Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 10, 2018

Syria Sets New Rules For Israeli Strikes

When Trump killed the nuclear deal with Iran he gave Israel the chance to start a wider war with Syria. An earlier Israeli simulation of the situation had concluded:

The crisis created by the administration regarding the flaws of the nuclear agreement could be exploited to promote issues more urgent for Israel (mainly Iran’s missile program and presence in Syria).

The Israeli government claims that Iranian support for Syria is a threat to its country. That is a bogus claim. The Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahoo uses the "Iran threat" as boogeyman to divert attention from other issues like the various corruption cases against himself.

Over the last years Israel attacked Syrian army positions more than 100 times, often in support of al-Qaeda aligned "Syrian rebels". Syria did not respond as it was busy fighting against the Takfiri invasion within the country. In April Israel upped the ante when it attacked the T4 base in the middle of Syria from where Russian and Iranian forces support Syria's fight against ISIS. Iranian soldiers were killed in the attack. The Syrian air defense shot down at least one of the attacking Israeli F-16 jets. This shooting down of the Israeli jets was thought to have established a new balance, but Israel continued to provoke.

On Tuesday, just as Trump announced his breaking of the nuclear deal, Israel launched another strike on what it claimed were Iranian missiles in Syria targeted at Israel. The strike hit a Syrian army depot. Fifteen soldiers, some of them allegedly Iranians, were killed. Even the Israeli media had trouble to find an excuse for the illegal 'preemptive' attack:

Even if Iran had no intention of launching missiles at Israel on Tuesday, the alleged Israeli strike came along and conveyed the following message to the Iranians: You raised the likelihood of an attack on Israel, so we’re raising the threat level, despite the tensions.

It is not Iran's job to respond to Israeli strikes on Syria. The Syrian government wanted to retaliate immediately to Tuesday's strike but was held back by Russian concerns. Russia saw these provocations as an Israeli trap. Yesterday Netanyahoo visited Moscow. The Russian president warned him to stop the provocations. Netanyahoo did not listen.

Last night Israel again attacked Syrian military positions in al-Quneitra in south-west Syria. This time the Syrian missile forces responded with a barrage of more than 20 missiles against Israeli positions in the occupied Golan Heights. Israel escalated further with 70 strikes against Syrian positions.

The Syrian opposition outlet SOHR confirms this chain of events:

The Israeli shelling came just before the dawn of Sunday after the fall of missiles after midnight, launched from al-Quneitra area and southwest Rif Dimashq adjacent to the occupied territories of Golan, following the Israeli shelling which took place last night and targeted locations near al-Ba’ath city in the central countryside of Quneitra.

Pictures and video from Damascus show that the Syrian air defense intercepted many of the Israeli missiles.


bigger

Israel now claims that it eliminated the "Iranian threat" in Syria:

Israel's Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman said that Israel's forces struck "nearly all the Iranian infrastructure in Syria" and said that no objects were hit on the territories of Israel.

The claim of success is a signal that it does not want to go any further:

"I hope we've finished this episode and everyone understood," Lieberman added, stressing that Israel doesn't want an escalation, but "won't let anyone attack us or build an infrastructure to attack us in the future."

The propagandist praise of an Israeli success reminds one of previous similar claims.

On the second day of the 2006 war on Lebanon Israel loudly boosted that it had destroyed "all long-range Hizbullah missiles" in a 34 minutes long air campaign. But more than 100 missiles per day continued to hit Israel, including targets in Tel Aviv far away from the Lebanese border. Thirty one days later Israel sued for peace. Its invasion of Lebanon had been defeated. Its "successful" strike against Hizbullah's long range missiles had hit mostly empty positions.

The Israeli targeting in Syria is not much better than its targeting in Lebanon twelve years ago.

Syria will now continue to respond to Israeli attacks. This time it limited its strikes to military positions in the occupied Golan heights. The next strikes will go further. This time Israel sent its population in the occupied Golan heights into bunkers. The next time half of Israel may have to go underground. How long could Israel sustain that?

Iran will also retaliate for attacks on its forces in Syria. But it does not need to do so from Syria. There are also other ways and means than sending missiles.

That Syria, after much suffering, now retaliated for the Israeli strikes draws a new line in the sand. If Israel wants a wider war it will get one. The destruction in the involved countries in the Middle East, including Israel, might thrown them back 100 years. Syria, Lebanon, and Iran could live with that.  A 100 years ago Israel did not exist.

Posted by b on May 10, 2018 at 11:41 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Israel as a de facto member of NATO is not afraid of either Iran or Syria. Israel as a state created by the international banking cartel is not afraid of any nation state that is connected to the world economy through its many institutions such as the BIS, IMF. WB, WTO/GATT, SWIFT payments system et al. Russia counsels caution in fear of an attack against the Ruble, increasing sanctions and/or a rise in interest rates under "Banker of the Year Award - Euro Zone" Elvira Nebuillina, president of the Central Bank of Russia as a member of the BIS. Nebuillina kept interests rate artificially high as the first wave of sanctions were imposed making their effective bite much worse than they might have been if she were taking orders from the Kremlin rather than BIS HQts in Basel. Those simple focused on simply the military aspects of this war are missing most of the larger picture.

The 'Resistance Bloc' elite could well be crumbling under economic pressures to get with the 'One World Order' program. Evidence is of accelerating privatization of important assets within the so called BRICS nations community. Eg: Russia with minerals and oil -Rosneft just selling 18% of itself to Glencore. Brasil with airports and very likely Petrobras. China likely to open her financial markets to foreign financial institutions to begin neo liberal economic 'structural adjustments.'

