Hawks Renew Their Attacks On North Korea Talks
There are new attempts underway to sabotage the deal U.S. President Trump made with North Korea's Chairman Kim Jong-Un. These attacks are based on misleading interpretations of the agreements that were made between the two leaders.
Duyeon Kim, a fellow of the Center for a New American Security based in Seoul, suggests in Foreign Policy to ignore the agreed upon sequencing of a. the establishment new US-DPRK relations, b. a peace agreements and c. denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
Duyeon Kim argues:
[T]he issue is the order of agreed points, which has caused confusion and misinterpretation. For the first time in the history of negotiations, Washington essentially accepted, whether blindly or wittingly, Pyongyang’s wish list on sequencing: 1) normalization of bilateral relations, 2) establishment of a peace regime on the Korean Peninsula, and then 3) “complete denuclearization.” ...
This is not "Pyongyang’s wish list". North Korea's "wish list" did not include denuclearization talks. The listed content of those steps and their sequencing was negotiated and agreed upon by all parties. The leaders of North Korea, South Korea and the United States signed on to them. For some undisclosed reason Duyeon Kim wants to change that:
In theory, the peace process and denuclearization process could proceed simultaneously. The practical reality, however, is potentially falling into Pyongyang’s trap. Making peace too soon could produce an economically vibrant North Korean state armed with nuclear weapons and normal relations with the United States. Serious progress on nuclear dismantlement should be achieved before formal discussions commence on a peace treaty. It will take skill and tact from Pompeo’s negotiating team to navigate the pitfalls and landmines along this twisting route.
No" skill and tact" will allow Pompeo to change the sequence that was agreed upon. It would breaks both agreements, the April Panmunjom Declaration between South and North Korea, and the June Singapore Statement signed by Donald Trump and Kim Jong-Un.
Duyeon Kim knows this well but openly argues to follow such a path. Why?
What is so bad with an economically vibrant North Korean state that has normal relations with the United States? Such a state, one hopes, would over time feel secure enough to get rid of its expensive nuclear determent. A threatened and insecure North Korea will certainly never do such. So what is the alternative to the agreed upon process? Duyeon Kim does not provide one.
The Washington Post joins other publications in re-upping the scare about North Korea. It headlines: U.S. spy agencies: North Korea is working on new missiles:
U.S. spy agencies are seeing signs that North Korea is constructing new missiles at a factory that produced the country’s first intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of reaching the United States, according to officials familiar with the intelligence.
...
The reports about new missile construction come after recent revelations about a suspected uranium-enrichment facility, called Kangson, that North Korea is operating in secret.
Duh. No one who followed the issue expected North Korea to stop expanding its still small nuclear determent. There is no public commitment or agreement that says it would do so.
The Washington Post writers acknowledge that. But only after much scary phrased secretive musing and way down in the seventeenth(!) paragraph:
Several U.S. officials and private analysts said the continued activity inside North Korea’s weapons complex is not surprising, given that Kim made no public promise at the summit to halt work at the scores of nuclear and missile facilities scattered around the country. The North Koreans “never agreed to give up their nuclear program,” said Ken Gause, a North Korea expert at the Center for Naval Analysis. And it is foolish to expect that they would do so at the outset of talks, he said.
The "officials" who leak those bits over continued missile building to the Washington Post authors also add a rumor that later will be used to demand a stringent verification regime. Something North Korea is likely to reject:
[S]enior North Korean officials have discussed their intention to deceive Washington about the number of nuclear warheads and missiles they have, as well as the types and numbers of facilities, and to rebuff international inspectors, according to intelligence gathered by U.S. agencies. Their strategy includes potentially asserting that they have fully denuclearized by declaring and disposing of 20 warheads while retaining dozens more.
U.S. intelligence on North Korea is notoriously bad. The North Korean missile launches and nuclear tests last year were only detected when they were imminent. It is unlikely that U.S. spy services know what senior North Korean official "discuss" about "potentially asserting" something. The U.S. services probably "gathered" that through South Korea's spy service. But whatever South Korean agencies say about North Korea is colored by their traditionally very hawkish position. They pay up to $860,000 to those North Korean defectors who make up the most scary stories. Such stories are often false.
To insert these rumors allows hardliners like National Security Advisor John Bolton to later demand that inspectors get free reign within North Korea to search under Kim Jong-Un's bed for non existing nukes. Bolton may even dream of joining the WMD hunt.
bigger
The Post and others are Weaving a Narrative of North Korean Deception. It is based on inaccurate and misleading reporting of what North Korea signed up to. North Korea is known to stick to the letters of its agreements. In the past it was the U.S. that was abrogating them.
The Singapore Statement by Donald Trump and Kim Jong-Un is clear in its content and sequencing. First come new relations, likely in the form of opening embassies in each others country. Then come negotiations over a peace treaty that will replace the current armistice agreement and finally end the Korea War. Only after that comes denuclearization.
North Korea has already fulfilled several side-commitments. It continues to honor a nuclear and missile test moratorium, it blew up its nuclear test tunnel and dismantled a large missile engine test stand at Sohae. It handed over the remains of U.S. soldiers. It is now expecting that the U.S. demonstrates its good will. The Trump administration should lift some sanctions and starts the talks about the opening of embassies.
