Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 08, 2018

Pyongyang Talks - How Pompeo Put The Cart Before The Horse

U.S. Secretary of State Pompeo just visited North Korea to further the agenda President Trump and Chairmen Kim had agreed upon in Singapore. The visit did not go well:

The specifics of what happened behind closed doors remain unclear. Whether Pompeo somehow annoyed his counterpart, or pressed too hard, or whether the North Koreans are simply reverting to their hot-and-cold tactics, is hard to say. But the regime made sure to have the final word, and it was not pleasant.

As he was leaving, Pompeo told reporters the conversations were “productive and in good faith.” Hours later North Korean state media issued a statement that did not mention him by name but called the demands he presented “gangster-like.”

The Trump administration has long set out its goal as CVID, the "Complete, Verifiable and Irreversible Dismantlement" of North Korea nuclear weapons program. After applying "maximum pressure" on North Korea through international sanctions, the U.S. believed that long planned steps North Korea took to start talks with its adversaries were already the total surrender it was hoping for. Somehow the people became convinced that North Korea would give up its nuclear weapons. From a Washington Post story:

Amid increasing scrutiny of North Korea's commitment to giving up its weapons, Pompeo came to Pyongyang in a bid to hammer out the details of a denuclearization plan. While the secretary told reporters that progress was made "on almost all of the central issues” and involved “good-faith negotiations,” North Korea said the U.S. attitude, demanding denuclearization, was “regrettable.”

"North Korea's commitment to giving up its weapons" is presented as a matter of fact in the U.S. media. However, North Korea never made such a commitment. The declarations it agreed to set out denuclearization as an aspiration goal that will be worked on only after the normalization of economic and military relations and after a peace treaty has been agreed on or signed. The record on that is clear.

In April President Moon Jae-in of South Korea and Chairman Kim Jong-un of North Korea met in Panmunjom and signed a common Declaration for Peace, Prosperity and Unification of the Korean Peninsula . The declaration had three numbered main points, each with a list of subitems. The first main point covers inner-Korean relations including economic relations, the second point is about the lowering of military tension, the third is about a peace agreement. The second subitem of the third main point sets out a step by step process of disarmament:

South and North Korea agreed to carry out disarmament in a phased manner, as military tension is alleviated and substantial progress is made in military confidence-building.

The third subitem is about a peace treaty that includes the U.S. and China. It is only the fourth subitem of the third mainpoint and the last of the whole declaration that mentions a goal of denuclearization within a bigger context:

South and North Korea confirmed the common goal of realizing, through complete denuclearization, a nuclear-free Korean Peninsula. South and North Korea shared the view that the measures being initiated by North Korea are very meaningful and crucial for the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and agreed to carry out their respective roles and responsibilities in this regard. South and North Korea agreed to actively seek the support and cooperation of the international community for the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

Denuclearization of the north AND south is the last point of a long agenda that will be fulfilled in a "phased manner" or step by step. The whole paper describes a chronologic order in which the set of tasks will be worked on.

In June Kim Jong-un met U.S. President Trump in Singapore. A "freeze for freeze" - the stop of nuclear and missile testing in exchange for a stop of military maneuvers - was agreed upon. A Joint Statement was signed with a list of future tasks in similar chronological order as in the Panmunjeom Declaration (numbering added):

President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive, in-depth and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to [1] the establishment of new US-DPRK relations and [2] the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed [3a] to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un [3b] reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

The program detailed in that paragraph is repeated in an itemized and numbered list:

President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:
  1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.
  2. The United States and DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

  3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula

Denuclearization of the north AND south is again described as an aspirational goal and as the last item of the longer list.

The Panmunjeom Declaration and the Singapore Statement are the only public commitments North Korea agreed to. Both describe numbered steps that are to be taken by both parties one after the other. Denuclearization is the last step.

Now Pompeo came to Pyongyang and asked for details about North Korea's nuclear program and how it plans to abandon it. As far as we know he did not talk about point 1, the "establishment of new US-DPRK relations" which would include the opening of embassies and economic engagement. He did not talk about point 2, "a lasting and stable peace regime" i.e. a peace treaty. He did not talk about 3a, the "security guarantees to the DPRK". The only item he talked about was 3b, the last item on the list.

The Trump administration put the cart before the horse and now wonders why that did not work.

After Pompeo left Pyongyang North Korea published a statement that condemns Pompeo for getting the sequence wrong:

[T]he U.S. side came up only with its unilateral and gangster-like demand for denuclearization just calling for CVID, declaration and verification, all of which run counter to the spirit of the Singapore summit meeting and talks.

The U.S. side never mentioned the issue of establishing a peace regime on the Korean peninsula which is essential for defusing tension and preventing a war. It took the position that it would even backtrack on the issue it had agreed on to end the status of war under certain conditions and excuses.

