Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 29, 2018
British Parliament Confirms ‘Conspiracy Theory’ – Torture and Renditions Continue

On December 13 2005 the British Secretary of State Jack Straw was questioned by the British Parliament Committee on Foreign Affairs about illegal "renditions". Straw responded:

Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States, and also let me say, we believe that Secretary Rice is lying, there simply is no truth in the claims that the United Kingdom has been involved in rendition full stop, because we have not been, and so what on earth a judicial inquiry would start to do I have no idea.

Those who believed in that 'conspiracy theory' were right, finds the British Parliament:

Britain’s intelligence services tolerated and abetted “inexcusable” abuse of terrorism suspects by their American counterparts, according to a report released by Parliament on Thursday that offers a wide-ranging official condemnation of British intelligence conduct in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The committee documented dozens of cases in which Britain participated in sending suspects to other countries that were known to use torture or aided others in doing so — a practice known as rendition.

There has still not been a judicial inquiry into the issue. The parliament report notes that the British government blocked access to relevant documents and prohibited the questioning of many witnesses the parliament inquiry wanted to hear.

Ambassador Craig Murray, who blew the whistle on British complicity in torture in Uzbekistan, notes:

Theresa May specifically and deliberately ruled out the Committee from questioning any official who might be placed at risk of criminal proceedings – see para 11 of the report. The determination of the government to protect those who were complicit in torture tells us much more about their future intentions than any fake apology.

In fact it is impossible to read paras 9 to 14 without being astonished at the sheer audacity of Theresa May’s attempts to obstruct the inquiry. They were allowed to interview only 4 out of 23 requested witnesses, and those were not allowed “to talk about the specifics of the operations in which they were involved nor fill in any gaps in the timeline”.

There is also evidence that the British MI6 outsourced illegal operations to other countries or agencies:

Although British policy prohibited rendition, the committee found, British agents repeatedly aided other countries in sending suspects to places where there was a high probability they would be mistreated. In three cases, it reported, the British paid, or offered to pay, for renditions; in 28, they “suggested, planned or agreed to rendition operations” conducted by others; and in 22, they provided intelligence to enable a rendition to take place.

The United Nations considers such extraordinary renditions to be crimes against humanity. Neither the U.S. nor the United Kingdom has held anyone but a few grunts accountable for their involvement in these crimes.

Murray concludes:

The British state has since repeatedly acted to ensure impunity for those involved, from Blair and Straw down to individual security service officers, who are not to be held responsible for their criminal complicity. This impunity of agents of the state is a complete guarantee that these evil practices will continue.

It seems that impunity is part of the "western values". The CIA, MI6 and the myriad of "special forces" under this or that name continue to use these illegal practices.

The United Arab Emirates were just found to torture random Yemenis in its prisons in south Yemen. U.S. special forces and CIA interrogators are present:

Hundreds of men swept up in the hunt for al-Qaida militants have disappeared into a secret network of prisons in southern Yemen where abuse is routine and torture extreme — including the “grill,” in which the victim is tied to a spit like a roast and spun in a circle of fire, an Associated Press investigation has found.

Several U.S. defense officials, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the topic, told AP that American forces do participate in interrogations of detainee.

Prisoners get isolated, threatened with dogs, waterboarded and more:

They raped detainees while other guards filmed the assaults. They electrocuted prisoners' genitals or hung rocks from their testicles. They sexually violated others with wooden and steel poles.

"They strip you naked, then tie your hands to a steel pole from the right and the left so you are spread open in front of them. Then the sodomizing starts," said one father of four.

The U.S. defense establishment claims that none of its soldiers are "present" when actual torture happens. It also put bridges on sale. The CIA declined to comment to AP.

Some of the chaps the Saudi-UAE alliance or its al-Qaeda allies round up are brought onto (U.S.?) ships off the Yemeni coast where U.S. personal – special forces, CIA agents or their contractors – 'interrogate' these prisoners. To say that they directly torture them is – Jack Straw would say – a conspiracy theory.

Unless some court finally takes up the issues and throws some higher ranking officers and politicians into prison for committing these crimes nothing of this will change.

