Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 22, 2018

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-36

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

Charlie Rowley, allegedly poisoned by a 'Novichok', has been released from hospital. There is no word of his whereabout.

[Meta remark: 519 comments - are you nuts? When am I supposed to read those?]


A nice history piece with some surprising insights: Why Did the Dutch Give Up Manhattan for Nutmeg? Because the spice must flow ...

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on July 22, 2018 at 17:20 UTC | Permalink

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Daniel @ 98 Thank you! Great material. Quite responsive to question and useful to project.

grieved @ 70 Eisenstein' Sacred Economics. Thanks. This is the what I am looking for!

james @ 78

"@42 guerrero... that is interesting! hey, i always thought the
state of oaxaca had the most indigenous folks in it.. what language do they speak? i have
been to oaxaca 3 or 4 times and love it down their...

Oaxaca, Puebla, Guerrero, Chiapas = the heartland of South Mexico with many traditional agriculturalist communities. There are numerous indigenous languages spoken in Oaxaca; dozens of them. I think the Mixteca language from the Monte Alban culture is predominant.

BMJ @ 65 Book on Buddhist Economics by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Thank you.

Russ @ 53 Debt by David Graeber Thank you.

Psychohistorian @47 Potlatch gift-giving feast by the native Americans. Thank you.

If you think of more 'Gifting Economy' references, by all means let me add them to study.

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 23 2018 22:38 utc | 101

Guerrero @48 most economies have been about subsistence- get enough food to eat and then enjoy it.
That is why the great complaint, from all the various founders of capitalist society has always been of the 'laziness' of the ordinary people. The English labourers were 'lazy' always preferring drinks and socialising to additional work. The same complaint was made about Africans-always dancing!- Amerindians, refusing to work in plantations or mines-they had to be forced- Pacific Islanders- everyone caused the same offence in the eyes of capitalisys greedy to devour their labour power. Russian peasants were terrible for malingering once they had got enough to eat. As to the Irish- they are proverbial both for working hard and not working unless they had to.
James C Scott- Against the Grain is worth reading as are his other books, Weapons of the Weak, The Moral Economy of the Peasant and the Art of not Being Governed.
The truth is that, thoughout history, most people would much rather not be working, provided that that didn't mean they had to starve to death. The basis of capitalism is that it takes away all chance of living a full life unless one works for wages, producing surplus value and giving up all hope of living a full life.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 23 2018 22:46 utc | 102

Browder and the Magnitski Act are just a small part of the massive deception taking place.
Back in 2014, after some searching I was able to put together a reasonably accurate picture of the evolution of Russia from 2000 till that point. Much information I found at the time - Russian and western doco's, text sources ect - can no longer be found, now hidden by search engines or removed.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 23 2018 22:46 utc | 103

bevin @ 102

most people would much rather not be working,
provided that that didn't mean they had to starve to death.

James C Scott- Against the Grain is worth reading as are his other books,
Weapons of the Weak, The Moral Economy of the Peasant and the Art of not Being Governed.

Thank you for your contribution to this research project which advances by leaps and bounds!

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 23 2018 22:53 utc | 104


Good question. I see Daniel gave a very good answer . Indeed hunter-gatherers were the best examples of a gift economy, or as Marx-Endahl called in Primitive Communism. The hunter’s status was not determined by how much of the kill he ate, but rather by what he brought back for others. Survival depended on the community working together

The neolithic revolution led to the turning point from primitive communism to class society as it was followed by private ownership and slavery, and inequality .

I will focus more on the more recent past and Western Civilization. Not an expert in this field by any means. However
during the so called Middle Ages the Christian Church was responsible for much of the gift giving, lets call it charity. People of means were expected to give tithes to the church, which then used the money to provide for the poor. This was also true in Jewish communities since both religions followed Mosaic Law which demanded the poor be taken care of,

Reformation led to a weakening of the church and with its emphasis on individualism , personal responsibility and labor, and its acceptance of usury. Dealing with poverty started to transition more to the state and more secular entities.

A major impact was social Darwinism in the 1800's. A former Preacher named Sumner wrote a pamphlet in 1883 whose sentiments linger today. It was entitled "What Social Classes Owe to Each Other". He insisted that the social classes owe each other nothing, synthesizing Darwin's findings with free enterprise Capitalism for his justification. "According to Sumner, those who feel an obligation to provide assistance to those unequipped or under-equipped to compete for resources, will lead to a country in which the weak and inferior are encouraged to breed more like them, eventually dragging the country down. Sumner also believed that the best equipped to win the struggle for existence was the American businessman, and concluded that taxes and regulations serve as dangers to his survival"

Darwin himself felt that "social instincts" such as "sympathy" and "moral sentiments" also evolved through natural selection, and that these resulted in the strengthening of societies in which they occurred. In Descent of Man:

"The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. For, firstly, the social instincts lead an animal to take pleasure in the society of its fellows, to feel a certain amount of sympathy with them, and to perform various services for them."

Moving ahead to today and closer to home the US post WWII US economy was in some sense a gift community with up to a 90% tax rate and much more middle class charity in the community for the poor. It was not perfect by any means, especially in urban and extreme rural areas, but income inequality was a lot less than today. Strong unions gave corporations cost certainty and workers job security with be benefits. High income taxes reduced the demand for huge bonuses and salaries by CEO's and owners so giving more to workers to grow the business for future capital gains (which were taxed at lower rates) was the priority

Moving into the 60's Civil Rights and Social Welfare to eliminate poverty in the cities and rural areas took us to the door of Utopia, despite the civil unrest due to the CIA/MIC war in Vietnam and the assassinations of nationalist/civil rights leaders.

Entering the 1970's with the Vietnam War winding down, relations with the Soviets and China improving, womens rights, creation of the EPA and Nixons talk of universal health care , and the CIA under attack the neoliberal elites backed by the MIC/CIA pushed Nixon out and the Neoliberal Globalists coup was completed

From 1975 till now its been a downward slide for equality in the US. Clinton gutted the Social Welfare System in 1996 and Trump will finish it off. Income inequality has never been higher

In Europe which was more devastated by WWII the European system placed more emphasis on a communitarian belief system. Social welfare in Europe tends to be more generous and more inclusive. Social benefits related to health care, housing, child care, employ- ment, and income support tend to be applicable to the entire population rather than limited benefits targeted to particular groups as in the US.

The neoliberal backed EU and its immigration policies is now seeking to dismantle many of these programs due to its fiscal austerity demands. Europe is following right behind the US

In 1944, "Vice President Wallace penned an article in the New York Times, “The Danger of American Fascism,” that warned about the growing right-wing movement in the United States — words that resonate today with the emergence of extremists like the Koch brothers, the Tea Party, and the ultra-conservative wing of the Republican Party. Wallace wrote:

The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity... They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection."

He was prophetic

So where do we go from here to return to more equality and charity for the poor"

"Wallace told the Federal Council of Churches in 1933 that if the times would get more difficult "......they will be willing to join together in the modern adaptation of the theocracy of old."

Christian morality and the Social Gospel formed the fundamental inspiration behind his speeches.

Not being religious myself but it seems we might want to return to the Middle Ages, or at least get back to where we were 70 years ago. Unfortunately Christian and Judaism seems corrupted beyond repair. The Christian Nation US and Jewish Israel for example have the highest poverty rates among OECD nations

I dont see a way back , and no way forward to Utopia. Greed and perhaps something more sinister seems to be here to stay.

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 1:08 utc | 105

that James and someone else (sorry for the memory lag) posted is amazing!

It's a beautifully constructed and filmed piece of art... but also a piece of brilliant investigative journalism. That the filmmaker, Andrei Nekrasov is a Russian Federation and Putin critic adds enormous gravitas.

The scene half way through where Nekrasov presents the transcripts of Magnitsky's testimony to the German parliamentarian and her "assistant" (who apparently had compiled the case Ms. Beck presented) was priceless! I got the sense that Ms. Beck was realizing she'd been hoodwinked, but her assistant wanted to just end the discussion.

Browder couldn't come off more guilty.

In addition to getting US screenings cancelled, apparently they get it pulled whenever it appears on youtube. So, I'm going to spread the above around while it's still there.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 1:23 utc | 106

Chechen culture.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 1:45 utc | 107

Pft "I dont see a way back , and no way forward to Utopia. Greed and perhaps something more sinister seems to be here to stay."

