Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 21, 2018

Open Thread 2018-30

News & views ...

Posted by b on June 21, 2018 at 17:47 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Hey B please parse the NYT's front page propaganda piece on the Ghouta chemical event in today's paper "Horrific Details on Syria Chemical Attacks Left Out, for Now, From U.N. Report".

Posted by: Jason | Jun 21 2018 18:22 utc | 1

Could someone remind me the amount of country's America have invaded since the last world war 30 - 40 , I here'd. Compared to Russia 5-8 ? Russia is in Syria by invertation,to deal with rebels/terrorist's .America is now threatening both.despite being there to attempt a regime change. Just who do they think they are ? The sooner they are stopped the better and the easyer.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 21 2018 18:44 utc | 2

Mark2 @2--

Russia intervened nowhere; the USSR intervened in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. In 1993, Yeltsin's cabal intervened in Russia to preserve Bush's and Clinton's New World Order. USSR was invited into Afghanistan; Outlaw US Empire wasn't. An incomplete list from William Blum's Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II. A graphic map based on Blum's book.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 19:13 utc | 3

can anyone tell me if the de-escalation zone that was agreed upon by russia - usa - jordan - over a year ago, is supposed to remain in effect still? it is my understanding it was going to last a year.. the year is over, but the usa seems to be bellyaching, or better yet - israel is giving the usa a bellyache so as to look after itself, lol..

Posted by: james | Jun 21 2018 19:44 utc | 4

Pertaining to your question about evidence of CIA and other deep state forces using cash from illicit drug sales, b, if you have time check out a wiked documentary series called "Cocaine Cowboys". The first is a glimpse into how things got started in Miami, and is more of entertainment value than anything else. The second, however, describes exactly how the CIA introduced and established a massive crack cocaine market in California. It has a lot to do with the Ollie North "Iran Contra affair", and how the CIA was allowed to circumvent the traditional begathon for money from congress.
In fact back in the day it was public knowledge. Only congress remained blind.
Our joint favorite reporter, who passed away recently, wrote about it extensively. God bless Parry.
W. Bush pardoned Ollie North, by the way.
I am always blown away by the fact these assholes keep straight faces.

Posted by: dan | Jun 21 2018 19:59 utc | 5

Thanks Karlofi @3
I am not to good on the important detail, but still see the general picture! I need to remind myself of these insane realitys also hope ditto for others! I love all your comments by the way. Am detecting a 'sea change in public perception, so am optimistic. I'd love to say the same about nations ! Surly they must see the truth.if a few stood up to USA a lot more I hope would follow.that would be the line of least blood shed for all.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 21 2018 20:02 utc | 6

Any de-escalation zone agreed to by Russia is always conditional on Al Qaeda and ISIS being cleared from that zone by the locals. Although the US may try to claim AQ in the south as moderates, the protected south western ISIS pocket on all maps remains unchanged. If my memory is right, Russian military maps at one stage showed and area for a southern de-escalation zone but US were claiming a much larger area was included.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 21 2018 20:15 utc | 7

james @4--

No, it's no longer in effect due to terrorist attacks on civilians and SAA. Indeed, it died almost as soon as was born. Outlaw spokespeople always tried to make the area bigger than it was and still operational when it wasn't. Best source for all this is Russian Ministry of Defense's press conferences and detailed presentations. Second would be Foreign Ministry's Zakharova's weekly pressers. Sorry, but no time to look for proper links. You'll need to trust me!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 20:21 utc | 8

@7/8 - peter and karlof1... thanks guys!

Posted by: james | Jun 21 2018 20:46 utc | 9

Here in the home of the free, USA, they have been separating families of border crossers and imprisoning children for profit. This is performative cruelty for the Deplorables who have a bloodlust against Mexicans and other non-white "undesirables". The flow of people over the Southern border is driven mostly by 1. NAFTA wrecking of Mexican agriculture, beloved of the ruling classes, 2. The 10 year running Drug War in Mexico fueled by American guns and insatiable appetite for drugs. 3. Constant US meddling in affairs of Latin American nations and hostility to governments who want to improve the lives of their citizens.

The total and absolute indifference to the millions of dead, maimed, incarcerated, tortured, displaced, etc. both at home and abroad has finally made me give up on this nation in which I was born. There are many good people in this country, but the prevailing attitude of the majority in the so called "heartlands" is a radical lack of compassion for anyone perceived to be an outsider. The stupidity and callousness of the coastal neoliberals is well documented at this blog, and if anyone is curious, most of the rural mopes (the so-called Real Americans) are just as wicked and soulless but without the fig leaf of a fancy education. There is something really wrong with this country, and the fact that the cruelty of America is being juxtaposed with Russia welcoming the whole world for a celebration of sportsmanship and cooperation is very telling. I hope sincerely there is some change in the psycho-social makeup of the USA soon.

Posted by: Almand | Jun 21 2018 21:10 utc | 10

A late comment on the southern Syria situation - I wasn't free before.

I'm sure the current idea of an offensive is limited to East Deraa, clearing the area east of the city of Deraa, unless it is felt that Israel is not going to defend the jihadis on the cease-fire line. Touch-and-go. Israel indicates that it's going to defend the jihadis, and no attack will take place. Reserved till later.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 21 2018 21:11 utc | 11

Syria getting backstabbed by Russia,

Trump eyes July meeting with Putin as Bolton expected to arrive in Moscow

US-led airstrike ‘kills 8 people’ in Syria’s Deir ez-Zor – state media

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 21 2018 21:17 utc | 12

zanon, are you standing in for paul? i might have to skip reading you too, lol...

Posted by: james | Jun 21 2018 21:29 utc | 13

Mark2@ 2: Here ya' go Mark:)

Posted by: ben | Jun 21 2018 21:31 utc | 14

Yesterday, Putin met with UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres. Unfortunately, the Kremlin's recap of the meeting's currently incomplete, but what is recorded is instructive:

"Of course, we look at the Russian Federation as a founder of the United Nations and as a permanent member of the Security Council, but I would say that at the present moment we look at the Russian Federation as an indispensable element of the creation of a new multipolar world.

"To be entirely frank, these are not easy times for multilateralism and not easy times for the UN. And I think that after the Cold War and after a short period of unipolar world we are still struggling to find a way to have a structured, multipolar world with multilateral governmental institutions that can work. And this is something that worries me a lot and is something in which, I believe, the Russian Federation has a unique role to play."

Considering many think Guterres just an agent for the Outlaw US Empire, maybe his cited words will cause a reassessment. I'd like to know what followed. Apparently there was some discussion about Korea and the economic initiatives being openly discussed since RoK President Moon will arrive in Russia tomorrow.

Lavrov met with Guterres today, and his opening remarks shine a bit more light on what was discussed:

"As emphasised by President Putin, we have invariably supported, support, and will continue to support the UN, this unique universal organisation. We think highly of your intention, Mr Secretary-General, to raise the profile of the United Nations in world affairs, particularly in settling regional conflicts. As you noted yourself at the meeting in the Kremlin yesterday, this is largely dependent on the general state of the international system as a whole and the UN member states’ readiness to act collectively, jointly, rather than unilaterally, and to pursue the goals enshrined in the UN Charter rather than self-centred,[sic] immediate aims.