Changing the agreed upon agenda will not work. If the U.S. goes back on the words its president signed, North Korea will re-up its test program and again demonstrate its expanding capabilities. China, Russia and South Korea have already lifted some of their sanctions on North Korea. Those sanctions will not come back if its U.S. side that does not fulfill its obligations.
The U.S. will then have no leverage left to bring a nuclear armed North Korea to the negotiating table.
Posted by b on July 31, 2018 at 19:19 UTC | Permalink
As MOA readers probably know, the recurring corporate mass-media skepticism towards Trump and his works-- especially his would-be peace initiatives-- and abiding fearful distrust of the designated "Axis of Evil" is on display in another "be very afraid" infoganda salvo.
I'm holding my nose in order to furnish a representative link; a search will yield many more like it. The CIA consent-manufactory popularly known as "The Washington Post" just published this breathless alarm call:
U.S. spy agencies: North Korea is working on new missiles
The hawks can criticize and condemn developments based on a pair of symmetrical premises: the NK situation is intolerably catastrophic because 1) Trump is evil, and is always and forever up to no geopolitical good, and 2) NK's government is evil, too.
I'm using "evil" generically, to include "grossly incompetent", "predatory", "malevolent", etc.
This kind of "villain rotation" allows for greater range and flexibility in the Chicken Little Division of the Total Trump Resistance.
Posted by: Ort | Jul 31 2018 19:39 utc | 2
Please delete the preceding post, which stupidly cites the same article in B.'s post. I meant to pick another one, but used the same link I'd just followed from B's post.
This one should be deleted too. Sorry!
Posted by: Ort | Jul 31 2018 19:42 utc | 3
The USA simply wont keep to the agreement. They never do and no doubt Kim and the political/military leadership in NK and SK fully recognise that fact. Relationships with the USA are premised world wide on betrayal of any agreement. The publications listed by b are mouthpieces of hawks and yankee propaganda. Time for Trump to put up or shut up on the normalising of relations and public rebuttal of the hawk fantasy mongers.
For South Korea, Russia and China, this is Trumps hurdle to jump. He will skirt round it like a snake. Trump and his USA has no intention of anything else and no vision of what constitutes a better world. Hopefully SK and NK have a solid contingency plan to go forward with.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 31 2018 19:56 utc | 4
Peace is War, everyone (in the deep state) knows that. Peace is a threat to the military industrial complex! We must stamp out this demonic force before it has a chance to undermine our American way of life!
Posted by: worldblee | Jul 31 2018 20:03 utc | 5
"U.S. spy agencies are seeing signs that North Korea is constructing new missiles at a factory that produced the country’s first intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of reaching the United States, according to officials familiar with the intelligence. "
And everyone knows these agencies NEVER lie,,, Trump even said so.
So it's un-American to even think it! :)
Good post b....
Posted by: ken | Jul 31 2018 20:07 utc | 6
1
When the End of Days comes, it will hit Health and Human Services like a ton of bricks.
Only the fraudulent, onerous, odious, usurious, $21,500 B interest-only ... FOREVER ... National Debt will abide, together with its MIC Pentagon Global Police State enforcers.
E pluribus now get back to work! Your 3Q18 tranche of $1T tithe-tribute is coming due.
Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 31 2018 20:07 utc | 7
Either Trump has set a new standard for double dealing or he is a unable to control members of his cabinet who see their tasks as going behind his back to reshape foreign policy. If heads don't roll soon, then it is most likely the former.
Posted by: CDWaller | Jul 31 2018 20:49 utc | 8
Must agree that the interest being served by this bullshit is the Outlaw US Empire's MIC and its associated "intel" agencies. Any sixth-grader reading the texts of the two agreements could then tell you the articles cited are grossly obvious Fake News published by BigLie Media. And those articles are aimed directly at the domestic audience, and here's why:
Any attempt at MAGA requires massive cuts to the War and Empire budget on the order of 75%+, which would essentially kill numerous weapons making companies outright and cull great numbers of unnecessary and massively overpaid "executives." No more multi-million dollar "bonuses," no more massive amounts of "campaign contributions" flowing to elected officials at all levels of government. An end to the long term ongoing corrupting of American politics. All of which is totally in the interest of 99.9% of America's populace, and against the remaining @320,000. That's why The Washington Post and Foreign Policy commissioned the writing of those articles and the many others made to support the latest Big Lie.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 31 2018 21:00 utc | 9
By 22 November 1950, Eight Army units in jump-off positios were nearly all in place
for the 24 November attack. On the army right, the ROK II Corp had reached its line
of departure on November 21st. Tell me, how did that USA-North Korea battle turn out?
thanks b... title of your article could just as easily be "Paid Hacks Renew Their Attacks" - doesn't matter what country is being targeted.. the paid hacks work for the military/financial complex...that is what the usa msm has come down to 2018...
Posted by: james | Jul 31 2018 21:11 utc | 11
policy briefing today from usa state dept..many of the questions revolve around north korea..