Comments

dh-mtl @4
BRAVO!!!
Peter AU 1 quoting words ascribed to Karl Rove. I’ve always taken that quote to describe exactly what most of us are doing. We dissect the actions taken by Empire’s actors, “judiciously” as we do. And we often feel so wise and intellectual for analyzing what Empire’s done, and then we prognosticate on what Empire will do next.
But the whole time, Empire is busy planning the next action, which it will then carry out, leaving us to once again “judiciously study” it.
If we are to break that chain, as Scoop Mitzger used to say, “If you don’t like the news, go out and make some of your own.” We must stop reacting and begin thoughtfully and deliberately acting .

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 2:24 utc | 101

Ooops. dh-mtl @74, not “4.”
My laptop still has a broken keyboard, so I’m using a wireless one that provides me with endless bizarre artifacts. And then, there’s my brain. 😉

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 2:26 utc | 102

“Back to the “Venus Project” which someone linked earlier, such high-tech autocratic societies may be a big improvement for most people’s lives. Maybe I’m some sort of Luddite to prefer things like paper ballots, filled out in ink and hand counted multiple times with observers from any interested parties.”

In Mexico, the ballots are paper, they are carefully handled by representatives of the local citizenry including members of various political parties. The people stay until
the count is agreed upon and then the ballots are physically bundled up and sealed with
the signatures of the witnesses to be turned over to federal election commission (IFE).
I haven’t checked out the *Venus Project* yet, now that I have said that, I surely will.
One question that strikes me on any utopian alt-capitalist system: is it self-financing?

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 1 2018 2:34 utc | 103

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30, 2018 1:28:10 PM | 88
“George Carlin was right: It’s one big club – and you ain’t in it!”
When I am able to get into George Carlin’s mindset, I come as close to peace and serenity as possible. To wit: The world is a comic stage, and those of us born in the US have front row seats. Since we can’t really change it, the best thing to do is sit back and enjoy the show…. right up until the end.
But I suspect that was the cynic in George speaking, as in me. Someone said, “show me a cynic and I’ll show you a broken-hearted optimist.” That flickering flame of optimism refuses to be extinguished, and so here we are, railing on and dreaming.
As RFK said, “Some men see things as they are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?”

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 2:59 utc | 104

@ Daniel who aspires to peace and serenity in the face of atrocity after atrocity being swept into the limelight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata
and you could get into creating music like I am trying to do on my RAV drums…….a shrink told me recently in passing that right after we discovered fire came music…..I suspect james can confirm that…..

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 1 2018 3:47 utc | 105

Daniel 100
I got to listen to some aboriginal stories a few years back. There would be stories relating to particular landmarks in there country and there were stories for landmarks that marked the boundary of their nation. All of these stories were mixed in with spirits, and a think an event took place at each of these landmarks and they are memorized in that way. They believed that all animals and people left a spirit when they died. Their culture was all woven together, they were part of the land and the guidelines for surviving generation after generation on that land was all woven in.
At the time I did not know how far some of these stories go back (rather than stories, they are the laws that they live by and their history).
By chance, I ran onto an article some months ago on the cave rock/paintings not far north of that area. There were two very different styles of paintings. The rougher and newer paintings the locals said were theirs, but the others with finer detail were not theirs and they did not know who had painted them. Old wasp nests over the paintings were carbon dated and the change in painting style was found to have occurred 11000 years ago. According to the researcher, that coincided with rising sea levels in that area that would have started pushing the coastal people inland and caused a lot of upheaval.
Because of the similarity of Genesis to the aboriginal history that marked and memorized events but did not describe them well, perhaps because these events were not fully understood, makes me think genesis is a somewhat accurate oral history. Perhaps distorted through later development and refinement of a religion and changing language, but still markers for major events.
Undersea archaeology looks to be a fairly new thing but a number of sites have now been found around the world. Sea level rise from between 110000 and 8000 years ago was around 100 meters. From what I have read, that was in three stages and each stage was quite fast. Have looked at a few videos on underwater archaeology and it looks like a lot more finds will be made that may fill in some gaps in human history.
I started to look for any underwater archaeology in the middle east/ mena area but not much happening there yet.
One archaeologist has studied it and believes the cradle of civilization is within the Persian Gulf basin. The link is to a pdf download of his study of archaeology, geology, and climate literature.
http://www.academia.edu/386944/New_Light_on_Human_Prehistory_in_the_Arabo-Persian_Gulf_Oasis
He looked into this because about 7500 years ago, civilization suddenly appeared on the Arab shores of the Persian gulf. Buildings, boats, irrigated farms ect.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 1 2018 3:57 utc | 106