"We note that you have consistently advocated the pooling of efforts by major players to deal with world problems. This is the logic of the UN Charter, specifically its clauses on the creation and powers of the UN Security Council. I hope that based on the values we share we will be able to successfully continue cooperation in the interests of solving international problems."

Lots of emphasis on the absolute necessity of making the UN Charter whole again and not allowing any one nation to make a mockery of it by pursuing its "self-centered, immediate aims."

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 21:32 utc | 15

ben @14--

Thanks for supplying that! I thought I had that link stashed somewhere.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 21:35 utc | 16

And Cohen goes on sucking MBS' behind, with his usual twisted and rambling writing and this time putting it on Saudi women to effect change. Should be a fun parse if b has a go at it.

Posted by: fx | Jun 21 2018 21:48 utc | 17

Ben @ 14
Thanks Ben. Yep that's what l thought reality would look like, that's my sanity safe for a while longer. Remember we are not alone!
Zanon @ 12
That is a perfect example of 'fake news' we can spot it here ! Or are we here now msm!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 21 2018 21:54 utc | 18

"Syria getting backstabbed by Russia,"

Unfortunately the kind of stupidity you often see on MoA.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 21 2018 22:03 utc | 19

@2 Mark2 'Could someone remind me the amount of country's America have invaded since the last world war '

Perhaps as relevant a question is how many countries are presently enjoying the beneficence of U.S. military operations?

According to Seymour Hersh in a recent interview on Democracy Now: " The United States is conducting war in 76 countries now."

Seymour Hersh on Torture at Abu Ghraib & Secret U.S. Assassination Programs

This confirms a recent statement by Sen. Bernie Sanders: "meanwhile we are "fighting terrorism" in some 76 countries...'

The Jimmy Dore Show - Bernie’s Amazing Foreign Policy Smackdown

Posted by: pantaraxia | Jun 21 2018 22:06 utc | 20

Almand no. 10

Here in the home of the free, USA, they have been separating families of border crossers and imprisoning children for profit. This is performative cruelty for the Deplorables who have a bloodlust against Mexicans and other non-white "undesirables". The flow of people over the Southern border is driven mostly by 1. NAFTA wrecking of Mexican agriculture, beloved of the ruling classes, 2. The 10 year running Drug War in Mexico fueled by American guns and insatiable appetite for drugs. 3. Constant US meddling in affairs of Latin American nations and hostility to governments who want to improve the lives of their citizens.

You do understand, don't you, that those policies which have eviscerated Latin America were not undertaken by those you call "deplorables", but by an elite bipartisan consensus of democrats and republicans?

I live in a "deplorable" county in a "deplorable" state--my rural overwelmingly white Iowa county voted for a democrat for president in every single election beginning in 1984 (they weren't even Reagan democrats!) including twice for Obama. In 2016 for the first time in 32 years they voted for a repub, Trump. Why? the dems offered no alternative to the status quo which has seen manufacturing, good jobs leave, and a 13% pop loss in 10 years. In fact the dems blessed that status quo (America is already great!). And most of those I know who voted for Trump voted that way despite his racial demagoguery, not because of it. They felt, and feel, hopeless.

Posted by: sleepy | Jun 21 2018 22:10 utc | 21

I'd Like this made into a poster! From Southfront's reporting about a RICO lawsuit filed against Clinton and Co. Quite the charge sheet, although it lacks several crimes.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 22:19 utc | 22

Pantaraxia @ 20
Wow that doubles what I was already shocked about ! And then of course there's the comercal operations destablising country's using greed as a weapon. Plus the banks, I'm sure South Africa would have been a real success if they'd kept the banking curuption out. Time for immoral capitalism to fall.
Also don't you just hate victim blaming.There that's me done. Grrr

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 21 2018 22:36 utc | 23

@karlof1 (21)
Unfortunately not suitable for a T-Shirt; too much detail.
Though very succinct & right on the money.

Posted by: bjd | Jun 21 2018 22:39 utc | 24

10 Shut up about Deplorable hating brown people or Mexicans. We are all poor and scrape by, two jobs, exhausted and no time for a real social life and hoping for a real change. We have nothing. So we cling to our Bibles and Guns cuz it's all we've got. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Deplorables are proud of this badge of honor given to us by the Beast woman, whose husband sold us out. We are that poor boy in Appalachia, that desperate indian on the Res or that black young man dodging bullets, empty and needles in the ghetto, while walking by the spectre of a what used to be a woman on the dirty sidewalk puffing on mollie and marijuana, looking at you, telling you "this where you end up when love dies", WE ARE ALL PHUCKING DEPLORABLES, and proud of it. We are the salt of this GOD DAMN Earth, we have been stepped on, shat on, fed garbage food, ignored and now mocked, but Trump has given ALL Deplorables a voice and a chance for revenge on the treachorous political class. Shut your damn mouth.

Posted by: Fernando Arauxo | Jun 21 2018 23:30 utc | 25

@ james | 13

I had a similar thought.

Rightly or wrongly, I've long had the habit of scrolling past regular (familiar) commenters once I find them too obnoxious, ignorant, aggravating, etc. This is a general habit when perusing Internet comments forums, not just here.

I've often wished the "Posted by:" line here was a header instead of a footer. By their fruits shall we know them, but if the author's nym appeared at the top, it would assist the quick-scroll reflex. I suppose the existing format cannot be modified to my preferred version-- but a guy can dream, can't he? ;)

Posted by: Ort | Jun 21 2018 23:50 utc | 26

Fernando Arauxo @24--

Sorry to disappoint you, but Trump's no better, and his GOP allies are worse than most Ds other than "the Beast woman"--great descriptive term for HRC! There's a plethora of excellent reasons why Nader calls it the Duopoly.

What Deplorables must do is stand together in solidarity, form their own political party and elect their own reps, that way they can pass their own laws uplifting themselves at the expense of the 1% that deplores them. It's been done before, but the Populists didn't quite go far enough, trusted the Ds and were betrayed--that's why populist is now a derogatory word meant to smear well intentioned, like-mined people demanding change. How do you think Chavez ever gained power in Venezuela? The little people coalesced and made his Bolivarian Revolution reality, and the forces of reaction are still trying to defeat it--those forces are now led by Trump. Now how's that: Trump's waging economic war against Deplorables in Venezuela. Is he still your champion?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2018 23:59 utc | 27

@24, I am from the American South. The hate is real, and I have experienced it first hand, I know what I'm talking about. Trump has given a voice to himself, hardcore Zionists and war-hawks. The treacherous political class is still in power. He has less respect for the Constitution and human dignity than Obama, which is an accomplishment in and of itself. And like Obama, the psychological fulfilment of having "our guy" in power and the leader's personality cult is the only thing that the common people will get, besides the shaft.

