Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 23, 2018
What The Party ‘Strategists’ Say Is Not What The Voters Want

Q: Why did the Democrats lose the Senate, House and presidency as well as more than a thousand state government positions?

A: They listened to their 'strategists', not to their voters.

Here is what the strategists currently say:

Staying out of the single-payer debate, party strategists say, could help Democrats in the general election, when they’ll have to appeal to moderates skeptical of government-run health care. Earlier this year, the DCCC warned candidates about embracing single payer, hoping to avoid Republican attacks on “socialized” medicine.

Why is "socialized" medicine supposed to be a bad thing? Why not defend it? It is what the voters want:


Reuters/Ipsos poll – June/July 2018 – bigger

The 'strategists' say the voters can not have the nice stuff they want. Their arguments lost the elections. If the Democrats want to win again their must tell their voters to demand more nice stuff. Some people get that:

Progressive insurgents believe Clinton’s defeat, on top of losing control of Congress and most state governments, proved them right. They aspire to overthrow conventional wisdom that Democrats must stay safely in the middle to compete.

Democrats have been fixated for 20 years on this elusive, independent, mythical middle of the road voter that did not exist,” said Crystal Rhoades, head of the Democratic Party in Nebraska’s Douglas County, where a progressive candidate, Kara Eastman, is trying to wrest a competitive congressional district from a Republican.

“We’re going to try bold ideas.”

Most social-democratic parties in Europe have the same problem the U.S. Democrats have. The party establishments angle for the ever elusive 'liberal' center. They move the parties further to the right and lose their natural constituencies, the working class. This gives rise to (sometimes fascist) 'populists' (see Trump) and to an ever growing share of people who reject the established system and do not vote at all.

This phenomenon is the micro version of a much larger trend. Liberal globalization, as promoted by the party 'elites', promises but does not deliver what the real people need and want. Liberal globalization turned out to be a class war in which only the rich can win. A revolt, locally on the level of voters, and globally on the level of nations, is underway to regain a different view.

Alastair Crooke recently outlined the larger trend within a global, 'metaphysical' perspective.

The progressive Democrats who are pushing for single payer healthcare still miss out on other issues. They also support higher wages, but are, at the same time, against restrictions on immigration. Wages rise when companies have to compete for workers. Immigration increases the available work force. A political program that supports both does not compute.

Working people understand this and in 2016 many of them voted for Trump. Neither LGBTXYZ identity policies nor other aloof 'liberal values' will increase the income of the poor. To win back the necessary masses the Democrats and social-democrats in Europe will have to shun, or at least de-emphasize such parts of their program.

It's a class war. The rich are winning. Fight.

Comments

Daniel @99–
The city of San Francisco ought to have hired those homeless to clean up after themselves at a much lower cost. China’s leaders seem to believe they can create a resilient society of 1.3-.5 billion people as they’ve scrapped their family planning policy despite their planned future reliance on robotics and AI. FYI, Putin shares that POV.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 24 2018 19:53 utc | 101

Posted by: morongobill | Aug 24, 2018 10:03:16 AM | 75
“….we will never have single payer here in the U.S. as long as we insist upon being the world’s leading warmongerer. Can’t pay for both.”
You’re falling into the fraudulent neoliberal framing. Expanded Medicare For All would cost LESS than we currently pay. Both the conservative “Tax Policy Center” in 2016, and the Libertarian Koch Brothers studies had to admit that. The median household would save about $5,000 over what they now pay.
The question is not “how will we pay for it?”
The question is “what will you spend all the money your household saves on?”

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 24 2018 20:19 utc | 102

@102 “The city of San Francisco ought to have hired those homeless to clean up after themselves at a much lower cost.”
They would demand the going rate and probably do a shitty job anyway.

Posted by: dh | Aug 24 2018 20:39 utc | 103

Guerrero –
We recently had a new roof put on by 5 Mexicans and one Chapin who drove from Richmond VA to our place two hours away to the west. It was a two day job and they returned home the first night. Later when I went to pay I talked to the owner to complement the crew. He said without his two Latino crews that come from Richmond he would not be able to do non-commercial jobs. He said he pays them $32.50 and hour and both parties benefit. His experience is that local citizens lacked the dedication to do this hard work even at that wage.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Aug 24 2018 20:43 utc | 104

karlof1 @102. Sure, there are rather easy and obvious solutions to the homeless crisis.
Back in the mid-1990s, I was doing archaeological work at the recently shut down Presidio Army base in SF. The place was brimming over with empty housing units. A group of us presented to the City a plan to open them up to homeless/under-housed people.
The City said that some of those units had lead paint or asbestos, and would cost too much to bring to code. So, instead of sleeping in homes that were absolutely good enough for the military just a couple years earlier, people were sleeping on sidewalks and breathing in exhaust fumes sleeping under highway overpasses.
The Western worker is being made obsolete. Those Chinese workers will be very happy, comparatively.

