Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 14, 2018

Are 'Novichok' Poisons Real? - May's Claims Fall Apart

The British government claims that 'Novichok' poisons, developed 30 years ago in the Soviet Union, affected a British double agent. But such substances may not exist at all. The British government further says that the Russian government is responsible for the incident and has announced penalties against the country.

A comparable incidents happened in 2001 in the United States. Envelopes with Anthrax spores were sent to various politicians. Some people died. The White House told the FBI to blame al-Qaeda but the Anthrax turned out to be from a U.S. chemical-biological weapon laboratory.  The case is still unsolved.

The 'whistle-blower' Vil Mirzayanov who 'revealed' the 'Novichok' program and its poisons published chemical formulas that should enable any decent laboratory to reproduce them. But neither the existence of the claimed program nor the existence of the alleged substances were ever accepted by the scientific community. The Russian government says it does not know the program nor the alleged poisons.

The highly constructed drama around the alleged poisoning of a British double agent Skripal and his daughter has thus turned into a surreal play. The British government has so far given no evidence that the Skripal's were poisoned at all, or that they were poisoned by someone else. No detailed medical bulletin was published. The British accusations against Russia lets one assume that a suicide attempt has been excluded. Why?

There is no independent evaluation of the alleged poison. The British government claims that its own chemical weapon laboratory at Porton Down, only a few miles from where the incident happened, has identified the poison as one of the 'Novichok' chemicals.

But in 2016 a leading chemist at Porton Down had doubts that such chemicals exist. (Paul McKeigue, Professor of Statistical Genetics and Genetic Epidemiology at Edinburgh University, Piers Robinson, Professor of Politics, Society and Political Journalism at Sheffield University and the former British Ambassador Craig Murray point this out):

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)

Robin Black. (2016) Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents. Royal Society of Chemistry

The Scientific Advisory Board of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) has not recognized Novichoks as chemical weapons because it found scant evidence that they exist at all. The U.S. and the UK are both part of the organization and both agreed with this evaluation:

[The SAB] emphasised that the definition of toxic chemicals in the Convention would cover all potential candidate chemicals that might be utilised as chemical weapons. Regarding new toxic chemicals not listed in the Annex on Chemicals but which may nevertheless pose a risk to the Convention, the SAB makes reference to “Novichoks”. The name “Novichok” is used in a publication of a former Soviet scientist who reported investigating a new class of nerve agents suitable for use as binary chemical weapons. The SAB states that it has insufficient information to comment on the existence or properties of “Novichoks”. (OPCW, 2013)

The former Soviet scientist, Vil Mirzayanov, who 'blew the whistle' and wrote about the 'Novichoks', now lives in a $1 million home in the United States. The AFP news agency just interviewed him about the recent incident:

Mirzayanov, speaking at his home in Princeton, New Jersey, said he is convinced Russia carried it out as a way of intimidating opponents of President Vladimir Putin.

"Only the Russians" developed this class of nerve agents, said the chemist. "They kept it and are still keeping it in secrecy."

The only other possibility, he said, would be that someone used the formulas in his book to make such a weapon.

"Russia did it", says Mirzayanov, "OR SOMEONE WHO READ MY BOOK".

1, 2

The book was published in 2008 and is available as hardcover, paperback or for $8.16 as an electronic file. It includes a number of formulas which, Mirzayanov says, could be used to produce those chemical agents. But neither Porton Down nor the OPCW seem convinced that this is possible. They may believe that Mirzayanov is just full of it.

One customer reviewing Mirzayanov's book remarked:

[Needs] an editor to throttle back his epic "i'm an epic awesome martyr" stuff and stick to the science.

Another reviewer wrote:

State secrets is by far the most long winded and painfully slow novel on chemical weapons written by a disgruntled defected scientist from Russia I have ever read! If you want to hear an employ with delusions of grandeur moan about every person he ever worked with then this is the book for you, otherwise don't waste your sweet time. Seriously! Nothing happens except Vil somethingkov helps make things that kill people for 30 years, gets a (sort of) conscience, defects, and constantly whinges about.....everything.

Vil Mirzayanov promoted his book in a 2009 video. Shortly after he published his book he blogged an explanation why he included formulas in it:

While I was writing my book “State Secrets: An Insider’s Chronicle of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program”, some people from Washington persistently advised me not to include the formulas of the chemical agents of the Novichok series in my book.
I asked why it would be a bad idea to publish this information, since it would be for the safety of all people. Then the governments would work to have those chemical agents and their precursors included into the Control List. They responded, “Terrorists could use them for their criminal actions.” This kind of reasoning is used all the time now to scare people and prevent any discussion. We are already used to ignoring a lot of real problems thanks to that.

Mirzayanov further points out that experienced personal in well equipped laboratories would be able to use his formulas. State actors have such laboratories, like the British Porton Down, but terrorists do not have such capabilities.

Mirzayanov urged to included the substances he described into the OPCW list of controlled material. But the OPCW, as seen above, rejected that. Neither its scientific board nor the head of the Porton Down detection laboratory were convinced that these substances or the Soviet program Mirzayanov described existed at all.

The Soviet chemical weapon laboratory in which Mirzayanov had worked was in Uzbekistan, not in Russia as Theresa May falsely claims. The laboratory was dismantled with the active help of the United States.

Theresa's May claims that the Skripals were poisoned with 'Novichok' agents is highly questionable. Her claim that only Russia could be responsible for the Skripal incident is obviously bollocks.

The existence of the substances as described by Vil Mirzayanov is in serious doubt. But if he is right then any state or company with a decent laboratory and competent personal can produce these substances from the formulas and descriptions he provides in his book. That is at least what Mirzayanov himself says.

But most disturbing about the case are not the false claims Theresa May makes. She is in deep political trouble over the Brexit negotiations and other issues and needs any political diversion that she can get. Blaming Russia for 'something' is en vogue and might help her for a while.

No, the most troubling issue is the behavior of the media who fail to point out that May's claims are bluster and that there is no evidence at all that supports her claims. The only paper that is somewhat skeptical is the Irish Times which finds it highly unlikely that the Russian government is behind the poisoning.

May demanded and got a NATO meeting on the case. But the statement NATO issued afterwards was extremely weak. It only offered support in conducting the British investigation and it asked Russia to respond to the British questions. Neither did it support the claims May made, nor did it take any measures against Russia. A French spokesperson said "We don’t do fantasy politics" and demanded 'definite conclusions' on the case before deciding anything. No support was given to May by the Trump administration (Update: U.S. ambassador to the UN Nick Haley has now jumped to May's aid.)

The story May wants to tell has way too much holes to be sustainable. The involvement of the British double agent Skripal in the fake Steele dossier about Trump is likely the real story behind the incident. No international support is coming for May. The British opposition leader Corbyn was right today when he demanded that she produces evidence for her claims. A few more pushes and her house of cards will surely come down.

Posted by b on March 14, 2018 at 19:17 UTC | Permalink

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Interesting that a Senate Democrat of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Robert Menendez, brings in the case of the murder of Kim Jong Un´s brother, Kim Jong-Nama, since, for the same token, on the arbitrarious asignation of guilt against Russia for having fabricated Novichok in the past decades, the poisonous substance which finished Kim Jong-Un´s brother was the nerve agent VX, as well fabricated by the UK in the past, and probably also today, as was stated by Annie Machon in the last Crosstalk by Peter Lavelle about this case.
Thus, the same requests made to the Russian governement, we assume, could well be directed to Theresa May´s government.

