Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 8, 2018
Trump Ends The Nuclear Deal With Iran – What’s Next?

With a very belligerent speech Trump nixed the nuclear deal with Iran. He also lied a lot in it. Neither is a surprise. The United States only keeps agreements as long as they are to its short term advantage – just ask native Americans. One can never count on the U.S. to keep its word.

Trump will reimpose U.S. sanctions on Iran because:

  • The nuclear deal was negotiated by the Obama administration and thus must be bad;
  • Israel wants to keep Iran as the boogeyman;
  • the Zionists and right wing nuts in the U.S. want the U.S. to attack Iran;
  • MAGA – Trump needs Iran as enemy of the Gulf states to sell more U.S. weapons.

Three European countries, Britain, France and Germany, were naive enough to think they could prevent this. The EU3 offered the U.S. to put additional sanctions on Iran for other pretended reason – ballistic missiles and the Iranian engagement in Syria. I was disgusted when I first read of the plan. It was obvious from the beginning that it  would only discredit these countries AND fail.

Luckily Italy and some eastern European countries shot the effort down at the EU level. They were not willing to sacrifice their credibility over the issue. The nuclear agreement was signed and should be followed by all sides. They pointed out that there was no guarantee from Trump that any additional European effort would change his view.

Over the last weeks some last EU3 attempts to influence Trump were made. They were in vain:

On Friday, Pompeo organized a conference call with his three European counterparts. Sources who were briefed on the call told me Pompeo thanked the E3 for the efforts they had made since January to come up with a formula that will convince Trump not to pull out of the nuclear deal — but made it clear the President wants to take a different direction.

After Trump's statement, the European powers want to issue a joint statement which will make it clear they are staying in the Iran deal in an attempt to prevent its collapse.

The sanctions Trump will reintroduce are not just limiting U.S. dealings with Iran, but will also penalize other countries. That will lead to a flurry of protective measures as at least some of those other countries will limit their exposure to U.S. rules and may even introduce counter sanctions:

“We are working on plans to protect the interests of European companies” Maja Kocijancic, EU spokeswoman for foreign affairs, told reporters in Brussel.

Iran will largely stick to the nuclear deal if the EU effectively defends it and does not hinder Iranian deals with European companies. If the EU fails to do so the nuclear agreement will be null and void. Iran will leave the deal. The neoliberal Rouhani government that agreed to the deal will fall and the conservatives will be back. They will defend Iran's sovereignty at all costs.

The U.S. seems to believe it can go back to the same position Obama had build up in the years before the nuclear deal. Iran was under UN sanctions and all countries, including China and Russia, held them up. The Iranian economy was in serious trouble. It needed to negotiate a way out. That situation will not come back.

U.S. credibility has been seriously damaged. Its soft power is gone. Its hard power has shown to be inadequate in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.

China and Russia are both making huge deals with Iran and are now effectively its protectors. While they have no common ideology all three oppose a globalized world under exclusive "western" rules. They have the economic power, the population and resources to do so. Neither the U.S. nor Europe has come to terms with that.

Iran has not only new allies but gained in the Middle East because of U.S., Israeli and Saudi stupidity. The wars on Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen have all strengthened Iran's position while it largely kept largely out of them. The recent election in Lebanon went well for the 'resistance' camp. Within Lebanon Hizbullah can no longer be challenged. The upcoming elections in Iraq will result in another Iran-friendly government. The Syrian army is winning the war waged against the country. The U.S. position in Afghanistan is hopeless. Saudi Arabia is now in a fight with the UAE over the war on Yemen. The GCC spat with Qatar is still unsolved.

While Israel wants to keep Iran as a boogeyman to divert attention from its genocidal campaign against Palestinians, it does not want a large war. Hizbullah in Lebanon has enough missiles to make modern life in Israel untenable. A war on Iran could easily end up with Tel Aviv in flames.

There are some people in the Trump administration who will want to wage war on Iran. The Bush administration also had such plans. But any war gaming of a campaign against Iran ended badly for the U.S. and its allied states. The Gulf countries are extremely vulnerable. Their oil output could be shut down within days. That situation has not changed. The U.S. is now in a worse strategic position than it was after the invasion of Iraq. As long as somewhat sane people lead the Pentagon they will urge the White House not to launch such an endeavor.

The U.S. withdrawal from the nuclear deal is a huge mistake. Defense Secretary Mattis spoke against it. Will Trump make an even bigger mistake despite the opinion of his military advisors? Will he wage war on Iran?

Comments

@199
It’s a nice dream, but there are just too many Russian Zionists in Israel and Zionist oligarchs in Russia for me to believe it.

Posted by: Circe | May 9 2018 14:19 utc | 201

Circe 198
You seem to have a problem of some kind of paranoia.
The spectacle is certainly for the Russian people.
Of course, and they must be so proud.
For me too – I would like to think so.
But open your mind – use your brain – its a far bigger picture.
This is a message to the world – writ huge in glorious technicolour.
This is Russia.
This is what Russia has and this is the military that will replicate the Eastern Front and the heroics of that time if necessary – should you choose to tangle with us.
Beware,
We are not afraid.
Line up your trannies, Trump, if thats what you have – but this is the military of the motherland/fatherland – these are its children – children of RUSSIA and you cross them if you dare.
Clear as a whistle – not a scrap of ambiguity there.
In your face.
Great.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 14:23 utc | 202

Massive trolling in this thread. Sad to see people bite back. Interesting to measure the general aggression level from real commenters, and how ad hominem suddenly becomes the method of discourse, instead of politely adding information to the rolling discussion, and dealing only with material rather than commenters themselves. I thought the Internet learned long ago how to deal with a troll.
When I see this level of trolling I always look to the source article to see what military action is on the burner, on the theory that soldiers are drafted in to augment the usual forces. Oddly, this one doesn’t deal with any special campaign, merely the strategic catastrophe that the US has caused for itself, and the new possibilities that now open up for Iran and probably EU, or at least Germany, as Europe continues on the path of separation from the US.
It must speak of the huge information budget available to cover the fact that Iran cannot be defeated. This is how the western soldiers fight nowadays.

Posted by: Grieved | May 9 2018 14:26 utc | 203

Regardless of the “4 dimensional chess” Putin plays, and all respect I have for him for rebuilding Russia, and helping Syria, I was dismayed seeing him flanked with a rabid war criminal Bibi on one side, and war criminal wannabe President of Serbia Vučić on the other, during during Victory Day celebrations.
https://www.rt.com/news/426242-putin-welcomes-veteran-security/

Posted by: ex-SA | May 9 2018 14:27 utc | 204

Xi has to see that without Iran as a secure oil and gas provider; China will be at the mercy of financial, military and geopolitical machinations of the Zionist-led Empire.

Posted by: Circe | May 9 2018 14:38 utc | 205

2205
I was dismayed seeing him flanked with a rabid war criminal Bibi on one side,
And didn’t Bibi look joyful (NOT )as he HAD TO WATCH POLITELY the might that could wipe out Israel in two shakes of a lamb’s tail – if necessary.
Couldn’t win against Hezbollah – this must have put the fear of the christian God right up him..
Look whats waitng for you, mate – says Putin – to the bloody killer of Palestinian kids.
Bibi looked utterly sick!
Good.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 14:43 utc | 206

fairleft @200:

Peace between the two Koreas is the #1 thing a realpolitik U.S. imperialist would want to stop.

Well, the movement toward peace in Korea makes for good PR that balances the hostility toward Iran. Trump made full use of that in his announcement.
The end result of the latest Korean peace efforts is still very uncertain.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 9 2018 14:43 utc | 207

@Grieved #204
“Massive trolling in this thread. Sad to see people bite back. Interesting to measure the general aggression level from real commenters, and how ad hominem suddenly becomes the method of discourse, instead of politely adding information to the rolling discussion, and dealing only with material rather than commenters themselves. I thought the Internet learned long ago how to deal with a troll.”
yes, I have been put off by that frequently. I find it bad enough that people toss around terms like “Zionist” and “fascist” rather randomly to describe things they dislike, but when it gets personal, I just go find a more civil site.

Posted by: ralphieboy | May 9 2018 14:52 utc | 208

The legally elected government of Syria invited the Russian, Iran and Hezbollah to Syria to fight IS terrorists or whatever its name. Right now there are more than several US bases not counting latest French bases in Syria. Russia openly supporting Syrians’ Kurd borders with Turkey, Iraq and oil rich eastern Syria. While in the South the Israeli supporting IS in Golan height and occupy sectors. Bibi warplanes continue to bombs’ Syrian’s cities and military sites. Whereas in Gaza Palestine dies or being killed like flies and Palestine’s lands sized by Israel for more settlements.
Am I missing something, Bibi, Putin’s pal openly in Russia’s massive military parade in Moscow?

Posted by: OJS | May 9 2018 14:59 utc | 209

>>>> Yeah, Right | May 9, 2018 2:57:06 AM | 159

The Syrians will continue to take this on the chin until they have the S-300 in place. Then they will attempt to shoot down a couple of Israeli F-15 over Lebanese airspace and – ideally – do so when those Israeli jets are just about to fire off some cruise missiles into Syria.