As for the issue of announcing the declaration of the end of war at an early date, it is the first process of defusing tension and establishing a lasting peace regime on the Korean peninsula, and at the same time, it constitutes a first factor in creating trust between the DPRK and the U.S. This issue was also stipulated in Panmunjom Declaration as a historical task to terminate the war status on the Korean peninsula which continues for nearly 70 years. President Trump, too, was more enthusiastic about this issue at the DPRK-U.S. summit talks.

First peace, then denuclearization.

The statement goes on to laud Trump while condemning his minions:

Valuable agreement was reached in such a short time at the Singapore summit talks first ever in the history of the DPRK-U.S. relations. This is attributable to the fact that President Trump himself said he would move towards resolving the DPRK-U.S. relations and the issue of denuclearization of the Korean peninsula in a new way.

If both sides at the working level reneged on the new way agreed at the summit and returned to the old way, the epoch-making Singapore summit would be meaningless ...
We still cherish our good faith in President Trump.

The U.S. should make a serious consideration of whether the toleration of the headwind against the wills of the two top leaders would meet the aspirations and expectations of the world people as well as the interests of its country.

This is a quite interesting play. North Korea tells Trump that his staff is sabotaging the "valuable agreement" he made.

There is little doubt that this is the case. As chinahand aka Peter Lee explains (recommended video), "sabotaging Korean peace is as American as apple pie."

Trump's National Security Advisor John Bolton has a long history of destroying talks with North Korea. It was likely John Bolton who organized the recent intelligence leaks about North Korea's continuing work on its missile programs. In March, before joining the Trump administration, Bolton went on Foxnews and talked about the already agreed upon Trump-Kim summit. He opined (@4:10m) that the purpose of the meeting was, in his view, to ..

".. foreshorten the amount of time that we’re going to waste in negotiations that will never produce the result we want, which is Kim giving up his nuclear program.”

If such hawk engagement was the purpose of the Trump-Kim meeting then the end point is nearly reached. Trump could now twitter the lie that Kim "betrayed" him and "failed to fulfill his commitment", the one he never made. The U.S. establishment, the Korea specialists and the mainstream media all argued against these talks. They want full denuclearization of North Korea without giving it much - if anything - in return. They would applaud Trump if he stops the talks and again ramps up tensions.

But Trump might really want to get that Nobel Peace Prize. He will not get one for nuking Pyongyang. He will (first) have to make peace. He will have to order Pompeo to go back to Pyongyang and to talk about the opening embassies and the peace process before raising the issue of 'denuclearization'. He will have to tell Bolton to stop his games.

Trump may also have a another aim in mind. China is the main competitor of the United States, in Asia as well as globally. North Korea is China's T/trump card, a proxy state that can be used to dial up tensions and to keep the U.S. busy whenever it wants. If Trump really wants to go after China, neutralizing North Korea (and Russia?) first is a desirable step.

It is not discernible what Trump really wants. It might well be that he has not made up his mind, or that he changes his position as the days go by.

Posted by b on July 8, 2018 at 18:02 UTC | Permalink


thanks b... it seems the usa, its msm definitely, and much of it's leadership - are beholden to the military industrial complex... trump changes with the wind... as you note - it is hard to know which way he is going to go here...

Posted by: james | Jul 8 2018 18:19 utc | 1

How can anyone find it sensible that North Korea could possibly find it reasonable to give up any weapons after what happened to Libya? How???

Even Trump must know that that is nowhere near the table, or even the kitchen.

Posted by: blues | Jul 8 2018 18:21 utc | 2

The whole scenario is a valuable reminder to Russia as to how much any agreement coming out of Helsinki will be worth.

What was that Russian phrase? 'agreement-incapable"?

Posted by: les7 | Jul 8 2018 18:33 utc | 3

Without the formal mutual defense pact between the Norks,Russia and China
as a guarantee,this is going nowhere.
This is more typical of Trumps negotiating style(dealt with him personally back in the 90's).
Give him an inch,he will try to take a mile, and then shortchanges you on the agreed payment.
He and Uncle Scam are kindred spirits although the cultists of personalty don't want
to hear it.
In any case a peace treaty requires Senate approval.Fat chance.

Posted by: Winston | Jul 8 2018 18:34 utc | 4

Oy vey! Given Pompeo's public positions it sounded very iffy that he could engage the Koreans in real diplomacy. Not surprising then that he goes there and issues direct demands that Korea surrender before any of their legitimate issues are met. I fear that Trump has made the same error trying to use Bolt

Sending Bolton to Moscow to prepare the Helsinki talks between Putin and Trump may well lead to the same result. I do think that when it comes to international relations with Korea, China and Russia Trump has some reasonable instincts. But why is he sending this pack of war mongers to talk peace with them? They are all infighters inside the deep state and even if they can't accomplish anything they do know how to push buttons to sabotage peace.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 8 2018 18:43 utc | 5

