Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 08, 2018

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-34

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

By Friday the new 'Novichok' fairytale had already vanished from the front pages. The story the British government tells is no longer believed. Even the Guardian allowed a comment that doubts the claims:

If the novichok was planted by Russia, where’s the evidence?

The most obvious motive for these attacks would surely be from someone out to embarrass the Russian president, Vladimir Putin – someone from his enemies, rather than from his friends or employees.

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on July 8, 2018 at 18:27 UTC | Permalink

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Hello, everyone.

In the July 07, 2018 edition of Moon of Alabama, I asked everyone for links and alt-media websites to go to. The way I did it seemed to be disruptive, given the reactions that I got. I wanted to apologize for that. I simply wanted to learn more about alt-media websites, not to troll, but I could have done it in a better way.

Anyway, let's share some alt-media websites that we know of.

Got a host of leftwing websites and rightwing websites and alt-media websites that I don't think are either leftwing or rightwing, so if you want anymore, just ask me.

Anyway, please, if you've got any alt-media websites you'd like to share, I think that the Open Thread is the best place to do it. I'm always on the look-out for any alt-media websites, so if you've got any, please tell me. The reason why I ask is because it's going to get harder and harder to find these websites, I think. So with that in mind, I'd like to learn more about what's out there in terms of the alt-media.

You got any alt-media websites to share, please do.

And thanks to anyone that have already shared what they knew in yesterday's thread.

Glad to be here by the way. I've known about Moon of Alabama for some time and I've decided to drop into the comments. I didn't really keep track of all the links that you guys posted, but I will now. Thank you.

Posted by: SomeGuy | Jul 8 2018 18:43 utc | 1

Seymour Hersh on who had motive to go after the Skripals.

Posted by: UserFriendly | Jul 8 2018 19:40 utc | 2

@ Someguy has an essential daily links section and one of the few comments sections on the web worth reading. Read it for a couple days to get the vibe before you jump in though, they don't suffer fools.

Posted by: UserFriendly | Jul 8 2018 19:47 utc | 3

UserFriendly @ 3

Yikes, hope you're not implying that I'm a fool or anything.

Anyway, thanks. I'll try to be careful. I should have made sure that I didn't inconvenience anyone when I first commented here. With that in mind, I'll be cautious and be as respectful as possible. Again, thanks.

Posted by: SomeGuy | Jul 8 2018 19:53 utc | 4

Not implying your a fool, but you admitted yourself you jumped in here and made waves you didn't mean to.

Posted by: UserFriendly | Jul 8 2018 20:15 utc | 5

UserFriendly @ 5

Yeah, I guess I did made waves I didn't mean to. Anyway, like I said, I'll be more careful. Thank you.

Posted by: SomeGuy | Jul 8 2018 20:24 utc | 6

RT News reports that Dawn Sturgess has died in hospital.

That's sad, whatever the actual cause of death. But this has already resulted in a fresh round of sensational/hysterical "breaking news"-- which is why I'm fond of saying that the idiomatic expression "breaking news" is a fraternal twin of the other idiom, "breaking wind".

The "novichok", or "nerve agent", creep is really starting to piss me off. By "creep", I'm referring to the way in which the original Big Lie alleging that the Skripals were felled by a "military-grade nerve agent", quickly "pinpointed" to be "Novichok", has become embedded in even skeptical analysis and discussion.

Yes, yes, the UK's political and scientific/technical authorities-- which includes third-party "authorities" either coerced by or colluding with the UK false-flag operation-- have repeatedly insinuated that "Novichok" is afoot.

I hope I'm wrong, but I predict that Sturgess's death will somehow reinforce the implanted presumption that a "nerve agent", the stuff of spies, spooks, and secret agents, must indeed be involved.

I also predict a boom in speculation about the many unsavory habits of "drug addicts" and the "homeless" that might've put the deceased and the stricken survivor into contact with this fatal "nerve agent".

Perhaps there is another "nerve agent" at work, one that robs rational people of the inhibition against inventing, and arguing, "facts" not in evidence.

Posted by: Ort | Jul 8 2018 21:27 utc | 7

Ort @7

LMFAO. The Novichok that DIDN'T kill the Scripals is now supposed to have killed someone months later.

I'm not convinced that Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley are real people.

I AM convinced that the British authorities were embarrassed by the non-lethal effect of supposed Novichok on the Skripals.

The deaths of Sturgess and Rowley, seem designed to restore credibility to the British narrative. But it has the opposite effect for any one paying attention.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 8 2018 21:44 utc | 8

Somebody had enough of a Novickok compound to salt one of the Skripal samples. Didn't OPCW lab turn up one of these compounds in its virgin form?
These latest two being druggos would be easy to dose. Now that OPCW have become an assign blame propaganda unit, they may well find the breakdown residues of a Novichok compound.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 8 2018 22:21 utc | 9

BBC today: "Almost all the Syrians who fled to the border with Jordan from an army offensive have now returned to their homes, a top UN official says.
Anders Pedersen, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator in Jordan, said that "around 150 to 200 people (are) right now at the border".
The offensive in Syria's south-west had earlier forced more than 320,000 people to flee in recent weeks, the UN says.
Many are now returning after a recent deal between the army and rebels."

Kind of accurate. "UN" seems to mean Mr. Pedersen, and his counting methodology is not disclosed. Somewhat legitimate method would be to randomly choose, say, 1 km length of the border affected by fighting and count there, and if there are 40 such kilometers and you estimated 8 thousands, you get "unbiased estimator" of 320 thousands. Of course, a bias can creep in, say that you select a spot that can be reached from Jordan without huge hassle, e.g. having at least a dirt road leading to it, but it is possible that it was also more accessible from Syria. So it is easy to "honestly" overestimate by a factor of 40.

What is strange is that the article is illustrated with a map that is at least 2 weeks old, with very small changes of control compared to the period before the Operation Basalt.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 8 2018 22:44 utc | 10
Senator Joni Ernst: doubts Russia would "ever be a true friend" to the U.S.
The Republicans are godawful morons - the Democrats need to win in November, bigtime

Posted by: aaaa | Jul 8 2018 22:46 utc | 11

I am cynical enough to believe that now that Dawn Sturgess has died from "Novichok" poisoning (more likely she died from Fentanyl or alcohol mixed with something else), that the Wiltshire county area will experience more "Novichok" poisoning incidents whose main peculiarity is that they target similar marginal individuals such as people addicted to Fentanyl, spice, Xylazine or any other exotic "zombie" drug, people who are homeless for various reasons, prostitutes, refugees, runaways and victims of domestic violence.

The shelter where Sturgess was staying is likely to be closed down and destroyed. Eventually maybe even Salisbury District Hospital, soon to be "overwhelmed" with "Novichok" poisoning victims, will be closed down and its staff sent to all four corners of Britain. No need for privatising that hospital then and the petty cash box that masquerades as the budget for the NHS will be relieved of the pressure of one more hospital and its staff payroll.

In the meantime the British press will be wondering what prejudice President Putin has against poor people in the UK that he wants to get rid of them.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 8 2018 22:56 utc | 12

Actually, there is no contradiction between a non-lethal effect in March and lethal effect in July, because we are talking about very small doses that can be lethal or sublethal. The victim could spot something "cute", pick it up and handle it for a minute, while a door handle is handled for less than a second. Secondly, some of us have an image of England with well maintained public spaces, but Tory government forced harsh budget cuts on municipalities, so perhaps in less prioritized parks trash is collected once or twice a year.

