Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 17, 2018

Helsinki Talks - How Trump Tries To Rebalance The Global Triangle

The reactions of the U.S. polite to yesterday's press conference of Pgresident Trump and President Putin are highly amusing. The media are losing their mind. Apparently it was Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin and 9/11 all in one day. War will commence tomorrow. But against whom?

Behind the panic lie competing views of Grand Strategy.

Rereading the transcript of the 45 minutes long press conference (vid) I find it rather boring. Trump did not say anything that he had not said before. There was little mention of what the two presidents had really talked about and what they agreed upon. Later on Putin said that the meeting was more substantive than he expected. As the two spoke alone there will be few if any leaks. To understand what happened we will have to wait and see how the situations in the various conflict areas, in Syria, Ukraine and elsewhere, will now develop.

The 'liberal' side of the U.S. did its best to prevent the summit. The recent Mueller indictment was timed to sabotage the talks. Before the meeting in Helsinki the New York Times retweeted its three weeks old homophobic comic flick that shows Trump and Putin as lovers. It is truly a disgrace for the Grey Lady to publish such trash, but it set the tone others would follow. After the press conference the usual anti-Trump operatives went ballistic:

John O. Brennan @JohnBrennan - 15:52 UTC - 16 Jul 2018

Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki rises to & exceeds the threshold of “high crimes & misdemeanors.” It was nothing short of treasonous. Not only were Trump’s comments imbecilic, he is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???

Senator John McCain released a scathing statement:

... “No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad. ...

These imbeciles do not understand the realism behind Trump's grand policy. Trump knows the heartland theory of Halford John Mackinder.  He understands that Russia is the core of the Eurasian landmass. That landmass, when politically united, can rule the world. A naval power, the U.S. now as the UK before it, can never defeat it. Trump's opponents do not get what Zbigniew Brzezinski, the National Security Advisor of President Carter, said in his book The Grand Chessboard (pdf) about a Chinese-Russian alliance. They do not understand why Henry Kissinger advised Trump to let go of Crimea.

Trump himself professed his view (vid) of the big picture and of relations with Russia in a 2015 press conference:

"...  Putin has no respect for President Obama. Big Problem, big problem. And you know Russia has been driven - you know I always heard, for years I have heard - one of the worst things that can happen to our country, is when Russia ever gets driven to China. We have driven them together - with the big oil deals that are being made. We have driven them together. That's a horrible thing for this country. We have made them friends because of incompetent leadership. I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin- okay? And I mean where we have the strength. I don't think we need the sanctions. I think that we would get along very, very well. I really believe that. I think we would get along with a lot of countries that we don't get along with today. And that we would be a lot richer for it than we are today.

There are three great geographic power-centers in the world. The Anglo-American/transatlantic one which is often called 'the west'. Mackinder's heartland, which is essentially Russia as the core of the Eurasian landmass, and China, which historically rules over Asia. Any alliance of two of those power-centers can determine the fate of the world.

Kissinger's and Nixon's biggest political success was to separate China from the Soviet Union. That did not make China an ally of the United States, but it broke the Chinese-Soviet alliance. It put the U.S. into a premier position, a first among equals. But even then Kissinger already foresaw the need to balance back to Russia:

On Feb. 14, 1972, President Richard Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger met to discuss Nixon’s upcoming trip to China. Kissinger, who had already taken his secret trip to China to begin Nixon’s historic opening to Beijing, expressed the view that compared with the Russians, the Chinese were “just as dangerous. In fact, they’re more dangerous over a historical period.”

Kissinger then observed that “in 20 years your successor, if he’s as wise as you, will wind up leaning towards the Russians against the Chinese.” He argued that the United States, as it sought to profit from the enmity between Moscow and Beijing, needed “to play this balance-of-power game totally unemotionally. Right now, we need the Chinese to correct the Russians and to discipline the Russians.” But in the future, it would be the other way around.

It took 45 years, not 20 as Kissinger foresaw, to rebalance the U.S. position.

After the Cold War the U.S. thought it had won the big ideological competition of the twentieth century. In its exuberance of the 'unilateral moment' it did everything possible to antagonize Russia. Against its promises it extended NATO to Russia's border. It wanted to be the peerless supreme power of the world. At the same time it invited China into the World Trade Organisation and thereby enabled its explosive economic growth. This unbalanced policy took its toll. The U.S. lost industrial capacity to China and at the same time drove Russia into China's hands. Playing the global hegemon turned out to be very expensive. It led to the 2006 crash of the U.S. economy and its people have seen little to no gains from it. Trump wants to revert this situation by rebalancing towards Russia while opposing China's growing might.

Not everyone shares that perspective. As security advisor to Jimmy Carter Brzezinski continued the Nixon/Kissinger policy towards China. The 'one China policy', disregarding Taiwan for better relations with Beijing, was his work. His view is still that the U.S. should ally with China against Russia:

"It is not in our interest to antagonize Beijing. It is much better for American interests to have the Chinese work closely with us, thereby forcing the Russians to follow suit if they don’t want to be left out in the cold. That constellation gives the U.S. the unique ability to reach out across the world with collective political influence."

But why would China join such a scheme? How would Russia be 'forced'? What costs would the U.S. have to endure by following such a course? (Brzezinski's view of Russia was always clouded. His family of minor nobles has its roots in Galicia, now in west Ukraine. They were driven from Poland when the Soviets extended their realm into the middle of the European continent. To him Russia will always be the antagonist.)

Kissinger's view is more realistic. He sees that the U.S. can not rule alone and must be more balanced in its relations:

[I]n the emerging multipolar order, Russia should be perceived as an essential element of any new global equilibrium, not primarily as a threat to the United States.

Kissinger is again working to divide Russia and China. But this time around it is Russia that needs to be elevated, that needs to become a friend.

Trump is following Kissinger's view. He wants good relations with Russia to separate Russia from China. He (rightly) sees China as the bigger long term (economic) danger to the United States. That is the reason why he, immediately after his election, started to beef up the relations with Taiwan and continues to do so. (Listen to Peter Lee for the details). That is the reason why he tries to snatch North Korea from China's hands. That is the reason why he makes nice with Putin.

It is not likely that Trump will manage to pull Russia out of its profitable alliance with China. It is true that China's activities, especially in the Central Asian -stans, are a long term danger to Russia. China's demographic and economic power is far greater than Russia's.  But the U.S. has never been faithful in its relations with Russia. It would take decades to regain its trust. China on the other hand stands to its commitments. China is not interested in conquering the 'heartland'. It has bigger fish to fry in south-east Asia, Africa and elsewhere. It is not in its interest to antagonize a militarily superior Russia.

The maximum Trump can possibly achieve is to neutralize Russia while he attempts to tackle China's growing economic might via tariffs, sanctions and by cuddling Taiwan, Japan and other countries with anti-Chinese agendas.

The U.S. blew its 'unilateral moment'. Instead of making friends with Russia it drove it into China's hands. Hegemonic globalization and unilateral wars proved to be too expensive. The U.S. people received no gains from them. That is why they elected Trump.

Trump is doing his best to correct the situation. For the foreseeable future the world will end up with three power centers. Anglo-America, Russia and China. (An aging and disunited Europe will flap in the winds.) These power centers will never wage direct war against each other, but will tussle at the peripheries. Korea, Iran and the Ukraine will be centers of these conflicts. Interests in Central Asia, South America and Africa will also play a role.

Trump understands the big picture. To 'Make America Great Again' he needs to tackle China and to prevent a deeper Chinese-Russian alliance. It's the neo-conservatives and neo-liberals who do not get it. They are still stuck in Brzezinski's Cold War view of Russia. They still believe that economic globalization, which helped China to regain its historic might, is the one and true path to follow. They do not perceive  all the damage they have done to 90% of the American electorate.

For now Trump's view is winning. But the lunatic reactions to the press conference show that the powers against him are still strong. They will sabotage him wherever possible. The big danger for now is that their view of the world might again raise to power.

Posted by b on July 17, 2018 at 11:41 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@359 Guerrero.. i agree with you..

@391 jdmckay.. thanks for your comments. i agree with you about some aspects of marcy, but i think there is a flaw in the documentation.. if one is relying on nyt, wapo and usa propaganda outlets like that - it ain't much for 'documentation' as i see it..

here what i think is a big part of my problem with marcy and the gang at ew's place... it is fine to question who is responsible for what.. but to not question the intel community, or the role of some ( in media and etc) to throw a monkey-wrench in the data that these same 'documents' marcy relies on always goes into something like this.. if there's a choice between it being russia or the intel community, or some partisan element pushing it a certain way - default place for run of the mill americans is this - russia is always the bad guy... that is the ''''american'''' way, from mccarthyism forward..

you know that saying about "can't see the forest for the trees'? that's the operational approach at ew / marcys..great you have msm documentation! people and sources can lie to push a particular angle.. it happens all the time..it's too myopic for me.. unfortunately there are no farsighted folks over at ew and they are all happy to role over the details without consideration for a larger framework to appreciate the many nuances.. how often have you read about these same posters being pissed about the usa throwing countless other countries elections?? never.. it never happens... same typical american myopic reality... this is the achilles heel of marcy and ew as i see it..

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 16:18 utc | 401

jdmckay.. or wikileaks... blame wikileaks as some unpatriotic thing run by some freak - julian assange - who is scum according to the folks at ew... that is more of it... i see someone named bob s asked the question, but no one is willing to offer a reply.. the folks at ew have their mind made up and are inflexible to their own blindspots...

"
BobS says:
July 18, 2018 at 10:49 pm

Does anyone know anything about Pat Lang’s (Sic Semper Tyrannis) crowing about the Chinese hacking Hillary Clinton’s server?
Reply"

no response... none of them will bother as it doesn't fit the prearranged script that ''''russian done it''''...

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 16:23 utc | 402

reading legal documentation with whole sections blacked out by the cia/fbi - ain't a great way to get at much either... that is a regular approach at ews place as well.. unfortunately there is a built in bias at ews and the only folks that are able to see that are the folks who don't share the same bias... those are the same folks banned from commenting at ews.. it is a closed bmaz shop..

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 16:28 utc | 403

jdmckay... here is a quote from another poster on another topic, but i think it is very applicable to marcy and the ew crowd.. they just don't get this and all the fine tooth combing of documentation doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this environment... again - big picture is missing at ews..

