Operation Hades Blamed Russia - A Model For The 'Novichok' Claims?
(This is a 'working thread' to collect various items related to the alleged 'Novichok' incident in Salisbury and the fate of the British spy Sergej Skripal and his daughter Yulia. For a wider overview of the case please check our longer write-ups linked at the end of this post.)
The Russian government sent fourteen specific questions to the British government and thirteen questions to the OPCW. There seems to be some French involvement in the investigation of the alleged nerve agent and Russia ask why that is the case.
Alexander Yakovenko, the Russian ambassador to Britain, further increased the pressure on Theresa May by publicly asserting that the Skripal case was a 'provocation' carried out by British intelligence.
Telepolis points out (in German) that this would not be the first time that a 'western' service would stage such a 'provocation'. The Skripal case is indeed quite comparable to Operation Hades.
On August 10 1994 German officials in Munich 'found' 363 grams of plutonium on a plane coming from Moscow. They immediately asserted, that the plutonium 'must' have come from a Russian reactor. There was a lot of media panic, international political noise and condemnation of Russia.
Time Cover August 29 1994
This put pressure on the Russian government to increase its security at its nuclear sites. The U.S. offered to 'help' with nuclear security and thus got easy access to Russia's nuclear secrets. The case broke in the mid of the federal election campaign in Germany and helped chancellor Kohl to get re-elected.
Months later first leaks appeared, reporters dug deeper into the story, it all started to unravel.
Der Spiegel filled ten pages (in German) with the explosive story.
"How German secret agents invented the plutonium hazard"
It turned out that the plutonium was not from Russia but had been planted by the German equivalent of the MI6, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND). More leaks and counter-leaks created a convoluted story of a sting operation gone wrong to hide the truth behind it. It was a fake incident from A to Z, a scam created for solely political reasons. A parliamentarian commission investigated the case but the Kohl government eventually shut it down without any political consequences. Shortly thereafter the deeply involved BND head, Bernd Schmidbauer, was sent into retirement.
The Russian depict the 'Novichok' case as a staged 'provocation'. There is a historic antetype for such a 'provocation' by a 'western' intelligence service. That gives the Russian claim some significant merit.
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It took only nine month for the 1994 'Operation Hades' story to fall apart. The 'Novichok' fairy-tale may now see an even earlier end.
Sky News Breaking @SkyNewsBreak -Chief executive of Porton Down research laboratory has told Sky News scientists have not been able to prove the Novichok nerve agent used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal came from Russia or establish its country of origin
Mind the gap, Mrs. May. Mind the credibility gap.
Video of Mr. Aitkenhead's Sky News interview. (Nice word play included: He only provides scientific evidence. The government may additionally have 'other' (i.e. unscientific) evidence to make a case.)
In light of the Proton Down statement we can now state that Boris Johnson, on March 20 on DW, proved to be an 'absolutely categorical' liar:
You argue that the source of this nerve agent, Novichok, is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of it?BJ: Let me be clear with you … When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory …
So they have the samples …
BJ: They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, "Are you sure?" And he said there's no doubt.
In the interview Boris Johnson tried to preemptively put any eventual fault in the case on Porton Down. Today he received the response.
Payback is a bitch, Mr Johnson. A biting bitch.
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The Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media, a number British academics, published an update to their briefing ‘Doubts about Novichoks’ at Tim Hayward's site.
The update carefully distinguishes and discusses the various chemical substances and research programs relevant to the British 'Novichok' claims. The 'Novichok' nerve agents Vil Mirzayanov describes in his book seem to differ from the substances other Russian scientists talked about in their recent interviews. The U.S. though, as well as other countries, has evidently worked on some of the substances described by Mirzayanov and concealed these efforts from the OPCW. The Working Group concludes:
The UK government has asserted that “No country bar Russia has combined capability, intent and motive” to carry out the Salisbury poisonings. Published studies show that these compounds can be synthesized at bench scale (sufficient for an assassination) in other countries. The UK government’s declared case therefore rests only on subjective judgements of “intent and motive”, which are open to question.
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A few days ago Victoriya Skripal, a cousin of Yulia Skripal, was interviewed by the Russian website MKRU (Ru). The Stalkerzone provides an English translation of the full interview. From it we learn that:
- Victoriya Skripal tried to get information on her allegedly poisoned cousin Yulia and uncle Sergej from the British embassy in Russia since March 5. She also unsuccessfully tried to contact the hospital in Salisbury. She heard from the Russian embassy in Britain that Yulia is awake, can eat and drink and can say a few words.
- Shortly before the incident Yulia had gained access to some $200,000 owned by her deceased brother. This, for now, seems to have nothing to do with the case.
- Sergej Skripal is not a lone man but has a number of friends and family in Russia and in Britain who visited him regularly in Salisbury.
- Sergej Skripal has two cats and two guinea pigs. Victoriya Skripal asks: What happened to them? (They licked the doorknob and turned into walking-dead?)
- Victoriya Skripal wants to travel to Britain and bring at least Yulia back home with her.
Victoriya Skripal apparently also did an interview with the Mail Online (or the Mail plagiarized its piece from MKRU). There seems to be no additional information in it.
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British officials spread various theories about where and how the Skripal's were poisoned. According to 'official' leaks to the British press the alleged nerve agent was smeared to the door of Sergej Skripal's car, was in a pizza, in Yulia Skripal's luggage or perfume, or in the car's air vent. I may have been sprayed by a mini drone, or the stuff was smeared onto to the doorknob of Skripal's house or maybe it was, as claimed yesterday, in buckwheat cereals brought from Russia on Sergej Skripal's request.
In my view none of these explanation is plausible. The multitude of the discussed possibilities alone shows that either no one has a clue of what happened and how it happened, or someone is trying to bury the case in a heap of misinformation. We shall call this phenomena 'Novi-fog'. It unmasks headlines like this one as mere propaganda: Poisoned Door Handle Hints at High-Level Plot to Kill Spy, U.K. Officials Say. "It was on the doorknob (maybe)! Thus Putin himself did it!"
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John Helmer, who reports from Moscow, documents that the British government is breaking several British laws as well as international agreements by keeping the family and the consular service of the Russian embassy in Britain away from the Skripals.
Previous Moon of Alabama reports on the Skripal case:
- March 8 - Poisioned British-Russian Double-Agent Has Links To Clinton Campaign
- March 12 - Theresa May's "45 Minutes" Moment
- March 14 - Are 'Novichok' Poisons Real? - May's Claims Fall Apart
- March 16 - The British Government's 'Novichok' Drama Was Written By Whom?
- March 18 - NHS Doctor: "No Patients Have Experienced Symptoms Of Nerve Agent Poisoning In Salisbury"
- March 21 - Russian Scientists Explain 'Novichok' - High Time For Britain To Come Clean (Updated)
- March 29 - Last Act Of 'Novichok' Drama Revealed - "The Skripals' Resurrection"
- March 31 - Hillary Clinton Ordered Diplomats To Suppress 'Novichok' Discussions
Posted by b on April 3, 2018 at 16:23 UTC | Permalink
next page »"Spy Poisoning Saves May from Losing Power" - that is an honest headline that you'll never see in the UK press.
Posted by: WorldBLee | Apr 3 2018 16:50 utc | 2
From the Guardian, Porton Down experts claim the nerve agent was Novichok but say they can't prove it was produced by Russia. Also, Yulia seems to have recovered spontaneously from the alleged military grade nerve agent as no antidote is available to counteract the effects. That's some military grade weapon!