Peter AU 1. I’ve never been to China, and have lost track of those I knew personally who had.
Are you suggesting that all the stories we read about Chinese internet censorship are “fake news?”
That could be. We recently discussed here the “fake news” about the “Tiananmen Square Massacre.”
Google got some bad press in the US years back when it was learned that they’d agreed to Chinese censorship policies. Later, they got in some hot water with China.
So, that you had problems using Google in China only leads me to ask one question, “You still use Google?”
But can you report that otherwise, China has a free and open internet?

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 4:17 utc | 107

At the time I mostly used the yandex browser and search, but for some searches I would use chrome browser with duckduckgo.
The only sites I could not access outside China were a few blogs running on google. All western MSM I could access and anything else I would normally read or search for.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 1 2018 5:20 utc | 108

b4real @ 79:
Thanks for your praise – I am very chuffed!
In your post, you state that “it is government that allows the greed and evil of a few to disrupt and complicate the lives of the many”.
I concede that in most countries around the world, that is the case and has been so for far too long. The question though is, in countries that are supposedly democracies or representative democracies, where governments are supposed to represent the will of the people, how did we come to this state? I suppose if you live in the US, there was a point in time – or maybe there were several points in time – when Americans should have changed or reformed the Constitution (so that it would be a fairer representation of what Americans value), changed their political institutions or traditions (for example, getting rid of the Electoral College and replacing it with direct presidential elections) and/or changed the way in which election campaigns are conducted (for example, not allowing private donations to political candidates to run their campaigns and limiting the campaign season to 4 – 6 weeks with campaign season stopping a week before actual elections). Perhaps there should have a second American Revolution. Perhaps Abraham Lincoln should have allowed the Confederate states to go their own way and become independent.
I live in Australia and certainly there have been occasions when we Australians should have objected to, maybe even rebelled against, the direction in which our governments have been sinking to the point where we could be the 51st or 52nd state. But we haven’t. Our apathy results in even more apathy and estrangement from government. Which relationship (as you can guess) is perhaps just how the elites prefer it to be.
Apathy towards government and feeling alienated by it are two sides of the same coin. I guess if we don’t care about what government we have, because we perceive that governments do what they want and don’t have our interests in mind, we end up not participating in whatever political processes we’re allowed to have a say in, and we end up with governments we don’t want and which we feel even more distant from. The more distant we feel, the less we participate, the more government will cease to care about us and becomes answerable to those who manipulate its strings. The estrangement works both ways.
At a certain point, on which side the estrangement began (whether it began with the people or in the government) ceases to matter – political change or reform is required.
You may say this can’t be done. But political change has to be a collective action – no-one can do it on his/her own.
You may feel capable taking on individual thugs or pairs of them in your neighbourhood if they threaten you but can you take on a whole gang of them at once? At that point, maybe you need help: you need a friend or two, you need a neighbour you can trust. You might decide to form your own vigilante patrol group to protect yourselves and your families. You’ve made a political decision, you have become a government (even if temporarily, and for a limited purpose).
Hoping this makes some sense: I’m just riffing off the top of my head, trying not to refer too much to other sources as I normally would.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 1 2018 5:20 utc | 109

Daniel @ 107: I know someone who’s been to China at least twice in the past 12 months and on both occasions he could not post to Facebook as Facebook is banned there. I could talk to him via email on Yahoo though, that was no problem.
I hear Twitter is also banned in China. Apart from Facebook and Twitter, I don’t know of any other social media platform that is banned.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 1 2018 5:29 utc | 110