All states "exist to enforce the dominance of elites, all the rest is propaganda, misdirection, obfuscation and/or terrorism up to an including total war against any opposition." The core base of elite power being their ownership of creating all money as interest bearing debt all owed to themselves. The question of why bankers get up in the morning has long been answered.....to sell debt.

Posted by: BRF | May 11 2018 15:00 utc | 201

Laguerre @above,

There are limits to what force alone can achieve. Once those limits are reached, politics becomes necessary. I take that to be Red Rider's basic point. It is a good point to make, because it is true.

Here is one example why.

If the U.S. military occupation of Syria is part of the Syrian war--and it is--then this war cannot be "decided militarily" as you put it without the destruction or forced expulsion of the U.S. military from Syria. But neither Syria nor Russia, obviously, can directly attack U.S. troops in this way. Doing so would extend and escalate the Syrian war, not bring it to an end.

Posted by: WJ | May 11 2018 15:12 utc | 202

…relentless provocations of the US and its attack dogs Israel and Saudi Arabia in the ME, how much longer will Putin be able to avoid a world war? Lea at 8.

A long time. Putin now has six more years to sit still.

US-isr cannot attack Iran directly/seriously, their milit. bozos know it.

sidebar: Syria will go down in history, if there ever is any written up, as the ultimate proxy-war killing-ground of 'modern' times.

What we are seeing is a lot of posturing.

Deathly to be sure, horrifying, grandstanding nonetheless.

Ex. FUSUK attacks on Syria (ostensibly to protest Assad chem-blasting his own toddlers) were carefully organised through de-conflicting channels, to ensure that Russia would not retaliate. The display was a damp squib (sic) except possibly as useful for the testing of arms, communications, und so weiter, idk? As well as serving internal politics / jockeying of those involved. Ex. May in trouble at home with Brexit and her fantastical stupidity, Macron being the cutesy sucker-up busybody, etc. No elaboration needed.

KSA is in *terminal decline*, to stem the tide, grasp oppos, it is using an array of prongs (has been left out of the discussion so far, so i mention..)

reform, to provide excuses to allies who may decide to get on board, earn investment (in tourism !?) etc.;

agression Yemen, and the failed aggro against Quatar, expensive, poorly calculated

internal crackdowns to fill the state coffers, for re-distribution to conserve power of the in-Royals

(sell off of shares in oil not treated.)

Ineffective. Putin and Xi understand this I’m sure.

Posted by: Noirette | May 11 2018 15:17 utc | 203

Red Ryder says:

Everyone is playing within the limits

Israel and CENTCOM are illegally squatting on Syrian land and even killing Syrian citizens pretty much at their whim. a more criminal scenario i can't really imagine, and it kinda renders any idea of playing within the limits as risible. the limits are flux, and psychopaths don't abdicate. whatever limits you might see this week regarding the behavior of these unwelcome intruders, rest assured that next week or the next they'll shapeshift into something even more repugnant.

Posted by: john | May 11 2018 15:24 utc | 204

@WJ: I think that if the current US/Israeli/Saudi military/terrorist ground activities continue on the established pattern, eventually the US troops will be confronted in eastern Syria by the SAA. This will only happen after all the US/Zionist/Wahabbist enclaves in western Syria are eradicated and SAA forces made available to move east. Russia may then place more Russian-military-staffed S-400/etc. further east to enforce a complete no-US/Israel no-fly zone to the Iraq/Iran borders, helping Iran And Iraq seal their borders to US/terrorist activities. This is why FUKUS/Israel is risking directly bombing Syria, to provide cover of chaos and keep the SAA and Hizbolla busy in the west while FUKUS/Zionist/Wahabbists scrambles to reinvent various factions of the "moderate terrorist" mercenary cannon fodder (again).

It would be prudent, when that time comes, for Assad to present his case requiring the US to leave Syria voluntarily ASAP before the UN General Assembly (any such request before the Security Council is a waste of time and effort). The US would then have to either leave or get yet another setback in the court of public opinion, even domestically. Once western Syria is cleared of FUKUS/Israeli/Saudi-funded/armed terrorists, there is no "humanitarian" reason for the US to keep its troops in harm's way. The Syrians and their allies have proven far more capable of (willing to?) eliminating the terrorists, for obvious reasons, than the US.


Posted by: A P | May 11 2018 15:35 utc | 205

B, wake up and smell the coffee. You are behind the curve. Comment sections at South Front and Sputnik are revolting. Even major russian bloggers are becoming embarrassed by Russia.

"Russia's Lack of Reaction to Israel's Strikes on Syria Is Disgusting"

https://russia-insider.com/en/russias-lack-reaction-israels-strikes-syria-disgusting/ri23438


I told you guys that the sanctions owned Russia and they are looking for a deal with the US.

Russian Senators to soften sanctions against US

RBC: Russian senators to water down Moscow’s response to US sanctions. Two Federation Council members told the newspaper that the final version of the amendments to the ‘anti-sanctions’ bill initiated by State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin and leaders of all parliamentary factions, will be “quite mild.”

More:
http://tass.com/pressreview/1001647

Ryabkov:

Russia interested in meeting between Putin, Trump. We will work hard so that our colleagues in the US administration come to the same conclusion.

More:
http://tass.com/politics/997761

You should learn to use your brains and be more realistic, and not easily fall for overentusiastic propaganda, whether american or russian one, for that matter.

As RT says, question more. Dig deeper. Compare various viewpoints to make up your mind, not only one or two viewpoints. Understand that reality is not something that you will always like, and that things could get unpleasant sometimes, or not very nice for your ego. In order to get to the truth and escape cognitive dissonance, both pleasant and unpleasant information must be accepted.

Posted by: Observer | May 11 2018 15:52 utc | 206

B, wake up and smell the coffee. You are behind the curve. Comment sections at South Front and Sputnik are revolting. Even major russian bloggers are becoming embarrassed by Russia.