What this pantomime is about, is that those West countries implicated in the Syrian nightmare, seeing their terrorists proxies being definitely defeated and so their goals sent to waste, at the hands of the SAA and their allies, amongst whom they are the RF, do not know already what to invent next to try to paint Russia as the agressor when it is getting increasingly clear, even in the public light, out of the so called "alt-media", that that label fits better with them.
They, simply, are in panicking that Mr. Putin gets elected once more time and the paradigm shift is definitely completed....

For desperation, they even do not bother to appoint people who carry a warrant for abuse of human rights in Europe...Although this increasingly resembles a western titled "The City Without Law"....

Another question would be, why none of the affected by the alleged poisoning have been yet accesed by any relative or official of its country ( as could be the case of Yulia Skripal ) since they did not died after all..... You go to see whether this is real or is simply a new "Manequin Challenge" like those performed by the "White Helmets", a renowned, even at Oscars level, broadcasting enterprise created by another MI6 "ex-spy", James LeMesurier....This increasingly seem to be the next profit niche of London...Theater!...But of the worst kind...

Not to mention that there are some declaration by a female doctor, who arrived at the event location at the first moments, and who was not affected in any way by any poison, on the contrary to the alleged poisoned policeman placed some meters away...

Also, it is said that the Skripals went out of the restaurant where they were eating quite airated, arguing...

Enough data to take months of inquiries even for the very sharp Sherlock Holmes...Even "Murder in the Orient Express" took, well, a whole travel in the orient Express of the lasting of those of past decades, to be solved by Agatha Christie....That Theresa May and the Democrats/Republicans in the USA, have already the case solved speaks volumes of cui bono....and who could be interested in solving the case asap without any evidence and a proper investigation to their benefit...

Posted by: Fatima Manoubia | Mar 14 2018 19:31 utc | 1

Note to spies: if ever becoming a Russian spy and then deciding to switch sides--DO NOT go to London. No UK, period. Mexico or Argentina increasingly look attractive. LOL.

Posted by: SmoothieX12 | Mar 14 2018 19:40 utc | 2

Be interesting to see if any of this info b is reporting, makes it's way into the corporate media. Thanks b...

If it does, I'll be shocked...

Posted by: ben | Mar 14 2018 19:43 utc | 3

Interesting. I hope you're right with your confidence. Although it seems to me Russia bashing is really en vogue and nobody important comes out to call May - and Boris - miserable liars. We are lingering at the border of a mayor war.

Posted by: Pnyx | Mar 14 2018 19:43 utc | 4

It will give her enough leverage to survive this term.

Posted by: jfc | Mar 14 2018 19:43 utc | 5

Great work b!

Where's Jim Jones when you need him to serve up some of his koolaid to the numerous politicos and propagandists pushing the Russiagate Big Lie, for they surely deserve several pitchers full each.

Given the degree of effort Pompeo's used in pushing Russiagate, I can't wait for his first meeting with Lavrov or Putin.

The sooner Corbyn is able to become British PM, the better for all excepting the corrupt.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 14 2018 19:56 utc | 6

In the MEF Territorial Office in Salisbury, England, the Inspector Watson summarizes to Commissioner Golphar the known facts:

"- a man was found unconscious in a park;
- he turns out to be a former Russian spy who worked for Britain in the '90s, arrested but freed by the Russians themselves 8 years ago.
from the analysis it turns out to have been contaminated with a substance created in the former Soviet Union decades ago ... that has hit also other people nearby”…

The Inspector halts to speak for a while, then asks loudly: "Who could have been to do all that?"

“Elementary, my dear Watson", the Commissioner immediately responds with a flash of cunning in his eyes: “It was Russia, of course!”

But immediately afterwards he becomes pensive and among himself says in a low voice:
"... or not?”,
remembering what was written by Arthur Conan Doyle:

"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact”.

In the homeland of Sherlock Holmes, does anyone remember that sentence?

Posted by: Il Discobolo | Mar 14 2018 19:59 utc | 7

In the House of Commons and the UK press, May's ploy sure is working. Now she is a "War Prime Minister" who may be able to hang onto power--and even gain more powers through legislation. Let's not forget that in the US, Bush 2 was failing miserably until 9/11--then his rating zoomed up and America happily went to war behind him, or at least its hapless soldiers did. Even if the UK's far-fetched narrative is shown to be completely inaccurate, I have little faith that the truth will change matters since it will be suppressed by the anti-Russian media and the political class. It's very depressing--although not surprising--that we find ourselves in this state.

I imagine the Tories are chortling right now with little thought that they are bringing a world war closer through their reckless actions.

Posted by: WorldBLee | Mar 14 2018 20:01 utc | 8

Just how deadly is this nunchuck agent?

i) Absolutely deadly - you need total body protection with positive pressure suit and self-contained rebreather.
ii) Just your average toxic industrial chemical - tyvek suit, boots, gloves and gasmask.
iii) Meh - come across worse on a Friday night outside a curry house.
iv) All of the above at the same time.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2018 20:10 utc | 9

Its amazing how easily propaganda works in the west, this is nothing but a psy-operation.
Anyway, there seems to be a one effort to kick Russia out of UNSC by the brittish as a "response".

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2018 20:12 utc | 10

May trying to be Maggie. Haha.

I have never read spy novels, so there are a few things about this incident that I don’t understand.

• If the Skripals were hit with a military grade toxin, why are they not dead?

• If they were being taken out by the FSB, MI6, CIA, or even Mossad, surely they would have done the job properly?

• Even if Skripal contributed dodgy info to Steel dossier, why would that justify silencing him?

• Why would anyone do a hit in a pizza care in mid-afternoon, when the perpetrator would be obvious to staff and patrons? Would not an ex-spy be on the alert for an attack in such a place.

• Surely the British must have CCTV footage of the perpetrator. Why is does not one seem to be interested in who the person is? Why are there no descriptions from staff and patrons?

• If the British have identified the person from CCTV footage, why are they not slamming the Russians with their identity, rather than making vague claims about the source of the toxin.

•If they have not been able to identify the perpetrator, why have they not published photos and tried to identify this person. If the perpetrator is still at large in the UK, are they not a threat to other people? Why are the British not trying to find this person?

There is a different possibility that no one seems to have raised.

Skripal is old and ill. His son died recently. He is stuck in dreary England, separated from his friends and family. He has become depressed. His daughter came to visit because she was concerned about his mental health. He decided to commit suicide and put his daughter’s shame to an end. As an ex-spy, he had a suicide pill. He used it to kill himself and his daughter. He failed to complete the task.

Posted by: Blessed Economist | Mar 14 2018 20:12 utc | 11

A canter through the various deaths on British soil:

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Mar 14 2018 20:13 utc | 12

Corbyn is being savaged in the corporate press for questioning May's proof. There's even a hint of yet another leadership challenge within in Labour. If the Blairites are able to claim Corbyn's scalp based on this, one has to truly marvel at the miracle powers of propaganda.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 14 2018 20:17 utc | 13

The statement of OPCW 2013 means nothing at all. The Scientific Advisory Board "included US, French, German and Russian government representatives and on which Dr Black was the UK representative" (Murray). Information-, propaganda- and proxy war against Russia had begun in 2012 at least. So in the SAB they had a stalemate. Russia couldn't say anything without incriminating itself, the Germans normally know nothing and the representatives of US, French and UK could well have had motives to be quiet about things they knew or had.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 14 2018 20:23 utc | 14

Intersting article from Nafeez Ahmed. Aside from touching on Skripal:

The UK government is manufacturing its nerve agent case for ‘action’ on Russia

Two years ago, the Independent reported on new historical research which found that during the Cold War, the British government “used the general public as unwitting biological and chemical warfare guinea pigs on a much greater scale than previously thought.”