I was trying to think of something more sinister than greed. Our imagination - we seem to be both blessed and cursed by it. It allows us to make tools and shelters from the elements, but it also brings in a darker side.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 2:04 utc | 108

Chechen military police in Syria.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 2:11 utc | 109

karlof1 @ 92

Thanks for the link to the Duran article but mostly to the early Putin speech at Valdai, one I hadn't seen before. (Comments were interesting also, as giving some French feedback on 'reasons' for attacking Libya - I had forgotten they were saying Bengazi residents were in danger of attack. Another 'intelligence' false fact?) Putin's responses were instructive, very sharp.

I was a little at sea on the Duran article also - I could see plenty of reasons for their claim about Russiagate in Putin's early remarks but not in the passages the article quoted. For instance, in describing the mess Russia was in after 1991, Putin says:

"...Practice has shown that a new national idea does not simply appear, nor does it develop according to market rules. A spontaneously constructed state and society does not work, and neither does mechanically copying other countries'experiences...the time when ready made lifestyle models could be installed in foreign states like computer programs has passed...we believe that every country is not exceptional, but unique, original, and benefits from equal rights, including the right to independently choose their own development path..."

Posted by: juliania | Jul 24 2018 2:18 utc | 110

"Bloomberg: 'America’s New World Order is Officially Dead' ”

Well, that phrasing will certainly be welcomed by a certain slice of Trump fan. The Globalists have been defeated in less than 2 years! Woo Hoo!

Actually, that would also reach a leftier, anti-empire/anti-war audience, too. Maybe fishing for some “crossover” Trump voters in 2020?

Time, as James so politely reminds me, will tell.

Anyway, Cartalucci does another fine job of describing Post WW II US polices, and his closing paragraph proposes some potential not many of us could disagree with.

As always, I do not see nation-states as the loci of power. Supra-national banks, trans-national corporations and Zionists dictate the policies of what I prefer to call AZ Empire. Any analysis of the US re. geopolitics that remains focused on nation-states is missing the lynchpin, IMO.

But mostly, I wanted to comment on this part:

“It would be US Army General Wesley Clark who best summarized US foreign policy… General Clark would also mention a later conversation he had at the Pentagon…

“We are going to start with Iraq and then we are going to move to Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran seven seven countries in five years… before the next great super power comes on to challenge us.”

General Wesley Clark - who was the NATO Supreme Commander when they destroyed the nation-state of Yugoslavia - did not refer to a “later conversation” where he got the “7 countries in 5 years” from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.

He was given that information within a couple of weeks of 9/11/01. First, he was told that the Pentagon planned to invade Iraq, for no apparent reason except they know how to destroy countries. Then a week later, he was told the plan had expanded to those 7 nations.

My point is not so much to correct Cartalucci’s timeline, but to make the point that Yugoslavia war-criminal Wesley Clark (who went on to become something of a hero to both the Democratic Partisans and the “Truth Community”) held onto that information for years. When the US was torn by concern that the Bush II Administration was trying to sell us a war on lies, he remained “a good soldier” and withheld that information which could have prevented that war.

And of course, had the Iraq War II been prevented, the other countries could have been protected, too. The entire Yinon Plan might have been left still-born at the Neo-Cons’ feet.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 2:24 utc | 111

Peter AU 1 @ 106:

I saw a bit of that video but there was no mention of the Chechen code of ethics called Konakhallah. This is a traditional code of ethics, in some respects comparable to the code of bushido among the samurai class of Japan before 1867, that predates Christianity and Islam among the Chechens and which along with other elements of Chechen culture was lost during the deportations in the 1860s (when Caucasian peoples fled to Ottoman Turkey after the Russian imperial army took control of their homelands) and the 1940s (when the Chechens were deported to Kazakhstan).

Two versions of the code of konakhallah at this link:

The blog also links to Lecha Ilyasov's book "The Diversity of Chechen Culture" which has a chapter on traditional Chechen ethics:

Posted by: Jen | Jul 24 2018 2:49 utc | 112

"I dont see a way back , and no way forward to Utopia. Greed and perhaps something more sinister seems to be here to stay."

There is a place in Australia called utopia. Pilger has documentary on it.
Daniel's post in this thread @98 was very good.
But the clock cannot be turned back.
Western civilization? = US arrogance.
Utopia? There will be no one solution fits all. I put up two links on Chechnya - second link was Chechen's in Syria.
Respect for other cultures is perhaps the nearest we will get to Utopia.
Reconciliation combined with destruction of irreconcilable jihadists. What/how does this translate to in the US west?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 2:56 utc | 113

@105 Pft - "Greed and perhaps something more sinister seems to be here to stay."

Nothing is permanent. All humans, in fact all sentient beings including animals, have the same ultimate nature with the same possibilities of wrongdoing and right doing. This at least is what the Buddha taught, and he's been proved correct in everything of his that I've been able to test personally. I have found him a reliable expert on the ways people tick.

This means that with each new person in the world there is the possibility for change, and with each existing person there is also the possibility for change, but usually much more slowly, because people get set in their ways. Indeed, habits compound habits, both up and down the ethical scale.

But this is why it remains important to think out loud the kind of world that would be fair. Your words may resonate among new people, and over time the old ones will die. In such a dynamic, the world will only become what we articulate it to be.

Nothing is here to stay. Not even any good we may create. We must strive every moment to create good, without either hope or despair.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2018 3:34 utc | 114

karlof1 @92

I don't believe that 'Russiagate' originated with this speech by Putin or even grew out of the sentiments Putin expressed. This claim is an attempt to give the anti-Russia movement a veneer of respectability and energize the Democratic base. Russia is certainly not the only country that has cultural values that differ from that of USA/West but, for example, we don't see white-hot anger toward Trump for not leading the charge against female genital mutilation.

IMHO establishment anger toward Trump is part of a strategy, not a knee-jerk reaction to Putin's views. That strategy is MAGA. It includes the effort to "turn the page" on the embarrassing Obama psy-op (pretending to be peaceful while conducting covert wars, among other things) and the good guy / bad guy set-up for negotiating with Putin. The US establishment would LOVE to pull Russia from China - but doesn't want to take ANY risks. Thus, the good guy/bad guy of Trump/Deep-State.

So the establishment's hatred toward Trump is really expressing their disappointment that Trump has failed. Putin is not playing ball (symbolized so well by Putin's giving Trump a ball during the press conference).

The 'peace deal' with Russia expires on Nov. 4th when the embargo on Iranian oil takes effect. That will create the conditions for a coup in Iran. Iran has said they will retailiate by closing the straits of Hormuz and China has said they will support Iran. What will Russia do?

The MAGA strategy - which includes the anti-Russia/pro-Russia duality - took shape after Crimea re-joined Russia and repeated Ukrainian attempts to subdue Donbas failed. The thought-leaders of MAGA are Kissinger, Hillary, and McCain - the most powerful foreign policy trio in the US. Their involvement explains why the establishment is so united.

How do I know this? Because I was one of the few that recognized when it began:

I was skeptical of Kissinger’s Op-ed of March 5th, saying (on April 28th): “Kissinger penned a “lets be reasonable” Op-ed in an attempt to head off Russian action and maintain the gains made via “facts on the ground”.

Kissinger again feels the need to join the public conversation but I see his contribution very differently than Banger. My reading is that Kissinger is asserting that the US can and should do whatever it takes to keep the US preeminent – even if that means ignoring allies and/or the post-war international structure (UN, UNSC). That exceptional! message comes through loud and clear despite his ‘triage’ formalism. And it is a message that is comforting to the elite who read the WSJ (before a holiday weekend), though it should give Joe Sixpack nightmares if fully understood.

There is a lot more there which would take much longer to unpack. But I’ll point to one more thing: Note how he forms an equivalence between all the troubles that the ‘West’ now face, and ignores US/Western actions that have contributed to these conflicts by conflating them. NC readers understand this via Merschemer’s (in today’s links) work on Ukraine and many links regarding ISIS (like this one).

