Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 24, 2018

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-31

[Please excuse the lack of posts this week. I am with my larger family and the kids keep me busy.]

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

The U.S. embassy in Jordan let the "rebels" in southwest Syria know that they are on their own: ".. you should not base your decision on the assumption or expectation of military intervention by us." Several towns in the area have already decalred their will to reconcile with the Syrian government. More will follow. The Russian air force started to support the Syrian operations around Daraa with heavy bombing. The U.S. or Israel are now unlikely to intervene with anything but the usual propaganda. Get ready for new "last hospital", "barrel bombs", "chemical attack" and other nonsense headlines. Eva Bartlett is on the ground and reports from Hader, A Village Under Siege by al-Qaeda and Israeli Forces Alike.

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on June 24, 2018 at 9:02 UTC | Permalink

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Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 27, 2018 7:10:26 PM | 201
No seriously, do people in a town profit from companies drawing in migrants or don't they - think careers, shops, constructors ..... ?
Would any trade union fight against migration? Did any trade union in history do that? Surely, they are the ones fighting for workers rights?

This here is a statement by Britain's TUC:

A fairer deal on migration

EU migrants in the UK contribute about £2bn a year more in taxes than they get back, but that money isn’t being shared fairly. ...

The trade union movement is clear: being concerned about the impact of migration is not racist. Worries about exploitation and undercutting at work and about pressures on public services and housing are real and need action. And the benefits of migration for the economy and the country as a whole have not been shared equitably.

We believe that a fairer distribution of the benefits of migration can help address concerns, reduce tensions in communities and provide people with more opportunities for a better life. And a properly-resourced, maginatively deployed and popularly directed Migration Impacts Fund would go a long way to doing just that.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 27 2018 23:56 utc | 201

man, i am good for about 1 day at pat langs site, before i say something that offends him... he is pretty thin skinned, lol..

We are unable to post your comment because you have been banned by Sic Semper Tyrannis.

Posted by: james | Jun 27 2018 23:58 utc | 202

Jackrabbit @181. I’ve dug up a bunch of other articles/reports on Mansoor’s claim that CIA/MI6 deliberately installed the Islamic element over the Republic of Iran. There certainly seems to be a lot of “there there.”

If true, it has crucial importance today, not just historically because that means that everything we’re told about Iran/US/Israel relations right now is BS.

Here’s another Iranian author who supports the thesis with yet more sources.

The thesis that the British and U.S. governments drove out the Shah and replaced him with Khomeini destroys the clash of civilizations myth that has dominated the global conversation between Islam and the West for over a generation.

For years I thought this thesis was too "out there," and a baseless conspiracy theory. I did not want to believe that there was any truth to this. It changes my entire view of the 1979 Islamic Revolution, the relationship between Iran and the West, and the history of our times.

The implications of the thesis are too frightening to think about. The level of the treason and betrayal that is taking place against the people of every nation is beyond most people's imagination.

…the Shah's own words. "If you lift up Khomeini's beard," he said, "you will find Made In England written under his chin."

Dr. Ronen Bergman, an Israeli investigative journalist and author of the 2008 book, 'The Secret War with Iran,' says that the BBC put Khomeini on a public pedestal and amplified his voice, making his brand of Islamic revolution the only alternative option to the Shah's rule.

Bergman pointed out: "The BBC gave free hours of free broadcast to Khomeini from Paris. It is unbelievable.”

Historian F. William Engdahl says in his 2004 book, "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order,"

....White House Iran task force [director, Ball] under the National Security Council's Brzezinski. Ball recommended that Washington drop support for the Shah of Iran and support the fundamentalistic Islamic opposition of Ayatollah Khomeini…. in order to promote balkanization of the entire Muslim Near East along tribal and religious lines.

The chaos would spread in what he termed an 'Arc of Crisis,' which would spill over into Muslim regions of the Soviet Union.

I can post more links if you or anyone cares to dig deeper.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 0:00 utc | 203

chu teh @195. Whom are you citing, or are you saying you were there then?

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 0:11 utc | 204

add to 202

This is the statement of the United States AFL-CIO

Like it was for generations of immigrants before, the labor movement is the natural home for new immigrants struggling to achieve economic security and win social justice, and our commitment to building an immigration system that represents the needs and interests of all working people is fierce and unwavering.

The only way to stop the race to the bottom in wages and standards is for working people of all races, religions and immigration status to stand together and demand an end to policies that put profits over people. The entire workforce suffers when millions struggle to support their families without a way to speak up on the job, and ramping up fear in our workplaces only serves to increase exploitation. Instead of deporting immigrants, we need to ensure that all working people have rights on the job and are able to exercise them without fear of retaliation. Enacting meaningful immigration reform is critical to our long-term efforts to lift labor standards and empower workers, and the labor movement will continue to stand in solidarity with all working people.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 0:14 utc | 205

Posted by: Clueless Joe @198

" Yet the real question is why did Keneddy remained at his office for so long, and didn't resign during Obama's 2nd term"

Not to mention "the Notorious RBG." The "liberal" Obama appointed neoliberal, but "identity politics" liberals justices. Had he gotten more chances, perhaps the facade would have fallen. After all, the last nominee (whom the Republicans refused to consider) was even more well known as economically "conservative" than the previous two.

This way, the Democrats get to blame not just Republicans, but as always, the voters who refused to accept their criminal war mongering candidate. The Republicans will get to pretend that the Trump nominee is "draining the swamp" or "doing god's work" because he/she will be their flavor on the "identity politics" bar.

But the 0.01% get what they always wanted.

I do not understand why anyone sincerely believes that the US has two competing political parties who disagree on fundamental and important issues.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 0:22 utc | 206


You haven't answered my questions @189 but you insist that I answer this question from your friend Soros.

So, Trade Unions whose membership have declined dramatically will accept legal immigrants as members? Is that surprising? And their stated acceptance of immigrants aligns with the political support from lefty Parties? Even less surprising.

However, I'm not sure that open borders (which is what you and your friend Soros are pushing for) is really a workplace issue as much as a societal one.

Call me conservative, but I'd like to see how well open borders work for other developed countries before MY country implements it. Please ask your friend Soros to talk with his friend Netanyahu. That should get the ball rolling. We can revisit this a few years after Israel has opened its borders, OK?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 0:43 utc | 207

Grieved, I've read some more of Mazaheri's writing. Mostly it supports what I'd already known, though he does add some interesting data points.

But, he definitely has an agenda, much more than settling scores with WSWS (a site with which I have some issues as well).

He is an employee of the Islamic Republic of Iran. He is promoting their perspective.

Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. RT does the same, and I still consider them a valuable source of information. But critical thinking requires that our judgements of such writing is informed by an understanding of the writers' bias.

And the "land of milk and honey" "rose-tinted glasses" view of the Islamic Republic that he promotes needs to be very skeptically investigated. Again, the IRI has done and is doing some things I support completely. But they are also a brutal and totalitarian government when they so desire.

Another Iranian author whom I cited, Mansoor also has an agenda, as I pointed out. For instance, he claims that there was no strong socialist movement in Iran in 1977-1979. He doesn’t mention that it was President Carter welcoming Shah into the US that precipitated the student takeover of the US Embassy 11 months after the Shah had fled the Palace.

I will state as a matter of fact that he's wrong about the socialist nature of the Revolution, and that he wants to ascribe that second Embassy event as CIA-driven, while the preponderance of evidence is that it was an actual spontaneous, student-led protest that was later hijacked.

So, have you looked at any of the sources I've posted? Do you (or anyone) have any substantial evidence to argue against the thesis that CIA/MI6 installed the existing Islamic theocracy in Iran?

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 0:47 utc | 208

@209 Daniel

Okay, I will bite.

I'll go back through this thread and gather your links into an action file. I'll monitor this thread if you would like to present even more. I will study these sources and open my thinking up to your theses and speculations.

I will also study Mazaheri's remaining articles, which should last a couple of months. I have very limited time, and things can take weeks in my schedule, but I will take on this project, because actually I would love to know Iran, and in a realistic way that does it justice.

Persia is what, 7,000 years old? And of continuous cultural memory? Yes, I would like to know this land and this people.

So let's strike a bargain here. If you will allow me the time of my study and my thought - knowing that my time is constrained - I will discuss with you my findings, and your findings, regarding Iran. And I'm quite sure this discussion will last at least into the winter.

And I trust we can do this in Open Threads here at MoA - which I assume and trust b would accommodate with his signature hospitality, as long as we respect the ongoing conversation of the bar.


Posted by: Grieved | Jun 28 2018 3:44 utc | 209

Grieved, I am ecstatic at your offer. Looking at the evidence with an open mind is all I could ask for.

After all, there seems to be no doubt amongst barflies that CIA/Deep State/Whatever has been backing Islamists at least since Afghanistan, starting in the same crucial year of 1979. Some even know that CIA/MI6 used a previous Ayatollah to create the street chaos that masked their coup against Iranian PM Mosaddegh in 1953. I’ve never noticed anyone doubt the evidence that they backed Islamists in Yugoslavia and Chechnya in the 1990s.

Certainly, we all seem to agree that they backed Islamists in Libya, and are presently backing them in Syria.

So it took me aback when suggesting the same was done in Iran again in 1979 seemed to be "a bridge too far."

I'll keep reading Mazaheri's articles, too. After one of my posts above, I shuddered when realizing it sounded like I was saying I already knew everything he wrote. Not my intention, or the truth.

Thank you. I look forward to further discourse, and your insights into your studies whenever you feel it appropriate. If you'd like me to post a cleaner and/or updated bibliography, let me know.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 4:21 utc | 210

@211 Daniel - "If you'd like me to post a cleaner and/or updated bibliography..."

I hesitate to ask, because the task was mine to scrape the thread - but if you have the time and energy, you could present me with a starter kit of concepts to look at first, to understand where you're coming from.

Remember, we have all the time in the world. And we will be in discussion. So you don't have to dump everything all at once. We can spend time gathering the framework of the thesis.

If you can present this here, then thank you. If time fails your end, no problem.

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 28 2018 4:36 utc | 211

208 The distinction you draw is not true.

Today's trade unions are in favor of a path to citizenship for illegal labor.

The reason is simple. It is the illegal immigrants who deteriate working conditions in an industry for everyone as they are easily blackmailed.

However, I'm not sure that open borders (which is what you and your friend Soros are pushing for) is really a workplace issue as much as a societal one.

Frankly, I think Trump is a societal issue threatening the US a lot more than catholic Mexicans.

I am in favor of legal immigration. No one should be forced to work in a country illegaly.

If the US really wanted to stop immigration from Mexico, they would have to make sure there are jobs in Mexico. It would solve a lot of the criminality, too. It is a very simple solution. Instead Trump has started a trade war which has the exact opposite effect.

There are a lot of people who profit from illegal immigration, and Trump's construction business used to be among them. He is now profiting from illegal immigrants for a second time for getting votes.

Donald Trump quietly paid $1.4 million in 1998 to settle a class-action lawsuit that alleged he stiffed a union pension fund by employing undocumented Polish laborers to demolish a department store to make way for Trump Tower.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 5:30 utc | 212

Daniel 207

I do not understand why anyone sincerely believes that the US has two competing political parties who disagree on fundamental and important issues.

As for the partisan Dembots and Repbots, they're not political at all but far more like rabid sports fans. They merely root on their party instead of a sports team. That explains their bootlicking conformity to whatever their Leaders say on any given day, their general ignorance of what their party actually does, the evident fact that they don't care what their party does, the general idiocy of their "arguments", and their overall cultish stupidity.

So for them "believing" has zero to do with reality in the first place, any more than cheering on your favorite team does. It's like arguing over which team's jersey is "right" and which is "wrong".

As for "undecided voters" and other types who may actually think it's possible to find significant differences between the two halves of the Corporate One-Party, that's a mystery to me, other than to chalk it up to the usual human stupidity and inertia. (They've been indoctrinated since childhood to believe in "multi-party democracy", and believe is what they do.)

Posted by: Russ | Jun 28 2018 11:02 utc | 213

I can refine this a bit. To someone who feels that imperial wars of aggression are a good thing, as both Dembots and Repbots do, as well as most other voters, there may seem to be substantive differences between the two parties of war. To someone who feels these wars are bad in every way and rejects them completely, there is of course zero difference between the parties.

But even that wouldn't explain those who vote for their own economic immolation, all the while insisting that "the other party would've been immolating us." That's pure and direct self-destructive behavior, and would better use a psychiatrist rather than a political scientist to analyze it. Like I started out saying, these people aren't political at all.

Posted by: Russ | Jun 28 2018 11:11 utc | 214

add to 213

There is another reason why Trump is so incredibly bad for the United States.

If you want to do stuff that serves society - like ensuring social peace - this hardly ever is profitable for individuals though it may be good for society as a whole. For this a state needs taxation. Trump has cut already low taxes for people (highest in Germany is 42%) and the corporate tax rate - which is well behind Europe.