Less well-known, though, is the fact that members of the British armed forces “were experimented on with Sarin, the deadly nerve gas, as late as 1983 at the Government’s defence research centre at Porton Down,” according to Ministry of Defence documents obtained by The Telegraph. Operation Antler, as the police investigation into the experiments was called, found that the nerve agent trials had gone on as late as 1989.

Posted by: Tobin Paz | Mar 14 2018 20:23 utc | 15

thanks b.. this story is a load of bs with nothing substantive to back it up.. and of course the scribes for the empire are only too willing to not ask questions! i look forward to the time when sanity returns to international affairs.. at this point, russia seems like the only stand up player on the scene...

i love the info you found in mirzanjaov.. "Russia did it", says Mirzanjaov, "OR SOMEONE WHO READ MY BOOK". - brilliant!! i guess that pays for the house and all else... you are a good stodge mirzanjaov!

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2018 20:24 utc | 16

Relax people we have a hag in Australia called Julie Bishop who is our Foreign Affairs Minister. She is slightly younger than May but a first class slut nonetheless. She is yapping her guts out in support of the puce ridden blanket aka May. You can find Bishop's phone number on the backside of most public toilet cubicles across our despoiled land.

Posted by: Whorin Piece | Mar 14 2018 20:38 utc | 17

>>>> james | Mar 14, 2018 4:24:02 PM | 16

you are a good stodge mirzanjaov!

Are you proposing cannibalism?

Or did you mean stooge?

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Mar 14 2018 20:45 utc | 18

stooge - yeah... what is stoge? is that a stale cigar or something?

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2018 20:50 utc | 19

we haven't gotten to that point yet ghost ship, lol...

here is cluborlov's comment on this..

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2018 20:51 utc | 20

Canada's Banderite FM Chrystia Freeland. Russia is guilty as charged of course. This came out before TMay even rose to deliver her version:

Statement By Foreign Affairs on Chemical Attack in UK

and Response by the Russian Embassy

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 14 2018 20:52 utc | 21

# b who wrote:
No, the most troubling issue is the behavior of the media who fail to point out that May's claims are bluster and that there is no evidence at all that supports her claims.

We read your blog because those media organizations are controlled by the same elite that have their fist up May's ass.

The City of London was around before the US Fed, as was the British empire. I read recently that London has the most millionaires of any city in the world.

The God of Mammon religion is my name for the global private financial system (BIS, SWIFT, IMF, World Bank, etc) and all the national private Central Banks and the money systems within all Western nations. That "sacred" construct of our social contract is under attack and what you see is their response so far.

WWIII has already started and we are just witnessing the latest battle/scrimmage. When/if there is another Bretton Woods meeting of the geopolitical elite to decide where the financial control will/should be going forward, then we will see if the centuries old cabal of families that have ruled our world will give up that power or reset the human experiment with nukes.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 14 2018 20:54 utc | 22


Worthwhile to add the rush to judgement into the “claims fall apart” mix? As the Russians pointed out at OPCW meeting, there’s a longstanding agreed procedure to investigating claims of chemical weapons use.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 14 2018 21:00 utc | 23

@James - 16

(Following up the other thread) Since I read about the "sanctions" I am quite sure, this isn't about Russia at all. It is about blackmailing the EU. Additional stopping North Stream 2.

Stopping North Stream might well be a zero-sum game for Russia. It can't fail sustaining the world price of gas and this might compensate Russia for disadvantages of asian markets

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 14 2018 21:02 utc | 24

Definitely OT--

Julian Assange has an op/ed published by WaPost about Pompeo.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 14 2018 21:06 utc | 25

Here you go B. nice support article.

Posted by: Taffyboy | Mar 14 2018 21:08 utc | 26

Usually the historical precendent for legal caes of this nature is to tie the Russian to a chair and throw him/her/it in the river and if they sink, they are innocent, and if they float they are guilty. I'm disappointed May has not even done this prerequisite to her allegations. I mean, what a barbarian!

Posted by: jezabeel | Mar 14 2018 21:09 utc | 27

@Posted by: Blessed Economist | Mar 14, 2018 4:12:15 PM | 11

Some good questions there, but better than the CCTV footage would be hearing the MI6 person in charge of supervising every movement by Skripal, since, as claimed by Annie Machon at the same Crosstalk program I pointed out at my previous comment, every double agent has its own agent behind it, as a protection protocol ( and also for securing he is not a triple...I guess )...

Posted by: Fatima Manoubia | Mar 14 2018 21:14 utc | 28

EU is basically telling Theresa May to go and screw herself.

Posted by: telescope | Mar 14 2018 21:15 utc | 29

Anonymous | Mar 14, 2018 4:12:12 PM | 10

I would love to see them try.   IIRC, no one can leave the UN.   They forget that they're not immune from such a fate in the future, should they succeed in setting a precedent.

Posted by: Ian | Mar 14 2018 21:30 utc | 30

Maybe the guy got food-poisoned at an Indian restaurant.

Posted by: Andrea Daley | Mar 14 2018 21:34 utc | 31


Nah, EU is of course as hysterical against Russia as UK is, but what can they do? Why should they do anything is another question.
Its like these people are looking for war all because a russian spy is hurt. Are they insane?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2018 21:41 utc | 32

Floating around the Twittersphere:
The Official Enemy always does *exactly* the wrong thing:

- Saddam Hussein hid WMD even as war loomed
- Gaddafi ordered a massacre certain to bring 'intervention'
- Assad launched a gas attack exactly as inspectors entered Damascus
- And now Putin...

I haven't yet seen the Russian Ambassador yet, but the UN Security Council's special meeting over this had been universally condemning Russia/Putin. Naturally, this was especially full-throated from Trump's UN Embarrasor, Nimrata "Nikki" Randhawa "Haley."

What would be required to have Russia removed from the UNSC?

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 14 2018 22:05 utc | 33

AT the UN, the US provides evidence supporting the UK's claim that 'Putin done it' in the Skirpal case.

By one of those amazing coincidences, the western media has rediscovered the MH17 incident, and the infamous Spanish air traffic controller Carlos. He has been interviewed by Radio Liberty and a group of Romanian investigative journalists. He claims he received $48,000 USD from 'Russian sources' for his part in the incident.

What an amazing story! /sarc

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2018 22:10 utc | 34

221 john gilberts.. thanks.. nice to know the loser freeland is being given a large platform to her anti russia rhetoric under the canuck flag too.. geez, but sometimes i wish canada wasn't so stupid and dishonest catering to the usa and etc, but alas.. as a canuck i am very disappointed that she is anywhere near a position of power.. working with soros has it's merits..

@24 tomgard.. i think blackmailing the eu is a smaller part of it..i could be wrong.. isolating russia seems like the main meal.. russia is viewed as a threat by the usa/uk and probably a few other players that will go unnamed..

@33 daniel question.. i am sure china would go along with it, lol - NOT... in fact - they would be next... too bad the un security council actually represents a few level headed players - the uk/usa not being one of them!