This comforting message is needed because the Ukraine gambit has failed miserably – as many independent oberservers [sic] predicted– and a deeper conflict with Russia (possibly extending to others) is now in the cards. Like the true neocon that he is, Kissinger has doubled down on Nuland’s obnoxious and misguided “f*ck the EU” with an exceptional! “f*ck the World”.

God help us.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Henry Kissinger on the Assembly of a New World Order
The concept that has underpinned the modern geopolitical era is in crisis

Note: almost immediately after Kissinger's Op-Ed, the Obama Administration took several actions that shifted USA toward a more contentious relationship with Russia.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 24 2018 3:42 utc | 115

Grieved "Nothing is here to stay. Not even any good we may create. We must strive every moment to create good, without either hope or despair."

That about covers it. A little extra I would add is that sometimes we would have to fight for something good.
The distinction here I guess is the dividing line between physical fighting and reconciliation. This is something that has been brought sharply to my mind in studying the second Chechen war and the Russian move into Syria.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 3:47 utc | 116

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 23, 2018 4:44:13 PM | 94

Putin says all the right things. Problem is that the nomenklatura was not defeated, they just switched ideology.

In the case of Bill Browder, even Radio Liberty considered him a crook in 2002.

Are Americans involved in defrauding Russian companies to the point of near collapse and making millions of dollars in illicit profits in the process? If so, can such activities help promote the image of the United States among Russian elites?

Hermitage Capital Management Ltd. and its boss, William Browder, have challenged PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), the auditors for Gazprom (see "RFE/RL Crime and Corruption Watch," 3 May 2002). Browder, a U.S. citizen, has claimed that he, as a protector of minority shareholder rights, is waging a campaign to force Russian business to be more transparent and "reform Gazprom." He failed to mention that he was also desperately trying to get a seat on Gazprom's board of directors.

Court records in the United States suggest that Browder has not always been so altruistic a fighter for minority-shareholder rights. In fact, Browder and a group of other investors along with a former adviser to the Harvard Institute for International Development, are accused of having entered into a criminal conspiracy to defraud a Russian company, Avisma Titano-Magnesium Kombinat, in Berezniki, Russia, in the late 1990s.

That someone like him can get US Congress, Canada, the EU to pass an act sanctioning his competitors, is proof, I am afraid, of Western corruption.

The "former adviser to the Harvard Institute for International Development" is Jonathan Hay.

Jonathan Hay went on to work in Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2018 3:49 utc | 117

Not one comment on moves Trump is already making against Iran. It's like you ignore the elephant in the room because it shatters the Trump illusion. It's all about how Putin is a chess master and Trump can do no wrong. This is how we got the Iraq war. Stupid cult-like complacency, and deceive, distract, deflect. It's true what Trump said: he can shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Ave. and you'd still grovel and worship at his feet.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 24 2018 4:03 utc | 118

You really are a nutter somebody

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 4:04 utc | 119

@100 jr... i agree with you.. we seem to be slow learners...

@101 guerrero... thanks... i knew some of that, but i appreciate you sharing your knowledge on mexican culture...

@106 peter... that vendatta code is pretty shocking.. thanks for sharing that..

@113 grieved.. i share your sentiment.. thanks for stating that..

@117 circe... it is not that you are ignored, just that you always are obsessed about the same thing.. one trick pony.. i think folks think of you as the guy who has nothing good to say about trump.. okay - we get that!! what is there to say to you? your general characterization of others here is a pile of steaming bullshit, which is probably another reason why not a lot of folks feel the need to reply to you - myself included.. but i made an exception today, lol...

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2018 4:09 utc | 120

Peter AU @112, "Daniel's post in this thread @98 was very good."

Thank you, Peter. I hope this means we can return to civil discourse. I'll try.

"Reconciliation combined with destruction of irreconcilable jihadists. What/how does this translate to in the US west?"

Isn't that amazing? In South Africa, they created the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission," which gave people the opportunity to come clean, and usually avoid prosecution. But that was after the revolution was accomplished.

President Assad offering this during the bloody insurrection is without precedence as far as I can recall. I wrote "insurrection" because this is only for the Syrian "rebels," not the armed invaders. But even there, he's been giving them bus rides to the vicinity of the Turkish border (where most of them entered Syria), so they can leave. IF the Sultan of Turkey permits.

When you write "the US west" do you mean the US and the Western countries or the western portion of the US? Two different issues.

I'm in favor or reparations for both Indians and African-Americans. I'm open to a variety of methods, but I believe it's the right thing to do.

But I generally do believe that a Truth and Reconciliation program would be possible, and even necessary when/if we take control from those greedy elitist 0.1%ers.

Just like in Syria, there are some crimes that cannot simply be swept under the rug. But I think it important that we make clear to those PTSB that we will not execute, or punitively punish them if they come clean. I think if we remove those fears as much as possible, they will not be as fanatical in defending their rank.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 4:11 utc | 121

Daniel "Thank you, Peter. I hope this means we can return to civil discourse"
I would like to, as you have much to share although we may not agree on some points.
The only thing I ask is that you do not look down your nose at me when we do not agree on a point. We come at the same thing from different angles.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 4:16 utc | 122


I do think things constantly evolve. Problem is that last 60 years, indeed the last 500 years its been evolving in a fashion where evil being done far outweighs the good, and most people have been brainwashed to believe the opposite. They live in the Matrix . If you cant even see you are in prison you cant escape.

Perhaps an alien intervention will help, but if not I fear the forces of evil are much too strong to overcome now

As Putin said

" We can see how many of the Euro-Atlantic countries are actually rejecting their roots, including the Christian values that constitute the basis of Western civilisation. They are denying moral principles and all traditional identities: national, cultural, religious and even sexual. They are implementing policies that equate large families with same-sex partnerships, belief in God with the belief in Satan.

The excesses of political correctness have reached the point where people are seriously talking about registering political parties whose aim is to promote paedophilia. People in many European countries are embarrassed or afraid to talk about their religious affiliations. Holidays are abolished or even called something different; their essence is hidden away, as is their moral foundation. And people are aggressively trying to export this model all over the world. I am convinced that this opens a direct path to degradation and primitivism, resulting in a profound demographic and moral crisis."

In any event, optimism is not a bad thing, so I dont begrudge you that. I'm too old to be around if your optimism pays dividends, but I hope it does

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 4:24 utc | 123

You have studied hunter gatherer archaeology. Debsisdead has immersed himself in the life, but from an ideological viewpoint. I have lived with hunter gatherer society/culture and developed a respect for it, although not my own culture.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 24 2018 5:03 utc | 124

Here is the latest ZH article on the status in Syria and Golan Heights

Israel Rejects Russian Plan To Keep Iranian Forces 100km From Golan Border

Thanks to all commenters for the discussion about potential future of humanity. It is uplifting to read such good sharing

I agree with the Grieved thought
Nothing is here to stay. Not even any good we may create. We must strive every moment to create good, without either hope or despair.
If one can give up on that outcome thing it gives joy to the striving, IMO

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2018 5:44 utc | 125

Ditto, Peter. :-)

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 6:23 utc | 126

Peter AU@107

Evil is more sinister than greed. Politics of Ponerology sheds some light on it

I'm not convinced of this though, hence the word "perhaps"

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 6:27 utc | 127

Peter AU @ 107


Politics of Ponerology sheds light

Not 100% convinced, hence the perhaps

Could a secret religion reserved for elites be behind it? Aliens in human form? You are right in that imagination can lead to strange places. Of vourse we can assume the CIA cersion of events where men having IQ's 4-7 SD higher than the mean are victims of repeated coincidences, incompetents and accidents. Not sure whats crazier

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 6:36 utc | 128

Sorry for the double post. The timeout thing had me thinking my comment was lost so redid it


Thanks for link, thats huge. HSBC had bought Republican Bank of NY from Safer who cofounded Hermitage Capital, and died suspiciously days later after being linked to stolen IMF funds laundered through his bank and Bank of NY. His bank was behind the Money Plane that flew 40 billion into Russia in 100 dollar bills in the mid 90's before Yeltsins reelection (maybe coincidence)

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 6:46 utc | 129

Front woman for FEMEN, Inna Shevchenko commit suicide apparently, blame Putin in 3 2 1...