Yeah, right. Provided Hariri gets kicked out of being PM now Hezbollah and its allies have a parliamentary majority. Previously, the Saudis would have paid Hariri megadollars and he would have claimed that the Israeli jets were there legitimately at the invitation of the Lebanonanese government. A non-March 14th prime minister in Lebanon changes everything.
But to make life harder for Israel, Lebanon should sign a mutual aid treaty with Syria and invite Syria to send in the fighter/bomber hunter killer teams that the S-300 cries out for. What would really scare the shit out of the IDF would be S-300 missiles heading straight for their jacksies at ~3,900 m/s. Flying at 10,000 metres, they’d have just enough time to shit their pants before they died

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 15:11 utc | 210

My, my, my… retards are aplenty here around, today.
So, for the enlightenment of the unwashed and ignorant masses, I’ll put two relevant quotes.
First one in B’s mother tongue, as a tribute:
“Alles, was ist, endet.”
Second one, I’ll spare you the original Greek and will rely on a random translation found online:
“At the sight of the Carthage utterly perishing amidst the flames Scipio burst into tears, and stood long reflecting on the inevitable change which awaits cities, nations, and dynasties, one and all, as it does every one of us men. This, he thought, had befallen Ilium, once a powerful city, and the once mighty empires of the Assyrians, Medes, Persians, and that of Macedonia lately so splendid. And on my asking him boldly what he meant by these words, he did not name Rome distinctly, but was evidently fearing for her, from this sight of the mutability of human affairs.”

Posted by: Clueless Joe | May 9 2018 15:13 utc | 211

210
Absolute piffle in trying to find some conspiracy where there is none.
Putin has to tread a fine line in timing between his rescue of Syria and WW3 from a pack of crazies.
Do you really want him to move any faster and end up with your family and mine in a cloud of nuclear fire,
He stepped in when Syria was all but gone and they are winning – winning it back inch by inch.
Once the terrorists are dealt with they move on.
Making wild claims about Putin and the Russians only gives comfort to Trump and Bibi and undermines trust.
Which is the intent of course – the game being played to sow the seeds of doubt and distrust.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 15:18 utc | 212

From the stand point of MAGA, Trump has scored an own goal: Mnuchin has been quick to sanction the Boeing deals resulting in the loss of more than 100,000 well paid jobs. Those orders will go to Airbus, which is already looking to work arounds for US crafted parts (reverse engineering); also those orders will go to COMAC (Chinese passenger industry) or the MS-21 (Russian passenger plane). A real stab in the back for an industry which has for practical and political reasons never off shored their company – thereby creating a direct link between orders placed and jobs. European aerospace industries are already (within 24 hours) effectively pressuring the EU to protect their sales and companies – which will happen despite Ambassador Grenell’s admonitions, owing to this being a unilateral move (unlike earlier sanctions) most definitely not supported by the UN, UN Security Council, the EU or Germany, France or Italy. To say nothing of Russia or China who expect to benefit enormously in trade from this folly. All things considered, Trump couldn’t have done more to enhance and amplify the coming effect of OBOR, the Eurasian trade integration.
In this global economy, companies will simply move off shore, and denominate their sales in euros, yuan or rubles as is already happening. Trump and his hench persons are no economists and this move will only accelerate the demise of the petro dollar, as it ripples through a global economy well organized to easily move to other currencies.

Posted by: abierno | May 9 2018 15:25 utc | 213

b. has pointed out many important things on this deal and has gone deeper then any media outlet out there. Also many good comments by posters are here, but nobody really from current US goverment in whichever shape it is right now is listening to Putin when he said that Iran doesn’t have to develop nuclear weapon at all as if there will be a need he can and will give it to their close military ally.
(it was in one of his recent interviews, do not ask for the link, but I remember seeing this).
It was loud and clear warning to all who call for the “regime change” as we all know how it ends.
Tragic in all this is result of Trump’s policy and that is making America irrelevant at the times where sanity is required.

Posted by: laserlurk | May 9 2018 15:37 utc | 214

>>>> Clueless Joe | May 9, 2018 7:37:16 AM | 187

Germany once again attacks Czechoslovalia(sic) and hours later Stalin is palling around with Hitler. I don’t think Stalin could find a more obvious way to send a message: USSR is on the side of the rich and powerful, period, full stop. It will not defend Czechoslovakia or Poland in any way. Poland must accept that it has been carved up. Czechoslovakia must kneel to Germany. The Europeans must accept the ‘peace’ that is thrust on them. The strong win. The weak lose. This is the real Stalin.

#
I’m guessing another dumb, American imbecile.
It was the British and French with American approval who sold the Czechoslovakians down the river. Germany didn’t attack Czechoslovakia, they just walked in because the British and French with American approval had sold the Czechoslovakians down the river. Stalin tried to enter into a mutual defence treaty with Britain and France but neither Britain nor France were prepared to do so almost certainly with American approval.
BTW, you are aware that the Poles carved out a chunk of Czechoslovakia for themselves.
Finally, the Soviet occupation of Poland after the German invasion might well have saved the world from German/Japanese domination. That extra ~360 km probably resulted in Operation Barbarossa running out of steam before it reached Moscow.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 15:42 utc | 215

Emily

Making wild claims about Putin and the Russians only gives comfort to Trump and Bibi and undermines trust.
Which is the intent of course – the game being played to sow the seeds of doubt and distrust.

Saying that US and Israel are stronger than Syria is considering adhering to the real world, some people here is Bagdad Bob.
Oh we are winning good, americans are losing! Sigh.
He stepped in when Syria was all but gone and they are winning – winning it back inch by inch.
Exactly what are Russia and Assad winning? Assad is getting bombed, almost daily by forces tacitly supported by Russia.

Posted by: Anon | May 9 2018 15:45 utc | 216

many interesting posts!!!
debs – thanks for the lyrics from that song about sitting on the fence, LOLOL!
daniel – thanks for the discussion on max blumenthal and his slow realization about syria and who was who… oh well.. hopefully he remembers what a bone head he was from 2011 to 2016 as future reference…
laguerre – thanks for stating all you have in the conversation with anon.. i happen to agree with you!
@153 ghostship quote – “No false flag is necessary, Israel will poke and poke Syria and Iran until one of them pokes back, then the principle that “history” starts when the Israeli government wants it to will be used to explain that Syria/Iran’s wanton act of aggression requires a massive response.” that is kinda how i see it here too..

Posted by: james | May 9 2018 15:53 utc | 217

oh and john gilberts.. thanks for that link showing the ndp with white helmets… jesus, and i thought the ndp had a brain.. obviously she doesn’t..

Posted by: james | May 9 2018 15:54 utc | 218

Clueless Joe @212–
Yes, one of the several circular aspects of history. I offer this essay as one example of Deep State ignorance–for it isn’t Trump alone. Toward its end, the author provides us with the more nuanced meaning of the term hubris–arrogance, most certainly, but arrogance combined with a hatred aimed at injuring others, which I would posit is the proper definition of American Exceptionalism: The Outlaw US Empire will act however it deems fit regardless of how much injury it causes others or even itself, as in this case. The world’s experienced just over 100 years of such hubris and most want nothing further to do with it as exemplified by their actions. As the linked essay suggests, the world’s passing into a stage of revolt.
In straight geopolitical terms, Trump barked but the caravan kept on moving. Does this represent a further hollowing out of the USA as psychohistorian suggests. Somewhat. IMO, the real hollowing out is being done in Congress by Republicans and their Blue Dog Democrat allies as Trump’s overseas actions grab headlines and flood airwaves to cover up what’s happening domestically. Realistically, most nations knew Trump would do what he did and plans were put in motion in anticipation so as to circumvent the fallout, and they’re quite advanced as Grieved and I have pointed out. Win-Win is the way of the future with Zero-sum finally hitting the dustbin as it ought to have long ago. Containment of the Outlaw US Empire and its 2 remaining allies is the policy slowly being implemented by the world’s nations and just got a boost by Trump’s action. If Trump acts anywhere near as buffoonish as he did delivering his speech while meeting with Kim, he’ll be cutout of having anything to do with the peace treaty that will be made between North and South, and then the UN under the aegis of China and Russia. And the Trump team is so inept that it may very well damage relations with Japan enough to change its attitude toward BRI.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 15:59 utc | 219

Israeli attacks kill 8 iranians
https://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/israeli-attack-on-damascus-kills-8-iranians-1.2218814

Posted by: Anon | May 9 2018 16:41 utc | 220

222
That’s what Israel and its allies are saying. I suggest you learn about source analysis.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 9 2018 17:03 utc | 221

Ghost Ship:
In case you didn’t notice, I was showing Paul how much his #185 post was a load of horse manure.
I know well how European relations were at the time, with UK trying to push Hitler against USSR and Stalin trying to fight back by neutralizing the Eastern front and pushing Hitler against France and UK. Stalin did what he could to avoid a bloody one-on-one against Germany and was trying hard to gain time until the showdown; that required disgusting moves, but it actually ended up working, considering USSR’s global position in 1938 and in 1946. It’s way too early to accuse Putin of selling out – after all, we’re talking about someone who obviously takes inspiration not only from Lenin and Stalin but also from Peter the Great and from Ivan the Terrible.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | May 9 2018 17:14 utc | 222