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2018 22:21 utc | 35

Garrie comments and provides video of UNSC session.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 14 2018 22:22 utc | 36

Uae got rex's head and mbs got 23 russian diplomats?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 14 2018 22:36 utc | 37

Seamus Martin conclusion on Russian billionaires apply just as well to Gulfies in London

Posted by: Mina | Mar 14 2018 22:39 utc | 38

Fucking Theresa May should stick to do her job, as in protecting British citizens and ensuring their safety. Like, for instance, in Telford, where more than thousand kids have been gang-raped for decades, and authorities kept shut about it - a case that the usually very loud Me-Too crowd is being suspiciously quiet about as well. But no, it's so much easier just to make shit up and bash Russia like the Brits have been doing since Crimean War.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 14 2018 22:42 utc | 39

UNSC holds urgent meeting over Salisbury attack

At the 39 minutes and 25 seconds mark Russian UNSC member begins his speech

Posted by: ninel | Mar 14 2018 22:56 utc | 40

In case some haven't, Craig Murray's essay b linked to and I relink here is quite the blockbuster, or rather Maybuster. Russia's UNSC rep only needed to announce Craig's conclusion to destroy the credibility of UK, US, France, and any other nation stupid enough to back May's crazy assertions. As Garrie proposes, May certainly rivals Blair for worst UK PM ever.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 14 2018 23:07 utc | 41

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14, 2018 4:10:06 PM | 9

LOL, nice catch!
Facts...? Who needs stinkin facts in a post-truth world?

Posted by: LXV | Mar 14 2018 23:12 utc | 42

Daniel @33:

After looking at this for the second time, it appears there is a possible way.   It appears a precedent was set via UN General Assembly Resolution, UN Res. 1668 & 2758, where support from 2/3 of the membership is needed.   Although the resolutions addressed specifically to the China/Taiwan question, it could be used against Russia.   However, it requires an alternate capital with support from a significant population.

Another obstacle I see is from pro-UN supporters, who wouldn't tolerate Russia, or any other nation, being excluded from the UN.   By allowing any member to leave the UN would be repeating the mistakes from it's predecessor, League of Nations.   Yes, there's been cases where nations stopped it's participation, but the UN didn't consider them gone; just absent.   The UN concept was never meant to be some governing body.   Unfortunately, there's considerable efforts to make it one.

In the end, the possibility of excluding Russia from either the UNSC and or UN is ZERO.

Posted by: Ian | Mar 14 2018 23:33 utc | 43

After 6 years of attacks on Putin the only shocking is that we see weak and meek response of Russians for another provocation. Did they not know for sure that a series of provocations were and are coming?
Will the wait another 6 months to expel British MI6 spies masquerading as diplomats this time bacause of coming Easter and children of those agents of war and death may suffer spoiled holidays.

It is clear now that this timid response is due to Russian oligarchs , Putin supporters, vital interests in the west are being challenged or even threatened.

Did they not know that in medical schools of psychiatry they warn new doctors not to succumb to mental patient's delusions by trying to reason with him or her, trying to explain reality since it only aggravates psychosis and leads to violence.

This Global McCarthysm is nothing but the expression of panic among political puppets of oligarchic ruling elite that their embellishments are no longer effective in fooling and dividing of population into self destructive herds and that they themselves will be disposed of when their no longer effective lies will be replaced by war and violence within societies all over the world.

Posted by: Kalen | Mar 14 2018 23:38 utc | 44

The soviet union boycotted UNSC meetings some time around the korean War- that is how the imperialist forces got to call themselves UN forces, because USSR didn't veto the resolutions in question.
Where the idea came from that Russia could be removed from the SC I have no idea, it is a nonsense reflecting the propaganda overhang that the US and its satellites can do anything that they want. They can't. And their power is declining daily.
This idiocy from the UK is a direct measurement of the actual impotence of the UK government which has nothing left to do but to scare up the elderly (most people under 50 either don't follow the MSM or know them to be lying) the only demographic that will support them in an election. The story is aimed at embarrassing Corbyn, who they hate and fear, by calling up the Blairites to disassociate themselves from Labour.
It has worked: the usual treacherous MPs, the remains of those who pushed for war in Iraq and called for war in Libya and Syria, have come out in support of May and the MI6. This makes it much more likely that they will not be running for Labour again. Which is good news.
The bad news is that so long as b and the handful of bloggers like him continue to shoot down these propaganda balloons when they are still only a few dozen feet in the air, the Political caste and the Ruling Class will attempt to silence them.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 15 2018 0:09 utc | 45

Exclusion of Russia from UN(SC) might be the best what could happen. Learning the hard lessons, finally. The reactions of Russia seem to harden, but still only defensively. Still trying to be the good boy. Still hoping everybody will come "to reason".

From China I hear nearly nothing about these things. Seems the usual cowardice on the Chinese side.

The main mistake of Russia and China is that false belief in the "multipolar world". So Russia+China don't want to take responsibility, but just want to do "their thing". So they only react, defensively, and only defending their own turf. So does everybody from the non-western camp. And thus they are weak.

The "multipolar world" is fundamentally inconsistent with the worldview of US+UK.

Posted by: Oliver K | Mar 15 2018 0:14 utc | 46

@ Oliver K who wrote: "The "multipolar world" is fundamentally inconsistent with the worldview of US+UK."

LOL!!! I don't see China and Russia as weak for their strategy but smart and focusing on the long game. The US+UK et al is collapsing of its own contradictions which is the only way to stand down a bully with nukes.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 15 2018 0:38 utc | 47

Latest news has police establishing cordon around a flatbed truck used to carry cars. Truck was found abandonned for 2 days in a village 20 miles from Salsbury.

MSM suggests flatbed truck used to remove daughter's car from place she parked it. Establishment of cordon and arrival of military chemical agent troops suggest car (and hence the flatbed truck) contanimated with chemical agent.

So possible sequence of events is daugher drives in contaminated car, goes to have lunch with dad and after lunch chemical agent takes effect?

But claimed Russian agent is supposed to be 3 to 5 times more toxic than Sarin. So how to explain long delay between car exposure and park bench where the two were found?

Posted by: Sushi | Mar 15 2018 1:08 utc | 48

The insanity contines as weird and wonderful theories are propounded by self-interested politicians. Anything goes May has even been trying to use Mr Corbyn's insistence that only a thorough open investigation can reveal the truth as a stick to beat him about the bonce with. Needless to say all neolib members of the Oxbridge parachutist club who still hold a Labour seat have been gleefully assisting the enemy (tory greedies) to hop into Mr Corbyn. I doubt whether this will have much effect on Mr Corbyn's huge lead over the dried up old twats of the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Me, my theory is a little off the wall but it is as servicable as any other out there.
I dunno how many have seen that the reports of a chemical weapons lab being discovered in East Gouta, but the photos leave no doubt what the takfiris were up to.
Some of the equipment discovered has been traced to an order placed by Saudi Arabia to amerika which was then forwarded on to Jaysh al-Islam in Gouta.
Maybots have pushed themselves into a cleft stick by saying Russians (well Uzbeks in the old USSR but what's the diff to a racist tory) 'invented the poison, but also that it is easy to synthesize.
So the CIA who now control the original Uzbek facility trained a savant takfiri kid to make the shit equipped him and set him to work, when the shit hit the fan he escaped via an exit point with his sample case and headed off to england to sell his skills. Stopping for pasta and beer just up the road from Porton Downs he bumped into a coupla self-confessed Russkis. That made him really mad cos it was russians what fucked his last laboratory, so he put a coupla drops in their fettucine marinara while batting his eyelashes at Yulia.

That makes more sense than anything May has claimed AND it includes photos along with motive, means and opportunity.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 15 2018 1:38 utc | 50

@49 madeira.. look the same to me... one is spruced up more then the other, but they look like the same person..

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2018 1:41 utc | 51

@50 debs... not a bad theory, lol...

peter shared the info from Sharmine Narwani's twitter page a few days ago... yeah- that will not be covered anytime soon in the msm, but glad to see off guardian giving it coverage..