Jen, I do not bother with Australian politics. We do not have an independent foreign policy and much of domestic policy revolves around foreign policy. We are a somewhat autonomous region of the US with no independent foreign policy and a just a little independence in the area of domestic policy. What is becoming apparent to me lately is that not only a part of the US, we are also locked into UK. A PM, to take up office has to swear allegiance to the monarch of England rather than to their own country, as do the Kiwis and Canadians. I no longer think this is merely ceremonial.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 1 2018 5:38 utc | 111

To those writing about China not allowing Facebook and Twitter
I urge you to consider China’s decision in light of recent findings about the abuse of folks by those “tools”
I wouldn’t touch either with a ten foot pole….why should China import Big Brother?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 1 2018 5:57 utc | 112

Peter AU 1. Your concepts are reasonable, (Oral legends are often more accurate than some written history). But again, you seemed to be taking Bronze Age legends too literally. Are you familiar with The Epic of Gilgamesh and it’s very Noah-like flood story? Check out that book to gain an understanding of the current science/scholarship on the origins of those legends.
As regards The Flood, One marine archaeology study that might intrigue you is “Noah’s Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History” by William Ryan, Walter Pitman.
Basically, they found evidence that what is now the Black Sea had been a valley with a large lake, surrounded by settlements with fishing and agrarian economies. Then, about 7,600 years ago, as sea levels were rising, the Mediterranean suddenly topped the and bridge that is now the Bosphorus strait.
In a very short time, a trickle turned into an enormous waterfall, and that valley was flooded. Water level rose, inundating all those settlements. It happened shockingly fast, but not so fast that most of the people could have walked away.
Later, Robert Ballard did one of his amazing undersea explorations and found all sorts of artifacts, including a sailing vessel with its mast still standing!
In one of my past lives, I devoted a bit over a decade to studying and working as an archaeologist. A childhood fantasy that the fates opened a tiny aperture in my life, which I leapt through.
I had to drop out of grad school when my wife became disabled, but my thesis was on the “peopling of the Americas.” I was convinced that humans arrived in the Americas long before the officially accepted date of ca. 11,000 BP.
I was writing grant proposals to use side-scan sonar to search for shell mounds offshore, at depths of about 300’ to 400’ off the coast of Santa Barbara, to then be followed by dredging for artifacts and diving if possible. Although my plans were never realized, multiple archaeological studies since then have shown that humans were all over the Americas long before the “Clovis People.”
I’ll check out that article you posted. I stopped reading the journals years ago, but still follow up on some research.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 6:33 utc | 113

psychohistorian. Thanks for the recommendation. Making music is magic to me. I picked up the guitar some years ago, and found it deeply moving. But then the musician who was my muse and guide was murdered, and the spirit hasn’t moved me since.
But perhaps I wasn’t clear anyway. I prefer the hot anger of facing reality to the cold comfort of serenity while the world blows up around me. That’s the outlet for my optimism.
Oh, and did you know that Neandertals made music? Flutes have been found that date to 43,000 BP
Of course, that’s a long time after using and even making fire, but still… pretty amazing.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 6:43 utc | 114

@ PeacefulProsperity | Jun 30, 2018 11:45:16 AM | 80
May I kindly remember that a question is not yet answered?
“PS Germany lost the last game in World Cup on purpose, they did not want to win, look carefully again – something’s up on the global geopolitical stage…”
Or is it just some German alt right stuff? Placed into some post-factual environment?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Jul 1 2018 7:49 utc | 115

Daniel, an interesting subject archaeology, where we come from ect. I would pick up stone tools from eroded ground, and the old men would name every tool. From the dating of the cave paintings, a society that had existed for up to 11000 years unchanged until white man arrived. The oldest man in that area could remember his father coming home and describing a white man he had seen for the first time.
Descriptions of how archaeologists who had only studied rocks thought stone age man lived differed somewhat from the reality. In looking into the past, recorded history that pre-dates writing does need to be taken into account.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 1 2018 8:40 utc | 116