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 24 2018 8:19 utc | 130

sorry it was not Inna but reportedly an activist named Oksana Shachko.

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 24 2018 8:22 utc | 131

Posted by: bevin | Jul 23, 2018 6:46:00 PM | 103

most economies have been about subsistence- get enough food to eat and then enjoy it.
That is why the great complaint, from all the various founders of capitalist society has always been of the 'laziness' of the ordinary people....
The truth is that, thoughout history, most people would much rather not be working, provided that that didn't mean they had to starve to death. The basis of capitalism is that it takes away all chance of living a full life unless one works for wages, producing surplus value and giving up all hope of living a full life.

This 1837 quote from pro-slavery ideologue William Harper sums it up well. (H/T Derrick Jensen’s Endgame p. 107)

“The institution of Slavery is a principal cause of civilization. Perhaps nothing can be more evident than that it is the sole cause. If anything can be predicated as universally true of uncultivated man, it is that he will not labor beyond what is absolutely necessary to maintain his existence. Labor is pain to those who are unaccustomed to it, and the nature of man is averse to pain. Even with all the training, the helps and motives of civilization, we find that this aversion cannot be overcome in many individuals of the most cultivated societies. The coercion of Slavery alone is adequate to form man to habits of labor. Without it, there can be no accumulation of property, no providence for the future, no taste for comforts or elegancies, which are the characteristics and essentials of civilization. He who has obtained the command of another’s labor, first begins to accumulate and provide for the future, and the foundations of civilization are laid…Since the existence of man upon the earth, with no exception whatever, either of ancient or modern times, every society which has attained civilization has advanced to it through this process.”

Posted by: Russ | Jul 24 2018 8:52 utc | 132

Circe @ 119
Thank you Circe for this particular comment ! I support every word of it. And thank you for all your previous comments !i have enjoyed reading this thread becouse it's a step forward in our collective understanding ! The poor deluded trump supporters on this site , are more interested in saving face and preserving there own vanity and ego. It shocks me that they put that agenda before the good of the planet and future generations to come.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 9:44 utc | 133

James @ 121
Don't set your self up as a spokesmen for people on this sight you are not !!!
Never should you attempt to censor people's legitimate comments, particularly using such fowl abusev tones !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 9:56 utc | 134

Posted by: bevin | Jul 23, 2018 6:46:00 PM | 103

most economies have been about subsistence- get enough food to eat and then enjoy it.

This is not based on fact.

The blame game about the poor being lazy is by people who feel they have to be better than others. The really rich have no problem being lazy themselves.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2018 10:11 utc | 135

Thanks to all the civil intelligent people on this thread, brilliant! Thank you zanon, and Dan ect,ect
I watched the magnitsky act film yesterday. My gut feeling told me how important and brave it was ! Like the director in the film i'v been trying to work out it's true significants!
Browder was up to some shady deals in Russia at the behest of 'hsbc', it all got very very dirty! He tried to cover up and protect his reputation / cover .
My thinking is this ---- There must be 1000 Browder types around the world run by the banks and western governments subverting and curupting the rest of the world . Arms sales, laundering curupt money, land theft for the globle agri companies, doggie oil deals !!! The list is end less in short there hugely responsible as facilitaters for all the western evil in the world, on a level with the toxic arms trade.
They are the missing link between the 1% - banks- polatition's - media - army . In short the whole toxic nest of rats that run our immoral countrys. So yes I'd say a very significant film indeed!!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 11:43 utc | 136

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24, 2018 7:43:06 AM | 137

Poisoned by Plonium: The Litvinenko File is good, too, by the same author.

It tells you something about "the security services becoming the force of rich men".

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2018 12:02 utc | 137

Circe. It's an open thread.... feel free to throw down some links to the opening moves of Trump against Iran. Belittling the thread for not talking about what you wanna talk about without actually offering anything to talk about is as James said steaming BS.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 24 2018 12:06 utc | 138

Somebody @ 138
Thanks for that link I will give that my full attention this evening. You too are one of the people I follow here, that I give full credibility to, even if I don't acknowledge it .keep it up.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 14:38 utc | 139

Tannenhouser @ 139
That comment says a lot more about you ! Than it say's about Circe. Your free to have your view, as is Circe. So let's cut the juvenile remarks and debait like grown ups! End of.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 14:47 utc | 140

Reposted from
"The Browder affair is a heady upper-class Jewish cocktail of money, spies, politicians and international crime."


Deposition in case of U.S. vs. Prevezon Holdings


Posted by: Anya | Jul 24 2018 15:14 utc | 141

Mark2, oh the irony......

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 24 2018 15:19 utc | 142

The big picture that I take from the 'Magnitsky film'
It's about banks---- we all use banks as a safe place to put our money. And if we get a good idear they may back it with funding ! At least that was what I was taught to beleave ! But when you really focus on what they really do, we get an entirely different picture ! I'v heared them say there is no room for morals in banking ! They own more money than some whole county's they are largely above the law, politicians do as they say. I think we should lift the lid on these monsters and shine a light on what they 'are' actually doing. I suggest we start at the very top.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 15:40 utc | 143

A reliable commentator, Finian Cunningham, has come out with his take on the resettlement of White Helmet Jihadi Thugs in western countries. It appears in Strategic Culture and other websites. He points out that even Seehofer, the German interior minister, revealed his true colours by favouring the resettlement of White Helmet el qaeda thugs in Germany (my words not his). This reveals the posturing of his recent anti-immigrant initiatives profiling himself and his party to save its position in Bavaria. Any terrorist action in Germany will now be usable by the Alternativ fuer Deutschland in the Bayern elections this autumn, and should be used by that party to discredit the CSU even if no such events occur.
In my country of Canada, things are perhaps even worse long-term for the politically corrupt, I mean, correct, pro-yankee regime. Since the NDP has neutered itself by going with the parachuted in politically correct exotically weird appearing candidate advised by a former tory Harper advisor on foreign affairs issues, it can't credibly go forward as an alternative to Trudeau in the next election. We saw a reflection of this in the recent Ontario provincial elections where, possibly in large part because of the lack of serious alternative nationally posed by the Federal NDP, after the liberal collapse in Ontario, the tories led by a member of the bozo Ford family, formed the new government rather than the NDP. This could have profoundly negative repercussions if repeated in the next federal election. Canada needs to step out into a more independent position, particularly looking at the evolution of the yankee imperium, particularly the deep state which really runs the show there.
As for Britain, the tory regime there is totally morally bankrupt, and I see its collapse as likely, and this importation of more mercenary ragheads and their families, which will likely lead to another Manchester-like episode, will only confirm it. If, as a result of the failure to handle brexit and similar immigration problems, the right splits again, Labour will have a clear path it seems to me, but they need to get rid of their own anti-party group which is betraying their leader, Jeremy Corbyn, the first legitimate Social Democratic leader to emerge in any western country for decades.

Posted by: exiled off mainstreet | Jul 24 2018 15:58 utc | 144

You misunderstand my point. The rich are all about living off surpluses produced by others. In order to make people work harder and produce more than they need in order to sustain themselves and do more important things than working (for others) the rich, through the state, force them to work. They justify this compulsion by claiming that people are lazy if they refuse to produce surpluses for the rich to squander on luxuries, idleness and, among other things, building the state by engaging in war.
Nobody questions that the rich are lazy. The problem is that you have swallowed their ideology that preferring leisure, thought or other forms of recreation to the production of commodities, is wrong. It isn't: it is what people have done since the dawn of time. It is what our peasant ancestors with their long holidays and saint Mondays, their harvest homes and religious feast days and their long winters huddled around fires were doing before the Reformation/Renaissance and the foundation of the American Empire. It is what the 'tribes' in Brazil, Canada and the States were doing too-before they were rudely interrupted by capitalism, with small pox on its breath and a gun in its hand.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 24 2018 16:07 utc | 145

Jackrabbit @116--

The Duran is most certainly not a supporter of the Democrat Party; it's been very pro-Trump. IMO, anti-communist hysteria that drove the Anti-Communist Crusade never totally abated, and was modified to become the New Russophobia soon after 911. It began with fits and farts as it was overshadowed by propaganda about Iraq, Iran and Syria, and finally by the engineered market takedown of 2007-8. While US homeowners were being raped by Banksters, Wall Street and Congress, Putin gave his 2007 Munich Security Conference Speech, which generated the reinvigoration of the Russophobia campaign in preparation for the anticipated Russian veto of the UNSC R2P on Libya. But that didn't happen and the debacles of Benghazi and Libya dominated BigLie Media followed by the massive Arab Spring PsyOP and associated regime change attempts. But there was not to be a repeat of the UNSC abstention by Russia as it pushed-back against the Syrian false-flag chemical weapon event and managed to move public opinion to oppose a unilateral, illegal attack on Syria. Please note what Putin said about that to the US Neocon rep at Valdai and his frustrated reaction. The Ukraine Coup is often cited as being in revenge for the Syrian failure, but that's mistaken as it was long being planned, but the Russophobia campaign was already escalating. With NATO's defeat at Crimea, Russophobia exploded then died back some during the 2015-16 election campaign only to resurface in its midst thanks to HRC's lawbreaking. Domestically, Russophobia's being used to cover-up HRC's and DNC's gross criminality and illegal election manipulating while attacking Trump, and it's a success so far.