Still, the scenario of the poisoner throwing out the contaminated trash in such a way that it can be accidentally found later is a stretch. The kit could consist of gloves, something similar to a sanitizing napkin or a baby wipe, with another wipe to clean the gloves. If you do not throw out the packaging and the napkins/wipes right away, you would have to walk around with them, so they would have to be put in a safe pouch. Then you eschew a public trash can but throw it in some bushes, to be found months later "what a cute pouch! I wonder what is inside!". Apparently, nothing attractive, so the cute pouch was not brought home. Then dirty handed but affectionate Victim A contaminates Victim B.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 8 2018 23:03 utc | 13

Peter AU 1 @ 9: Yes you are right, the Spiez lab in Switzerland determined that the 2-week-old blood samples taken from the Skripals (with or without their consent or the consent of the Russian embassy in London still to be determined) contained the by-products of old Novichok, pure Novichok and BZ. This is according to the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

This would suggest that the blood samples must have been tampered with at least once and possibly twice. From what I understand of Novichok (admittedly very little and mostly quickly gleaned from various websites), it is an unstable binary poison (or class of such) with an organophosphate base that has to be used within half an hour of its being made up. People can correct this statement if they know more or better.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 8 2018 23:15 utc | 14

@13 plod.. thanks for the laugh, if nothing else! all i have to do is put ATTENTION EVERYONE in the post at top and i can look like a goofus too..

Posted by: james | Jul 8 2018 23:19 utc | 15


Here is the timeline. It was hours after going to the park that Dawn was taken ill. More hours passed before Charlie also became ill.

If they handled something in the park, then they should've been affected at the park. Did they bring something back from the park? Then it should be in the house. But the police haven't found a contaminated item.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 8 2018 23:19 utc | 16


Paul Craig Roberts (bit of a Trump apologist, WW3 phobic), New Eastern Outlook, William Engdahl, Michael Hudson,,

Global Research (seems to be doing a lot of recycling and updating old content), consortium news (questionable after the death of Robert Parry), zero hedge (be skeptical) , EIR (larouche has some interesting older stuff), information clearing house, and all provide some alternatives

Then there are the sites that discredit themselves with blatant antisemitism and/or flying saucers which I wont mention by name but which occasionally have an interesting nugget among the nonsense . Counterpunch has basically surrendered itself to get off prop or nots hit list, but occasional articles of interest among the propaganda MSM like content, assuming you can tell which is which

Posted by: Pft | Jul 8 2018 23:23 utc | 17

Any credibility the brits had, has been destroyed in the Scripal matters.

For me, the case is closed..

And while I'm here, a reminder..

Posted by: ben | Jul 9 2018 0:22 utc | 18

Those D-Notices on the Skripal reporting appear to have been confirmed in May ...

Revealed: rebranded D-Notice committee issued two notices over Skripal affair

The Sy Hersh Russian mafia link might explain why Julia Skripal has agreed to go into hiding.

Posted by: chris | Jul 9 2018 1:26 utc | 19

I am a bit worried about the latest `Novichok' event. I don't think it can be from the original application as it should have hydrolyzed by now. I think it is likely that there are small packages of this nerve agent in sachets a bit like hand sanitizer. So each one would have the pure agent in an anhydrous solvent, say 10mg of Novichok and about 5ml DMSO or DMF. Applied to the hands it might take 10-20mins for 0.1mg to diffuse across the skin and get an effect. So the question is -- do they look like a real hand sanitizer? who has them and what are they going to do with them? This is a very scary scenario for the Brits-- almost impossible to detect if its in a sealed package and the agent could be hidden anywhere. These guys need a rapid real time assay for this stuff, so perhaps it might be possible to develop a rapid AChe inactivation assay using a fluorogenic substrate --- tricky but needs doing. I have the feeling this could be just the beginning.

Posted by: cj | Jul 9 2018 1:28 utc | 20

Jackrabbit | Jul 8, 2018 5:44:21 PM | 8

And don't forget; Russia has been transcendent with a most sucessful World Cup.
England's Russophobes (May, Johnson, and Javrit) have utterly failed in their mission to propagandize Russia's World Cup. These lame (alleged) nerve agent attacks are ameturish at best.

It has been repeated many time the U.S.'s strength is the two vast oceans that protect it from invasion.
But, that's a two way street; those very oceans can also serve to isolate the U.S. in the world.
The U.S. is doing a splendid job of isolating itself by its behavior and actions. Trump's tarrifs are quickening that very process.
Russia, China, and a good deal of Asia are now consolidating security and economic agreements against the U.S. hegemon.

Posted by: V | Jul 9 2018 2:32 utc | 21

@22 V

On the question of "Just how lame is the UK?" I have to share what Lavrov said in Vienna on Friday. After the meeting of the countries trying to save the Iran nuke deal, a reporter asked Lavrov why UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson didn't attend the meeting.

Lavrov replied, "I stopped following steps of our partners from the Foggy Albion. I am not interested in this at all."

How low Britain has sunk, from the commanding heights of imperial treachery, down to the level of street theater. Not even perfidious anymore. Just irrelevant.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2018 2:56 utc | 22

@22 V again

As to isolation, I wonder about all this. The US has a culture well suited to living in its own space, alone. And one day rising from its ashes. Some say this is a deliberate repositioning, and I lean to this view somewhat. I think I would like to hope that some of the maneuvering is intentional, but of course it could all be simple hubristic incompetence.

I want to re-share Thierry Meyssan's view on this very point, with thanks to the commenters here who first posted the links. Meyssan thinks that much of what Trump is doing follows a plan that is actually working out fairly well. I'm less convinced, but I think the theory is an important one, and may be useful. It may only describe the results of random chaos, but it describes them well: What Donald Trump is preparing

With regard to the UK, I was going to post that it, unlike the US, will be alone as it isolates itself from the growing multi-polar world. But it has the old Commonwealth. I think this is fracturing as we see that Australia, for example, is pulled increasingly to Asia rather more than to the Atlantic - only its total subjugation to the five eyes keeps it bound.

But even so, when Brexit first was won, I read commentary about the Commonwealth. New Zealand was said to be eager to return to supplying Britain with all the fine products she was denied a market for with Britain's entry into the European Common Market. The talk from Britain was that the UK was by no means short of contacts in the world if it left the EU. So yes, Britain is an utter fool right now, but with a few better people at the helm she can make a good future for herself in the world, I suspect.

So maybe there's Eurasia rising and the old world fragmenting, but also perhaps we still have all the same nations, simply entering into new relationships and alliances.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2018 3:14 utc | 23

@ Greived who ended his comment with:
So maybe there's Eurasia rising and the old world fragmenting, but also perhaps we still have all the same nations, simply entering into new relationships and alliances.

If/when the Western Central Banks change "colors", then you will see real change. Until then it is myriad of lipstick colors on our social contract pig.....follow the money behind the kabuki we are fed

I responded to your Thierry Meyssan link on the Pyongyang Talks thread also....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 9 2018 3:30 utc | 24

Grieved @24

I agree with Meyssan. Trump is intentionally trying to isolate the U.S.

The U.S. society, and economy, is failing. To use the analogy of a living organism, the U.S. has cancer, and that cancer is 'Globalism'. The only way for the U.S. to recuperate and revive is to go into isolation, kill off the cancer (Globalists), then restore its democracy and redevelop its economy. Once this is accomplished (which in the best of circumstances will take several decades) it will be able to re-emerge as a world leader.

This is where Trump is leading the U.S.

Let us all wish him Godspeed!