"Russia's Lack of Reaction to Israel's Strikes on Syria Is Disgusting"

https://russia-insider.com/en/russias-lack-reaction-israels-strikes-syria-disgusting/ri23438


I told you guys that the sanctions owned Russia and they are looking for a deal with the US.

Russian Senators to soften sanctions against US

RBC: Russian senators to water down Moscow’s response to US sanctions. Two Federation Council members told the newspaper that the final version of the amendments to the ‘anti-sanctions’ bill initiated by State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin and leaders of all parliamentary factions, will be “quite mild.”

More:
http://tass.com/pressreview/1001647

Ryabkov:

Russia interested in meeting between Putin, Trump. We will work hard so that our colleagues in the US administration come to the same conclusion.

More:
http://tass.com/politics/997761

You should learn to use your brains and be more realistic, and not easily fall for overentusiastic propaganda, whether american or russian one, for that matter.

As RT says, question more. Dig deeper. Compare various viewpoints to make up your mind, not only one or two viewpoints. Understand that reality is not something that you will always like, and that things could get unpleasant sometimes, or not very nice for your ego. In order to get to the truth and escape cognitive dissonance, both pleasant and unpleasant information must be accepted.

Posted by: Passer by | May 11 2018 15:53 utc | 207

@179 harry.. i agree with you..

@184 blues.. that's a good analogy - a scab.. don't pick it!!! thanks.

@186 qualtrough.. yeah - go for the organ grinder, lol...

@195 a p... gdp as currently formulated is a bankster scam / con.. i agree..

red ryder / laguerre conversation.. many good comments in it all. nothing is ever so simple, but i do agree with laguerre that i don't see syria on the ropes... it isn't a great position though as as @203 noirette points out - syria will go down as the ultimate proxy war, killing ground of modern times.. we can take just who for that? usa-ksa-israel-qatar-uae-uk-france-turkey and a number of other hanger on countries and not necessarily in that order..

remember to ignore the stupid comments that get posted here folks.. thanks for the comments from everyone..

Posted by: james | May 11 2018 16:11 utc | 208

@98

Syria is on the ropes. We disagree.

The fact that it fights with extraordinary heroism and patriotism and allegiance to its President and Sovereign nationhood does not make it a winner, yet.

It is winning, but there is the North and Turkey, the South and Israel-US-Jordan, the East with the Kurds and CENTCOM.

By itself, even with all other militias and Iran's assistance, Syria would be drained, depleted and defeated. It exists because the RF is there.

In Sept. 2015, it was weeks from total destruction.

Now, it must choose political arrangements. Can its society live with no agriculture nor oil production, and far less water?
Can it triumph against all that is aligned against it in the North, South and East?

Syria has a West, it's largest cities. But it has nowhere near control of its borders. With Russia, it has partial control of air space. It does have its ports. But its infrastructure, its grid, highways, bridges, utilities are crippled.

It heavily depends on Russian Aerospace, Russian Intel, Russian MP, Russian Reconciliation support, and Russian Humanitarian and Medical support. It's army is retrained by Russian military. It's defense against missiles, UAVs and planes is integrated with Russia's.

It is not a free standing, independent of alliances, military. I have seen numbers that indicate only 40,000 Syrians in the regular military, full fighting ready. There are three times that left over ISIS and al Nusra, and god only knows how many Kurds.

Facing the reality, Assad is 95% with Putin's plan. And Astana has to make progress for China and its billions of reconstruction money to show up and take Syria off the ropes.

Posted by: Red Ryder | May 11 2018 16:22 utc | 209

@ WJ

Political settlement <...> neither Syria nor Russia, obviously, can directly attack U.S. troops in this way. Doing so would extend and escalate the Syrian war, not bring it to an end.

1. Political settlement is impossible, literally. Even if Trump would want to (as he declared several times already) he was immediately "brought back on course". Zionists and neocons have him by the balls, and they absolutely object any reasonable negotiated exit. Just look how they treat Russia, which is 100x more powerful than Syria, and anything other than complete surrender wont satisfy neocons.

2. Neither Russia or Syria will directly attack US, thats a fact. However, resistance is being prepared and "non-state actors" can make the life of invaders a living hell. Hezbollah has lots of experience of expelling both US and Israel, and they are more than willing to share their expertise with Syrians.

Posted by: Harry | May 11 2018 16:34 utc | 210

Seems there are two factors causing consternation amongst Zionist and Outlaw US Empire military about the changed rules of engagement and Syria's air defense network's outstanding performances. As the SAA FB citation I provided noted, many Zionist jets were painted but not shot down since they were outside Syrian airspace, which is a very important factor not being discussed. Not much is required to expand the RoE to include jets having launched missiles regardless of their location. Imagine sending up 24 jets and losing 50% while launching an absolutely ineffective missile barrage. I posit that's the big change in the strategic picture--and not just in the Syrian Theatre. NATO planners must now replan everything arranged versus Russia, and Outlaw US Empire similarly versus China and Iran. And we needn't worry about the lack of S-300/S-400 in Syria as Iran will eventually supply its version of those to Syria and Lebanon.

Mercouris writes about the above and excerpts part of a Russian MoFA's statement about the latest Outlaw US Empire's sanctions; teaser:

"Washington continues to nurture the illusion that economic or military pressure can prevent Russia from upholding its own interests and supporting its partners. A desire to maintain its unilateral global domination despite the costs involved is prompting the United States to take irrational and openly dangerous steps. We would like to tell US politicians that trying to “punish” everyone who pursues an independent policy is not a good idea. The latest sanctions essentially amount to recognition of the combat capabilities of the Soviet and Russian weapons used by the Syrian air defence crews on April 14, when they shot down the bulk of the incoming missiles." [Mercouris's emphasis] (Note the escalation in rhetoric as seen in 2nd sentence.)