Paul Pillar examines the motivations pushing Trump and the likely consequences of his violating the JCPOA. Here’s one aspect a few commentators have alluded to:
“The dishonest nature of the main opposition to the JCPOA is apparent from the glaring illogic of the opposition’s principal arguments. Most of the attacks against the agreement concern matters that would be worse without the agreement.”
If purchasing Alaska from Russia was deemed Seward’s Folly, then what of Trump’s clear illogic? Seems like hubris to me as defined in my previous comment. Example:
“This [reciting propagandistic lies about Iran] is a formula for nothing but more confrontation, more tension, and more risk of escalation to war. The formula was spoken as if making someone else’s economy suffer is ipso facto a benefit to the United States, which it isn’t.”
I imagine Trump’s ego had an orgasm after his speech.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 17:20 utc | 223

col from oz at 188 mentioned the snap back provisions. Seems an important part of the nuke deal but not mentioned in b’s piece or any other comments.
Here is the wikipedia piece on sanctions related to the nuke deal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Sanctions
This from the wiki piece “The United States will “cease” application of its nuclear-related secondary sanctions[100] by presidential action or executive waiver.[101] Secondary sanctions are those that sanction other countries for doing business with Iran. Primary U.S. sanctions, which prohibit U.S. firms from conducting commercial transactions with few exceptions, are not altered by the JCPOA.[102]”
According to wikipedia, all US needs to use the snap back provisions and bring back UNSC sanctions is the numbers for a vote at the UNSC.
Trump is bringing back US secondary sanctions but not trying to bring back UNSC sanctions. Can’t get the numbers for a UNSC vote to go US way?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 9 2018 17:30 utc | 224

Posted by: abierno | May 9, 2018 11:25:28 AM | 214
“In this global economy, companies will simply move off shore, and denominate their sales in euros, yuan or rubles as is already happening. ”
Have you studied the previous Iran sanctions? No, bypassing dollars was not enough to help Iran. The US simply fined several european companies by several billion dollars, instilled fear in them, so very, very few european companies dared to operate in Iran pre-2015.

Posted by: Passer by | May 9 2018 17:56 utc | 225

Craig Murray on the economics of Trumps move.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/05/trumps-act-of-american-hubris/
Airbus alone has and order worth 20 billion from Iran. If they were to get the Iran Boeing order as well, that would take it to 38 billion.
Craig Murray’s take “In short, if the US fails to prevent Europe and Asia’s burgeoning trade with Iran – and I think they will fail – this moment will be seen by historians as a key marker in US decline as a world power.”

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 9 2018 18:08 utc | 226

karlof1 224
Every way I look at this, Trump seems to have offered up the US to Israel to be used as an expendable asset by Israel. And expend it they will.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 9 2018 18:11 utc | 227

191
First, please investigate the volume/quantity difference… The devil is in the details. A basket of apples vs a convoy of apples should not be deemed comparable.
And somethings can’t be helped. Israel and the AIPAC is one of them. Iran however can be handled.
Where Russia advanced and where Russia will/has halted, what it will and has ignored in Syria, is all predictable by seeing where Russia’s interests lay as I have repeatedly stated.
Iran thought it could game Russia and China into doing it’s bidding. Dumb or greedy, or both?
I dunno why you seem (to me at least) think Shiite Islam is nicer to the Sunni Islam as The Saker does.
Like hell will Russia alter the Sunni vs Shiite status quo to favour Iran. As long as Israel, the Sunnis and the Shiites keep each other in check, that’s what suits Russia just fine.
Have you seen any evidence to the contrary.

Posted by: ThatDamnGood | May 9 2018 18:48 utc | 228

Peter AU 1 @227&2228–
Read and agreed with Murray’s assessment earlier today. Hard to discern which head is at what end of the pushmi-pullyu, which is how I see the Zionist/Outlaw US Empire relationship.
I don’t expect much to happen as a result of Trump’s idiocy as I termed it earlier; Trump barked but the caravan kept on going. The momentum moving the world into a MultiPolar Alliance is inexorable and easily capable of steamrolling the few nations dumb enough to try and change its direction–when one looks at every major challenge currently confronting humanity, the Outlaw US Empire is on the wrong side of every one, which is really rather amazing.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 18:52 utc | 229

Why are you judging Iran’s goverment and measuring it with western standards?
Since I am not good with words I will refer you to this old MoonofA thread
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2011/12/the-csm-drone-exclusive-does-not-make-sense.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef01675ef83c57970b#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef01675ef83c57970b
Where b himself asked this question(in the comments)
Off topic
A question you are likely more knowledgeable about than I am and that I wanted to ask for some time but not on RfI. Is an Ayatollah or a Marja in the sense of a Shia society, more of a “cleric” (in the “western” catholic sense), or more of a jurist i.e a Professor of legal science? Or maybe something else?
That is something I grapple with for quite some time and I find no good writing on it. Any hints to some sane reading on this will be welcome.
and this is the response
b @ 10
Is an Ayatollah or a Marja in the sense of a Shia society, more of a “cleric” (in the “western” catholic sense), or more of a jurist i.e a Professor of legal science? Or maybe something else?
Thanks for the welcoming words.
To answer your question, its “maybe something else”. The answer to your question is actually quite complex, as the understanding of the role of an Ayatollah entails understanding a different culture and civilization’s self-understanding of religion, which definition is in many elemental ways alien to the Western self-understanding of religion and the role that the priestly class plays in it. In other words, as your last question wisely foresaw, it is *not* the case where we have a series of pigeonholes, two of which are labeled “Jurist” and “Professor of Law”, and we simply have to decide which pigeonhole to place our Ayatollah in, or, say, place 40% of him in one hole, and 60% of him in another. That is not the case: in so far as the analogy obtains, the configuration of the woodwork is different.
So a proper answer would have to go into a comparative topology of characteristics and functions, which would take forever, and which I would probably not do a good job at. So my response will be necessarily selective rather than comprehensive.
One of the problems that our Prophet (with whom be peace) did away with or tried to do away with was the very existence of a priestly class as such. The successfulness of this aspect of his project is again another huge subject, which we will have to ignore. The important thing to understand for the purposes of this discussion is that the relationship between man and God in Islam is unmediated – neither by an individual cleric nor by a clerical class, nor yet by the organizational structure of that class of clerics, the Church. The relationship is direct and unmediated. In the Christian tradition (be it Catholic, Coptic, Nestorian, Greek, Russian or Armenian Orthodox, etc.) a duly ordained priest of a Church is required for an individual to establish a connection with God. There is a difference that is set in motion and jealously guarded by the Church and its priest between the vernacular language of the congregation and the liturgical tongue of the priesthood. That is why the Bible was always recited in Latin in Europe – so that only the initiate could understand it, and the layman would be dependent on the priest’s cryptanalysis. It took a clever fellow by the name of Martin Luther to translate the Bible into the vernacular and to say that the Vatican was *not* needed for man to have a relationship with God. Better late than never, I guess.
So that is one important distinction, which is an element in the answer to the question you raised. Another one is the whole issue of the role of religion in questions of state. I do not want to use the hackneyed “separation of Church and State” refrain, as there is no such thing as a “Church” in Islam to separate from the State (or a Mosque or Masjid endowed with an hierarchy that enjoys exclusive authority). This question is itself complicated by the differences in approach to the issue by various sub-elements of the nascent community of Moslems and their respective spirituo-temporal textures and sensibilities – modalities which later crystallized into Sunnite, Shi’ite and Kharijite, among others, each of which again splintered. The Sunnite encounter with this issue was basically to accept the authority of whomever happened to seize the reins of power and managed to hold on to them, whereas the shi’ite encounter was very different and involved belief in a cycle of 12 divinely appointed Guides or Imams, the Cycle of Imamate which followed the Cycle of Prophecy. This distinction bears on the question you asked as the Ayatollahs are in a sense successors to the Imams (the last of which is in an occulted state in an isthmus or in the interstices between this world and the next), the Greater Occultation (circa 941 CE) having ushered in a *third* cycle, the Cycle of Wilaaya(t) or Guardianship. Imam Khomeini’s actualization or institutionalization of the Wilaaya(t) or Guardianship of the Jurisconsult (faqih, or Ayatollahs, if you will) adds yet another kink into this cauldron, as it formalizes and institutionalizes this Cycle as *necessary* (in the absence of the Imam of the Age), and as such, introduces a certain mediation in that relationship.
I’m sorry to have given you a completely inadequate answer. If all I have managed to do is to give you a glimpse into a whole other world, than I will have to settle for that. It is a beautiful world, and one that requires and indeed demands that many volumes be written on it. And good work has been done and continues to be done, but alas I am not able to point you to a single source, an “Ayatollah for Dummies” as it were (with due respect!).
If you are interested, though, there are good books of general information, including The Vision of Islam by Murata and Chittick; Shi’a Islam by Momen; (The Tabatabai book massoud referred to is authoritative and is greatly aided by the excellent translation and annotation of Seyyed Hossain Nasr, but is ultimately sterile as it is written by a Shi’a scholar who was not in my opinion able to address a Western audience in anything remotely resembling a satisfactory way); No God but God by Aslan; The Formative Period of Islamic Thought by Watt; Conflicts in Islamic Jurisprudence by Coulson; and the mighty and magisterial The Succession to Muhammad by Madelung.
Wa’llahu ‘alam (And God knows [best]).
Posted by: Unknown Unknowns | Dec 19, 2011 12:08:00 AM | 30
b @ 12 Ct’d:
So I forgot to draw the mini-conclusion that our little preamble will enable us to draw, namely, that becuase there is no mediation in Islam, the Ayatollah is closer to the Doctor of Law than to the Priest, but because of the all-embracing role of religion in Shi’a Islam (and Islam generally, actually), the Ayatollah is closer to the Priest and the traditional (medieval) priest at that, in that his opinions bear on every aspect of life, albeit in a consulting capacity borne out of an expertise deriving from specialization rather than because of a special position he occupies because of his role as cleric or becuase of his position in a clerical organizational or institutional structure.
Posted by: Unknown Unknowns | Dec 19, 2011 3:28:44 AM | 31
For more advanced reading in the English language, I recommend Amir-Moezzi’s “The Divine Guide in Shi’a Islam” as well as the works of Henri Corbin, especially his “Avicenna and the Visionary Recital” (both these works are translated from the original French).
And just FYI, an Ayatollah (literally = ‘sign of God [on Earth]) is always a marja’ but a marja’ (which literally means source or reference point and is short for marja’-i taqlid = Source of Emmulation) is not necessarily an ayatollah. One can reach the station (maqaam) of marja’iat (of being a source of reference on religious matters) without having reached the (higher) station of Ayatollah. One becomes a marja’ once he (or she) passes the level of Khoruj and thus becomes a mojtahid (someone who is able to apply him or herself to the sources of law (Koran, hadith, etc.) and derive new laws and rulings based on those sources and based on his or her ijtihad (personal legal endeavour), which entails such things as ‘aql (reason), qiyas (analogical reasoning), ‘adl (justice) and in the case of Sunnite ijtihad, ijma’ (consensus), etc.
Posted by: Unknown Unknowns | Dec 19, 2011 3:59:57 AM | 32
b’s response
@UU – thanks, that helped – still lots of stuff I’d like to read and will probably never get to.
@somebody – for a catholic the pope MUST be followed, Sistani in one of several marjas and a shia believer can choose to follow any of them (or none). That’s why I think the comparison is not fitting.
Posted by: b | Dec 19, 2011 7:39:28 AM | 34
end of quote
So as you can see you dont even have the proper mindset or parameters to begin to understand what Shia school of thought or what Iran’s goverment is based on.