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 24 2018 20:44 utc | 105

Daniel @101–
Psycho, myself and others advocate turning privately based finance into a public utility. Here’s an example of similarly minded people trying to make that a reality in Los Angeles. I also think Hudson’s work on how the first large societal organizations handled the issue has great relevance to our search for solutions; this essay’s a good place to begin. I also linked to several other relevant items at his website in earlier comments on this thread. In his essays, Hudson also describes the enemies of such a Movement, how long they’ve existed, how invincible they’ve mostly been, and just how ruthless they were then and now.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 24 2018 20:48 utc | 106

Great metaphor in the crofters story, Debsisdead. I’d heard the vague outlines in the past but not the full story:

There is no easy way about this; resistance is tough and some will get hurt by the violence which greedies always mete out to those who stand up to them, in the long run however the casualties are far fewer than what occurs if we let greedies stomp us into the sh1t.

The truth. New Zealand’s Maoris got a better deal than most indigenous people as they fought for it. It took almost a century for Brit whitey to get them all at one another’s throats. And that’s when they lost 80% of the island in a single generation.
@Paul
You wrote: “B,please keep your nasty homophobia in check.” There’s no homophobia here, it’s just that sticking your genital parts into the genital parts of someone of the same sex, does not make anyone special or deserving of extra protection, care or privilege. Do whatever you like behind closed doors, kiss in the streets, no one cares. Just stop whining about your hard life of two income, no kids, no responsibilities hedonistic lives. I don’t expect special privileges for my sexual preferences. I don’t know why you do.
Women who whine about the days where women did not have the vote fall into the same category. Sadly it’s mostly the same ninnies who are defending women wandering around in the niqab and burka in Western society. No one should be allowed to wander around with their face covered. Facial covering is not even a religious issue at the core. The right to masks gives the criminals an advantage over us and law enforcement, whether they are anarchist rioters (Antifa), Al Queda or moped thieves in London.
Frankly I’d like us to all think about putting a stop to ever expanding economic production (expansion is the life blood of capitalism) and the destruction of Planet Earth.
We don’t need more immigrants, we need less people on this earth. Only the capitalists need more people, to “guarantee a return on their investment”. The only investment we are collectively making right now is in the poisoning of our planet and the sixth great extinction event. We are already in the middle of it, btw. More genus of flora and fauna have disappeared in the last fifty years than the previous two thousand. Human beings are accelerating extinction one thousand times.
Of course there are different ways to get fewer humans on earth. Prince Philip recommends viral extinction:

I just wonder what it would be like to be reincarnated in an animal whose species had been so reduced in numbers than it was in danger of extinction. What would be its feelings toward the human species whose population explosion had denied it somewhere to exist… I must confess that I am tempted to ask for reincarnation as a particularly deadly virus to contribute something to solving overpopulation.

It’s pretty clear what they elite have planned for us and lower wages are the least of our problems.
If we don’t collectively put our heads together to minimise destructive consumption (going out to eat at the neighbourhood pub if they source sustainable local food which doesn’t have to be transported 3000km to the table is non-destructive consumption, so is hiring someone to iron your shirts depending on how much energy s/he burns doing it), there will be no one alive to argue about left or right or orangoutangs, whether presidents or former secretaries of state. This destruction of the biosphere (including both the oceans and the two arctics at this point) is so obvious an issue and such an urgent and important a problem, I cannot believe it’s not our number one priority as a society.
Extinction events are very late to be perceived and very hard to stop once started (something like a car accident: by the time you know you are in it, it’s nearly impossible to stop, images of your life flash before your eyes and split seconds go into incredible slow motion). We’re in the middle of one. After a brief moment of sanity during the protest movements in the seventies where we collectively decided to try to improve our environment, both the Americans and the Chinese have said damn the torpedoes, we’re putting increased economic activity at any cost our priority.
Perhaps rats are stupid, low, cunning creatures. At this point, they’ve got nothing on human beings. Our collective intelligence spent on instruments of war and biosphere destruction. Swine take better care of their pens (ironically the Netherlands is collapsing under a sea of “economically viablepig shit).