@ PeacefulProsperity | Jun 30, 2018 11:45:16 AM | 80
Being not patient enough I had a further look. Using thel ink you inserted
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/study/serco-corporate-octopus-tentacles-wrapped-around-globe/
and looking arund a bit one sees such things, including recommendation for QAnon and simila, ähm, stuff. Like this:
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/galactic/official-dna-results-for-perus-three-fingered-alien-mummy-2/
So, sorry, this is the usual alt right nonsense that we need as urgently as foot fungus.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Jul 1 2018 16:44 utc | 117

Yeah, Peter AU 1, archaeology is really cool stuff…. especially as practiced today with scientific methodologies and technology combined with incorporation of oral histories and “experimental archaeology” and the great interest in the life ways of the commonly lived lives, and not just the “sexy” temples/palaces/big sites.
I do hope you open your mind to look at those suggestions I’ve made, and then follow those threads deeper.
One day, when I was 8 or 9 years old, I got the daily newspaper for my invalid dad. On the front page was a photo of Louis Leakey who had just found the first possible human ancestors in central/eastern Africa, so dad had to wait until I’d consumed it.
Louis was asked why he and his wife, Mary (who actually made the find) had spent 3 decades searching under a scorching sun, where no other scientist thought human pre-history would be found. (“the smart people” either thought humans originated in Asia, or had been sucked into the Piltdown Man hoax).
He answered, “To know where we’re going, we must first know from where we came.”
Along with Mad Magazine, Lewis helped form my lifelong world view.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 18:11 utc | 118

re: “Iraq lost historical artifacts of inestimable value.
The Friends & Relatives crowd will be perpetually pissed with Putin for ruining Christian Colonialism’s plan to loot Damascus.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 29, 2018 1:23:08 PM | 11
Re the looting of the Iraq Museum, do you remember when Bush and co brought in a group of museum curators and had them identify what items of historic value there were in the museum and once they had, they realized that the Bush plan was not to protect the treasures but to steal them? The head of the curator group resigned in protest. Then the museum was looted by a very professional bunch who knew exactly where to look and what to take. These people are locusts from hell.
I remember reading an interview with the head of the Iraq Museum who said he hid the most valuable pieces and only very recently brought a few of the pieces back in.
Every time there is a photo of a member of the Bush/Chaney/etc cabal taken in their home I look very carefully to see if any item there could be an Iraqi artifact.

Posted by: frances | Jul 1 2018 19:51 utc | 119

To Peter AU and any who find themselves able to travel to China. Please log onto whatever ISP is available and do a search for “Tiananmen Square Massacre.”
Then, upon returning, let us know if you can get the same information we get in our (biased, propaganda) Western sources. I mention that one because it is a search term that I’ve consistently read is censored in China.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 1 2018 23:11 utc | 120

Daniel, did not try looking that up from China. Going by the massive amount of western propaganda any search brings, some of it may well be blocked.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 1 2018 23:27 utc | 121

@ hoarsewhisperer 84
Re: If revolution comes to AmeriKKKa it is more likely to come from without, rather than within.
I think that may be true – and it could come as a U.S. style regime change operation courtesy of Russia or China. Could you blame them?
@ Juliana 89
You bring up a good point. Perhaps the community here can agree that there is a world of difference between those who embrace faith as a path of personal enlightenment and those who pursue politicized religion that in reality serves the elites of the world.