Posted by: zaky | May 9 2018 18:55 utc | 230

the previous post was a response to @201

Posted by: zaky | May 9 2018 18:56 utc | 231

@ Peter AU 1 | 228
Trump seems to have offered up the US to Israel to be used as an expendable asset by Israel. And expend it they will.
——————————–
Well, Trump does have that megalomaniacal compulsion to either undo or re-do his predecessors’ work.
LBJ offered up the USS Liberty to be used as an expendable asset by Israel, or in any case went along with the utterly bogus “merry mixup” cover story when Israel used the ship for target practice.
So perhaps Trump thinks, “LBJ gave ’em a lousy boat, but I’ll give ’em the whole damn country.”
________________________________
On an unrelated note: FWIW, I don’t read all that much into Netanyahu’s presence in Moscow. As other commenters have pointed out, Bibi is notorious for pushing himself into high-profile situations. And, to his credit, unlike most Western politicians Putin doesn’t get all fussy and squirrelly about “optics”– so if Bibi made it his business to be in the neighborhood, so to speak, Putin may consider it the better part of valor to simply humor the odious little pest.
The tone of commenters who insist on making a big deal of this remind me of the Russophobes in the US who insist on crucifying Jill Stein for attending a banquet in Russia honoring RT News’s 10th anniversary. It’s much ado about nothing, unless one is determined to read in some sinister and malignant hidden agenda.

Posted by: Ort | May 9 2018 19:21 utc | 232

addressing a number 191 – without a persons name is tricky at moa.. what can happen is b will delete a post or two, so the number gets changed… best to address a number with a name if you want others to know what you are responding to..

Posted by: james | May 9 2018 19:29 utc | 233

Right after the parade, Putin starts walking to handshake many of
the participants and takes in tow an ex old general and places him
between Netanyahu and himself while staying closer to a head of
State or Government (young tall and big) that was another honor
guest.
Bibi did look uneasy at that point but gets revenge when placing
flowers on on some caskets or tombs a he does so in unison with
VVP while the other younger Head of State does so slightly later.

Posted by: CarlD | May 9 2018 19:30 utc | 234

@ Emily 196
I share your opinion on the marching Russian troops. Very impressive. The ranks were all PERFECTLY dressed, i.e. aligned, and while the senior soldiers all looked solemn many of the lower ranks appeared happy and even smiling. These features I’m remarking on are rare in military parades and reflect intense training and positive attitudes, a mighty combination.
(I have a military background including service on a performing drill team.)
On the larger question, of course Russia under Putin is scoring successes left and right. Here’s an extract from one “expert” grousing about Russia.

. . .withdrawal (by US from Syria) also presents Russia with an opportunity to complete their arc of influence from the Baltic Sea to the Persian Gulf. Look at the map carefully, for Russia has redrawn it in recent years. Threats to and cyber-attacks in the Baltic nations, an anti-air and area denial system placed over most of the Baltic Sea, expanded influence in the Ukraine through the use of “grey zone operations,” control of the Black Sea via seizure of Crimea, establishing a firm presence in the Eastern Mediterranean by Russian bases and presence in Syria, arms sales to Turkey, and an alliance with Iran—all expand Russian influence from the Baltics to the Persian Gulf. Such expanded influence is antithetical to U.S. strategic interests as well as the interests of our European allies and regional partners.

Regarding Israeli attacks on Syria, apparently Israel has a Russian green light to attack Iran/Hezbollah missile facilities which threaten Israel. My advise to Tehran, given this, is to change policy regarding anti-Israel missile bases in Syria. Just stop it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 19:32 utc | 235

b: Will Trump make an even bigger mistake despite the opinion of his military advisors? Will he wage war on Iran?
NO, no war on Iran. The US can’t “go there” and the generals and military types know this. Maybe they are clever enough to realise that DT doesn’t like advice, probably doesn’t take to discussion either. So as not to pile up too much of what they see as a good thing.. ?
Consider, the Iran ‘nuke deal’ *was* and is, a bad deal. For Iran!
Subject to controls, giving up some of its independence; a kind of capitulation on some symbolic stuff that was never the crux of the matter in exchange for ‘lifting of sanctions’ which is a very indeterminate proffer and can’t be solidly couched in binding terms. E.g. if CH banks refuse to deal with Iran, that is it.
The impulse for the deal was the work of Kerry (a keen Iran enthusiast as I posted previous) and Lavrov who has the patience of a Saint, with Obiman loving some foreign policy kudos and actually taking millimetre poncy steps away from an ‘all for Israel’ policy (as he did in Syria marginally and btw under the radar..) It was supposed to effect a gingerly compromise.. The deal suited the UK, Russia, France, China and Germany, by putting an end (hope springs ..) to sanctions on Iran permitting biz -> oil, massive exports to Iran, banking, etc.
The intermediaries, or squeezed, look out for their own interests, DT objects to that for sure, why make a deal that will serve, e.g. China and Germany? In a way (major differences) there was a sort of repeat of such a scenario with the Minsk accords, other story. The Iran-nuke deal was doomed from inception. Minsk also.
What exactly Trump intends is roughly easy to dope out, but the results etc. another matter. Core: is *more control* of Iran, and others, like in biz, knock out the competition., not war. What that entails precisely one can only guess at for now – discussion might be interesting?

Posted by: Noirette | May 9 2018 19:35 utc | 236

@30 – Red Ryder
“… populace knows corruption is rampant.
Notice Brazil, Argentina … ”
Congratulations! You are reproducing exactly what supporters of the “colored revolutions” financed by the US want.
Corruption in the government Dilma Rousseff? Of course! The US loves to spread this and put their puppet in power.
And you are just another useful idiot clapping and supporting that.
Congratulations!
PS – Buy a book and read it BEFORE start talk BS.

Posted by: Guilherme | May 9 2018 19:41 utc | 237

Please stop misusing the term “native Americans” when what is meant is the Asiatic “Indians” which came across the northern isthmus when it was still passable and massacred/genocided all who lived in what is now North America before their invasion.
Anyone who is lawfully born in the U.S. is a “native American” citizen, just like citizenship in any other country.
Period.

Posted by: Tony B. | May 9 2018 19:43 utc | 238

re: Airbus sales to Iran
Trump has promised to lean on US corporations involved with Iran in any way.
Hey, Mr. CEO, how would you like a full IRS audit? etc.
from the web:

John Leahy, chief operating officer for customers at Airbus Commercial Aircraft: “Today, there is more U.S. content in Airbus aircraft than from any other country, with more than 40 percent of our aircraft-related procurement coming from the United States.”