Posted by: Uncoy | Aug 24 2018 20:55 utc | 107

karlof1. @107. Yes, i’m one of those who promote public finance.
My question to psycho is “how do we get it?” But I see he answered it again. ie. “It’ll just naturally evolve once people know about it.”
Power concedes nothing without a struggle. Private finance controls most of the world. The same octopus that is behind the Federal Reserve and IMF has its tentacles in the AIIP and BRICS.
How do we take control from them?
https://popularresistance.org/brics-leaders-are-reinforcing-not-replacing-the-global-system-of-power/

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 24 2018 21:09 utc | 108

@108 uncoy.. good post. thanks..regarding pig farming.. i mentioned how the issue of eating greater amounts of pork doesn’t appear to phase the chinese.. according to karlof1, the chinese have also abandoned the 1 child policy, and believe a greater number of people on the planet is sustainable.. i can’t see it myself and would like to quote one comment you made again – “Frankly I’d like us to all think about putting a stop to ever expanding economic production (expansion is the life blood of capitalism) and the destruction of Planet Earth.”
thanks for your post..

Posted by: james | Aug 24 2018 21:39 utc | 109

@ Daniel who seems to not value the power of knowledge.
Your wrote: “Power concedes nothing without a struggle.”
That struggle is educating the masses about what our current social contract is….private economic lifeblood instead of public.
How do you not see the peril and effort in this undertaking and give it the credibility you give violence?
Why do continue to call for efforts along the low road of our species? There is no evolutionary success (IMO) unless you travel the high road…..the Hopi way as it has been described here.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 25 2018 0:00 utc | 110

Daniel #29- you are out of mind..Sanders most popular politician in US ????

Posted by: sejmon | Aug 25 2018 0:04 utc | 111

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 24, 2018 8:00:08 PM | 111
How do you not see the peril and effort in this undertaking and give it the credibility you give violence?.
Once again, psycho you libelously misrepresent anything and everything I’ve ever written here… or anywhere.

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 0:10 utc | 112

Posted by: sejmon | Aug 24, 2018 8:04:41 PM | 112
“Daniel #29- you are out of mind..Sanders most popular politician in US ????”
Perhaps I am, but I also read, and know how to do web searches. The fact remains that Sanders is by far the most popular, and has been for years.
2018, 72% approval rating
https://morningconsult.com/2018/04/12/americas-most-and-least-popular-senators/
2017 FOX NEWZ!!!! 61% approval (nearly 20 points above Trump)
https://www.businessinsider.com/most-popular-politician-in-the-us-bernie-sanders-fox-news-poll-2017-3

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 0:21 utc | 113

Non violent revolutions are rare except when elite driven (eg Soviet Union and Eastern bloc out of envy for Western elites much higher wealth). One comes to mind which was the Philippines in 1986 a few years after Aquinos assination and after a questionable election. The homogeneous population and an important role played by the church determined the outcome
I dont see the same conditions in the West and fear any successful revolution will be elite driven to favor the elites
Maybe someone has some examples of peaceful revolutions that have been driven from the bottom without one faction of the elites driving it.

Posted by: Pft | Aug 25 2018 0:54 utc | 114

Psychohistorian @111–
Ah yes, The Hopi Way–far more than a funny jazz skit. Yes, the toil and effort required to educate is the great challenge. It was surmounted by the Populists of the late 19th century who went door-to-door doing the very definition of a Grass-Roots Mobilization. They gained control of several states and a fair portion of Congress. But they failed to attain effective solidarity with urban labor and African-Americans (Jim Crow hadn’t set-in yet); and the Movement’s energy dissipated upon fusing with the WJ Bryan’s Democrat Party, although they didn’t disappear completely. Similar rousing occurred during the Depression, but the war killed off any further Progressive Movement, Wallace’s 1948 POTUS bid losing handily.
Total dedication and the utmost effort beyond what most people would consider doing under normal circumstances is what’s required by Tens of millions of people from all sectors of society. That’s what it will take to make most anything happen for the Commonfolk. Extraordinary. Medal of Honor efforts. It’s a Class War!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2018 2:39 utc | 115

OT: @Pft
I just added some extra information to your last post of our discussion last week, thinking maybe you’d be interested in the article “My Personal Memories as Deng Xiaoping’s Interpreter: From Oriana Fallaci to Kim Il-sung to Gorbachev” written by his English interpreter Zhang Weiwei. 158, 159 & 160
The video in 160 is a discussion in which Zhang argues that Western liberal democracy may be right for the West, but would be wrong for China. He had a famous discussion with Francis Yamakuya in 2011 rebutting the “End of History” proclaim. He wrote an article published on NYT arguing that good governance trumps democracy . Worth reading if you haven’t heard about him.

Posted by: lulu | Aug 25 2018 2:45 utc | 116

@ karlof1 who wrote:

Total dedication and the utmost effort beyond what most people would consider doing under normal circumstances is what’s required by Tens of millions of people from all sectors of society. That’s what it will take to make most anything happen for the Commonfolk. Extraordinary. Medal of Honor efforts. It’s a Class War!