It it difficult to see these so called talks with NK being advantage the to the US when looking at China or Russia. It could be a red Herring but also another option. I think the US is taking the petro dollar down in a controlled demolition and are attempting to move to what they call energy dominance. Without the Petro dollar, US will not need to maintain its garrison forts throughout the petro dollar empire and may not be able to afford to maintain the garrisons in the change over period from petro dollar to energy dominance.
The petro dollar required garrisoned forts and standing armies to ensure is use whereas energy dominance requires no enforcers.
Just small covert ops here and there to sabotage other oil/energy operations.
If that where the case then US may well be looking for a peace treaty on their terms before pulling the expensive to maintain garrisons out of Korea/Japan.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 8 2018 19:27 utc | 6

It is indeed discernible what Trump really wants. Delay the whole thing till after the midterm elections. Then go ahead, step up the threats, at some point utter an ultimatum, then attack. It's futile to hope he cares about a Nobel, he just wants to be seen as the most powerful person alive. And he is xenophobic enough not to mind some millions victims in Asia. He is the one who did put in place people like Pompeo and Bolton and will if necessary replace even Mattis with some still more mad dog.

Posted by: Pnyx | Jul 8 2018 19:32 utc | 7

Sheldon 'Moneybags' Adelson wants peace in Korea so he can open more casinos.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 8 2018 20:00 utc | 8

Another non-agreement dressed up like a peace deal. Similar to the JCPOA with Iran.

Trump had a plan: to lure China to support his get-tough policy toward North Korea via the prospect of improved trade relations. This 'lure' was in addition to USA's long-held view that a nuclear NK was as much or more of a threat to China than the US.

China wouldn't play ball so Trump was forced to to through the motions of an agreement. IMO China's intransigence shocked the Trump team. China's transporting Kim in a Chinese jet was virtually slap in the face that reinforced China's independent path.

The NK negotiations have revealed that China is now going full-bore for global leadership. USA had thought they had collared the Dragon with trade. The misjudged how quickly the Dragon would grow to a point where it could break that collar.

I think Trump Russia moves are a response to the challenges posed by China. Trump said Russia should rejoin the G-8 just before the summit with Kim and a meeting with Putin was quickly scheduled.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 8 2018 20:06 utc | 9

Trump will never ever get a nobel prize. Worldwide this figure is too loathed for it. Everybody would finally see the nobel prize committee for what it is and spit on it.

'Neutralizing North Korea' (nuclear war)... let's hope it will never get to that although one can't really be sure with all the escalating USA protectionism that will crash the world economy and how the USA would work again to externalize its domestic socio-economic problems.

Posted by: xor | Jul 8 2018 20:32 utc | 10

xor #11

We should all recall that the first US president to win the Nobel peace prize was Teddy Roosevelt for his efforts to end the war between Russia and Japan in 1904. What was not noted at that time is that he cut a deal with Japan that the US would not object to Japan colonizing Korea in exchange for Japan not objecting to US colonization of the Philippians. Surely, the Korean people both north and south, know that history. They also know that the first South Korean governments after WWII were led by Japanese collaborators with the full backing of the US military.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 8 2018 20:52 utc | 11

I suspect that Trump knows exactly what he's doing sending Pompeo to look foolish. And the Koreans have shown, to my mind at least, that they understand US domestic politics, and Trump's unique position - or it might better be called a predicament - impeccably well. It was indeed an elegant rant on their part to protest furiously and yet blame only the underlings, splitting them from Trump while preserving him as one whose recent actions they "cherish".

Trump has a habit of bringing onto his team people that he is somewhat obliged to pay lip service to, figures who have domestic clout with neocons and Zionists. But we don't see him use them in any way other than letting them run with their crazy attitudes, into failure. He lets them throw themselves at the refrigerator to see if any of them stick, and most of them slide to the floor. This is my impression, but I can't say I've made a deep study of any of this.

I disagree with b's concluding remarks that China sees NK as a trump card of sorts, useful to stir up the US. I think China has much greater strategic need to settle Korea as well and as soon as can be done. North Korea's position is obvious to China and she sees exactly how NK must position itself for safety. The best result for every nation in the region at any time is to have the US compliant, or at least snoozing, while north and south work towards lowering tensions, within the context of their neighbors and the multi-polar world at large.

I agree that what Trump wants is hard to discern, on anything and at any time. I'm still digesting Thierry Meyssan on this puzzle, however. Meyssan's take can be regarded as any other theory, and watched to see what unfolds and fits the theory. I find much that fits. The two articles were linked here by at least 2 commenters - apologies that I can't recall who, but many thanks to them, without whom I would probably have missed this very important, and certainly contrary, thesis: What Donald Trump is preparing

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 8 2018 20:59 utc | 12

Posted by: Winston | Jul 8, 2018 2:34:35 PM | 4

Agree, totally. I never dealt with Trump, but for me it is clear that nobody is doing anything without his consent.

This stupid renewed faith everybody, who had previously already give up on him, shows everytime he decides to play the good-cop again to spread confussion in international relations, is just part of the strategy of the current US administration s oas to shock its opponents.

That the Russians play the role of trusting him too, one time after another, after he having betrayed all the agreements he has been able to so far, could only be because there are other interests at play for the Russians...

Posted by: Sasha | Jul 8 2018 21:34 utc | 13

The US does look to be exiting its empire. I have been trying to see where it is heading.
I find this Engdahl article from early 2017 interesting.

