealthy degree. Social liberalism (called socialism by some) is a mix of state and privately owned production, a mix determined to maximize benefits to society with the people in control of government, and capitalism and government serving the people and not just the elites
The US had social liberalism following WWII although tainted somewhat by the CIA and MIC and lasting until the early 70’s. There was essentially a civil war fought starting in 1963 at the elite level by neoliberal globalists and social liberal nationalists leading to a number of assassinations and ending with Nixons impeachment/resignation in 1973/74. The good guys lost and its been downhill ever since as the US descends Jacobs Neoliberal Ladder.
Only in some kind of hell could a guy like Trump be elected. At least the Germans never elected their racist and fascist leader

Posted by: Pft | Sep 1 2018 22:55 utc | 135

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 1, 2018 5:59:09 PM | 129
Although you’re right in the sense that Liberalism has some diversity over history, its cornerstone is freedom=private property. If you take the first Constitution of the French Revolution, you’ll see right in the first articles that by freedom they consider the right of the individual to fully enjoy his life and his private property (“industrie”). This chunk of the Constitution remained in the next versions.
So, colonialism was a perfectly liberal policy: the workers you’re exploiting are your property, so you’re enjoying your individual freedom. It was only with the socialist uprisings of the 19th Century that property-less people (i.e. workers) begun to enjoy some rights — the most illustrative being the right to vote (non-censitary vote, universal vote).
There’s absolutely no documentation that demonstrate Hitler and/or Mussolini tried to end liberalism and create a new economic system (like the Communist). Nazism and Fascism are literally liberalism with a bombastic narrative (one with the quest of the Aryan Race of its Lebensraum; the other trying to revive the Roman Empire), but all the basic elements of liberalism are there: the main one being the preservation of private property.
P.S.: the concept of freedom of speech was different back then: all those rights only belonged to the capitalist class; workers and slaves were not considered human beings. The concept of the “universal man” only really came in vogue with Marx; before him, it was widely believed the dominant class was of a different breed than that of an dominated class.

Posted by: vk | Sep 1 2018 22:56 utc | 136

We’re discussing isms here. What ism’s being advocated by the testimony before the Outlaw US Empire’s Senate Foreign Relations Committee by Wess Mitchell:
“Russia and China are serious competitors that are building up the material and ideological wherewithal to contest U.S. primacy and leadership in the 21st Century. It continues to be among the foremost national security interests of the United States to prevent the domination of the Eurasian landmass by hostile powers. The central aim of the administration’s foreign policy is to prepare our nation to confront this challenge by systematically strengthening the military, economic and political fundaments of American power.”
Mitchell mentions a document I wasn’t able to locate, the “Russia Integrated Strategy,” but I was able to find what appears to be its predecessor, “Russia Project Strategy, 2014-2017.”
Surely, this conforms to the Outlaw US Empire’s Imperialism via which its goal is the Full Spectrum Domination (FSD) of the planet and its people. Some would consider that Totalitarianism–the doctrine of total control. During its drive to attain FSD, certain aspects must be masked from the Empire’s public since relatively unfettered freedom is featured as one of its alleged values, which is why the many undemocratic aspects of various “trade” agreements are never discussed and negotiated in secret, for example. What do we call a government that directly lies to its populous? What sort of ism is in play?
Mitchell’s testimony was done in public so it didn’t remain secret very long, was written about in Russian, then the analysis was translated into English. Hopefully barflies and others will read these documents and shudder, although I’m sure a few will say “So, what’s new?” Well, this goes far beyond the millennia long, ongoing Class War, and confirms what I’ve been saying for awhile now–We’re already within a Hybrid Third World War being waged by people who want everything or nothing. What sort of ism’s that? In my book, it’s the worst form of Authoritarianism anyone might imagine.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 1 2018 23:26 utc | 137

Karlof1 @135
And yet the vast number of academics, elected representatives and people of the west would describe the US as liberal and democratic?

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 2 2018 0:13 utc | 138

I just love the semantics involved in describing the word “Liberal”. As for me, I’ll except this definition.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal
The neo-cons have demonized the word over the years. So have many others..