Nicely stated. Thanks for the support.
And from Daniel I get claims of personal injury instead of addressing my arguments directly on their merit…..all MoA barflies know what dog whistles are Daniel and you are using them if not encouraging violence implicitly by dissing any non-violent approaches….such as mine….and feigning personal injury….sigh

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 25 2018 3:10 utc | 117

Lulu@117. Thanks for that. I will check it out soon. I do agree with your portrayal of Zhangs thoughts although to me liberal means neoliberalism and it mixes with Democracy like oil and water so is not suitable for anyone but the elites. However, Democracy theoretically is meant to ensure good governance does not go bad. Obviously not the case. I have lived in a number of non Democracratic countries which appeared to provide good governance with benign rulers . The buck stops here in those places as no other party to blame. In Democracies its always the other party to blame and the illusion that change is one election away pacifies the population. Nothing ever changes,at least not for the better except for the elites. Perhaps thats why the elites chose Democracy?

Posted by: Pft | Aug 25 2018 3:51 utc | 118

psychohistorian @118–
I hope you’ll soon find the time to read this remarkable symposium transcript that might become a tool to upend the elite applecart. Hudson’s asked the crucial question at the end and replies:
“Well you’re right, that’s the problem: How do you popularize it all? What do you do today? The first thing is I think you have to frame it in the big picture….
“And you need a multi-pronged approach to fight on four or five fronts. You need academics so that nobody can say you don’t know what you’re talking about. You need an organ, a periodical; you need books; you need to make use of the Internet; you need films; and you need a political group. You need to institutionalize this idea and give it a critical mass of coherence, and I think that’s what you folks are doing.” [My Emphasis]
What!? “folks are doing” already, in 2017?! The Union Theological Seminary, at Columbia University. And those folks trying to establish a public bank in Los Angeles I linked to earlier. And I bet they’re lots of other small, disparate groups doing their own thing to try and foment change. What they lack is a cohesive center to mount concentrated political action. What the Populists discovered as they went from town-to-town was the very high degree of shared concerns and problems that provided the manna for solidarity. But they’d have never discovered that basic fact of life if they hadn’t gone slowly, painfully from small town to small town, from one stump speech to the next–without any electronic devices, paved roads, air conditioning or central heating: horse and buggy! They did it! What’s our excuse?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2018 4:00 utc | 119

@101
The key is private property.
If we agree that the right to private property is a desirable feature of a modern society, then by decentralizing or, at least, altering the monetary system, private property could be restored.
One of the problems of our present monetary system is that by engaging in economic activity, we exchange our skills, time and ideas against money.
Ergo, we exchange something we own outright (divinely? naturally?) for something we do not own.
The money we earn however:
a does not belong to us physically
b we owe tax on
c is constantly devalued by perpetual fiscal deficits
Thus, our current monetary system, undermines and, eventually, precludes the right to private property.
The majority of individuals that are dependent on a salary, don’t stand a chance in this monetary system and, eventually, will be fully dispossessed of anything they own.
Entrepreneurs can only push back in time the moment of final destitution but most will, likewise, succumb.
Hence concentration of wealth.
It is only a matter of time
By reinstating full rights to private property, should lead to a distribution of wealth amongst economic entities that will be allowed to keep the fruits of their labor hence spreading the wealth

Posted by: guidoamm | Aug 25 2018 4:39 utc | 120

@121 guidoamm.. re private property… it seems to me i have the exact opposite view on this then you..
the property is being bought up by the 1% and the 99% have next to nothing as i see it.. this silly concept of private property ownership is all about power – not of the little guy, but of the big guy… take the land in north america… some european settlers came and claimed it as their own… they believed in private property and ownership of it.. it is a concept foreign to the indigenous people that were here prior to their arrival.. so frankly, it will have to be explained to me differently then i understand it, cause i don’t see it.. i see it the exact opposite as you articulate it.. cheers – james

Posted by: james | Aug 25 2018 4:47 utc | 121

@ James 122
Indeed, some indigenous societies do not contemplate private property. It is particularly the case for animist communities in the Amazon basin for example. Historically speaking however, land rights (i.e. property) have pitted tribes in fierce battles since time immemorial.
At all events, mine is not an attempt at white washing the atrocities that man has perpetrated in the past. White man is not the only one to have exterminated scores of peoples. Africans, Arabs, Japanese, Papuans have done so for millennia.
White man happens to have been the most successful at it…. for now.
My comment clearly stated: “if we agree that private property is a desirable feature of a modern society”.
Our monetary system precludes private property.
Hence individuals that depend on a salary do not stand a chance in this monetary system. Not in the long run
Our monetary system is a pyramid scheme. People that get in first actually get something out of it. It is the majority that get in at later stages however, that are totally shafted.