I had been looking into Kissinger as the stratigist which is what Engdahl was looking at in the article. The article also refreshes the memory of the makeup of the first Trump team at the white house. It consisted of bankers, oilmen, military, Chauffeur (Trump) and navigator (Kissinger).
Ok - so a bus load of shady looking types are leaving point A to go to point B. The Chauffeur has told us when applying for the job point B is a place call Energy Dominance.
I would guess the place they are leaving, point A, is the petrodollar hegemonic empire.
Energy Dominance... energy monopoly? Cartel?
Cartel.. Us will never leave the area around Israel although they may shut down their standing imperialistic garrisons of Asia and Europe.
So Arab oil, Canada oil, Venezuelan and fast tracked American oil as a cartel?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 8 2018 21:56 utc | 14

The US does look to be exiting its empire. I have been trying to see where it is heading.
I find an Engdahl article from early 2017 interesting.
(tried posting with the Engdahl link twice but comment did not appear)

I had been looking into Kissinger as the strategist which is what Engdahl was looking at in the article. The article also refreshes the memory of the makeup of the first Trump team at the white house. It consisted of bankers, oilmen, military, Chauffeur (Trump) and navigator (Kissinger).
A bus load of shady looking types are leaving point A to go to point B. Chauffeur Trump has told us when applying for the job that point B is a place call Energy Dominance.
I would guess the place they are leaving, point A, is the petrodollar hegemonic empire.
Energy Dominance... energy monopoly or Cartel?
Cartel seems easier and faster. Us will never leave the area around Israel although they may shut down their standing imperialistic garrisons of Asia and Europe.
Perhaps Arab oil, Canada oil, Venezuelan oil and fast tracked American oil as a cartel?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 8 2018 22:10 utc | 15

@13 grieved.. nice to see you back..

Posted by: james | Jul 8 2018 23:20 utc | 16

What would speed things along is a demand from South Korea that the yankee forces exit their country. This would make the resolution of the problem much easier. I suspect that the threat of such an occurrence was a key factor in the Singapore meeting even happening.

Posted by: exiled off mainstreet | Jul 9 2018 1:07 utc | 17

Of course Pompeo went all gangster on Kim. How did that gangster get into this Administration anyway?

As Pompeo was on his way to pull a “gangman style” on Kim, our Reality Show President stood before the MSM cameras and recited interesting lines. To wit: the US will not pull troops out of South Korea and, if he doesn’t like the way this process is going, he’ll go straight back to pre-summit policies.

Sure, Bolton is a warmongering scumbag who’s undermined steps towards peace everywhere he’s stuck his Yosemite Sam mustache. How again was it he got into an official US government position to destroy these tentative steps towards peace?

It still looks to me like the people of South Korea have been demanding peace, and as former General, Supreme Commander of Allied Forces and President, Dwight Eisenhower said, “I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.”

But that “Military/Industrial Complex” Ike mentioned on his way out the door of his 8-year residence in the White House isn’t fond of peace.

I applaud the Kim people for once again appealing to our Narcissist in Chief even as they shred his Secretary of State. I doubt Drumpf's superiors will give him free rein to earn that Noble Prize (earn?), but it was a smart and optimistic step.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 9 2018 2:19 utc | 18

@16 james - thank you. Always good to be here.

@15 Peter AU

I had trouble linking to Engdahl also. A few threads back, we were off topic but deep into Peak Oil and I tried to post about Engdahl's subscription to the abiotic model of the creation of oil.

I looked for the article you're referring to, and found 3 that may be of use. Two are at williamengdhal dot com - scrolling down to January 2017 one finds "Rex Tillerson and the Myths, Lies and Oil Wars to Come" and "Is Trump the Back Door Man for Henry A. Kissinger & Co?". Is this in the area you were reading?

I was searching for his name combined with "energy dominance" and found what looks like a great piece at SOTT:

I haven't read any of this yet, and I'm seriously off topic (probably should move to the Open Thread).

So, just to bring it back to Korea: it must torment the rotten hearts of the predator capitalists unbearably to live in an age when modern methods reveal such wealth lying beneath the ground - not just with fuels but with resources like North Korea's rare earth treasure trove - and to know that their imperial tool is losing its mojo for plunder.

I think much of what the rulers of the US are doing right now could fit inside a general theme of utter lust for the increasingly unreachable wealth of the future, and this is in part why it wants to become a dominant energy producer. It's like the middle-aged person putting on the garb of the day and body adornments to fit in with the young moderns - it can work for some people who still have the juice, but not for dying empires.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2018 2:25 utc | 19

Peter AU - 15:

Cartel seems easier and faster. Us will never leave the area around Israel although they may shut down their standing imperialistic garrisons of Asia and Europe.
Perhaps Arab oil, Canada oil, Venezuelan oil and fast tracked American oil as a cartel?