Of course this works for drawing corporate investment - which will lead to, you guessed it - immigration.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 11:23 utc | 215

Just for the record --- I 'd like to grab Trump by ' the scruff of the neck ' and chuck him out of everyone else's country ! Trade, banking, and the war machine. Same as that deep state bunch. Treat the problem not the symptom .
It doesn't matter what the label on the tin says, it's what's in the tin that counts ! The tins a ' can of worms '

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 11:29 utc | 216

Mark2 @ 217
To add to my above comment !!
The same applies to that scabby wife of his. The state of her !! With that writing on the back of her jacket !!! Is that that the best America have got to offer ? Haha haaa ha. Shame.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 11:40 utc | 217

add to 216

United States tax revenue compared to other countries

You pay higher taxes in Scandinavia, Germany and France, but education is free, social security exists, infrastructure is good, street aggression is low, though neoliberalism has taken its toll.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 11:41 utc | 218


I am also intrested on your view on that sentence Jackrabbit posted ("Immigrants are easy to exploit and help to drive down local wages. This is true even for highly skilled work. Like computer programming, for example.")

Are you saying that immigration dont bring down wages? Or is a threat to even poor lower class?

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 12:20 utc | 219

Zanon @ 220
It's the greedy rich that deliberately keep wages down and then scape goat imagrants/refugees , get it ! The poor we are ,the richer the rich are ,and the less were able to fight back !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 12:44 utc | 220

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28, 2018 8:20:41 AM | 220

Illegal immigration is doing this, workers who have less rights than the indigenous population, workers who cannot go on strike (that is the only remedy in a boom market, it does not work well in a contracting market)

So making workers illegal is the exploitation, not immigration as such.

Indigenous workers always have an advantage, language, skills, organization etc. It takes at least one or two generations for immigrants to advance.

It is two sided - workers are not just earning money they are also consumers. So keeping immigration out might raise wages and make it impossible to fill jobs where the profit does not allow for high wages, but it also affects the price workers have to pay for goods and services.

Where I live to get stuff repaired in your household you cannot fix yourself you have to wait for something like 6 weeks and then the bill is outrageous but you are too grateful to protest. This with high immigration. I could try to find someone doing it illegally but then I rather do it myself, as there is no way granting the quality.

I tend to buy less and spend more on individually produced local goods - but I am not typical for the average consumer.

But yes, of course, immigrants are strong competition to very low skilled, indigenous workers, who also may suffer from all types of handicaps. To keep the social peace that is elementary in a society you need social security.

The United States have more than 20 times the homicide rate of France. France has an immigrant population (ie people not born with French citizenship) of 20 percent. If you are really worried about society you have to invest in social peace.

Today's populists exploit a mix created by neoliberal politics and loss of elite status.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 14:00 utc | 221

We call it ' karma' how you treat people, is how you wil be treated soon! There's a long que for help! Get to the back of the que.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 14:21 utc | 222


Its not related to "illegal" immigration but immigration itself,
if a country open up its border for refugees and lets say 700'000 comes through and that these people lack knowledge, skills for the most basic of work, do you really deny that these people are not pushing the wages down?

Refugess are often without jobs for years, so when you claim that they are consumers, you are wrong.
Not to say they consume, but its a total economic imbalance and not a profit for the society in general.
It has nothing to do with "populists" or "exploitation" of refugees, it is the bitter truth of economics.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 14:34 utc | 223

May be if you (America) stopped impoverishing 'there country' your country wouldn't get 700,000 starving victims coming to your country! Ther not the problem ther the symptom. Your the problem! You want the whole many trillion has USA got? Times it by a thousand and your poor will still be poor. Wake up!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 14:54 utc | 224


The article that you cite supports my point: union leadership see immigrants as a way to gain political strength by reversing the decline in their membership and supporting the efforts of a certain political party. Even so, the article states, reversing their decades-long anti-imigrant stance

. . . is hardly a magic solution to labor’s decreasing membership or weakened political clout.

"Look, a squirrel!"
LOL. You lost the open borders debate, so you divert attention to Trump.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 15:19 utc | 225


This problem of immigration is not limited to America, its the same, even more troublesome in Europe. And yes, EU/US wars bring this madness on.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 15:27 utc | 226

Imigration is'nt a problem it's a symptom! Read my lips ! And repeat after me! What are you a bot ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 15:34 utc | 227


Even on legal immigration you are not factual, as Zanon correctly points out.

For example, it has been well documented that large numbers of immigrant computer programmers and tech workers has driven down wages in the US (and likely other developed nations as well).

Imported tech workers gladly accept substantially lower pay to ensure that they can renew their work visas. They need to be continually employed until they can apply for permanent residence.

It's a racket. Once they get permanent residence/citizenship, they can arrange for family to join them (legally). These family members can apply for social benefits.

This LEGAL program is corporate welfare. Excess corporate profits are indirectly paid by US citizens.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 15:52 utc | 228

Jackrabbit @ 229
And.what about all the Americans that work abroad ? Let's have a level playing field!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 16:03 utc | 229


Americans that work abroad are often in positions that require trust of corporate HQ and/or that don't compete with local workers.

Example: Petroleum engineers in Saudi Arabia. Financial derivative specialists in Dublin. Corporate sales executives managing a sales team (comprised of Europeans) in London.

Americans generally don't want an overseas assignment especially if it is not to a developed country (though they are happy to take cheap vacations to lesser-developed countries).

AFAIK, the biggest contingent of overseas American "workers" are related to military and energy (mostly engineers in the Gulf States).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 16:22 utc | 230

Great thread!

@179 Daniel said "What my friends described - and which later research confirmed - is that this popular, socialist revolution was hijacked by the Islamists. My quest has been to figure out how that happened. I think we’re getting much closer to understanding.

I also wish to remind any following this that my dearest Iranian friend had been arrested and imprisoned by the Shah’s SAVAK as a teenager. She was held in prison for 3 years. Her crime? Being a socialist."

Knowledge derived on the ground in committed action.

Posted by: chu teh | Jun 27, 2018 3:09:53 PM | 195

... Her succinct analysis was that the Shah would not last more than 2 years and would be removed by popular uprising. Her on-site observations of popular detestation of him personally meant the overwhelming and growing antipathy could not reverse.[That detestation was majorly due to Dr.Mossadegh's earlier removal after his exposing the Anglo-Iranian [[later BP]] oil scandal, whence the Shah was forced to flee in 1954.]

Are these examples of experiental knowledge
of an order beyond the artifacts of speculative thought?

Posted by: Guerrero | Jun 28 2018 16:40 utc | 231

Ha so it's o k for them to be taking up jobs in other county's as immigrants oh I see! Ha ha and what about that level playing field. The USA are not the master race. The rules of the game apply to all equily. And as a reminder the USA is a country built of immigrants.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 16:51 utc | 232

Mark2: Ha ... oh I see!