Posted by: guidoamm | Aug 25 2018 4:59 utc | 122

@ guidoamm and james about private property
Historically private property has been the prime vehicle for the storage of “wealth”. I agree with james that it is disrespectful of our place in the universe, this ownership thing but still understand the need/desire for a store of “wealth” that goes beyond current consumption. We probably will disagree as well about how much of that wealth is because of global commons that each individual must help pay for…..it ties in with the individualism/collective aspects of different societies.
@ karlof1 with the Michael Hudson link….thanks….I am starting to see the light at the end of the house sale/moving tunnel and so will start reading more of your links. I do wish Michael and those folks would have gone more into the downside of the private finance incentives on society. I do hope his work gets much public visibility and discussion.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 25 2018 5:08 utc | 123

Historically speaking, it is only when individuals have been allowed the right to property that societies evolved into higher forms of organization giving rise to complex societies.
Arithmetically speaking and as is historically evident, complex societies have always, inevitably, succumbed under the weight of their own complexity however.
Nonetheless, the road to complex organization starts with the right to private property.
Collectivization has never resulted into a higher form of organized society.
Even one of the most successful collectivities I am familiar with, the Damanhoors of Italy that have been going strongishly since the late 60s, have had to re-instate some form of private property rights for their members for the survival of the community.
We could debate the desirability to achieve higher forms of social complexity of course. But both you and I are children of a complex society.
Unless the idea is to drop everything and join up with communities in the Amazon basin, our effort therefore, should be aimed at finding ways to ensure the survival and well being of our societies…

Posted by: guidoamm | Aug 25 2018 5:13 utc | 124

@ psychohistorian
Indeed, I do not advocate that taxes should not be paid.
I am fully cognizant that some form of central organization is necessary although, personally, I would be partial of a federation of smaller communities rather than one central behemoth that tries to rule everyone’s life as in the case of the EU for example.
In a context where the monetary system is arbitrarily centralized AND where government runs perpetual fiscal deficits however, indeed I do have a bone to pick with the authorities that, in so doing, are driving the concentration of wealth.
And just so I am not misunderstood.
In the past 70 years of presumed political plurality in the West, communist, fascists and all political stripes in between have behaved in exactly the same manner. All, down to the last one, have run and are running perpetual fiscal deficits.
That being the case, despite variations in scenery along the way, all politicians regardless of persuasion, have brought us the concentration of wealth.
To varying degrees, this is so in the USA as it is in Germany, Italy, Sweden or Greece or anywhere you care to look.
This is because concentration of profit is enshrined in the monetary dynamic.
In this monetary system, political persuasion the the bickering that derives thereof, is but a distraction and has nothing whatsoever to do with the concentration of wealth which is driven by the stewards of the monetary system.

Posted by: guidoamm | Aug 25 2018 5:24 utc | 125

Yet again psychohistorian confuses violents with self-defence. And takes it out of context. Totally ignoring the violents done to the victem. Victem silencing is not nice!
Tannenhouser asked psychistorian recently — what do we do when they come at us with a big stick ? Very good question! We got a vague hyperthetical utopian reply! But I for one would like a literal answer.
Your stood there in the road, the govenment are coming at you with big sticks, so psychohistorian think quick !

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 25 2018 12:01 utc | 126

Leftist movements succeed during times of acute societal distress, when the social order has broken down and many people gp hungry.
Fascism flourishes during the periods leading up to the convulsions while society is in the process of breaking down. People know in their hearts their worlds are crumbling yet still cling to any slim hope for reversal and redemption which opportunistic fascists can easily pervert for their own gain.
In Europe and USA we are in this preliminary epoch before the fall. The world as we knew it postwar is on the verge of collapse. Steep population growth and climate change resulting from, in fact, worldwide gains in prosperity from which fewer and fewer profit.
Today many of the 99% cling to their illusory hopes for a better life and place their faith in charlatans.
The true advent of a just, sharing society will never be realized except from the ashes of immense disaster. People only realize how much we need each other when survival is at stake.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 25 2018 12:21 utc | 127

I remember the time for the democratic party which culminated in McGovern becoming the nominee. In the year plus run up to the convention, there were literally tons of articles written about minorities, women etc rights and how to enshrine them in the platform and the party rules. All over the print media and on tv and radio. Not much talk about helping the average joe and jane 6pack. At the time, it sure seemed like the Nixon party was the only one to care for the 6pack family.
The democrats were beat like dogs in the general election.
Note I am not blaming their nominee. Just the activists who managed to seize control of the party.
Now it seems like everywhere, print, news, blogs, radio- you name it- all the democrats seem to care about is illegals, lgbt whatever and impeaching the president for this russian collusion nonsense. The average 6pack family is again left one choice for who they think cares about them and their issues.
History is definitely rhyming nowadays and my bet is the dems are about to take another ass whupping.