Posted by: Gareth | Apr 3 2018 16:52 utc | 3
b's comment = a key distinction--
"The UK government’s declared case therefore rests only on subjective judgements of “intent and motive”, which are open to question."
This is the crux of the matter, with nothing to indicate otherwise as to a definitive case.
Further confirmed by today's report that the source of the poison cannot be id'd.
Posted by: Sid2 | Apr 3 2018 17:03 utc | 5
The OPCW should test it against the known samples held by the British. This is an obvious step for them and is quit telling that they are not doing this. The full OPCW interview is still very hawkish ... https://news.sky.com/story/porton-down-experts-unable-to-identify-precise-source-of-novichok-that-poisoned-spy-11315387
1. They are going with the 'it's military grade and must have been made by a state actor' (test Porton Down)
2. They will meet with the British secret services to see what other evidence they have.
Posted by: Christian Chuba | Apr 3 2018 17:12 utc | 6
May has Wil.E.Coyote moment:
No 10 tries to calm Russia row amid cold war rhetoric
Downing Street has issued a plea for “proportionate” action from Russia to the Salisbury poisoning row after its foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, warned that relations with the west are now worse than during the cold war.
That's not "novichok" darling, that's "chutzpah".
Posted by: DomesticExtremist | Apr 3 2018 17:20 utc | 7
It is Highly Likely that the British did it.
They had the means, the manpower, the interest, and a purpose (motive).
The proof is they can't prove that anyone else, much less the Russians did it.
They were 8miles away with all the technical means to produce a poison.
They have acted like any criminal does when exposed. They blame others, particularly, their obsessed enemy against whom they have acted vilely and criminally before.
So, elementary police work, fundamental analysis points only to the UK for the Salisbury attempted assassination of their own paid stooge and his hapless daughter.
They did it to blame Russia. Case closed.
Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 3 2018 17:26 utc | 8
Just as in the case of the Germans, the US was the most beneffited from the false flag op, since that way gained access to Russian nuclear facilities.
This time around this was plotted to justify a false flag chemical attack on Ghouta who could have justified their illegal and unjustifiable stand in Syria, as well, as spreading a thick fog over the presence and capture of their coalition´s SF in the terrain which would be an scandal in case of becoming of public knowledge after the terrorist attacks that have been place so far in European soil since 9/11 2001, an definitive crushing for the low rates of popularity for both, May and Trump, not to mention Macron who just have suffered some several weeks of general strike against his draconian ( to French standards ) labour reforms, and which where nowhere mentioned in the "alt-media" since there was much more important issues to report about, like the Skripal case....
IMNSHO, the main sin of V.V.Putin was not included in the part of his 1st March speech of adress to the nation about state-of-the-art thachtical weapons, but in the first part related to the necessity of betterment of people´s living conditions, by increasing wages and housing access and conditions of habitability for families and young people, grant access of those gifted to all the varied scoop into the Russian educational system so as nobody with will and capacity gets out without the possibility of developing its strenghts, improvement on health care system and elders care system so as life expectancy spands increasingly, favour maternity conditions for working couples, and so on, and so on...
You have that this was broadcasted to the four winds, so as, everybody with a Smartphone or IT connection could test that while in the US and especialy in Europe, the so called "welfare state" is being dismantled at galloping pace, without nothing left to loot from the working masses except the pensions system, and this only at few corners of Europe, here they come, not only the Chinese, trying to get increasing number of people from amongst their millions of citizens out of poverty every year, but now also, as in the times of the USSR, Russia is offering just the contrary to what the Western powers, in their obscene richness, are offering ot their enslavized working masses.
Now, you tell me that the class strugle has finished and has no sense nowadays....Of course, nobody from the upper middle class who were those which in the higuest numbers voted for Trump, in the hope that that way they would achieve a considerable lowing in taxes, is going to tell you about this. You will onkly learn it from your peers, those who use Twitter, even at the risk of being targetted by the same Intelligence Services who perform the flase flags ops to obnubilate you and act as attack dogs of the elites trying to shut up and demonize every time one of your peers shows its nose at their "blogs".....
Posted by: Fatima Manoubia | Apr 3 2018 17:31 utc | 9
"Porton-Down experts unable to verify the source of Novichok". From what I read, this is simple not possible. The chemical was made in a lab more than 20 years ago, so there would have to be a new batch. No samples from the previous lab were ever collected in the West; instead, Western experts either had samples from an industrial facility in Uzbekistan that does not exists anymore or samples they they had made themselves. Thus Porton-Down could check if it was their own product (unless someone made another batch there without telling the colleagues and using different sources of "raw" materials), and provide the history of the substance by citing Mirzayanov.
It is different if we are talking about large stocks military of poison that was either used before or had samples collected by
outsiders like OPCW. But every laboratory batch can be different.
That said, governments that joined UK in expelling Russian diplomats will probably stick to "belief" in the argument about "the only suspect that had all three: motivation, technical ability and characteristic brutality". I expect Boris Johnson 20 years from now claiming that "knowing all the facts, he would do the same thing" and he could even slavishly imitate Tony Blair "I passionately believe that ...".
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 3 2018 17:33 utc | 10
Gary Aitkenhead CEO of DSTL bio
https://www.gov.uk/government/people/gary-aitkenhead
"Gary has spent his career in the development and supply of mission-critical wireless communications solutions to public safety, industrial and transportation sectors.
He has previously held senior global positions at Sepura and at Motorola Solutions, where he had commercial responsibility for sales, services, operations and product management.
As Dstl’s Chief Executive, Gary will lead an organisation of over 3,800 scientists and engineers providing specialist, and in many cases world-leading expertise, across a wide-range of disciplines...."
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 3 2018 17:35 utc | 11
@ b who wrote:
"
Mind the gap, Mrs. May. Mind the credibility gap.
"
When one relies on a series of lies to move the public instead of truthful need, you can end up twisting slowly in the wind, like May is currently doing.....couldn't happen to a nicer puppet.
What a circus! Too bad it is so meaningful to humanities future. And now the Pope has taken away the revenge of Hell for these folks. It is almost like there is no incentive to do good and avoid evil.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 3 2018 17:39 utc | 12
Often wondered what the planned abort scenario was for 9/11 .
If the CIA etal had indeed wired the towers with explosives how would they go about deinstalling said explosives if there
had been a major muck up and the plans for 9/11 were called off or delayed?
"Training exercises" is a good cover.
When Mossad was caught by an alert bystander planting a bomb under a car in Tel Aviv, it was later announced that it had all been a "training exercise gone awry".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8377746.stm
When bomb parts (not yet assembled) mailed to the US embassy in Tunisia were discovered by Fedex workers at Charles de Gaulle
airport the ready explanation was...you guessed it..."training exercise gone awry".
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tempers-flare-paris-airport-fake-bombs-found-070909988.html
You are probably aware that there were training exercises held in New York just before 9/11.
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a090801laguardiaexercise&scale=0
"September 8, 2001: Bioterrorism Exercise Is Held at a New York Airport
Edit event
A training exercise is held at New York’s La Guardia Airport, based around the scenario of a terrorist attack with a biological weapon"
And, you probably recall that active anthrax was being shipped, although "no one was at fault", for years all over the place.
That is, anthrax created by the Pentagon that was "believed to be inactive" was actually live anthrax and being shipped around the world. But no one was at fault.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/pentagon-blames-anthrax-fiasco-on-no-one
Thus, if someone decided to pull the plug on 9/11 and had to remove the explosives from the towers they could have declared
"training exercise has gone awry". The Pentagon could merely declare that they had held an adjunct exercise in the towers and what the biological terror exercise thought was inactive anthrax was actually live and the
towers would need to be evacuated while decontamination took place.