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/07/284840.htm
Posted by: james | Jul 31 2018 21:23 utc | 12
b. please update us on your thoughts on a possible attack on Iran. It is definitely in the air. Trump may see it as the only way to get to the end of his presidency in 2020 which is all he really cares about at this stage. A Gulf of Tonkin type thing would be obligatory given the lack of appetite among the US public. So any guesses as to the form it would take?
Posted by: Lochearn | Jul 31 2018 22:04 utc | 13
Alastair Crooke's most recent article would say that this effort is a further attempt to counteract any attempt by Trump at diplomacy, which as is pointed out provides the only alternative to an actual shooting war beyond the already ongoing Hybrid Third World War. Unfortunately, the only way out of this as Crooke sees it is via a massive cultural change in the US Congress thanks to this November's elections--an unrealistic hope, IMO.
I wonder what that same BigLie Media will say about Iran's new condition for talks with Trump: He must rejoin JCPOA prior to talks of any sort. The Outlaw US Empire's Dictat no longer works as the entire balance of International Relations is being reconfigured:
"The Johannesburg Declaration is unmistakable: 'We recognize that the multilateral trading system is facing unprecedented challenges. We underscore the importance of an open world economy....'
"In a not too veiled allusion to the Trump administration’s unilateral pullout from the Iran nuclear deal (JCPOA), Xi called all parties to 'abide by international law and basic norms governing international relations and to settle disputes through dialogue and differences through consultation,' adding that the BRICS are inevitably working for 'a new type of international relations.'"
Unfortunately, BigLie Media refuses to publish such words since they show an alternative's being formed that the Outlaw US Empire can't do very much about. But it's not just BigLie Media's attempts that're failures; Trumps own policy initiatives are also failing and a genuine Populist response is growing that will soon be out of Duopoly control and will seriously challenge for power in 2020.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 31 2018 22:13 utc | 14
As Putin has said, the US is not agreement capable. So long as its war policy objectives are constantly blocked, it is just a matter of waiting for the US to tear itself apart. There will never be any sort of US deal with NK, same as there never was a US deal with Iran. Unless an agreement by a US president is passed into law by the congress, anything a president signs is not worth the paper it is written on.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 31 2018 22:29 utc | 15
I may be reading too much in this, but -- does anybody have a take on the phrasing of "US spy agencies" used here, instead of the more mature sounding(?) or at least more regularly used (imho) "US intelligence"?
Posted by: bjd | Jul 31 2018 23:23 utc | 16
@Peter AU (15)
You've got several titles of hit records there... ;-)
Posted by: bjd | Jul 31 2018 23:26 utc | 17
I'm still of the opinion that most of what's going on with the war talk, is just that, war talk. Keeping the rubes attention while dismantling the social safety net.
Posted by: ben | Jul 31 2018 23:33 utc | 18
@karlof1 (14)
From the interview with Kissinger, this, by the interviewer struck me (talking about the meeting between Trump and Putin) "and a betrayal of US intelligence claims", followed by the quote "open treason".
Apparently these days, among acts that constitute treason, is the betrayal of US intelligence claims.
Now there's something that is stunning.
Posted by: bjd | Jul 31 2018 23:36 utc | 19
Peter AU 1 @15--
The UN Charter was signed by Truman and ratified by Congress to become an integral part of The Law of the Land, yet it's been violated in a serial manner ever since that signing, first by Truman himself. Who was it that said the US Constitution was no more than a piece of paper? W Bush wasn't the first to treat The Constitution in that manner. I believe it was the Federalists who did so first not soon after it was put into force. The USA's been the Outlaw US Empire since its inception when it comes to questions of law--international or domestic--and it will remain so until it's properly disciplined or disintegrates
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 1 2018 0:00 utc | 20
"U.S. spy agencies are seeing signs that North Korea is constructing new missiles..."
Most reliable methods are used, of course. An ancient Roman method was to check auspices, i.e. signs revealed by the flight patterns of birds. A more modern variant was presented to the United Nations by Colin Powell who performed divinations in front of the most august forum on the planet by interpreting movements of trucks. According to Secretary Powell, they revealed the manufacture of chemical weapons.
Even Romans, with their stricter rules, were not immune to biased interpretation of signs. A quote from Wikipedia:
The interpretation of signs was vast and complex, and magistrates devised protective tricks to avoid being paralysed by negative signs.[33] Against the negative auspicia oblativa the admitted procedures included:
actively avoiding seeing them
repudiare – refuse them through an interpretative sleight of hands
non observare – by assuming one had not paid attention to them
etc. etc.
And what about contemporary agencies that do not posses the strict Roman rules?
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 1 2018 0:06 utc | 21
bjd @19--
Someone wrote or said telling the truth at certain times is revolutionary, which might be construed as an act of treason. IMO, the great majority of those involved in the Outlaw US Empire's government are treasonous and numerous of its acts at all levels are unconstitutional--and I'm not even a Libertarian. But as I was discussing with my daughter, Hillary Clinton openly confessed to committing a felony bordering on treason with her use of an unsecured server while Sec Of State, yet she's not been arrested for that gross crime. The utter corruption of people within and partnering with government is off-the-charts, ethical and moral conduct is no longer a Western Value--and not just within the Outlaw US Empire.
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 1 2018 0:10 utc | 22
What strikes me about this development:
NK is seen by USA as being sheltered by China. And China is seen as the country that is the #1 strategic threat to USA.