Maybe you misunderstood. I agree that there should be fair play. And I'm not against all immigration.

While most people know that illegal immigrants are exploited, few are aware that legal immigration has been used as corporate welfare.

Further, context is important: my comment is part of a larger discussion with somebody, who has tried to make the case that all immigration is good and has voiced support of capitalist oligarchs as some sort of natural order that we must all accept.

The benefit from tech immigration as a tool to drive down tech wages is paid for directly and indirectly by: 1) the immigrant worker, 2) the citizens of the host country; and 3) citizens of the country of origin which loses a skilled worker that they have educated/trained.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 17:21 utc | 233

New York Times exposes its own hypocrisy with cartoon of Trump & Putin as gay lovers

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 17:31 utc | 234

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28, 2018 11:52:06 AM | 229

For example, it has been well documented that large numbers of immigrant computer programmers and tech workers has driven down wages in the US (and likely other developed nations as well).

I would like to see this documentation.

How about this: The uncomfortable truth about American wages

Among the most robust findings in economics is that education reduces unemployment and increases earnings. But even with the remarkable capacity for education to produce growth, the rate of educational attainment in the United States has slowed, especially for men. The share of men 25 to 34 with a college degree, for example, has barely increased over the last 30 years. (The trends are much better for women.) The United States, once the world leader in educational attainment, has been surpassed by many countries.

You need taxation for free education.

There is, by the way, a competition for the best international computer programmers. They can go to the country of their choice.

Taking the US out of international competition by tariffs and immigration control will make the US less competitive. Not more.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 17:36 utc | 235

Jackrabbit @234
I'll give you all of that in your last comments. But firstly no human being is illegal there it is full stop. You go down that road and you end.up separating small children from there parents and putting them in dog kennels ! It's not healthy for them or you trust me.
Your previous comments carry no qualification as you just gave ! Trust me I'm red hot on the dog whistle politics game ! That's what killed 100,000 in rawanda.make ya point but leave the fuck immigrants out of it. If! Your genuine.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 17:43 utc | 236

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28, 2018 10:34:39 AM | 224

Its not related to "illegal" immigration but immigration itself,
if a country open up its border for refugees and lets say 700'000 comes through and that these people lack knowledge, skills for the most basic of work, do you really deny that these people are not pushing the wages down?

? If they don't work how can they push wages down?

What I said is that there is a need for cheap work by consumers. Buying cheap imported goods or local services.

Here in Germany - the state (taxpayer) - funds work, so that it is cheap and at the same time, people can live on their income.

Of course, you can fight for a reversal of the Geneva convention, but there is no economic advantage in it. Refugees function like a wall to Mexico, the building of a Gothic cathedral and yes, building the autobahn, as a public works project fuelling the economy. I would argue they are the best investment of all of the above, though I like Gothic cathedrals.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 17:49 utc | 237

Somebody @ 232
Re- USA education. --- garbage in garbage out generaly speaking most Americans have been brainwashed /programend,by there msm they have no concept of reality let alone humanity. Hence trump got to be president a degenerate .

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 17:53 utc | 238

Mark2 @ 239
That should be somebody@ 236

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 17:59 utc | 239


"? If they don't work how can they push wages down?

Its not black-white, regardless if the non skilled refugees get into the the job market or not, its a economic burden for the society. Dont you agree with this?

Take a look at this link:
Most refugees to stay jobless for years – German minister

I dont know why you are so obsessed with the question of consumption, its a neoliberal capitalist dream,
why should refugees, let alone anyone be so eager to spend their salaries on buying cheap stuff?

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 18:06 utc | 240

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28, 2018 1:21:08 PM | 234

Sorry, you cannot count.

The benefit from tech immigration as a tool to drive down tech wages is paid for directly and indirectly by: 1) the immigrant worker, 2) the citizens of the host country; and 3) citizens of the country of origin which loses a skilled worker that they have educated/trained.

1) No, he would not come if he did not think it of benefit.
2) No, the legal immigrant worker pays taxes like everybody else. In the case of tech workers substantial taxes.
3) That is correct, however the training is no use, if there is no employment. As far as I know, quite a few chose to return to their country, eg. when kids are old enough to go to school. They then bring back the experience they got abroad.

I doubt foreign workers in the tech sector were used to drive down wages. A lot of the reason would be scarcity of tech workers in the US, diversity (all tech firms sell international, so need international know how), and project work.

There is a worldwide shortage of tech workers, the US is no exception - but it seems especially bad in the US.

Something got to do with the quality of schools I guess.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 18:08 utc | 241

Somebody refugees have had there nations distroyed there family are torn apart half of them don't make it alive and those that do you want to exploit them as cheap labour ! I'd suggest that's doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I'd be more impressed if I hered Germany speak up about the atrocitys going on in the world.
Haveing said that if the other eu nations took there fair share of there own victims / refugees Germany' would not have had to take in so many. Never mind cheap labour, pay them compensation and to hell with ya work! Do it ya self! There's the mop n bucket get busy.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 18:23 utc | 242


Human beings are not illegal but they can do things that are.

>> "No human being is illegal" is a Democratic Party dog whistle designed to manipulate their base.

>> Obama had the same policy of separating families. Immigration attorney asked him to change it. He refused to do so. Where was the outrage THEN? The policy could've been changed 3 years ago.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Further remarks on:

"Illegal immigration" refers to an act, not a person. "Illegal immigrants" refers to a certain group of people.

Prior to an official determination, an individual should be referred to as an "undocumented alien" but if found to be in the country illegally (and thereby subject to deportation), it is logical to say that that person is/was an "illegal immigrant". It is logical to refer to the group of people that are in the country without legal authorization and thereby could be subject to deportation as "illegal immigrants".

Democratic Party hypocrisy
Starting with Bill Clinton, the Democratic Party deliberately chose to re-orient in a way that de-emphasized class issues and focused on identity issues. This "business friendly", "Third Way" politics was an excuse to betray the interest of common people via allowing companies to reap excess profits from shipping manufacturing jobs overseas & use of immigrant labor; deep tax cuts for the wealthy; support for militarism in the form of "humanitarian intervention; etc.

The problems with this shift to an oligarchical-friendly government are becoming more apparent everyday. We now have the greatest income inequality since the 1920's Gilded Age. But you don't hear Democrats making much of a fuss about it. In fact, Hillary-DNC conspired against the Sanders campaign.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 18:40 utc | 243

Will Iran exit the nuclear deal?

Posted by: Ossama | Jun 28 2018 18:53 utc | 244

241 Yep, RT has for some reason an agenda to prove that refugees are bad for Germany. Might have something to do with Syria. Or dislike of what Germany did in Ukraine. I don't blame them.