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2018 1:44 utc | 52

Thanks, James and Ian re: kicking Russia out of the UNSC. I still hold the tiniest bit of optimism for the potential of a UN, and clearly it needs Russia and China to hold any relevance.

Kalen presents better than I have my concern about Putin. In addition to fealty to Oligarchs, he has signed many lucrative deals with Israel and Russia is beholden to the IMF/World Bank. I still hope that he is simply playing out his long-stated goal of developing a “multi-polar world,” but he has been almost entirely reactive rather than proactive to the lethal aggression of the AAZ Empire and the supra-national banking cabal behind it all (as psychohistorian keeps trying to remind us all).

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 15 2018 1:45 utc | 53

@ 20 james

Thank you for the Orlov link. I don't think to go there since he went behind the Patreon wall, and it's sad because I love his writing. So I miss his complete articles that are free. Must do better.

I love the equation he developed in this paragraph (my emphasis):

Given the dearth of evidence, to make sense of this story we are forced to indulge in a bit of conspiracy theory. However, if a conspiracy theory is what it takes to produce the simplest, most elegant and most internally consistent explanation, then that in itself can be considered as circumstantial evidence for the existence of a conspiracy. - False Flags for Newbies

That's a brilliant piece of logic.

I also found interesting what he says about the spy trade - which, knowing nothing, I can't corroborate - that spies exchanged for spies are afterwards never targeted for punishment, because that destroys the entire transactional basis for everyone.

His conclusion ties in with much that we've seen from the US - that to kill your own people, or to use them as expendable pawns, makes it really hard to recruit more in the future. And we live in an age when the truth of this is getting out. The secret world can get away with short-term expedients no longer.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 15 2018 1:48 utc | 54

>>>> Clueless Joe | Mar 14, 2018 6:42:58 PM | 39

Fucking Theresa May should stick to do her job, as in protecting British citizens and ensuring their safety.

It's a bit difficult because Conservative austerity policies exacerbated by Brexit are likely to lead to 200,000 excess deaths between 2010 and 2020, and the pond life who support her are more worried about three people who are only unwell. Her job is to keep the Conservative scum in power and stick it to the lower orders but gently enough that nobody notices. The UK lower orders are like the infamous frog in a saucepan of water being warmed. By the time they realize what the Conservatives are really upto, they all be dead or dying.

The British Medical Journal published a study by researchers from Oxford, Cambridge and UCL, have estimated that 120,000 deaths are directly linked to Conservative austerity measures since 2010. Current estimates suggest that if the trend is to continue, 200,000 excess deaths will occur by 2020. The study states that the critical factor behind these unnecessary deaths was a huge lack of both NHS and care home nurses and that if the government fail to act now, 100 people will die unnecessarily every day.

It looks like HMS Blighty is shipping water, badly, but the captain (Theresa May) won't be going down on the ship.

At least there is one benefit with the Skripal case - the conservative scum masquerading as Labour MPs have outed themselves.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Mar 15 2018 2:15 utc | 55


No way that Germany would go to stop with the North Stream 2. This would imply the end of the Great Coalition. The SPD is massively favorable to the project, within the Merkel CDU the majority supports the project except some dumb atlanticists and the CSU is totally favorable to the project.The Die Linke is ok with the project, the Liberals and the AfD (Nazis) as well. The only party against this is the Greens and they are irrelevant these days.

The thruth is that Britain is pratically isolated in Europe. Not even received support from some of their traditional Scandinavian ''friends'' like Denmark and Norway

Posted by: Nick | Mar 15 2018 2:18 utc | 56

CBC blows. They have been completely fact free on this issue and I just saw Terry Milewski interviewing Bill Fucking Browder. Shameful. Very sad Canuck.

Posted by: spudski | Mar 15 2018 2:22 utc | 57


Senator Sergei Kalashnikov of the Federation Council of the Russian Duma claims that the West has launched an operation to expel Russia from the UN Security Council. I do not know how Kalashnikov assumes Russia's removal would actually happen. Maybe the United States will simply kick the Russian UN diplomats out of New York.

RIA Novosti has the original story in Russian, Fort Russ News has a summary in English.

How can someone make delusional claims like that? I actually did so 3 years ago. (See Facebook)


NATO has chosen Mikhail Khodorkovsky to set up government-in-exile, take over Russia's UN seat and foreign assets.

The NATO plan is now obvious: Mikhail Khodorkovsky will set up puppet government-in-exile and claim to be the legitimate president of Russia. He will then ask Western governments for diplomatic recognition.

This palace coup d'état will take place not in Moscow but at the UN headquarters in New York. US security guards will remove the Russian ambassador and replace him with Khodorkovsky or his stooge.

This same scenario has been already been demonstrated before. In February 2011 the Libyan Chargé d’Affaires Ibrahim Dabbashi – after first resigning – took up the position of the Libyan ambassador and requested an emergency meeting of the Security Council. In less than a week the Security Council passed UNSC Resolution 1970 in effect confiscating all $100 billion dollars worth of Libya's foreign assets.

The first step of the US Security Council in its new configuration will be to ask NATO for military assistance in removing the "pretender Putin" from the Kremlin and "liberating the Russian people from his tyranny." The US and its captive nations have a qualified majority in the Security Council so the vote will pass. (The Chinese ambassador will be prevented from casting a veto.)

A crucial part of the plan is the continuing information war against Russia. The demonization of President Putin. The Western public has already been taught the inevitability of the war against Russia.

Khodorkovsky's usurpation of power will not happen today, not yet. The NATO plan will only be put to motion once the first Russian troops overtly enter Ukrainian territory.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky met Finnish Prime Minister Alexander Stubb at the official summer residence Kultaranta yesterday. The meeting was held on Khodorkovsky's request.

There is no legal procedure to expel a permanent member of the UNSC. The decisions of the UNSC are by definition international law. Nothing can become law if it is vetoed by a permanent member.

The situation becomes different if a permanent member voluntarily abstains from a UNSC meeting,. Then the council can do all kinds of irrational and illegal things. Like declaring war on Korea, as they did in 1950 when the Soviet Union temporarily quit the council in protest.

Some think that the veto mechanism is outdated and should be abolished. But the 5 permanent members happen to be the only five NPT-designated nuclear weapon states. It would be a catastrophic threat to global stability and peace if the UNSC could declare war on a nuclear power.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 15 2018 2:23 utc | 58

A Twitter feed I find worth following:

Crimes of Britain

"Britain murdered human rights lawyers Pat Finucane & Rosemary Nelson in Ireland. Britain plotted to assassinate leaders such as Nasser & Obote. Britain armed & facilitated the terrorists who lynched Gaddafi & murdered him. And now they point their bloody fingers at Russia."

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 15 2018 2:55 utc | 59

@ 58
Article 23 of the UN Charter --
The Security Council shall consist of eleven Members of the United Nations. The Republic of China, France, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America shall be permanent members of the
Security Council. //

Of these permanent members, France, UK and USA still exist. ROC exists only as a fake China government, and was replaced decades ago by Peoples Republic of China (PRC). USSR no longer exists and has been replaced by RF (Russian Federation), which is the largest country in the world but yet not equivalent to USSR.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 3:04 utc | 60

@58 Petri Krohn

What will happen is that the UN will demonstrate its physical, legal and geopolitical inability to expel Russia. Just as May has demonstrated Britain's inability to do anything except bluster and bluff, just as Trump has demonstrated the US's inability to do anything against North Korea except bluster and bluff. And both have backed down at every turn.