Posted by: Citizen621 | Jul 2 2018 1:27 utc | 122

@96 Psychohistorian
“Do you agree that humans are community oriented beasts at some level?”
Yes, but this does not preclude individual sovereignty.
“I am fine to move this to the next open thread…
I think we’re safe, haven’t gotten zapped yet 😉
@109 Jen
“The question though is, in countries that are supposedly democracies or representative democracies, where governments are supposed to represent the will of the people, how did we come to this state?”
Your answer lies in this tale…
It is a 5 minute very entertaining read.
A tale of Davy Crockett
“But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is…
and government became weaponized against its masters.
@109 Jen
“for example, getting rid of the Electoral College…”
Ideas like this are why people scare me… Removing the electoral college is the quickest route to civil war.
America is a republic, not a democracy. To misquote Ben Franklin:
The difference between a democracy and a republic is the same difference as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner and two wolves and a well-armed sheep voting on what to eat for dinner.
Link
Basically, in a pure democracy, the majority has unlimited power, whereas in a republic, a written constitution limits the majority and provides safeguards for the individual and minorities.
To quote Ben Franklin correctly I will relate the following:
At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, Franklin was queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation. In the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention, a lady asked Dr. Franklin “Well Doctor what have we got, a republic or a monarchy.” Franklin replied, “A republic . . . if you can keep it.”
Key words being: “if you can keep it.”
@109 Jen
“can you take on a whole gang of them at once?…”
Realistically, the success rate is not favorable. I like to believe I would make the most of my last few minutes, should it come to that though. I don’t think I’m superman, cuz I’ve sure been knocked the fuck out before. 😉

Posted by: b4real | Jul 2 2018 1:59 utc | 123

Peter AU 1 @121
So, assuming all those reports, and your recognition of the possibility, what are your thoughts on China censoring “fake news?”
How do you feel in general about authorities anywhere deciding what is true and what is “fake,” and then censoring the latter?

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 2 2018 20:19 utc | 124

Peter AU1. I’ve almost finished that fascinating archaeological paper you linked. As regards my point, that claiming that the well-documented sea level rise supports the story of a Noah-character who built a boat to escape “The Flood,” your paper actually makes that claim unsupportable.
To wit: the most rapid period of sea level rise in their study area “…at which times the coastline advanced upward of 1 km/yr in some places.”
That is hardly the sort of speed of inundation that would require building an Ark to flee. That is literally a “snail’s pace.” In fact, that is far slower than the shoreline recession discovered along the Black Sea shores in the studies I linked to.
I hope that’s clear to you now, and that you will follow up on the sources I linked. But that paper is fascinating in its proposal that parts of Arabia/Persian Gulf were continuously occupied since at least ca. 100,000 BP, in contradiction to the wide held supposition that all living non-African populations descend from a group that left Africa some 75,000 years ago.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 2 2018 22:01 utc | 125

Daniel, that is very much tied in with what we know about the US, colour revolutions and how the US has used the internet for this purpose. Can any country the US considers an adversary, or has been targeted for regime change or disruption allow this to run freely.
Our internet is very much restricted through search engines, and also court gag orders. I do not think western nations are under any sort of attack from outside, other than all non US nations being controlled by the US, yet we do not have a free flow of information.
As I said earlier, anything google is blocked in China and I think it was Jen said facebook and twitter are also blocked. All these platforms have been used for the ‘arab spring’ and Ukraine. China have their own social media platforms, weibo is one.
Baidu is a Chinese search engine. If you wish to search for something in Chinese, simply type your search term in in English and it will search Chinese text on the internet. It will also bring up results from social media platforms in China when searching. I have used it a bit in the past specifically to search the internet within China.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 2 2018 22:05 utc | 126

Yep. The US (AZ Empire) has definitely used every medium available to spread propaganda and foment conflict and regime change, including internet, messaging apps, etc.
You look at that and decide that it’s ok for governments to censor information in the name of combatting it.
I’m sort of a free speech nut. I think the only way to combat “wrong’ speech is with more ‘right” speech. If ideas cannot win in open debate, then they deserve to lose. So, I oppose these “Ministry of Truth” groups sprouting around the world, no matter where or by whom.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 2 2018 22:18 utc | 127