Anger directed at Putin is greatly mistaken, IMO. It's Russia's policy stance vis-à-vis the Zionist state that requires criticism and modification, particularly its terrorist support and State Terrorism policies.

Will Syria adjust its strategy as a result of the Zionist attacks? The current operations continue without easing; so, I would say it's too soon to tell. The Zionists will certainly have to change their posture in Golan.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2018 16:53 utc | 211

Harry @209,


See Noirette @203, Red Ryder @208 and earlier.

A political resolution to Syria War 2.0 (to borrow from RedRyder) is not possible *now*. But neither, for that matter, is a solely military one.

Each is not possible *now* for different reasons. You mention some of the reasons why a political resolution is not currently possible, but not the most important. The most important reason why a political resolution is not possible *now* is that Syria remains in the condition described by Red Ryder @208. The long, slow, messy process of Syria's stabilization qua state needs to be much further along before any political resolution can take place.

A military resolution to Syria War 2.0 is not possible because the situation imposes de facto limits on the ability of the involved states to use military force effectively. These limits are set far below the degree of force necessary to resolve the situation militarily. The presence of Russia in Syria is the most important limit-imposing factor of the situation.

The Russians know very well it will be a long time before a political resolution is possible. They also know that so long as they remain in Syria until such a resolution *is* possible, the conditions for a purely military resolution of the situation will never arise.

Posted by: WJ | May 11 2018 17:04 utc | 212

re WJ 202

If the U.S. military occupation of Syria is part of the Syrian war--and it is--then this war cannot be "decided militarily" as you put it without the destruction or forced expulsion of the U.S. military from Syria.
You really don't understand, do you? You believe the US bullsh*t to the end. The US army wasn't defeated in the field in Iraq, but they were forced out. Actually the same was true in Vietnam. The US was not directly defeated there, but they were forced out, in both cases not by agreement. The same will happen again, because the US has particularly exacting conditions for staying, and they'll never get them.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 17:31 utc | 213

Semi-OT: Iraqi elections this Saturday prompt this musing thread about the changing political dynamic thanks to Trump's breaking the JCPOA and Abadi's seemingly close relations with Outlaw US Empire. His conclusion:

"11-It took the threat of #ISIS to mobilize and radicalize Shias to come together and see themselves as part of a regional struggle. And just as that struggle was coming to an end, #IranDealExit presents a new looming purpose to push them to come together again."

Seems energy politics are complicating Iraqi/Russian relations, but that's certainly OT.

Here's what seems to be confirmation of the soon to begin SAA Southern Offensive:

"According to a military source in Damascus, the Syrian Arab Army’s upcoming offensive in the Dara’a and Al-Quneitra governorates will likely witness Israeli interference due to the latter’s fears over a larger Hezbollah-Iranian presence along the Golan Heights."

It's quite possible Russia misread the level of Syrian hatred for the Zionist State and has compounded a schism with the continued non-delivery of S-300.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2018 17:38 utc | 214

Here is a narrative of the Israeli attacks on Syria (apparently almost as they were occurring) by Jake Morphonios (Blackstone Intelligence --youtube channel)
Of note:
(First 7 min is re Trump withdrawing from Iran deal and implications of this)
This person is interesting to listen to as he is an informed American trying to educate others in his country re the awfulness of these illegal wars of aggression started by the west, neocons
He is a Christian but NOT a Zionist
He is a supporter of second ammendment gun rights but not a Trump supporter
ie He will reach people who may not venture over to this wonderful site
He acknowledges a pattern of Israeli aggression/'preemptive' strikes
He seems to have a pretty good network of info resources coming in from around the world...

Re the Israeli attacks, he notes leadup actions by Israel (calling up reserves, putting hospitals on high 'full scale war level' emergency alert)
Israeli and US spy planes flying over Syria day before
Unusual flying pattern of some Russian jets flying in same area as Israeli jets in Lebannon during the attacks--he suspects that Russian jets may have been harassing the Israeli jets.,.
Violation of Lebanese air space by Israeli jets, with some jets breaking the sound barrier. Lebanese people wondering if they are targets of the attack, d/t Israeli anger at outcome of Lebanese election
Several British Royal Air Force flying over Syria at same time as Israeli attacks, unsure what missions they were carrying out
Apparent buildup of thousands of US troops in Jordan near border with Golan hts
This person does believe that the USA/Israel plan is to attack Iran...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYj2RnWBfM

Posted by: Bluemot5 | May 11 2018 17:52 utc | 215

@john wilson, #2

What I want to know is, where are all those defensive missiles that Russia has provided to Syria and why are they not being used?

+

@ Sharon, #21

Israel bombs Syria at will, and Russia doesn't seem to care a hoot about it. An ally would have used military force by now to stop the bombings.

To remind some facts:

[1] Russia is in Syria by official call of legitimate Syrian government.

[2] Russia is in Syria for one purpose - to help Syrian authorities to fight terrorists.

[3] The main purpose (see [2]) does not imply that Russia will/must/have to responce on any other kind of aggression against Syria - for example, American or Israeli missiles/bomb attacks on Syria.

[4] Russia has no obligation(s) to protect Syrian land/army/forces/facilities/people using its S-400 and other air defense systems.

[5] Once again - Russia's task/purpose/aim in Syria is to help Syrian authorities to fight terrorists only (mean, not any other aggressors).

[6] Russia delivered S-400 complexes and other serious military equipment to Syria with only one purpose - to protect their own (mean, Russian) forces in Syria.

[7] S-400 complexes were delivered to Syria after Turkey shot down Russian SU-24 plane on November 24, 2015.