" blue peacock • 12 hours ago

How does the objective truth get disclosed in an environment of extreme deceit by so many parties?

How to trust western intelligence when they have such a long and sordid track record of deceit, lies and propaganda? At the same time there is such a long history of Russian and Chinese intelligence and information operations against the west.

Then there is the nexus among the highest levels of US law enforcement and intelligence as well as political elites in both parties and key individuals in the media complex.

We are living in a hall of mirrors and it seems the trend is towards confirmation bias in information consumption."

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 16:38 utc | 404

We have proof of Iraq's WMD.

Posted by: et Al | Jul 19 2018 17:00 utc | 405

EW site seems to be a fringe neocon blog,

Not only does the blog-owner come out that she has tipped off an american citizen to the FBI,
Here are some headlines:

"The Russian Hack "
"The Text about Flynn Wasn't the Substantial Role in the Russian attack.."
"How Russian Spies Cultivated the NRA and National Prayer Breakfast "
"How to Charge Americans in Conspiracies with Russian Spies"
"Putin Just Set Up Trump To Be Humiliated by the Most Loathed Man in the world"
"Why Is WikiLeaks Reading from ShadowBrokers' Kaspersky Script"
"How the DNC Hack Skeptics' Dominant Theory Sinks Stone"
"Does NSC Consider the Skripal Assassination Attempt to Be Election related"
"A New Kind of Fake News Assault: 48 Sites (Including Zero Hedge) Steal an emptywheel Post"

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 19 2018 17:20 utc | 406

@406 el Al.. thank you... that is another ''''well documented'''' example, lol..

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 17:55 utc | 407

Zanon 407

Yeah, I heard about her being a rat.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 19 2018 18:18 utc | 408

@zanon / russ.. hard to know how to contextualize that... i give her a pass on that.. when so many folks are playing others - it is a part of the wider game..

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 18:53 utc | 409

From the Twitterverse, an interesting observation from the outside looking in that's close to being correct.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 19 2018 19:02 utc | 410

data from @411 karlof1 post that i agree wtih - saved you opening another link!@

In last 15 years alone the US has destroyed entire countries of Iraq, Libya, Syria. Supported far-right + neo-nazi forces in coups in Venezuela (where they were defeated) and Ukraine. Yet so-called progressives refuse to even question any story the state dept pushes about Russia.

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 19:16 utc | 411

17 US intelligence agencies have found evidence of Russian interference in the 2016 US Presidential elections.

Posted by: et Al | Jul 19 2018 19:19 utc | 412

Guerrero @ 401

> Explain to me WHY the Russian Federation would interfere in the USA election? I should think that way over there in Eurasia, they have better things to do. <

I can think of dozens of reasons, all speculative but nevertheless...

1) US' refusal under multiple presidents to even consider removing our nukes from Russian border. AFAIK Putin has made his case well for some years, but it all falls on deaf ears here. "Russia is a threat" is hardwired.

2) Continuous US efforts to inhibit/block Russian access to open oil/gas markets.

3) Lack of understanding as to legitimacy of Russian incursions into Crimea/Ukraine/Georgia.

4) Same with Syria: Russia's actions in Syria have greatly accelerated an end to that nightmare, and much of what they've done was counter to US military "wishes".

5) US' failure to complete MOX reprocessing per agreement, while Russia has. this particular issue I am very familiar with.

6) US policy towards Iran, now ending JSOC and increased threats with people like Bolton as top advisers.


Plenty more I would add. The dichotomy is only growing wider and increasingly irreconcilable. US has been unable (or unwilling?) to come to terms with it's mistakes in Iraq/Libya/Syria. Even still, few on our shores know what really happened. The political class only digs deeper, seems to think if we had only "tried harder"...

There will be no solution that lasts if US does not face up to all this. I had some optimism this could happen, but now I'm not so sure. I've been living & working in Vietnam the last year plus largely because of this, much more hopeful here and happier, more honest people.

> I thought it had been established by scientific forensic methods that the data was exfiltrated
from the DNC server by means of a physical hard-drive, rather than by a remote hacking. Not so? <

Not that I'm aware of (not certain). But that's entirely separate issue from Clinton's server.

...

Zanon @ 407

> EW site seems to be a fringe neocon blog, <

Not even close. But hey, looks like folks here as hardwired on this as US political class I describe above. EW dug into and fought the "neocon" ME "liberations" going back to Iraq. Just a dumb statement.

> Not only does the blog-owner come out that she has tipped off an American citizen to the FBI, <

You should read her initial article on this. Your statement 100% mischaracterizes this action. And so what about an "American Citizen" if they're a crook?

@ James

Ok, I get where you're coming from. Have a good day!!!

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 19 2018 19:21 utc | 413

I get impression now, most commenters here don't give a rip if Russia hacked Clinton (and/or other '16 election interventions). Some seem to admire Putin's "divide & conquer" tactics. "What goes around comes around" is prevailing attitude.
####

If the shoe doesn't fit, it must be the shoe's fault. Musn't question the owner's foot. Charming.

Posted by: et Al | Jul 19 2018 19:23 utc | 414

good opinion from disobedient media The Eulogy Of An Immortal Russiagate Scandal

We must now conclude that the entire fabrication of this epic was not intended to convince the public based on evidence, but was instead intended to deflect attention from the reality of the 2016 rigging of the Democratic Primary on the part of the DNC. To deflect from the US war machine in Yemen and Syria and around the world. To justify the silencing of journalists and political prisoners like Julian Assange. To ensure that the multitude of wrongs, crimes, and infinitude of acts committed in darkness never come to light.

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 19:28 utc | 415

@413 el Al... publius tacitus wrote a good story on that 17 intel back in march..
link to it here..

this is the kind of data and inquiry that marcy/ew is either unable to, or unwilling to consider...

@414 jdmckay.. thanks - to you as well!

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 19:37 utc | 416

A welcome and refreshing article. Twitter has become a swamp of treason accusations against Trump, with very few supporting his performance in Helsinki, so I was happy to see this. Actually, Trump made a major contribution toward peace in the world, but also, and here's the rub: his actions greatly threatened the US-European deep state crime ring. These people tried to stop Trump, because a Trump-Putin alliance would expose their crimes and topple their control. The good news is, a US-Russian alliance would dominate the world, and with two peace-loving leaders, which I believe both Trump and Putin are, this will lead quickly to peace everywhere. God forbid that the deep state stop them.

Posted by: Karl Pomeroy | Jul 19 2018 19:37 utc | 417

jdmckay

Actually the headlines very well resonate with neocon agenda of today.

This is also intresting:
Back in 2010 a headline at EW read: "The NeoCons Make Unapologetic Call for McCarthyism "

But now suddenly the blog-owner calls up the same Neocon-McCarthyism-FBI to tip them off and writing posts on how american citizens could be indicted ("How to Charge Americans in Conspiracies with Russian Spies") for allegedly helping Russians.

I know MoA dont like this type of comments so I stop here.

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 19 2018 19:48 utc | 418

Tannenhouser @ 387

I made a mistake: Putin's statement I referred to was during interview with Mike Wallace after the Helsinki presser.

Relevant discussion (useful for context) begins @ 5 minutes, and Putin's statement begins at 9.00 minutes.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 19 2018 19:54 utc | 419

418 "The good news is, a US-Russian alliance would dominate the world, and with two peace-loving leaders"

One of which has increased US military spending, added tactical nuclear weapons to the list of goodies to be used against small non nuclear nations, has provided cover for Israeli killing and maiming of Palestinians, has moved the embassy to Jerusalem, has occupied more country in Syria, is protecting ISIS in Syria, set up more military bases in Syria and Iraq, has initiated the moves against Iran and Venezuela. Has a vision of global energy dominance. Yep. sounds peace loving.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 19 2018 19:57 utc | 420

Zanon @ 419

> But now suddenly the blog-owner calls up the same Neocon-McCarthyism-FBI to tip them off and writing posts on how american citizens could be indicted ("How to Charge Americans in Conspiracies with Russian Spies") for allegedly helping Russians. <

did you read the article? I'll just say, respectfully, you completely mischaracerize Marcy's recent effort... somehow slap "neocon" label w/out knowing what she said/did.

I'll leave it at that. Have a good day.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 19 2018 19:58 utc | 421

Pft @326

You present a reasonable evaluation of the potential for AZ Empire war/regime change against Iran. I do not mean to imply that I am convinced such aggressions are impossible, or even highly unlikely. I simply mean that over the past couple of years, I’ve been convinced that Iran was - as General Wesley Clark told us a decade ago - the coming final step in the destruction of 7 MENA countries.

And this conviction has terrified me.

Over the past several weeks, I’ve been seeing things that make me doubt that a full on attack is likely.

Top on this list is the realization that the CIA/MI6/Mossad installed the Ayatollah Khomeini back in 1980. This successfully crushed the socialist revolution, while coopting some of the language and structures of real socialism.

Now, the AZ Empire has often failed to completely control the terrorists and counter-revolutionary nutjobs they back. And it is entirely possible that the Empire now sees the IRI as having outgrown its purpose, and so is ripe for yet another “regime change.”

However, if the IRI is a genuine opponent of the Empire, and faces a serious military attack, even of the limited scope you suggest, then I would expect Iran to launch a devastating missile barrage against KSA, Israel and US Naval forces.

And I’m not at all sure the Empire is willing to bear such a retaliation.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 19:59 utc | 422

To John Zelnicker:
It amazes me how differently different people interpret Trump. You say, "He cares not about diplomacy, foreign relations, the economy, immigration, etc. He only cares about himself." What I see in Trump is someone whose priorities go something like this: his family, The United States of America, and world peace. He absolutely loves this country, always has. After all, our system is what enabled his success, and that's because we have more freedom than most countries in the world. At least, I feel incredibly totally free, and I'm down in the lower ranks!! But also, Trump is dedicated to world peace. He always deplored the neocon killing that followed 9/11, and said so repeatedly and outspokenly. Argue all you like, Trump has to play a subtle game against the DS. He can't afford to always make it look like what it is. Meanwhile, Trump, who doesn't need to live in that pit of jail cell called the White House, is sacrificing his own security and that of his family. Therefore, he is putting his personal life last, not first. Sure he needs attention. Look at the media he's fighting. Take the whole context. But again, different people see him differently. That's one of the secrets of his success. Remember, Trump was an avid follower of Norman Vincent Peale and attended that famous positive thinker's lectures every Sunday for years. That's where Trump is coming from.