Iran is MUCH more likely to be a target right now than NK. I don't think any one can question that neocons and Zionists see action against Iran as the over-riding priority.
China's support for Iran means that China is a secondary target. Some might say that China is a primary target if Iran is used as the anvil to split the alliance between Russia and China.
Simmering tensions with NK allows USA/MSM to whip up anti-China sentiment when the time comes.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 1 2018 0:20 utc | 23
BJD @ 16:
Wikipedia definition of intelligence agencies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_agency
"An intelligence agency is a government agency responsible for the collection, analysis, and exploitation of information in support of law enforcement, national security, military, and foreign policy objectives ...
Means of information gathering are both overt and covert and may include espionage, communication interception, [crypto-analysis], cooperation with other institutions, and evaluation of public sources. The assembly and propagation of this information is known as intelligence analysis or intelligence assessment ..."
Espionage / spying is just one tool of gathering information so calling intelligence agencies "spy agencies" misrepresents what these organisations actually do. Depending on the context, the misrepresentation may be just sloppiness (as in The Washington Post example B gives) or deliberate (as when people continually refer to the Russian President as an ex-KGB spy even though the work he did in East Germany in the 1980s was mostly pen-pushing and paper-shuffling).
Posted by: Jen | Aug 1 2018 0:25 utc | 24
from the daily propaganda usa press briefing https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2018/07/284841.htm
" QUESTION: There was a report in The Washington Post last night that North Korea is moving ahead on production of intercontinental ballistic missiles, but that’s also been confirmed through some satellite images showing this site is still active. I wonder if you had any reaction to that, but specifically, do you believe that them continuing to build the ICBMs would violate the joint declaration from Singapore?
MS NAUERT: Yeah. What we’re going on is the commitment that Chairman Kim made to our President, and that is the commitment to denuclearize, and that is something that we certainly anticipate, that he will hold up his end of the bargain and his commitment on that. In terms of that specific report, I’ve seen it. We’re all very well aware of that report. That would fall under an intelligence matter, which is just something I’m not going to be able to get into.
While we’re talking about North Korea, I’d like to highlight something that’s taking place tomorrow, and tomorrow will be the repatriation ceremony for the remains of fallen U.S. service members from many years ago. That’ll take place I think about a few hours from now at Osan Air Base, and the State Department will be represented there and we’re looking forward to being a part of that. While we are on this topic of conversation, I would just like to reiterate once again that we owe a profound debt of gratitude to those American service members who gave their lives in service to their country so long ago. We are working diligently to bring them home. Their sacrifices and their lives have not been forgotten and we’re pleased to be able to have representation at that.
We see that as Chairman Kim fulfilling part of the commitment that he made to the President to return the remains of our fallen service members. That’s a commitment that he made at the Singapore summit, and so I just wanted to mention that as well.
I’d also like to highlight something that did not get reported, and the fact is that the United States Government did not pay for the repatriation of those remains. There was a lot of speculation; there was some misreporting that the U.S. Government was paying for those remains. I just want to make it clear here that North Korea did not ask for any money nor did we offer any money for the remains of those fallen Americans."
Posted by: james | Aug 1 2018 0:26 utc | 25
Nauert's answers to reporters were interesting. Looks like Trump admin definitely want to end the WWII cold war era hangovers.
Obama's move against China was a military position in the Asia pacific looking at a naval siege and the TPP as an economic move, neither of which would have worked. Trump wants to re-position the US military to cut China's energy supplies. Middle East, Africa, South America. All the military tied up around SK and Japan are doing nothing towards cutting China's energy supply.
I see three Russian journalists have been killed in Africa when looking into private military operations. As far as I know it is the US using the mercenary contractors in Africa.
https://www.rt.com/news/434757-russian-journalists-killed-central-africa/
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 1 2018 0:47 utc | 26
I've seen some pointing to Trump's deal with NK as a template for Iran.
This is important. Very likely a head-fake (I believe USA is much more serious about conflict with Iran than with NK).
Essentially, they argue that Trump will ultimately go easy on Iran to reach a deal that he can tout for political purposes (and ego-stroking).
This plays well with the anti-Trump crowd who already see Trump as a self-centered buffoon. Naturally, this view also (conveniently) reinforces the (mistaken) belief that the office of the Presidency is held hostage to the whims and warts of the current office holder.
With Trump (as with Obama) the establishment has set up competing narratives that mask true intentions.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 1 2018 0:55 utc | 27
Jr @ 27 said:"With Trump (as with Obama) the establishment has set up competing narratives that mask true intentions."
Agreed, but, hearing all this talk about 8/1/18 being the witching hour for an attack on Iran, if true, I think, if they attack anyone, It'll be a smaller target, perhaps justified by some kind of false flag incident.
I continue to think their domestic thievery is first on the agenda.
We'll see shortly.....
Posted by: ben | Aug 1 2018 1:11 utc | 28
Crikey!
An article written by a moron who no-one has ever heard of, and is too lazy to read a text he's writing about, tells me Trump's an idiot?
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 1 2018 3:50 utc | 29
It's been clear to me that both Kim and Donald have a show-business background. But seriously, North Korea cannot just give up its nukes. It really seems absurd to imagine that that could happen.