Posted by: Almand | Jun 22 2018 0:30 utc | 28

This was something I posted at SST, as to why the world is circling the drain;

When societies were small, economics was directly reciprocal, but as they grew, accounting became necessary and that is the function of money, as a community voucher system.
The problem is that we all want to save and store these community obligations, which pulls them out of circulation, so it becomes much easier to just add more, than insisting people keep spending them, to keep them in circulation. Yet those extra notes amount to unsupported obligations and so the system periodically collapses.
As an economic circulation mechanism, money and finance are analogous to the body's blood and arteries, just as the executive and regulatory functions of government are analogous to the central nervous system.
As government evolved from tribal leaders and elders, through monarchy, to the semi functional public utility we have today, so too is the economic circulation mechanism evolving.
One basic problem is trying to store the medium. For example, in the body, blood is the medium and fat is the store. It doesn't work to try to store blood, or keep too much fat in the arteries. Cars would be another example, as roads are the medium, while parking lots are the store. It doesn't work to mix them up either.
One way society has found to store excess money is for the government to borrow it back up and spend in ways that support private investment, without competing with it. Unfortunately this makes government borrowing a ponzi scheme, as only further borrowing can pay off what was borrowed, since much of it is spent inefficiently, from welfare to warfare.
Consider that budgeting is to prioritize one's needs and spend according to abilities, but the government doesn't do this. They write up enormous bills, add enough goodies to get the votes and the president can only pass or veto the entire package.
Once upon a time, the line item veto was proposed to deal with this, but it was likely no more than a talking point, as it would have gutted legislative control over budgeting.
One way to get around this would be to break the bills into their items, have every legislator assign a percentage value to each one, put them back in order of preference and then the president draws the line. "The buck stops here."
Yet what would happen to the capital markets, if government debt were to suddenly start shrinking? We would likely find the markets rather dependent on that piggy bank.
Just as a completely theoretical proposition, what if the government were to threaten to tax excess money out of the system and not just borrow it? Other than the complete emotional breakdown of half the population.
Consider that most of us save for the same basic reasons, from raising children and housing, to healthcare and retirement. What if we were to invest in these as community assets and not try saving for them individually, with our bank accounts as our economic umbilical cord? On the down side, we would actually have to deal with all those other people we try to studiously ignore, but on the up side, we would have lass atomized cultures, from learning to deal with those other people. Basically we would be investing directly into strong communities and healthy environments, through reciprocal economics, rather than sucking all possible value out of them, to store in banks and make bankers the masters of the universe.
Of course, the current situation will blow up and likely disaster capitalism will come home to roost, as all those bankers trade their treasuries for public assets, from highways, to water systems and parks, public buildings, etc and charge us to use them. Much as has been done throughout the third world, for the last century.
The abyss beckons.

Money is a social contract, holding society together, not a commodity to be mined from society. We can't have government running it directly, any more than the central nervous system is directly controlling the heart and arteries, because it is too easy to print up more money, when times are tough and it becomes a hard habit to kick. Nor does having the private sector in control work, as we are seeing, given the entire society finds itself sucked dry.
Monarchs found they served a public function and when they lost sight of that, they ceased to be in control. Banking will eventually find that out as well, as they have lost sight of their function.

Posted by: John Merryman | Jun 22 2018 1:02 utc | 29

@25 ort... yes - that would be a nice feature of moa, if the name of the poster was at the top, rather then the bottom!

Posted by: james | Jun 22 2018 1:09 utc | 30

@13 james, lol you took the words..

Posted by: Lozion | Jun 22 2018 1:31 utc | 31

The pieces of the Syria puzzle are beginning to fall into place. Thierry Meyssan contributes a big piece with his 6/20 article, "Germany and Syria"

Some of the revelations are nothing short of staggering.

Posted by: Pundita | Jun 22 2018 1:39 utc | 32

@b: I know you're just one man and can't do everything, but it would be wonderful if you could cover the history of hacking accusations against Russia. No one lays out a sequence of events better than you.

Just yesterday, another accusation has been leveled against Russia by the head of Germany’s BfV intelligence agency, Hans-Georg Maassen: German intelligence sees Russia behind hack of energy firms - media report (Reuters). It's a serious accusation, and one would expect a serious proof. However, no proof has been given except that "it fits the Russian modus operandi". Also, the fact that the alleged attack has been named "Berserk Bear" by some unknown Western analyst. Apparently, that's enough proof by today's standards.

There is a critical lack of independent thinking and skepticism in the international computer security circles nowadays. The attributions of attacks to countries are very shaky. Throw in a couple of Cyrillic letters and voilà, you have associated a certain IP address or a certain piece of code with Russia. Somehow these simpleton arguments are uncritically accepted as proofs by computer security professionals the world over, who, of all people, really should know better. It's as if all the supposedly smart cryptographers and programmers are completely oblivious to the concept of manipulation.

Posted by: S | Jun 22 2018 1:49 utc | 33

Bible clutchers. Last time I looked AIPAC in the US consisted of roughly half Israeli's or Jews and half protestant evangelicals. A few years back I read the stats on the religion of US voters by percentage. I think that showed close to 25% of US voters evangelicals.
While looking for those stats to provide a link, I ran onto this WP article on the Trump election and ecumenicals. According to the article, 20% of US voters are evangelicals. That is a huge zionist voting block and the majority voted for Trump.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 22 2018 2:00 utc | 34

Fernando, Almand

You may be interested to know:

Civil Rights Attorney Asked Obama To Close Migrant "Baby Jails" In 2015

Why The "Abject Silence" From The Left About Child Migrant Detentions Under Obama?

This shows how hypocritical and partisan the left is in the U.S. That's because the progressive left has been destroyed. All that's left is the Democratic Party which CALLS ITSELF "progressive" but actually acts in a way that undermines progressive ideals.

karlof1 is right. Revolutions happen from the bottom up. Not by electing those who have been selected to run for office. Both Obama and Trump are faux populists. Both were probably thrust upon us in very slick operations. Proof? In hindsight, their political opponents (McCain, Hillary) were so flawed as to be ridiculous, especially because they were each the very embodiment of an establishment that most people KNOW works against them. In our current, money-driven political system electing a real progressive is virtually impossible.

The establishment agenda is agreed and enacted by BOTH parties:

>> neo-feudalism: low taxes on the wealthy and roll-back of social programs;

>> legal usury: very low interest rates for best credit / very high interest rates to ordinary people;

>> neolib taking of the commons;
Example from the neolib Sith Lord himself: Obamaland Fiasco Worsens

A presidential library became Obamaland... The center will not be a presidential library because Obama’s archives and documents won’t be there there and it won’t be federally run.

[Furthermore] The taxpayer bill for the Obama Center to be built on Chicago’s Southside is now $224 million, not $172 million as initially reported, and it’s certainly not privately funded as initially promised.

>> global hegemony via massive spending on military & spying;
It's for the children. No, not YOUR children.

>> divisive politics to keep lower classes occupied;
Let's talk about bathrooms and statues and "rocketman".

>> militarized police & massive propaganda.
You are now a consumer of government services not a citizen. Have a nice day.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22 2018 2:16 utc | 35

@29 @25 @Everyone who needs it

Having the username below the comment does serve a very important purpose - it puts forward the idea before the man.

Eitherway, here's "Barfly Tools v0.1" to:
- Move the poster bar to the top.
- Highlight it with a color of choice.
- Hide or color posts with blacklisted names.

You will need the Tampermonkey or Greasemonkey extension on your browser to use it.