Just as all the bluster demonstrates only the weakness at its fearful heart, and nothing else than this, and never more weak than when the words are most strident.

So that's my prediction, and we shall see.

But if, as a slender alternative possibility to nothing happening, if despite its charter the UN pretended to expel Russia (and it would be a pretense, with or without a Pretender), then this would be the end of the UN. The UN would fling itself and shatter against the rock of reality that Russia and China and the multi-polar world are.

The true world of this century is not thinking of declaring itself today. But if pushed tomorrow, then the votes will come in. Russia will leave the UN, and so will many other nations over time, as the free world organizes its new institutions - a giant task, not taken lightly. The Olympics are already on a knife edge, but no one wants to have to build a new one unless there's no choice. But then the need will make it happen in a blink.

There will be two churches, Rome and Constantinople. And Rome is dying from its own spiritual crisis.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 15 2018 3:11 utc | 61

Its a desperate attempt to do a lot in one play. Firstly Orbis is company has Miller director and he is also biz partner Steele. Millers home in Salisbury. Orbis too. The spy has been fake poisoned to create a smokescreen covering heavy UK and specifically May involvement in generation of Steele dossier. US has just started to turn its eyes on Steele. Once that little study gets going the path to Salisbury is a short one...the surrounding areas are military and ex miliatry heavy so plenty of quiet and no boats rolled in a community like that. It is a spy town and quite a deal harder to sniff around for US than almost any other place in UK, its a tight knit place. So with this poisoning May gets to cover her tracks. She also gets to play the Steele thing positively into Trump's brain space. Trump is actually not going to be friends with Putin or go anyway towards working with Russia. Trump is Cyrus and is convinced Davids kingdom included Damascus. Trump needs and uses everything to try and force Putin to capitulate and now he has been tricked into using this poisoned spy in his anti russia drive and the UK has a legit former GRU officer who is the blown fuse preventing US sniffing and creating alibi for Steele and May with respect to dodgy dossier. May can say look Trumpster bro we did have genuine spy. Now he is dead or has brain damage or whatnot but he is real. Trump after using the poisoned spy can't go after Steele because that would unwind the basis of the actions he is about to take against Russia which in great part will be founded upon.

Posted by: Whorin Piece | Mar 15 2018 3:18 utc | 62

“Pro-Syrian government forces shelled Turkish positions in northern Syria on Wednesday in response to a Turkish air strike that killed five of their fighters, a pro-government commander said to Reuters.”

We’re getting very close to that military confrontation between the Syrian Arab Army and NATO member, Turkey. Article Five?

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 15 2018 3:21 utc | 63

@Grieved 61
I don't disagree with you, but let's face the fact that the UN has always been a creature of the US which as we all knows has been, and is, the leader of the free world. /s
So "rogue nations" don't qualify for leadership status, might be the argument. How can a nation promoting insecurity be a permanent member of the security council? (Let's face the fact that the US cynically characterizes other nations in the negative way that the US itself in fact acts.)

PS: We're talking here about permanent membership in the UNSC, not UN membership.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 3:29 utc | 64

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 14, 2018 10:55:12 PM | 59

She-e-it we know englander hits on foreign political figures date back at least as far as the 1918 assassination attempt on Vlad Lenin which had englander pawmarks all over it. Really even further - it was 1823 when Napoleon Bonaparte was poisoned with arsenic while in englander custody on St Helena and over the years numerous 'inconvenient' political leaders from Mahatma Ghandi to Yasser Arafat have had to dodge englander bullets.
In fact since Yasser Arafat was murdered the same way as the greedy Litvenyenko whose shrill demands for money was pissing off Brit Intelligence, President Arafat's dose of polonium may well have been administered by some englander wannabe James Bond - a flabby englander dressed in the lurid shell suit of his favourite football club, no doubt.
To paraphrase shakespeare - "First, we kill all the poms".

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 15 2018 3:29 utc | 65

Seen this?

“No Russia, no world!” - FULL MOVIE: WORLD ORDER 2018 (Blocked on You Tube)

Posted by: ninel | Mar 15 2018 3:39 utc | 66

"If a conspiracy theory is what it takes to produce the simplest, most elegant and most internally consistent explanation, then that in itself can be considered as circumstantial evidence for the existence of a conspiracy."

Here is another set of conjectures:

[1] That Skripal was involved with Glenn Simpson and Christopher Steele, authors of the Golden Showers Dossier, "liars who fabricated claims about Russians which they then promoted to reporters and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)" See John Helmer story here.

[2] This package of lies obtained the endorsement of the US Intelligence community and the political opposition to Trump with both the Democrats and the Intelligence community animated by the fact of democratic elections having resulted in the election of other than the anointed and expected candidate.

[3] The Mueller investigation has descended into farce with the indictment of few entrepreneurs who sought to increase the click through rate on their web advertisements by making provocative statements about almost everybody. This is the same tabloid journalism model that is increasingly found being employed by MSM news outlets.

[4] The potential for the entire Simpson/Steele/Democrats/IC/Trump Resistance/Mueller Investigation/FBI political collusion enterprise to collapse under the weight of its own fact free innuendo led to a need to increase the level of attack on Russia.

[5] The attack on Skripal serves this end, validates May, increases the anti-Russia hysteria, and prepares the public to support further military adventures in the Ukraine or Syria or Iran.

Posted by: Sushi | Mar 15 2018 3:59 utc | 67

For God sake!
Why these Russians and Syrians use gas to kill someone whenever they're winning a war?
What mania they have to use gas on embarrassing occasions! A few days of the elections in Russia, in which Putin is widely favorite, and Goutha is about to be released from the scum backed by the US and friends...
Is it some form of celebration that we, Westerners, can not understand?
Anglo-Zionists are not very creative. Neither do they need to: they believe, with a high degree of certainty, that their people are stupid

Posted by: Permafrost | Mar 15 2018 4:15 utc | 68

The narrative is now fact in the MSM and the sheeple public mind. It will now be used as evidence next time Russia 'commits' a crime.
'The Conversation', a university website where most articles are written by professors of one type or another are fully behind the narrative as they were with MH17 and the bulk of the comments agree Russia dunit. Bloody disgusting at times how most people (80% plus) can be so easily led, like lambs to the slaughter.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 15 2018 4:19 utc | 69

Poor Britain. Its really isolated. Even the Zionists has abandoned them

Posted by: Nick | Mar 15 2018 4:37 utc | 70

DebsIsDead @65
Um...Gregory Rasputin of Czarist Russia fame and the Czarina's confidant and medical advisor for her hemophiliac son, murdered by Brit intell agents in Moscow 1916; working theory was to prevent Czarina from influencing Czar Nicholas to quit military actions in WW1 If Russia quit fighting and withdrew back to its own territory, that would free German troops to return east to pressure the war in the western European sector, especially the English and French armies.

BTW Rasputin's dietary advice benefited the son's condition by removing
some foods that inhibited blood-clotting.

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 15 2018 4:44 utc | 71

Nick 70
May walked out on a thin branch, perhaps with Tillerson's assurances. Trump cut the branch by publicly sacking Tillerson, leaving May dangling. Tillerson's last public statement was along the lines that US fully supported UK, Russia was responsible and there would be retribution.
Trump says US will give full support for the investigation.
If this was part of a buildup for an attack on Syria and the Russian forces there, then as Petri Kohn put in the previous thread - did Trump just cancel WWIII.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 15 2018 5:02 utc | 73

chu che, debsisdead, et al. I recently learned more WW I/Russian Revolution related stuff, and it sounds like y’all might be piqued to reply.