Posted by: Karl Pomeroy | Jul 19 2018 20:05 utc | 423


Breaking news: Trump invites Putin to Washington this autumn - White House
https://www.rt.com/usa/433746-trump-invites-putin-washington/

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 19 2018 20:07 utc | 424

@417 james

I think I saw that one, thanks.

vis my earlier comment #415, this springs to mind:

"When did you stop beating your wife?" ;)

Posted by: et Al | Jul 19 2018 20:12 utc | 425

Posted by: somebody @271

"Voting machines are not safe (no computer is). People should refuse to use them."

Yep. I would add that electronic machines for counting paper ballots are also easily rigged. During the Democratic Primary in CA, a voter discovered that the ballot tabulating machine did not recognize a vote for Sanders. Only because Sanders was the only vote he marked was this discovered.

Paper ballots, filled out in ink and then hand counted multiple times with witnesses from any interested parties is a technology that isn't broken, and shouldn't have been "fixed."

Some years back, Ireland bought US computer voting machines. They ran some tests on them and decided they were completely untrustworthy. They not only refused to use them, but actually broke them down into their component parts so that they could never be used by anyone.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 20:14 utc | 426

Tannenhouser @ 387

Sorry, I left out URL for Mike Wallace interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHY8yG4mVzs

Worth watching the whole thing, interesting interview.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 19 2018 20:24 utc | 427

Put @383:
"Us gets only a small percentage of their oil from Saudi Arabia"

Absolutely true. And if the seat of power was in the nation-state, that would be a crucial point. However, the oil industry is fully multi-national, and all oil goes into the global energy market. And this is nothing new. Remember that the CIA overthrew the republic of Iran in 1953 at the behest of the company that became known as British Petroleum.

Dutch Shell Oil was a major winner of the oil contracts after the regime changes in Iraq and Libya, even though that nation-state had little or nothing to do with those military attacks.

For many years, the principle foreign source of oil imported to the US was Nigeria, and today, the US is basically energy independent. So the AZ Empire wars for oil have little to do with US national needs.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 20:29 utc | 428

@Pft | Jul 19, 2018 7:45:33 AM | 383

[US] gets only a small percentage of their oil from Saudi Arabia. People forget oil was priced at almost 150 dollars s barrel over 10-12 years ago, it can hit 200 a barrel (factoring in inflation) without much more of an impact. This probably would not be allowed to happen until Trump locks up his second term though

The only reason the U.S. dollar continues to be the global reserve currency is that oil, mostly Saudi Arabia's oil, is priced in dollars. If the flow of Middle Eastern oil stopped -- which Iran can easily arrange if attacked -- there would be no need for the dollar globally. Then the U.S. would crash.

Trust me on this, Iran suffers far more than the US, not to mention many other oil dependent countries. Lets hope it doesn't happen.

I am by no means certain that Iran would suffer more. Would a war on Iran be sustainable if the U.S. economy were crashing due to a worthless dollar?

I agree, let's all hope we don't learn the answer the hard way, the truly crazy, morally obscene Neocon way.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 19 2018 20:42 utc | 429

@420 jdmckay... can you tell me what specifically putin said that you believe expresses russias responsibility for the clinton e mail hack? i am not seeing it in the wallace interview.. thanks..

@425 et Al... thanks... that quote is exactly the approach taken by the usa and in particular by wallace in the interview with putin - specifically in the area that @420 jdmckay refers to where he and others like ew believe putin has admitted to the clinton e mail hack.. it is hilarious actually as putin says nothing to the effect.. but, this is the overall approach of western media with regard to russia - as in the skripal affair and with regard to wallaces interview - ""When did you stop beating your wife?" ;)" that is the western msm's starting point! it is hard to communicate in an environment such as this, and as we see in the interview that @427 jdmckay linked to ( i linked to it back @82 on this thread), wallace has to continue to interpret putin to the point where putin asks for some patience on the part of wallace! the interview sums up the inability of the west to relate to much of anything other then their constant naval gazing...

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2018 21:13 utc | 430

Piotr Berman @393

Thanks for the (backhanded) compliment ;-)

"3. National elections are more valuable than Coke commercials.

While LESS valuable in terms of "billings", marketing campaigns use the same skill set in politics and commerce, and mistakes may be similar, e.g. debacles of "New Coke" and "New Clinton"."

That's my point. (S)electing national leadership is much more valuable to those who pay the masters of PR/Marketing/Propaganda than any single consumer product. Therefore, it only stands to reason that the brilliant minds behind advertising campaigns would be utilized to an even greater extent in national elections.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 21:26 utc | 431

To 421, Peter AU:
You're right that it looks that way on that level. I was talking on a broader level, and I think Trump is acting on a broader level. I believe he's actually trying to accomplish world peace, rather than just trying to look like he's accomplishing world peace. When you're really trying to accomplish something, as opposed to just creating the appearance of doing so, your actions may be hard to decipher---except to the like-minded.

Posted by: Karl Pomeroy | Jul 19 2018 21:30 utc | 432

The bombshell documentary "The Magnitsky Act - Behind the Scenes" (by Andrei Nekrasov) which has been deleted from YouTube and in banned in many European countries thanks to efforts made by Bill Broward to suppress it. Nontheless, it is available on bitchute.

THE MAGNITSKY ACT - BEHIND THE SCENES (about 2 hrs long)

https://www.bitchute.com/video/lQ3qEwX66pIL/


EXCLUSIVE: Advance Review of Devastating Film About Bill Browder Which He Tried to Suppress

https://russia-insider.com/en/exclusive-advance-review-devastating-film…

<

А film about Sergei Magnitsky, the Russian lawyer who died in prison after allegedly being tortured, is set to be shown in Washington after criticism and legal threats forced European TV channels to pull their broadcasts.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/controversial-film-russia…

Posted by: jsb | Jul 19 2018 21:44 utc | 433

@380 Johnny B:

Ego or not, Trump cannot be told anything. So when he's determined, that's it. And I believe he's determined to work with Russia to create world peace and eventually destroy the DS. He's a good man to have on your side. BTW, Trump's mother was probably not the last person who told him what to do. Trump was an avid follower of Norman Vincent Peale, author of Power of Positive Thinking, and attended his lectures in New York for many years of Sundays.

Posted by: Karl Pomeroy | Jul 19 2018 21:52 utc | 434

Activist Potato @395

“I was enjoying your post and the many interesting viewpoints it raises until you finished with that line.“

Fair enough. I actually added that line after completing my comment, and had some misgivings about it. I should have listened to the “good angel” on one shoulder instead of the “bad demon" on the other.

I apologize for including a sentence that carried a personal accusation and condescending attitude.

“But the idea that the whole game was scripted and pulled off perfectly by hidden manipulators strikes me as only possible in a fully developed "matrix-like" world, and I don't think we are living in that world yet.”

I don’t mean to imply that the entire (s)election campaign was perfectly scripted. In fact, to me it’s clear that they modified it throughout to adjust to reactions to whatever was the “script.”

Nor do I mean to imply that #theRealDonaldTrump was their only groomed character. It would be insane for them to spend 40+ years developing a single plan to the exclusion of all others.

As I’ve written numerous times, the 0.01% were going to “win” whether HRC or Donald Trump® became the anointed one. Whether Sanders was meant to play the "sheepdog" role from the start or not, Job #1 of the campaign was to crush the real, grass-roots progressive/populist movements that had been building over the previous many years.

And while it’s true that the MSM standard narratives do contain “explanations” for each incident throughout the several-years long campaign marketing program, the overall view that the entire process was a psyop sure looks to pass the scientific standard of being a single “Theory,” that explains a wide range of seemingly unrelated facts/observations.

It is “valid” in that it explains the events we can look back at, and it is “reliable” in that it continues to explain new evidences as they arise.

And yes, you were correct from the start that we can never "know" the full truth (even if whistleblowers appeared and presented overwhelming evidence, there's always the possibility that even that was a psyop). But I still think that viewing events through a lens that does in fact make logical sense and bring events into focus (while remaining open to exculpatory new evidence) is a fruitful way to perceive reality.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 21:58 utc | 435

@414 "Guerrero @ 401

> Explain to me WHY the Russian Federation would interfere in the USA election?
I should think that way over there in Eurasia, they have better things to do. <

I can think of dozens of reasons, all speculative but nevertheless..."

Goes on to cite policy differences regarding Crimea, SDI, etc... My question still stands:
-> If you are Russia, what sense would it make, on account of these disputes, to try to influence the result of a Presidential election in the United States? No sense whatsoever!
Wouldn't Russia, as a rational actor, simply engage with whoever is sworn into office?

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 19 2018 22:41 utc | 436

Oh what a tangled web they've weaved. It turns out the Magnitsky Act is being used to wage economic war against the largely socialist country of Nicaragua!

"The US Executive Branch has used the Global Magnitsky Act to target the finances of leaders of the Electoral Supreme Court, the National Police, the city government of Managua and the ALBA corporation in Nicaragua."

The above is a terrific article on the "color revolution" underway in Nicaragua.

Oh, and guess who is a major player in the pro-regime change operation?

Julio Martinez Ellsberg. Who? Why, the son of famous hero Pentagon Papers "leaker," Daniel Ellsberg.

Check out his performance on DemocracyNow! (which is at least now presenting counter-arguments, as opposed to their earlier 100% pro-"protester" coverage.

Also, I couldn't find Ellsberg's "Coalition for Democracy and Justice" in Nicaragua. But I do find one under that name that is part of CIA's Barzini gang of Kurdish thugs out to secede from Iraq, Syria and Iran. I also find one that is a Jewish "liberal" group all about justice for everyone except the Palestinians.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 22:46 utc | 437

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 19 2018 22:59 utc | 438

@414 "Guerrero @ 401

> Explain to me WHY the Russian Federation would interfere in the USA election?

As we discuss geo-politics, we need a lecture on evil. As we should know, some actors on the global scene are evil, and they cannot be analyzed in the same way as normal folks. Their behavior exhibits many peculiarities, like forming groups of three, axes of evil. The reasons why it takes three to axidize (axise?) are murky, perhaps it is related to quantum mechanics: quarks also form larger particles in groups of three.