Posted by: morongobill | Aug 25 2018 14:10 utc | 128

@128 donkeytale
The best case study of reference in fascism is the rise of the nazis. They ascended DURING a time of acute societal distress (Weimar years).
The second claim in your post needs some work.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 25 2018 14:18 utc | 129

NemesisCalling
Great point about the Nazis. However, I would still argue during Weimar Republic, bad as things were, Germany wasn’t in as dire a position as say, Russia in 1917.
There is always a defensive element to the sociology of fascism. German values “needed” defending and the Nazis promised a resurrection.
I’m talking more about devastation reaching a point where there is nothing left to defend.
Still, I get your point and adit I may be shaving hairs a bit too fine with my argument.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 25 2018 15:41 utc | 130

Also, I seem to remember from history class (perhaps imperfectly) the Nazis were actually a functioning part of the Weimar republican government and were invited into power by von Hindenburg in something of an orderly transition, of course based on governing party’s fear of a supposedly brewing communist revolution led by jews.
They only became the monsters we remember gradually over a period of 2-3 years.
A vital reminder for those who may be pooh-poohing alarmist threats about Trump and GOPs potential to overthrow the US tricameral system during the next 1-2 years.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 25 2018 15:59 utc | 131

Posted by: karlof1 @116
“It’s a Class War!”
Why do you continuously call for the brutal violation of the bodies of peaceful, loving capitalists whom, by your own words, merely need more “education?”
Obviously, all we have to do is teach the psychopaths in control of private finance that what they’ve been doing has been accidentally causing unspeakable harm to humans, all life, and the environment of the entire earth, and they will join hands with us and, singing Kubayah will dance to the inevitable utopian future.
/s

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 17:16 utc | 132

@123 guidoamm.. thanks.. i agree with you as i understand it.. regarding your post @125… sounds like you have studied this much more then i.. i still believe the concept of private property is the wrong way to go, in spite of what you refer to as ‘complex society’… it seems to me that the financial system works at converting this idea of private property into money – that is some of the complexity of our society today.. a corporation can buy a large track of land and strip it of it’s trees or minerals or water without any responsibility to the greater world it is a part of.. that is all for the mutual fund holders or shareholders and it is condoned by gov’ts at this point with little to no emphasis on sustainability or sacredness or anything of that nature.. i think there are other alternatives to your final statement @125, but perhaps belittling the idea of dropping this obsession with private property is your intent their? not sure.. thanks either way for your additional comments..
@128 donkeytale.. good comment you make here – “The true advent of a just, sharing society will never be realized except from the ashes of immense disaster. People only realize how much we need each other when survival is at stake.”
@133 daniel last paragraph, lol… we can’t even do that here at moa with those who periodically make random posts on whatever!!

Posted by: james | Aug 25 2018 17:33 utc | 133

Posted by: Pft |@115
“Maybe someone has some examples of peaceful revolutions that have been driven from the bottom without one faction of the elites driving it.”
My favorite example of an almost entirely non-violent revolution led by the 99% was Costa Rica.
Costa Rica was, of course, a classic “banana republic” with a puppet dictator installed by the US. But while everybody was busy dealing with the impacts of WW II, the people of Costa Rica kicked out the fascists and developed a vibrant democratic republic.
The major “battle’ of the revolution was when the leader of the revolution (a school teacher) and some of his buddies walked into the main radio/tv station, sat down in front of the mic, and broadcast to the country that the puppet regime was being replaced.
Pretty much, everyone in the country said, “Oh good,” and went on with their lives. Even most of the police and military said, “well, I heard it on the radio, so it must be true,” and so stopped trying to put down the protests, and swore their alligiance to the revolution.
So, the revolutionaries appointed their leader as the first president of the newly free state of Costa Rica. The President did two things.
1. He disbanded the miltiary (and Costa Rica has not had an army ever since).
2. He resigned. He said, first, I’m a school teacher, not a politician, and am unsuited to lead a government. And two, Presidents are elected, not appointed, so we need to hold elections.
Another has been the Iranian Revolution of 1978/79, which was carried out almost entirely by industrial workers, students and teachers. Through an escalating series of mass strikes and targeted boycotts, along with street protest across the country, the revolutionaries were able to show the great majority of Iranians that ousting the brutal, CIA/MI6 installed dictator, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, was vulnerable to toppling. They could restore the secular, socialist republic which had been growing under PM Mossadegh. prior to the Ayatollah Kashani turning on him, and aligning with the Western powers, leading to the famous 1953 coup.
But, in 1979, eventually, a large enough number of the ‘enforcers” (ie. police and military) refused orders to massacre or at least imprison the protesters, and the Shah and many of the 0.1% elitists scooped up their ill-gotten wealth and fled Iran.
Some argue that the South African Revolution that toppled Apartheid was also a non-violent one, though branches did engage in genuinely brutal, and even terroristic violence. I will say that it became a non-violent revolution (at least unilaterally) once Nelson Mandela (who had been an avowed terrorist) foreswore violence.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that revolutions have a far better chance of succeeding in attaining their goals if they are led by the 99%, and remain nonviolent.