Fact is there are a few million emigrants from the former Soviet Union in Germany and as far as they speak Russian, Lavrov insists on representing them.

Its not black-white, regardless if the non skilled refugees get into the the job market or not, its a economic burden for the society.

It is a public investment that fuels the economy no matter how much work refugees do themselves. Refugees need food, housing, schools, clothing, doctors ....

Demographically, Germany has a choice to shrink with an aging, increasingly growing non working population, or to invite immigration.

Trump's policy investing in infrastructure, by the way, is based on immigration to the US. You can do it either way - invest in refugees who need infrastructure or invest in infrastructure that need immigration -

All signs and numbers point to a huge year for the construction industry. Even in December, with much of the nation frozen, the construction industry added 30,000 jobs, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

For all of 2017, construction added 210,000 jobs, a 35 percent increase over 2016.

Construction spending is also soaring, rising more than expected in November to a record $1.257 trillion, according to the Commerce Department. That was up 2.4 percent annually. Spending increased across all sectors of real estate, commercial and residential, with particular strength in private construction projects. The only weakness was in government construction spending.

Construction firms are clearly looking to hire more workers. Three-quarters of them said they plan to increase payrolls in 2018, according to a new survey from the Associated General Contractors of America. Industry optimism for all types of construction, measured by the ratio of those who expected the market to expand versus those who expected it to contract, hit a record high.

"This optimism is likely based on current economic conditions, an increasingly business-friendly regulatory environment and expectations the Trump administration will boost infrastructure investments," said Stephen Sandherr, the association's CEO.

Contractors are most optimistic about construction in the office market, which has seen little action since the recession. Transportation, retail, warehouse and lodging were also strong in the survey. Respondents were less encouraged by the multifamily apartment sector, which is just coming off a building boom.
A construction worker carries a sheet of plywood as he and co-workers install the sub-floor of a home onto pilings.
Emile Wamsteker | Bloomberg | Getty Images
A construction worker carries a sheet of plywood as he and co-workers install the sub-floor of a home onto pilings.

The biggest concern for the industry is the severe shortage of labor. This is slowing what could be a far more robust recovery in the residential housing market, which desperately needs more homes. December's employment report did show the biggest monthly rise in residential construction jobs of 2017, but homebuilders are still looking for skilled labor. Housing starts are increasing slowly, but they are not even close to meeting the strong demand.

Construction firms are adding jobs, but workers are also leaving the industry, aging out. In 2017, a net 190,000 new workers entered the construction industry, far lower than the prior three-year average of 284,000 annual additions. The National Association of Realtors, which is essentially begging builders for more homes, points to this as a huge problem and is appealing to Congress for new policies to ease the worker shortage.

"There needs to be serious consideration in allowing temporary work visas until American trade schools can adequately crank out much needed, domestic skilled construction workers," NAR chief economist Lawrence Yun wrote in response to the monthly employment report.

Temporary work visas would ease some of the pressure on the Mexican border, no?

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 19:01 utc | 245

What the USA are doing is illegal, it offends natural justice no if's or but's democrats republicans the same can of worms different label. Americans generaly speaking should grow some empathy and outrage! Become humane again. Take a walk in a immigrants shoes for a week and get back to me

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 19:01 utc | 246

add to 246
This here is the state of United State healthcare

In January, the Trump Administration announced it would end temporary protected status, or TPS, for some 200,000 Salvadorans, giving them a deadline of Sept. 9, 2019, to leave the country.

TPS is also ending for immigrants from countries such as Haiti, Honduras and Nicaragua, many of whom hold similar service industry jobs as Norma. As aging Baby Boomers increase the demand for direct care workers, this profession has found itself at the center of the nation’s debate over immigration. The long-term care industry is already facing a worker shortage, and if tens of thousands of immigrants are forced to leave the United States, the country’s growing elderly population, as well as those with disabilities and long term illnesses, could be left without care.

Though it’s difficult to tell exactly how many direct care workers could be affected by changing immigration laws, one in four workers are immigrants, according to the Paraprofessional Healthcare Institute. About 34,600 workers are non-U.S. citizens from El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras and Nicaragua, all of which are set to lose TPS in the next two years, according to the institute, and another 11,000 hail from countries that fall under President Trump’s travel ban while 69,800 direct care workers are non-U.S. citizens from Mexico.

There is a considerable emigration of senior US citizens to Mexico, by the way, maybe that is the intended solution.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 19:15 utc | 247

Thanks for that one 'somebody'
Just a small note of humour though, is every one else in America Native American ha ha I bet not! They don't mind getting there snout in everyone else trough but not the over way round !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 19:25 utc | 248

somebody @242

You say that I'm wrong on #1 and #2 of the three.

Yes. I was wrong about #1. The immigrant tech worker comes to better their life.

But you are wrong on #2. The immigrant tech worker doesn't pay as much in taxes as an American would, because they earn less than a comparable American (they've accepted less to have the opportunity to earn more than in their home country and to become a permanent resident/citizen).

But that's not all: as I explained in my earlier comment, once they get permanent residence/citizenship, they have a bonus: they can bring family members to USA who can apply for social benefits.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 19:51 utc | 249

A reminder to those who care to enter this debate:

somebody (and his friend Soros) are for OPEN BORDERS.

somebody has tried to avoid my questions @189 that highlight the absurdity of open borders.

somebody supports a neoliberal, oligarchic-friendly society and tries to avoid any discussion of the problems that might arise - problems that are evident in Banana Republics and failed states like Ukraine.

somebody points to isolated examples while trying to convince us that immigration is ALWAYS good (so there should not be any restriction).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28 2018 20:02 utc | 250

Grieved @222

I'm such a... what's the opposite of a tech nerd?

I put together a long piece with all the important links on CIA/Islamic Republic, but posted it on the wrong thread, and I see it has now vanished.

And, like an idiot, I did the final formatting in the text box, instead of a separate document, so I don't have a copy saved. Aaarrgghhh.

I'll check to see if b reposts it. Otherwise, I'll reformat and try again.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 28 2018 20:35 utc | 251


Now you begin sound like a manipulative neocon about RT.
Its the german minister that presented that fact (dont you read the links provided?!)
And RT doesnt have to prove that refugees are bad for Germany or whatever country.

It is a public investment that fuels the economy no matter how much work refugees do themselves. Refugees need food, housing, schools, clothing, doctors ....

Yes? Immigration cost and who pay for it? The already burdened taxpayer:

Refugee crisis cost Germany over €20 billion in 2016

20 billion only for 2016, that of course will rise coming years. Why should german taxpayers pay for that?