Daniel 125
You are coming at this with the predetermined mid set that the earliest parts of the biblical story are completely imaginary. I also used to think that way until I read of the carbon dating of the cave paintings and how the sudden change in paintings was at a time of major sea level rise.
Since then I have been curious to see if there was the possibility of the biblical story actually being a reasonably accurate oral history.
I poked around with searches a few times but did not pick up any lines of research that would indicate the possibility.
This time I had the idea that although most people would have simply retreated ahead the slowly rising waters, some in the initial rises may have retreated to and lived on what became islands. With later rises inundating these high points, anyone living on them would be forced to use a boat to reach land.
To try and narrow down the areas for research I first looked up the Semitic language group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages#/media/File:Semitic_languages.svg
This narrowed down the area where the biblical setting could have occurred.
I then checked out genesis again and fount that Noah’s descendants or tribe had migrated to Mesopotamia from the east which is from the direction of current day Iran. according to the story, a mountain was first sighted which also matches the Persian Gulf shores of Iran.
There are a lot of underwater features in the Persian Gulf, also some in Gulf of Oman and Arabian Sea, that would have been islands after the initial sea level rises and then inundated with the final rise.
It was when searching for underwater archaeology in the area that I ran onto the Rose research in the pdf.
As yet, I don’t think the earliest parts of the biblical story being a reasonably accurate historical record can be be ruled out.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 2 2018 22:51 utc | 128

The CIA have put a lot of research into psyops and are very very good at it. Ukraine, Syria just to name two, are the result of CIA free speech on social media and other platforms.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 2 2018 23:13 utc | 129

Daniel, re China. You really should visit the place if you can. Get away from the international and tourist scene when there. Spend time just wandering around ares where nobody speaks English. It is far from being a police state and oppressed people.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 2 2018 23:36 utc | 130

OMG Peter AU 1. You are a true believer! I must say, I hadn’t suspected that. Your own “evidence” disproves your claim, so you ignore it.
Here’s the plain truth: There is close to zero evidence for any of the foundational Biblical legends. The best that can be said is that some of them were “based on a true story.”
Since you obviously refused to look at any of the evidence I’ve provided for you, I’l try once more. Just in case your faith is anything short of blind.
PBS Nova – The Bible’s Buried Secrets – Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOo1AlrT-Eo
They try to be gentle with believers, but they make quite clear that there is no evidence for any Abrahamic trip from Iraq to Egypt, no Egyptian bondage, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan and no substantial Kingdom of Israel.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3 2018 0:19 utc | 131

Peter, I am not destined to travel anywhere, let alone China. But my value for free speech is borderless anyway. I went round and round with Cuban Revolution supporters about this for decades. I understand the fear of AZ Empire meddling, but remain firm that the way to beat lies is with truth, not cover ups.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3 2018 0:22 utc | 132

@ Daniel. looking at the biblical story along with archaeology, is no more than a curiosity for me. It is not of importance to me if the earliest parts are total fiction or are an oral historical record. I am curious to see which it is.
Judging by your 131 post, it is of great importance to you that it be fiction.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 3 2018 1:01 utc | 133

Peter AU. You made the claim that a Noah character actually existed, “chucked” animals into a boat and floated away to safely land on a mountain top during a “Great Flood.”
I suggested you not take bronze age legends so literally. Of course, you had no reason to suspect that I’m rather well versed in this topic, and the relevant areas necessary to make any claims. So, if simple curiosity was your motivation, you could have asked why I made that suggestion.
Instead, you provided “evidence” for your claim in the form of what I called a “fascinating” archaeological report – which I did really enjoy reading. When I quoted that paper to show it did not support such a claim in the slightest, you ignored that. You continued to posit “the biblical story actually being a reasonably accurate oral history.”
Obviously, you have some investment in your original claims, despite your latest denial. Whether this is a drive to find truth in Bible stories, or simply not wanting to have been shown to have made a rather absurd claim, I do not know.
My interest is in truth. I generally leave people alone with their religious fantasies. But when claims of truth about the physical world are made that are completely inconsistent with reality, I call that out.
If you actually have an interest in understanding the discernible past, I provided you multiple links that would inform you and perhaps set you on a more successful path of further discovery.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3 2018 4:10 utc | 134

Before the advent of writing, most if not all record keeping was done by memorizing and orally passing on the knowledge from generation to generation. Much of this has now been lost especially with the introduction of the Judaic religions where people dumped their own oral history in favor of the hebrew history.
These old oral histories is something I have taken an interest in but you seem to have taken offence at this. You also show a huge ignorance or disdain of cultures that are not your own. you crap on about China without ever having gone there. You show the same disdain for early historical cultures.
Somebody to bounce thoughts off in the subject of early oral history would be good but that somebody is obviously not you. End of conversation.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 3 2018 4:41 utc | 135