Posted by: DriveByCommenting | Jun 22 2018 2:22 utc | 36

PS A better example of the taking of the commons is the recent ending of net neutrality. There's still hope (but don't hold your breath):

The FCC's Net Neutrality Rules Are Dead, but the Fight Isn't

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22 2018 2:23 utc | 37


Some Barfly Tools v0.1 fixes...
1. At the bottom of the script, replace the two occurrences of "username[0]" with "username[1]"
2. Change the blocklist so it looks like this with the caret, dollar sign and brackets added. The exact names go in between as usual:
var blocklist = /^(Example Troll #1|Example Troll #2)$/;


There has been a huge amount of evidence presented years ago by Wikileaks and even mainstream journalists on US intelligence agencies faking viruses, "hacking attacks" and what have you to look like they came from other countries.

My guess with the so-called security experts is that everyone wants to be the next Bellingcat. Peddling propaganda gets you ahead in the system, or crushed like Kaspersky if you don't play by the rules. Every other post on security news sites or blogs these days are unsubstantiated claims of Russia this, China that, North Korea hackers on steroids and anything US-linked is downplayed with "Microsoft/Google/Apple/$corp has already fixed it. Remember to patch/upgrade/take your Kool-Aid!".

Posted by: DriveByCommenting | Jun 22 2018 3:10 utc | 38

@31 Of course Germany has been all in with Syria from the beginning. One need only listen to statements made by Merkel in early 2011 regarding Assad. Germany lacks an independent foreign policy and as a true vassal to the US it pursues American interests in the hopes of benefiting indirectly from the leftover bread crumbs for its industry.

Merkel's visit to Jordan is not a coincidence, it demonstrates support for the weakened Hashemite King pledging some 100 Mio. Euros in additional aid to keep feeding the restless Palestinians and sends an important signal towards Israel and the US. Calling for 'urgent actions' against an Iran with 'agressive tendencies'.

When Trump withdrew from the JPCOA I had ever so small hopes that European business leaders would exert enough pressure to sustain it, but as with sanctions against Russia European economic interests always come second to the geopolitical goals of the hegemon.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22 2018 3:21 utc | 39

ben #14

thanks for the Blum list,

extensive, useful, frightening, and accurate....

3 of the last 4 US coups/overthrown gov't were thanks to Obama/Clinton: Honduras (2009), Libya (2011) and Ukraine (2014) - the attempts against Syria have failed, thanks to russia, iran and hezbollah

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jun 22 2018 3:23 utc | 40

@28 john merryman... i thought the idea of making money like bananas was a good idea... they only keep for so long, before they go bad.. they could build that into money too... if money decayed in value 10% every year - it would be worthless after 10 years.. that way, people would be motivated to spend it, as opposed to trying to hoard it.. charles eisenstein has some good ideas on money!

peter au and karlof1.. further to your comments @7 and 8, here is today's usa daily propaganda press briefing.. one can note the usa and friends are gearing up to do some shit..

"QUESTION: Syria. So in the statement that came out today on the violations for the southwest ceasefire in Syria, it said that there would be serious repercussions for those who continue to violate the ceasefire. So what do those repercussions entail? Can you give us --

MS NAUERT: Yeah. So part of this is we’re not going to preview a particular response the United States Government may or may not decide to take. So that’s first and foremost. I want to be clear that we’ve expressed our grave concerns with the Government of Russia. We’ve also expressed concerns and continue to have conversations with the Jordanians through the Amman monitoring center there.

Secretary Pompeo has raised these concerns directly with Foreign Minister Lavrov. He’s also had conversations with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about this. During the call over the weekend when the Secretary – or perhaps it was on Monday – spoke to Foreign Minister Lavrov, we talked about how important it is, how critical it is, for the mutual adherence to the arrangement, to the ceasefire arrangement, stood up nearly one year ago. This is something that we consistently had talked about, the success that humanitarian aid was able to get in. Lives were undoubtably saved in southwest Syria because of the ceasefire arrangement.

And now we start to see that Syrian regime military and also militia units have violated that de-escalation zone, the ceasefire zone, in southwest Syria. They’ve initiated airstrikes. There have been artillery and rocket attacks, and that’s a tremendous concern of ours."

the same tired meal of arsenic on various topics is available at this link -

Posted by: james | Jun 22 2018 4:06 utc | 41

Thanks james. I have been tossing up which way the US will go and lean towards the US only indulging in vandalism activities, though I wont bet the family jewels on that. My take is that in Syria the US fights for both zion and its own aims. Zion shares the holocaust with Russia and knows it was Russia/Soviet Union defeated the nazi's and liberated the death camps. There is some sort of bond there. Israel does not participate in US sanctions on Russia but there is a conflict of interests in Syria.
Also if Russian military have quietly given red lines to the US military, US will not cross those red lines. Apart from what I think is the fact that Trump/Kissinger want to pull Russia away from China, Trump and the US nationalists that back Trump do not have a fanatical animosity towards Russia

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 22 2018 5:07 utc | 42

An Elite Coalition Emerges Against a Trump-Kim Agreement
June 21, 2018 •

Media coverage of the Trump-Kim summit has highlighted a political reaction that threatens to torpedo any possible U.S-North Korean agreement on denuclearization of the Korean peninsula, says Gareth Porter.

By Gareth Porter

Posted by: mauisurfer | Jun 22 2018 5:26 utc | 43

Excellent and important reporting:

Anthony Bourdain’s State Department Smorgasbord

It's long, but a "must read", including the comments (one of which suggests that Bordain was murdered he was angry about his girlfriend's rape by Havey Weinstein - Bordain began commenting about Weinstein's closeness to Hillary Clinton).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22 2018 5:28 utc | 44

Laguerre, Lozion, James, Laguerre, Ort

One day you condemn John Bolton - next day he's ok since he is talking with Russia, same with Israel,
Israel is bad one day - next day they are fine because Putin talking with them.
You are becoming blind in your defense.
In the reality, Syria do not want neither (talks with US/Israel) since both countries have empowered their aim to topple syrian leader.
To keep Syria intact should be supported, not people, parties, nations trying to weaken it, and there goes US, Israel, Saudiarabia, EU and also Russia.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 22 2018 6:59 utc | 45

Zanon, Paul is MOA's friendly resident troll. A stray dog making the bar his home. Patrons ether kick the dog in the guts, throw it a bone or ignore it, whatever takes their fancy at the time.
Are you trying to usurp Paul's position? Perhaps we can enjoy a good dog fight while at the pub.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 22 2018 7:15 utc | 46

Re: Posted by: michaelj72 | Jun 21, 2018 11:23:19 PM | 39

The Ukraine coup failed as well. Russia won that one easily. The corrupt Porky will soon be driven from office never too be seen again as well!

Posted by: Julian | Jun 22 2018 9:29 utc | 47

An excellent article by Paul Craig Roberts on his website or at Strategic Culture:

The entire western world lives cognitive dissonance


The entire western world lives cognitive dissonance

Paul Craig Roberts at his very best!