It’s 1917. General Erich Ludendorff had recently taken charge of the German military, and was planning to unleash the submarines to block Great Britain and the US shipping to Europe. Many Russian soldiers were already refusing to fight, the women-led socialists back home had largely shut down war production. The Czar had been “to the front” but came back to make a presence as the Czarina’s response of ordering brutal crackdowns was not helping.

That was when the Revolutionaries secured the Czar’s abduction, and the Duma began establishing a more or less socialist democratic republic.

Vladimir Lenin was in neutral Switzerland, sitting out the war, declaring no one could have predicted the February Revolution.

So, the new to me information took place prior to Russia’s surrender.

1. Within weeks of the February Revolution, Lenin was called to meet with General Erich Ludendorff. The exact purpose of that meeting is unknown to history, but we do know what was happening at the time, and what happened immediately after.

Namely, Russia surrendered to the loser of WW I.

2. A German minister named Zimmerman sent a cable to the President of Mexico, encouraging Mexico to declare war on the US. Mind you, the US and Mexico had been having skirmishes for years already. In the cable, Zimmerman promised that once Germany won WW I, they would come to America, and help the Mexicans “reconquer” Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.

Great Britain had tapped the trans-oceanic cable and so intercepted that cable and leaked it to President Wilson. Or so it’s recorded.

This really pissed off Wilson (or at least provided the ammo to convince Congress to vote for war against Germany).

3. Some of the Bolsheviks who did get into Petrograd/Saint Petersburg, Russia went through the Czar’s paperwork and found documents related to the Sykes-Picot Agreement. That of course was the document dividing up the Ottoman Empire and Middle East/Central Asia between the Empires of Great Britain, France and Russia.

The Bolsheviks leaked these documents to The Guardian (coincidentally, the same paper that Glenn Greenwald would use to publish the Snowden leaks a century later, prior to founding The Intercept, and effectively stopping publishing the Snowden documents).

This really pissed off the Russian people, and especially the army conscripts.

General Ludendorff would go on to write books about - and become a popular speaker blaming - the socialists for Germany losing the war. One who took his arguments to heart had been in the German Infantry, and was something of a war hero, who insisted on returning to the fight even after being gassed and wounded. That guy wrote a book, too. “Mein” something or another. Wonder what ever became of that Adolph guy?

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 15 2018 6:02 utc | 74

Possibly OT:

Does anybody remember that IIRC Palestinian official attacked by mossad in Jordan with a 'substance' and was near death? Jordan's King demanded from Israel the antidote or else all agreements with Israel were off. The antidote arrived, the victim survived. The memory has gone down the hole?

Ask yourselves just what for are those chemical/biological research laboratories in FUKUS and elsewhere for?

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Mar 15 2018 8:18 utc | 75

Vis a vis the Zimmerman cable, it is worth noting that my namesake Eugene V Debs got himself slotted up for a 10 year lag under the Sedition Act or somesuch when he told listeners to his speeches, that even if the Zimmerman cable were on the up and up, a highly doubtful prospect, it was just another example of the rich and powerful manipulating the masses into killing or being killed in order for them to turn a profit.
Debs was a problem for the big industrialists, one that needed to be got rid of given that polls appeared to indicate he had a good chance of becoming amerikan prez on a Socialist Party ticket in the '21 election.
So in typical dem kill all to the left and cut a deal with those on the right, Debs was incarcerated. He languished in the fed pen until Wilson was arseholed in 1921 the rethugs saw an advantage in Debs being outta prison so let him go. Incidentally in the 1921 election, Debs had his name on the ballot and still garnered a few million votes despite being a jailbird & unable to campaign.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 15 2018 8:22 utc | 76

MY GUESS: Britain does not have a sample and they do not even know what the substance is. By looking at the evidence and the symptoms they know it is deadly, undetectable, and so high-tech that only four countries could in theory possess it.

1) The Americans say they did not do it.
2) Theresa May knows Britain did not do it. And even if they did May does not have the need-to-know to know that they did.
3) Israel always gets a free pass in issues like this.
4) ...which leaves only Russia!

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 15 2018 8:50 utc | 77

Do you have a reference/link for Dr Robin Black in 2016?

Posted by: Adam | Mar 15 2018 9:50 utc | 78

I wonder if Skripal saw the crisis as an opportinuty to blackmail MI6 and to demand a second payment for his work on the Steel Dossier.
What could possibly go wrong?....

Another thing, i wonder, if Tillerson promised May USA support and triggered her to go all out and ridicule herself. Just like they played Saakashvili in 2008. Just like the famous scene from Master and Margerette:

- What? he was foreign journalist??? Then we must shout "Guards!", we must do it now before he walked away out of our sight! Come one, three-four, ....

....he was yelling alone. The naughty man, who sat to hsi bench, only opened his mouth bu did not make a sound. Random strangers, passing by the lonely evening street, openly giggled at him.

Posted by: Arioch | Mar 15 2018 10:09 utc | 79

@Petri, #77

....or it could be France! Never underestimate Maria Medici !!! :-D

Posted by: Arioch | Mar 15 2018 10:13 utc | 80

Don Bacon says:

So "rogue nations" don't qualify for leadership status, might be the argument. How can a nation promoting insecurity be a permanent member of the security council

well, international surveys leave no doubt as to who is considered the greatest threat to world peace, so the doublespeak ain't gonna pass muster.

anyhoo, the UNSC is just a bully pulpit for the world's leading weapons exporters...and by the way the Russians have just unveiled their new super powers, well, i mean, there's no such thing as bad publicity, n'est-ce pas?

Posted by: john | Mar 15 2018 11:06 utc | 81

@Adam @78 - Reference link for Black -
Here is a Google books link to his book though the excerpt is not visible in full.

The full excerpt as quote above is sourced from Prof. Mckeigue and Prof. Robinson here.

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2018 12:48 utc | 82

@63 "We’re getting very close to that military confrontation between the Syrian Arab Army and NATO member, Turkey. Article Five? "

No, not if the military confrontation occurs on Syrian soil.

The NATO Charter is quite clear on that point: Article 5 can only be invoked when you are attacked on your own soil.

It can not be invoked when you are engaged in overseas military adventurism.

There is a reason why the USA did not invoke Article 5 during the Vietnam war, or during any of their interventions in Central America.....

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Mar 15 2018 13:00 utc | 83

And a reminder:
„Arafat and Litvinenko: an Interesting Turn to a Mysterious Story“,

Posted by: Andreas Schlüter | Mar 15 2018 13:02 utc | 84

France, Germany, US, UK raised the provocations on thursday even more by in a statement blast Russia and that they violated UK sovreignty!

The warmongering and hatred against Russia will lead to a war with these people in power.

Posted by: Anon | Mar 15 2018 13:23 utc | 85

After reading the commentary at MOA, ZH, Craig Murray's blog and others, the preponderance of evidence however paltry, still points to the Russians as culprits. Supposedly the US, UK, Israel and Russia have the capability to manufacture these agents. But the US, UK and Israel have even less of a motive to knock off Mr Skripal, which leaves the Russians who have form in these matters, as the suspect. Much as the hysterical tone from Ms May is unwarranted, (since the UK has long been a haven for fugitives from justice as long as they can show the money,) the UK's conclusions have a much stronger basis than the contrary.