The myth about aging, if there is a demand for something there would be people applying for such jobs. Or do you imply refugees should be shipped to europe to work for low wages at eldery centers? Quite cynical.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 28 2018 20:44 utc | 252

Well done Mrs Merkel

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 21:19 utc | 253

Somebody - 202
"Would any trade union fight against migration? Did any trade union in history do that? Surely, they are the ones fighting for workers rights?"
Historically, the Left, specially the marxist/communist-minded one, has been opposed to migration, because making the world fair for workers meaning making all countries fair for workers, not just trying to make the workers' paradise in a few of them and either leaving the rest of mankind to rot or to migrate.
Marx and Engels would have obviously been totally opposed to what's going on in the West.
Old Left knew very well that mass migration is just the Kapital mobilizing its reserve army to crush the uppity Western workers, the same way unemployed workers were brought in and used in the past to crush factory strikes. The way Belgian miners were brought to Germinal's French mine to undermine the local strike.
Heck, there's the series of drawings by Jacob Lawrence about the US Great Migration, at DC's Phillips Collection. And even if he's Black himself and his parents actually took part to it, his comments made it clear that the Northern White workers were utterly pissed off, knew what was going, and some of the Blacks weren't naive and knew as well that they were used by the hundreds of thousands to make sure Northern factory workers would have no leverage over their bosses due to WWI shortage of men; Lawrence is totally honest and acknowledges that the great migration of Southern Blacks was quite good for them, all considered, but had very negative consequences for the Northern workers.

Bottom line is, indeed the key issue isn't with the bulk of migrants, who do what they can and what they're allowed to do, but with those who allow them to migrate en masse, basically with Western political and economic leaders, who fully benefit from their policies - otherwise, they just wouldn't apply such policies.
May I remind our esteemed barflies that both German and French heads of their respective national Employers Federations wrote philanthropic calls to humanitarian action in their countries' top newspapers when the refugee crisis hit its peak, back in 2015. Seriously, any leftist should know that when the top boss of all bosses advises a policy, the only sane reaction is to opt for the exact opposite, because doing what he says will always hurt the workers.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 28 2018 21:45 utc | 254

Or then again just stop bombing the fuck out of there country

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 28 2018 21:56 utc | 255

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 28, 2018 5:45:58 PM | 255

Historically, the Left, specially the marxist/communist-minded one, has been opposed to migration, because making the world fair for workers meaning making all countries fair for workers, not just trying to make the workers' paradise in a few of them and either leaving the rest of mankind to rot or to migrate.
Marx and Engels would have obviously been totally opposed to what's going on in the West.

I am not sure, you would make sense to Marx or Engels. Engels was the nicer of the two but Marx could throw whole nations under the bus if he considered them backwards and reactionary.
Anyway, what Marx thought about "countries" is very clear:

The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto.

The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 28 2018 23:30 utc | 256

somebody @257: what Marx thought about "countries" is very clear

IMO you are mis-interpreting Marx.

He didn't call for the end of nation-states, he saw their importance diminishing. He likely saw scheming elites/oligarchs as the chief reason for conflict among nation-states. I think he believed that conflict between classes would take precedence to conflict between nation-states. And once workers controlled all nation-states, the perverse incentives for war between states would cease to exist.

I think it's clear that globalization, including large-scale immigration, has strengthened capitalism by increasing corporate profits and pitting workers against each other (reducing wages and increasing social tension). Those driving this bus are oligarchs and other powerful interests (like MIC) that want to maintain and expand their exulted position.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 29 2018 0:46 utc | 257

Anytime people with great wealth and power tell me that my enemy is poor and powerless people, I call BS.

The “Refugee Crisis” is clearly a manufactured situation. That the Global War OF Terror would create millions of desperate refugees was easily foreseen. Wars always create desperate refugees.

That neoliberal/neocolonial economic plundering of resource-rich areas would create desperate refugees was also easily foreseen. Desperately poor people always flee to seek better lives for their families.

Then, you take countries that were already reeling from the Great Recession and IMF-forced “austerity” programs, and open the doors for desperate, foreign refugees to enter, and the publics will be torn apart.

One faction will call for “helping” the refugees. The other faction will call for deporting them and blocking others. Desperately poor people always flee to seek better lives for their families. Again, this is all totally foreseeable.

As I am not a proponent of either the “Grand Incompetence” or "Grand Coincidence" Theories of geopolitics, I am left to believe all of these results were desired by TPTSB. No matter what though, here we are, bickering amongst ourselves about how to treat the millions of desperate refugees, instead of planning how to stop frigging creating desperate refugees!

Special thanks to Mark2 for keeping a cool head while keeping his eyes on the ball.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 29 2018 2:55 utc | 258

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 28, 2018 8:46:00 PM | 258

I quoted him. He speaks for himself. If you believe you can mindread him in the grave ... :-))

Posted by: somebody | Jun 29 2018 5:40 utc | 259

Zanon @235. There was an even more graphic "Trump and Putin, sittin' in a tree" billboard hypocritically splashed all over the "liberal media" during the 2016 election campaign.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 29 2018 7:06 utc | 260

>>>> Nick | Jun 24, 2018 6:03:15 AM | 3
>>>> Lozion | Jun 24, 2018 9:34:21 PM | 38

Nah, Syria and Russia have three weeks to sort out Daraa, or more precisely until 15th July.

Looks like I was wrong by one day, with Trump meeting Putin in Helsinki on July 16th. Even Trump has to bow before the power and majesty of the World Cup.

After that Putin's threat to nuke any mofo that interrupts the World Cup probably expires.

I was being facetious here as Putin threatened no-one, but after the Beijing and Sochi Olympics, it wouldn't have surprised me if he had given out warnings, but the World Cup is vastly more important than the Olympics so anyone who interfered with Russia or its interests would lose public support throughout most of the World.

As for the negotiations, my guess is that the SAA will have captured eastern Daraa by July 16th and opened the M5 highway, secured Daraa and cornered Al Nusra and ISIS up against the Israeli border where they can be allowed to kill each other. If Jordan closes its border to Al Nusra and ISIS, it's pretty obvious where any support for them is coming from, and then Trump might not be the friend of Israel that everyone thinks he is. Just look at the way he has John Bolton singing several octaves higher, so high he could be a member of the that well known fictional New Jersey crime family.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jun 29 2018 7:54 utc | 261


How does this facts below relates to your arguments that 1 - refugees do work, 2 - consume significantly and 3 - will help the aging population and not as I have claimed - that the refugee policy hit the pocket of the german taxpayer?

THREE quarters of Germany’s refugees will be long-term unemployed and claiming benefits for years, it was admitted today.