Posted by: BM | Jun 22 2018 9:51 utc | 48


Yes, expecting saved money to collect interest is inviting the system to metastasize. The reason money functions is because of its fungibility. Which means we own money like we own the section of road we are on.
A big part of the problem is that socialism, as its thought of today, is just the loyal opposition. It argues the wealth should be shared and everyone should be even, but value needs to be saved as a strong community and healthy environment, not siphoned off in the first place.
There are always going to be different sectors of society, just as the body is composed of different organs, but what we have today is if the head and the heart told the hands and feet they don't need so much blood and should work harder for what they do get. Not only would the extremities die from lack of blood, but the organs would, from too much. That's why the powers that be no longer see themselves as part of society, but parasites and predators, taking all they can. Though even parasites need a healthy host. The greatest danger to capitalism are capitalists.

Posted by: John Merryman | Jun 22 2018 10:34 utc | 49

Peter AU 1 46

Do you back Syria, Iran, Hezbollah in Syria or Russia when it comes to Syria?

EXCLUSIVE-In Syria, a Russian move causes friction with Iran-backed forces - officials

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 22 2018 13:52 utc | 50

Zanon | Jun 22, 2018 9:52:22 AM | 50
Peter AU 1 46

Do you back Syria, Iran, Hezbollah in Syria or Russia when it comes to Syria?

For me; all of the above.
I think Zannon is a good replacement for Paul, no?

Posted by: V | Jun 22 2018 14:18 utc | 51


Since there is a difference one cant have both - it is a blind defense to somehow always support Russia, read my link at 50 to start with: you believe somehow Russia is aligned in the the defense against Syria to keep its sovereignty. They are not, however Syria itself Iran and Hezbollah are.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 22 2018 14:49 utc | 52

On June 22, 2018, the Ukrainian People’s Tribunal sentenced Petr Poroshenko to life imprisonment. In addition to Poroshenko, another 7 war criminals were convicted by the People's Tribunal.

Posted by: alaff | Jun 22 2018 14:59 utc | 53

BM @48

It's not cognitive dissonance when you've made the conscious decision to "go along to get along". Many also accept bribes and favors along the way. (Aren't tax cuts for the rich a form of bribery?)

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair

Essentially, the Western political system is a patronage system on a grand scale. Only plebs with no "skin in the game" can see that the emperor has no clothes.

What PCR calls 'cognitive dissonance' is really hypocrisy.

Syria is a case in point. Europe went along with Saudi-Israeli-Turk plans to topple Assad because they expected to profit from hundreds of billions of dollars in reconstruction projects.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22 2018 16:26 utc | 54

karlof 15, yes, + > others, Guterres has always been pro-Russia from a Russia-hater pov. Note that none of the 5 veto-powers blocked his candidacy (the only ones who could have.) Moscow championed him.

He was, is, overall highly appreciated, more of a Kofi-Annan than a Ban-Ki-Moon. Open-minded and personally affable, approachable, serious; plus his past, the many years as UN high commissioner for refugees, not an easy spot, on the side of the vulnerable, plus tirelessly working, make him almost impossible to discredit … -> a consensus candidate, appointment, -> *well-deserved* all chant.

As a staunch Catholic, A. G. sympathises with ‘other faiths’ (muslims..) which gives him a down-home touch which for ex. the urbane and rather slippery (to put it mildly) Annan lacked. Iirc even that xxxx Samantha Powers endorsed his candidacy.

How important this all is = other topic.

to the old timers i miss slopthrop he was very good

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 22 2018 16:47 utc | 55

Noirette @55--

Thanks for the additional info as I knew very little about him. Hope his successor's of a similar type.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22 2018 17:27 utc | 56

Trump prolongs sanctions against North Korea for another year

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 22 2018 18:12 utc | 57

@ karlof1, #8

"No, it's no longer in effect due to terrorist attacks on civilians and SAA. Indeed, it died almost as soon as was born."

It seems you're wrong. A southern de-escalation zone still in effect, at least formally.

The southern zone of de-escalation was established in May 2017 following the talks in Astana. On July 8, its status and order of operation were clarified during the negotiations of representatives of Russia, the United States and Jordan.


Therefore, if it is assumed that the zone is operating for a year, the southern de-escalation zone will operate at least until July 8, 2018.

Posted by: alaff | Jun 22 2018 19:09 utc | 58



Posted by: Lozion | Jun 22 2018 21:42 utc | 59

alaff @58--

Yeah, a funny de-escalation zone where all the groups, like FSA, are affiliated with Daesh or al-Qaeda, which continued to be legitimate targets for elimination. The aim for all such zones was to provide leverage to local civilians to get the terrorists to leave and allow the locals to reconciliate. In the Daraa region, a rather large number of local leaders were assassinated by the terrorists for attempting such a strategy. The reason for delaying Basalt until after Ramadan was to allow for some further reconciliations, but none happened thanks to the terrorists. So, sure, the zone still exists on paper; but as I wrote, in reality it was a dead letter as soon as it was adopted. The so-called deconfliction zone announced by the Outlaw US Empire around al-Tanf was done unilaterally and not approved by Syria, Russia or anyone else. If they don't leave, they will die for following their illegal orders.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22 2018 22:20 utc | 60

Almand @10--

Notable people are pushing back. Ralph Nader always does so in unique ways.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22 2018 22:46 utc | 61

@42 peter.. thanks for your comments.. it is an ongoing game being played out.. hard to know how it all works, but i relate to your speculation here..

@43 mauisurfer - totally predictable and was discussed beforehand... any way for the evil empire to foil things - no matter what..

@49 john merryman.. i like your last line! i don't know the answer how things change here..

@54 jr.. good quote.. you have used it a few times here before!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair"

@59 lozion.. lol!!!

Posted by: james | Jun 22 2018 23:36 utc | 62

I believe that Washington’s withdrawal from the United Nations Human Rights Council has more to do with things the US plans to do than the things Israel recently did in Gaza. Hell on earth will be ratcheted up for the Palestinians until they beg to accept 'the deal of the century'. I've acquainted it to a 21st century: "FORTY ACRES AND A MULE"

"a phrase echoed throughout the South in the aftermath of the Civil War, asserting the right of newly freed African Americans to redistributed lands—particularly those plantations confiscated by U.S. troops during the war—as compensation for unpaid labor during slavery."

Last week Daniel pointed us to Noem City. Somehow Cambridge Analytical failed to present that little detail of Candidate Trump's platform to my particular device. I feel deceived; but knowing about it clarifies a lot of recent events for me. Is it now too far of a stretch to ponder if a free flat in Trump Towers of Noem City, Egypt plus a job dealing blackjack for Trump Casino of Noem City, Saudi Arabia (a short bus ride across the new Red Sea bridge) might be the "FORTY ACRES AND A MULE" offered? MAGA

Posted by: mrd | Jun 23 2018 0:12 utc | 63

Pundita @32. Interesting article by Meyssan.

Over the years, I’ve found some of his work insightful and well documented, and others… well not.

Right below that article is another one of his Trump apologetics. His claims about Trump have been so outlandish… so opposite of all evidence… that I really have to wonder what is the objective.

A selection of “greatest hits” from “What is Donald Trump’s position?” by Thierry Meyssan

“…demanded a return to the original compromise of 1789 – the Bill of Rights…”

This consistent claim that the Trump Administration is uniquely restoring our Constitutional Rights is absurd. Do I need to list the increases in illegal surveillance and prosecutions in direct assault on our 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments? What about continuing the abolishment of habeas corpus? Kill lists? Fighting wars without Congressional vote? Expanding “Civil Forfeiture” to apply to anyone the Executive chooses (and which “Q” cheers).