Iran is different, but it would be seriously self-harmful for the USSA to attack Iran. I am afraid it would cause instant Western economic collapse. What if Iran simply destroyed all of Saudi Arabia's oil rigs? Never mind blocking the giant tankers!
The MIC's need for perma-war looks quite obvious. Sort of like "job security" on steroids. The newest fad seems to be lots and lots of special forces. It's just as if most present-day kids have been groomed for that role. What happens when they come home? They will protect the war profiteers. What a nice package. Who has been paying for all this? These war profiteers obviously view the rest of us as completely expendable. And Trump must propitiate them all or else.
These neocons are insane in the most dangerous way possible. And the rest of us mostly despise them. But the population is awakening to the danger very slowly.
Posted by: blues | Aug 1 2018 4:31 utc | 30
The unilateral, illegal, US exit from the Iran nuclear deal means no country will ever deal seriously with the US again. It can be changed at a whim of an incoming president or a change of congressional balance. What a joke the west has become.
Posted by: cdvision | Aug 1 2018 7:25 utc | 31
Ort @ 2:
If Trump is so interested in peace with anyone, why did he bring Pompeo and Bolton into the inner circle? Those guys are such anti-peace neocons they make Satan look like a garden gnome. Why has he increased the number of troops abroad by a third more than under Obama (official Pentagon troops, not counting the mercenaries and CIA/special forces covert ops people)? Why did he increase the Pentagon budget? Why is he sending arms to Saudi Arabia and those neo-Nazis in Ukraine?
Karlof1 @ 9:
Kind of same as what I said to Ort; if Trump is interested in MAGA (a stupid trope I hate, BTW), why in the hell did he agree to increase the Pentagon budget so much? Why does he incessantly talk about increasing military power and resources and selling more arms across the globe? Why does he keep cutting the tax rates on the wealthy and gleefully talk about going after SS and Medicare? Where's the infrastructure spending (no, building a dumbass wall on the border is not infrastructure)? Oh, yeah, can't have that because he freaking cut taxes by trillions of bucks for the rich.
Obama sucked and didn't even try to keep his promises, but he kept lying about what he was doing and fooled a lot of people up to this day. The difference between him and Trump is that now, one year in, Trump is totally open about what his goals are and a lot of people seem to think he doesn't really mean THAT part of what he says and does. Geez, the guy is destroying the environment, raising our cost of living on everything with his retarded tariffs, giving all the money to the wealthy, and threatening multiple countries with nuclear armageddon. He's telling us who he is. I hear him loud and clear.
Posted by: teri | Aug 1 2018 8:37 utc | 32
It is seriously disappointing to read such uniformed or misguided comments, the very idea that Trump is anything but a Zionist troll working FOR the deep state and receiving false criticisms from the complicit media is ludicrous. THIS IS A SHOW, THEATER FOR THE DIM WITTED. I listened to Trump's speech about the "terrors of Shia Law", as he stopped migration from nation WE WERE DESTROYING!(Of course behind the scenes Trump has done little to nothing to stop the flow of Latinos) And even though Trump is the one who keeps bringing on these Zionist Trolls like Pompeo and Bolton, these facts are lost of the so called Trump tards. Trump and Clinton are both Zionist puppets, and all this Russiaphobia is nothing but a smoke screen for Trump's Zionist actions. Israel controls our elections, NOT RUSSIA.
Posted by: tjm | Aug 1 2018 10:58 utc | 33
Teri @32 & tjm@ 33
Wow and wow again ! Yeah I like all of that,yee ha lets go, let roll n kick ass!
That right there is what we call reality, now some folk may have forgotten what reality looks like, well that's it. We can think it meens self interest but it does not ( sorry)
My comment here is not aimed at eny one on this site ! A finer body of folk you will not find.
To clarify points i'v made recently re USA uk such as taking them down and there over, l need to qualify by saying that when we distroy the brutal curupt regimes, we can replace them with a piece loving fair trading alternative and so it's not me that is treasonous but your leaders.
I suggest we try a thing they call democracy!!
In a country of 300 million you can't tell me you can't find a single decent person with morals and integrity!!!
Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 1 2018 11:44 utc | 34
A glimpse of the 'enemy'
https://off-guardian.org/2018/07/30/the-faces-of-north-korea/
Posted by: John | Aug 1 2018 12:03 utc | 35
"It is seriously disappointing to read such uniformed or misguided comments, the very idea that Trump is anything but a Zionist troll working FOR the deep state and receiving false criticisms from the complicit media is ludicrous." tjm | Aug 1, 2018 6:58:23 AM
Nothing disappointing here, Trump is not easy to categorize. In a larger picture, "deep state" does not seem to be a hierarchical entity, it has some Borg characteristic based on Pavlovian principles. For example, when our son was few months old we went for winter brake in Florida Keys and we got a nice room with a marble floor. Until that time, our son had a habit of displaying displeasure by banging his head on the floor -- a sensible approach when you crawl around on a wall-to-wall carpet and you cannot speak. To our surprise, (1) he did not try it even once on the stone floor (2) he never tried it again. Our public figure and their more secretive colleagues operate similarly. E.g. when Bill Clinton made a stab on being Middle East peace maker, Hillary played a gracious host to Arafat's wife and got huge flack from tabloid press and lasting enmity from more reptilian elements of Zionist milieu, and she never tried to be visibly treating Palestinians as humans again. A collection of shocks (wow! the floor can be hard! very hard!) accumulates and we get Borg-like behavior. Recall that Clintons were despised newcomers at that time.