Posted by: ben | Sep 2 2018 1:05 utc | 139

ben
Liberalism
You might be most interested in the section entitled: “The Debate Between the ‘Old’ and the ‘New’ [Liberalism]”

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 2 2018 1:19 utc | 140

Wow! Quite a discussion…thanks
I want to discuss fascism but not yet
One of the things I find missing in the discussion so far is the anthropological perspective. A short version would be that with the rise of monotheistic religions came the rise of human hubris about humans place in the cosmos and limited variations of us/them proscriptions about how life should be led….and the belief that everyone should believe this way or be eliminated.
This arrangement was challenge during the (as yet finished) Enlightenment period that began with the start of the scientific revolution in 1620. This period was the birth of liberalism and the church and state came under increased scrutiny…..but not rejection….blind faith still lives on.
Fast forward to the present where we have ongoing elimination of any and all cultures not “Western” which is my biggest problem with our social order….it is reducing our genetic ability to survive by the monoculture focus…..as well as being a heinous form of social organization that favors the few over the many.
On to fascism….Fascism is not just defined by a single aspect but a combination that show the face of the beast. The best description of fascism is a list of 14 points written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). His points are as follows:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
5. Rampant sexism
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
6. A controlled mass media
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.
7. Obsession with national security
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
9. Power of corporations protected
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
14. Fraudulent elections
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 2 2018 1:47 utc | 141

Jr @ 138: Thanks for the link, but all I get from the endless semantics, is that the English language is a lot like beauty, ” in the eye of the beholder, or speaker.
English, or any language, can be used to inform or confuse.

Posted by: ben | Sep 2 2018 2:52 utc | 142

ADKC @136–
How many of a similar sample of Germans in 1938 thought that their government would do what it did? Consent must be manufactured. Caitlin Johnstone recently wrote this addition to the genre explaining how that’s done.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 2 2018 3:24 utc | 143

I have a different perspective than psychohistorian.
For starters, I would see different causes of Enlightenment. It was a huge (if somewhat misunderstood) ideological change in Europe, and such changes are caused by the profound catastrophes undermining the trust in the status quo. While the scientific and other cultural advances were definitely in place in 17 century Europe, a larger part of that century were spent on horrific wars. If you add up their effects and compare to the continent’s population, it is hard to tell if 17 century was less horrible that World Wars of 20-th century or not. And most of those wars were “religious”, or had a major religious component. In reaction, the thinkers and rulers got convinced that “reason” should have primacy over “religion”. Scientific advances played a role in fortifying the authority of “reason”, but ideas like defending one true faith and following rulers because of their divine mandate were discredited by calamitous wars.
Advantages of “reason” were quite quickly noticed by elites, for example divine rights of absolute rulers were patched by their enlightenment. Wars in Europe improved methods of conscription, arming and disciplining the peasants and outright massacring and pillaging was less evident than in 17-th century. But any discussion on fascism had to wait until 20-th century, because it made no sense in authoritarian systems of more traditional elites — manipulating public opinion makes little sense if public opinion matters only a little. But as democracy became widespread AND the traditional elites got compromised once again by WWI, radical movements emerged, including Communism and Fascism.
What I am trying to say is that most of points listed as features of fascism by psychohistorian is “good old order” with appeals to “reason”. Of course, all methods used in the past are applied if handy, e.g. in Thailand divine mandate of the king is energetically applied by the ruling military junta. To me, fascism is bit more specific. For example, the cult of a uniquely qualified leader, championing the “common people”, projects of “national grandeur” that may include highway system and/or war of conquests, rank intimidation augmenting more gentle “manipulation” etc.
But most of points listed by psychohistorian are more insidious features that follow from “Iron law of oligarchy”. Getting rid of them will require more effort than getting rid of “true fascism”.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 2 2018 4:12 utc | 144

vk, what text/interviews are you using for your claims about Arendt’s theory of totalitarianism? I mean, could you quote a specific place or paragraph? I come to her thought through Life of Mind and Human Condition, and my take or sense of her ideas about “totality” when it comes to social structures is that she gets it amazingly well how contemporary technology destroys/yed the public realm by amplifying the organismic aspects of the collective. Y’all talk about the ism of totalitarian being you find in Hannah’s writings, but it’s like there’s still something missing: the difference between the social and the political isn’t just a matter of concept but metaphysical. It isn’t just ideological but geo-metric. Social control isn’t political when it reaches the point of actualizing gods’-eyes-views, it has become self-aware bureaucracy—what we already find every day when our ego mistakes its beliefs about control for actions making history.
People forget the deepest slogan of The Party is GOD is POWER. If you believe war is not peace and ignorance is not strength, then you have to figure out why Orwell wants you to also start figuring out why god is not power.