“He immediately put an end to the « colour revolutions » and other coups d’etat…”

Well, except for the ongoing operations in Syria, Venezuela and Ukraine. Oh, and now we have Nicaragua, too.

“…his Rooseveltian programme for the building of infrastructures…”

LOL. Quite the opposite of FDR’s Kensyian program of creating government projects to employ workers and build infrastructure we are all still benefiting from today, Trump’s plan is to privatize public works. He’s already given away valuable resources on Federal land.

“…to dissolve NATO,…”

Which he did by… demanding NATO countries spend more (which they almost all have now)? By increasing US funding by $tens of billions? By already adding more troops near Russia’s border, and calling for 30 all new battalions, 30 new war ships and 30 new air squadrons? By carrying out more and larger “drills” than ever before? By convincing more countries to “join” NATO?

I wish someone could explain why someone as bright, and with as much potential as Meyssan can write such delusional stuff.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 23 2018 3:13 utc | 64

karlof1 @61. I still loves me some Ralph. Campaigned for him twice.

In the article, it notes, "Michelle Obama retweeted that, adding, "Sometimes truth transcends party."

Sometimes? So, other times party transcends truth? Well, glad to see her admit it.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 23 2018 3:17 utc | 65

Daniel @65--

Worked for the Greens during 2000 in California. Did platform work and other efforts to build party. Met Ralph several times during campaign; quite a wise, articulate man jammed full of facts. Good to know you worked for him too!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2018 3:25 utc | 66

@10 why are you blaming USA for all of Central and South America's problems? Yes, USA shares blame for past policies, and yes it's biting us in the ass, maybe even justifiably in some respects, but illegal entry is a public safety and public health issue. Furthermore, USA is a high resource-use society, per-capita, so all additional entries into this country means additional resource consumption, additional strain on our social system, etc.
Sensibility must reign, and Trump is taking a hard line because he feels like he's the only one that has the political courage to do something about it.

Also, central/south America is not an innocent party. There is corruption and mismanagement in those regions, and overpopulation as well

Posted by: aaaa | Jun 23 2018 5:04 utc | 67

Karlof1. Here's a good article on that Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline you referenced earlier.

It would provide an alternate for Russia to avoid a pipeline through Syria to Europe. And, it would give Russia (in coordination with China) more influence in south Asia.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 23 2018 6:11 utc | 68

"Also, central/south America is not an innocent party. There is corruption and mismanagement in those regions, and overpopulation as well"

South America is THE most under-populated continent. Unless it were Africa.
Mexico is particlarly under-populated inasmuch as there are 20-30 million men up working in the United States. It is a truism that Mexico is rich in material resources with two ocean frontages and vast mineral wealth and economic potential. Malthusian pseudo-science nothwitstanding, there is NO scientific basis for bogus claims of "overpopulation".
Germany has at least five times more persons per square kilometer than does México.

As for "corruption" and "mismanagement", more imperial verbage as cover for looting.

"Commerce is the weapon... the all powerful arm with which we have entered in earnest, with every prospect of success, upon the conquest of Mexico."

El Paso Bureau of Information 1888

"The people of Mexico will have to be supplanted by another great race which is gradually being done, before any great development can be expected there."

James Stillman 1890 (prominent New York merchant and National City Bank investor also half-owner of the ferry company that owned riparian rights to the Rio Grande River between the United States and Mexico from the Gulf coast inland.)

Posted by: Guerrero | Jun 23 2018 6:45 utc | 69

My question to b, the owner of this site. What is your opinion on the #linktax the EU commissariat just approved and which will soon be voted on by the European Parliament? From what I understand, web sites like this one with an active poster base will have to:
- Install some scripts/bots that detect copyrighted material (text snippets on this very forum for example) that might violate copyrights. In essence this means a type of backdoor as those scripts will need to be kept up to date and will probobably be another "free service" offered by the likes of Google, Amazon, ... .
- Every link posted on this web site (even those who have a link attached to their nickname) will need to be paid for. You link to some fake news site (NYT, Guardian, Fox News, ... ) as proof? You pay!

Unless I misinterpreted the information, some links I post and which b soon might need to pay for:
What the heck is ancillary copyright and why do we call it the Link Tax?
We want a copyright law for creativity, not corporates.

Posted by: xor | Jun 23 2018 7:06 utc | 70


There's lot of evidence of this blindness, just today,

Syrian president says talks with US would be 'waste of time'

Why do you support that Russia invite Bolton for talks on Syria, Iran, Hezbollah when the exact same parties are against these talks since it hurts their cause to defend Syria?

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 23 2018 8:22 utc | 71

@ Guerrero 69

"Malthusian pseudo-science nothwitstanding, there is NO scientific basis for bogus claims of "overpopulation".
Germany has at least five times more persons per square kilometer than does México."

Yes, and even more importantly, and as "aaaa" himself admits about Americans, Westerners are the ones with a grossly unsustainable lifestyle footprint. So they're not only often more numerous per square mile than many parts of the South, but each Westerner equals many Southerners in terms of destructive impact.

It's those living the Western middle class lifestyle who are grossly overpopulating the Earth, indeed destroying it. Compared to that the Southern ecological impact is minor. Not to mention that all the worst environmental insults across the South are driven by Western globalization and Western militarism.

Posted by: Russ | Jun 23 2018 10:48 utc | 72

Realit check: unless we're talking about hunter-gatherer areas, there is NO part of this planet who is truly "under-populated". Doesn't mean every country is grossly over-populated, but most obviously are. Then, of course, we have to take into account demographic growth and fertility rate - which are thankfully slowing down in many countries. Any society which has a positive demographic growth and a technological level above medieval agriculture does follow an unsustainable lifestyle, nowadays - this might change in the future, but will need significant societal shifts and technological breakthrough.
It is just foolish, wrong and uninformed to blame only Southerners/Third-worlders for overpopulation and out-of-control growth or to blame only Westerners for massive waste and over-consumption of resources. We have to tackle both at the same time, or we're all dead.
The West is full of it when it claimes to fight resource wastes and to promote sustainable lifestyle, because when you look at it seriously and closely, you see the efforts are lukewarm at best, and are very partial. Energy-wise, it is a sad joke, and Western countries are nowhere near their stated goal, and won't achieve them. Not to mention that most Westerners don't give a crap about any of it. More did in some past decades, but major financial and economic crises made sure that people would forget long-term survival of the species and focus on short-term issues of lesser global importance.
The same way, it is dead wrong to portray the global South as mere victim, a mass of billions of innocents who never harm the environment, or are pushed to it by Evil West; only people who never spent more than a couple of days in 3rd World Holiday Inns could believe this or state it honestly. They're humans, and just like Western humans, most don't give a fuck about animals or the environment. Roads across African and SE Asian countryside are literally littered with plastic bags, species are poached like there's no tomorrow, and the only thing limiting (or slowing down, for now) the negative impact is that they don't enjoy yet Western lifestyles and can put the full might of modern technologies to bear down on the natural world - but in places where they can, it is just as bad as it is in Europe, US or Russia - not to mention that the pressure doesn't just come from globalizing West, but also from globalizing China, which at times pisses off the locals just as much as the US does in other places.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 23 2018 14:01 utc | 73

I believe that Washington’s withdrawal from the United Nations Human Rights Council has more to do with things the US plans to do than the things Israel recently did in Gaza. -- mrd 63.