That could have been the abort scenario to 9/11 .
Posted by: librul | Apr 3 2018 17:46 utc | 13
What does this and other reports tell us about the UK?
That it is owned and operated by criminal vermin.
Like the US.
These vermin are psychopaths or at least sociopaths.
They have murdered millions since the end of Cold War v1.
They intend to murder millions more in Cold War v2 (not so cold!) before they are neutralized.
I hope my children survive until those vermin are eradicated.
Posted by: AriusArmenian | Apr 3 2018 17:52 utc | 14
> The Russian government sent fourteen specific questions to the British government and thirteen questions to the OPCW.
Not quite. There are also few questions EXPLICITLY asked to France itself.
And i already mentioned it in a recent post comments.
I believe this is worth being explicitly mentioned too.
PS. i heard OPCW promised answer their part before end of the day
thanks b for staying on top of this... it bears ongoing scrutiny and you are good at that!@
Posted by: james | Apr 3 2018 17:55 utc | 16
@ 15 arioh... thanks for stating that again.. in fact russia has asked britian, france and opcw questions... wonder who says what when?
Posted by: james | Apr 3 2018 17:56 utc | 17
"Porton Down chief executive Gary Aitkenhead said scientists at the lab 'have not verified the precise source, but we provided the scientific information to the government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions that they have come to.'"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/top-russian-diplomat-britain-poisoned-spy-54198504
i.e. The British government's assertions are based exactly on subjective interpretations of supposed motive and method. The repeated "no other plausible explanation" - which the French officials are now parroting - continues to place the onus on Russia to prove the negative. It's a neat trick, as long as the media faithfully sticks to the talking points. Which they will. Soon there will be an attempt to re-focus the topic away from annoying details towards the alleged "pattern of aggression", such as May's statements today that "standing up to Russia" will continue at least through Putin's new term.
Posted by: jayc | Apr 3 2018 18:17 utc | 18
The story just grows more and more embarrassing. I mean. if you want to frame someone, at you get your act together!! no plodders!
And the the eternal Bumbling Boorish turns up, spout liars as never before!
Please FO Britain out to somewhere Titanic sank and do the same. You will not be missed and the air in Europe is cleaner than without Minitrumpistan.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 3 2018 18:22 utc | 19
And the this guy figuring as a foreign minister is an A grade +++ certified liar and cheat.
Moodies says so.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 3 2018 18:28 utc | 20
Saw it was on BBC (Big British Cunts) too, I wonder who will highlight the complicity.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 3 2018 18:30 utc | 21
These idiots will lose face in an epic proportion when if one can prove Russia didn't do it, considering how much fuss they made and how they humiliated Russia by expelling scores of diplomats. And Russia will be able to openly ask for some kind of excuse or reparation of a high order.
Meanwhile, the UK government seems to be glad to bury yet another case of mass gang-rapes of British girls in yet another British town, because, fuck a thousand of their young citizens, when a couple of foreigners get food-poisoning or whatever it's obviously of highest importance...
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Apr 3 2018 18:41 utc | 22
It seems Novichok are the chemicals described in Mirzanyanov's book and are different to those described by Russian/Soviet scientists who actually researched and developed various compounds.
US/UK ensured no discussion or research into any of these compounds took place at OPCW and elsewhere.
An ace tucked up their sleeve for future use.
With the UK now backing down? - or at least its case starting to fall apart - on its novichok made in Russia claims, the ace has been used and nothing to show for it. It makes me think a CW attack in Ghouta with very large number of victims was to be the pretext for an almost instant attack on Syria and the Russian forces there.
I suspect Russian intel operations are as good as their weapons systems so they most likely took out whatever crew of jihadists were to poison the victims. Then came the direct Russian warning to the US and after that the sacking of Tillerson followed a few days later by the sacking of McMaster.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 3 2018 18:50 utc | 23
From the a portion of the Mercouris article, it appears that the High Court Judge was misled by counsel as to the applicability of the Consular Conventions, because they had not been incorporated into British domestic law -- this is false as they had been so incorporated.
Counsel for the Official Solicitor, the agency representing MS. Skripal's interests, is duty bound to inform the Judge about his error immediately after learning of it.
Posted by: chet380 | Apr 3 2018 18:55 utc | 24
To add to my post @23 If the UK novichok narrative was a prep for the main play in Syria then the narrative would only need to hold up for a couple of weeks, when attention would shift to a large CW attack in Ghouta quickly followed by a US attack on Syria.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 3 2018 18:57 utc | 25
https://tomgard.blog/
Very interesting material, albeit in German. It may be that the GB´s amok run against Russia could have to do with British, Israeli and US soldiers or consultants, who were arrested in Ghouta after the Islamists lost.
Posted by: K | Apr 3 2018 19:01 utc | 26
As soon as i read the Telepolis article this morning, i just was stunned.
Despite me being of 6 or 7 years old at the time, i remember the media hype... And while i wasnt able to connect the dots myself, because i obviously wasnt old enough the graps the details or even the story at the time, i find it strange, that NO ONE in german MSM could see the parallels, other then the small, non MSM Telepolis outlet (Which is one of the few german media sources i follow daily).
Anyway, good to see, that this article has become known to B... As i think this is a big part of the puzzle.
Let the play unravel.
A supposition:
Suppose there were no military grade nerve poison, at least originally and whatever such poison that was 'found' had been planted at a later time as required by the story told the public. The refusal to provide samples to Russia or admit qualified people in to see the victims and take stock of their medical conditions is exactly what would cover such a scenario, and the later application of referenced stock would be likely exposed if Russian scientists were to obtain samples.
How to cover one's posterior? How better than invite a close 'friend' to come in and also do 'certified' testing on the samples you give them that confirm by 'independent' scientific authority exactly your shabby, falling apart story. The world has some cop-on that Macron's integrity has been and still is a marketable product at modest price and would go to any length to accommodate a fine fellow PM as is Theresa May in her hour of need; she after all gave a billion Pounds Sterling to DUP to join her to continue her stewardship of the British Parliament, for Macron's assistance (read French establishment under Macron's direction) several multiples of the DUP's haul could be made available at moment's notice - funny how public treasuries work in such emergency.
What a fine kettle of fish the PM and her Parliament has made of that now 'Scuppered Isle' (or was that sceptre'd isle?). Buckingham Palace might consider dismissing the current Parliament and suggest to the subjects not to return most of the incumbents, or else Charles will be king. That ought to keep the hoi polloi in line.
Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Apr 3 2018 19:07 utc | 28
Peter AU 1 @23 - thats my conclusion as well.
RT quotes Murray on the Porton Down statement:
“If you watch the interview, the sentence where he says it would probably need a state to make it is tacked on to the end. If you look closely, not only has the shot changed, the camera and tripod have actually moved. I strongly suspect government handlers who would have been in that room watching him were unhappy with his interview and wanted something which implicated Russia more, so added a bit onto the end.”
Posted by: cdvision | Apr 3 2018 19:12 utc | 29
"...It's Novichok or from that family..." he says later but at the beginning he says 'it is Novichok'. Does he mean the known variants of Novichok or 'similar' agents?
Not to mention what does "We have not identified the precise source..." mean? Precise source of where the agent came from or precise type of 'Novichok or novichok family'? It's not like the interviewer made an effort to find out.
Oh, and it appears that the video skips or is edited at 00:46 seconds but there is no skip in audio.