I linked to The Duran article because it provided a segue to Putin's speech. As the above shows, I disagree with the writer's overall thesis but do believe Putin's speech caused a negative reaction within the Outlaw US Empire as the reaction of its representative clearly shows. With Trump, the game has changed somewhat, but its general thrust remains unchanged as Unipolarism remains the ultimate goal. What's ironic is Putin's 2013 speech makes it clear that his reelection was affirmation of his policy to Make Russia Great Again, and all his efforts are dedicated to that goal. Meanwhile, Trump's MAGA is pure rhetoric as neoliberal and neocon policies continue to teardown and hollow-out the internal Outlaw US Empire further immiserating Trump's base of support.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 24 2018 16:09 utc | 146

@135 mark2... read my comments as my comments then! regarding circe and his condescending remarks to ALL OF MOA @119 - i see you are unwilling to address that... interesting approach which i take note of as has tannenhouser @139.. i am less inclined to read anything you have to say moving forward..

@145 exiled off mainstreet.. thanks for your post.. i share your concerns for canada at this point... we are a lot more messed up then many realize..

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2018 16:11 utc | 147


I did throw down some links @73 & 83 and even hi-lighted important text. Regardless of the links and there are numerous more out there if you bother to search them, don't pretend there's not enough proof merely with Pompeo's anti-Iran deception and propaganda campaign and Trump's own words and endless bullshet on Iran you should get the picture loud and clear. Let's not forget Trump praised Netanyahu's fake intelligence show on Iran. Yellowcake and aluminum tubes replay and everyone's asleep at the switch again.

james, your extremely hostile response reminds me of how I was attacked by Obama supporters on Huffpo circa 2008 - rabid followers of the messiah, whenever I criticized some of his policies especially foreign policy. You're right I rarely have good things to say about Trump, because, he's an immoral entitled 1%er hurting this planet and I won't stop saying so. The minimal things he did right: setting free from prison a black woman Kim K. was lobbying for and some and I emphasize some effort regarding prison reform (excluding sentencing reform) he did for self-serving political reasons. The Russia detente is good, but I'm very suspicious of his motives and his genuineness. None of his actions on the ground are good and benefit only Israel, KSA and Nato. And again it's part of a twisted hegemonic geo-political scheme to stick it to China.

Mark2, great response.

Daniel, reading your comments is like opening a window and letting in fresh air.

Finally, when Trump does something right; for instance, like removing the clearance of intelligence officials, it's not for the greater good; even though it temporarily turns out that way. His motives are either self-serving or corrupt. What good is it to replace one devil with another? Example Trump fires McMaster and replaces him with Bolton?! What was gained? Bolton is exactly where he wanted to be, next to rabid like-minded Iranophobe, Trump. He fires Tillerson and replaces him with POMPEO, another Iranophobe. I'm glad he pulled those clearances, but Jared Kushner, has a clearance! WTF is he good for? And there are plenty of stupid talking head hawks on the outside pushing this administration.

You just don't get that Trump is the most Zionist President ever, a corrupt 1%-er, a pathological, sometimes dangerously opaque, LIAR, and a swamp creature like all the rest of the establishment.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 24 2018 16:25 utc | 148

circe - your comments negated everyone! is that hostile??? you are on ignore here forward.. you were kind of there before, but now it is permanent..

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2018 16:31 utc | 149

@146 bevin

Totally agree. Somewhere I read an estimation based on the study of indigenous peoples that the early hunter-gatherer peoples "worked" about a 13-hour week.

William Irwin Thompson, in The Time Falling Bodies Take To Light, illustrates these early days as being matrilineal in their overall leadership culture, and of course immensely impressed by the sacred nature of life, which they had time to regard.

Women created all of the basic sciences of medicine and the classification of flora and fauna, says Thompson, and then created their ultimate triumph and nemesis, of agriculture. This enabled nomadism to end, and created wealth that could be stored, valued, guarded and stolen. This was the rise of the patriarchy, men willing to commit violence and to focus more on the material than the spiritual.

And so it has been since. And it can always change again.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2018 16:50 utc | 150

148;Circe is a woman.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 24 2018 16:51 utc | 151

@147 karlof1

Thanks for that summary. I'll use it as a work study when I finally get to read that transcript. As always, your efforts are appreciated, by many I would say.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2018 16:52 utc | 152

Anya @ 142
Wow thanks for that list of links, I promise I will set to and follow them all. I learn so much from Moa.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 17:19 utc | 153

@124 Pft

To clarify, I don't see the world as evolving, necessarily, because my understanding of how things work doesn't put the goodness of the mind as subservient to worldly influences. A saint can slip, and descend all the way to hell - to use those terms - and so can a world.

My sense of optimism, so-called, is really a personal choice of attitude, so as not to slip to those depths.

When your mind is sunny, new thoughts that come to you will be productive, and may help others. When your mind is dark, new thoughts will be destructive, which doesn't help anyone.

There is a lovely warning that I've read:
- Be careful of your words.
- Words create actions.
- Actions create habits.
- Habits create character.

With the materials you've been reviewing lately, and sharing with us - for which many thanks - it's no surprise anyone would feel gloomy. But all the bad people doing the bad things are the same as us, except saturated with wrong thinking.

And when you're a Buddhist, which I am, there is no end at death. All those bad people will lose all their privilege and be faced with the view made by the mind they've made, and then they'll take birth according to what's in their mind. This is how the wheel goes round, with the complete loss of personal identity at death, and only the vaguest kind of "self" in the sense of being one who has experiences, and all of this driven by karma - the only thing we "own" in the death process.

Which means, to put the sublime into satirical terms, that we may all be reborn - perhaps as humans, perhaps not - in a very hot world and wondering why nobody saw climate change coming and did something about it in time :)

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2018 17:23 utc | 154

Grieved @155
Thank you for your wisdom ! My thinking is ---- it's a choice between love and hate ! The only thing I hate is hate it's self. But I will never let that curupt me, for then the haters have won.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 17:40 utc | 155


I'm surprised Psychohistorian and other fellow techies haven't yet pointed out the modern (last 20 years or so) gift economy: Open Source Software (OSS). Much of this is what runs the Internet.

This vast, free library of operating systems and programs is contributed by individuals on their own time, and by employees paid to do so, and actually constitutes the code framework of the Internet itself.

Started mostly by Richard Stallman (RMS) who successfully created a version of copyright ("copyleft") which legally and enforceably allows one to release software that must be free, in that it must contain or have a means to locate the source code (the underlying algorithms that generate the program), so the next user can copy, modify and extend the software for their own use. Even sell it!

This was a response to AT&T's ownership of the UNIX operating system -- and ultimately resulted in Linus Torvalds creating his own version, called Linux. Linux runs most of the Internet servers in the world, along with Apache, a free web server.

This is still a fact today, following the 60s dictum "information wants to be free." There are free encryption algorithms, free web browsers, free email clients and so on. Also free viruses, keyloggers and botnets ... but the fundamental objective of RMS's Free Software Foundation has been accomplished ... the basic algorithms and functions that computing relies on are not wholly captured by corporations and governments, and we (those with the necessary skills) are legally free to use those assets to build free and open systems. This is a big deal.