The result is that the intelligence of The Borg as a collective is much smaller than the intelligence of the individuals it includes. The absorption mechanism works partly through rituals of rejections and memory of resulting shocks, not joining such rituals makes you a target, and immune individuals are marginalized or eliminated.
Trump and Sanders have partial immunity to the absorption mechanisms, each was dwelling not in "the center", where the pressures are largest, but in a niche, one "idiosyncratic politician from a state that values individuality", the other, a colorful businessman that is not treated seriously.
Trump is pretty sharp, but he trust information from the nearest acquaintances, like the family, and little else, so the further we are from condos, hotels and resorts, the less reliable he is. Montenegro is a little shitty country without sufficient amount of flat ground to make a decent golf course, so he does not appreciate indefatigable efforts to absorb it to NATO after decades of trying. And he says it loudly! It does not matter one way or another, but a true Borg member would never do it.
Unfortunately, Kushners are proud Zionists, father-in-law displays Netanyahu connections as a prized heirloom or tchotchke, so Trump behaves like a "Zionist tool". But these are not "deep state Zionists" thinking in terms of "World Order", just narrow minded yokels -- so is Netanyahu for that matter. As a result, Trump freely bumbles out of bound on Montenegro, Latvia or North Korea. But lacking any concept of global affairs, he collects people using attributes like bold or decisive, and thus he packed his foreign policy posts with more colorful denizens of The Borg. Bolton is Exhibit One.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 1 2018 12:58 utc | 38
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 1, 2018 8:58:21 AM | 38
Sanders ha[s] partial immunity to the absorption mechanisms
What would be the evidence that Sanders is now or ever has been anything but a con artist sheep-dogging for the Democrat Party?
He's never done anything but spew empty words, strike empty poses, and then (pretend to) cave in. When has he ever tried to organize senate coalitions for monkey-wrenching and grid-locking? When has he ever worked to organize a permanent grassroots movement? (He did so neither before nor after the 2016 election.) Even during his allegedly real campaign he never really promised to do anything but the status quo if he became president. The only clear promise he made was to support Hillary and do all he could to deliver his supporters to her. That promise he dutifully kept, even after the Democrat establishment stole the primary from him.
No wonder the DLC always supports him by withholding support from any de jure Democrat candidate in Vermont. (The Sanders scam includes running as an "Independent".) The DLC has long found him very useful indeed.
Making peace too soon could produce an economically vibrant North Korean state armed with nuclear weapons and normal relations with the United States.
The guy just gives himself in right there: this is a struggle between capitalism and socialism. Kim Jong-un cannot be allowed to adopt the Chinese system. Cold War rages on.
Piotr Berman @ 38
No just no. I'd imagine in hitlers day misguided people would have said similar! In fact I know they did Google Lord Rothermere Hitler. look at images. sorry mate your psychologically rationalising !
Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 1 2018 14:53 utc | 41
By 22 November, Eight Army units in jump-off positios were nearly all in place
for the 24 November attack. On the army right, the ROK II Corp had reached its line
of departure on November 21st, 1950.
United States of America political and military leadership
were involved in a war against North Korea, a war of choice.
Piotr Berman @ 38
No just no. I'd imagine in hitlers day misguided people would have said similar! [...] sorry mate your psychologically rationalising! Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 1, 2018 10:53:10 AM | 41
I am sociologically rationalizing, it is a bit different. Most people are driven by self-interest, those who do not usually do not succeed in politics. But results depend on circumstances. A society in stable conditions develops cohesive establishment where the premium is on conformity and intelligence be damned, e.g. who cares what are social/global needs in a longer perspective. The conditions in post WWI Germany or in Russia after the dissolution of Soviet Union were not stable at all, thus a different type of people got to the top. For that matter, the conditions in USA got tad unstable too, thus relative success of Sanders and the success of Trump.
That said, Sanders is well school in survival as a niche politicians, and that explains the behavior that is perceived as "sheep dog". Challenging Military-Industrial-Complex too much would not allow him to survive even in the "wilderness of Vermont", as a result he hates to thinks about international affairs. That showed in what he was saying about Israel. Once he lost nerve and moaned about atrocious behavior of Israel that "killed ten thousands in Gaza", while in fact it was only a bit more than two thousands. He is disappointed in Israel as a former believing Zionist, believed to be a progressive state when he was young, and he just hates to read or talk about it, plus he know only too well how heavy anvils are dropped on people who are too "naughty" on international stuff. In other words, he shows effects of Pavlovian training.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 1 2018 15:47 utc | 43
A minor point: that picture you have posted is cropped. Here's the full picture:
That crop takes the image very much out of context. The crop has Bolton behind some unrecognizable wilds that you can label any way you want; the full picture shows that it's the DC swamp meant as a reference to Trump's "swamp" comments, instead of some Korean battlefield you may want to cast Bolton in. Also, by showing Bolton alone, you cast Bolton as the war monger who's an antagonist to "peace maker" Trump. The full photo shows both Trump and Bolton and others as part of the same team. The crop is misleading.