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 19:44 utc | 239

The comments by Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei are rather hilarious, some provided here. I can’t help but think Khamenei laughed at Trump despite the seriousness of his action.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 19:47 utc | 240

@ Tony B. 239
re: “misusing” Native Americans term
A lot of people believe that a large group of people who have lived on a continent for over ten thousand years, 500 generations or so, have a right to be called “native” in preference to those people and their ancestors who have been around for a much shorter time and yet had a strategy of willfully killing their predecessors, the Native Americans.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 19:50 utc | 241

Khamenei, a smart guy, knew this “plan of action” was just an outgoing political gambit by Obama but he went along with it knowing it was a farce. After all, how many governments draft a “plan of action” with their worst enemy? Ever been done before??. . . No.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 19:54 utc | 242

Peter Au. @177 Ah, so straight to ad hominem without a word to indicate you’d read a single one of the articles Brendon provides. Typical.
Though as I wrote, I don’t necessarily share Brendon’s conclusions, I cannot dismiss the many $ billions in deals Putin and NuttyYahoo have signed. Nor the $ billions China and Nutty have signed. I don’t know what to make of the IMF backing BRICs, but it does cast some doubt on the whole “struggle to create a mutli-polar world” narrative.
If the same privately controlled Bank is behind both the “West’s” financing and the alleged “opposition,” then just how independent is BRIC?

Posted by: Daniel | May 9 2018 20:05 utc | 243

Circe @192. I’m mostly in agreement with your comments, but the proposed Israeli/Genie Energy pipeline is in a whole different class than the two competing pipelines through Syria. Those latter are meant to send natural gas from the North Pars fields, which are the world’s largest known reserves of methane.
Israel (that is, the financial interests behind it) wants to claim all the recently disclosed methane in and immediately offshore from Golan/Syria and Gaza and sell it to Europe. That’s not insubstantial, but is nowhere near the competition to Russia that the Qatar/Iran controlled fields present.

Posted by: Daniel | May 9 2018 20:05 utc | 244

Noirette 237
Well stated (as usual), I agree.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 20:05 utc | 245

DB @243–
Khamenei has his own Twitter:
“A few days ago Trump wrote a letter to leaders of #PersianGulf states, which was revealed to us. He wrote: “I spent $7 trillion and you must do something in return.” The U.S. wants to own humiliated slaves.”
Reading his feed is illuminating. He certainly isn’t a fool like Trump.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 20:06 utc | 246

WJ @194. “Deadly” is precisely what any attempt to ethnically cleanse 6 million non-Jewish Palestinians and shipping them off to North Korea (which I’m sure is anxious to welcome them) would be.

Posted by: Daniel | May 9 2018 20:08 utc | 247

Daniel 244
What was that youtube link you put up. Looked the sort of thing from a clickbait side yet it seemed from your comment that it was not put up as a joke.
So many links here to look at and I waste my time clicking on junk like that.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 9 2018 20:17 utc | 248

Lots of deluded folks here singing the wishful thinking echo chamber blues. A few voices urging caution and rational analysis but the true believers here have convinced themselves Russia and China are locked into an existential death match with the USA. No no and no. The fact is if you seriously think hanging out on Twitter and reading articles/propaganda pieces penned by fellow travelers makes you privy to The Truth….yikes. You laugh at Bellingcat but they do what you do and they are way better at it.
Your method: taking the opposite of MSM conventional wisdom as your holy Truth. They say Putin is Hitler 2.0; you say Putin is saving the world. They say Israel is an honourable nation; you say Israel is pure evil and controls the world twice over. They say Assad is a brutal tyrant; you say he is democratically elected by people who love him. They say Russia spreads propaganda; you say the USA spreads propaganda. And so forth. Like I said….yikes.

Posted by: Porridge & Lager | May 9 2018 20:19 utc | 249

217 Anon
Exactly what are Russia and Assad winning? Assad is getting bombed, almost daily by forces tacitly supported by Russia.
What are Assad and Russia winning in Syria?
I suggest you follow Southfront and watch their maps.
I am sure you will find a before Russia and after Russia map there.
Huge.
You clearly haven’t been following the news as they are now in the process of retaking the cauldron around E Gouta.
Bit by bit.
But surely.
As for the bombing.
Its a war!
So Assad gets a few bombs – check out what is falling on the heads of Assad’s opponents from Syrian, Iraqi and Russian war planes.
I’m sure Assad can hack the pace.
He has been brilliant so far – brave – I doubt if the odd bomb is going to deter him.
Southfront will be a revelation for you if you really believe your own statement.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 20:23 utc | 250

N.Korea is tremendously stupid if they sign a deal with Trump after this day…as is any other nation. What a mess.
Posted by: Anon | May 8, 2018 4:28:28 PM | 62

That’s very true.
“We” are suddenly allowed to think, say and believe, that Kim is not only sane, but shrewd as well. The Iran deal is in writing and was signed by senior reps of all of the parties to the agreement. Trump’s unilateral repudiation of a written, multi-party agreement sets a foolish, but loud and clear, precedent.
In one of the Oliver stone Putin Interviews, Putin admits that he made a mistake in accepting verbal promises from the US (in either Nuke non-proliferation, or NATO expansion) and would insist that agreements with the US would have to be in writing before they could be taken seriously.
Trump’s ditching of the Iran deal means that it’s now Im-possible to verify the validity of any agreement made with the US Govt. That message will have been duly noted by North Korea when its Nukes come up for discussion/negotiation.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 9 2018 20:28 utc | 251

>>>> Clueless Joe | May 9, 2018 1:14:56 PM | 223
Point taken but you’d have been better off going straight for the jugular and calling Paul a dumb American imbecilic c**t. He’s typical of the exceptionalist morons who post or comment at neo-lib f**ktard sites like Lawyers, Guns and Money and who think that the solution to any problem confronting America is a hammer(aka war).

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 20:30 utc | 252

Circe a@197. Yes, the real power is not the Jewish State of Israel in the Levant, but the financial interests behind it. And those interests are centered in place like The City of London, New York and the Vatican.
And while it’s absolutely true that ethnically Jewish dynasties make up a grossly disproportionate percentage of the owners of those financial powerhouses, I’ve come to see it not so much as a Jewish thing, as a psychopathic cabal thing.
Relatedly, there are many comments about the end of the US Empire. I have long seen the US as the principle enforcement arm of those financial interests. Our mighty military has served the will of the monied interests for more than a century now, as General Smedley Butler so clearly and concisely explained in “War is a Racket.”
And TPTSB have allowed USAmericans a certain level of prosperity so we could build and sustain the world’s most powerful military. But over the past several decades, this has been changing. USAmerican workers are being left to dry up on the vine. I don’t know if it’s new developments in war-making technology, or perhaps systems of control that obviate much of the purpose for traditional wars, but it sure looks like USAmericans are being considered obsolete.
We are no longer an industry-based economy. We’re not even a service-industry economy. At this point, the largest sector of our economy is finance. And we know who that serves.

Posted by: Daniel | May 9 2018 20:33 utc | 253

I did a paper for my own amusement some time ago, –Ayatollah Khamenei vs. President Obama
Here are a few extracts:
the basis of the crisis
Obama
My point here is not that I believe the sincerity of the statements coming out of the regime. The point is that for them to prove to the international community that their intentions are peaceful and that they are, in fact, not pursuing weapons, is not inconsistent with what they’ve said. So it doesn’t require them to knuckle under to us. What it does require is for them to actually show to the world that there is consistency between their actions and their statements. And that’s something they should be able to do without losing face.
Khamenei
“The truth is that their opposition is because of the essence of the Revolution and the existence of the Islamic Republic. They were ruling the region without any worries. They had full control over a country like Iran, with its rich resources and numerous facilities. They used to do whatever they wanted. They used to make whatever decisions they wanted. They used to make the best of the facilities of our country in order to advance their own goals. But now they have been deprived of all these things.
strength in negotiations
Obama
I think that the Israeli government recognizes that, as president of the United States, I don’t bluff. I also don’t, as a matter of sound policy, go around advertising exactly what our intentions are. But I think both the Iranian and the Israeli governments recognize that when the United States says it is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon, we mean what we say. Let me describe very specifically why this is important to us.
Khamenei
Our retreats emboldened them. There was a day when our government officials would be satisfied if they allowed us to have twenty-five centrifuges in the country, but they said it was not possible. Then our government officials became satisfied with having five centrifuges, but they still said it was not possible. Then our government officials became satisfied with three centrifuges, but again they said it was not possible…Today, we have eleven thousand centrifuges in the country. If we had continued those retreats, if we had continued that flexibility, we would have achieved none of these nuclear advances.”
Iran reaction to sanctions
Obama
They know, for example, that when these kinds of sanctions are applied, it puts a world of hurt on them. They are able to make decisions based on trying to avoid bad outcomes from their perspective. So if they’re presented with options that lead to either a lot of pain from their perspective, or potentially a better path, then there’s no guarantee that they can’t make a better decision.
Khamenei
Khamenei advances the “economy of resistance,” which, of course, has “certain requirements”: “Putting the people in charge of the economy is among the requirements of an economy of resistance…Certain things have already been done, but it is necessary to make more efforts. It is necessary to strengthen the private sector. The private sector should be encouraged to engage in economic activities and our banking system, governmental organizations and the organs that can help—such as the Majles and the judiciary—should help the people step into the arena of economy.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 20:38 utc | 254