Posted by: dh-mtl | Jul 9 2018 3:38 utc | 25

Grieved | Jul 8, 2018 11:14:46 PM | 24

Good points. I agree the U.S. is repositioning, but not from a point of strength, but rather weakness. A weakness of national character and a weakness of leadership.
Therein follows a spent military; defective weapon systems; F-35, THADD, Patriot, the last two aircraft carriers (neither yet proven/combat ready), and serious recurring problems with the F-18.
There's more, but that should suffice to the point.
Assuredly Eurasia is consoldating and new relationships are inevitable; but will it be a stable world? I fear not, as long as the hegemon is not constrained.

Posted by: V | Jul 9 2018 3:47 utc | 26

Grieved | Jul 8, 2018 11:14:46 PM | 24
I did respond to your excellent comment; but it vanished into the great intertubes.

Posted by: V | Jul 9 2018 4:02 utc | 27

@24 Grieved

Another brilliant post, BTW. In it, you state:
"Meyssan thinks that much of what Trump is doing follows a plan that is actually working out fairly well. I'm less convinced, but I think the theory is an important one, and may be useful."

I found that article particularly interesting. Like you, I am not prepared to buy its argument yet. But I have set it aside for future reference when more events unfold.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Jul 9 2018 4:03 utc | 28

if there are 40 such kilometers and you estimated 8 thousands,

Eight people per metre of the border - that's a human wall. It's more like a hundred kilometers, and the high estimate is 325,000 people displaced so that's 3,250 people per kilometer or 3.25 people per metre. Any pictures of this human wall?

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jul 9 2018 5:30 utc | 29

@ Daniel who OT on the Pyongyang Talks thread wrote:
How about by literally buying into (or buying out) the alternative "multi-polar" financial world order as I've been providing links showing the supra-national bankster cabal is doing to for months now?

I wrote that I would respond in the latest Open Thread and here I am

The optimist says that China has created and executed 13 5-year plans as a socialist government and are highly unlikely to follow global private finance directives.

The pessimist says that humanity is stuck in a stupid paradigm and will stay so for the foreseeable future.

I am an optimist

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 9 2018 5:40 utc | 30

What's with slandering dead innocents? I'm certain that both Dawn Sturgess & Charles Rowley are real people who were selected because some sociopath, possibly in the security services deemed them 'disposable'.
AFAIK they met at a 12 step meeting which Mr Rowley attended to deal with his fondness for the old 'hammer n tack', whereas Ms Sturgess went there to try and get a handle on her alcohol interest.
Classing them both as 'druggies' which neither appear to be is reacting in exactly the way the butchers who instigated this horror want people to. These labels exist as a way of dehumanising innocents.
The same goes for the emphasis the english gutter press made of their indulging in 'dimps' a practice I once witnessed in a smack loving London squat I shared with fellow travellers an aeon ago - dimps are the result of collecting a bunch of cigarette butts and grabbing the tobacco then putting the soggy mess into a rizla then smoking the end product.
Like most other heroin afficianados Mr Rowley's finances improved drastically once he ceased blowing >£100 per day on yukky gray rocks - meaning that as a drinker rather than an injector Ms Sturgess (as opposed to Mr Rowley) is unlikely to have ever been into dimping and Mr Rowley likely ceased that a ways back.
Right from the start the media has been de-humanising these by all accounts decent human beings whose indulgences had made them obvious targets since their compromised physiologies would cause them to be more likely to die.
It is a sad business all round, but there is no call to join in on the stone throwing at MOA.

Posted by: Herman J Kweeblefezer | Jul 9 2018 6:31 utc | 31

US is not so much isolating itself as dumping the post WWII soft power and petro dollar.
It came out of WWII with a great deal of the worlds wealth and the largest manufacturing power. The wealth has all been wasted on wars and soft power to build an empire. By the early seventies most of its wealth was gone.
That is when Kissinger created the petro dollar. In 1980, the petro dollar was off and running. The US used soft power to pull China into the western system (US empire), but China used that to build up its own strength and wealth. Now Russia and China are creating a large space that is out of the petro dollar and the US empire - an alternative others can join.
The petro dollar is finished, Obama and Kerry were desperately trying to prop it up. That was the reason for the nuke deal. The turning point may have come when Russia displayed its military tech and professionalism in Syria.
TPP is gone, Iran nuke deal no longer needed to preserve the $US, and trade that was used as soft power is going. The US can no longer afford to be an importing nation.
It has to move its currency from high value for importing goods to low value for exporting goods.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 7:41 utc | 32

V | Jul 8, 2018 11:47:48 PM | 26

My long missing post finally showed at #26.
@Grieved 24...

Posted by: V | Jul 9 2018 10:44 utc | 33

james @ 15

I didn't mean to come off in a bad way. I hope that you can forgive me.

Pft @ 17

This really helps. If you want any websites from me, you need only ask.

Posted by: SomeGuy | Jul 9 2018 11:57 utc | 34

Pft, what's wrong with flying saucers?

Posted by: Charles R | Jul 9 2018 12:25 utc | 35

"How low Britain has sunk, from the commanding heights of imperial treachery, down to the level of street theater. Not even perfidious anymore. Just irrelevant."

No, really quite dangerous too. But wouldn't it be wonderful if all these resignations - now Boris, too - have nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit - and everything with a certain woman whose death was reported just a few hours before the first minister exited? The tiny little drop of "novichok" wasn't supposed to kill her, perhaps.

Posted by: veto | Jul 9 2018 14:26 utc | 36

@veto 36

I don't know, how low, but tey are going lower now, that the foreign buffoon has resigned. What a farce.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Jul 9 2018 14:42 utc | 37

Re: GhostShip @29

Valid points. I guess is is much more feasible to check 1 meter, and if there are three persons nearby, you multiply by 100,000 to estimate for 100 km of the border. Of course, in either case this is an example how NOT TO ESTIMATE.

OTOH, when your village is some militants types who made some trenches and fire positions within buildings, and is scheduled to change hands, it is reasonable to wait out the storm elsewhere, and cited numbers of civilian casualties was actually very low given how many people changed status from "Free Syria" to the "regime" (low hundreds?). Of course, the "humanitarian catastrophe" would be avoided if the militants reconciled without bloodshed.

To compare, the change of control at Waco, Texas or at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, had much higher er percentage of casualties. At Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon it was relatively low: one person that was killed could be classified as a militant, and about 40 were not harmed. But the killed person was merely reaching for his pocket, so he could be classified as "innocent civilian". 1 in 40, while in Dara'a province, apparently 1 in 1000, or somewhat more if the number of civilians was exaggerated. Tragic, but it matches the news (not in the "mainstream media") about negotiations, warnings etc.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 9 2018 14:59 utc | 38

>>>> Piotr Berman | Jul 9, 2018 10:59:58 AM | 38

I go to work for eight hours and I come home to find East Daraa is fully under Russian/Syrian control, the southside of Daraa City is encircled and the SAA is in control of the entire Syrian/Jordanian border up to the area controlled by ISIS. As I said previously, it'll all except for ISIS be over by July 15 or so far gone that not even the Americans can walk it back.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jul 9 2018 15:38 utc | 39

The headline in The Guardian today on the death of Sturgis from novichok says that it is "highly likely" that it came from the same batch that was used against the Skripals. In the article (four paragraphs down) they paraphrase the lead detective saying:

“They are unable to say at this moment whether or not the nerve agent found in this incident is linked to the attack on Sergei and Julia Skripal.