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 1 2018 16:50 utc | 44
Most of these reports are done by private non profit foundations speculating on what North Korea is doing. They use satellite photos obtained from private companies and do their own analysis of the sites. One showed the Yonbang reactor and could not determine if the reactor was running but the press only reports what it wants to see. All I could see is six deus and a half like trucks which was probably a detachment of soldiers guarding the place and one nice car which was probably their officer.
Pompeo came right out and said NK is still producing fissile material. All press reports for the agencies are anonymously sourced. They may be producing smaller missiles at their missile factory, there is not telling what is going on from our position. I find it interesting that the deep state has to turn to non profits for their twisting of the US media
Trump had not assembled a team to negotiate and is only shooting some high level people in there from time to time. The South Koreans are working hard at normalization but will not open up any real economic projects without verification. NK is angry but is moving slowly toward that goal. That should be expected as KIm has the same war party to deal with and its probably worse than ours
They are even talking about a pullback from the DMZ by all forces and creating a "zone of peace". Of course, the good news is ignored and only the bad news is reported. In the end, this may be up to the Asian nations to make this happen as the US plays a supporting role. A Trumpian move for sure.
Posted by: dltravers | Aug 1 2018 17:25 utc | 45
Have not accessed the site since the Iranian uprising that was brutally suppressed by Ahmadinejad in 2009. Attended the riots and was lucky to escape intact.
Am pleased to observe the site is active and as productive as ever.
Cheers,
Parviz
Posted by: Parviz | Aug 1 2018 17:25 utc | 46
Posted by: Parviz | Aug 1, 2018 1:25:59 PM | 46
Have you shortened your handle? Wasn't it Parvziyi or similar?
Your last comment in 2009 mentioned something about the Sunni Uprising in Iraq(?) being a positive development as I recall.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 1 2018 18:29 utc | 47
When the fool was talking about the comparative size of red ‘fire!’ buttons, I was ready for foolery, fun and laughter, even looking forward to it. What this is, is the ridiculous due crises. Yes! This is what it is. The Ridiculous Due Crises.
Ridiculous due’s! When I see these two statesmen together, - LMAO!
(Sorry. I repent. Somber comments only.)
NK is now, and will always be in the Atomic Bomb Club.
NK is Victorious! March On!
Posted by: DineroDProfit | Aug 1 2018 19:17 utc | 48
Christopher Blacks recent article made a point I have made a couple of times here, but its worth repeating
"One has to wonder whether Trump is a willing dupe in the anti-Russian hysteria contrived by the war fanatics and willingly plays the foil so the hysteria can be raised to a crisis point"
I wil say he and others employ this and similar strategies on other issues as well. Taking one position as his public face while working to achieve the opposite result and blaming others when he succeeds (a failure to the public)
Its a successful strategy. For example his so called rift with the unpopular Koch Brothers over tarrifs while having a dozen or so appointees from their camp. His dismantling of the EPA and tax cuts is a Koch Brothers dream. Tarrifs just get passed on to the lower classes in the form of higher prices.
Basically when Trump says anything you can expect him to do the opposite a good percentage of the time, except on issues of no real concern for the Deep State he serves and which simply serve to polarize the country along party lines. This is why he is so unpredictable since the lines may be blurred and he occasionally means what he says
In the end, people will have to look to the past to judge him based on the results. I am not optimistic.
Posted by: Pft | Aug 1 2018 19:46 utc | 49
@49 pft.. thanks.. that seems fairly accurate to me... trump is a gemini - 2 faced.. this is why i think pat lang - another gemini - has some special insight into trump - to a point!
Posted by: james | Aug 1 2018 19:54 utc | 50
Piotr Berman @38, 43
I agree with Russ @39. No one who is supposed to be a principled Independent with ideals Socialist would act the way that Sanders has.
You seriously need to rethink the 2016 election scam.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 1 2018 20:22 utc | 51
Piotr Berman
Well stated. Trump is simple-minded, narrowly interested in the enrichment of himself and his family, a total bumbler on the world stage, a stooge and a captive of his base, not a leader of his base, and a captive to the same reactionary forces that own the GOP who are not his base but pretend to agree with him for their own gain.
Sanders is a Senator, there is nothing concrete he can accomplish in the Senate as an Independent or a Democrat. He does mouth the right words and his efforts have moved a growing element the party to the left and opened new avenues for younger heretofore nonpolitical actors. This is considerable progress in the US system. A game of inches totally controlled by the wealthy.
Yes, he conceded to Clinton. He's a political realist. Or a sellout, or a compromiser whatever you wish to term him. This is the nexus of the US political system as it should be if it is to ever work again. Like it or not.
What is termed the US left has needed a realist like Sanders for quite some time. The poeple here who somehow manage to hold Trump to be some kind of radical breath of fresh hair are delusional. Those who consider Sanders an impotent phoney are generally of the same dream state of confusion.
Sanders calls himself a socialist for shock value and to set the ideological line further to the left of center. He's no socialist of course.