Posted by: Charles R | Sep 2 2018 4:49 utc | 145

@82 There is some logic to the Iranians fielding a jet fighter of any sort, even if it is based on a relic of the 1970s.
An Israeli campaign against Iranian nuclear sites is going to involve F-15 and F-16 jets loaded to the gills with big-arse bombs. Those will be unable to dogfight even a relic like an F-5 unless they drop that ordinance.
If that is all those Iranians do that then they will have achieved their purpose.
Alternatively, the Israelis could use fighter escorts but then you have to consider that each escort represents one less bomb-laden F-16 (or, put another way, twice as many sorties).
Simply put: Absent any Iranian jet fighters then the Israelis can commit ALL of their jets to the task of bombing Iranian targets, and do so from the very beginning. But once Iranian fighters are in the mix then the job becomes much harder: the Israelis either have to take out those jets first before committing to a bombing campaign, or they have to commit half their force to escort duties from the very start.
Sure, SU-35s would be much better, but an F-5 is still way better than nothing.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 2 2018 5:27 utc | 146

Domenico Losurdo (14 November 1941 – 28 June 2018): ‘Liberalism, the most dogged enemy of freedom’

In your Liberalism: A Counter-History you deconstruct neoliberal ideology, which is taken to be synonymous with democracy and standing up for freedom against totalitarian forces. Why do you think it an urgent priority today to analyse – and to attack – this kind of liberal approach?
Any empire seeking to expand will need a genealogical myth, which celebrates and embellishes its origins and its history. It thus invites its declared or potential opponents to bend to a higher moral and political force. According to the legend skilfully cultivated by the Roman Empire, Rome’s origins were not only royal, but divine: it was founded by the pious Aeneas at the end of an epic journey. The son of Anchises (cousin of the king of Troy) and the goddess Venus, he had fled a Troy in flames. The genealogical myth of today’s American empire is no different. Fleeing a despotic and intolerant Europe, the pilgrim fathers made their way to the New World to build an eternal monument to freedom and found the United States, the world’s oldest democracy…

https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3926-domenico-losurdo-liberalism-the-most-dogged-enemy-of-freedom

Posted by: partizan | Sep 2 2018 6:59 utc | 147

Some like to amalgamate Nazism and communism into one, with the term ‘totalitarianism’ covering both… How would you analyse this concept?

‘Totalitarianism’ has roots in ‘total mobilisation’ and ‘total war’ – in the total regimentation of the population, driven by the capitalist great powers and their competition to conquer colonies and global hegemony. Hitler aspired to German revanchism, winning back and expanding Germany’s ‘living space’ and colonial territories. He saw himself as heir to the colonial tradition, which he sought to radicalise. He first of all identified with the US example, seeking his own Far West in Eastern Europe and reducing the Slavs to the condition of slaves in service of the Herrenvolk. Decisively, this project met its definitive defeat at Stalingrad; this defeat was, at the same time, the beginning of a gigantic wave of anti-colonial revolts. A historical comparison is useful, here, for grasping how unserious the dominant ideology’s framing of ‘totalitarianism’ is. At the start of the nineteenth century Napoleon sent a powerful army to Saint-Domingue with the mission of re-establishing slavery, after it had been abolished thanks to the great black revolution led by Toussaint Louverture. We could indeed say that in the war that then raged, the attacked were no less ‘savage’ than the attackers. But we would cover ourselves in ridicule if we claimed that we could reduce both sides to a common ‘savagery’ or a shared bloody ‘totalitarianism’.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 2 2018 7:13 utc | 148

Much of the consideration of fascism here has been about the power and control of leaders and elites. There is another side to the equation
One writer foretold the inevitable decline of the US toward fascism based on the social construct used to establish law. At its’ formation the US, like most of the West, had some form of divinely sanctioned ‘law’ as the basis of its’ civil code. While in theory law was proclaimed to flow from democratic forms of government, the law was actually a projection of a cultural/social ideal based on a religious text.
As that cultural/social/religious unity fractured in the face of secularism, humanism and liberalism, there was a shift in the ‘authority’ that lay behind social law. The writer I referred to indicated that cultural inertia would continue to carry the country for a generation or two, but inevitably social/moral disintegration would occur. The result he said would economic & social collapse which would in turn propel a movement toward fascism.
Since then there has been a lot of evidence from evolutionary biology that suggests the human predisposition to organize itself under some form of “authority structure” is hard-wired into us.