This "highly likely" phrase has appeared over and over again in the last four months concerning this story without any evidence being shown.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 9 2018 15:50 utc | 40

Negotiations between the Syrian government and the Kurd's and Arabs on the other side of the Euphrates seem to be well advance. The have watched what happened at Afrin, Manbij, and now Daraa and they know the US is not going to protect them or even stay.
No reports of the US interfering in the negotiations.That leave the jihadis in Idlib to be cleaned. The Islamist groups under Turkish control will most likely come to some agreement with the Syrian government over a longer period of time. With US gone from Syria and Kurd's reaching agreement/reconciliation with the Syrian government, Erdogan will come under pressure from Russia. Territorial expansion for Erdogan is I think, secondary to ensuring the Kurd's do not become a separate state on Turkey's border.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 16:12 utc | 41

@34 some guy.. i already did on the previous thread! your reading comprehension is going to have to get better if you are to take advantage of the links others are providing.. as i said initially - anyone who is interested in learning, needs to read more..

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2018 17:24 utc | 42

james @ 42

Sorry, again. I'll try to be more careful.

Posted by: SomeGuy | Jul 9 2018 17:44 utc | 43

ref: dh-mtl@25

See this article at Zerohedge:,

where the 'cancer' that I refer to in post 25 is well described.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Jul 9 2018 17:46 utc | 44

This is the complete well stated short article from Xinhuanet about US trade war

LONDON, July 8 (Xinhua) -- Chinese Ambassador to Britain Liu Xiaoming said that the U.S.-China trade dispute poses a severe challenge to the world economic order and reflects three conflicts of views between the two countries.

Liu said in a signed article published on The Sunday Telegraph that the United States recently went back on its words after reaching a principled consensus with China.

"The dark clouds of 'trade war' are once again looming over the Americas, Europe, Asia and Africa, and posing a severe challenge to the world economic order and the multilateral trade regime," he said.

Liu said that deep down, the trade dispute is much more than just a problem of trade, and it reveals three conflicts of views between China and the United States in terms of the world, cooperation and development.

"With increased tariffs on steel and aluminium from the European Union, Canada and Japan, the U.S. wields its 'tariff baton' against its traditional allies," he said.

"That view on the world is known as 'America first,' and it means that anyone seen as having 'moved America's cheese,' be it an ally or not, is punished," he said.

By contrast, China sees its relations with the world as based on mutual respect, fairness, justice and win-win cooperation, and aims to safeguard world peace and promote common development, Liu said.

In terms of cooperation, he said that the United States has laid bare its belief in unilateralism, protectionism, "zero-sum games" and "beggar-thy-neighbor" approach, which have been widely questioned and opposed by the international community.

China, by contrast, follows its time-honored philosophy of "strength through unity and weakness in isolation," champions open, inter-connected, mutually beneficial and win-win cooperation, and strives to uphold World Trade Organization (WTO) rules, support the multilateral trade regime and build an open world economy, he said.

"To maintain its competitive edge in a globalized world where the future and interests of all countries are intertwined, the U.S. should build on its own strengths and cooperate with other countries," he said.

"Slowing others down or depriving others of the right to a better life is an unjust cause that will gain little support and may in the end backfire," he added.

Liu urged the United States to recognize the overarching trend, say goodbye to its old mindset and work with other countries to blaze a new trail of win-win cooperation so as to achieve development and prosperity.

"Under the current situation, it is all the more important that China, the UK and the rest of the world unite against unilateralism and protectionism, uphold the world economic order and the multilateral trade regime, safeguard the common interests of all mankind, and work for prosperity and stability of the world economy," he said.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 9 2018 19:43 utc | 45

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 8, 2018 10:56:49 PM | 22
(Lavrov comments in Vienna - SouthFront link)

Thanks for the link. His cited comment re Albion was unusually undiplomatic, for Lavrov.

This one, a few lines below your quote, reflects a very solid spirit of optimism and confidence in Trump's ability to recognise the difference between wheat and chaff and behave like an adult when grown-up-ness is appropriate.

Question: Is the agenda of the meeting between President of Russia Vladimir Putin and US President Donald Trump ready? What will they discuss?

Sergey Lavrov: Everyone is talking about it, including the US President’s National Security Adviser John Bolton. There will be no formal paper. Both presidents are experienced and influential enough to decide themselves what to discuss.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 9 2018 19:49 utc | 46


The Reals News Network has improved quite a bit and is much better than Democracy Now (<- bullshit):

The following report is not getting the exposure that it should:

Israel Is Arming Ukraine’s Blatantly Neo-Nazi Militia the Azov Battalion

Western media outlets have finally begun reporting on the neo-Nazi threat that is growing inside Ukraine, which is a close Western ally against Russia. Well, one of the most scandalous reports now shows that another key U.S. ally, Israel, is in fact arming some of these neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine who have carried out attacks on ethnic or religious minority groups, including the Roma, and also Jews inside Ukraine. Journalist Asa Winstanley wrote about this for the website The Electronic Intifada in an article titled “Israel Is Arming Neo-Nazis in Ukraine.”

Posted by: Tobin Paz | Jul 9 2018 20:21 utc | 47

dh the link will bring up a google map. Airstrip can still be seen center screen. Camp was at a spring in the creek. Camped there for about four months to clean up the Wood River catchment area. I put most of the tracks in and we got road trains in there to get the bulls out. There was owner operator would bring his road train into that country and cart a load out and up to Kunnanurra for shipping.,126.9702902,1663m/data=!3m1!1e3

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 21:18 utc | 48
"China to buy oil from Iran, stops US purchase
Beijing, July 8, IRNA – An executive from China's Dongming Petrochemical Group, an independent refiner from Shandong province of China, says the refinery has stopped purchase of crude oil from the US and is going to buy crude from Iran."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 21:58 utc | 49

The money behind to power. I have never gone into this before as it seemed very much like guessing how many jelly beans in a jar.
It has seemed as though the Trump admin is working from a US nationalist rather than a globalist perspective and that these are now two separate groups so I looked up money. Old money, new money.
it seems there are roughly three groups. European and UK old money. Rothschild, Windsor, and no dounbt more in London and Europe.
Then there is the US old money. half a dozen or so inbred families that made there money in the early days up until Rockefeller and standard oil.
Then there is the new money. Silicon valley and the likes of Soros.
Although these groups are all interconnected, new money and European money are not going to give a shit about the US domestic scene. They are more concerned with globalization.
US old money may be a little concerned at the imminent collapse of the US and its power.
The other groups together would have more money than the US group, but the US old money would wield far more influence in the US that the others.
It may be the US old money that is backing Trump.
Does this make sense?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 22:50 utc | 50

By separating the money into groups like in my previews comment it could be seen that although they are all interconnected, it could be seen the the likes of old US money would be concerned primarily with US power as a sovereign nation, same also for Windsor and other old UK money being primarily interested in UK power and sovereignty, and the new money and the likes of Rothschild's not giving a shit about any country.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 23:11 utc | 51

DH, Peter AU 1 @ 48:

I am a first-generation Australian living in Sydney. Terms like "blackfella", "whitefella" and "yellerfella" are no longer used publicly, not in Sydney anyway. Indigenous people may use "blackfella" among themselves but for a non-Indigenous person to use the same term in talking to or about Indigenous people is still considered an insult, in much the same way that black Americans may use "nigger" among themselves but would consider the term demeaning if other people use it.

Acceptable terms (apart from Aboriginals or Indigenous people) are First Peoples or First Nations, similar to what is used in Canada. The term "Koori" was popular for a while to describe Indigenous people in southeast Australia. I did work for a short time at Gadigal Information Services which runs Koori Radio in Redfern as part of a work secondment program and as far I know the radio station hasn't changed its name. In southwest Australia the term "Nyungar" (or "Nyoongar") might still be acceptable to refer to the Indigenous people there.