Posted by: et Al | Apr 3 2018 19:15 utc | 30
And I don't know if it is how they did the video, but the background looks as if it is videoshopped in. Gary has very sharp lines around him. Maybe it is just 'enhanced' but it still looks odd to me.
Vis the 00:46 skip/edit he's saying:
"and that it's, uh" - skip/edit - "military grade agent..". Did he fluff his lines?
Posted by: et Al | Apr 3 2018 19:21 utc | 31
librul @13--
The nanothermite used was applied as paint, so it would be extremely hard to remove. Also, it must be recalled that preparations for 911 occurred during Clinton's presidency, thus begging three questions: Did Clinton know? Did Gore know? Did Bush know? The Saudis were clearly involved as it was a Saudi company that did the "remodeling" work at the Trade Complex.
Killing/Murdering innocents for political goals seems to be a pastime only associated with European nations and their spawn, like the Outlaw US Empire.
Kudos to b for recalling this previous false flag example of a very similar type!!
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 3 2018 19:28 utc | 32
MoA has outstanding detectives! Too bad we're not actually employed so the Truth can be told.
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 3 2018 19:31 utc | 33
>>>> Peter AU 1 | Apr 3, 2018 2:57:15 PM | 25
Too late for East Ghouta CW black op as the final transfer of jihadists has already started - why would Syria or Russia use CW against defeated groups?
1st batch of Jaish al-Islam rebels and their families have left Douma Wafideen crossing in preparation for their transfer to Jarablus
A couple of days ago the jihadists tried to stage an 'incident' involving jihadists with suicide belts blowing themselves up on buses transferring families to Idlib but Syrians and Russians were tipped off perhaps by high-ranking double agents within jihadist groups and forty suicide belts and their wearers were captured, so no atrocity.
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Apr 3 2018 19:36 utc | 34
Aitkenhead uses the term Novichok. Novichock is supposedly a family or group of chemicals each having a specific name or designation code. UK has specifically accused Russia of using agent A-234, yet it seems Porton Down cannot narrow the substance down to a specific chemical compound withing a group.
The original statement from Porton Down was "Novichok or similar chemical", meaning they cannot even say what chemical group the substance analysed belongs to.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 3 2018 19:46 utc | 35
So May now says they have other evidence that it was the Russians wot did it (intelligence, but not to be revealed). It's ridiculous.
There are no new photos of the sufferers. Neither of the cop, who is supposed to have got out of hospital, nor of Yulia, who is said to have come back to consciousness. Not a single sign. Something is seriously wrong with the public explanation. The cop, being apparently in reasonable health, should have been able to give an interview, but no, it hasn't been done.
Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 3 2018 19:57 utc | 36
In the questions Russia has put to OPCW, the last four...
10. Has the OPCW’s Technical Secretariat approved the disclosure of the investigative material by the UK to the EU countries (according to available information, France has become fully involved in the investigation)?
http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/3150201
11. Has France notified the OPCW’s Technical Secretariat of its involvement in the technical assistance as requested by the UK?
12. Has France provided its material on the investigation, if any, to the OPCW’s Technical Secretariat?
13. Can the OPCW’s Technical Secretariat provide the French investigative material, if any, to Russia for perusal? If not, why?
..........
Does Russia suspect the OPCW has subcontracted the Skripal investigation to France?
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 3 2018 20:07 utc | 37
@ K | Apr 3, 2018 3:01:09 PM | 26
With this Tom Gard Blog I advice to be careful. The guy's reputation is far removed from being above doubt. Not only the MSM act for maximum attention these days.
Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 3 2018 20:18 utc | 38
@36 laguerre... lets face it.. they are making shit up! door handle may-boris-my ass..
and - the uk are running rough shod over basic legal procedure on allowing russia access to all of this..
uk - dark age mentality, thanks may and boris the idiot...
Posted by: james | Apr 3 2018 20:20 utc | 39
Who tricked Boris Johnson and May into this? When BND and Kohl did the plutonium stuff they could be sure Russia would play along - and they did though it might have cost Kohl something in negotiations.
What did it cost May to get EU countries and the US along?
And what does it all mean now?
The development came as a former Russian general warned the response to the Salisbury the attack could trigger “the last war in the history of mankind”.Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Evgeny Buzhinsky said the West was “cornering Russia and to corner Russia is a very dangerous thing”.
He added: “If the situation develops in the way it is now, it will end up in a very bad outcome.”
Write a hundred times: It is not possible to start a war against Russia, it is not possible to start a war against Russia and China, it is not possible to start a war against Russia and China and Iran .....
Posted by: somebody | Apr 3 2018 20:21 utc | 40
@37 peter - last question.. it appears there is some concern over the impartiality and objectivity of the opcw.. as we saw in the case of khan shaykhun, "The OPCW-UN Joint Investigative Mechanism,[15][16][17][18] the governments of the United States, United Kingdom, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, France, and Israel, as well as Human Rights Watch have attributed the attack to the forces of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad" in spite of the fact it was the town was held by al nusra!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Shaykhun_chemical_attack
i think russia is right to be skeptical of the opcw's impartiality and objectivity here...
Posted by: james | Apr 3 2018 20:24 utc | 41
The integrity of the Porton Down scientists has thrown a wrench into the Mossad plan. Mossad got away with it in the Litvinenko caper, so rinse and repeat with a new "Russia-only poison".
The non-scientist Brits don't have any answers beyond what the Zionist/US/NATO Deep State told them to say because Mossad did it, probably without UK gov't knowledge at even the highest/secret levels. (Easier to ask forgiveness than permission) The various "locations/methods' being floated would have been salted with chemical "indicators" by Mossad to make the confusion of potential scenarios plausible for the presstitutes and politicios to regurgitate on-cue.
Occam's Razor at work.
Posted by: A P | Apr 3 2018 20:28 utc | 42
As I understand it, Porton Down must have a sample of A-234 in order to be able to identify the agent used in the attack as A-234--a record of the fingerprint to match the recovered fingerprint. However, Porton Down's saying it does not have any samples of A-234; so, if it lacks samples, how can it discover the match?
The there's the further BS about the Skripals not having any close relatives or others able to help.
Lies, Lies, Lies!
Oh, and did you hear what China's Defense Minister, currently visiting Moscow, has said: "The Chinese side came [to Moscow] to let the Americans know about the close ties between the Russian and Chinese armed forces." I really doubt he's lying.
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 3 2018 20:30 utc | 43
Here is what the father of Alexander Litvinenko has to say on this matter:
Walter Litvinenko used to support the theory of Russia’s involvement in the 2006 poisoning of his son, Alexander, in London, but he changed his mind after years of analyzing the inconsistencies of the investigation...They realized that they have screwed up big time [with the Litvinenko poisoning] and decided to change their tactics a bit. Therefore, they do not show [any evidence] now, but keep it all in secret waiting for Russia to react to it. If there was, as they say, the ‘Russian trace’ there, everything would have been clear long time ago
The Skripal scandal would eventually backfire on those who initiated it, Litvinenko said. “It will be very difficult to hide it all. And they will eventually fail. They will be caught, and Theresa May will be very ashamed. And this clown, their Foreign Minister [Boris Johnson] – he will be very ashamed too.”
people like Alexander find themselves in a situation where they effectively become hostages of foreign governments and intelligence agencies. He said it applies to both the rich and powerful who have left Russia after having run-ins with the law, such as the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky, as well as less prominent citizens such as Sergei Skripal.