Some one in Washington has woken up to the fact that The White Helmets ® are bbfs with the jihadists ‘cos every time those idiots surrender to the SAG, The White Helmets ® disappear with them to the Idlib shithole.
Meanwhile that British imbecilic c**t, Boris Johnson is claiming that political negotiations over the future of Syria should start without any preconditions but suggests the negotiations should include that waste of space known as the HNC of the jihadists which is of itself a pre-condition. The Russians should tell Johnson to go f**k himself but they are too polite to do so.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 20:42 utc | 255

Porridge & Lager @250
Pretty thin gruel you offer, devoid of facts in support. Rather much like Trump and his ilk.
Tony B @239–
America comprises two continents within the Western Hemisphere; those that initially populated them are known as either First Peoples or Native Americans. Most everyone else who later emigrated to or was later born within the Hemisphere eventually became a citizen of the country within which they reside. Descendants of First Peoples/Native Americans retain that link and designation. You can hem and haw along with many others, but such behavior will not alter the facts.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 20:45 utc | 256

China is handling DPRK, and the results should be interesting. China doesn’t like nukes under anybody’s control just across its border, it doesn’t like the US military nearby either and China is nobody’s fool. Against China/DPRK are Trump and Pompeo — no contest.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 9 2018 20:51 utc | 257

Netanyahu compares Iran to Nazi Germany during V-Day talks with Putin
https://www.rt.com/news/426298-netanyahu-wwii-iran-nazis/
Emily
Who cares how much land you are winning if the enemy could strike you at any moment and end your “success” just like that?

Posted by: Anon | May 9 2018 20:54 utc | 258

Cluelessjoe 223
I suggest you read Isac Deutschers biography of Stalin – still not bettered in English – to see some of the complex integuements of Soviet policy leading to the 1938/41 period . Russian forces in Spain and China in 1938/9 ( for example ) were not there to be doing any sort of deal with Fascism .

Posted by: ashley albanese | May 9 2018 20:55 utc | 259

>>>>> Emily | May 9, 2018 4:23:07 PM | 251
You’re a bit behind the times – East Ghouta has been cleared of FUKUSKSA scumbags as have the Dumayr, East Qalamoun and South Damascus (non-ISIS) pockets. The Yarmouk Camp (ISIS) pocket in south Damascus is being steadily reduced and it looks like the jihadists in the al-Rastan (southern Hama/northern Homs) pocket are dying to be bused to Idlib with their pals The White Helmets ®. Meanwhile over to the east, the SAA is reducing the ISIS-controlled pocket between al-Sukhnah and al-Mayedin.
Soon the only ISIS pockets in Syria will be the one east of the Euphrates in Deir Ez-zor/Al-Hasakah governorates which is tolerated by the United States, perhaps the al-Tanf pocket which might include ISIS but is under United States control and the one in the extreme south west of the country bordering the Israeli-occupied Golan
Perhaps that will be Iran’s revenge for the deaths of Iranians in Syria at the hands of Israel; pointing out to President Carrot Head when he holds his “victory” parade that ISIS is still alive and well in Syria thanks to the United States and Israel. The neo-libs including Clintonists probably hate President Carrot Head more than they hate Iran so they will want to piss on Trump’s parade in Washington.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 21:11 utc | 260

Sometimes b you write some pretty good stuff but please spare me your juvenile effort here with stupidity like (1) “right-wing nuts” influencing any darn thing in the U.S. — I wish — and (2) the laughable “One can never count on the U.S. to keep its word.”
Do I think the U.S. effort in Syria is a tissue of greasy lies and do I believe that the U.S. plays fast and loose with its Constitution and the U.N. Charter? Why, yes, I do. But if you want me to believe that the rest of humanity and various nation states are paragons of honesty and choir boys when it comes to keeping one’s word and that the Americans have some unique moral defect, well, pardon me if I tell you to get real. That said, note that this is not a defense of Americans and our scumbag politicians.
I agree with your conclusion that withdrawal is a bad idea. Just please skip the gratuitous and naive cheap shots.

Posted by: Col. B. Bunny | May 9 2018 21:27 utc | 261

Thanks, b, for deleting my reply to the stupid comment @ 30 Red Ryder about Brazil and Argentina.

Posted by: Guilherme | May 9 2018 21:34 utc | 262

Daniel @254–
The change is most often attributed to the changeover from Industrial Capitalism to Finance Capitalism when Nixon stopped dollar convertibility to gold. Hudson explains it here, although he takes a longer view of the timeline thus providing essential context for Nixon’s action.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 21:47 utc | 263

Israel Shelling Syria from the Golan Heights. (from RT)

Posted by: CarlD | May 9 2018 21:47 utc | 264

@238 263 guilherme…. don’t get too paranoid… your post is still there @ 238.. i agree with it too…

Posted by: james | May 9 2018 21:52 utc | 265

CarlD @265–
Yes, and SAA’s returning fire. The Zionists have positioned numerous tanks as targets in Golan. Guess Nuttyahoo wants to replace his Daesh and al-Qaeda proxies with home grown cannon fodder. Wonder what lies he told Putin.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 21:56 utc | 266

259 Anon
Who cares how much land you are winning if the enemy could strike you at any moment and end your “success” just like that?
Been there – done that.
105 missiles – 71 I believe it was – shot down.
Pathetic.
Three empty buildings destroyed at the cost to the US taxpayers of millions.
With that record any potential hit on Syria depriving it of its ‘success’ is less than zero.
You are confusing your wishful thinking with facts on the ground.
Assad has won and he will win more yet.
He has faced down the ‘Empire’ the axis of real evil US/UK/NATO.
You will get over it, I trust.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 22:13 utc | 267

261 Ghost ship.
Thank you ghost.
I stand corrected.
It just gets better an better.
I trust ‘Anon’ has read your post and not choked too violently on his coffee.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 22:19 utc | 268

Guilherme 263 james 266
Pepe Escobar had a number of articles on Brazil when Rousseff was being taken down. In most of those articles was a bit on the endemic corruption throughout politics and the elite in Brazil.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 9 2018 22:27 utc | 269

As predicted. Likely false flag (Iran missiles launched at Israel) providing justifcation for further escalation. Putin was serves his papers before hand.

Posted by: Pft | May 9 2018 22:43 utc | 270

@ ralphieboy | 201

But I would like to see Iran turned into a democracy by a popular and internal movement. I am anti-clerical: I do not think that religious leaders should play an active role in determining the government of any nation.

First claim is a non-realistic sentiment, again – ALL “Western” democracies sooner or later become oligarchies (starting with US), with elites running the show, usually behind the curtains. And even that is considering these countries are in position of power and not under the attack. Iran is a much weaker side and is under the attack, you CANNOT play “pure democracy” in such case. It would make it even weaker and much more susceptible to oligarch and outside influence, think it through.
Second claim is your bias of your believes, nothing more. I’m not a Muslim or Christian, but I’m perfectly fine how Khamenei leads Iran in such difficult situation, he is a brilliant man, so is Assad (Alavi), so is Nasrallah (Shia), so is Putin (Orthodox), etc.
Don Bacon | 236

My advise to Tehran, given this, is to change policy regarding anti-Israel missile bases in Syria. Just stop it.

1. Its absolutely non of Israel’s business what bases Iran builds (or not) in Syria. Its up to them and Syria. Its like Iran threatening (and bombing!) Israel because they have US soldiers and missiles.
2. If you believe propaganda, every target Israel bombs is either “weapons shipment to Hezbollah” or “Iranian missiles pointed at Israel”. How do you know any of it is true? More often than not its a lie. And even if it were Iranians/Hezb, its absolutely illegal and criminal to target them.
3. Lets say for argument sake Iran is building a missiles base in Syria. So what? They wont attack first, but it would be a deterrent against attack on Iran. How many missile bases US has around Iran? And Israel itself made a base in Azerbaijan, and Iran cant in Syria?

Posted by: Harry | May 9 2018 22:46 utc | 271

@269 Emily – “I trust ‘Anon’ has read your post and not choked too violently on his coffee.”
‘Anon’ is too busy filling in his log sheet and counting up the number of responses he drew from people. Good or bad doesn’t matter, getting a response is the goal and scores extra. Engagement pays more than posts. This thread has been inflated to 279 comments filled with wild distraction and consensus-busting as I write this. And anon is not the only one scoring here.

Posted by: Grieved | May 9 2018 22:47 utc | 272

Harry @272–
Must agree with you 100% about Syrian/Iranian right to do whatever they want within Syria except assemble weapons of mass destruction. For all its arguments about sovereignty, Russia ought to know that; so, I think we’re being fed disinformation. Sorta surprised by Db’s stance on that issue.
Syria’s clearly had enough of Zionist aggression and has counterattacked directly in the Golan. Twitter sources say Zionists supporting their terrorists with covering fire, but infiltration attempt thwarted.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 23:08 utc | 273

>>>>> james | May 9, 2018 11:53:14 AM | 218
It’s not as if Israel doesn’t have form.