@ DH: There are still cattle stations in far inland parts of Australia (not so many sheep stations perhaps) but since 1967 when Aboriginal people were finally accepted as citizens and were entitled to the benefits of citizenship - which included getting a fair day's pay for a fair day's work - there are not very many Aboriginal people employed on cattle stations any more.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 9 2018 23:19 utc | 52

@ Jen. I would class Sydney and all western NSW as Urban but thanks for the terms used there.

Re your comment to dh. Racism is extremely bad in some parts of the Kimberlies. At Mount house station they were turning over two full crews of white city kids per year. The young aboriginal people, although they although the lived cattle work would not work at these place as they were treated as blacks. It took a lot of effort for me to get a small crew from the local community. First an old bloke asked he could come and work for me. He was sick of sitting in the community and wanted to get back out in a stock camp. After a few weeks his mate rings him (we had a satphone) and asks what I am like and then he comes out. He was perhaps mid forties and still quite handy. Another two weeks and the young bloke I had been asking to work for me (I had seen him working stock) calls and has a talk to the other two and then he comes out. The young blokes like that had to work for a mine or otherwise go a long way from their own country to get away from racism.
Even the greens at Mornington, at the start they employed the locals to catch turtles in a water hole so the scientist types could tag and study them. Trouble is, the locals weren't going to throw good tucker back in the waterhole so they were in disgrace from the greens after that. Tended to use them as tourist attractions instead.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 23:42 utc | 53

To clarify. I traveled around Oz in the Sixties. I had a few different jobs but the cattle station was the best. Didn't get paid much but I was in my element with the horses....and the young Aboriginal/First Nation/Indigenous whatever blokes were great. They really knew horses. I did witness a few nasty racial incidents in Sydney.

Posted by: dh | Jul 10 2018 0:00 utc | 54

@50 Peter AU 1

You asked in an earlier thread if I had caught your timeline and link list for the petrodollar. I did see it but took your cue to revisit, and your chronology is quite fascinating, thank you.

I've been catching up on your discussions, especially with Daniel, about Kissinger and the current changes. Interesting that right where I catch up to you is your comment about the money behind the players.

A very great part of it looks a lot like oil doesn't it? We tend to forget that oil is pure liquid money, black gold, and it sloshes and swills through the world into the bank vaults of anyone who can grab it from someone else who thought they were holding it.

I'm still putting some things together, so this a brief "howdy" in passing. But don't lose that thought about an oil crisis, with Iran as fulcrum.

I'm in discussion with Daniel about Iran, on a slower timeline, but studying some of his materials about the revolution I find it striking that BP essentially threw its weight behind the CIA coup that ousted Mosaddegh, and then again against the Shah when he went off-policy and wouldn't renew the 25-year BP contract.

So now that you raise this notion of Iran being gamed into shutting down oil - as a strike to slow down China - it all suggests that one should raise one's gaze to the macro horizons. I do want to say that we will discover much of the meaning in the moves of the west by observing how Xi and Putin counter and defeat those moves - and I mean this in great seriousness, although it has its fun side also.

I noted your link to the excellent Mercouris piece on the US's formal recognition of the new multi-player world. Putin said a similar thing recently, about how the deck is being reshuffled. I think the big people in the world are seeing it this way, as a time of change that is not necessarily unwelcome. The deals are being reviewed, and remade.

Perhaps instead of looking at the uni-polar hegemony giving way to the rise of the multi-polar world, it makes more sense to think that many powers and interests are seeing how the world is changing, and have moreover in some part agreed for it to change, and are themselves realigning into a proliferation of new arrangements. It's an exciting time, in some ways, mainly because we actually stand a chance of watching all this happen and understanding what is going on.

Good luck with the rabbit hole of deep money - keep us posted.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 10 2018 2:47 utc | 55

@ Grieved. Thanks. After my research on the petro dollar, I feel the CIA turned on on the shah (perhaps not right as he moved to the US) because with the introduction of the petro dollar, less oil meant more petro dollars for the US to use. I should have checked on the date for the start of the revolution to add into the petro dollar dollar sequence. The revolution, or the date I found, kicked of 4-5 weeks after the first barrel of oil came through the pipeline.
I think I read a comment in one of the threads that the communists were ready to, or in the process of, entering into agreements/relations with the world in general. How can you create lots of petro dollars if those 4 million barrels of Iranian oil come back on the market. I would guess the CIA just cut the knees from under the communist so the clerics would take power. Having the Clerics take over and the purposely dragged out hostage crises was like ignighting a second stage rocket. The price of oil just kept skyrocketing.

Back in the money side of things Goldberg Sachs was the visible face of the money in the new Trump admin.
Silicon valley like a borderless world and Rothberg and Windsor money would like to keep the current order as I think in the Kissinger new world order, money may have little power compared to energy in the great powers game.
It is these groups that would have control of most of the media and perhaps the bulk of the puppets in washington.
Silicon valley would obviously exert a lot of control over the on line media.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 4:02 utc | 56

Peter AU @56, if you're referring to the Iranian Revolution when you mention "the communists," you should know that actual communists were a tiny minority in the Revolution. Mostly, it was socialists/leftie progressives from academia and the industries. I don't think I've ever heard a specific date for when the Revolution began. It grew slowly, but the mass strikes and protests dominated 1978.

The Shah fled in December, 1978 and many of his bourgeois supporters followed soon after. Some would consider that the moment the Revolution "won." But the hard work of establishing a socialist democratic republic was yet to come.

Grieved. Great to see that you're working your way through that Iranian Revolution stuff.

If y'all want to wade into BP and the history of the oil industry, one can't go wrong with:
The Secret of the Seven Sisters 1of4, Desert Storms

Or all 4-parts together:

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 4:25 utc | 57

James Corbett has been producing some very insightful videos/articles for the past 10 years or so. There have been many comments here on MoA about the end of the US/AZ Empire/petrodollar, with some speculation it's being done purposefully. Well, 4 years ago, James wrote:

The Great Decoupling: How the West is Engineering its Own Downfall

Corbett • 04/14/2014

After spending a few minutes on the Japan floods (he is a Canadian expat), his latest video is thought-provoking.

China Warns of "Peace Disease" And "Unavoidable" War With US)

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 5:45 utc | 58

I am not good on political correctness Daniel, nor have I studied the the minutiae of the factions in the Iranian revolution.
Any additions by those that have is welcome.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 6:19 utc | 59

@ Daniel, there are a lot of comments here I do tend to brush over and and forget if it is not something I am looking into. Perhaps what is needed is a way of bring the various lines of research together.
I tend to go for the foundations.
Going by what you and Grieved said about the sequence of events required for the petro dollar, it is not readily available in book form nor on the net. If so, then the various lines of research all need to be pulled together into a readable piece, perhaps article length rather than book length and placed where illiterate peasants like myself can find it. This illiterate peasant is not up to the job.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 6:38 utc | 60

Daniel | Jul 10, 2018 1:45:29 AM | 58

If I may suggest; go very carefully with Corbett.
I read the link you provided (The Great Decoupling: How the West is Engineering its Own Downfall) and failed to see a connection alleging Goldman Sachs was responsible for the BRICS.
In my experience with Corbett and his website, he is a bit too easily led into conspiritorial thinking.
I no longer follow him or his cohort, Sibal Edmonds.
Just sayin...

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 6:55 utc | 61

A thought here on the collapse of US hegemony and globalism, and a move back to a great power world. From the great power world, can we move towards an interconnected world of sovereign states?
Impossible to do from a globalized world dominated by the hegemon.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 6:57 utc | 62

Is everyone kinda happy about the Thai saga?