A cardinal quality of evil actors is hatred of goodness, thus as a rule they hate USA and more often than not, Israel, NATO and so on. As it was explained by a number of sage commentators, the interfering actions were somewhat weakly connected with any particular outcome, but the led to doubt, dissension and distrust, thus sapping the good qualities of the target countries.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 20 2018 0:20 utc | 439

@427jdmacay.tanks for the link. I watched it all. I think its a stretch to attribute tacit admittance of the deed. At best I might give you tacit approval of the deed. I even went and checked out empty wheel. I agree with james comments here about EW, I also agree with Putin when he told Chris that he has been deceived... on the facts in Syria. I stand by my earlier comment that the MSM would be all over tacit approval instead of the basically nothing burger hysterics. What do you think about Mueller not following the treaty for lawful questioning of Russian citizens that Put in brought up. Do you think maybe Mueller is tacitly admitting the indictment is bunk:)

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2018 0:41 utc | 440

@414 "Guerrero @ 401 @438 >

Explain to me WHY the Russian Federation would interfere in the USA election?

As we discuss geo-politics, we need a lecture on evil . As we should know, some actors
on the global scene are evil, and they cannot be analyzed in the same way as normal folks.

Excuse me. The suggestion here is that Russia interfered
in the USA election because Putin (Russia itself?) is evil?

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 20 2018 0:56 utc | 441

Guerrero@440, I believe the post you ask about is intended to be satirical...

Posted by: the pessimist | Jul 20 2018 1:13 utc | 442

Once again, Israeli media are free to tell one another what we will never see or hear in the Western MSM.


Netanyahu brags to Likud Party that he convinced US President Trump to drop the Iran nuclear deal.


“The prime minister then begins to speak about the Iranian regime — “not the Iranian people, I have nothing against them” — before he is interrupted by an unidentified person off-screen who says, “It will disappear with the help of God.”

“You said it. From your mouth to God,” Netanyahu says in response as the clip ends.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 20 2018 1:27 utc | 443

@ geurrero - i think @441 is correct on piotrs comments! one has to be really versed in the posters on this site to have a leg up!

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2018 1:27 utc | 444

@442 daniel.. that sounds about right.. even if he didn't, he will say he did.. and of course trump will not call him on it either way..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2018 1:28 utc | 445

Tannenhouser @ 387 "I made a mistake: Putin's statement I referred to was during interview with Mike Wallace after the Helsinki presser ..."

Minor point: I believe it was Chris Wallace, not Mike.

Posted by: spudski | Jul 20 2018 1:55 utc | 446

@443 PB is particularly guilty of this kind of deceptive posting. Newcomers to MOA often have to learn the hard way. I believe he has been responsible for several nervous breakdowns over the years.

Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2018 2:07 utc | 447

@ guerrero - i think @441 is correct on piotrs comments! one has to be really versed in the posters on this site to have a leg up!

I get it now, thanks. I had noticed that Pyotr is deep; that slider he threw, went right by me!

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 20 2018 2:27 utc | 448

I am sorry for (a) botching italics (b) "deception". I tried to summarize the mainstream explanations where "Russian influence" is discussed in similar terms as heresies that are ultimately caused by insidious, barely visible demonic influence, otherwise, how would good folks ever doubt inerrancy of the leaders of the (only true) Church? Currently, intelligence agencies took place of the Pope. I thought that citing quantum mechanics and the love of USA, Israel and NATO as the symptom of goodness is snarky enough.

Pope is wrong, it is a sin of Pride, even if subsequently Collegium of Cardinals finds out that, say, a previous Pope was quite wrong and decided to dig out his corps and drag through the streets of Rome to stress that point (check "Cadaver Synod"). But for a mere lay member of the Church (a regular resident of USA) it is an act of Pride to trust his grasp of facts and logic above the institutional representatives of the virtue of wisdom (heads of intelligence agencies).

Now I could say that the sages of our establishment media show most exemplary humility -- but since I am a rather shady character, you can bet that this is sarcastic.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 20 2018 3:29 utc | 449

@448 Ah yes Pope Formosus. Justice at it's finest. I see something like that happening to Trump if the Democrats ever get their way.

Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2018 3:43 utc | 450

Bill Mitchell has some good ideas on funding progressive programs from his 'Reclaiming the State'

""Fully embracing a progressive vision of sovereignty also means abandoning the many false macroeconomic myths that plague left-wing and progressive thinkers. One of the most pervasive and persistent myths is the assumption that governments are revenue-constrained, that is, that they need to 'fund' their expenses through taxes or debt. This leads to the corollary that governments have to 'live within their means', since ongoing deficits will inevitably result in an 'excessive' accumulation of debt, which in turn is assumed to be 'unsustainable' in the long run. In reality, as we show in Chapter 8, monetarily sovereign (or currency-issuing) governments - which nowadays include most governments - are never revenue-constrained because they issue their own currency by legislative fiat and always have the means to achieve and sustain full employment and social justice."
--------------------

When talking about sovereign governments, the terms deficits and surplus are almost the opposite of the comparison with household budgets.

Deficits are the government spending money into the economy. This is basically good as it supplies the money that we want to hopefully put in a savings account or spend on food and shelter. Think in terms of social security checks, unemployment payments, food stamps, basic research on climate change, putting people to work on many useful projects. This is a good use of money. Don't think in terms of bailing out banks, military adventurism and other types of corporate welfare.

Surpluses are taking money out the economy. This results in the self defeating austerity measures we are seeing. Cutting back on all types of social services to 'balance the budget'. Money needs to be spent but spent wisely. Money shouldn't be pulled out of an economy when so many people have a need for it and for the jobs that can supply it. Money is not needed to help pay for CEO bonuses.
----------------

Also of interest

POLICY NOTE 2018/2 | March 2018

Guaranteed Jobs through a Public Service Employment Program

Amid a recent upsurge in support for a national job guarantee program, L. Randall Wray, Stephanie A. Kelton, Pavlina R. Tcherneva, Scott Fullwiler, and Flavia Dantas outline a new proposal for a federally funded program with decentralized administration. Their Public Service Employment (PSE) program would offer a job—paying a uniform living wage with a basic benefits package—to all who are ready and willing to work. In advance of an upcoming report detailing the economic impact of the PSE, this policy note presents an overview of the goals and structure of the program in the context of current labor market trends and the prospects of poverty reduction.

Posted by: financial matters | Jul 20 2018 10:28 utc | 451

Fairleft @ 318

Exactly right, watch what they do not what they say. But this advice goes well beyond Trump-watching.

Watch what the global moneychangers do, not say.

Watch China and the US in their financialist sexual relations which resemble a position out of a globalist version of the Kama Sutra.

Who is fucking who is what concerns Trump's limited view. He wants to be the man in the relationship! Every relationship. At any cost!

The reality is China and the US are both getting their rocks off and it doesn't matter to either which one is sticking what inside the other as long as the orgasm continuesto grow simultaneously for both. True love conquers all.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 20 2018 13:25 utc | 452

@450Finacialmatters.......great read that thanks. It's nice to see 'solutions' instead of the constant problem porn inherent in the journey towards social equity. The attempts at shifting our perceptions away from the false received wisdoms of old as expressed by Bill Mitchel are positive as well. Again thanks for the morning read.....

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2018 13:47 utc | 453

I would note that Russia and China are not natural allies.
Siberia is the issue; Russia has relatively little population in Siberia but derives enormous natural resources from that region. The Amur River conflicts in the late 1960s as well as the existence of Mongolia are both examples of this.
The primary reason why Russia and China are pulling closer together is due to American ham-handed foreign policy - much as why Russia and Iran are now relatively friendly despite equally historical animosity.
Russian advances in nuclear weapons technology apply to China as well...

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 20 2018 14:30 utc | 454

i love the humour, even if you guys aren't trying to be funny! - dh in particular.. thanks dh!

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2018 16:08 utc | 455

This would be hilarious if it wasn't being serious: The current Liberal "theories" why Trump seeks détente with Russia. The article's author has just destroyed what little credibility he had as a journalist and historian, and reduced himself to crude propagandist.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 20 2018 18:02 utc | 456

I would note that Russia and China are not natural allies.
Siberia is the issue; ....
Posted by: c1ue | Jul 20, 2018 10:30:53 AM | 453

Equally well you could say that USA and Canada are not natural allies, and dig out conflicts like "55'40 of fight", the war of 1812 and the enormous resources that Canadians extract from their vast territory. If Americans want Canadian oil, gas or nickel, they can buy it and they do.

Chinese do not exactly flock north, it is not their national dream to have a cute spacious homestead in the frozen territories. They gave up on disputing Amur territories annexed by Russia ca. 1860, or the independence of Outer Mongolia, and residual territorial disputes concerning islands on Amur River were resolved. Now they cheerfully sing "Waves on Black Dragon River" (Amur waves, a romantic Russian waltz with lyrics translated to Chinese).

An economy with surplus of energy and metals is more complementary than competing with an economy based on industries that need them, and "securing the raw materials" is nicely done by joint ventures in the infrastructure. Extracting resources from vast areas with permafrost is very capital intensive. Then there are industries where China and Russia could compete "head on", weapons, aircraft, nuclear reactors and few more, but as in the case with extractive industries, they need very long time horizons, huge capital, and it takes a lot of effort to keep edge or be even with the West, so again, cooperation is natural, even if each side aims for some advantage.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 20 2018 19:07 utc | 457

karlof1. Yeah, I had to pretty much swear off Hartmann when he went full-boat "With Her." He'd always been a Democratic Partisan of the progressive branch, but when he signed on to the RUSSIA spin cycle, I couldn't stomach it.

As always, he has a significant blind spot in this article. He refers to Trump's ties with "Mafia," and to "Russian Oligarchs," but he fails to note that the mafia in question, and the specific oligarchs tied to Trump are of Hartmann's tribe.

I'm quite certain that Trump is beholden to monied interests, certainly going back to Wilbur Ross convincing his Rothschilds bosses to pour $billions into Trump's failed Real Estate and Gambling "empire" in the 1980s. Maybe Trump actually does share their Zionist ideology (though I tend to agree that he has no ideology beyond hedonism). And I suspect that a major factor behind all those Russian, Jewish Oligarchs buying property from Trump was some form of money laundering/bribery.