Posted by: les7 | Sep 2 2018 7:36 utc | 149

@Yeah, Right | Sep 2, 2018 1:27:48 AM | 144
the Iranian defense budget is one of lowest in that part of the world. even tiny Dubai has higher one.
upgrading an old fighter jet (not only jet) is sometime more costly than developing a new one.
su-35 flanker-e 4++ costs about $85 a piece. i simply refuse to believe they cannot afford that.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 2 2018 7:40 utc | 150

ADKC 126
I think we are talking about unbridled ‘ licence’ here not ‘ liberalism ‘ in any balanced reading !

Posted by: ashley albanese | Sep 2 2018 11:28 utc | 151

partizan @150
I think you are missing a few zeroes after $85…
you may be missing a very important reason for wishing to develop your own fighter, Iran has many US F-14s that they are unable to get parts for for the last 40 years or so. They have been able to keep some of them flying but the embargo on spares was quite effective in denying them spares.

Posted by: dan of steele | Sep 2 2018 12:09 utc | 152

yes, $85M

Posted by: partizan | Sep 2 2018 13:10 utc | 153

“Not sure where the Romans and Genghiz Khan fit into that theory.” dh |
We are not talking about wars but about societies in normal times. Both the Romans (see eg Bread and Circuses) and the various post Genghiz states (the Mongol dynasty in China) ruled by ensuring the general welfare of the population.
Incidentally there is no suggestion that the Irish were an ‘inferior race’. Those depending on the potato were weakened when there were no edible potatoes. The point is that there was plenty of food to feed them but that liberal ideology did not allow of ‘relief’ which would improve their fate.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 2 2018 14:02 utc | 154

@ Posted by: Charles R | Sep 2, 2018 12:49:09 AM | 145
Her book in question is The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951). Possibly her most famous book and the one which skyrocketed her career in the USA (and to the CIA, to which she was a collaborator).
Also, in an article about modernism (I don’t know how it was published in English), in the last paragraphs, she mentions her “research on totalitarianism”, and then goes on stating that what united nazism and communism was the adoption of a “grand narrative” (see the coincidence with post-modernism? Not a mere coincidence, for sure): the nazi adopting the “grand narrative” of race struggle and the communist the one of class struggle. That she equated the two is intellectually dishonest, but hey, it was the height of the Cold War, there was poetic license to lie in the academic world.
I was born right at the end of the Cold War. I probably belong to the first generation of historians born “post-Cold-War”. And the first thing that amazed me was the sheer quantity of pure lies and myths that pervaded Cold War era thought and science. It wasn’t some “conspiracy theory” level lies — those very carefully crafted lies, extremely difficult to debunk — no, it was pure ideology, lies that can be easily debunked with a first look at primary sources or with five minutes in internet research. Future historians (of the 22nd Century) will probably see the Cold War era until today as a dark age for science. Even Marxist production of this era suffered a lot: Marx must have had spinned in his tomb like never before during the post-war era.
-//-
@ Posted by: les7 | Sep 2, 2018 3:36:39 AM | 149

Since then there has been a lot of evidence from evolutionary biology that suggests the human predisposition to organize itself under some form of “authority structure” is hard-wired into us.