They should be even though it became obvious very early on in the piece that the Thai military dictatorship is using the boys to make inroads into what has always been staunch 'redshirt' territory. The redshirts are the political movement ousted from government by the army for the made up crime of 'bribing' the poor by allocating health and housing funding to the impoverished rather than giving all to corporations.
Every time the politicians are sighted around the cave, they have shunned their general's uniforms for yellow shirts and scarves. Yellow shirts are the garb of the urban bourgois who aided by amerika took over Bangkok airport and were left alone, whereas the redshirts were harrassed, beaten & shot for blocking streets when they demonstrated in support of the then elected redshirt government.
I'm just happy the kids seem to be getting out safely but now the kids are mostly out they are being oppressed in some incredibly petty games as the government tries to ensure thet they get maximum benefit. The kids are now being treated as the serfs the elite has always regarded them as with doctors keeping them away from their parents who they haven't even been able to speak to by phone yet.
The business of preventing sleazy neolib self-promoter Elon Musk and his toy submarine was great - full marks but barring the boys of the wild boars soccer team from going to the World Cup final in Moscow - where they have been offered an all expenses paid trip by FIFA is crooked. The army will have the next few months maybe years of these kids lives all planned out. They will be forced to do a national tour in a forlorn effort to persuade ordinary Thais that the tyrants are caring if not sharing tyrants.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jul 10 2018 8:29 utc | 63

Debsisdead | Jul 10, 2018 4:29:03 AM | 63

A bit heavy there, no? Parents have been visiting their children but through glass.
A couple of the children have chest infections from the extended stay in total darkness within the cave.
Possibly medically over cautious but, better safe than sorry, no?
You carry quite a chip there DID...
And, to be clear, I hate the heavy U.S. influence in Thailand, but, little by little the U.S. is losing its grip to Russia and China.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 8:51 utc | 64

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 2:57:00 AM | 62

The US hegemon has collapsed but not globalism. Countries exporting more than they import remain "globalist". This includes China and OPEC.

Can we move towards an interconnected world of sovereign states?

That is a right wing plot to make their ideas sound nice. You cannot be interconnected and "sovereign". To be interconnected you need treaties and arbitration which means you are "dependent" on your partners.

It is not what is going on in the world, just some spin masters try to make it so.

This here is the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

The SCO's main goals are as follows: strengthening mutual trust and neighbourliness among the member states; promoting their effective cooperation in politics, trade, the economy, research, technology and culture, as well as in education, energy, transport, tourism, environmental protection, and other areas; making joint efforts to maintain and ensure peace, security and stability in the region; and moving towards the establishment of a democratic, fair and rational new international political and economic order.

This is basically the concept of the EU. As soon as you have established inter-state "order" all populist parties who want to create rules of their own can do is "LEAVE".

These are the member states

Thus, currently:

• the SCO comprises eight member states, namely the Republic of India, the Republic of Kazakhstan, the People's Republic of China, the Kyrgyz Republic, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Russian Federation, the Republic of Tajikistan, and the Republic of Uzbekistan;

• the SCO counts four observer states, namely the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, the Republic of Belarus, the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Republic of Mongolia;

• the SCO has six dialogue partners, namely the Republic of Azerbaijan, the Republic of Armenia, the Kingdom of Cambodia, the Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal, the Republic of Turkey, and the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka.

Their members are the 3 billion+ majority of mankind.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 10 2018 8:56 utc | 65

somebody | Jul 10, 2018 4:56:33 AM | 65
Their members are the 3 billion+ majority of mankind.

46% to be precise. Not quite a majority. The SCO is offers a security faction, not unlike NATO.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 9:05 utc | 66

Iranian Leaders have Longstanding Ties to US, Israel

Posted by: El Cabong | Jul 10 2018 9:19 utc | 67

Posted by: V | Jul 10, 2018 4:51:06 AM | 64

No not 'heavy' at all 'man' just realistic. They have been able to wave thru glass but not speak to each other even by phone, what is that about other than the usual oppress the peasants nonsense which Thai elites has been doing to the people forever. They don't want the parents to distract from their attempted indoctrination. I saw the graun tried to justify it all by saying a couple of the kids had a cough, what nonsense this is out and out abduction. They have told parents SFA treating them with contempt. I f you believe that all this is for the kids' mental health I know a couple of good if somewhat used bridges you should be interested in purchasing - got em from me old mate Arfur Daly.

The mob in control who took over from the elected government by force, have shot thousands of people just like the football team some of them were even younger. Nothing has changed certainly not their greed or megalomania. They have decided to try and profit from the kids misery as they have been promising 'open elections' for a long time but cannot get the numbers to guarantee the result so this is just another cheap arse strategy to keep the people enslaved. What other boss class pimped out two generations of young women to fat germans, englanders and amerikans? None that is what. Even Burma didn't sink that low.

The military imagine they can persuade the people to vote against their interests and this is how they think they will do it but the mob up that way remind me a lot of the Tangata Whenua of Aotearoa - they aren't silly or easily led astray by arseholes.
If you consider my objection to creeps like General Prayut Chan-o-cha as having a chip on my shoulder, there isn't much hope for ya. I like Thais a lot. By that I mean ordinary shitkickers like me. A big mob of them have settled in Aotearoa and they have gelled into the community straight away. Altho by Thais I guess I mean the people from up around Chiang Rai and Chiang My who are usually anything but what the military bosses would call Thai since they are generally from minority clans and/or Khmer - not than many tourists would notice as their eyeballs really stray above a Thai person's chest.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jul 10 2018 9:39 utc | 68

Somebody "You cannot be interconnected and "sovereign""

Bull shit. I am connected to everyone that comments here at moa, yet I would not let them come and shit on the floor of my house and I would expect all others to be the same..mmmm.. yet then again you can never be sure of what is on the other end of the WWW.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 9:43 utc | 69

To put it a more politically correct way, would you find it no problems, if anyone that commented here at moa simply walked into your house and imposed their idea of how things should be on you?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 9:50 utc | 70

Debsisdead | Jul 10, 2018 5:39:05 AM | 68
So, now you attack me.
Listen buddy; YOU can tell me nothing about a country I've lived in for more than 16 years.
I live the real life here in a small village in LaLi. Not little farangville. I don't even know any westerners.
I speak passable (some say very good) Thai, to where I can travel independently. Knowing the language is a window into the culture.
You can speak to all the Thai expats you want; that ain't boots on the ground! And like most expats, have an axe to grind, as you well know.
Frankly, I'm somewhat taken aback at your ignorant opinions about whats going on here.
Normally you post informative well written articles.
But on this; you're as wrong as two left shoes.
The government has run a competent, profesional, and highly effective rescue effort and as I type, bringing out the last 5 footballers which includes the coach.
And that's a fact, not opinion.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 10:00 utc | 71

When I was in Thailand most I met with had great respect for their King and Queen. Back in the day, it was only the astuteness of the Siam royals that kept Siam sovereign in the time of European empires. No different in the face of the US empire. No different today. The military is loyal to the Thai royal family and will stand against the US empire. Red shirts, yellow shirts, I forget which is which, but one will stand with the military and royals to protect their sovereignty against the US empire.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 10:34 utc | 72

Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 6:34:48 AM | 72
Red shirts are Thaksin followers; backed by the U.S..
The yellow shirts are Royalists (mostly) and conservatives, supporting the Royal family.
Thai politics are anything but stable; I've been here through 2 and possibly 3 (I lost count) coups in 16+ years.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 10:44 utc | 73

Thanks for the heads up V

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 10:51 utc | 74

Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 6:51:59 AM | 74

Very welcome...