[8] Since that (see [7]) Russian air defense systems (S-400, "Pantsyr" & other) are used to cover Russian aircraft operations in Syria against terrorists.

[9] Russia has no official and full-fledged "ally agreement" with Syria.

[10] This kind of "ally agreement" (see [9]) would mean that if someone (US, Israel etc.) will attack Syria, Russia must fully step into war on the Syrian side and fight the aggressor. In fact, it would mean that Russia must start the full war with US or/and with Israel. This is unacceptable for Russia (Does not mean that Russia can't do it. It mean that to have war with US/Israel is not correspond to the national interests of Russia at this time).

[11] Yes, you can call Russia an ally of Syria, of course, but must understand that this mean figurative sense, considering [9] & [10].


So everytime when some part - US or Israel - launch a new aggression on Syria, please don't expect that Russia is the one who will/must take action and response with its weapons. Russia does not have this kind of obligation(s). Russia will use its weapons only when Russian (i stress - Russian, not Syrian, or Iranian) troops/forces/facilities/people will be in danger.

Posted by: alaff | May 11 2018 18:00 utc | 216

alaff

Actually no one is saying that Russia should bomb Israel, what many are rightfully criticizing Russia for is their rejection of a S300 (and other relative weapons) contract for Damascus.

Posted by: Anon | May 11 2018 18:03 utc | 217

Ex-Finance Minister Kudrin to head Accounts Chamber

http://tass.com/economy/1003887

Posted by: Passer by | May 11 2018 18:17 utc | 218

@212 karlof1

I noticed that Canthama report by SAA to the effect that they painted Israeli jets but the ROE didn't permit their being shot down.

This reminds me so much of the Russian ability to slice escalation into very thin increments. This is now a negotiation element for deconfliction agreements between soldiers.

I also read Mercouris and his reprise of Russia's continued training of the Syrian air defense. So many steps forward here lately.

~~

All the moves forward get ignored, don't they, by the first excuse for negatives to be applied by commenters - a few from honest questioning, many from malice. I'm not worried about the S-300 one way or another. That Pantsir seems to be a hell of a unit however, and I'll bet this one they lost is the last one SAA will allow.

In my view, it's Israel that's on the ropes. Russia is not going to leave Syria, probably not ever, but at least not for half a century. Syria will become whole, and Russia will bring peace. And in the cooperation between Russia and Syria, as the campaign proceeds, there exist numerous thin slices of "escalation here, moderation there" on the table to be negotiated, as between allies.

Posted by: Grieved | May 11 2018 18:33 utc | 219

BRF 202
The banksters (sellers of debt) have codependents in governments. The revolving door works well for both. PBS Frontline ran a recent show on Puerto Rico and how the recovery has to deal with an old/aging electrical system and a generator facility 50 years old. Why didn't the govt put money into it? After their manufacturing left (after special status was removed), the govt lacked revenues. Not wanting to cut programs or personnel, they dug themselves a deep hole of debt thanks to banksters moving in to buy and resell it knowing full well the debt was losing its value. People who bought the debt lost. For the banks it was business as usual.

Posted by: Curtis | May 11 2018 18:40 utc | 220

Grieved @220--

We are much on the same page. Zionist attack must affect Iraqi election in some manner, likely helping Maliki's faction. Unfortunately, info on this election's very thin despite its importance.

Posted Korybko's latest on Open Thread. Think he's lost his way. When, if ever, did Russia demand Syria show Iran and Hezbollah to the exit? I never read anything of the sort, nor does Korybko provide any linked documentation in support of his assertion.

The coming battle for Daraa and Jordanian border will be a big test of many circles. IMO, strategically for Syria, regaining Golan outranks retaking Idlib at this time and securing Turkish border. Oh, and critique/discuss all you like!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2018 19:02 utc | 221

Posted by: mireille | May 10, 2018 9:26:27 PM | 152

Fascinating article you've linked! Thank you. I encourage people to read that article. It connects part of the motive for the invasion of Iraq and its oil to the leading neocons figures, financiers, mossad and the Israeli government quite succinctly.

Posted by: jsb | May 11 2018 19:18 utc | 222

karlof1 222

I suspect the battle for the southern area is linked to the S-300. Saying they were reconsidering the S-300 for Syria gave Russia a lot of leverage over Israel without threatening them directly.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 11 2018 19:20 utc | 223

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 11, 2018 3:20:57 PM | 224

It looks like Russia will not supply the S-300s to Syria:


“Technologically, it is absolutely incorrect to link this [Kozhin’s words] with Netanyahu’s visit because the interview was given before Netanyahu’s visit,” the acting Kremlin spokesman pointed out.

Russia has never announced such deliveries and only specified that it reserves the right in the wake of US-led airstrikes against Syria to do everything possible in this situation.

In an interview published on Friday, Kozhin said that Russia was not delivering the S-300 air defense missile systems to Syria and no talks had been underway on their delivery thus far.

As the acting Kremlin spokesman added, the Syrian army “has everything it needs.”

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/nixing-delivery-of-s-300s-to-syria-unrelated-to-israeli-pms-visit-to-russia-kremlin/

Posted by: jsb | May 11 2018 19:24 utc | 224

@217 alaff... with all due respect to you and Putin, Russia (the country and its assets) is already in danger, just by its presence in the ME and Ukraine. In fact, even if Russia were to withdraw from all locations outside its borders it would still be in danger as IT is also a target of ZATO.