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 18:03 utc | 134

donkeytale @128 brings up the necessity to shift to a sharing economy. Please spend 17minutes to listen to this presentation by Mallence Bart-Williams, a brilliant and forward-thinking (I’d say truly revolutionary) woman from what she calls “the richest country on earth.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfnruW7yERA

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 20:19 utc | 135

Daniel @ 135
That is a must watch video !!! Respect

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 25 2018 21:06 utc | 136

Thanks, Mark2… and to James as well. At least in terms of comments posted, you guys seem to be the only ones who’ve understood what I’ve been writing.
A psychologist friend of mine visits MoA occasionally, though he’s chosen not to comment. But he had some fascinating explanations for why certain barflies seemingly deliberately misrepresent my words.
I’ve chosen to basically disengage from those disingenuous provocations, and continue to strive to learn and teach in the revolutionary sharing economy of ideas Bernhard has created for us.
Please, everyone take that 17 minutes to watch Malice’s presentation @135. Genius in praxis.

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 25 2018 22:52 utc | 137

@137 daniel.. that is interesting about your friend and your view here… i haven’t been thrown off by your comments and have had some good conversations with you too! thanks for encouraging me to watch mallence’s stand up ted talk.. i didn’t watch it all as i had a hard time being able to hear her! however, i saw the movie inside of it and that was uplifting… cheers james

Posted by: james | Aug 26 2018 0:36 utc | 138

Daniel @ 137
In 1984 I was lucky enough to ‘fall in with’ a comunity of people, with that same deep wisdom shown perfectly in your video ! It changed my life ! When your shown the truth it’s a mind blowing experience , you become aware of the ignorance all around you. But the truth is the truth ! You tell people and you see them close down and shut it out. I understand why they do that. We try to enlighten them but they see it as a threat to all they know now and there life in their past. Don’t give up Daniel ! World wide we are the majority. It’s the 1 % as you now, all the other’s are unaware . If they don’t kill us they make us stronger! It helps to share the burden ! Trust me I won’t weaken ! I never did ever. Long live M O A !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 26 2018 8:55 utc | 139

@Daniel. You are aware of course that what Mallence advocates for so does Phychohistorian, at least to my mind. I think in the western world we are ALL victims of our own making. Leonard Cohen said it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lin-a2lTelg. How to bring everyone to the same page of the book we are all reading is the thing…..a tipping point WILL be reached. Matters not if it’s passive like psychohistorian or take charge and make it happen like Mallence. As to violence. Violence will be used for and against on various levels to various extent, as in nature. Both/and not either/or is the reality we haven’t come to grip with yet. Thanks for the link to Mallence and her lions.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 26 2018 13:14 utc | 140

@ Tannenhouser who calls my actions and call for action seemingly passive.
If I was passive would I even be making comments at MoA?
Is beating a textual one note Samba about private/public finance at MoA for years passive?
Yes, I believe in non-violence as a person while understanding intensity of action exists that may be called violence with or without hurtful intention. If I am attacked I take no responsibility for the violence that may come out of me in my defense. That said, I don’t believe that one can build a non-violent society without a non-violent intention during instantiation.
And I will continue to assert that evolution away from might-makes-right aspects of social organization are paramount to our survival as a species.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 26 2018 17:24 utc | 141

Fucking Donkeytale, havent seen you in 10 years and you’re still shilling for the Dem establishment. Nice to see you admitting(having to admit) that DailyKos is a CIA op though. It’s the small things in this life.
But really, could you just no longer contain yourself? You were starting to make friends and everything.

(Nazis) only became the monsters we remember gradually over a period of 2-3 years.
A vital reminder for those who may be pooh-poohing alarmist threats about Trump and GOPs potential to overthrow the US tricameral system during the next 1-2 years.

“Trump is just like Hitler! be VEWY VEWY AFWAID.”
Quit answering this crusty old troll.

Posted by: sejomoje | Aug 26 2018 20:55 utc | 142

The same thing was true in England with the Labour Party but by a fluke a left wing socialist leader was elected. The Democrats have to choose Bernie Sanders to win.