They are hostages, all of them are hostages of the American authorities, who strive for the world dominance. As long as that’s the case – they will kill the Russians, they’ll kill anybody who’s against it
It’s not beneficial for them if Skripal stays alive. And this girl – she knows nothing. Skripal knows. She simply came to visit her father and got into this,” Litvinenko said. “They’ll let his daughter walk away, probably. But if she knows anything, she won’t get out of it either.
Posted by: jsb | Apr 3 2018 20:32 utc | 44
39 - "Russia doesn't start wars - Russia ends wars"
Posted by: Bart Hansen | Apr 3 2018 21:04 utc | 45
Over at John Delacour's twitter site, he asks a simple question, "A simple question for @MetPoliceUK, @WiltshirePolice, @BorisJohnson/#Fakes_R_us et al.
Where was Sergey #Skripal’s car going at 2:55pm on Sunday 4th April when you assure us he was eating risotto chez Zizzi?
There is a video clip from the Daily Mirror allegedly showing Skripal's car. John has done lots of good work with the CW attacks in Syria. This dog is not letting go of the bone.
#9 Fatima Manoubia excellent post.
#23 Peter AU Syria and perhaps some local politics, Brexit, EU, discrediting Corbyn.
Posted by: Tom | Apr 3 2018 21:18 utc | 46
@Laguerre 36
The cop, being apparently in reasonable health, should have been able to give an interview, but no, it hasn't been done.
PM May had a private meeting with DS Bailey on March 15 in hospital, before he was released. Quite unusual. There's no other reason than collusion, as May herself might say.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 3 2018 21:21 utc | 47
So, what headline does BBC America post to tell its readers that Porton Down can't determine where the alleged poison came from?
"Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'"
For the 1/2 to 3/4 of news consumers who only read the headline, it looks like just another spurious denial by "the Russians."
Posted by: Daniel | Apr 3 2018 21:26 utc | 48
Porton Down, or the Israeli counterpart at Nes Ziyona? Israel has not signed the chemical weapons ban, and is not subject to inspection by the OPCW.
Posted by: lysias | Apr 3 2018 21:29 utc | 49
Regarding impartiality and honesty, they are rare if not unknown qualities in every government agency everywhere (based on my small sampling). Nearly everybody has a price. One must get an informed opinion from a source that couldn't benefit from a wrong decision, and wouldn't suffer from an honest one. That's difficult, but not impossible. In this case where could one find an impartial lab for the test and evaluation? Perhaps in China or India.
Meanwhile my guess is that Porton was given an order to report (1) novichok and (2) Russia, and they came most of the way with novichok, and probably Russia given #10's deduction powers from the indicators provided.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 3 2018 21:33 utc | 50
OT, but since I loves me some irony:
BBC headline :
Florida shooting: Students defy transparent school bags rule
“The rules about the clear rucksacks, which were provided free to students, came into effect on Monday as classes resumed after the spring break. Other security measures announced last month include mandatory new ID badges for students, with plans also in place for airport-style metal detectors.
“But students have argued that the new bags will not prevent future attacks and infringe their privacy.”
Posted by: Daniel | Apr 3 2018 21:36 utc | 51
Mr. Corbin missed an excellent opportunity to score a goal!
Instead, he preferred to join the warmongers on duty, even after asking for care in the investigations.
Like anyone without a spine, he was swept away by general hysteria.
Curtain, Mr. Corbin...
Sad.
Posted by: Permafrost | Apr 3 2018 22:11 utc | 52
good point that Boris is liar. well for that matter, its now the entire British Government that's lying.
Posted by: Toxik | Apr 3 2018 22:13 utc | 53
47;In speaking of israel,nehroo is in deep shite,own party is up in arms,at nehroo attempt a fix with un in attempting the African crisis.
Posted by: dahoit | Apr 3 2018 22:28 utc | 54
Madame May is not walking back on any of this. She has doubled down: Daily Express UK, reporting on Mr. Aitkenhead's interview with SkyNews, has this morsel:
Porton Down experts NOT able to prove Salisbury nerve agent was Russia made
LINK
[.]Mr Aitkenhead added there was no known antidote to novichok, and that none has been administered to either Sergei or Yulia Skripal. He declined to say whether the lab had developed or keeps stocks of novichok, but rejected suggestions it had come from Porton Down.
[.]The latest developments come after retired Russian Lieutenant-General Evgeny Buzhinsky warned that relations between Russia and the West could become "worse" than the Cold War and "end up in a very, very bad outcome"
Mr Buzhinsky told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "A real war, worse than a cold war is a real war, it will be the last war in the history of mankind."A Downing Street spokesman responded: "As the Prime Minister has made clear, the UK would much rather have in Russia a constructive partner ready to play by the rules.
"But this attack in Salisbury was part of a pattern of increasingly aggressive Russian behaviour, as well as a new and dangerous phase in Russian activity within the continent and beyond.
"As the Prime Minister has said, we must face the facts, and the challenge of Russia is one that will endure for years to come."
OPCW said its executive council would meet in the morning in The Hague to discuss the UK’s Government’s claim that Russia was behind the attack.
I have a few questions for Madame May. Recall you stated this nerve agent {Novichok} was 5 to 8x more toxic than VX? Mr. Aitkenhead has stated "there was no known antidote to novichok, and that none has been administered to either Sergei or Yulia Skripal."
The Skripals are alive, Yes!? Daughter Yulia is up, eating, talking. How is that for a miracle?.
I read one report Yulia's social media account was accessed while she was in a coma. Lazarus.
Posted by: likklemore | Apr 3 2018 22:33 utc | 55
@dahoit 52
What Israel is deep in is spelled with two 'i's
Posted by: Ali | Apr 3 2018 22:39 utc | 56
This is what they are trying to hide:
Apart from general movilizations of elders in Spain claiming for pensions of dignity and for maintaining the public pension system which saw several days of demonstrations which conflued with the women´s day demonstrations...
General strike at AmazonSpain:
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/976207765013172230
https://twitter.com/comunistasmijas/status/981254740406390785
But, then, FRA3 AmazonGermany joins the strike in support of AmazonSpain...
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/975769208423354368
Several general strikes in France during the last month of March. The strike of the French railway workers, which will last until June, has the support of students, elders, hospital staff and postal workers. That's how the French streets are today.
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/976785878080245760
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/976786774713421824
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/976856517839347712
https://twitter.com/CgtTuifrance/status/981201000907378689
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/981167309061439488
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/980904992352632832
And at other locations, other events were happening...which left underreported to the people:
Argentina commemorated the Day of Memory, Truth and Justice, where "NUNCA MAS" was a clamor...
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/977979771224297472
New demonstrations and protests in Athens against electronic auctions of foreclosed homes and allowing the participation of foreign capital. #Greece
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/976890170753593344
Meanwhile in Yemen....
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/977954817762123776
Meanwhile in the Russian Federation...
https://twitter.com/pechosboys/status/977580364368699397
Posted by: Fatima Manoubia | Apr 3 2018 22:42 utc | 57
@46 daniel.. that bbc headline ""Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'" tells one all they need to know of what a lying sack of bs the uk has become on all levels, but especially it's public state run media... the bbc tries to be as pathetic as may and boris and succeeds!!
@47 lysias... your comment is worth repeating.. not enough folks know this.. " Israel has not signed the chemical weapons ban, and is not subject to inspection by the OPCW." immediate suspicion ought be cast on israel as a consequence... what a friggin' team player they are hey? i guess that is why the usa/canada and a bunch of other loser nations love them so much!