On August 5, 1981, Begin picked Ariel Sharon to replace him as Defense Minister. For the next 10 months or so, as Israeli historians like Zeev Schiff and Ehud Yaari, Benni Morris, Avi Shlaim or Zeev Maoz have long documented, Israel engaged in numerous military operations with the clear purpose of goading the Palestinians into some form of military response, which Israel would then be able to condemn as a “terrorist” attack that justified a major offensive into Lebanon.

And Arafat knew what to do about it.

Arafat saw through Israel’s strategy however, and made sure that PLO members did not respond. As Israeli historian Benni Morris writes in Righteous Victims, “the PLO took great pains not to violate the agreement of July 1981.” “Indeed,” he adds, “subsequent Israeli propaganda notwithstanding, the border between July 1981 and June 1982 enjoyed a state of calm unprecedented since 1968.”

Which didn’t stop Israel blaming the PLO for the attempted assassination of Ambassador Argov

Israel’s arguments were strongly rejected by the Security Council. As the representative for the United Kingdom explained, the assassination attempt against Ambassador Argov, “however despicable, does not in any way justify the massive attacks on Lebanese towns and villages by the Israeli air force, attacks which have already inflicted major loss of life, casualties and damage to property.”
The Security Council immediately adopted Resolution 509, which demanded that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon and called on all parties to cease hostilities.
Israeli forces kept advancing, and on June 8 the Security Council reconvened. A draft resolution condemning Israel for its failure to comply and reiterating the call on all parties to cease hostilities was promptly put to a vote. Fourteen member states voted in favor, but the resolution was vetoed by the United States. Israel troops continued their march towards Beirut.

Which is why the Syrians and Iranians should not respond to these Israeli provocations until they believe that their forces can stop the IDF dead in its track with a high degree of probability. With all the advances made by the SAA and its allies in the last few weeks, it’s looking increasingly likely that the SAA and its allies will be able to stop the IDF in a few weeks if it treats Idlib and the terrorist-held areas around Daraa as being of secondary importance. The window of opportunity for the IDF is closing fast.
And now the IDF seems to be shooting at the SAA on the Golan.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 23:08 utc | 274

How low the Guardian has sunk still surprises me – its article about today’s event in Golan is a press release from the Israeli MOD – no attempt whatsoever at balance so perhaps it should change its name to The Daily Hasbara.

Iran ‘fires 20 rockets’ at Israel army in occupied Golan Heights
Israeli military says projectiles were launched from Syria
Oliver Holmes in Jerusalem
Iranian forces stationed in Syria fired about 20 rockets or projectiles at Israeli military positions in the Golan Heights just after midnight on Thursday, Israel’s defence forces (IDF) said.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 23:19 utc | 275

How low the Guardian has sunk still surprises me – its article about today’s event in Golan is a press release from the Israeli MOD – no attempt whatsoever at balance so perhaps it should change its name to The Daily Hasbara.

Iran ‘fires 20 rockets’ at Israel army in occupied Golan Heights
Israeli military says projectiles were launched from Syria
Oliver Holmes in Jerusalem
Iranian forces stationed in Syria fired about 20 rockets or projectiles at Israeli military positions in the Golan Heights just after midnight on Thursday, Israel’s defence forces (IDF) said.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 23:20 utc | 276

273 Grieved.
Thanks for telling me that.
I take every one at face value – I can’t pick up the trolls.
I won’t take notice again.
This is up on Zerohedge – everyone.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-09/explosions-reported-israel-syria-border-israel-activates-emergency-sirens
A zionist attack by looks of things.

Posted by: Emily | May 9 2018 23:26 utc | 277

>>>> Emily | May 9, 2018 6:19:08 PM | 269

I trust ‘Anon’ has read your post and not choked too violently on his coffee.

Emily you’ve got it wrong again. Here, I’ll correct it for you.

I trust ‘Anon’ has read your post and either choked himself to near death on his coffee or drowned his computer in coffee.

But somehow I doubt it because he’s probably either a “perception management” bot working for some American corporation under contract to the CIA or a Hasbarabot.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 9 2018 23:26 utc | 278

Clearly, the game’s afoot: Proof”>https://twitter.com/Ali_Kourani/status/994354569487503361″>Proof the Zionist attack and subsequent Syrian counterattack will be blamed on Iran thanks to propagandists like Anderson. Damage definitely done to Zionist military as the regime’s invoked its censorship laws re any news from Golan. An example of nationalist fervor that might not have existed 3 years ago.
It might be said this Zionist assault is a direct result of Trump’s action; but like his action, it will accomplish nothing important other than the raising of Syrian morale.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 9 2018 23:37 utc | 279

Peter AU @249. Brendon, the creator of that video, comes off as slightly off-kilter. Or, more than slightly. I take into context that for the best part of a decade, he has been relentlessly harassed (including by the Israeli government itself which intervened in his trial in Australia). His crime was documenting the illegal mislabeling of produce from the illegally occupied territories being sold in Australia. He was the first Australian to be imprisoned for the Israeli-designed “racial hate crime” of telling the truth.
He was imprisoned twice and though offered asylum in Iran, when he realized the Rouhani government refused to confront Israeli malfeasance, he fled to Malaysia. He and his family have received credible death threats, and his caustic and cynical style has led to his being marginalized by those who would actually agree with his main observations if they took the time to follow up on his research. So, the fact that he comes off a bit deranged is perhaps somewhat understandable. The real issue is not his presentation style, but the facts he’s uncovered.
If you can get past the first few minutes of that video, you’ll start to get into some of the meat of his work. Then, in the description box, he provides links to sources (many from MSM) that substantiate his main points. ie.
1. Through the Israeli Secret Intelligence Service (specifically Unit 8200 and Operation Talpiot), Israel has stolen high tech knowledge and equipment (and developed more of its own) with which it has embedded itself in the infrastructure of every nation on earth.
2. President Putin has developed a relationship with NuttyYahoo that affects his every action in the Middle East.
Again, I do not personally subscribe to each of his conclusions. I also abhor the ideology of some of his sources and supporters.
But as I frequently state, we should practice critical thinking regardless of the source of information. What matters is the validity of the information. Much of Brendon’s is clearly valid.

Posted by: Daniel | May 10 2018 0:06 utc | 280

Ghost Ship @256 (my favorite number, BTW)
Vanessa Beeley has penned an article on the alleged defunding of the White Helmets Propaganda Construct well worth reading.
A White Helmets spokesman (ONLY men) wrote:
“…the White Helmets  (SCD) have not been informed of any “funding freeze”. He then relays the information that the White Helmets have recently signed contracts with Turkish and Qatari organisations to carry out new projects…”
Vanessa writes:
“…it is increasingly clear that the U.S funding freeze for the White Helmets may well prove to be another in a long line of Trump administration myths…”
Too much is invested in the WH construct to believe it is being shuttered.
Syria’s White Helmets Go Global

Posted by: Daniel | May 10 2018 0:24 utc | 281

Daniel 281
Thanks for the explanation. I did flick through starting the video at places to see if it changed to documentary style but the short bits I watched appeared to be the same as the start.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 10 2018 0:26 utc | 282

@270 peter… i think the lady who was leading brazil was doing a good job, but because she wasn’t aligned with the crooks, they had to replace her with a known felon artist! of course the usa would approve of the new ”temporary leader – i forget his name.
@275 ghostship… yes, i think there is a lesson to be learned here and i do believe syria, iran and the palestinians know what it is.. this goes right back to your original comment @153! and yes – more of the same tonight with israel attacking the golan heights claiming iran was sending missiles it’s way…

Posted by: james | May 10 2018 0:32 utc | 283

James 284
Escobar believed she was honest and I take it she was. I tend to think the reason she was brought down is that most politicians in Brazil were/are for sale.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 10 2018 0:43 utc | 284

So when is the circus UN Security Council going to be convened about the air strikes by Israel?
Do I hear crickets?