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 11:03 utc | 75

Re: DiD @68 comment & others.

It seems to me that Thailand should be a troubling country from the viewpoint of a person of the west because there is a significant amount of western sex tourism and this seems exploitative.

Thailand does seem a lovely country (and the people also) but I can't believe that this 'sex tourism' role is something that most Thais are happy about. And this does raise questions about the nature of how Thailand is governed as well as how the west use the Thais people.

I also can't believe that Thai people are happy that their democratic elected government was overthrown in a coup d'etat in 2014 and that they have been living order a military junta ever since.

But I haven't visited, let alone lived in, Thailand, so what do I know?

Posted by: ADKC | Jul 10 2018 11:10 utc | 76


You haven't a clue about any other culture and what they have survived other than your own , have you?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 11:19 utc | 77

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 5:43:47 AM | 69
Bull shit. I am connected to everyone that comments here at moa, yet I would not let them come and shit on the floor of my house and I would expect all others to be the same..mmmm.. yet then again you can never be sure of what is on the other end of the WWW.

You can do all you want in virtual life. Reality is different.

You live in Australia? Australia got a China-Australia free trade agreement.

You bet it involves the regulation of the movement of people between the two countries.

Australia provides guaranteed access to Chinese citizens for the following categories ...

Australia enjoys a trade surplus? You depend on the people who buy your stuff.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 10 2018 11:22 utc | 78

V @65

I was trying to find sources that verify that the Red shirts are backed by US. Can't find anything. Would be grateful if you could provide a source.

(Not disagreeing: I can see that US might support any side to cause chaos but can find nothing that supports your statement.)

Posted by: ADKC | Jul 10 2018 11:24 utc | 79

Mostly, the problem with westerner's judgements of Thailand, are based on ideological values.
Westerners would be better served by cleaning their own homes before making ignorant judgements based on nothing but their twisted idealogical and hypocritical, I might add, values projectyed on the rest of the world at large.
A world they flat out do not understand; and judge cultures they don't know by their own, uneducated, inexperienced, ignorant existence.
The world is a treasure trove of knowledge fast being destroyed by ignorance and hubris...

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 11:26 utc | 80

ADKC | Jul 10, 2018 7:24:20 AM | 79
No, you do the work. I've lived it.
Sweat a bit, or more likely you'll just forget it.
If I'm wrong, so be it...

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 11:29 utc | 81

Looking at your comments is very much much like looking at a machine laying a new layer of asphalt on a thousand K long highway. becomes tedious after a bit.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 11:31 utc | 82

Probably wont do, but it would be good to run into you sometime V. Your post @80 I have not seen nor heard anything like that. Plenty of do-gooders and ideologists but rare to find somebody who takes people as they are - as people.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 11:39 utc | 83

V I should add to that ... not many in the western world....

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 11:41 utc | 84

V @81

Oh, I've looked and I can't find anything. I'll look again. But as it stands your comment appears not to be the case.

Could it be that you are trying to leverage this sites presumed anti-US bias to support the military rule & yellow-shit movement?

Red Shirt pro-poor policies such as near-free healthcare, subsidised rice, education reforms for the masses doesn't sound like the policies that the US would support?

Posted by: ADKC | Jul 10 2018 11:51 utc | 85

Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 7:41:49 AM | 83/84
Your post @80 I have not seen nor heard anything like that.

That's truly unfortunate. It's why I shun westerners.
They truly do not get it!

Probably wont do, but it would be good to run into you sometime V.

I'm a bit of a hermit, not sure I could do it.
But, thank you, you've understood. That's something.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 11:53 utc | 86

...and they're all out, including the coach of Moo Pa (The Wild Boars).
Fucking awesome (Sud Yot) Thailand!
Three days! Three days and all the footballers are out and safe!
That's as good as it gets...

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 12:15 utc | 87

Regards to you V. What you wrote in that post is something I have not been able to put into words.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 12:32 utc | 88

Peter AU 1 | Jul 10, 2018 8:32:21 AM | 88

Kind words, thank you; but that you understood it; it couldn't have been far from your voice.

Posted by: V | Jul 10 2018 12:51 utc | 89

Peter AU 1@77

You know nothing about me or my culture(s) or where I have lived.

As regards Thailand, I am reluctant ever to visit because the involvement of westerners seems to be exploitative of the Thai people. In particular, the prostitution of young women and children for the gratification of visiting westerners.

Posted by: ADKC | Jul 10 2018 14:31 utc | 90

Re. Skripals. To me, something similar happening to Dawn + Charlie reinforces my original take of some for-now ‘unknown’ encounter with a toxic substance such as I first suggested, food, or mushrooms (because the only 2 serious poisonings in my own life were exactly like that, one person died. Too sad.)

May-Bojo (and/or some ppl under them), I’m repeating myself, just jumped on the oppo’ to claim Russia-Putin-Done-it, without a-hem thinking, typical-terminal-hubris.

The Russians had nothing to do with it — no benefit and showing ultimate stupidity with a ‘signature’, plus killing Sergei easy and no way spy-vs-spy would have involved Yulia (Honor Code.) Neither did the GB Gvmt. or its S-S gain anything. Besides becoming an international laughing stock!

Ppl are seriously underestimating the stupidity of pols at the top. Really.

Many, like myself, immediately thought of the CCTV vid of a couple walking by in the passage just before the Skripals were ‘affected’, released (imho inadverently, just as ‘some’ footage - they were first published as showing the Skripals, ridiculous, no resemblance..) by the Po-lice.

The Sun

A +++ match imho (judge for yourself..) for Dawn and Charlie.

“Jack” (?) did the compo, kudos. (click for big)

The question of the red bag is murky, not taken up for now.

A meet-point in space and time. What, how, why, that needs working out.

Fentanyl (again..) is probably the most likely substance.

Last August, the National Crime Agency said that at least 60 people had died in the previous eight months after taking fentanyl. The majority of the deaths were in Yorkshire, Humberside and Cleveland.

Swindon advertiser

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 10 2018 14:58 utc | 91

Peter AU @59

Whatever did any of my preceding comments have to do with "political correctness?"

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 18:42 utc | 92

Posted by: V | Jul 10, 2018 2:55:46 AM | 61
"failed to see a connection alleging Goldman Sachs was responsible for the BRICS."

From the link Corbett provided:

Goldman Sachs White Paper titled, from 2001: "Building Better Global Economic BRICs"

Thanks for the advice on caution. I tend to be pretty skeptical of all information sources. I encourage everyone to be especially critical of sources one already trusts, as psychologists have told us for more than a century that those are the sources most likely to mislead us (whether deliberately or not).

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 18:47 utc | 93

Thanks, Debsisdead @63 for bringing up the Thai cave story.

Whether an actual accident, or a staged event, the Thai military dictatorship surely used it for their propaganda purposes.

My first thought when reading about it - as the World Cup was dominating so many people's attention and reshaping their views of Mother Russia -was it was interesting that a football (soccer) team of children ("Save the Children," Bana and her NGO handlers bleated) were trapped in the haunts of the Cave Bear.

But assuming real children were really saved, I am thrilled for them and their loved ones.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 18:56 utc | 94

El Cabong @67

Your Henry Makow article makes some claims of fact that I have not yet been able to confirm, but are not in the realm of the unbelievable. I've been posting a number of links to mostly Iranian sources showing that the Iranian Revolution was at the least hijacked by the Ayatollah's boys who were in collusion with the AZ Empire's Intelligence Community, if not actually designed and carried out by those spooks from the start.

I cannot see how such a situation would be anything less than monumentally important. And therefore, am rather gobsmacked by the overall lack of interest in investigating the evidence.