Russ, ideals never change the world. Idealism is dumb and dumber. Trump is a con man playing idealist, which is worse than dumb and yet look how many fall for his extremely repetitive nonsense game. People on the right of course have given complete fealty while those on the left, or should I say the ostensible left?
Cynicism is the worst. That is a carousel I would invite many spinner here to jump off. Sooner rather than later. Because it is already too late.
The US political system is being played to optimal effect by Sanders. No one from the left has had so much impact in 50 years.
The revolution will never occur within the US system by a leader inside that system. Sanders is not a radical. He's simply trying to unscrew some of the power centers of the corrupt Democrat Party and open small pathways for newcomers with different values.
However you wish to spin his so called lack of principled socialist ideals. He's succeeding in that small way whatever one thinks of him.
Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 2 2018 1:52 utc | 52
The US political system is being played to optimal effect by Sanders. No one from the left has had so much impact in 50 years.
And yes, I understand he has accomplished little. That is meant as a sad commentary of the US left this past half century.
Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 2 2018 2:00 utc | 53
donkeytale
You are deluded. USA has one Party with two flavors.
Sanders is a phony. You say he's a "realist" and "not a socialist" but that just acknowledges that he is not what he claimed to be - and not the person that people thought he was when they joined the "Movement" that Sanders jilted.
Sanders joins a long line of progressive fantasies that have ended in disappointment. Obama earned the moniker "Bush II" for a reason.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 2 2018 3:03 utc | 54
Jackrabbit, No I get the USA one party with two flavors very well. It is the system.
I agree, however it is very easy to diagnose this condition as the problem and I read it over and over and over again...and yet we see the GOP pushing their envelop so far right over many years, decades since Reagan. This has benefitted the wealthiest few and to the detriment of the working classes and minorities most especially.
So, there are two paths in my opinion. Work within the system, as Sanders has chosen, or......? This gets left unsaid. One could say there needs to be a dance combo of a insider Sanders, an FDR, an LBJ an MLK, Jr even,working in concert along with farther left oustider agitators working in the streets, a Malcolm, a Debs, a.....who is our current counterpart for Sanders? to get even the crumbs on the table such as (corrupt) unions, social security crumbs, Medicare/Medicaid/AFDC.
Two flavors is a very good analogy. for working people one flavor is dogshit and the other is piss.
Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 2 2018 3:42 utc | 55
@ donkeytale,
Once again we see how the more someone babbles about "realism", the more likely it is he has zero contact with reality, historical or current. You're a case in point.
Sanders is a Senator, there is nothing concrete he can accomplish in the Senate as an Independent or a Democrat.
Nothing but self-fulfilling self-limitation. But you certainly are the target audience for the con. Meanwhile, although it's certainly impossible to accomplish anything "good" in the US congress, lots can be done to obstruct and gridlock the bad. And as I said, Sanders never has done anything but strike poses and then "cave in" (as he'd really intended to do all along).
Cynicism is the worst.
It's hard to imagine a more cynical position than yours, which boils down to There Is No Alternative and Nothing Can Be Done. Certainly those are both true for anyone morbidly stupid enough still to have religious faith in the Democrat Party, or in US electoralism in its current form.
Since this is getting OT I'll save further comment for the next open thread, if anyone still wants to talk about it then.
Trump promised to make the North Koreans rich. Still waiting...
Posted by: RenoDino | Aug 2 2018 11:53 utc | 57
National Public Radio, very wide listener-ship in the USA, is all out to attack Trump's detente with North Korea. Five articles on one day (July 31) attack North Korea for its nuclear work!
One interview interview has the WaPo author Warrick with rhetoric such as the following.
President Trump then said North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat. Now, there are reports that U.S. intelligence agencies believe North Korea is still building weapons.
Warrick's job is as a conduit for anonymous intelligence officials, but when candid he understands that "They're looking at a long-term process. But they don't seem to be in any hurry to give up their weapons, which they depend on for their survival."
The liberal reaction is unrelenting opposition to any peace process and to advance the same demonization that precede war.
Living in America, the haze of disinformation is suffocating.
Hal C
Posted by: Hal C | Aug 2 2018 12:52 utc | 58
Hoarsewhisperer,
No, I'm the same Parviz as 9 years ago when I posted frequently while participating in demonstrations against Ahmadinejad. Use the search facility, enter my name, and you'll see the old posts.
I am appalled at the prospects for yet another War of Choice initiated by yet another GOP draft evader.
Posted by: Parviz | Aug 2 2018 13:16 utc | 59
Sure thing Russ. Next open enrollment. I agree this is coming close to thread hijacking.
I will be most interested to hear your own ideas of course much moreso than simply reshaping my comments in your own words into a reductio ad absurdum argument that I didn't make.
Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 2 2018 13:19 utc | 60
The government went back on the Iranian deal, doing so with the North Korean one already has precedence.
Posted by: Bill | Aug 3 2018 15:39 utc | 62
The comments to this entry are closed.
Quelle surprise! The U.S. MSM stirring up shite aghain so the MIC can make more $$$$. When the end comes, it will hit the MIC with crushing force.
Posted by: Beibdnn. | Jul 31 2018 19:33 utc | 1