Oh, and I have been stating ever since the "pee-pee" story broke that even if true, it would have no impact on a candidate who said he could shoot someone to death on Park Avenue and his ratings would go up.... and then his ratings went up. (And I use the term "ratings" specifically).

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 20 2018 19:32 utc | 458

@458 Not only do they sing Amur Waves they have special hair styles when they do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GgIqBu-Qvo

Sorry about that. Getting the james seal of approval has gone to my head.

Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2018 19:38 utc | 459

Daniel @459--

I wouldn't call Hartmann a progressive as he's pro-war--a position no genuine Progressive could ever hold except in very rare circumstances. He's what's known as a Failed Liberal as are the great majority of those calling themselves Democrats, just as most people calling themselves Republicans are Failed Conservatives or Failed Libertarians.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 20 2018 20:05 utc | 460

I find Pat Lang's theory that Hillary's 30,000 -4 missing emails were stove-piped to "China" by some malware installed on an unsecured private computer unconvincing. Various factors related to her stated loyalties, and her aggressively reckless persona, suggest that it is far more likely that the destination was "Israel" and not "China".

In no particular order here are some factors which seem relevant:
- HRC, like most most hi-profile Western politicians, is pro-Israel.
- Since there's no Christian-morality reason for Christians to praise, support, or defend "Israel" from criticism, it's logical to assume that they're paid, in cash or kind for this otherwise inexplicable 'loyalty'. And none of these 'loyalists' are paupers.
- "Israel" fancies itself as a Centre Of Excellence for computer software expertise and ingenuity.
- HRC makes no secret of the fact that some of her big Donors are wealthy and powerful Israel First Jews.
- HRC, ironically, also made no secret of her intention to use her own unsecured private computer system to generate State Dept correspondence on this system.
- HRC, if she put AmeriKKKa's interests first, before all other interests, would have taken the time to acquaint herself with the pitfalls of running USG business out of an unsecured system, and complied with the advice she received on computer security.
- HRC, unfortunately, had sufficient power and influence to ignore good advice with impunity.

A thought experiment:

What if Hillary created and prolonged the initial furor about computer security in order to advertise the fact that she "won" the debate and would therefore be using unsecured computers to send and receive emails relating to State Dept business?

Whether or not this was her intention, the net result was exactly the same as if her reckless disregard for caution and long-standing protocols was planned in advance and deliberate.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 20 2018 20:13 utc | 461

Hoarsewhisperer @462--

The optimal solution to the entire affair is for Hillary Clinton and all her allies to be arrested and put on public trial for their many crimes and have it broadcast by C-SPAN. It'd be several orders of magnitude more explosive than the Watergate Hearings were almost 45 years ago generating many more arrests and trials. IMO, such an event is the requisite first step toward restoring the Rule of Law and eroding Deep State power. However as it's ever so plain to see, the Deep State and all its allies are heavily engaged in making certain such an event never occurs--just as no one was ever really arrested and tried for the murders of JFK, MLK, RFK, or 911: Each was contained by a government organized--Deep State approved--cover-up committee.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 20 2018 20:38 utc | 462

Hoarsewhisperer 462
Pat Lang has been consistently wrong predicting Russia/SAA moves in Syria. Not good considering his career was military intelligence.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 20 2018 20:57 utc | 463

Hoarse: I find Pat Lang's theory ... emails were stove-piped to "China"

But it's not his theory. He has sources that he believes to be credible that have (apparently) confirmed that was China.

I also thought Israel. Mostly because they were trying to keep the country involved a secret.

In any case, the country is not as important as the fact that Comey's "no intent" excuse for not prosecuting Hillary was completely bogus. He could pull that off only because there was no evidence that sensitive info was compromised. Now we know that there WAS evidence but it was ignored. Wow.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 20 2018 21:36 utc | 464

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 20, 2018 4:57:14 PM | 464
(Pl's predictions/ the Strzok fiasco)

Being an 'overview' type of person (near enough is good enough during a blizzard of fine detail) I have trouble following progress in Syria due to lack of familiarity with the significance of pawns and arrows on battlefield maps. So I rely mostly on progress reports from people who seem to know what they're talking about such as b, PL, local news reports and above all RF Govt and Syrian Govt to gauge progress.

Since b published his assessment of the prospects of the currently concluding offensive 3 or 4 weeks ago, PL's reports/ predictions have seemed similarly positive and accurate. To me.
..........
The SST 'community' is really steamed up over the HRC email scandal, bs and cover-ups, and seized on the revelation, in the current inquiry, that the (undisclosed) destination of the diverted emails was "not Russia". PL has 'been informed' that it's China and that COULD turn out to be true.

The reason I think it's probably not true is that discovery of a "China" hack would be more or less just as 'good' as a Russian hack for propaganda purposes. Better in some ways because The Swamp would have a ready-made China + Russia Axis of Evil to scare us with.

The controversy arose because investigator Strzok can't remember attending a briefing during which the identity of the offending country was disclosed. There was either a request or an insinuation that Strzok should follow up on it but he did nothing whatsoever. The most plausible explanation for Strzok's inaction is that the undisclosed entity was deemed by Strzok to be 'friendly'(er) than Russia or China. I don't believe that he would simply ignore a link to China because nailing China would do wonders for his promotional prospects. And he was handed the lead (and the prospects for promotion) on a plate.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 20 2018 21:51 utc | 465

Hoarsewhisper
It is interesting watching the crowd over there try and dissect their totally corrupt state.
After SAA had cleared the eastern arm and Daraa, there was a pause while Putin worked his diplomacy on Nutty. During that pause Lang said SAA were finished there and moving to Idlib because nutty would not allow SAA to come close to the border. After Putin worked his diplomacy the offensive continued.
Both nutty and an Iranian envoy had flown into Moscow on the same day.
To this day, Lang still makes no connection between Russian diplomacy and military moves on the ground.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 20 2018 22:15 utc | 466

@460 dh..lol... it is bizarre how you can dig up this stuff! it's a cool tune!

@464 peter.. that is true what you note about pat lang! however, with regard the foreign country that hacked the e mails - he is getting his info from other sources that i believe are correct.. ditto @465 jrs comment.. that was mostly how i was thinking and saw it too.. that it is china makes no difference in the bigger pic here, or only in so far as the crazy rds - russia derangement syndrome can take a temporary chill pill maybe..

@466 hoarsewhisperer.. i hear what you are saying about pat lang, but i find b a much stronger candidate for seeing the long term trends and developments then pl.. pl has military background, but he was suggesting they go deal with idlib first and pissed that they hadn't... i don't think pls strength was in strategy... the other problem i have with pl and his site is the america-centric ness of it, which include most, but not all of the posters.. they are a combo of military brats and americans with a fairly inoculated perspective based on those 2 characteristics - military training and american.. it seems hard for most people to get out of their perspective and see it an alternative way..

with regard to your last paragraph - that is interesting... i always thought israel might have been the country that had hacked into the system and had the clinton e mail data, but again - my bias is showing!!

what i find amazing is how the usa can be jimmyjacked up the yinyang by israel and zionism - and all of this gets nada mention in the usa! if the usa was really concerned about another country having undue influence on them, they could start with israel and they would be doing themselves a real favour.. instead, they obsess about russia.. go figure..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2018 22:18 utc | 467

karlof1 @ 461

> I wouldn't call Hartmann a progressive as he's pro-war-- <

He is not. If you insist, plz provide references.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 20 2018 22:45 utc | 468

@469 jdmckay. i know you didn't ask me, and i know nothing about him... i did look at the common dreams article that karlof1 linked @457.. based on the way that article was framed, i would say the guy isn't a 'progressive', but maybe this term is something i don't understand... it seems like a standard hit piece on trump that is trying to frame trump a particular way - leaving out a number of other options.. i guess they wanted to just boil it down to 3 for simplicity - There Are 3 Main Theories That Explain Trump’s Approach to Putin and Russia—Which One Makes the Most Sense? - but the article is very lame for the very same reason.. is that progressive?

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2018 0:13 utc | 469

From Global Research, America Overrules Trump (by PCR)
https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-overrules-trump-no-peace-with-russia/5647943

Russians (like any other country) should know they cannot trust any promises from the US and that any statements made by Trump will be countered by very powerful forces here in the US. It is shameful how the politicians and the media speak with one voice on this.

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 21 2018 0:25 utc | 470

karlof 1 463
HRC should be charged and that was part of Trump's campaign push. But for some reason the justice dept is going nowhere. I'm wondering what Sessions is doing since as AG he's supposed to be able to coordinate FBI efforts.

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 21 2018 0:27 utc | 471

Jdmckay. Do you think Mueller is tacitly admitting the indictment is bunk by not adhering to the treaty Putin brings up in the Chris Wallace interview?

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 21 2018 0:28 utc | 472

James @ 470

Although I suspect I'll get slammed here, I'll respond anyway.

FWIW, if I'm driving or at home when his daily radio show is broadcast I listen. Average maybe 3 days a week. (I hold my nose and listen to Hannity/Ingram & even Bud Sexton under same circumstances). I find Hartmann to be one of the most interesting, well informed people anywhere on talk/news radio.

And I happen to agree with him that Trump poses great danger for America, for more reasons I can count (and that simply don't get discussed here).

> i know nothing about him <

Maybe take a couple minutes to read his (decent) wikipedia bio.

> There Are 3 Main Theories That Explain Trump’s Approach to Putin and Russia—Which One Makes the Most Sense? <

He says his point "3" is most likely. I've looked into this stuff long before this article, and everything in there is true, and there's a lot more that isn't in that article. Trump's Panama property for example, currently going to Panama courts because investors losing their shirt have seized it's management from him. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/17/trump-ocean-club-panama-money-laundering-reports

And if you don't like that article, take you pick from this list: https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&source=hp&ei=QYJSW9qPHunJjwTT85ugCA&q=trump+panama+hotel+money+laundering&oq=Trump+panama&gs_l=psy-ab.1.5.0l10.3723.7552.0.13455.13.12.0.0.0.0.286.1509.4j7j1.12.0..2..0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.12.1498.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i67k1j0i3k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i20i264k1.0.77vus2Oj-l0

Then there's "Trump University", a cheap 2 bit fraud. Bunch of others like this just since 2012. Huge trail of unpaid contractors on his properties: https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&ei=T4JSW679IJujjwT72KSYDQ&q=trump+unpaid+contracts&oq=trump%27s+unpaid&gs_l=psy-ab.1.6.0l2j0i22i30k1l8.540891.543868.0.549174.9.9.0.0.0.0.183.1052.3j6.9.0..2..0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1045...0i131k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i20i264k1j0i22i10i30k1.0.qSyu_wgXviA His broken contracts in Palm Beach County during real estate boom of early 2000's is part of the culture down there.