As well, from what I understand both Iran and Syria are regarded as allies to Russia

And so, to paraphrase that renowned American philosopher, G.W.Bush: "better to take the fight to them over there, than back at home" (or words to that effect)

Personally I believe Putin is doing just that - in a methodical, calculated fashion - and in a manner in keeping with comments earlier in this thread

Posted by: xLemming | May 11 2018 19:31 utc | 225

Posted by: Grieved | May 11, 2018 2:33:01 PM | 220

In my view, it's Israel that's on the ropes. Russia is not going to leave Syria, probably not ever, but at least not for half a century. Syria will become whole, and Russia will bring peace. And in the cooperation between Russia and Syria, as the campaign proceeds, there exist numerous thin slices of "escalation here, moderation there" on the table to be negotiated, as between allies.
Yeah, that's good. It's difficult to see what the Israeli attack achieved. It's was mainly Syrians who suffered, and their weapons will be replaced, even if progress to S300 is refused.

The main Russian aim will have been to prevent things progressing to outright war, and to WW3, while keeping Asad going on his road, which is to reunite Syria.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 19:48 utc | 226

Russia may not leave Syria, but they won't deliver it either. They already traded away sections of it for all intents and purposes. It didn't help that the SAA were on the verge of defeat, but fighters have been left out to dry (or die) in the northeast, numerous times. IIRC, Iran had to go over Russia's head at one point, so Iran seems to be fully aware that Russia, or at least Putin is or can be a weak ally

Posted by: aaaa | May 11 2018 20:02 utc | 227

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11, 2018 3:02:11 PM | 222

The coming battle for Daraa and Jordanian border will be a big test of many circles. IMO, strategically for Syria, regaining Golan outranks retaking Idlib at this time and securing Turkish border.
I doubt that will be a major battle. Too destructive of Syrian forces. The Russians will have advised against, Some progress in recovery of territory perhaps.

Once post-Israeli attack things have calmed down, Syrian policy will return to the north.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 20:08 utc | 228

Posted by: aaaa | May 11, 2018 4:02:53 PM | 228

Good to hear a US troll in action. Pity their arguments aren't better.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 20:23 utc | 229

The question here, it seems to me, is whether the Israeli attacks are going to be renewed. All their aims are unlikely to have been achieved in one night only. They would need further attacks to finish off what they claim, for all the bits they missed.

If they don't, you have to wonder whether it wasn't a failure.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 20:34 utc | 230

I am trying to think of a descriptive term for this sort of proxy taunting warfare, limited to less than nukes and battles carried out within defined constraints.....sphincter to sphincter, so to speak.

Even though I hold no grudge against the nation of Israel, its defeat as a nation will also mean the demise of private finance globally, which I am a huge fan of. It will also mean that humanity can evolve beyond the cultural lock of monotheistic theology as defined as patriarchy, usury, God of Mammon narratives, etc.

Thanks to b and all for my ongoing enlightenment.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 11 2018 20:54 utc | 231

This thread shows what happened to the Pantsir-1 that got hit by the Kamikaze drone. The daylight pics were taken after the action in answer to the protesting twitterbug.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2018 21:20 utc | 232

I'd be surprised if a set-back for Israel would lead to a set-back for global finance. The two are not related.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 11 2018 21:21 utc | 233

@231 Failure? Well if their aims include getting the US to go to war with Iran I'd say the project still needs some work.

Posted by: dh | May 11 2018 21:33 utc | 234

karlof1 233

The truck unit for the Pantsir system is left hand drive. Habib climbed in the right hand side and I believe into the rear Pantsir control cabin. I had thought he would not be entering the control cabin on seeing the drone if it was out of ammo (as he was running to the unit, I take it he had spotted the drone).

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 11 2018 22:01 utc | 235

My other thought on the Pantsir strike is that the hit and video may not even be from the recent engagement. The drone may have moved in some time in the recent past, undetected by the main radars and taken the Pantsir by surprise. I would guess Pantsirs stay switched off unless told to turn their systems on so as to avoid giving away their location.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 11 2018 22:07 utc | 236

Peter AU 1 @236&7--

I was surprised by how little damage was done to the unit. As I understand it, the current Syrian air defense network is integrated with the one deployed by Russia and thus gets targeting info from other sources than that on the individual Pantsir or other AA unit so it doesn't give its position away by lighting its radar. Doctrine would have the unit move to another firing position after unmasking itself. So, it's hard to explain the actions of the crew in this case; perhaps they thought the attack was over. If it needed reloading, then why was it just sitting and not moving toward or already at its reloading point? I can't help but think the dead man went against his training and the Zionists lucked-out.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2018 22:51 utc | 237

Israel and Iran are like dogs. The Iran deal was like a leash on Iran. When a dog is leashed it snarls and barks and lunges aggressively at other dogs. Perhaps Trump is playing the "Dog Whisperer" Acting calm yet assertive he unleashes Iran. Perhaps now Israel and Iran will sniff each others privates and work it out.

Posted by: Skeptical Sam | May 12 2018 0:30 utc | 238

karlof1 238

From the Israeli video it looked as if the drone hit the control cabin. I see in the pic the control cabin is gone. On looking at the pics again, the unit may well have been waiting for a reload as all the missiles had been fired. If so Syria has an issue with reloading that needs fixing. At its rate of fire and ammunition load, the twin auto cannons have 17 seconds firing time.
It may well have had a few cannon rounds left which is why Habib ran for the control cabin.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 12 2018 0:39 utc | 239

Peter @240--

Well, if that was the reason for Habib, then he was both foolish and brave. A mistake was made; a man died needlessly. Hopefully a lesson was learned and such an incident won't recur.