Along with this, I would like to point out that at this stage, Putin has regrettably shown the dangerous hallmark of a tyrant, as written (as I have read on a blog) by Plato: One whose waking and dream life are the same. His speech about the Russians'nuclear capabilities, was marred by a stream of consciousness line, about how while it would be a tragedy if the world were destroyed in a nuclear exchange, he being a Russian patriot would regard it as an even greater tragedy that Russia was not around to be part of a world that continues. Such talk is what a someone who assumes that his views are unchallenged, would indulge in.

I have news for Putin; the world belongs to God. And if one is an atheist, it belongs to all living things that live in this biosphere.

Posted by: Ivan | Mar 15 2018 13:50 utc | 86

John Helmer's latest:

Test of Theresa May's Rule of Law, An Application For Habeus Corpus For Yulia Skripal

"An application to a British court for a writ of habeus corpus on behalf of Yulia Skripal is the last chance, British and international lawyers believe, to preserve for public accountability the evidence of the poison attack against here and her father, Sergei Skripal..."

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 15 2018 14:16 utc | 87

I find it ironic how our reactionary politicians are indignant about some supposed attack on a man who, when he was active years ago, they would have dismissed as a "commie". Now they're pushing to take us to war with Russia...over what happened to a Red? YCNMIU.

Posted by: Michael McNulty | Mar 15 2018 14:26 utc | 88
Christoph Germann @Ch_Germann now
1) France says it wants firm proof of Russian involvement: "We don’t do fantasy politics"
2) Reuters publishes report
3) Panic in NATOland
4) Reuters updates report, no mention of "fantasy politics" or "definitive conclusions"
5) May calls Macron
6) France blames Russia

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2018 14:27 utc | 89

No wonder our great British Government is trying to censor the internet! Your article is very revealing & informative to the British people who are being continually lied to.

Posted by: julia waller | Mar 15 2018 14:38 utc | 90

In joint statement, world leaders agree Russia behind nerve agent attack on former spy
This is the joint statement of the whirled leaders:

We, the leaders of France, Germany, the United States and the United Kingdom, abhor the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, UK, on 4 March 2018. A British police officer who was also exposed in the attack remains seriously ill, and the lives of many innocent British citizens have been threatened. We express our sympathies to them all, and our admiration for the UK police and emergency services for their courageous response.

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War. It is an assault on UK sovereignty and any such use by a State party is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention and a breach of international law. It threatens the security of us all.

The United Kingdom briefed thoroughly its allies that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attack. We share the UK assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia´s failure to address the legitimate request by the UK government further underlines its responsibility. We call on Russia to address all questions related to the attack in Salisbury. Russia should in particular provide full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).

Our concerns are also heightened against the background of a pattern of earlier irresponsible Russian behaviour. We call on Russia to live up to its responsibilities as a member of the UN Security Council to uphold international peace and security. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 15:17 utc | 91

@ Don Bacon with the link and "whirled leaders" slip of the keyboard

Thanks for both. I have long thought that the UN represents the High Court of Empire rather than a multi-nation environment for cooperation and conflict resolution. I have provided links before to pictures of some Ukrainian puppet kissing the ring of Samantha Powers at the UN.

The world is in WWIII. The death count is still low.

Here is to the demise of the "whirled leaders of the US, UK, France and Germany

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 15 2018 15:29 utc | 92

Russian Embassy, UK @RussianEmbassy

Russian Envoy to the UN #Nebenzya: Russia destroyed all of its chemical weapons arsenals by 2017, a fact attested by @OPCW. No research, development or manufacturing of projects codenamed Novichok has ever been carried out in Russia, all CW programmes were stopped back in 1991-92
Russian Envoy to the UN #Nebenzya: Curious fact. Although Russia stopped all its CW programmes in 1992, the UK & the US received specialists/defectors & documentation on these projects incl. so-called Novichok in mid-1990s, continued researching CW as evidenced by open sources
.@RussiaUN: in 1992 Russia closed all Soviet chemical weapons programmes. Some of the scientists were flown to the West (incl UK) where they continued research. To identify a substance, formula and samples are needed – means UK has capacity to produce suspected nerve agent.


Posted by: b | Mar 15 2018 15:35 utc | 93

Russia is succeeding with its military campaign in the Middle East, while making appropriate use of the media in castigating the west. China is also doing well with its commercial expansion and military improvements, while NATO thrashes around w/o any success. So the propaganda option must be used by "western leaders" to gain some advantage.
Senator McCain, recently: “This is a totally new kind of threat, as we all know. Our adversaries, both state and non-state actors, view the entire information domain as a battlespace, and across it, they are waging a new kind of war against us, a war involving but also extending beyond our military, to include our infrastructure, our businesses, and our people.”
A sick Russian spook in England is part of "our people." Now that's a stretch, but it's all they've got. Russia is correct to call it ridiculous. If Russia continues to take the high road they'll be all right.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 15:36 utc | 94

Craig Murray's excellent essay's been heavily attacked, and he's written a stimulating and educational response that further bolsters the initial essay. Quite interesting the so-called journalists supporting May's propaganda.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 15 2018 15:44 utc | 95

from the Joint Statement:

. . . the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War

Oh dear, in sacred Europe!! How about the West using nerve agents on a grand scale against its enemy Iran in the Middle East?
Iraq chemical attacks against Iran refers to chemical attacks used by the Iraqi armed forces against Iranian combatants and non-combatants. The Iraqi armed forces employed chemical weapons against combatants and non-combatants in border cities and villages and more than 30 attacks against Iranian civilians were reported. There were chemical attacks against some medical centers and hospitals by the Iraqi army.[1] According to a 2002 article in the Star-Ledger, 20,000 Iranian combatants and combat medics were killed on the spot by nerve gas. As of 2002, 5,000 of the 80,000 survivors continue to seek regular medical treatment, while 1,000 are hospital inpatients.[2][3] According to the Geneva Protocol, chemical attacks were banned, but in practice, to prevent an Iranian victory, the West supported the Iraqi army in their use of chemical weapons.[4][5] . . .According to Iraqi documents, assistance in the development of chemical weapons was obtained from firms in many countries, including the United States, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and France. A report stated that Dutch, Australian, Italian, French and both West and East German companies were involved in the export of raw materials to Iraqi chemical weapons factories.[7]

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 15:45 utc | 96

@ 77 Petri Krohn | Mar 15, 2018 4:50:59 AM

You are coding yourself thinking British chemical and biological research laboratories haven't known of such substances for at least a quarter century. It is their reason for existing. Just because some jerk is on public record saying things different, you are going out and buying their deviation from fact? If so, I have a series of bridges that you will be interested in, starting with the London bridge, another in San Fransisco which is a beaut. And for believing anything from either MI-5 or MI-6, what fairytale wouldn't you buy? They are in the business of secrets and cannot be bothered with in the light of day fact, unless that fact is irrelevant. Not a wonder the world is in such state, some can be fooled all the time.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Mar 15 2018 15:48 utc | 97

from the Joint Statement:

. . . the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War

Oh dear, in sacred Europe!! How about the West using nerve agents on a grand scale against its enemy Iran in the Middle East (since the Second World War)? Twenty thousand Iranians were killed on the spot by nerve gas, according to reports, with thousands of people hospitalized. According to Iraqi documents, assistance in the development of chemical weapons was obtained from firms in many countries, including the United States, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and France. A report stated that Dutch, Australian, Italian, French and both West and East German companies were involved in the export of raw materials to Iraqi chemical weapons factories.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 15:51 utc | 98

from the Joint Statement:

. . . it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attack

This is the same sort of "highly likely" language that has worked so well with the false-flag attacks in Syria. It's obviously "highly likely" that there is no actual evidence.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 15 2018 15:55 utc | 99

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