Germany: Refugees living on welfare benefits rise dramatically

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 29 2018 8:29 utc | 262

Zanon @ 262
Personally I think it's a really good thing , It will help the west to really understand that there aggressive warmongering actions have long term consequences. The big question is have you actually learned enything! Enything at all by your mistakes. Stop your whining and just suck it up.haha

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 8:48 utc | 263

:-)) I actually live in Germany. The unemployment rate keeps falling, tax revenue of the state keeps rising.

So whatever refugees are doing in this country, it does not do any harm.

You don't seem to realize that labour market integration is a large industry over here. It is thriving.

If you don't know that an economy works when you give something to get something you should read up on Keynes.

Of course, Germans could have spent all that money they are investing in the integration of refugees by buying US bonds instead.

I did mention German demographics? Any investment into human capital is a good investment, no matter if schoolkids or refugee parents.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 29 2018 12:04 utc | 264


Actually if you read my links, it is mainly statistics from the government, are they wrong you say?

In One German Region, Unemployment of Migrant Crisis Arrivals is 96 Per Cent
"The German Federal Employment Agency claimed last year that 74 per cent of the newly arrived migrants were only fit for menial labour jobs and are unlikely to fill the vacancies for skilled labour that is in demand."

Majority unemployed, majority could only do menial work > low wages.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 29 2018 13:43 utc | 265

>>>> Zanon | Jun 29, 2018 9:43:04 AM | 265

For some strange reason in Germany employers expect their workers to speak German, not one of the easiest languages to learn. A few years back I investigated the opportunities I as a highly-skilled British IT worker would have in Germany and unless I could find a job with an American or British corporation operating in Germany, they were very limited as my German was not good enough.
And if you'd bothered to take your head out of your arse long enough to read further into the MZ article rather than just the crap from Breitbart, you'd have found the following:

In the whole of Saxony-Anhalt almost 13,600 refugees were jobless in the middle of the year - but in many cases only because they initially took part in language courses.

Opportunities in trade and gastronomy
The Provincial Employment Agency therefore expects that Syrians and Afghans will find work in the near future, for example, in commerce, catering or in the cleaning industry. There are more than 5,000 vacancies nationwide in these areas.


Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jun 29 2018 14:17 utc | 266

Ghost Ship

Yes the language question only further prove my point of how troublesome and irrational the pro refugee argument is,
first they (western stattes) accept many 100'000s of refugees, and when they arrive they need to learn the language (sure), many dont for various reasons, which of course is another economic problem with the open border mentality.
Why is Breitbart bad, the facts are true.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 29 2018 14:39 utc | 267

Zanon @ 267
The difference between you and me zanon is, I respect my fellow human being. That is why I won't give up on you!
Your suggesting that Germans are the victims of the refugees crises! Can't you see that your blaming your fellow victims. If you want my advice I would join antifa or black bloc, wow there a fine group of people ! Germany's finest! Did ya see them at that g8 protest brilliant. You victims need to stick together. Work out who really really made you a victim and knock on there door till then your gonna keeping being a victim!!! One love .

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 14:58 utc | 268

It is remarkable how easily the 'immigration' argument fall back into the pattern set by the media and preferred by the ruling class.
It is almost always true to say that emigration is forced on emigrants. Like those who, in the past, flocked to America and Australasia, those leaving the middle east are doing so because their lives at home have become impossible or, at least, very difficult.
It is surprising that any regular visitor to this website would fall into the idiocy of believing that greed or ambition lies behind the migrants decisions.
Unless immigration is viewed in the context of war, economic sanctions and the poverty induced by imperialist policies (including the IMF's) it is incomprehensible.
As to ruling class contributions to public discussions of the question: they are shaped, primarily, by the economic interest that they have in creating a 'surplus' of labour and the political advantages that dividing their victims by race, language, religion and birthplace gives them.
In political terms the origin of the influx of refugees into Europe in recent years stems from the support given to the State of Israel, which began life by expelling the best part of a million Palestinians in the Nakba. This population now is numbered in the millions. But the greatest impact of support for Israel has been in the wars waged on its behalf in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan and elsewhere. They have all had the effect of driving out millions of people while ruining the economies of the countries affected-which naturally has the consequence of accelerating the flow of migrants.
The EU has brought this influx upon itself. Or.rather, on its subjects. Frankly, the idea that there might be some economic benefits from the movement of millions of people-benefits to the bourgeoisie that is- is obscene. Anyone with the tiniest amount of imagination must be able to understand that the movement of, for example, a family from Syria (driven from home by wahhabi militias sponsored by the US and the UK, among others), is so painful that it deserves all our sympathy and support. Both of which ought to find practical expression in public anger against governments supporting Israel by killing millions of innocent people.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 29 2018 15:13 utc | 269


I dont talk criticize the refugees my criticism is at the government that cause these problems.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 29 2018 15:25 utc | 270

Ok zanon that's good to here . It's just how some of your indavidual comments could be taken that way, as they were by me, we have to be very careful that are words aren't twist by the tricky people who really are the problem. Not you and me . Also for the same reason it's best to qualify your views clearly with just who has caused our problems.if we stand together we can solve this globle problem. We maybe little people but together we are strong! Our enemy is a small group of very evil people! But trust me we can win.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 15:50 utc | 271

bevin @270:

In political terms the origin of the influx of refugees into Europe in recent years stems from the support given to the State of Israel . . . But the greatest impact of support for Israel has been in the wars waged on its behalf in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan and elsewhere. They have all had the effect of driving out millions of people while ruining the economies of the countries affected-which naturally has the consequence of accelerating the flow of migrants.

Not surprising: Israel will not accept Syrian refugees.

US has also accepted very few. And Turkey stopped being a host as soon as Europe stopped paying for their upkeep.

Europe has become a dumping ground for the Anglo-Zionist-Wahhabi mess.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 29 2018 16:20 utc | 272

Victoria Nuland is the perfect spokesperson for this policy: F*ck the EU!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 29 2018 16:24 utc | 273


Come on, educate yourself

Carl Jung: We are the origin of all coming evil

Posted by: somebody | Jun 29 2018 16:29 utc | 274

Jackrabbit @ 273
What's your view on Isis being an abreveation of Israile secret service ! I don't know,but it would explain a hell of a lot.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 16:42 utc | 275


The more you and other support this refugee/open borders, the faster the so called populists will take power - as they have, just take the recent breakdown of EU-talks on immigration. There will be a change and nothing could stop that now, and it is directly related to the refugee-open border policies that people like yourself have been uncritically supported.
You could have for example only supported sought after immigration for specific jobs, but you support for anyone to come "here", those policies will vanish more and more now.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 29 2018 16:47 utc | 276


"Around 120,000 people have fled their homes in Deraa province in the last ten days as Syrian regime forces advance, with many heading towards the borders of Jordan and the Israeli-controlled Golan."