The homo sapiens is an apex superpredator, a species of the fifth trophic level (level 5). To top it off, we are also omnivorous, which makes us even more deadly and voracious.
Apex predators are not cannibal (the higher the trophic level, the lower the energy level, so it wouldn’t be energetically advantageous for apex predators to eat/hunt themselves. The meat of apex predators have very low nutrition levels and are usually full of parasites and other poisonous residues (e.g. dolphin meat is full of mercury, not edible for humans).
However, apex predator can and do kill themselves in territorial disputes — be it among themselves, be it with another apex predator species.
So, it is only natural that humans kill themselves for resources. It is in our nature.
However, there’s a situation where apex predators stop killing themselves: when the environment has enough for everybody. It will not be Teletubbies, where everybody will hug and love themselves, but they would tolerate themselves. For example, you may want to kill a stranger in the street — but if that stranger is your children’s doctor, then you’ll think twice, you’ll tolerate his existence just because it is in your economic interest to keep him alive.
That’s what Marx was all about: capitalism increased interdependency, so are now, relative to total population, killing ourselves less. The only reason the USA just don’t nuke everybody is that it depends on the rest of the world for trade. If we develop the productive forces further, we could have a situation were the excedent would be so big that nobody would have to exploit nobody (a fully-automated society). Again, Marx never stated communism would be a hippie utopia: humans would still get happy, sad, anger, grief, violence for passional motives would still happen, people would still cry when a parent would die etc. etc. What he envisaged was a society without class.
-//-
Now, the last time about liberalism.
Liberalism is an umbrella term (although not as umbrella as illuminism) to designate the legitimation of capitalism over four centuries. Liberalism was not just philosophy: it was an economic theory etc.
What unites liberals of all sorts of kinds is the fact that, ultimately, the acted to preserve or advocate for capitalism.
Liberalism can be better described thus as the way of life of capitalism; the way capitalism perceives itself over time.
The separation we do nowadays between liberalism and nazifascism comes from neoliberal propaganda.
Neoliberalism (new liberalism) was born in the 40s, in Mont Pelerin, and its doctrine stated that 1) post-war social-democracy in Western Europe = socialism and should be combated and 2) what happened between the WWI (1914) and WWII (1945) was an abortion of History, and the world should continue from where it stopped (i.e. with the old liberalism).
That’s why I consider neoliberalism more like the “return of the liberals” than “the new liberalism”, albeit it, I confess, from the point of view of the economists, the latter definition suits better. New liberalism because they conceded liberalism collapsed in 1914 and needed to be updated (this happened with Friedman’s monetarism); Return of the liberals because, albeit it was born in the 40s, it was just in 1979, with the election of Margaret Thatcher in the UK, that it would really come to power in a worldwide level (there was already a neoliberal experiment in Pinochet’s Chile, some years before).
But I think the definite empirical proof totalitarianism is a Cold War myth and that nazifascism is really liberalism is that this new rise of the “far-right/alt-right” is not comming from socialist countries (North Korea, Cuba, China and Vietnam), but from capitalist, Western Democracies (Italy, France, USA, UK, Australia, Japan — albeit Japan never gave up fascism to begin with –, Sweden, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Austria and Ukraine). It was from the liberals’ womb that fascism was (re)born, not “communism”. This is a fact, a fact we can observe today, with our own senses.
Now, you can rationalized that many of these countries are from the ex-Iron Curtain. But 1) it only happened after they turned capitalist, not while they were under the USSR and 2) those Iron Curtain countries were actually full-fledged Nazi countries before the USSR liberated them in 1945, so they had a nazi past and culture as a nationalist narrative against USSR hegemony; the Ukraine has a sui generis history, that involved a triple side civil war (White, Black and Red Armies), so, albeit they were part of the USSR, they too had a Nazi past.

Posted by: vk | Sep 2 2018 14:11 utc | 155

Social Darwinism and Eugenics was certainly not owned by Fascists alone. Its alive and well today and is used to justify neoliberal economics and imperialism. Pft at 43.
Yes.. I’d go further, the Fascists (as a standard narrow ex. Italy and Germany somewhat before and during WW2) merely adopted parts of what was then mainstream ‘Science’ and/or sociological accepted thinking, which itself was of course built on the zeitgeist, trends in popular opinion etc. ‘Modern’ (late 18th – early 19th cent > ‘misgenation’, apartheid laws, etc.) eugenics was very much a USA driven scientific trend. (Colonialist roots..) Many got on the bandwagon – medicos, drug pedlers, breeders (of non-humans like chickens and beef), socio pundits, pols, and more. Ex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Record_Office (founded 1910)
‘Biologic’ determinist credos (=> it’s all in your genes) hold a strong sway in the US today, stronger imho than in any other country, sticking out my neck as of course I know little to nothing about 2/10 or far more of the world.
The fundamentalist and rigidly deterministic stance of course serves repressive policies: ppl are born bad and ‘need prison’ etc.
Another nefarious result, e.g. ‘ppl are born gender dysphoric’ so need corrective measures (surgery, drug dependence) is another, exploitative, side of the same coin.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 2 2018 14:24 utc | 156

vk
I think you go too far when equating nazifascism with liberalism.
I see neoliberalism as extending “markets” into areas not normally associated with capitalism, specifically government. Neoliberalism essentially legitimates plutocracy.
Nazifascism was different than Mussolini’s fascism and they both differ from plutocracy.
Also, I think neoliberalism and neoconservatism TOGETHER get you much closer to Nazifascism. Neoconservatives are machivellian and believe that the State can and should do whatever-it-takes – including lies and torture – to achieve its goals (when allied with neoliberalism, it is the goals of the plutocrats).
The West is RULED by neolibcons asshats and will continue to be so until/unless that form of government is proven a failure.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 2 2018 14:54 utc | 157

Mexico’s experience might contribute to this fascinating discussion
regarding “liberalism” possibly being the original parent of “fascism”:

Since the War of Independence, Mexico did not follow the classic liberalism left by the French Revolution and the independence of the United States; in fact, the insurgents, the heroes of the Reformation and the Revolution of 1910, overcame that liberalism and bequeathed us a revolutionary liberalism that sought the liberation of our people, the defense of national sovereignty, the dismantling of the apparatus of the despotic power, the creation of a state of well-being with a mixed economy. That is to say: the way to recover the left from the subsoil as patrimony of the nation is to end corruption; to moderate opulence and indigence, as Morelos said*, and so on. These are leftist demands. Thus, we are clear that current liberalism should have nothing to do with what is identified as neoliberalism, a totally right ideology. Guerrero y Álvarez The Imposition of Neoliberalism p. 254. Alejo García Jiménez (my translation)

* The now-famous appeal for the moderation of opulence and indigence was pronounced by the single foremost Mexican political hero, José Maria Morelos, in the Cathedral of St. Mary of the Assumption, in Chilpancingo, Guerrero. This singular political declaration is titled “Sentiments of the Nation”.
In the context of Mexico’s struggle for independence from the Spanish colonial regime,
what was important then was not only the development of an effective armed struggle against the royalist army, yet also it was to lay the theoretical, political and ideological bases of the insurrection, so as to advance the construction of an original model of Mexican Republic, conditioned by the romantic ideas of the nineteenth century and by the example of our neighbor to the North, the then model revolutionary nation, the United States of America.
In response to that historical imperative, representatives of the independence forces arrived with the investiture of deputies to the First Congress of Anáhuac that was installed in the temple of the Virgin of the Assumption in Chilpancingo.
There, The Feelings of the Nation were read aloud to the full Congress on September 13, 1813, by the General in Chief, Morelos. These became the political-philosophical guidelines of the independence movement by fulfilling the need to justify resistance and inspiring Mexicans to struggle for individual liberty and the rights of free citizens.
Class struggle between conservatives and republicans persisted during the eighteenth-century throughout Latin America.
Reactionaries attached to the viceroyal regime consistently clashed with Mexican thinkers, exponents of the European romantic philosophy, that is: idealists expecting much of humanity.
The sun of the United States had risen over all America, with its twin stars, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights as shining indicators of a good future for humanity; both documents appealed to the idea of an inherent nobility of the human being, and the capacity of free citizens to govern themselves.
Audacious intellectuals of the time, with their lofty ideas, dreamed of becoming gifted modernizers of society; perhaps on account of having read romantic literary novels, men and women of the time imagined themselves as charismatic real-world heroes.
In the colonial regime, youth training was in the hands of priestly functionaries. Instruction was restricted. Education was lucrative for the institutions of the church.
This caused enormous rage in Mexican republicans; it offended them to the marrow that the clergy had the people subjected to an irrational dogma, and calling this “education”.
The Plan of Ayutla, proclaimed 1 of March of 1854,
was the formal expression of a movement to take away the patent
of education held by the Roman church and its conqueror cronies.
In the end, liberal and federalist forces triumphed
when they forcefully ended the dictatorship of Antonio López de Santa Anna.
Afterwards, Benito Juárez led the War of Reformation, which lasted three years culminating on January 1, 1861, with the defeat of the reactionary faction that sought to restore courtly privileges to the church and to elitist military officers. It was a rebellion promoted by land owners, merchants, moneylenders and imperialist foreigners, the organic enemies of the Mexican republic.
Juárez served as President of Mexico between 1858 and 1872.
He consolidated the Mexican Republic and was at the head of the fight against the interventionist army and the absurd puppet emperor Maximilian of Habsburg,
singing final victory over the foreign invaders by the national forces in 1867.

Posted by: Guerrero | Sep 2 2018 14:55 utc | 158

The peoples – the various ethnic groups – which had populated the socialist country that was Yugoslavia enjoyed a decent living standard under Tito. Tito died and left a power vacuum and a “weak” system which appointed a new President annually.
The West played “the economic Sanctions Card” to begin to facilitate the break up. With a wrecked economy, ethnic tensions increased. Western Money and support was given to Secessionist Groups. False Flag events were staged which lead to war. The country was broken into tiny states and looted.
But importantly, Western Propaganda was vital in getting the people to embrace a new western Capitalist, Neoliberal vision for themselves.
Here’s the punchline:
“They thought they would be getting BOTH”.
They could keep the good socialist things they had – like healthcare, jobs and etc. AND get the benefits of Capitalism (the chance to become wealthy, Levis blue jeans, Mickey Mouse…).
They had no idea that they would lose everything they had.