@53 likklemore.. quote from the article ""As the Prime Minister has made clear, the UK would much rather have in Russia a constructive partner ready to play by the rules." what bullshite! she means like how israel plays by the rules, by not being a member of the opcw and not being subject to inspection... what a gang of lousy thiefs and liars they all are!
Posted by: james | Apr 3 2018 22:45 utc | 58
Christopher Bollyn - the author of 3 books on 9/11 and its preceding and subsequent events - has done the best work I’ve seen on “Solving 9/11.” This video) of a presentation encapsulates his research quite well in an hour.
Posted by: Daniel | Apr 3 2018 22:59 utc | 59
karlof1 @42
"As I understand it, Porton Down must have a sample of A-234 in order to be able to identify the agent used in the attack as A-234--a record of the fingerprint to match the recovered fingerprint. However, Porton Down's saying it does not have any samples of A-234; so, if it lacks samples, how can it discover the match?"
If you read the statement made in court under oath by a Porton Down scientist, the person says words to the effect they found evidence of a nerve agent of 'Novichok type or closely related agent' You can bet your last dollar that the mention of Novichok was coerced by political powers higher up. Whilst it could have been Novichok, it could be one of a multitude of other agents. So the scientist cannot really object (unless he wants to make a career threatening move) to the mention of Novichok. In practise, all PD can do is identify the presence of a class of nerve agents, so they need not have a sample of A-234 (though they might have, of course). The mention of Novichok is a purely political concoction essential to frame Russia (which is what this is all about). The Skirpals could have been posioned by almost any organophosphate, including undiluted weedkiller.
Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 3 2018 23:05 utc | 60
I am contemplating that USuk, and possibly Israel/mossad, may have managed to aquire an old soviet/Uzbeki nerve agent sample...Ukraine is not out of the question either...and so the story developed, knowing that the agent they were using was originally Soviet, and could categorically exclaim from day one, that "the Russians did it"...
An old expirated sample may be dangerous, even still lethal, but also could be degenerated enough to NOT kill the targets...A fresh nerve agent of any of these modern families is extremely lethal, especially used on a single point target...
This is all considered speculation, as real information may never be available to anyone...but it would appear that other states are involved for deniability factors, etc...
regards
OY
PS...OldMicroBiologist commented that a proper lab could determine the correct agent and that subcomponents would determine a fingerprint of the lab it was produced at...Porton Down was unable to identify some things...???
Posted by: oldenyoung | Apr 3 2018 23:09 utc | 61
A minor point, but organophosphate chemicals are generally used as insecticides, they work on the nervous system, and not for killing plants.
Posted by: Duck1 | Apr 3 2018 23:24 utc | 62
Anonymous @58--
In other words, I was correct. The murder of Dr David Kelly related to Blair's War Crimes clearly haunts any honest scientist in UK. I'll go with Russia's FSB's assessment that MI5/6 did the deed.
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 3 2018 23:59 utc | 63
Israel has a long history of doing Uncle Sam's dirty work. David Kimche and other Mossad types were already doing it in Central America in the 1980's. Israeli operatives were at work in the Honduras coup so welcomed by Hillary in 2009.
Posted by: lysias | Apr 4 2018 0:14 utc | 64
Special for the day on the main menu... Chef's suggestion:
"Rizzotto à la Zizzi"... with a touch of mint and a squizzy zest of lemon!
Posted by: kpax | Apr 4 2018 0:30 utc | 65
The Salisbury England poisoning is extremely confounding. If the nerve agent is an organophosphate, there is an antidote; atropine. Atropine auto-injectors in my company’s gas mask kits in Vietnam had all been stolen. They were used by the troops for an injection buzz when nothing else was available. Atropine is regularly used to dilate eyes. This is an antidote that is widely known and available. One of the jobs of Porton Down, eight miles away, is to develop antidotes for military grade nerve agents. Why was no antidote administered in this case?
The incident was sure not designed to standup to close scrutiny. You’d think state actors would know better unless they knew something bigger was coming that would overwhelm the news coverage but was sidelined. Otherwise, it looks like a mob hit that was seized upon to save Prime Minister May from a Brexit catastrophe.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Apr 4 2018 0:34 utc | 66
@Peter AU "An ace tucked up their sleeve for future use."
I think all your thoughts here may be on the right track. The destruction of Syria has not been going well at all. These small chlorine false flags haven't been fooling anyone--what is really needed for the kind of massive strikes that stand any chance of reversing fortunes in Syria are large nerve agent attacks killing lots of beautiful babies. But everyone knows the SAA gave up their stockpiles. But what if a horrible attack could be tied to Russia? Then not only would the world be more likely to believe it was the SAA (since, unlike the US, the Russians never supply the terrorists), but also Russia is just as culpable and evil, actively re-supplying the SAA with chemical weapons, such that Russian troops are now fair game, too. It would finally remove the shield which has worked so infuriatingly well for major Syrian installations.
So, as Peter opines, having a particular, peculiar nerve agent tied to Russia would be very useful. Tying up a loose end for the Clinton/CIA cabal would be nice, but more importantly would be making a record of this being Russia's--and only Russia's--weapon. Hence all the ridiculous tripe that it is simply impossible for ANYONE but Russia to produce it. There has been a great deal of work being put into extremely complex tunnel systems in the terrorist territories, much more complex than needed for simply shuttling defenders from one set of fortifications to the next. Might be pretty useful for US/Brit/French/Israeli advisors, though, especially for stockpiling and ultimately deploying these "known Russian" nerve agents in the most heinous ways (remember the frantic refusal to let civilians leave terrorist areas).
All speculation, of course, but it would sure as hell pass the smell test a lot better than the Tales from the Skript.
Posted by: J Swift | Apr 4 2018 0:39 utc | 67
I wonder what Yulia will have to say to Russian intelligence?
I think USuk thought this was a set piece operation...except the skripals didnt die...too much attention, very untidy
regards
OY
Posted by: oldenyoung | Apr 4 2018 0:53 utc | 68
Just to play devil's advocate, but what if the nerve agent was a binary-weapon i.e. only dangerous when the two parts are combined?
That might account for the difficulty in finding the source since the investigators would need to find both delivery methods.
It might also account for the long time delay between them leaving the house and them falling unconscious on that park bench e.g. the door-knob exposed them to only one of the binary agents, and it wasn't until they were on the park bench that the second exposure happened.
And, finally, it may account for why a "military-grade" nerve agent didn't kill them (and, also, why first-responders were unaffected) e.g. by the time they got to the park-bench the "door-knob" binary agent may have been all but gone, so the "mix" when combined with the 2nd binary agent was not the theoretical best-case 50:50 (and for first-responders would be a harmless 0:50).
Just something that should be considered, though I don't know if it works for-or-against all the whodunit theories.
Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 4 2018 1:30 utc | 69
@ James 56
The Brits are continuing to audition.~
Daily Express has been keeping Mrs. May's feet to the Brexit fire. Hardly a May fan, their update reports the Conservative MP for Salisbury, John Glen told SkyNews he has received intelligence briefings on the attempted assassination in his constituency:
"the police have a firm identity in the nerve agent poisoning...."
Salisbury poisoning suspect 'flew with daughter on SAME flight' before 'fleeing to Moscow' LINK
POLICE have a firm identity for one of the suspects who attempted to assassinate Sergei Skripal and it is believed they flew on the same flight as his daughter Yulia before flying back to Moscow only hours later, a Government Minister has revealed.
[.] It has been reported the suspect’s return flight to Moscow was just five hours after their arrival with Mr Skripal’s daughter Yulia.