Posted by: Ray Visino | Aug 26 2018 21:47 utc | 143

Phychohistorian. With respect, compared to the reciprocal violence loop seemingly advocated by some here; yes your one note samba is quite passive. My comment was intended as a defense of your position from those who slyly in my op misrepresent your samba. Say by insinuating that a psychiatrist finds fault or you are victim blaming.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 26 2018 22:17 utc | 144

Tannenhouser @140
As I showed @134, nonviolent revolutions have succeeded. I do not accept that violence is necessary, and in fact believe strongly that it harms revolutions for justice.
But you are correct that the PTSB will use violence against us, and are doing so right this minute. Norman Finkelstein presented a brilliant explanation of how Gandhi’s non-violent resistance works… and basically it boils down to having to accept that violence may well be visited upon us.
As such, non-violent resistance requires greater bravery than violent resistance.
Non-violence succeeds when those willing to be violent are either revulsed by what they are doing, or are forced to stop by others with more power who are revulsed by what is being done.
https://therealnews.com/stories/will-gaza-march-end-in-israels-worst-killings-yet-3-3
http://normanfinkelstein.com/2012/03/03/norman-finkelsteins-second-new-book-what-gandhi-says-about-nonviolence-resistance-and-courage/

Posted by: Daniel | Aug 26 2018 22:30 utc | 145

How would you have stopped Hitler ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 27 2018 7:34 utc | 146

Socialist nonsense. One dollar, one vote politics and press corruption go a long way in destroying nations but the US doesn’t need a new “public” program. Voting for a new exaction on the productive is stupid as existing health and pension programs are bankrupt. Medicaid is taking a quarter of state revenues and growing like crabgrass.
Illegal immigration is yet another assault on the nation as Western are especially weak and stupid in letting foreign parasites in. Western nations are wildly fiscally incontinent and US expenditure of $32M per hour for foreign military snipe hunts and aggressive war is Exhibit A for that.
Giving voters “what they want” is what has destroyed the West and nowhere is it possible to stand against voter stupidity and govern with the health of the nation in mind. A super elite owning massive chunks of everything is a gigantic problem, just as social welfare fanaticism is. But, like the Swedes who want free candy and to be tucked in at night while they tolerate third world inundation, all Western peoples will shirk effort and intellectual inquiry and “fight” for your nonsense leftist free stuff.
It’s too late in the day to think that all Western nations need to prosper and regain sanity is for voters to get more free stuff.

Posted by: Col. B. Bunny | Aug 27 2018 8:26 utc | 147

Bunny @ 147
Your a product of nazi brain washing ! You people all sound like the same nasty tape recording ! Don’t be such a parrot !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 27 2018 10:18 utc | 148

For the poster with an obvious Nazi fetish and no cogent explanation as to what one might be.
https://consentfactory.org/2018/06/15/awaiting-the-putin-nazi-apocalypse/
Your welcome.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 27 2018 16:44 utc | 149

Thanks for that thought provoking link Tannenhouser @ 149
Very thought provoking i’l I just skimmed over it and will read it in more detail a bit later.
He’s totally wrong of course ! He say’s where are the concentration camps ? How can he be so blind !
There are 70 ooo ooo displaced refugees in the world at the momment over half of which are in refugee camps ! I beleve it was the British who coined the phrase concerntration camps in S Africa. And then there are the vast prison population in USA slave labour ! You have half the world total in your jails !
The USA have invaded 75 country’s since the last world war ! If you include c I a led regeme change that rises to 120 ! How does that compare to hitler. Granted that’s before trump but he’s got his eye on Iran Korea Syria ect. I could go on if you like.
While we’re here I wonder,I obviously have badly upset you at some stage but I’m sad you seem to have taken things so personal. Some of your comments were just pure insult with no debait. Can I suggest we debait with out the insults ? This is a class blog don’t lets spoil that.
Regarding the passive v self defence debait. How would pacifists have stopped hitler.
Lastly I have no hitler fetish I just hate the uncaring brutality in this world !

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 27 2018 18:04 utc | 150

Debate? like at 148 you mean? Shakes head….
How would pacifists have stopped Hitler? One word….Attrition.
Only if what we believe we know about Hitler is actually true anyways.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 27 2018 19:02 utc | 151

Tannenhouser @ 151
Re-148 I dispise the far right that’s freedom of speech, they like to bully people ! I like to bully them, it’s the only thing they understand. There main policy is picking on people weaker than them ! But that’s just a cover for there own weakness and confused ignorance. Same as trump really.
Attretion! How’s that going so far ? It’s obviously not your family being slaughtered like cattle ! That’s just armchair pontification. People are dying right now !
Last point of yours ! Please don’t tell me your a houlacost denyer !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 27 2018 19:28 utc | 152

Hmmmmm………..Nice debate, thanks. (I redacted all the other stuff I had in reply to your idea of debate) I think I will just be done with your nonsense.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 27 2018 19:46 utc | 153

I know you now and you know me now ! We’re done here. I hope you too get the future you deserve !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 27 2018 20:00 utc | 154

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Posted by: seo box | Aug 28 2018 8:56 utc | 155