I'm thankful that Grieved has been looking at, and apparently absorbing some of these sources.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 19:20 utc | 95

Peter AU. I posted my information on Trump's financial situation here:

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 19:36 utc | 96

psychohistorian. I'll try again re. China/Brics buy in or buy out by IMF/World Bank

Building Better Global Economic BRICs
White Paper for Goldman Sachs by Jim O’Neill 30th November 2001

“And the BRICS association that economists were wringing their hands over in previous years as a major threat to American-led western economic neoliberalism? It was actually created by Goldman Sachs, an outgrowth of a research paper that was convincing enough that it actually caused the four nations (of the then-“BRIC” grouping) to start a political process that made the paper into reality.”

“It seems that as we enter the world of the “new cold war” there is western backing behind every aspect of this new rivalry.”

“The project is called the Belt and Road Initiative… other notable members along with the Jewish state include Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Qatar and the Palestinian Territories.

The IMF is all in on the renamed “Belt and Road Initiative” (BRI)

The City of London financial cabal notes:

I've got more, but as always, let's see how this goes (down) first.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 21:40 utc | 97

Daniel 96

I checked back on your linked comment. In the two written articles the phrases I have quoted catch the eye.
The Independent link... "a new study suggests"..."new study by the Wall Street Journal claims"
The LA times link ... "Ross, then an investment banker working for Rothschild Inc"

I have listened to Corbett before and the Jake video appears similar. There are reams of this type of material on the internet, all trying to 'guess how many jelly beans are in the jar'

All these money people will have connections in the past, but I am looking for solid current links.
Rather than starting with the reams of claims made on the internet, I feel it is best to start as I have, in seeing if the money can be divided into groups then adding solid current connections by tracking out from this point.

The world is moving back to the old system of great powers, so in this context it is best to start with the old money. At the moment, I see Windsor fits as old money for England (not that it is a great power now, but they are still trying to play the game) And there are a number of old money families in the US who would play the great power game.

China are very different in mindset and outlook to the other great powers. Much more subtle, moving in with money and win win deals, often losing it when other powers cut in with military or regime change operation. I still have to come to a full understanding, but the Chinese mindset and culture re the great power game goes back many centuries.

There has been a lot of to and fro in these threads ever since Trump was elected as to if he is working to a nationalist agenda - or just an old whore in a new dress to fool the masses, the elite/money a monolith who meet and and agree to work to the same agenda.
I have felt the the attacks against Trump were genuine rather than a ploy, but was perhaps 55-60% that way inclined with the other percentage leaning towards the attacks against Trump being a ploy.

Now in dividing the money into groups I would lean 90% towards the attacks against Trump being genuine. The dossier was of official Brit origin, so that attack I now think was UK old money vs US old money which is backing Trump in a nationalist agenda.

I hadn't slept for a couple days tossing that question around of if the elite were all in this together or if there is competition between them and the meaning of Kissinger being back on the scene. got a bit cranky and irrational on the other thread before I knocked off last night :(

Will take it a bit easier now, but the next step for me is to revisit the Engdahl piece and check those he named as the money and oil and check what their current connections are to old US money also Kissinger in this regard, but everything I have studied of him so far suggests that he is highly nationalist towards the US as a great power.
Mercouris in the video at Duran spoke about how the world has now gone back the the old game of great powers with the recent US military posture paper, and I believe he is correct. Now I will be working from the basis that the world has changed to a world of three great powers plus some smaller powers trying to play the game, and the elite and the money now need to be looked in this view of competing powers. We now liv in a very different world from the post WWII era. That era is finished.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 23:35 utc | 98

Peter. Both Jake and James provide links to the sources for every statement they make. You're the one looking for easy outs. Like everyone else, they have their biases and agendas (both of which I profoundly disagree), but that's hardly an excuse to ignore their evidences. Check their sources for more than weasel words.

Simple fact: Wilbur Ross was a Rothschilds employee who proceeded to bail out Trump with Rothschild money (money he has not shown he paid back) because he thought Trump might be useful to them later. Look the guy up at websites you trust. He's a scumbag, and Trump owes him everything. And now he has real power.

Seriously. You claim to be so worldly. Do you really believe that a New Jersey born "real estate developer" can rise from his "humble beginnings" of being given a low-rent housing project by his daddy to doing tens of billions of dollars in real estate in Manhattan, and owning casinos in Atlantic City without being deeply beholden to both Wall Street banksters and Mafias? And we barflies had quite an extended discourse on how there's little difference between those two as well as the "Intelligence Community."

I was born and raised in the relatively honest backwater of Chicago (our most notorious gangsters came from NYC and NJ), but I have seen how this works. I doubt it's much different in Sydney or Melbourne.

Apparently it's good enough for you that Trump says he's "an outsider," and claims to only owe the banksters $1/3 billion (though he refuses to release his financial statements). There are multiple lines of evidence from multiple independent, and often competing sources that show he's lying about that just like everything else.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 11 2018 1:56 utc | 99

@95 Daniel

I skated over the link from El Cabong at #65, but since you responded to it I went to look. I couldn't skim but a few sentences before recoiling. It's ad hominem against the regime, which is a flag, but more than this it's far too devoid of nuance to be an accurate picture of reality.

What seems clear from Mansoor's seminal timeline of events that all commentators are relying on (I do assume that it's accurate - but let the record show no one has validated this) for the revolutionary time is that CIA mounted a color revolution, and although I haven't studied this deeply enough yet, my instinctive guess is that this is what appears as the so-called "democratic, socialist" movement on the streets and in the mix.

Khomeini led a very organized movement and had strong connection with grass roots Iran, although one faction advising the west said this was not the case. It's clear that it WAS the case, and the advisement was wrong.

The CIA was ready to remove the Shah and replace him with an "anti-communist" leader. Khomeini stood out as the strongest force in the game, and definitely anti-communist. Khomeini talked with the CIA and persuaded them that he would be a sweet friend of the west.

One says these things during revolutions. It matters not what allies you make in getting to power. What matters is who remains after you have power.

I must say that I think you attach too much importance to what moves were made back in that time. There's no way that revolutionary Iran was ever a CIA puppet, after it gained full control of its country. Even Brezhinski in the timeline says that a lot was going on at the time, lots of players and deals

My overarching suggestion - and it reflects my only real interest in this story - is that it doesn't matter what Khomeini was 40 years ago. What matters is, what is Iran today?

It's very crucial I think to recognize that "communism" back in that day was synonymous with atheism, or at least secularism. So of course the deeply religious Islamic movements would be considered by the west to be antithetical. But those days have changed, although I notice many commentators who still conflate the two things (i.e. socialism and atheism).

We have socialism now, of a kind that lives very well with religion and secularism, and democracy. Socialism is beginning to come into its own. We have Chinese, Cuban, and Iranian, to name the most well known. Iran is a democratic, Islamic and socialist revolutionary nation. I'm still reading Mazaheri to understand more about what it is today. I'm wary of the word "Islamist", which I've seen people ascribe to Iran, as if it was the Iranians who bred the jihadis and sent them across the world. "Islamist" to my ear sounds like something from Langley and Riyadh rather more than from Persia.

We are dealing with a simple Islamic nation that incorporates into its system a great deal of democracy - probably much more at grass roots than in the west - and also socialism, which is to say that moral imperatives are part of the system, including commerce, and the equitable distribution and ownership of the wealth of the land among the people.

There's a reason the west desires to destroy Iran. If Iran were despotic, the west would have no problem dealing with it. Socialism, democracy and ownership by the people - not so much.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 11 2018 2:34 utc | 100

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