The attack took place only a day after she arrived in the UK.
Police believe the nerve agent could have been smeared on the front door of Mr Skripal’s house.[.]
Anyone else notice the gaps? Back 'n Fill
Posted by: likklemore | Apr 4 2018 1:34 utc | 70
Porton down have most likely found a break down product or chemical structure that can can be found after a number of of different chemicals break down or degrade. As such the would not be able to prove that the chemical structure they found was not part of the breakdown of one of the Novichok family.
Going by the wording it seems the scientist at PD may have some integrity as they allow that what they found could be the remnants of any one a number of chemicals including the fabled Novichok.
The CEO of Porton Down although he may have some qualifications in electronics or communications is not a chemist. He is the manager of a company.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 4 2018 3:04 utc | 71
Peter AU/11
Fantastic detective work! Thanks so much for this important piece of the puzzle. One has to wonder how such an unqualified person found his way to supervision of 3800 scientists doing top secret work. It defies belief. Some very strange force is at work here.
Regarding assassination. Professionals never miss. They would have been in the house the previous night and made short and certain work of it. Dad was depressed and killed daughter, then self. Happens every day. Coroner confirms, gone.
Statements made around Europe during the expulsion orgy mentioned a consistent collective security meme -- often precisely copying words and phrases. This becomes grounds for setting Brexit aside and building the Eurokill force to replace ailing/failing NATO.
Putin, as former spy in Germany, well knows the years of provocation over Konigsberg/Kaliningrad that preceded Germany's invasion of Poland. Of course France and Britain were pushing Poland, and the Rothschild branches in both countries had much to say about where events would lead.
Putin must also understand that in many ways Russia brought hell upon itself by betraying the non-aggression pact with Germany (if true, debated but I believe that version). Putin now has effectively the same agreement with his neighbor to the East, China, which has in many ways its own shining new Stalin. China wants Africa and the Arctic (including Siberia) and would betray Russia in a moment to get either. Tying up Russia in Europe with little people like May would serve China's agenda quite well. So I believe they had motive and certainly means to create the Salisbury incident. China will prove to be at least as devious as the Israelis in international relations, which is really saying something. I say this as one who has lived among the Chinese and Jews for years and admires both groups immeasurably. But turning one's back on either, or entering into a bond of trust, can be a fatal error. Putin understands, no doubt. He's quite amazing.
Posted by: mireille | Apr 4 2018 3:35 utc | 72
All this commenting over which country can be trusted when the problem centers around who owns global finance....currently very private but change is coming.
Its all about who controls the money system folks and all the fights between and among nations are proxy covering for that war. I expect the elite would even throw Israel under the bus to save their control over global finance.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 4 2018 4:46 utc | 73
@68 likklemore... the uk politicians are caught in a web of there own lies... they may as well throw out a few more for the bbc to promote the top news, lol... anything that runs counter will be given back page status, kind of kind the announcement @46 daniel drew our attention to ""Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'" which makes it sound like it has nothing to do with uk leadership lies, or the bbc keeping it on the front page for a good week or two... it has all come down to this - "Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'" - which clearly lets everyone know what has come out of the announcement today, lol...
the uk, may and bbc are on the same page - irrelevant and becoming more irrelevant by the day..
Posted by: james | Apr 4 2018 4:53 utc | 74
Yeah, Right @ 67:
I've seen other information on the Internet that says Novichok agents are binary toxins.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent
"... Novichok agents may consist of two separate ‘non-toxic’ components that, when mixed, become the active nerve agent ..."
They're also said to be unstable and to degrade quickly in the presence of water or water vapour so the story about Novichok being on the handle of the front door of the Skripal house can be discounted.
Sergei Skripal kept two guinea pigs and a cat as well, and they were alive when police took them from the house.
Posted by: Jen | Apr 4 2018 4:55 utc | 75
The May:Boris show had to enlarge to more actors, so to bring no clarification, and the Thames stream has to get muddier and muddier. That's the normal development in a smearing campaign. Forget about rational doubts, only the why is of interest (IMHO).
As usual, a clever distance is taken by Bradrakhumar in this piece, enlarging the scope of the game in play:
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2018/04/02/a-trump-putin-summit-is-just-whats-needed/
Just waiting for Alastair Crooke to manifest himself.
Posted by: Charles Michael | Apr 4 2018 4:57 utc | 76
As far as where the Skripals were poisoned, Occam's razor suggests, to me at least, that it occurred at the Salisbury Zizzi restaurant. Interestingly, the Zizzi restaurant chain was recently (Feb, 2015) purchased by Bridgepoint Capital, a private equity firm with headquarters in London. Bridgepoint appears to have some connections to the UK government, for example in 2010 Sir Stuart Rose (knighted in 2008), who sits on the Conservative Bench at the House of Lords, was appointed to an advisory role.
Anyway, just another data point; maybe the Skripal's were poisoned somewhere else.
Posted by: integer | Apr 4 2018 5:44 utc | 77
Posted by: mireille | Apr 3, 2018 11:35:22 PM | 70
I doubt Putin believes a German chauvinist falsification of history. His presentations of Russian history and its lessons are Russian chauvinistic (he would say patriotic) but rational.
Posted by: somebody | Apr 4 2018 6:01 utc | 78
mireille 70
Don't know what History you have been reading but Stalin certainly did not betray the Soviet pact with Nazi Germany .
Six months out from Operation Barbarossa he signaled - BUT to no avail at that point - that he was willing to renegotiate with Germany from a position that would have placed the USSR in a subservient position .
Posted by: ashley albanese | Apr 4 2018 6:11 utc | 79
mireille 70
Whatever you're smoking and drinking sure beats mine. My booze is of a type developed in my back yard and doesn't take me to another world.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 4 2018 6:43 utc | 80
I should add that the precursors for my booze are of a type developed by Coopers.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 4 2018 6:46 utc | 81
mireille 70
Your last paragraph of your post @70 makes me wonder what you are. China has absolutely zero history of assassinations and regime changes in the pursuit of geo-politics, whereas US/UK/Israel have.
Detective work in my post @11? Fuck off. Simply punching in his name in any search engine brings up the link to the UK.gov web page.
Trying to link China to the poisoning... either you are on a good substance or your job description is to move attention from UK gov to elsewhere.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 4 2018 7:21 utc | 82
Peter AU 1 @ 79
Heh. Coopers Brewery has developed some of the best beers in the world IMO. In fact, I'm going to go and buy a six pack or two of their pale ale shortly. Cheers!
Posted by: integer | Apr 4 2018 7:27 utc | 83
I'm on board with Novi-fog.
It reminded me of the famous punchline from Zorba The Greek.
Bullshit, confusion, contradictions, dumbfuckery...
..the full catastrophe!
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 4 2018 8:23 utc | 84
Mireille @ 72:
If you're referring to the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact, the Soviets certainly did not betray it - the Germans did by invading Poland in September 1939 and then rubbed the Soviets' collective nose in the mess they made by invading the Soviet Union in 1941.
Russia and China signed a treaty of friendship and co-operation in 2001. Significantly both nations gave up claims on one another's territory (Article 6).
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China, "Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation Between the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation"
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjdt_665385/2649_665393/t15771.shtml
Posted by: Jen | Apr 4 2018 8:31 utc | 85
> interviewed by the Russian website MKRU
it is not just website, it is quite old and quite famous tabloid.
now it got much of its old fame, but still - in its niche of yellow press - is on of the tops
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskovskij_Komsomolets
if maybe someone remembers journalist murder scandal of 1994
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Kholodov
Back then MK was not as yellow as it is today
I quote Bharma quoting Xinhua "...expected to continue the hostility in the diplomatic sphere and even expand it to other areas that are more painful for both sides in the foreseeable future."