Along the same line is the idea that open software is reviewed by an interested, expert audience that can expose flaws, backdoors or other vulnerabilities. This is another basic tenet of the Internet, that when exploits are discovered, the results are soon exposed and the software is patched to work around those exposures.

Internet software and standards are by and large written and maintained by a group of volunteers, gifting their knowledge and collaboration for the greater good.

Posted by: jonku | Jul 24 2018 17:51 utc | 156

Circe...yes you did sorry it was on another page and I am following 4 threads here. Might it not be possible that the bluster on Iran is like it was with NK, storm before the calm possibly? I am not high on Trump juice or anything. I 100% agree with you about what a POS trump is. While not very probable this is possible right? I mean all DJT has done is remove Obama things and insert Trump things no?

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 24 2018 17:52 utc | 157

So regarding the magnitsky film and it's relevance to the global immoral banking system ! Let's start at the top then ---- Jacob and Eveyln Rothchild ! The former in the UK the later USA. The Rothchild family were instrumental in forming Israil. They make there money through funding war, going back hundreds of years. Some times funding both sides of a war !
I am told there are only about 3 nations banks that they don't run ! Iran north Koria and Venezuela! ( how am I doing ) so if Israil is Ther pet project and they call the shots in UK and USA then it can be seen they are attempting to disable financially or through warfare every county including uk and America. And the likes of browder are the unseen facilitaters.
At this stage I need a strong coffee.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 18:01 utc | 158

In my country we were proud of our industry! Then we got Margert thatcher ,she set about distroying the unions and then closing our factory's replacing both with cheap labour in third world country's. The boss's were happy more profit! Middle class voters/share holders were happy more profit ! But but short term gain ! Thatcher said we don't need heavy industry uk makes its money in banking! What she did'nt say, is that it was rotten curupt amoral banking creating mass murder and starvation!
I would guess identical story in the USA so basically if you voted thatcher or with hind sight Blair you/we were paid up rebels just like paid up Syrian Rebels.In the USA if you voted trump you unknowingly like us in uk voted for your own country's demise and the rothchilds gain.
So yes I think the Browder film is important !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 18:56 utc | 159

Posted by: jonku | Jul 24, 2018 1:51:07 PM | 157

Internet software and standards are by and large written and maintained
by a group of volunteers, gifting their knowledge and collaboration for the greater good.

Muchas gracias.

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 24 2018 19:17 utc | 160

Mark2@159. Iran, Syria NK Micronesia and (until recently)Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, not sure about Venezuela. Theory has it that's why they are in the crosshairs.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 24 2018 20:07 utc | 161

Thanks Tannenhouser @ 162
Straight talking on here, we may differ sometimes and why wouldn't we ?but I like your style ! Respect to you.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 24 2018 20:50 utc | 162


Perhaps not all for the greater good

"The career concern incentive refers to future job offers, shares in commercial open source- based companies,9 or future access to the venture capital market.

Also a number of commercial companies engage in oss for various reasons and the programmers are salaried

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 21:25 utc | 163

Thanks, somebody @136. I just didn't have it in me to get into the unending "True Human Nature" claims.

Here's what over a century of anthropological and sociological studies around the world have shown: essentially all "normal" human beings in every culture want to feel that they are productive and appreciated member of their society.

Not counting those who are unhealthy (physically or mentally/emotionally), there are always a tiny percentage who want to take advantage of the production of others and do as little as possible.

What some people always confuse or misinterpret is that hunter/gatherer societies only need to spend a few hours per day "working." But they spend a great deal of time doing other productive things that their cultures value. Chances are that was even more true in the distant past, since the remaining H/G societies are mostly living in marginal environments compared to the verdant ecosystems most people lived in for most of human history.

Lastly, productivity has skyrocketed in "developed" countries. If this translated into people working fewer hours on fewer days for fewer years of their lives, that would be a good thing. Then people could spend more time being creative, developing relationships with their families and loved ones, etc.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 21:37 utc | 164


I hope you're right, but the jury's still out on NK. Neither party is satisfied with the other's input. NK has made certain concessions: returning prisoners, halting missile testing and nuclear testing, and blowing up a nuclear testing site. So far all Trump gave them is a photo-op meeting and halting military drills with SK and he's putting the pressure on them to give much more. I don't trust he'll get anywhere because he's asking for too much and giving too little. Kim's not stupid; he sees what Trump is doing with Iran; he's not giving up his only leverage. So who knows where those talks will end up.

As far as Iran; it's different because he appointed too many Iran hawks to his Administration. That's a bad sign. Also, he's way in with the Zionist agenda and that lunatic Netanyahoo. So it's different from NK. Israel doesn't care so much about NK; but Iran is on the Zionist hit list. Trump's rhetoric lately is very threatening and Pompeo's deception propaganda tour and regime change psy-ops aimed at sowing Iranian unrest aren't a good sign. It's just starting to look too much like Iraq and Syria redux, therefore, it's not time to sit back and let it happen without serious push back on all fronts including here. You never know which way Trump will turn to deflect and get a poll number rise. Right now they're using a combination of regime change propaganda, and wag the dog threats of aggression. Today Trump toned down the rhetoric, but the sanctions to choke off Iran's main export IMO amount to an act of war, especially when Iran was abiding by the nuclear deal. I just think that pushing back right now is critical to abort another Iraq and Syria. Trump is very ratings savvy. If his poll numbers even slightly fall because of this hostile policy; he'll back off. It's important to prevent another Iraq, actually a disaster worse than Iraq and push back on the propaganda and lies he and Pompeo are spouting to sow civil war in Iran or any other kind of war. The Syrian and Ukrainian wars started the same way, with all kinds of meddling and inciting revolution and Iraq started with fabricated casus belli. All this is already in the works. So now is the time to squash their efforts to bring on war and even civil war.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 24 2018 21:39 utc | 165


I may start reviewing more sunny material

However, on your concerns about climate change and Buddhism, many of the critters we are likely to be reborn as like the warmth. If you look into the worlds climate history over the last 600K years, indeed 2million years, the planet has been in an ice age with only brief warm periods (interglacial periods) for 10-20K yrsbreaking up far longer glacial periods (100+K yrs)

Climate is actually one of the areas I am most sunny about. My concern is the impact of the next glacial period and wonder if man is somehow able to delay the event with the contributions one faction of the elite says is so harmful. If not I hope to come back as a critter with a fur coat

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 21:41 utc | 166

karlof1 @147

I glad that you agree that the conflict doesn't originate in a "clash of cultures".

As you may recall Bush famously used "clash of cultures" language against Muslim's saying "They hate us for our freedoms." This was merely a neat cover-all for public consumption.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 24 2018 22:01 utc | 167

I cant say this is sunny material

"Though the announcement is couched in terms that make it seem humanitarian, as potentially a huge advance in science, an agency tied to the British government is encouraging efforts in gene-editing of the DNA of human embryos. It belongs in the category of eugenics."

LOL-with robots with AI on the way why bother? That reminds me of the GM seed product that Monsanto patented that produces crops with seeds that are sterile by introducing a terminator gene. Imagine doing the same with humans . Sorry Grieved

Posted by: Pft | Jul 24 2018 22:01 utc | 168

@152 dahoit.. makes sense.. thanks.....

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2018 22:34 utc | 169

Anya @142. Thanks for that great Unz article on Browder from 2016. Adding in the Jewish supra-national banksters, Intelligence Agencies and both of their connections to Organized Crime/Mafia really brings this more into focus.

It mentions as an aside one of my recurring points:

"His hacks re-wrote his Wikipedia entry, expunging even discussions of the topic: despite hundreds of edits, nothing survived but the official version."

Is every entry at Wikipedia corrupted?

Of course not. But how is one to know which information to trust given the vast resources invested in "perception management?"

I've suggested before that academics I've known suggest using Wiki solely for their bibliographies. Don't even bother to read the entry; just scroll down and check the source materials, which may be more reliable, but are at least usually more transparent in their biases.

At Wiki, one never knows which country, intelligence agency, corporation, special interest group or obsessed individual is determining what "truth" is at any given entry on any given day.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 22:54 utc | 170

exiled off mainstreet @145

"Any terrorist action in Germany will now be usable by the Alternativ fuer Deutschland in the Bayern elections this autumn..."