Posted by: fast freddy | Sep 2 2018 15:37 utc | 159

Regarding the discussion regarding liberalism and fascism/nazi-ism, these articles by Sylvain Laforest (Oriental Review) about the reasons for the 1941 parachuting of Rudolf Hess into England make for fascinating reading:
Part 1
https://orientalreview.org/2018/08/09/the-unpleasant-truth-about-the-1941-parachuting-of-rudolf-hess-in-england-i/
Part 2
https://orientalreview.org/2018/08/16/the-unpleasant-truth-about-the-1941-parachuting-of-rudolf-hess-in-england-ii/
Part 3
https://orientalreview.org/2018/08/23/the-unpleasant-truth-about-the-1941-parachuting-of-rudolf-hess-in-england-iii/

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 2 2018 19:19 utc | 160

Dan of steele @152
“you may be missing a very important reason for wishing to develop your own fighter, Iran has many US F-14s that they are unable to get parts for for the last 40 years or so. They have been able to keep some of them flying but the embargo on spares was quite effective in denying them spares.”
My understanding is Reverse engineering has allowed Iran to manufacture all essential replaceable parts.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 2 2018 20:34 utc | 161

@ 160 ADKC
Thanks for the links, I had seen the first but not the other two.

Posted by: les7 | Sep 2 2018 23:31 utc | 162

Posted by: fast freddy | Sep 2, 2018 11:37:28 AM | 159
It did not happen quite like that.
There were no economic sanctions against Yugoslavia by The West in the 80-ties.
In the 80s was an economic crisis, the consequence of:
– Heavy borrowing during 70-ties and inability of the country to fully service the debt.
– Corruption and mismanagement by big companies and banks, culminating in the ‘Affair Agrokomerc’ where it was revealed that the large Slovenian bank was in collusion with the largest Bosnian agro-business to issue and clear promissory notes with no money backing. This affair brought Yugoslav economy on its knees, showing that the country was basically bankrupt. Shortages of fuel, hygiene items, certain foods and beverages were constant. Inflation was high. Nobody trusted dinar, everybody was dealing in German marks.
– The country was not broken by tiny parts but rather dissolved to its constituent parts. Yugoslavia was a federal state. All these new countries (except Kosovo) were member states, with the right of self-determination including secession. They all had their own constitution, clearly defined border (except at few small places) flags coat of arms, official language, police etc.
– Yes, true, it was presented to us that the transition to market economy will get us out of crisis. At that point we believed in it, because we saw how the West lives, and it looked better than the crap we were in.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 3 2018 0:18 utc | 163

@ hopehely with the description of the Shock Doctrine applied to Yugoslavia in 70’s-80’s…thanks for sharing
I encourage you to read the Namoi Klein book (The Shock Doctrine) because what happened to Yugoslavia has and is happening to countries all over the world. The book focuses on South America but the plan is the same…..extending “freedom and democracy” (snark)…..more like local oligarch management, consolidation/instantiation of private ownership/inheritance, private Central bank…..apply marketing/sales of glitz national development with sketchy return and dependancies if not outright corruption and the profits are privatized and the losses socialized…..rinse and repeat.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 3 2018 2:11 utc | 164

@150 “su-35 flanker-e 4++ costs about $85 a piece. i simply refuse to believe they cannot afford that.”
I’m sure they could. But this presents two problems:
a) The Russians have to be willing to sell it to them
b) The Iranians have to have faith that the Russians will provide the ongoing support.
The Iranians aren’t stupid: they know from experience a cashed-up Middle East country can purchased uber-sophisticated weapons baubles only to see them become piles of rusted scrap when the supplier imposes sanctions.
The USA is a past-master at it: they will slam down the gates and wait – for years, if necessary – until their next opponent seizes up and then The Mightiest Military In History just waltzes in to victory.
The Iranians understand that game-plan, which is why they do not like fielding a weapons system unless they either make it themselves or – at the very least – know how to support it themselves. They don’t like weapons where the original supplier can simply lean over and turn off the spigot.
It makes their armed forces decidedly low-tech, sure, it does.
But it also means an armed forces that is as sanction-proof as it is possible to get.
The US military therefore can’t “wait out” the Iranians. They can attack now or attack after a decade of sanctions will make no difference: either way, the Iranians will be able to put up a fight.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 3 2018 11:16 utc | 165

The Pantene advert, fronted by Ellie Goulding, has the slogan ‘strong is beautiful’

Posted by: jazza | Sep 4 2018 6:29 utc | 166

When we breed Animals .. we accept Eugenics without moral hickups
because we know … the interference WORKS ..
we can create Annimals suited for any purpose .. given Time and Effort .
But in Humans many people seem to have different oppinions
Rather Strange !
Especially in lieu of existing Knowledge and Statistics available on the Human Species .