Good and short summary of what may be energy dominance versus imperial dominance.
To American full continent resources one must add Brazil pre-salted field. Note that LTO from fracking, Tarsands (Alberta), Ultra Heavy OIl (Venezuela-Orenoque) are all expensive and hard to get: basically non-conventional.
So, OPEC + 1 (Russia) can be considered as the Cartel of "conventional oil" branching to Latin America and Africa.

US game in MO is obviuosly Israêl friendly, or is Jerusalem-show just the candy bar ?
because at the end of the day Energy Dominance doctrine is very similar to leading by behind.

Posted by: Charles Michael | Jul 9 2018 2:42 utc | 20

@ Grieved with the Thierry Meyssan link

I am going to quote the last bit in the article you linked to for my response
Donald Trump is preparing a reorganisation of international relations. This change will operate through a complete and sudden upheaval directed against the interests of the transnational ruling class.

While there may be factions within the transnational ruling class, to say that what Trump is doing is against their interests is obfuscation, IMO. As I have said about Trump before, he is an Apprentice plutocrat fronting some faction of our overlords with an agenda that includes forcing America to adjust their lifestyle while still maintaining private finance globally in control of world economies.....controlled demolition of social safety net

The point I want to repeat is that NONE of these folks have the interests of the 99% on their event horizon. While I support that we are going through this process now rather than the slow boil of the past, I still don't see the knight in shiny armor on the hill providing 99% leadership quite yet.

To the posting.
NK would not submit to the Western banking system so they have been isolated and threatened for decades because projecting the Western way through SK just wasn't enough and then there is the resources.....
The US is playing the only hand it has, threats of military trashing of some sort or another to get its way because it has worked in the past. And I expect they intend to continue this path until failure...which may be on the horizon.

We are gong to find out what sort of decisions the real elite make when confronted with the strategy of war limited by that pesky extinction issue. How else to maintain the sick social system we have except by force? I think we are seeing the limits and potential breakdown of such.

Let the great circus continue to expose the fetid of our species.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 9 2018 3:14 utc | 21

@22 psychositorian

"We are going to find out what sort of decisions the real elite make when confronted with the strategy of war limited by that pesky extinction issue. How else to maintain the sick social system we have except by force? I think we are seeing the limits and potential breakdown of such."

Totally excellent prognosis.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2018 3:22 utc | 22

Grieved | Jul 8, 2018 11:22:18 PM | 23

Nuts, I responded and it disappeared, poof...

Posted by: V | Jul 9 2018 3:50 utc | 23

Trump's dishonest pattern in business and in politics, is to lead people along, let them believe what they want to believe-- indeed even to encourage people to have unrealistic expectations.

Posted by: Todd Boyle | Jul 9 2018 6:12 utc | 24

Oy vey!
Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 8, 2018 2:43:48 PM | 5

Bullseye! Nice shootin' pardner...!

This is exactly the same sort of time-wasting crap the Palestinians have had to endure from the "Israelis" for the past 70+ years...
... make the ultimate goal (total surrender of all Palestinian rights, territorial integrity and sovereignty) a precondition for Piece Talks.

What makes this story particularly fascinating is that President Trump (knowingly) sent the Swamp's Pompeo to NK to jointly, with the North Koreans, BEGIN compiling a list of demands, grievances and talking points which would form the basis of formal negotiations.
It was clearly, unambiguously and ONLY a preliminary pre-meeting meeting convened to sort out an agenda.

So what does Pompeo do? He asks his "Israeli" handlers how he should conduct himself during the meeting. And the Head Handler told him "Just tell 'em what we tell the Palestinians - surrender whatever makes you strong or there won't be any talks!"

Pompeo recklessly exceeded his authority by several orders of magnitude. He was NOT authorised to negotiate or dispute ANYTHING the North Koreans said.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 9 2018 7:53 utc | 25

I have an unsolicited suggestion for re-naming this thread...

Pyongyang Talks - Pompeo Pomps.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 9 2018 8:12 utc | 26

But Trump might really want to get that Nobel Peace Prize. He will not get one for nuking Pyongyang

hey, never underestimate the bounds of political farce!

i mean, Kissinger got his after four years of carpet bombing Cambodia!

and Obama got his before destroying the Ukraine, Libya, and Syria,

which leaves no doubt that the little gold disc has been fully weaponized!

Posted by: john | Jul 9 2018 10:23 utc | 27

Grieved, yes both those, but "The backdoor Man" especially. In that one Engdahl spells out the make up of the original group, but he takes note of Kissinger and recognizes that he is the strategist for the group.
I mean't to rply to your post on peak oil but got tied up in other research. I watched what I recall as a soviet, perhaps Russian video on this subject and how very deep fractures in the earths crust were used in the search for oil in the Soviet Union. Will post it if I can dig it up again. Enough of OT.

In looking at where the US is heading is I think relevant to this thread as a meeting between a US president and a North Korean leader is unprecedented and I believe a sign of the fundamental change we are no embarked on. This is a fundamental change of the post WWII order.
It is also worth looking up this video where Mercouris talks about the great powers Russia, China, US and how they will interact with each other. It is based on the US military posture document the US put out in it named Russia and China as peer or near peer threats. He looks at these type documents and what they say as a lawyer. He said something along the lines that this was in effect the US ending its uni power status and recognizing the the world now consists of three great powers, and then he spoke about how diplomacy is conducted between great powers. Well worth watching. One of the most recent posts at the Duran and can be found at this youtube link.