Oh dear (no)god! You made an absurd claim. I tried to be gentle.
I already wrote that oral histories are an important part of modern archaeology… I have recorded such histories which now exist in the CA public record.
And your hyperbolic BS about my comments about China are just as irrational as your other ramblings.
But since you have no interest in actually learning anything, I’ll just leave you be.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3 2018 6:22 utc | 136

Daniel, one question as you are a self proclaimed archaeologist. What time did the bronze age in Mesopotamia begin.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 3 2018 6:39 utc | 137

Any idiot could do a web search to answer your disingenuous question.
Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3, 2018 2:22:19 AM | 136
“But since you have no interest in actually learning anything, I’ll just leave you be.”
If your ego cools down, and you’d like to revisit actual evidence, I would be happy to reopen dialogue.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 3 2018 19:52 utc | 138

From post 134 “I suggested you not take bronze age legends so literally.”
and this “Any idiot could do a web search to answer your disingenuous question.”
Bronze age in Mesopotamia from most accounts began around 5-5500 years ago. Rising seal levels occurred between 8 and 11000 years ago. The period I am looking at goes far back from the beginning of the bronze age and advent of writing.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 3 2018 23:56 utc | 139

LOL. Boy oh boy, you sure caught me there. I was referring to the people who wrote down those folk tales. But you sure out-clevered me. Must be a coincidence that I called that question, “disingenuous.”
When you spoke to those stone-age story-tellers, did they actually tell you Noah’s name, or did you get that from some bronze-age scribes?
Good for you for figuring out what anthropologists and archaeologists have known for a century or more. Way up there somewhere I even encouraged you for putting modern archaeological methodologies together (apparently on your own).
Of course some folk tales are, as I wrote, “based on a true story.” Of course memories of the gradual inundation of coastal lowlands were passed on for many generations. You know what else were?
Stories of periodic, catastrophic flooding in the regions where these nomads settled down to an agrarian lifestyle. In fact… now please correct me if I’m guessing wrong here.. but that might be why those regions are called “flood plains.”
And just like in your Biblical tales, those catastrophic floods are usually caused by rain! And the flooding can happen so rapidly that entire communities are drowned. That is, such floods are much more similar to your Noah story than the thousands-of-years long sea rise at the end of the most recent glaciation. And they happened (and continue to happen to this day) all around in the world where people settle down to farm. And oral histories of such floods passed down by people all over could be interpreted by believers to be evidence of a universal, Biblical Flood.
I actually gave you a leg to stand on when I showed you that the flooding of the Black Sea did happen frighteningly quickly. A quick glance at a map will show you that it’s not a long hike from there to the alleged landing spot of “Noah’s Ark.” I don’t necessarily believe that was the main source of the Mesopotamian and Noahide legends, but at least it was a fast inundation within the trade areas of both story-tellers.
Why am I bothering to answer?!? I’ve offered you many sources to explore. Let me know if you actually do, and wish to discuss the actual evidences.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 4 2018 1:01 utc | 140

For some reason you are that twisted up by the need to prove me wrong, and perhaps a need to prove your academic superiority that you cannot even put up a logical argument. You have shown your colours on this thread.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 4 2018 1:51 utc | 141

For some reason, you refuse to admit that the claim I suggested you not take seriously (that there really was a Noah who really did build a boat, “chuck” his animals into it and float away in The Great Flood caused by sea level rise, only to land on a mountain, and spread semitic languages from that point) is… let’s just say, not supported by the evidence.
I keep trying to give you easy ways out. You have way too much ego invested in this.
I quit. Good luck with whatever it is that’s got you so hung up.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 4 2018 3:02 utc | 142

Well I guess we shall have to agree to disagree on this curious though trivial subject.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 4 2018 3:22 utc | 143

Peace, dude.

Posted by: Daniel | Jul 4 2018 4:36 utc | 144

No probs 🙂

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 4 2018 4:39 utc | 145