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 10 2018 0:51 utc | 285

@ ralphieboy
and what exactly is wrong with theocratic government? Just because you are atheist? Actually its a perfect government for Iran. It provides a cultural, political, moral backbone vast majority of “Western” democracies dont have. ALL of them sooner or later become oligarchies and are ruled by 0,001% globalists, with MSM in their pocket. […]
I also dislike the term “hardliner”, its a derogatory term to denigrate those who see their country as priority (Assad, Putin, Khamenei, Ahmadinejad), as opposed by “liberals” and “reformers” who care less about their country than to play along with globalists and increase own bank balance (pick any oligarch of your choice).
Posted by: Harry | May 9, 2018 5:24:32 AM | 178
My take is that (a) I would not recommend theocracy (b) governance in various countries invariably suffers from various flaws, so before disparaging country A as inferior to country B one has to make some patient comparison, and attempt some quantification of the flaw — when nobody is perfect, some point system is needed.
In my classification, Israel and Iran are both “liberal theocracies” because some key functions of the state are delegated to unelected religious officials, exercising full rights requires to have the most approved religion, but many key state functions are controlled by elected bodies etc. KSA is a fusion of absolute monarchy with theocracy, does it make it worse from an absolute monarchies in which religious issues are controlled by the monarch like everything else? As a system, KSA is inferior to liberal theocracies, but comparison of Iran and Israel is much trickier. For example, the theocratic branch of Iran controls the military, and the grand rabbis of Israel do not control the military. But in practice (a) elected branch of Israel does not control the military either (b) de-facto, militarism plays the role of an augmentation to the state religion, and generals have somewhat priestly role.
Both Iran and Israel violate tenets that in Europe and North America are viewed as human rights, so some quantification is needed, e.g. the number of people killed in un-armed demonstrations against the government (counting non-citizens, e.g. Palestinians) — isolated cases can be found in the West too, so quantification is important.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 10 2018 1:02 utc | 286

@karlof1 | May 9, 2018 7:08:38 PM | 274
Right on me too. “Must agree with you 100% about Syrian/Iranian right to do whatever they want within Syria” Lost count Bibi’s bombs and missiles dropped in Syria and how many killed… I presume with Putin blessing or Putin said to Bibi, “do whatever so long no Russians harm?”
I started it, posting OJS | May 9, 2018 10:59:16 AM | 210 The legally elected government ………Am I missing something, Bibi, Putin’s pal openly in Russia’s massive military parade in Moscow?

Posted by: OJS | May 10 2018 1:13 utc | 287

@Piotr Berman
Are you seriously saying that aparthaeid genocidal zionist regime is the same as iran?!
And that ethnical cleansing of protesting Palestinians is the same as a nonexistentials shooting of protesters in Iran?

Posted by: Ikl | May 10 2018 1:13 utc | 288

@285 peter.. she was too aligned with brics and saw the usa as a meddler. for that she had to be taken down! it wasn’t about her corruption.. that was a pile of manure… the guy they replaced her was clearly corrupt, but the usa was a okay with that temer, i think is his name. michel temer.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Temer
“In June 2017 Temer’s approval rating stood at 7%, the lowest for any president in more than thirty years.[70] DataPoder 360 released a poll 21 June which was conducted 19–21 June and showed an approval rating of 2%.[73] In a survey conducted by the IBOPE institute between 24 and 26 July 81% of Brazilians favored the indictment of the President.[74] On 2 August, lawmakers in the lower house in Congress voted not to refer the case against the scandal-plagued President to the supreme court, which has the power to try him. Observers and the population state that the move to shield Temer only further undermines the credibility of Brazil’s political and electoral system.”

Posted by: james | May 10 2018 1:17 utc | 289

…You clearly haven’t been following the news as they are now in the process of retaking the cauldron around E Gouta.
Bit by bit…
.”
FYI, On track since 1967 (six-day war) when Israeli army lighting strikes across the Sinai peninsular and Golan height and was a strong Israel supporter. Time had change, I changed and continue to change as I watch Putin with sickening Bibi at Russian military parade. Palestine no longer looks the former Palestine after the Brit departure but now a Swiss cheesecake in the occupied areas.
”So Assad gets a few bombs” How about getting a few bombs where you’re? How come no bombs falls on Bibi’s soldiers and citizen heads?
I had always maintained all lives’ matter: Black, White, Brown or Yellow… No one has the monopoly to murder and justify in the name of gods, democracy or Fxx freedom. You sound like a NeoLiberal (Madeleine Albright) justifying few bombs on Dr. Assads’ solders and citizens.

Posted by: OJS | May 10 2018 1:33 utc | 290

what’s next?
that question has been answered tonight….even while Bibi is being feted in Moscow by Putin and the russian elites, Israel attacks syria and Iranian forces in Syria, pr perhaps it was the Iranians who started it, tonight (but certainly not in the past several months when Israel has attacked iranian forces in Syria; not to mention the 100+ times that Israel has attacked inside Syria, all attacks being illegal)
in any case, there’s the answer, at least on the politico-military regional level – WAR
personally I assume that Israel started this dog fight; I am curious and to what people think about it happening while Bibi is in Moscow, what does that all mean??

Posted by: michaelj72 | May 10 2018 3:28 utc | 291

https://twitter.com/Syria_Hezb_Iran
24 Resistance Axis
‏ @Syria_Hezb_Iran
4h4 hours ago
More 24 Resistance Axis Retweeted IDF
There is no truth to enemy media that claim #IRGC is source of bombardment on #IDF targets; It was #SAA’s 137th Regiment – 7th Mechanized Division who retaliated to #Israel|i aggressions. #GOLAN #SYRIA

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 10 2018 3:44 utc | 292

From what I can make of it, Israel tried another attack with air launched missiles, but this time SAA immediately responded with multiple rocket launchers into the IDF positions in occupied Golan.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 10 2018 3:53 utc | 293

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/2018/05/10/israel-says-informed-russia-ahead-of-its-strikes-in-syria/
Surprise, surprise Israel says informed Russia ahead of its strikes in Syria. “JERUSALEM (Reuters) – Israel forewarned Russia of its strikes on Thursday against multiple targets in Syria, an Israeli military spokesman said.
“The Russians were informed prior to our attack by the established mechanisms that we have,” Lieutenant-Colonel Jonathan Conricus told reporters without elaborating. “

Emily and Putin’s apologists beside insulting MoAs I’m sure Putin concur the strikes and did you know Jack Ma receives honorable doctoral degree at Tel Aviv University in Israel recently?

Posted by: OJS | May 10 2018 4:53 utc | 294

Twitter report on the latest flare-up between Israel and Syria:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/05/syrians-and-israelis-are-shooting-at-each-other-ttg.html

Posted by: Thirdeye | May 10 2018 5:01 utc | 295

@ OJS with the opinion about events with which I want to respectfully disagree
It is said that at that level one keeps ones friends close and ones enemies closer.
I would also remind all that the war is about who controls global finance and Israel is trying its hardest to make it all about the myth of the Levant. The Western elite need to take themselves down and China and Russia are providing the ongoing venues for that to occur.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 10 2018 5:09 utc | 296

Haha woke up and see Israel have been attacked again, even more.
And there are still people here that believe “Assad is winning” “Israel cant do anything” type of comments.

Posted by: Anon | May 10 2018 6:56 utc | 297

Its quite disgusting to see Israel using Iran boogeyman lies to illegally justify bombings on Syria.
Western media, politicians are already supporting and believing the israeli disinfo campaign.

Posted by: Anon | May 10 2018 7:37 utc | 298

The 3 stooges of Britain, France and Germany would be laughable if they were not so pathetic.
Macron – Before meeting President Trump [paraphrasing] ‘We must keep the deal it’s the only way, there is no plan B’
After meeting President Trump [paraphrasing] ‘It’s a bad deal, we must change it, I was talking about climate
change & said ‘there’s no Planet B’, (just shows the contempt he has
for the people that elected him!)
Merkel – Before meeting President Trump [paraphrasing] ‘We must keep the deal it’s the only way’
After meeting President Trump [paraphrasing] ‘It’s a bad deal, we must change it’
Johnson – well, he didn’t even meet the President, but had to go on his favorite TV Show to get speak to him….. ROFL, so
much for the ‘special relationship’, that the UK likes to think they have with the US, something the rest of us
know as one of the best jokes of the Century.
If/When the bombing starts you very well that the UK and France will be there too, it sickens me to even begin think about the consequences of such idiocy. It seems though this is now the route to which President Trump is committed to, with all the Hawks whispering in his ear.

Posted by: Thorvid | May 10 2018 9:41 utc | 299

@somebody – for a catholic the pope MUST be followed, Sistani in one of several marjas and a shia believer can choose to follow any of them (or none). That’s why I think the comparison is not fitting.
[…] you dont even have the proper mindset or parameters to begin to understand what Shia school of thought or what Iran’s goverment is based on.
Posted by: zaky | May 9, 2018 2:55:13 PM | 231
zaky does not seem to have a superior mindset either. Pope is most cheerfully disregarded if “necessary”, e.g. Catholic neocons were promoting and justifying invasion of Iraq contrary to Pope, most notably/hilariously theologians at American Enterprise Institute — merchants get expelled from the Temple, so they fund their own theology department, this is not something you can find out in Catholic theological libraries… Doctrines tend to be drastically reinterpreted, Americans are supposed to obey their Constitution, to give another example. Temporal power of Shia clerics is also a reinterpretation, and it is not relevant to us if it is drastic, return to the “original” etc.
That said, Shia clerics follow a certain mindset that is much less dictatorial than what one can observe in Sunni dictatorial regimes, be them monarchies or, say, Egypt. Supreme Leader goes to some length not to be arbitrary and not to be overly involved in mundane governance, his rule is from a certain remove. Leaders of Hezbollah selected him as the Marjah, and they also influence Lebanon from a certain remove — within Shia community they seem to politely dominate, cajole a critical Christian block that includes the president, etc. Total contrast with the style and results of KSA sponsor of Hariri and March 15 — boldness and ineptitude.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 10 2018 10:35 utc | 300