Another thing that is worth looking up is videos of Kissinger interviews from early 2017 when he was meeting with Trump. I also found some other recent videos in which he is asked what he thinks of the state of the world today and the USA's place in it.
It is in one of these other interviews that he says all post WWII institutions will need to be looked to see if they are still relevant in the realities of todays world. He says some may just need to be changed both other institutions will go as they are no longer relevant. The Korean war I would think is one of these institutions, and it has become an institution, is one than is most likely no longer needed. This is why I feel all this is relevant to what is going on between US and NK. To not discus this would mean that we are only looking at the surface when we have to look far below the surface.

The US is far from turning over a new leaf, but gone are the uni-power years of senseless killing, and the of the Obama/Kerry years that had no strategy to speak of, only poorly thought out tactics as they ran around trying to prop up the crumbling petro dollar. Now it will be ruthless great power moves.

If you can listen to Kissinger speak, it would be well worth your while and to listen very carefully, to get some idea on the fundamental change that is now occurring as he will have been the creator of the strategy the current US admin is embarked on. In the interviews, when he is asked about what he thinks the president should do he says very little, but when asked what he thinks Trump's plans are he starts to talk. he talks about fundamental changes but also in ever interview on restoring America's 'importance' in the world. One of the interviews is in the white house seated beside Trump and in that one he says very little, but Trump sitting beside Kissinger, speaks of restoring US importance in the world, restoring US importance to where it was 25 years ago (91?).
Kissinger was the architect/strategist that created the petro dollar and collapsed the Soviet Union so even at his age he cannot be taken lightly.

In the last open thread I put up the sequence of choreographed events that created the petro dollar. Did you happen to see that?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 12:10 utc | 28

21 psycho. my bet is that the DC is out to create a bit of trouble everywhere North Korea for China, Ukraine for Russia Syria for middle east Africa for, well, Africa and south America seems to take care of itself. the UK for the EU.
So effectively the wealth of world flows to the US as a safer haven than anywhere else, the least dirty shirt in the room.

Posted by: heath | Jul 9 2018 12:28 utc | 29

Re: #10
The world figured out the fix was in on the Nobel when they gave it to the community organizer turned mad bomber.

Posted by: morongobill | Jul 9 2018 13:16 utc | 30

yes precisely that.
Down here in southamerica, I figured this out from the very beginning. It was a gossip secret, o' course.
There are now nukes in both north and SOUTH korea, and lots more in the south, everyone knows what for... And the one who knows more on this is exactly Xi fm Beijing. Well everyone and his dog knows that Xi and chinese leaders have met Jong Un twice before the talks, in a good neighbors atmosphere!!!
One needs not to be a n int´l relations expert to see that the common interests of Pong Yand a Seoul in the MEDIUM AND LONG run converge, not to say they are pretty much the same.
But it ´s too much to demand the west prostitutes and the recent three letter agency US diplomacy to grab those simple root realities.

Posted by: augusto | Jul 9 2018 13:51 utc | 31

As Bolton wants to keep his position both with the neocons and with Trump,it seems that he has found in Pompeo the best messenger to torpedoe the emerging dialog witk NK. Is Pompeo an accomplice or just manipulated?
Trump must have realized that none of these are an asset until now, quite the contrary. They are disliked by the North Koreans as they work on an arrogant style with a war agenda. Will Trump fire any of them if the next Pompeo visit in NK gives similar results? Will he have to invite the 'rocket' man in the USA to correct the shot?

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 9 2018 14:11 utc | 32

Yesterday i viewed a clip of Mike Pompaeo on a tarmac. He didn't look arrogant.

The tenor of his statements I thought were strange, as if they were whimsical.

He struck me as being self-conscious and feeling silly answering questions as

if he were trying to remember where he was (airport tarmacs seem all the same).

He looked like some frat boy called out of a party because he has to move his car.

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 9 2018 15:13 utc | 33

I want to highlight these two excellent points B makes:

"North Korea's commitment to giving up its weapons" is presented as a matter of fact in the U.S. media. However, North Korea never made such a commitment. The declarations it agreed to set out denuclearization as an aspiration[al] goal that will be worked on only after the normalization of economic and military relations and after a peace treaty has been agreed on or signed. The record on that is clear."


"Now Pompeo came to Pyongyang and asked for details about North Korea's nuclear program and how it plans to abandon it. As far as we know he did not talk about point 1, the "establishment of new US-DPRK relations" which would include the opening of embassies and economic engagement. He did not talk about point 2, "a lasting and stable peace regime" i.e. a peace treaty. He did not talk about 3a, the "security guarantees to the DPRK". The only item he talked about was 3b, the last item on the list.The Trump administration put the cart before the horse and now wonders why that did not work."