Yep, as has been the case in Europe ever since OSS/CIA and "friends" established the "stay behind armies" of Operation Gladio, etc. starting in the last days of WW II These were largely far-right (often actual Nazis) para-militaries that committed horrible acts of terrorism which were blamed on "the Communists" or other leftists. They always result in people turning against lefty parties.

Relatedly, recently some Israeli propagandists got a lot of publicity for their book, "Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations." What didn't get much mention was their documentation of a years-long Mossad operation of terrorist bombings that were blamed on Palestinians.

This article explores that very well.
The remarkable disappearing act of Israel’s car-bombing campaign in Lebanon or: What we (do not) talk about when we talk about ‘terrorism’

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 23:14 utc | 171

Posted by: Circe | Jul 24, 2018 12:25:08 PM | 149

"Trump is the most Zionist President ever, a corrupt 1%-er, a pathological, sometimes dangerously opaque, LIAR, and a swamp creature like all the rest of the establishment."

That sums up my assessment of both Trump's past several decades and the actual actions of this Administration quite well.

James and Circe, please call a truce. You both offer great additions to MoA. Circe got frustrated, just as karloff1 has when they sensed insufficient attention paid to their contributions. I get the same feeling sometimes.

Moon and Kim held hands across the DMZ. Good role models?

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 23:26 utc | 172

@171 Daniel

Broken link (typo). Working link here:
The remarkable disappearing act of Israel’s car-bombing campaign in Lebanon or: What we (do not) talk about when we talk about ‘terrorism’

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2018 23:42 utc | 173

Thanks Grieved. That must have been (one of my many) formatting errors.

Phillip Weiss is often very enlightening, but that article was like a searchlight beaming straight into my eyes.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 24 2018 23:52 utc | 174

I don't recall who posted a link to one episode of The Real News Network's interview with Russian Prof. Alexandr Buzgalin, but I cannot recommend it strongly enough. I haven't finished the whole series yet, and started in the middle, so which issue was discussed where is murkier than usual in my brain.

But I think this is the 1/2 hour where Buzgalin explains that the big money behind Putin is largely in control there, just like here. He describes the competition between different monied interests, but observes that none of them want to upset the apple cart from which they''re all pilfering the fruits of our labor.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 0:03 utc | 175

"Why is Putin so Popular When People Are so Poor?"

Two factors the good professor Buzgalin conveniently forgets. People that are seeing a steady increase in prosperity tend to have a better opinion of their leadership, and in Russia they also see the US attacks against Russia that caused a stagnation of that increase in prosperity for a few years.

A video I watched some time ago on the rise and fall of the oligarchs. The narration carries the western propaganda of the day, but it is worth watching for the actual interviews of the oligarchs, also the liberals from the era when Putin was taking down the oligarchs.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 0:58 utc | 176

Circe166. I dunno Circe I dunno. Ten years ago I woulda been all hot like you are. It's different for Iran this time as well don't forget. By most accounts there are quite a few initiatives relating to trade and common interests at play.

I'm not Russian or Chinese.......I wouldn't put in the effort just to allow the spoiled brat of the block get it's way for nonsense reasons. Personally I don't understand why Russia an China just don't issue a statement on Iran. Something like China did with NK. This and a few other non actions by Russia or China leave me at a loss and I can only surmise why. I keep coming back to Samson. That or they are all playing for the same team and all opposition is controlled.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 25 2018 1:09 utc | 177

Peter @176, "Two factors the good professor Buzgalin conveniently forgets. People that are seeing a steady increase in prosperity tend to have a better opinion of their leadership, and in Russia they also see the US attacks against Russia that caused a stagnation of that increase in prosperity for a few years."

Perhaps you haven't finished the series, because the good professor specifies both of those. He also explains what led to the relative increase in prosperity for regular Russians (mostly oil prices), and why the 0.01% let the people get a bit more prosperous during this period.

I think I watched that "Rise of Putin" video some years ago, but I'll check it out (again?). Buzgalin specifies that Putin's Administration did shut down some of the (Jewish) oligarchs, while allowing others to continue. He also gives some explanation for how different oligarchs ended up on which list.

He's an ideologue in his one right, so even though his explanations are logical and sound, I picked up some biases here and there that snuck through.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 1:20 utc | 178

@177 "Personally I don't understand why Russia an China just don't issue a statement on Iran."

Maybe they just don't react to every single tweet that comes out of Washington. They have centuries of experience to draw on. Why play Trump's game?

Posted by: dh | Jul 25 2018 1:34 utc | 179

That piece about allowing some oligarchs to continue is correct, I believe, but under the understanding that they pay their taxes, obey Russian Federation laws, and pay their workers.
Perhaps something to think on is how a country like Russia, predominantly of a somewhat western culture but also a number of cultural ethnic groups, could be pulled back from where it was when Putin took power. It is something I have thought on a number of times.
Will check your link again as I did not realize there was a series.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 1:35 utc | 180

dh@179 Who comments 'Maybe they just don't react to every single tweet that comes out of Washington. They have centuries of experience to draw on. Why play Trump's game?'

That's just it dh.... make the statement. The game ends. I am still left to surmise as to why.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 25 2018 1:54 utc | 181

@181 I think it's called something like 'giving them enough rope'.

Posted by: dh | Jul 25 2018 1:57 utc | 182

@181 What kind of statement would you suggest Russia/China issue? Something like 'Stop acting like you own the planet or we will obliterate you'?

Posted by: dh | Jul 25 2018 2:09 utc | 183

@dh.....they have had enough rope for years now, IMO. As to the message.... like I said earlier along the lines of the statement China made about NK. A general statement against hostilities on the Korean peninsula. China stated they would aid NK if attacked and not help if it initiates hostilities. I do like your suggestion tho, not entirely befitting centuries of experience I think we both agree.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 25 2018 2:30 utc | 184

@184 A general statement would be fine. Something forceful but still diplomatic. Glad you like my suggestion. It was supposed to be Trump talk of course.

Posted by: dh | Jul 25 2018 2:33 utc | 185

Trump's little charade some time ago with wahhabi saudi against wahhabi Qatar. What was that all about..
Both Saudi and Qatar support their cult offshoots around the world.
Qatar is now somewhat aligned with Iran and Turkey.
Qatar has a large US base. KSA does not.
The spat seems a Trump Kushner scheme. Get a war started between Iran and KSA with the US base out of the firing line..

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 2:43 utc | 186

Cohen: We'll have to pay
Trump: So we'll have to pay with cash.
Cohen: NO-NO-NO
Trump: Check?

Trump is a pathological liar. Every second syllable is a lie. Who can trust a word he says? Those tax returns must be a treasure trove.

I wonder why Melania stays? She could really do damage if she wanted to. She probably knows more secrets than anyone. If she divorces him and is no longer his wife, can she spill the beans?

Trump is a presidential reality show...more like a soap opera. He's gonna be seriously needing a wag-the-dog distraction. Hope it doesn't involve military.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 25 2018 3:09 utc | 187

@177, 183

Very good question. China came out for NK and North Korea is a dependent state (maybe because there would be a flood of refugees). China has a lot to lose if Iran is attacked, because it needs an uncompromised oil and gas source and Iran and for now Venezuela are it. Putin, I'm not sure can be trusted to stick his neck out where Iran is concerned.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 25 2018 3:24 utc | 188

De nada, Guerrero.

Another excellent example of the gift economy is this site,

None of us gain income from our contributions (I hope*) and we still do our darnedest to share our best insights and experience to the topics at hand.

To Pft, of course there are incentives to those who contribute to open source projects, but from what I have seen around me in open source contributors, is that much like this forum the goal is to be respected, to gain credibility, the social drive towards recognition within our community.

From what little I know about Potlatch here on the Salish Sea in BC's west coast, a band's chief would save up for years to give away all his band had to other bands, other people, simply so the chief and band could outdo his ancestors or peers in generosity. A different kind of gifting since it would often leave the host band destitute, even without food to survive the winter. Yet the balancing of wealth and sharing of the same has a beautiful resonance of leveling, not unlike a debt jubilee.