I would also point out this is not unlike GW Bush's bio well known before he was elected in 2k (but laregly ignored by media, instead telling lies about Gore) but on a much larger scale. AFAIC, just as Bush's bio did turn out to be a good predictor of the DISASTERS he created, looks to me like same thing with Trump.

What a different world this would be if Gore was president. No Iraq/Afghanistan. US would be well on it's way to green economy and renewable energy for starters.

I just hope we don't have to endure Trump's disasters like we did with W' and get his ass out of there ASAP!!!

These things are not academic, they matter... a lot. I have no problem with Hartmann's point 3.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 21 2018 1:06 utc | 473

Tannenhouser @ 473

Huh? I presume you're being snarky.

Wallace asked point blank, if Putin was responsible for that hack (Clinton emails). Putin would not answer, instead went on detailed description explaining all those emails were "facts". He seemed to know a lot about them.

Looks like a "non admission" admission to me. Those emails drove news cycles for almost 3 weeks, and certainly contributed (maybe changed) outcome of the election.

I'm happy to wait for the outcome of Mueller's investigation, and see that he's got.

And FWIW, I am a Putin admirer (although for a lot of reasons never discussed here).

Knowing fullwell I'm no longer part of the herd around here, sure I'll be slammed. If anything interesting comes up, I'll jump in.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 21 2018 1:17 utc | 474

Jdmckay. I thought it was funny not snarky. In all seriousness Putin questioned why Mueller did not respect proper diplomatic channels in regards to the individuals in his indictment. Apparently there is a treaty in place to question individuals in cases like this. My question was if you thought Mueller was tacitly admitting the indictment was bunk. He obviously doesn't care to actually talk to them otherwise he would have requested it in the indictment, no? Why indict them if he has no real desire to talk to them. Maybe because the indictment's bunk. VIPS has presented a strong case suggesting it was a leak not a hack. As to the three reasons Trump met with Putin, might I suggest that as POTUS it behooves him to contact the president of the RF especially when there are a bunch of nutters in Murica who seem bent on war. I'm not slamming you at all, your dissent is appreciated. Soooo that being said why do you think he didn't take advantage of the treaty? Russia seems to respond fairly and reciprocally when diplomatic norms and international rule of law is adhered to.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 21 2018 2:07 utc | 475

What a different world this would be if Gore was president. No Iraq/Afghanistan. US would be well on it's way to green economy and renewable energy for starters.

I will take exception to this assessment. When Clinton was busy being impeached, Gore's circle launched the attack
on Yugoslavia, bombing the bridges over the Danube and turning the Mu'hadin Muslim fighters into the Wahabi good-guys.

There is a chance that Bill Clinton might not have allowed that wanton war, the first of several more.
VP Gore and his entourage operated behind the scenes that fateful year; he was up to his elbows in... gore.

"Green economy" "renewable energy" "climate change" In the Third World, these mass-media catch phrases are mysterious.

¿WHY do "green economy","renewable energy" and "climate change" seem like cartoons?
WHY are these concepts unexpressable in the Nahuatl language?
Call me a contrarian, call me a rebel:
the official opinion of two million Empire professors MIGHT be no more valid
than the expressions of an unhinged shaman living in the material (real) world.


Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 21 2018 2:27 utc | 476

@474 jdmckay... thanks for sharing.. first off - if you aren't part of the herd mentality - great! no one is going to slam you around here for having a different viewpoint as i see it.. i think folks will challenge others, but generally i never see others dismiss people here for having a different viewpoint.. welcome to moa!!!

as to your thinking on that article and the validity of option 3 in thom hartmanns simple article.. here is option 3 -
"The Deadbeat: He’s not only not rich, but he’s badly in debt, and Russian billionaires are among his main creditors."

i can go along with this theory up to a point.. i think where i would quibble is with the main creditors are russians though.. what about the idea he is your typical self serving politician/businessman who is hoping to get a trump tower in st. petersburg for example? or that the russians haven't been catered to in the same degree that the israeli zionists have been - of course trump has been clearly catering to them too! frankly, if i was to say who trump is beholden to - it would be easier to say it was the koch brothers, robert mercer, and if you want to go with a deeper conspiracy theory - the rothchilds who had a front man, can't remember his name - who pulled trump out of debt in the early 80's...here's a 37 minute video if you want to check that out..

why stick it all on russian billionaires? is there are support for that, that i can read about?

i agree with much of @476 tannenhousers post and would like to re-emphasize a part of their post here as i feel the same!~ "your dissent is appreciated!"

i did read thom hartmanns wikipedia page before i made the comment @470, but thanks for the encouragement anyway... for the record, i mostly see wikipedia as a type of soft propaganda website - kind of like i viewed national geographic for many many years, after taking a sociology of the media course way back in the late 70's... i do notice wikipedia isn't asking for a donation anymore.. i suspect they have found some who support the work they do, including gov'ts too!


Posted by: james | Jul 21 2018 2:29 utc | 477

37 minute video here - https://youtu.be/FhTMy9ma2mQ

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2018 2:31 utc | 478

Guerrero 477 " the official opinion of two million Empire professors MIGHT be no more valid
than the expressions of an unhinged shaman living in the material (real) world. "

I believe you erred in saying "MIGHT". Leave that word out and we are in the real world.

Like what you put up here Guerrero.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 21 2018 2:33 utc | 479

jdmckay 474

you give a choice of guardian or cia dot com search. you do this on the comment section of b's thread where he has put forward a non mainstream da da da (cia) view.
Whose view should I look at? rainbow pig liking guardian of the pedophiles, alphabet stew dot com or b?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 21 2018 2:46 utc | 480

Curtis @471: Thanks for link. Especially liked this paragraph by Roberts:

"It has happened many times before. For example, in his history, The First World War, A. J. P. Taylor explained that all efforts to stop the disastrous war that destroyed Europe were blocked by smearing 'as a defeatist, a pacifist, probably a traitor, every advocate of peace, or even of moderation.' As Taylor writes, the 'top hats' wanted the money, and the 'cloth hats' paid for it with their lives."

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 21 2018 3:06 utc | 481

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 20, 2018 8:27:36 PM | 472

"HRC should be charged and that was part of Trump's campaign push. But for some reason the justice dept is going nowhere."

I remind you that when Donald Trump came to the podium to give his victory speech on election night, he was greeted by loud chants of "Lock Her Up!" His first words were telling his fan base to shut up. He told them that was just for the campaign, and that they should all honor the Clintons for their decades of public service and hard work for the country.

A couple days later, he clarified when asked that he wouldn't "hurt the Clintons."

They've been close friends (and it would seem co-conspirators) for decades.

And that's another piece of evidence for why I have come to see the (s)election as a psyop.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 21 2018 3:16 utc | 482

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 20, 2018 9:06:54 PM | 474

"What a different world this would be if Gore was president"

I certainly won't disagree that the Trump Regime is proving disastrous. But I see no reason to believe that a Gore Administration would have made for a much more beautiful world. He was the guy put in charge of "reinventing government" by slashing social programs, funneling tax money to churches and escalating the War on Drugs that led to the huge increase in incarceration and the rise of the private prison industry. He helped sell NAFTA, he promoted the first Anti-Terrorism Act that laid the groundwork fo the USA PATRIOT Act, he was a proud proponent of Clinton's 1033 Program that provided military weapons to local police forces.

Foreign policy? He fully backed the sanctions and weekly bombing campaign against Iraq that led to 1 million deaths, including more than 1/2 million children under age 5. He defended bombing the only pharmaceutical factory in Central Africa, the resultant death toll of which will be forever hidden and unknown.

I for one will never forgive Al Gore for stealing the 2000 election from Ralph Nader - arguably the one person who did more good for this country than any other individual in the previous 1/2 century. Because I have never met anyone with "liberal" or "progressive" or "lefty" values who denies that this country and world would indeed be much better places if we'd had a Nader Administration, starting in 2001, or better still, 1997.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 21 2018 3:29 utc | 483

Curtis@417:

"Russians (like any other country) should know they cannot trust any promises from the US and that any statements made by Trump will be countered by very powerful forces here in the US. It is shameful how the politicians and the media speak with one voice on this."

Vladimir Putin took part in a meeting of ambassadors and permanent representatives of Russia at international organisations and associations, where he outlined the main goals of Russian diplomacy.

7-19-18

To digress from the main subject, I would like to say a few words on a personal note, so to speak.

We see that there are forces in the United States that are willing to sacrifice Russia-US relations to promote their ambitions amid the domestic political strife in America. They are ready to sacrifice the interests of their businesses, which are losing multimillion-dollar contracts and the Russian market in general, as well as jobs in the United States, even though not many, but still there are jobs in place as part of cooperation with Russia. We are talking about tens of thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, of jobs.

They are ready to sacrifice the interests of their allies in Europe and the Middle East, in particular, those of the State of Israel. Among other things, we discussed security at the Golan Heights during the operation in Syria. Apparently, no one is interested in it. They are ready to sacrifice even their own security.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58037

Posted by: pogohere | Jul 21 2018 3:31 utc | 484

Hoarsewhisperer @466: I don't believe that he would simply ignore a link to China ...

Strzok texts show a strong bias for Hillary and against Trump. As I explained @465, which you seem to have missed or ignored:

... the country is not as important as the fact that Comey's "no intent" excuse for not prosecuting Hillary was completely bogus. He could pull that off only because there was no evidence that sensitive info was compromised.
Lynch, Yates, Comey, McCabe seem to have shared the same biases as Strzok (as well as Brennan and Clapper!). By ignoring the info that the server was compromised, the FBI was able to allow Hillary to continue in the race.