Meanwhile, today Sen. Graham works the old spin the North Koreans are up to their old tricks and never to be trusted etc. etc. so that within a few weeks destruction of the deal is heavily engaged and proceeding. Trump is so far out of synch with establishment programming no amount of half-baked notions re international reorganizing is viable. It is good to see b and other commenters dismantling US mainstream propaganda.

Add this--

July 3 analysis: re mainstream efforts to knock down North Korea's continuing nuclear weapons program based on what they never agreed to stop doing as yet, at this stage in the early attempt to negotiate:

the stories were a clear attempt by anonymous officials in Washington to derail a negotiating process they fundamentally disagree with.

Posted by: Sid2 | Jul 9 2018 15:18 utc | 34

Trump hints at Chinese interference, tweeting:

China . . . may be exerting negative pressure on a deal because of our posture on Chinese Trade

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 9 2018 15:28 utc | 35

Peter AU. I’m happy to see you peering deeper into Kissinger’s role as upper-level manager for the 0.01% global financial psychopaths. I’ve tried to steer you towards some of his writings, as well as those of Zbigenew Brzezenski.

These planners are much more frank in their books since they know that most commoners will never read them and the MSM will gloss over or ignore them. They are more guarded in TV interviews and articles for mass readership.

Ziggy, you may recall, followed Kissinger as upper-level manager during the Carter Administration. Not coincidentally, both had been proteges of one David Rockefeller at first the Council on Foreign Relations and then at the long-denied, but now acknowledged, Trilateral Commission.

In Ziggy’s last public article before his untimely death (untimely because I wish he’d died decades earlier), he wrote much of what you note Kissinger saying recently. Now, he writes disingenuously (as for instance sheepishly describing Islamic Terrorism as home-grown and not the result of CIA/MI6/Mossad backing, of which he proudly claimed to have been a principle author back in 1979 ).

When I first read it back in 2016, I sensed his great bitterness that the AZ Empire had not finished off Russia and China as he’d called for in his 1997 “The Grand Chessboard.” Here was a man both berating the “failures of Empire,” and laying out a version for public consumption of his RealPolitik approach to ensure his superiors’ interests remain dominant.

Of course, though these two monsters stood in the limelight at different times, they were always busy at work behind the scenes. Early in Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign, he introduced Ziggy as his mentor who had taught him basically all he knew about foreign policy. And in a 2016 Democratic debate, HRC bragged about her decades-long close friendship with Henry, whom she promised to rely on for advice if (s)elected.

So, it should come as no surprise that The Donald is also being pulled by his nose ring by the surviving member of that Rockefeller/Kissinger/Brzezenski triumvirate that caused so much devastation around the world while further enriching the 0.01% whom they served.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 9 2018 20:00 utc | 36

Thanks Daniel. I will check into Brzezenski's relationship with Trump if any. A quick check into the Kissinger/Brzezenski relationship and they seem to have been rivals.
One report had it that Kissinger had been named as Trump's foreign policy adviser but no other reports to confirm that say that.
What I do find interesting about Kissinger is that he is very good in understanding various cultures and national identities and how they think and fit in with one another. He uses this to spot pressure points and Achilles heels. The only other person I have heard talk about cultures and nations in this way is Putin. Most Americans with their exceptionalism have zero understanding of this. It is how Kissinger was able to so easily bring down the Soviet Union.
Kissinger's one blind spot is Israel. He never talks about the Saudi backed Sunni jihadism, but instead says Iran is responsible for all jihadism, which is exactly what Trump is saying and I think they actually believe this. A willful blindness.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 20:43 utc | 37

Peter AU @37:
“A quick check into the Kissinger/Brzezenski relationship and they seem to have been rivals.”

Peter, you still want to believe in the two-party adversarial system in the US. I suggest you try to step back a bit and get a broader perspective. Sure, they competed for favor, but Kissinger and Brzezenski both served the same masters. As we’ve seen (assuming we’ve both read/listened to one another’s links) both Democrats and Republicans were “advised” by both Kissinger and Brzezenski.

And the supra-national banksters loved them both.

There is a reason why, as Putin said during the 2016 US election, it doesn’t matter who wins, since US policy remains consistent. Some tactics may change as “facts on the ground” shift (as in this “multi-polar” order which both Henry and Ziggy discussed). But the goals of the 0.01% haven’t changed. And I’d say, they haven’t changed in centuries… possibly millennia.

And manipulating different groups as Brzezenski and Kissinger (and Putin) did so well requires a pretty deep understanding of the cultural and universal traits of the target population. This has been true since the dawn of civilization (if not earlier).

But, yes, actually none of them publicly discuss on a deep level Israel, and I"d say more significantly, the global financial powers. Not a coincidence.