Many would like to link current Zionist behavior to the Jewish Holocaust experience/education at the hands of the Nazis. Unfortunately, that thesis fails since Zionist terrorism in Palestine predates Hitler's rise. Thus, Zionist State Terrorism is homegrown--or is it a shared trait amongst all "settler states," including USA? My answer--a qualified yes--in no way exonerates such behavior.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2018 1:04 utc | 240

>>>>> WJ | May 10, 2018 10:48:42 PM | 162

For a start the White Helmets are nothing to do with ISIS, they have never operated in ISIS controlled territory as far as I know.

he obviously failed to grasp the importance of "killing off" the op.

You obviously know nothing about the work of Sefton Delmer - he established fake radio stations that pretended to be irregular German radio stations then after a while the "authorities" caught up with the operators and there was a fake gun battle with the fake station going off the air. Sefton Delmer's reasoning was that if the fake radio stations stayed on the air too long, the audience would begin to wonder just how the station remained active so long and begin to realize it was fake making it less effective.

Now that most of western Syria has been cleared of the salafists, people are beginning to realize that the White Helmets are not the Syrian Civil Defence but the Salafist Civil Defence because when the salafists get bused to Idlib, their mates in the White Helmets go with them. Once people start asking questions about the nature of the White Helmets, all the black propaganda they have spread (e.g., chemical weapons attacks in East Ghouta, Khan Shakhoun and Douma) starts to be seen as propaganda. The British should have shut down the White Helmets perhaps with claims that the SAG had massacred the White Helmets, so that people would stop asking questions about them and preserve the black propaganda. But the British government and some members of the British Labour Party are too stupid to do that because they've forgotten the First Law of Black Propaganda - Don't ever believe your own fucking black propaganda!

BTW, Sefton Delmer wrote an autobiography book, Black Boomerang, about his black propaganda activities which is worth reading but unfortunately it's out of print and remarkably is not available on Abebooks last time I looked - read into that what you like but I'm guessing somebody's buying up all the copies.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | May 12 2018 1:43 utc | 241

@240 peter and @241 karlof1.

https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

Posted by: james | May 12 2018 4:06 utc | 242

James, thanks for the link.
According to wikipedia there is one reloading unit per two Pantsir units. The reload unit carries two reloads.
In thinking about the reloading, although the missile canisters could be reloaded on the racks in just a few minutes by the Pantsir crew and reloading vehicle crew, there is two to three tons of ammunition for the auto cannons. 1400 hundred rounds, - each projectile according to wikipedia 0.97kg weight of casing, propellant and projectile would be 1.5 to 2 kilos.
A landcruiser size vehicle carrying 2-3 missile reloads accompanying each Pantsir unit...?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | May 12 2018 5:24 utc | 243

@ Anon, #218:

Actually no one is saying that Russia should bomb Israel

Really? Hmm, how else to interpret, for example, these words?:

john wilson, #2:

Lets hope that the Jews drop a bomb on Russian assets and the Russians respond in a way that makes Israel think twice before it attacks Syria again.

And on the whole - "...many are rightfully criticizing Russia...

I mean, does Russia owe anything to anyone? No. Why all claims always to Russia? Why no claims, for example, to China for not supplying Syria with air defense systems and other weapons? Or India..?

For more than 2 years, Russia has done more for Syria than anyone else.
I hope people will not forget this too quickly.

Posted by: alaff | May 12 2018 13:24 utc | 244

@ Anon, #218

Actually no one is saying that Russia should bomb Israel, what many are rightfully criticizing Russia for is their rejection of a S300 (and other relative weapons) contract for Damascus.

To add some more thoughts on this point:

Do you really think that if Russia would supply Syria with S-300 complexes, it will solve the problem?
Do you really think that Israel would stop attacking Syria, and escalation would be reduced?

I think it's vice versa.

Look:

This is naive to think that if Syria will have S-300, Israel will stop their aggression on Syria.
Israel officially stated that if Syria will use S-300 against them, then Israel will destroy these ADS.
Using S-300 against Israel will lead to only one result - escalation of conflict, and this time it will be a conflict not between Israel and Iran (cuz Israel often "justify" its attacks/aggression by "danger from Iranian forces in Syria"), this will be a direct serious conflict between Israel and Syria.

Do you think B.Assad need this kind of conflict now?
He has too many problems. There's no sense to add one more big problem.

Plus, If Russia would supply Syria with S-300, this would mean a serious aggravation of relationships between Russia and Israel. Russia don't need this. Israel don't need this.
Having good/stable relationships practically with all countries of the region let Russia to conduct successful productive politics.
And Russia is not interested to lose this advantageous disposition.

Yes, S-300 can be used to shot down missiles, but its main purpose is to shot down the carriers, i.e. aircraft/helicopters.
If Syria will shot down Israeli aircraft with S-300, Israel will launch a large-scale attack on Syria - this is obvious. And this attack will be not just a new air attack, but "highly likely"(c) Israel may send its troops (soldiers) on the ground to Syria.
So Syrian army will have to fight on two fronts - against Israel, and against terrorists.
I don't think Syria is interested in this kind of situation.

Plus, these are additional risks for Russia. We can know/understand what's really going on in Syria, who fighting who, who are "white helmets", that all these "chemical attacks" are staged fakes, that B.Assad is not a "bloody butcher" whose only desire is to kill Syrians, and other things. We can know/understand this. But "reality" for world leaders and MSM is completely different. We know how they (deliberately) portray B.Assad and Syrian government (aka "Syrian regime"). Well, imagine Russia supply S-300 to Syria. For normal people (who understand what's going on) it will look like Russia is helping Syria to fight aggressors. But for the "world community" (properly informed by MSM) it will look like "evil Putin" is helping a "bloody Syrian regime" with weapons that "animal Assad" can use against "innocent neighbours", and that this weapons supply will change the balance of power in the region in favor of "bloody Syrian regime". The following logic of Western bastard elites - Russia must be punished for "helping a bloody Syrian regime" this way. What about a dose of new sanctions against Russia? That's right, let's do it.