Just as French is building up its new narrative: today the most popular radio French gov radio broadcasted in its 6 o'clock morning news a report about the mutilation of a Kurdish women fighters at the hands of the djihadists employed by Turkey in Afrin. No date was given in the report, although it happened 2 months ago...
http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/020220182
Other reports in the morning session has one thematic: Russia bashing and Russian-Turkish alliance.
France and UK think they'll get away of their footprints on the chemical attacks by rebels in Syria with a new war for Kurdistan? Suddenly the ominous BHL is invited everywhere in French media, right after the visit of the Kurds last week...
Posted by: Mina | Apr 4 2018 8:54 utc | 87
Reportedly, OPCW answered their part of questions.
The answer is not published.
@Jen #85 still USSR, at demand of USA, broken non-aggression pact of Japan and swiftly wiped Japanese armies from China
@Yeah, Right #69
> Just to play devil's advocate, but what if the nerve agent was a binary-weapon
National Health Service of UK claimed days ago, that while three persons were poisoned in Salisbury, none was with military agent.
> it wasn't until they were on the park bench that the second exposure happened.
Occam razor. If they were attacked alone on the bench - then why using complicated (prone to fail) schemes?
An attacker can just splash any plain simple unitary poison onto that very bench with Skripals.
Same result with much more reliability.
BTW, https://thesaker.is/a-curious-incident-part-v/ and http://thesaker.is/a-curious-incident-part-vi/ - Here some plausible potential attack places are outlined. One is just few steps before the said bench.
> by the time they got to the park-bench the "door-knob" binary agent may have been all but gone
1) as far as i understand, the binary agent is not mixed within victim body. It is mixed in some vessel immediately before application to victims. The idea of binary agents is exactly getting "fresh" poison "just in time".
2) if a person has intelligence, experience and toolkit enough to properly produce such a complex bi-component poison, then it would be very strange to make such a stupid blinder as forgetting how long components are active after exposed to air or light or something on the knob.
OT
5 years in the Ghouta jail of the moderate rebels... 4 women and 1 man... according to the very SOHR
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/295020.aspx
Posted by: Mina | Apr 4 2018 10:29 utc | 91
US are getting funny.
Rolling Stone claims US got infiltrated by Russia via the NRA
Bolton seems to have been part of it :-))
Russia claims not to understand the conflict as there is no ideological difference.
Oh the irony. What used to be communism is now the anti-globalist isolationist right.
Same confrontation. Different ideology.
May and Boris Johnson will soon see the light and remain in the EU.
Russia will gloat about the dissolution of Londongrad.
Posted by: somebody | Apr 4 2018 10:37 utc | 92
karlof1 says:
The nanothermite used was applied as paint, so it would be extremely hard to remove
wow, that's quite an affirmation! is this, too, the result of your nimble detective work?
Posted by: john | Apr 4 2018 10:42 utc | 93
>>>>> Arioch | Apr 4, 2018 5:41:43 AM | 90
The idea of binary agents is exactly getting "fresh" poison "just in time".Not really. It's more that binary agents can be mixed immediately before delivery to create an incredibly toxic agent from two merely unpleasant agents. For instance, binary artillery shells contain two relatively harmless chemicals separated by glass. Firing the shell out of the gun breaks the glass and the rotation of the shell caused by the rifling in the barrel of the gun ensures that the chemicals are fully mixed by the time they hit the target.
If you wanted to kill somebody, a lethal dose of fentanyl would be safer and more effective than any organophosphate. Using an organophosphate nerve agent suggests who ever hatched this plot has been watching too many James Bond movies.
It was suggested that Litvinenko self-administered the polonium that probably killed him to discredit Russia and particularly Putin. Could anyone have persuaded Skripal to self-administer an organophosphate to do the same.
Given the evidence so far identified for the shoot down of MH17 there are two possibilities. pro-Russian forces in Ukraine shot down the aircraft by mistake and the dead were just "collateral damage". The alternative is that Ukrainian intentionally shot down MH17 to discredit the pro-Russian forces in Ukraine, Russia and particularly Putin. The trail of images from social media used to 'prove' Russian complicity could have been manufactured by the SBU. A country that was prepared to shoot down a civilian aircraft for political reasons would not shirk at murdering a few more civilians.
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Apr 4 2018 11:05 utc | 94
For what it's worth, I stumbled upon some information on a potential antidote for organo-phosphate nerve agent poisoning. '
It is called Butyrylcholinesterase.
According to Wikipedia it 'provides complete stochiometric protection against the entire spectrum of organo-phosphate nerve agents'.
More info on the stuff on http://proteopedia.org/wiki/index.php/Butyrylcholinesterase
and you can buy the stuff here:
https://www.rndsystems.com/search?common_name=Butyrylcholinesterase/BCHE
In a document from the US DIA entitled 'Biological Effects op Electromagneti Radiation -Radiowaves an Microwaves – Eurasian Communist Coutries' published in 1976 a study is cited where rats are exposed to microwave radiation (10mW/cm2) which resulted in 'decrease in overal activity of Butyrylcholinesterase in blood serum'. (page 11)
The exposure was long term (not specified how long: Hours, days?) and the microwave frequency was also not specified.
In other words, you can protect yourself agaist an organo phosphate nerve agent, and you can decrease that protection by using microwave radiation. Exposure to above mentioned level can of course be accidental or deliberate.
Posted by: Justaskin | Apr 4 2018 11:05 utc | 95
That twat, Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, is getting in his halfpennyworth in the Guardian, calling on the British government to counter Russian 'disinformation'. Doesn't that piece of pondlife realise that it's the British government that's been caught with its pants down about the Skripal incident.
A leading chemical weapons expert has called on the UK government to give more details of why it is sure Moscow was behind the Salisbury attack after the head of the Porton Down defence research laboratory said it had not established the nerve agent that poisoned Sergei and Yulia Skripal was made in Russia.Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, who was a commander of the now disbanded Joint Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear Regiment, said the lack of detail from the British government was allowing Russia to win its “disinformation” campaign about the attack on the former Russian spy and his daughter.
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Apr 4 2018 11:17 utc | 96
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Apr 4, 2018 7:05:20 AM | 94
add - politicians who did not mind engaging Georgian snipers to create martyrs for their "revolution".
Posted by: somebody | Apr 4 2018 11:24 utc | 97
add to 97
Quite a few of the London "Russian" oligarchs are Ukrainian. Ukraine seems to be in a process of "deoligarchization".
Posted by: somebody | Apr 4 2018 11:31 utc | 98
Ghost Ship @ 94:
"... A country that was prepared to shoot down a civilian aircraft for political reasons would not shirk at murdering a few more civilians."
Including perhaps the pilot (Vladislav Voloshin) said to have shot down the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on 17 July 2014 himself.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201803191062694528-voloshin-mh17-suspected-suicide/
Posted by: Jen | Apr 4 2018 11:52 utc | 99
add to 98
The whole "Clinton - the Russians did it" new cold war" campaign could be caused by Ukraine. Though cause and effect are unclear.
Posted by: somebody | Apr 4 2018 11:52 utc | 100
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Porton Down CEO states "we cannot prove the 'novichok' was made in Russia".
Followed by many weasel words.
May's argument seems to be collapsing.
Posted by: DomesticExtremist | Apr 3 2018 16:35 utc | 1