Who knows, but probably not, as in these are trivialities.

The US has always been flat-out against to reluctant on any topic of *Human Rights.* To be expected from a country whose culture is supremely individualistic and thus authoritarian - ‘rights’ are seen as privileges or advantages that can only be bargained for in a transactional manner (see Trump for ex. who is applying precisely that schema) or won by means such as domination, coercion, the gun, etc.

In this pov, ‘rights’ cannot ever be attributred as an inherent characteristic of a person, a family, a village, a society, the overlay of law, etc., nor can ‘rights’ be arbitrarily awarded, ‘on principle.’ (Christianity in the US is so perverted it is of no succor imho.)

Ex. The most popular ‘rights’ convention, the Right of the Child, has been ratified by all except the USA and Somalia. The world agrees; in part because the US model cannot, by the very nature of human life, be applied to children who are powerless, have nothing to transact, can’t nuke or shoot. (Btw, many of the statements concerning the legality about the ‘separated at the US border’ children of ‘illegal’ immigrants are BS because of this fact.)

Rather, why was the US ever a participating member in the first place? To be present, of course, which is understandable. N. Haley (20 June 18) points to multiple abuses by other countries and a ‘bias’ concerning Israel…(focussing on it when others are just as culpable, my resumé)..

Which only goes to show that the whole thing is just jockeying for position and sparring in corridors. Smoke free. Heh.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 23 2018 14:08 utc | 74

Noirette says:

The most popular ‘rights’ convention, the Right of the Child,...

i'm really extrapolating here, apologies, but i couldn't resist, thinking of the children...

these boys are from your neck of the woods, 16 minutes, wear headphones,

they cook!

Posted by: john | Jun 23 2018 14:53 utc | 75

The business of war:

Posted by: ben | Jun 23 2018 14:58 utc | 76

"Stealing Elections via Voter Suppression: Supreme Court OK’s the Practice
June 22, 2018
Investigative reporter Greg Palast says that the Supreme Court’s recent decision approving Ohio’s process for purging voter registration rolls legalizes a process of disenfranchising minorities across the country. However, the case is far from over."

From TRNN:

Posted by: ben | Jun 23 2018 15:55 utc | 77

- The former US ambassador to Canada, Mr. Bruce Heyman, gave a truly excellent analysis/insight of the situation with the Trade wars. And on his views on the situation in the White House.

or search YouTube with the words:

"Bruce Heyman BNN"

Posted by: Willy2 | Jun 23 2018 16:58 utc | 78

@71 zanon. any meeting with putin and boltedshutbrain isnt going to matter. things take a long time to come to completion.. the conflict with regard to the usa going rogue is one of them. any conversation between them is about as relevant as my conversation with you.

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2018 17:02 utc | 79

@73 above: "Reality check: unless we're talking about hunter-gatherer areas, there is NO part of this planet who is truly "under-populated."

A true hunter-gatherer society becomes over-populated as the roots and rabbits run out.
Unless such a society hurried-up and discovered top soil, it would soon become extinct.

"Doesn't mean every country is grossly over-populated, but most obviously are. Then, of course, we have to take into account demographic growth and fertility rate - which are thankfully slowing down in many countries."

IMO, The fact that a national fertility rate is reducing is NOT any kind of good sign.

"Any society which has a positive demographic growth and a technological level above medieval agriculture does follow an unsustainable lifestyle, nowadays - this might change in the future, but will need significant societal shifts and technological breakthrough."

This is a pessimistic view IMHO. In this Universe, a lot is possible!

Indeed, technological breakthrough and significant societal shifts are
the content of the history of the economic development of the human race.

Posted by: Guerrero | Jun 23 2018 17:39 utc | 80

- It seems the "Deep State" isn't "too happy" with the meeting of Trump with Kim Jung-Un.

Surprise, surprise. Because too many people are actually very happy with the current situation and don't want to relax the tensions in the Far East. e.g. the "Military Industrial Congressional Complex".

- My personal analysis was and remains that all countries (US, Japan, China, (South Korea ???) & Russia) involved in the problem called "North Korea" never had an interest in actually solving this problem. And so the problem continues to exist for the foreseeable future. Sad, very sad.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jun 23 2018 17:42 utc | 81

Jackrabbit | Jun 22, 2018 1:28:06 AM

Thanks for the link to the Boudain article. I'd semi articulated thoughts along the same lines while watching a few of his shows and reading a few pages of his book, before being disgusted in both cases, then hearing a little of the drama surrounding his late demise and what's to be done about the suicide epidemic, as if it weren't quite obvious that the situation on earth is dire when you've got the end of nature and the dying of oceans and so in. Indeed the article goes into much more research and detail than I could ever find the energy to muster at this date.

Was slothrop (Gravity's Rainbow) the person who swore every other word and got banned? I don't consider myself an old timer unless it's longer than 50 years! Well I thought slothrop the one or the other or both of them were really good regardless! the individual who cursed constantly was so amusing I found it difficult to find any offence. . .

Posted by: Geoff | Jun 23 2018 17:46 utc | 82


You didn't say a thing which isn't driven by Western pathologies forced upon the South.

I will modify my statement to denounce civilization as such as being unsustainable and rapacious toward the Earth and humanity. It has produced nothing but desert and death everywhere it's existed. Nevertheless my comment was referring to current political fights over the environment, immigration and such, and the fact is that it's the West driving the current ecological cataclysm.


A true hunter-gatherer society becomes over-populated as the roots and rabbits run out.
Unless such a society hurried-up and discovered top soil, it would soon become extinct.

Yeah, that's why hunter-gatherer societies were sustained for hundreds of thousands of years with healthier people living better lives - greater leisure, freedom, social status for women, etc. - while agriculture has never been anything but the great death knell for the Earth and for the vast majority of people.

Indeed, technological breakthrough and significant societal shifts are
the content of the history of the economic development of the human race.

On the contrary, these have driven the destruction of the Earth and humanity, and today seriously threaten to exterminate both. Only steady-state hunter-gatherer societies ever have been ecologically sustainable. We can only pray that the technocacy's collapse happens fast enough that there's something left for humanity to rebuild upon.

Posted by: Russ | Jun 23 2018 18:06 utc | 83

@69 If you deny the principles of Malthus, then I don't see much reason in debating further. Ultimately, Americans do not accept illegal immigration, and Trump most certainly does not accept it, and, thus, taking a hard line, and does not appear to be deterred by the moans from opponents over it.

Posted by: aaaa | Jun 23 2018 19:29 utc | 84

Some people can't accept reality. 7.6 billion of us on the planet now. Europe having trouble accommodating hunter/gatherers. China building infrastructure hand over fist.

Everybody wants the Western goodies.

Ironically the only people who want to get by with less are the offspring of materialistic Westerners.