So, please keep digging. I think you’re getting close to “pay dirt,” and will strike the Au soon. ;-)

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 9 2018 21:18 utc | 38

Peter, check out this 1 minute segment of Brzezinski giving a pep talk to the Mujahideen in Pakistan just before they followed his plan to invade Afghanistan in 1979:

He played them like a fiddle.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 9 2018 21:23 utc | 39

Will check it out some more. Just a thought at the moment of what I have read to be the differences between the two, is that Kissinger had the leading role in detente, the Sino/Soviet split - Sino/US anti soviet pact, And the creation of the petro dollar.

The Afghan war is the first act of breaking detente so with this thought, Brzezenski takes the leading role once the petro dollar is created? I guess I'll find out as I look into it further.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 21:40 utc | 40

I'd suggest that detente = tactic.
Hegemony = strategy.
Dominance = goal.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 9 2018 22:18 utc | 41

No1 and the remnants of No2 are the means to get to No3 ?

I have put up a comment on some thoughts as to the powers that be (money) behind Trump may be over at the open thread.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 9 2018 22:53 utc | 42

Yeah. Tactics are specific actions within the framework of a strategic plan that itself is intended to result in a long-term goal.

Sports, Business, Politics; it's all the same. That's why the same metaphors are used interchangeably in each area.

Tactics are changed frequently in response to reactions. Strategies are less frequently changed, but if reactions are powerful enough (eg. "multi-polar" economics), then they will be ditched also.

thesis + antithesis --> synthesis

Problem --> Reaction = Solution

But the goal (the "Final Solution" if I may be so bold) is almost always the same.

I've posted many links re; the powers behind Trump, and have many others as well. If you're in an investigative/reading mood, let me know and perhaps we can meet on an Open Thread and share.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 0:48 utc | 43

"If you're in an investigative/reading mood, let me know and perhaps we can meet on an Open Thread and share."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 10 2018 0:52 utc | 44

Peter AU. Interesting speculation. Before we delve into “what it all means,” I thought we were going to exchange actual facts so we have a common grounding. Then we can explore who Donald J. Trump really serves and how.

Jake videos have been posted to MoA before. I don’t recall by whom, but this one actually sums up the background for understanding to whom The Donald is beholden.

The Rothschild Trump/Syria Connection

At about 12:00 he starts to dig into the Trump/Globalist Bankster connections.

And Trump is deeply beholden to these supra-national banksters. As in at least $1.8 Billion:

And Trump has been specifically beholden to the Rothschilds since the 1980s!

Meet Wilbur Ross, who once bailed out Trump in Atlantic City and is now his pick for Commerce secretary

James Corbett did a great job of how that “Drain The Swamp” thing was panning out within weeks of the inauguration .

Of course, Trump's Cabinet picks are full of Goldman Sachs people.

Even the current president of Goldman Sachs, Gary D. Cohn, was named director of the National Economic Council

Besides the supra-national banksters, Trump’s Administration is brimming over with Military/Industrial Complex insiders.

Treasury Secretary, Steven Mnuchin, spent 17 years at Goldman. Trump’s now “Your Fired” White House adviser, Steve Bannon, spent his early career at the bank. So did “Your Fired” Anthony Scaramucci - one of Trump’s top transition advisers and perhaps shortest ever White House Spokesman.

I have a great deal more - in both written and video formats - but let’s see if you get through these first. And maybe let me know which you prefer.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 10 2018 3:58 utc | 45


Pompeo probably ran out of shrink-wrapped pallets of $100s, and those 'beautiful beaches' that Trump babbled over turned out to be land-mined.

The herky-jerky progress (sic) you see with Trump and his NeoMafiya has much more to do with the gynormous -$800B hole-in-the-bucket Deficit that his No Taxes for the Rich has created. He needed a PR victory for the Diptards,so he could sign that $1.5T Omnibus Debt Bill. It worked. Right-wing media 'foregave' him.

Then he framed his illegal 25% Fed VAT sales tax as 'tariffs', in a desparate bid to pickpocket their way out of that revenue-shortfall death spiral. This will just contract the retail economy even more. You can't squeeze blood from turnips and hayseeds.

The $4.5T 2019 Deep Purple Mil.Gov UniParty budget is already being crafted. Trump will sign an even bigger Omnibus Debt Bill in September, and Fed Bank ratchet its interest-only debt (sic) repayment plan, again, to $400B. This time, having no 'war' victory to peddle, Trump will peddle immigration and gun running. That always works.

First his PR team creates the 24/7 stress-positioning agitprop, the existential crisis of 'run amok barbarians at the gates', while 'Maxine Waters wants your guns', to woo-woo the Diptards, then he'll issue some fake victory fatwahs, MAGA MAGA, and sign another $2T unfunded Omnibus debt promise in September, then skeedaddle back to the 'Winter White House' to await the midterm vote outcome.
From this point it's all Red v Blue caravaning for the emotional buy-in, then have MediCare completely insolvent by 2020, to pay those Trump deficits.

10,000,000s of USAryan refugees, wow, it's gonna be quite a spectacle, limping ragged citizens pushing all their worldly bedding around in metal shopping carts, hovering by bus and train stations with cardboard alms signs, then queing up at Salvation Army for mid-day potato gruel.


Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 10 2018 18:29 utc | 46

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