With that said. I share Daniel's suspicions @482. This info is being revealed rather late. And that is cause for some skepticism. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 21 2018 3:42 utc | 485

Tannenhouser @ 476

> My question was if you thought Mueller was tacitly admitting the indictment was bunk. < (my bold)

No.

> He obviously doesn't care to actually talk to them otherwise he would have requested it in the indictment, no? <

I am aware of Putin's Treaty citation. I am not aware of it ever being invoked for anything like this. I doubt Mueller ever gave it a thought, its not in his domain (federal) of law. (that's just reality) Perhaps there's a knowledgeable lawyer on International Law that could weigh in?

> Why indict them if he has no real desire to talk to them. <

I don't know. I can think of a few good reasons. If Mueller has something very close to forensic certainty, then having that in the public record may provide congress with motivations (a big "if" with current congress) to get serious about cyber security, and in particular Russian. ***

> Maybe because the indictment's bunk. <

Maybe (cynical view). Maybe not. Or maybe he did it to fuck with you.

> He obviously doesn't care to actually talk to them otherwise he would have requested it in the indictment, no? <

Like I said, I doubt this ever crossed his mind. FWIW, I would be all for it. In fact, in idyllic world I'd be all for a weeks/months long open forum on multiple subjects, outside of political influence, broadcast live here and in Russia, with Putin and some of his top people given an open forum. I'd welcome doing same thing wrt SYRIA, US efforts to constrain Russian oil/gas sales and a whole lot of other "spook" shit both countries do. Like I said, I admire Putin in many ways (he dwarfs Trump in most every character trait that I find important). I think the US public would benefit greatly if they could listen to him, in his own words (he does speak good English ) talking plainly & with opportunity to explain things in detail US public is grossly mis-informed about. Let facts exposed be judgment on our political class' juvenile character. But as (Republican led) Congress demonstrated with immediate response to Helsinki, what you ask for they would not allow. I believe they passed a resolution yesterday, in fact, preventing it.

At risk of being overly verbose, I'll explain myself a little further.

From Russian/Putin POV, I really don't (or wouldn't) blame him/them for doing whatever they could to turn US politics/populace into disabling chaos. If I was in his position, I might do the same thing. Since Glasnost, US has frittered away opportunity after opportunity to make our relationship strong and fruitful for both countries. AFAIC, we couldn't have fucked it up worse. Rebuilding they've done since then in spite of all this, and they deserve a lot of credit.

From US POV however, AFAIC so many things that matter have come of the rails. We're going backwards, almost stuck in quicksand. Unless some very dramatic happens here in fundamental ways, I believe US will become 3rd world country in not too distant future. With so many nuts we've had as politicians, unforeseen circumstances are scary. So I... hope. With that, US populace has been brainwashed with tons of world changing lies. If the tide is to turn, there has to be some kind of "wake up" call and it has to be based on realities. Not OPINIONS, but realities... facts.

Putin (or whoever got/released those emails) and an awful lot more are distractions, and a small piece of the pie. Most people here (US) do not know facts wrt what we've done in ME (especially since Iraq) and the lies, don't even begin to comprehend anatomy of our '08 "financial crisis" that almost bankrupted the world, and a whole lot more.

So on this little issue (Mueller investigation, Clinton emails), I chose to speak up with all these other reasons in mind.

Lastly, comes to mind I might seem contradictory in my enthusiasm for Russia/Putin having open forum with US, clean up all the messes, and establish strong relationship.... AND, my opposition to Trump. With that in mind...

> As to the three reasons Trump met with Putin, might I suggest that as POTUS it behooves him to contact the president of the RF <

I agree it behoves US/RF and the world to "grow up", get real and clean a whole of of things up. I just not only have -0- faith in Trump's gravitas to pull this off, I think he's so fucked up he will make things a whole lot worse. He does not know or comprehend relevant history, his motives are hugely questionable, and he's articulated little or know vision as to why this matters. If he had any of these qualities, he would have made the case to US populace and pounded a brain dead Republican congress in advance of Helsinki and had that (less tan 2 hours?) meeting have some real transparency.

Look how much time Trump spent at Helsinki news conference talking about Hillary's server. :( (and most of what he said about that he didn't get right).

I simply believe Trump is a 2 bit asshole, nothing more. Not even close to being up to what's needed for our times.

> especially when there are a bunch of nutters in Murica <

on that we agree.

> who seem bent on war. <

... and a whole lot of other brain dead insanity.

> VIPS has presented a strong case suggesting it was a leak not a hack. <

I've followed that. I would say they've presented a plausible case. I have strong background in all aspects of computer security (was my business through 2008, I understand this stuff). Bloomberg has a decent summary on this from about a year ago: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-10/why-some-u-s-ex-spies-don-t-buy-the-russia-story

Currently, there's just not enough certainty about this.

(Hope this can be worthwhile and provocative conversation, I have no desire for a pissing contest).

*** From what I know, political cyber war is much more a Russian specialty. They've done it in Western Europe as well. Chinese hacking is more strategic: tech, business plans and such.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 21 2018 3:44 utc | 486

Guerrero @ 477

> I will take exception to this assessment. When Clinton was busy being impeached, Gore's circle launched the attack on Yugoslavia, bombing the bridges over the Danube and turning the Mu'hadin Muslim fighters into the Wahabi good-guys. <

I don't know Gore's role, will take you word. At this stage of my life (63), seen enough wars to be sure now they are all madness.

But there's no question, Gore would never have invaded Iraq. It would never have even surfaced as an option: Sadam had -0- to do with 9/11, and in fact was only secular leader in the region. He'd been trying to catch small Al Qada enclaves in the north for years. Iraq invasion was nothing more then some geo-politial wet dream of a few Likudnik nutters that somehow got control of GWB policy.

> Green economy" "renewable energy" "climate change" In the Third World, these mass-media catch phrases are mysterious. <

I can't speak for much of 3rd world, but WHOLE LOT OF IT this stuff has great meaning. Just look at signatories to Paris accords.

> ¿WHY do "green economy","renewable energy" and "climate change" seem like cartoons?
WHY are these concepts unexpressable in the Nahuatl language? <

I assume your sincerity, you are Nahuatl?

> Call me a contrarian, call me a rebel:
the official opinion of two million Empire professors MIGHT be no more valid
than the expressions of an unhinged shaman living in the material (real) world. <

Well whether they like/know about it or not, they are being profoundly affected by it.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 21 2018 3:58 utc | 487

I don't quite know what to do with a thread that has almost 500 comments in it, but I'll post what I have since it actually does concern the matter at hand, the Helsinki meeting. Two things.

1. In Russia, the most popular TV news show gives the floor to Karen Shakhnazarov for about 10 minutes, and he delivers the most pinpoint analysis of the situation that I've seen anywhere in the world thus far. In the final couple of minutes, the host Vladimir Solovyov gives his own appreciation of the new detente, and proves that he reads Moon of Alabama (!) by restating b's thesis of the three powers, and how they must negotiate.

Shakhnazarov says that Trump is destroying the US empire just as Gorbachev destroyed the USSR. In many ways, no one knew what would follow from Gorbachev's actions, and no one knows what will follow from Trump's. None of us knows. But this is what is happening. The deep state, the establishment - call it by any name - wants to destroy Trump because he is destroying their world.

He says that Trump is fighting for his very life, understanding the lesson of Kennedy, and that in this light the press conference was brilliant. Trump is right to turn to Putin for support, he says. It is unprecedented in world history, he points out, that journalists of the US would actually challenge the two presidents to show that Putin had some dirt on Trump. This was beyond all bounds, but is simply an illustration of what confronts Trump, and what he opposes. And it will get worse. While Trump continues to destroy the new cold war, the provocations from the vested interests will mount.

I recommend the 12 minutes spent on this clip like very few other things I've ever recommended. It's not only brilliant, it explains most of the action, and shatters old paradigms as new ones are created, all in one brief, clear-seeing commentary:
“He Fears For His Life”: President Trump Trying His Best to Not End Up Assassinated Like Kennedy

.

2. Patrick Buchanan may lack the passion of the Russian, but he knows his American. He says the same thing, that Trump is an existential threat to the existing order. He makes a good summary of the state of affairs to date, and concludes with this:

"Trump is threatening the entire U.S. foreign policy establishment with what it fears most — irrelevance.

"For if there is no war on, no war imminent, and no war wanted, what does a War Party do?"

That article at Unz is here: Trump Stands His Ground on Putin

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 21 2018 3:59 utc | 488

@ grieved
You have not read the last few open threads ?... plus Mercouris at duran.. We moved back to the great power game around the time of the US election then inauguration. The great power game is perhaps a safer world though the current one includes zionism so not altogether pragmatic great game. b is the first to do a write up on the new world.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 21 2018 4:21 utc | 489

@487 grieved.. thanks for that 12 minute talk from the russia dude.. i thought it was very good and others would enjoy watching it, including jdmckay.. it confirms many of the thoughts and views that have been expressed previously, but coming from a russian is particularly enlightening.. if they can see this, then i think we are on the right track in recognizing the significance of where we are now and the possibilities and danger of what lies ahead.. thanks grieved!

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2018 4:29 utc | 490

@ Grieved with the link to the Russian political analysts

Thanks for that. It certainly supports b's posting and fits with what we have been discussing here for months...the world is changing before ours eyes or behind the scenes and something will come out soon.

It bothers me that the values driving the need for the multi-polar world are not broached in public in any way....sigh
Can humans not handle the truth about the social contract they live under?
Will us barflies only hear about the results of a Bretton Woods type of meeting long after it has occurred?

I am an eternal optimist that believes that any change to the decision making structure at the top of this heap we call civilization is bound to be an improvement.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21 2018 4:49 utc | 491

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 20, 2018 5:36:46 PM | 465
(& #484)(Hillary emails)

I did miss your 465 and you're correct in saying the China theory wasn't PL's and was passed to him through an insider. I omitted that minor(?) detail in the interests of brevity.
However (and luckily for HW), as of July 19 the theory is now PL's... he has referred to the crux of his latest contribution to Truth, Justice, and The American email Fiasco as Chinagate - not Hillarygate:-)

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 21 2018 5:29 utc | 492

jdmckay:

Knowing fullwell I'm no longer part of the herd around here, sure I'll be slammed.