Posted by: dh | Jun 23 2018 19:46 utc | 85

85 Needs a lot of ideological factual blindness to assume this.

Highest net migration rates per thousand inhabitants were British Virgin Islands, Luxembourg, Qatar, Cayman Islands, Singapore, Bahrain, Anguilla ... for various reasons.
Nothing compares to the stampede of the rich fleeing western taxes.

Britain's net migration rate had halved the year before Brexit compared to 2010.

Germany's has more than halved since 2000.

Taking Germany as example most emigration takes place to other Western countries. Most immigration to Germany comes from European countries.

So Westerners might want Western goodies but other people rather don't.

And even Europeans .... latest news from German fields are that farmers find it difficult to bring in the harvest as seasonal workers from Romania and Poland find better jobs at home. Next step will be the European integration of Ukraine to work on German fields as West Balkan states have already been emptied of their workforce.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23 2018 21:13 utc | 86

The parson Thomas Malthus' predictions have been proven false, time and again.
I don't think Malthus' "work" is at all properly scientific (or prophetic, whatever).

"The power of population is indefinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man".[5] As an Anglican cleric, Malthus saw this situation as divinely imposed to teach virtuous behaviour.[6] Malthus wrote: That the increase of population is necessarily limited by the means of subsistence, That population does invariably increase when the means of subsistence increase, and, That the superior power of population is repressed by moral restraint, vice and misery.[7] Malthus criticized the Poor Laws for leading to inflation rather than improving the well-being of the poor."

Inflation is the bane of bond-holders. Inflation does NO harm to indebted people!

Is there a scientific justification for Malthus' opinion? None that I am aware of.

I thought Malthus a "talking-head" for the British imperial buy-sell economic method.

WHEN was this old hoaxter revived from his deserved place in the dust bin of history?

Posted by: Guerrero | Jun 23 2018 21:33 utc | 87

"Some people can't accept reality. 7.6 billion of us on the planet now."

The "carrying-capacity" of the Earth is unknown.
It would be a function of technology and education.

"Europe having trouble accommodating hunter/gatherers."

Hunter-gatherers died out when they didn't adapt.

"China building infrastructure hand over fist."

Yes! Schools, Ports, Rail, Communications, Museums, Bridges, Locks, Dams, Roads...

"Everybody wants the Western goodies."

What "everybody wants" is a house and to educate (raise) one's children.

"Ironically the only people who want to get by with less are the offspring of materialistic Westerners."

Daydreamers. This would be a feature of "decadence", rather than of enlightenment.

Posted by: Guerrero | Jun 24 2018 0:25 utc | 88

Thanks, Guerrero for fighting the good fight. A while back these eugenicist overpopulation-mongers were here, and I posted a whole series of links from a range of sources showing how various of their claims are BS.

It included the UN report that we could feed all the hungry on earth for a lousy $30 billion per year more. And that's using the current wasteful methods to produce our wasteful diets.

Then I showed that we could reduce the amount of land used for food production by 2/3 by switching to a plant-based diet. At the same time, that would reduce greenhouse gas production by a similar amount.

And I got no response, but the same false claims crop up again. This looks like deliberate disinformation.

Clearly there is some maximum population a finite earth can handle. But if we switched to sustainable methods of producing sustainable products, we could all live in relative comfort and security. Only greed prevents that from happening.

Posted by: Daniel | Jun 24 2018 2:08 utc | 89

Maybe a good time to look at some typical Americans enjoying burgers in Mexico...

Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2018 2:56 utc | 90

sorry, but i mostly relate to what clueless joe @73 says... i personally think we are headed over a cliff with the approach being taken towards the planet at present.. it is nice to know some are much more optimistic then me, but i am sorry, but i don't share in the optimism..

Posted by: james | Jun 24 2018 4:02 utc | 91

james | Jun 24, 2018 12:02:53 AM | 90

We're at the Road Runner moment; we already went off the cliff, but don't yet realise it...

Posted by: V | Jun 24 2018 4:29 utc | 92

The U$A's "illegal immigrant theater" is a show for the morons. If they were serious about illegal immigration they would stop employers from hiring them. The rest of the industrialized world controls immigration through employer sanctions, but, not the U$A because we love the cheap labor. Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, hiring them is worse, but TPTB don't enforce the law.

Posted by: ben | Jun 24 2018 5:23 utc | 93

Just one example to corroborate the post @ 93:

Posted by: ben | Jun 24 2018 5:33 utc | 94

And STILL no employers sanctioned...

Posted by: ben | Jun 24 2018 5:34 utc | 95


This is not based on fact. Most immigration and emigration to "Western" countries is from "Western" countries. You find the statistics in the net.

So Westerners might wish for Western goodies but most of other people don't.

Migration flows follow jobs. It is as simple as that.

The "refugee crisis" is a phantom debate in some other type of reality. In the case of Germany - which is needing cheap work badly - definitions of who is a refugee seeking "asylum" and who is here looking for a job have shifted dramatically. In 2015 the second largest group counted as refugees were people from the West Balkans. Since autumn 2015 there is an EU association agreement enabling them to work legally. So by a simple act of redefinition the refugee "crisis" was stopped. German farmers still could not find enough seasonal workers to bring in the exceptionally good harvest this year. The people from the West Balkans I meet in the Frankfurt area are renovating flats, working on building sites and repairing stuff.

The Czech Republic has the lowest unemployment rate of Europe. You bet that the discussion on immigration is different there.

And if you think Malthus - Europe is not part of it. This here is Bloomberg's cool economic summary of Europe's choices on immigration:

The best other European countries can do is demonstrate that Muslim immigrants can be successfully integrated to society's benefit. It's a long game, but if it goes well, hard evidence will eventually convince those who don't understand yet that, unaided, Europe's aging demographics are unsustainable.

There is a steep competition for skilled work in all countries that are doing well economically. Trump is simply bad for the US as a whole. If it was Russia who was decisive in getting him elected is was the most successful act of soft warfare possible. I suspect though it was mainly Hillary Clinton who was responsable.

The anti-immigration stance manipulates the tribal instincts of most people, and now the taboo has been lifted politicians feel free to exploit it to get elected. It has never been an advantage to get rid of human capital - neither in peace nor war.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 24 2018 5:40 utc | 96

China seems to be leading the world in sustainability. From population growth to reclaiming desert sands and bare loess hills, to solar and hydro. There is plenty of sustainable food and water on the planet for the current population and more so long as we don't stuff it up. But that needs an end to wars and unaccountable multi nationals.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 24 2018 5:56 utc | 97

The anglosphere does not want a large influx of darkies, brown people, or yellow people full stop. They do not complain so march about large influxes of European types.
O the other hand, any country will complain about large influxes of people of a very different culture. With smaller influxes, everyone has time to adjust, pick up a bit of each others culture.
It has been very noticeable that in the last decade, the anglosphere (five-eyes) have been encouraging other countries to take in muslim refugees, while taking in very few themselves.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 24 2018 6:28 utc | 98

a few typo's in my post @98 but I think it's still readable...

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 24 2018 6:38 utc | 99


Thats the blindness again, of course talks is going to matter - thats why they are meeting in the first place, we also see what the meeting between Israel/Russia has led to recently and it has been all negative for Hezbollah, Syria and Iran.

Posted by: Zanon | Jun 24 2018 7:31 utc | 100

next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.