Posted by: Ole C G Olesen | Sep 6 2018 8:56 utc | 167

And
Current CAPITALISM and MARXISM are 2 Faces of the same Coin
The Coin is called ” SHEKEL ” quote : Ole C G Olesen

Posted by: Ole C G Olesen | Sep 6 2018 9:23 utc | 168

ساخت تابلوهای تبلیغاتی و حروف برجسته منحصر به فرد برای سلایق خاص
ساخت حروف برجسته با انواع متریال موجود در دنیای تبلیغات
هرانچه را که در تصور شماست با متریال مورد نظر خودتان در تابلوسازی اندیشه افتاب به منصه ظهور می رسانیم .
ساخت جدیدیترین حروف برجسته با انواع متریال های ( استیل steel- آهنiron – برنج – آلومینیوم – چلنیومchannelume – انواع چوب – پلکسی plexiglasse و… )
ساخت شیک ترین لوگوهای تبلیغاتی با استفاده از حروف برجسته فانتزی و ترکیبی
به زودی از جدیدترین محصولات حروف برجسته تابلو سازی اندیشه افتاب در نمایشگاه بین المللی تهران در دی ماه سال جاری رو نمایی خواهد شد.

Posted by: تابلو چلنیوم | Sep 6 2018 20:23 utc | 169

Even if we euphemistically or charitably commend Peter’s passion, he often gets so worked up that he can’t resist holding the conversational ball and making a speech before “passing” it to the next guest. And then he’s so intent on what he wants to say next that one often can see him literally waiting for the speaker to take a breath, so that he can pounce on the opportunity and interrupt with another speech.

Posted by: تابلو چلنیوم | Sep 6 2018 20:27 utc | 170

I’m leavin’
I’m weary as hell
The confusion I’m feelin’
Ain’t no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God’s on our side
He’ll stop the next war.

Posted by: تابلو چلنیوم | Sep 6 2018 20:30 utc | 171

تابلوسازی اندیشه افتاب
ساخت تابلوهای تبلیغاتی و حروف برجسته منحصر به فرد برای سلایق خاص
ساخت حروف برجسته با انواع متریال موجود در دنیای تبلیغات
هرانچه را که در تصور شماست با متریال مورد نظر خودتان در تابلوسازی اندیشه افتاب به منصه ظهور می رسانیم .
ساخت جدیدیترین حروف برجسته با انواع متریال های ( استیل steel- آهنiron – برنج – آلومینیوم – چلنیومchannelume – انواع چوب – پلکسی plexiglasse و… )
ساخت شیک ترین لوگوهای تبلیغاتی با استفاده از حروف برجسته فانتزی و ترکیبی
به زودی از جدیدترین محصولات حروف برجسته تابلو سازی اندیشه افتاب در نمایشگاه بین المللی تهران در دی ماه سال جاری رو نمایی خواهد شد.
جهت مشاهده نمونه کارها به وبسایت اندیشه آقتاب مراجعه نمایید.
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” تابلوسازی اندیشه آفتاب ”
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آدرس : تهران ، جاده ساوه ، نصیرآباد ، جاده قرمز ، کوچه پنجم ، پ6
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Posted by: تابلو چلنیوم | Sep 6 2018 20:31 utc | 172

He is being a realist, who spoke too much. Chaotic times lie ahead. But it is also true that Hitler was a realist and his (too blackpilled) realism led him to abandoning all moral barriers.

Posted by: old commenter | Sep 8 2018 9:41 utc | 173

@66
Walter Andersen and S Damle new book on the indian hindutva movements mother organisation, the rss, is now available
https://www.amazon.com/RSS-Walter-Andersen-Shridhar-Damle/dp/0670089141/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1536641693&sr=1-1&keywords=damle+andersen

Posted by: anon | Sep 11 2018 4:59 utc | 174

@66
” Andersen and Damle have a new book to be published this year ”
its now available as,
RSS: A View to the Inside
by Walter K. Andersen and Shridhar D. Damle
2018

Posted by: anon | Sep 12 2018 18:02 utc | 175

Hi there, I have a sewing site and a sewing pattern for my site. If you want to be a bit confident

Posted by: سیماکده | Sep 23 2018 14:53 utc | 176