So all is not simple, but much more complex than it seems.

I'm not trying to "protect" or "justify" Israel. I am definitely not an Israel fan.
I would love Russia to deliver not S-300, but S-400 to Syria. More to say - I would love Russia to response to any attack against Syria and destroy enemy missiles/aircraft - because Russia has forces/equipment to do it.
But these are just desires/wishes. They have nothing to do with reality.

I'll tell you more - Russia also have to somehow solve the "Iran problem" in Syria. I mean, Iran' influence (+ pro-Iran forces) in Syria is a serious concern for Israel, and often a reason(s) for Israeli aggression. You can like or don't like it, but you can't ignore it (if you really want to solve the problem). So Russia, in negotiating with Syrian leadership, first need to solve this issue, maybe to find some consensus - Iranian presense in Syria must be "officialized" in some form, or Iran' presense in Syria will have to be "limited" by somehow, or Iran will have to leave Syria on some conditions (profitable for Iran) etc. This is a difficult issue.

I think there's a chance Russia can/will supply Syria with S-300 (or maybe even with S-400), but later. This is not what Russia must do now - while terrorists are not yet defeated in Syria, and while "Iran danger" in Syria for Israel is not yet solved. When these tasks will be fulfiled - when "terrorist danger" will not be topical for Syria, and when Iran' presense in Syria will not be considered a "deadly danger" for Israel - then it will be possible to seriously discuss S-300 (or even S-400) to be delivered to Syria.

Posted by: alaff | May 12 2018 18:23 utc | 245

alaff

Do you really think that if Russia would supply Syria with S-300 complexes, it will solve the problem? Do you really think that Israel would stop attacking Syria, and escalation would be reduced?

Yes definately, thats what Israel constantly talk with Russia about. Do not sell it. Obvious why. And since they wont, Israel know they can keep bombing Syria.
It cant be the fault of Syria that they want protection against constant aggression and occupation. They cant sit back forever and accept these attacks.

Posted by: Anon | May 12 2018 18:42 utc | 246

alaff

I also dont understand this "understanding" of what Israel want - you want the victim to accept the aggressor's concern. Syria have the right be allied with anyone they want. Out of the question-topic.

Posted by: Anon | May 12 2018 18:45 utc | 247

@244 peter au... thanks for the additional info on that.. i don't understand how it all works, so am unable to help..

@247/248 Anon.. you have a particular read on what is happening and there are others here who see it very differently then you.. can you accept that at different points in time in your life, you might have viewed something very differently then how you view it now for example? why not accept that others who don't share your view, may still have a valid perspective? this is the part of your persona that is most challenging to others here at moa.. express your view and leave it at that.. why the need to challenge others here all the time who have a different view then you? that i don't understand... it would seem you think there is only one way to move forward here, and not a multitude of ways...

Posted by: james | May 12 2018 18:59 utc | 248

james

We are debating here, people agree on some things we disagree on others, why make a big deal out of it? Your comment could be directed toward yourself - accept that people have diffent views.

Posted by: Anon | May 12 2018 19:34 utc | 249

Here’s a thought, just something to put out for discussion.

Pat Lang at sst mentioned several days before this brief blow-up that he had heard that the Israelis were furiously blanketing the Golan with EW, jamming Syrian radars and attempting to disrupt Syrian communications.

Maybe, juuuuusssssst maybe, this little escalation of fire really was indeed deliberately instigated by the Syrians, who were looking for an excuse - any excuse - to fire on the IDF base on Mnt Hermon to attempt to put a stop to all that Israeli Electronic funny-business.

Just a thought, but if I were the Syrians then I would have been sorely tempted to do exactly that.

After all, it is not as if the Israelis weren’t asking fer’ it.....

Anyone know the current state of Mount Hermon? Some new smoking craters on the satellite images, by any chance?


Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 13 2018 2:45 utc | 250

@251 yeah right.. paveway made a few posts on the topic of your question at pat langs site... other then that - i don't know...

what i find interesting though is how israel said iran had lobbed 20 missiles towards israel.. the western msm immediately took that and ran with it.. i doubt that is true, but - who needs fact when you are reporting for the world?

Posted by: james | May 13 2018 16:47 utc | 251

@252 James, I think that there is zero chance that Assad would allow the Iranians within rocket-firing distance to the Golan Heights. Why would he agree to that, when he has his own rockets and they are manned by people who take orders from him alone.

The Israeli claim is nonsense. The IDF fired into Syria, and the Syrian army - for once, and no doubt to Netanyahu's considerable surprise - fired back.

The question is why they chose now to fire back, and that's why I recalled Pat Lang's statement as a possible reason.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 13 2018 22:22 utc | 252

Hassan Nasrallah confirmed today what I wrote above:

Hezbollah says ‘new phase’ in war with Israel after strikes

BEIRUT (AP) — The leader of Lebanon’s Hezbollah says a barrage of rockets from Syria against Israeli forces in the occupied Goal Heights last week opens up “a new phase” in the conflict, warning that Israel proper could be the next target.

Hassan Nasrallah said Monday that Israel has been informed through an international body that retaliation inside Israel will take place if it crosses “a red line” in Syria, without providing specifics.

Nasrallah said Israel’s response to the barrage of rockets from Syria hit empty locations and he accused Israel of downplaying its losses from those strikes.

“If you think you can continue to hit, destroy and kill in Syria without any response, you are wrong,” Nasrallah said addressing Israel. “This qualitative rocket attack establishes a completely new phase.”

Posted by: b | May 14 2018 18:32 utc | 253

@253 yeah, right.. i concur..

@254 b... thanks for that update.. the game is changing..

Posted by: james | May 14 2018 21:25 utc | 254

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