Hope someone else has more to add, as I seem to remember that these bands were also warlike, at least the northern people were. Wonder if they gave away slaves during Potlatch?

*hasbara excepted but not _accepted_

Posted by: jonku | Jul 25 2018 4:14 utc | 189

Why is Putin popular?

He took over Russia when the economy was at rock bottom after almost a decade of looting and corruption and the 98 collapse. Things could only improve. Also the spartment bombings in 1999 shortly after he took over was Russia's 9/11. Putin then used the military to crack down on Chechynas terrorists which was widely supported. His war on terrorism was not a Global one but like Bush and his GWOT increased his popularity. Some suspect it was a false flag. I dont know enough to have an opinion about that.

According to this link his popularity is dropping

Problem is Russias neoliberal policies. They just raised the retirement age.

In addition, western influence in the media does him no favors. He does not seem to have the control of the media some think he does, at leadt not according to this

Posted by: Pft | Jul 25 2018 4:59 utc | 190

Posted by: Peter AU 1 @186
"Trump's little charade some time ago with wahhabi saudi against wahhabi Qatar. What was that all about.."

The greatest known natural gas fields lie in the Persian Gulf, between Qatar and Iran. That seems a likely cause for the toned-down, but still operative hostility (assuming it's real).

That enormous wealth in methane also the source of the two competing pipeline plans: One through KSA and the other through Iran.

But as you note, there are other considerations, too. It's interesting that Turkey sent troops to Qatar when the saber-rattling got louder. Presumably not the same saber/sword that our President clumsily brandished doing that war dance with the truly barbaric Saudi Royalty.

Perhaps more significantly, relations between Qatar and Iran have warmed considerably as a result.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 5:38 utc | 191

Pft 190
Several years ago I saw a video on Chechnya. I have been searching for it for a few days but it seems to have been disappeared. It was one of these activist types that supported Chechnya in the first Chechen war. He returned to Chechnya to find that foreign mujahideen and Saudi clerics - wahhabi had moved in.
Much Browder type propaganda that even some here follow on Putin being behind the early islamic terrorist events in Russia.
In Chechnya, Putin, Kadyrov senior were fighting exactly the same terrorist that Russia is now fighting in Syria. The US backed wahhabi saudi cults. A section of chechens took this up. Those that were not wiped out in Chechnya moved to Ukraine and Syria.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 5:51 utc | 192

Posted by: jonku @189

"...much like this forum the goal is to be respected, to gain credibility, the social drive towards recognition within our community."

Another insightful observation! More of that seemingly universal human desire to feel they are "productive and appreciated" members of their society... or in this case, community.

The Potlatch has been an example used in cultural anthropology 101 classes for decades. The general conclusion is that it's a structured form of reciprocity, which builds/strengthens/perpetuates bonds. Also, the status of the giver is largely determined by the value of the gifts, both in simply value terms, but also to judge generosity by comparing the gift relative to the expected total wealth of the giver.

There's a great story about reciprocity.

There was an old anthropologist, who always attended the funerals of his colleagues.. which got to be pretty frequently as the years went on. He got so he needed a cane, and shuffled very slowly, but still he'd stop his work wherever he was, and travel however far was necessary to attend the funeral.

Finally, a younger anthropologist said to him, "It's gotten so hard for you to come to these funerals. Why don't you stop?"

And the old anthropologists answers, "If I don't go to their funerals, how do I know if they'll come to mine?!?"

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 6:01 utc | 193

Putin PM of Russia

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 6:24 utc | 194

Probably the most famous Chechens in the US are "The Boston Marathon Bombers."

Ya'll may remember Uncle Ruslan Tsarni, who was all over the TV coverage after his nephews, Tamerlan and Dzhokar Tsarnaev were named as the perpetrators of the “Boston Marathon Bombing.” He was the one who ridiculed them as “losers,” and first set much of what would become their official backstory.

Well, Uncle Ruslan Tsarni had been married to Graham Fuller’s daughter, and even lived in Graham's home.

Who is Graham Fuller, you ask?

From his official biography, we learn Graham was "the National Intelligence Officer for Near East and South Asia at CIA, and in 1986 Vice-Chairman of the National Intelligence Council at CIA, with overall responsibility for national level strategic forecasting."

Later, he "joined the CIA-founded and funded RAND Corporation where he was a senior political scientist for 12 years. His research focused primarily on the Middle East, Central Asia, South and Southeast Asia, and the politics of ethnicity and religion.”

You know, things like Chechen Muslims and their war against Russia.

And Fuller was the author of this declassified 1983 CIA, and probably the 1986 one also, both of which lay out the plan to "regime change" Syria, including through the use of Islamic Extremists shipped in from all over the place.... including Chechnya.

Since it goes into much more detail, including shipping in Islamic Extremists so it suggests a Gladio B type operational plan as early as 1983.

In fact, Ruslan ran an operation out of the Fuller home address that worked with CIA and may have funded Chechen Terrorist Groups who have been fighting against Russia since the 1990s.

"Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do my jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore"

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 6:31 utc | 195

Oh, and both of those CIA documents were written in the immediate wake of their failed coup in Syria, using Muslim Brotherhood terrorists. "Humanitarian intervention" apologists refer to daddy Assad's brutal massacre of "his own people" in the early 1980s. Well, that was putting down the armed insurgency of CIA's Brotherhood.

And somewhere I have the CIA after-action report on that, and even they state that the SAR's crackdown was targeted against these terrorists, and the total body count was several thousand, not the tens of thousands claimed in the early years of the ongoing war against Syria.

Also, I saw Graham Fuller as an "expert guest" on MSDNC a week or two ago.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 25 2018 6:42 utc | 196

"I'm just trying to do my jig-saw puzzle"

The puzzle perhaps is how different cultures live and interact together (question mark no longer works on my keyboard).

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 6:49 utc | 197

Thanks, somebody @136. I just didn't have it in me to get into the unending "True Human Nature" claims.

Here's what over a century of anthropological and sociological studies around the world have shown: essentially all "normal" human beings in every culture want to feel that they are productive and appreciated member of their society.

Not counting those who are unhealthy (physically or mentally/emotionally), there are always a tiny percentage who want to take advantage of the production of others and do as little as possible.

What some people always confuse or misinterpret is that hunter/gatherer societies only need to spend a few hours per day "working." But they spend a great deal of time doing other productive things that their cultures value.

Lastly, productivity has skyrocketed in "developed" countries. If this translated into people working fewer hours on fewer days for fewer years of their lives, that would be a good thing. Then people could spend more time being creative, developing relationships with their families and loved ones, etc.

Not sure who you're arguing with. People in H/G societies "worked" to the extent necessary to get the things they could use and destroyed no time working to produce commodities. Any mentally and spiritually healthy society does the same, and this is then the measure of what's productive and what's appreciated, in one's own mind and in the mind of the society.

Meanwhile we know for a fact that productionism never is used to let people work fewer hours and enjoy greater leisure; this is simply the most thoroughly refuted trickle-down lie of all. The surplus always has been stolen and used for the aggrandizement of the elites, since the beginning of civilization.

Individual grinderism is nothing but collaboration with this congenital kleptocracy. The only answer is movements and communities that reject the accumulation ideology, the aptly-named "Puritan work ethic". (Which the elites secretly despise; I recall Michael Hudson quoting a bankster who marveled with contempt, "Who would have thought the poor were so honest!" He was referring to the people's fidelity to the moralization of "debt", a pathology not shared by the rich.)

Accumulation and waste also are invariably the symptoms of an ecological bottleneck.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 25 2018 7:09 utc | 198

That was a reply to Daniel 165.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 25 2018 7:10 utc | 199

The Browder video linked by Patrick Armstrong at SST
Running through some other videos made by the same clown that give the rundown on Browder. I see that video was first published "First published at 14:38 UTC on July 19th, 2018." Before that the c..t was publishing pro jihadi propaganda for Qatar on al Jezeera. He has a number of pro US Jihadist videos labeled al jazeera.
Perhaps it is good that this c..t has run a piece on Browder, but how many has he killed in running his wahhabi US propaganda - supporting terrorists.
Watching his reporting for wahhabi Qatar, he has a lot to make up for.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 25 2018 7:58 utc | 200

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