It would be interesting to know exactly who those people are on the Golan border getting help from Israel. And exactly how many of them there are.

Meanwhile there are 'confirmed' reports from Jordan about a ceasefire.

Posted by: dh | Jun 29 2018 16:47 utc | 277

Somebody @ 275 you may be the origin of all evel but i'm not ! Your not by any chance c I a or maybe mi5 perhaps Mossad? It would'nt surprise me if there creeping around here some place! Such an influencal site as this. Forgive me for asking. But don't worry I wipe my door knobs (Salisbury ref) ha ha.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 17:00 utc | 278

Zanon @ 277
Where do you suggest those refuges go ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 17:07 utc | 279

Zanon @ 277
Where do you suggest those refugees go ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 29 2018 17:10 utc | 280

@270 bevin

That's an excellent observation, thank you. Someone should speak for the real refugees of this world and proclaim that they would rather have stayed home. If there was any home left to stay in.

Even migrant workers would prefer to stay home.

There are a comparative few travelers and intentional emigrants in this world, and they walk on an exalted high road which we can certainly admire. But for the rest of the displaced, they would rather stay home.

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 30 2018 0:07 utc | 281

Posted by: bevin | Jun 29, 2018 11:13:06 AM | 270

"...the origin of the influx of refugees into Europe in recent years stems from the support given to the State of Israel..."

”I think there's a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time, Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies that they once were in the last century.

“Jews are going to be at the center of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode, and Jews will be resented because of our leading role.”

Spoken by an Barbara Lerner Spectre, an American-born Jewish woman who "made Aliyah" to Israel and later moved to Sweden to work on teaching Europe to be multicultural. Note: She said this in 2010, years BEFORE the "Refugee Crisis."

More evidence that the “Refugee Crisis” is a deliberately manufactured situation.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 30 2018 0:35 utc | 282

Mark2 @276

Way back in 1990, in a C-SPAN interview with Jewish historians/journalists Brian Lamb, Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman, the authors of the book Every Spy a Prince: The Complete History of Israel’s Intelligence Community , they describe how Israeli Prime Minister’s Office officially refers to its it's intelligence organizations as “Israeli Secret Intelligence Service,” or ISIS.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure...

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 30 2018 0:46 utc | 283

Thanks for that Daniel
And how come despite the massive Isis campaign Israil has gotten by unscathed! With an Isis camp right next door. Teflon perhaps!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 8:20 utc | 284


A good question, but surely they cannot go to many european states,
perhaps the issue is to stop the western-backed wars and not aiding terrorists and so forth.
Where do you think they should go?

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 30 2018 11:23 utc | 285

Zanon @ 286
Thanks for getting back to me on that one,yep it's a good'n. We agree , there would be an endless amount of them. If this is not solved. As you say , we should stop the war's! If we were to ask refugees they would agree with us too, they would rather go home. sad thing is that would have been the answer several years ago! How much smaller the problem would have been, for them and us!
I'v got to say, i'v really enjoyed our discution on this post. Real straight talking both sides. And problems solved. We'll do it again I hope ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 14:45 utc | 286

@270 bevin.. thanks for your ongoing comments that bring a level of sanity to a number of different conversations here at moa..

@273 / 274 jackrabbit... that is all worth pointing out too! maybe israel isn't interested in taking back the headchoppers it funded? they are happy to try to create murder and mayham in syria, but not happy to take back those they paid to do it.. nuland - what a piece of work...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2018 15:16 utc | 287

Daniel, great comments over many weeks, very informative, thanks!

Posted by: PeacefulProsperity | Jun 30 2018 15:54 utc | 288

Not good,

Analyst : US and Russia to work on Iran's presence in Syria

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 30 2018 17:34 utc | 289

bevin says:

Unless immigration is viewed in the context of war, economic sanctions and the poverty induced by imperialist policies (including the IMF's) it is incomprehensible

actually, regarding our new improved ngo gerrymandered immigration phenomenon, we now have waves of strong, healthy young men here largely just for the adventure.

here's Dmitry Orlov….

Quite a few are Islamic radicals who see themselves as actual colonizers; many more have no qualms about robbing Europeans and raping European women. A few thousand are actual terrorists being sent in to await orders. For most of them, crashing into the EU and freeloading there is part of an excellent adventure—far more exciting than herding cattle or growing millet in their native villages (link)

Posted by: john | Jun 30 2018 17:57 utc | 290

John @291
Total garbage!!! Shame on you.
Don't here you complaining about what the west has done in there country's.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 18:10 utc | 291


if you'd bothered to read the linked article i might've engaged further…

but since you're just another hasty, presumptuous commenter, i won't.

Posted by: john | Jun 30 2018 20:14 utc | 292

John @ 294
Where do you suggest the refugees go ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 20:43 utc | 293

@294 I'll take a shot risk of being called a racist.

Life under wahhabis in Syria must have been absolute hell. Depending on my age and financial situation I would have gone to Turkey and waited it out or tried to get to Europe. Young men should have joined the SAA and fought the head-choppers. Seems the hard work has been done now so maybe it's safe to go back.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2018 21:12 utc | 294

Thanks dh
Most people what to live a peaceful life with there family's and not die. The west owes them that.the west owe's them a lot of compensation for the murder commited.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 21:29 utc | 295

@297 No doubt the West is to blame for all the problems in the Middle East. But the US/UK/Zionists will never admit it. If I was a Syrian I'd be suing the Saudis for compensation.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2018 21:34 utc | 296

We're watching natural justice at play here. Bomb the crap out of someone else's home and they move in with you ha ha. When do you think the right wing warmongers will work it out ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 21:42 utc | 297

@299 Which bombing are you referring to? Syrian/Russian bombing on Aleppo? US bombing Raqqa? I assume we are talking about Syria.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2018 21:55 utc | 298

I 'm talking about the Middle East in general, but let's also include all the countrys the migrants come from as it will neatly mirror the violence and western curuption.natural justice !
. They won't profit from there brutal greed.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2018 22:06 utc | 299

Zanon et al Did y'all know that Breitbart News was a Bibi Netanyahu project?

It's purpose has always been to promote right-wing Zionism. All the claims of "anti-semitism" can be traced to the publication's repeated attacks on "liberal" Jews, whom they see as "race traitors."

Thanks for the supportive words, peaceful prosperity. Knowledge is power. Or at least, can be empowering.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 0:02 utc | 300

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