Playing the victim while smearing MoA. What a pro.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Once again:

You defended Hillary's use of an email server in fall 2015 with unparalleled gusto and determination. That meshed so very well with Hillary's strategy to delay/defray criticism until it was too late for the Democratic Party to choose someone else.

You say that you're not a Clinton supporter. But you're not angry at Hillary's games. You're not angry that she was a deeply flawed candidate that colluded with the DNC against Sanders (despite writing like a progressive). And, you're not concerned at all that there may have been a conspiracy to help her evade prosecution (due to her use of a private email server). You just shrug it all off @337:

I just didn't think it [Hillary's private email server] was that big a deal & still don't.
Why is someone that has NO CONCERN WHATSOEVER for a possible national security breach by Hillary now SO VERY CONCERNED about amorphous Russian influence on Trump?

Occam's Razor: You are a Hillary partisan.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 21 2018 5:36 utc | 493

james @ 478

> as to your thinking on that article and the validity of option 3 in thom hartmanns simple article.. here is option 3 -
"The Deadbeat: He’s not only not rich, but he’s badly in debt, and Russian billionaires are among his main creditors."

i can go along with this theory up to a point.. i think where i would quibble is with the main creditors are russians though.. what about the idea he is your typical self serving politician/businessman who is hoping to get a trump tower in st. petersburg for example? <

Corruption is corruption. From all I've been able to gather, Trump is up to his ass with Russian mob. Hartmann's article only touches on a small part. And like I said, he's screwed a lot of people along the way with fraud and non-payment of legitimate services. (you can Google it). And "pussy grabbing"/endless womanizing, and daily tweets on our News every day attacking almost anybody but is close knit cabal. Even going after a few Football players for taking a knee during the National Anthem to protest killing of innocent black folks by police, a reality that only hardened ass holes can deny. Trump calls these football players "Sons of bitches", and FOX News eats it up.

I think he's a tramp.

> or that the russians haven't been catered to in the same degree that the israeli zionists have been - of course trump has been clearly catering to them too! <

With all due respect, I think you are unintentionally diffusing issues. First, Trump's money foibles stand on their own. And it's pretty dirty AFAIC. I learned the consequences of dealing with people like him 35 years ago, their word means nothing. They'll pick your pocket and laugh in your face about it.

2ndly, Israeli/Zionist/Likudnik "beholdenness" is a whole other deal & IMO a different kind of danger. They are more sophisticated, ruthless, very very smart, relentless and completely operate in the shadows. GW Bush's entire ME policy was dictated by those guys in his admin. I hate it, and honestly do not know or understand how they keep doing it. I think they're evil.

Are you familiar with USS Liberty incident, and what that was all about (expanding into Golan Heights)?

Trump's Son in law Kushner as close ties to top level Israel politicians, and is "architect" of as of yet utterly secret US "Peace plan" proposal, of which Kushner has laid groundwork with moving US embassy to Jerusalem and giving free pass to Israel's recent (I'll call it) slaughter of Palestinians with rocks protesting it. Israel formalized expansion into disputed territory this week.

Thanks Jared. Are you aware of Jared's own questionable financial dealings, getting financing for his failing 666 5th ave. from the United Emirates, shortly after endorsing the Quatar blockade and they revoked their financing offer? Maybe a little suspicious? And for this, Netanyahu says Kushner is "uniquely qualified" to broker their "peace deal" with the Palestinans. Lovely.

Looks to me like this runs in the family.

So AFAIC, the dirty Russian mob money is one thing. This Israel stuff is AND... double dose. Not (with all due respect) a comparison/contrast, as you pofer it. And it all has profound consequences. US has laws requiring these top level White House employs divest of "interests" that can be influenced/profited by stuff like this. Trump, family and some of his cabinet have evaded this requirement and FOX defended it. And they aren't just profiting, but hard to see how these "benefits" aren't molding policy as well.

> frankly, if i was to say who trump is beholden to - it would be easier to say it was the koch brothers, robert mercer, and if you want to go with a deeper conspiracy theory - the rothchilds who had a front man, can't remember his name - who pulled trump out of debt in the early 80's...here's a 37 minute video if you want to check that out.. <

Ahhh... in my view, you have added another AND. I am not so sure he is beholden to Kochs. What he has done, however, is ceded almost entirely his admin's top level staffing to the Federalist Society and CATO. This is pretty well documented, and exactly what happened in GWB admin. It's those guys that are in bed with the Kochs.

I don't know about the Rothchilds.

WRT the Mercers, I can't say I'm close to expert. What I do know is Mercer funded Bannon/Breibart which drove cultivated his base, and financed Cambridge Analytica which I have read a lot about. That's a whole other story, and AFAIC another slice of the voter manipulation effort. Wouldn't be surprised if Mueller has done a lot of work on this. They did some pretty devious stuff.

> why stick it all on russian billionaires? is there are support for that, that i can read about? <

AFAIK, currently only very strong circumstantial evidence. Trump still has never released tax returns. We have Don (son) Trump's statement they have been entirely reliant on Russian $$ since (from memory) around '08, coincidentally about the same time Trump transitioned from buying everything with debt to (after bankruptcy) paying 100's of millions, repeatedly, in cash. Strong evidence his Scotland golf club failing, BTW.

However, we know Mueller has subpoenaed substantial bank records so from my POV we'll have to wait until he completes his investigation.

> i agree with much of @476 tannenhousers post and would like to re-emphasize a part of their post here as i feel the same!~ "your dissent is appreciated!" <

Thanks, appreciated. I only post here a few times a year anymore, got slammed pretty good during elections. Was a regular for a decade in the early (Billmon) days.

> i did read thom hartmanns wikipedia page before i made the comment @470, but thanks for the encouragement anyway... for the record, i mostly see wikipedia as a type of soft propaganda website - <

FWIW, wikipedia Hartmann bio is accurate. I like Thom, and have looked into his background. He's started and built (at least) 3 successful businesses (all different) from scratch. His business endeavor for battered/disadvantaged kids was very successful, used as a model for others and he received awards. I like that. And he was one of several people who conceived of and started Air America (largely in response, then, to a dominant Rush Limbaugh). A lot of interesting books (I've read 3). Just an interesting, driven and accomplished guy who's walked his talk AFAIC. In that regard, sort of an anti-Trump.

Lastly, Travel agency he built in Atlanta was quite successful. Of not to me, when he & wife decided to move on his employees wanted to buy it but could not afford to. Thom set up financing for them, and sold it for considerably less then it was worth. It has remained successful. Personally, I take not of little things like that. I like and respect people who leave those they associate with better off, regardless of the endeavor.

Posted by: jdmckay | Jul 21 2018 5:37 utc | 494

Grieved

Shakhnazarov says that Trump is destroying the US empire just as Gorbachev destroyed the USSR.

I disagree. Don't confuse structural changes with destroying.

Trump is fighting for his very life, understanding the lesson of Kennedy ...

I see Trump as a good servant to the elite (like Obama) - tax cuts, increased military spending, support for Israel & Saudi Arabia, etc. So I don't think his life is in danger. IMO Mueller investigation and anti-Trump rhetoric is a smoke screen.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 21 2018 5:57 utc | 495

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21, 2018 12:49:39 AM | 490


"Will us barflies only hear about the results of a Bretton Woods type of meeting long after it has occurred?"

Yes.

Or as Karl Rove is reported having said:

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Unless we find a way to take the reins of Empire, "that's how things will sort out."

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 21 2018 6:10 utc | 496

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 21, 2018 1:57:32 AM | 494

"Shakhnazarov says that Trump is destroying the US empire just as Gorbachev destroyed the USSR."

I disagree. Don't confuse structural changes with destroying.

That's all Gorbachev thought he was doing, launching structural changes. He didn't think he was helping to destroy anything.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 21 2018 6:38 utc | 497

Grieved
"and shatters old paradigms as new ones are created"

The creation of the new paradigms/new realities are what we must judiciously study.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 21 2018 7:53 utc | 498

A lot of comments to wade through here, so apologies if someone else noted that b and Moon of Alabama got a nice shout out yesterday from the always incisive and right on Diana Johnstone, in her Global Research piece, Donald Trump was Elected by Russia? Mass Dementia in the Western Establishment.

This demented chorus on “Russian hacking” prevented mainstream media from even doing their job. Not even mentioning, much less analyzing, any of the real issues at the summit. To find analysis, one must go on line, away from the official fake news to independent reporting. For example, “the Moon of Alabama” site offers an intelligent interpretation of the Trump strategy, which sounds infinitely more plausible than “the story”. In short, Trump is trying to woo Russia away from China, in a reverse version of Kissinger’s strategy forty years ago to woo China away from Russia, thus avoiding a continental alliance against the United States. This may not work because the United States has proven so untrustworthy that the cautious Russians are highly unlikely to abandon their alliance with China for shadows. But it makes perfect sense as an explanation of Trump’s policy, unlike the caterwauling we’ve been hearing from Senators and talking heads on CNN.

Johnstone used to appear regularly at Counterpunch but not lately. That site, honorably leftist in many ways but long afflicted with identity politics irrationality, now also has a major case of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 21 2018 13:08 utc | 499

Johnstone used to appear regularly at Counterpunch but not lately. That site, honorably leftist in many ways but long afflicted with identity politics irrationality, now also has a major case of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 21, 2018 9:08:29 AM | 498

Counterpunch publishes article with some (smallish) diversity of views, my pet peeve is that the common features of these articles is that they are sketchily researched and to rhetorical. Concerning Trump, what I could see the current critiques are justified. like nothing about election manipulation (in Counterpunch universe, that would be like an accusation of stripping a lady of her virginity after her 30 year long carrier in a brothel, one can contemplate theft of services as a pertinent crime). But there is an article about Trump absurdly haranguing hapless Europeans for their meager military spending. They should double their health care prices too, to match USA!

In the meantime, USA could do well by going for 2% GDP as the military budget, and if the allies fail to match, going down to 1% (and decreasing health care costs would not be stupid either, medical robbery complex grosses more than double of MIC). And focus on pressing needs: do we have sufficient military bases in Alaska to defend oil fields that are vulnerable to the growing Russian Arctic fleet? If we cannot afford it, perhaps we should hang "for sale" sign. [this is not serious, repeat, the last two sentences are not serious.]

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 21 2018 16:25 utc | 500

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