Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 25, 2018

Weekly Review And Open Thread 2018-08

Feb 19 - Internet Marketing - Why Is This Smelly Fish Priceless?

Automated Twitter accounts, or trolls, repeated a tweet about a MoA piece on Muller's indictment of "Russian trolls". Funny but not really important. There is interesting news though related to the original Muller indictment. Mueller accused with little evidence 13 persons involved in the private Russian Internet Research Agency (IRA) of meddling with the U.S. election campaign.

The Russian independent TV Rain, also known as Dozhd, found (Russian, machine translation) that one management person of the IRA was missing in the Mueller indictment. That women, Agata Burdonova, has recently moved with her husband to the United States. She had run the "translator" department of the IRA that created English language social marketing campaigns. She has now applied for a U.S. Social Security number.

According to a follow up:

On June 15, 2017, Dmitry Fyodorov says he received an employment offer from Facebook. On August 8, 2017 Fyodorov marries Burdonova. Employer (presumably, Facebook) sponsors both of their visas —prob. H1B.

On December 7 2017 both moved to Bellevue, Washington. Two month later Mueller indicts the alleged IRA owner and management, but not Burdonova. This smells of a deal made by some U.S. agency to get insight into the IRA. In return, an opportunity to move to the U.S. was offered.

Feb 20 - "Russian bots" - How An Anti-Russian Lobby Creates Fake News

On the farce of the "Hamilton 68" dashboard and how the media fall for it.

Feb 22 - The Rothschild Organ And Octoputin - Projection or Envy?

Feb 23 - Syria - The Two East-Ghouta Campaigns - One Is For Liberation, The Other To Save Terrorists

As Hadi Nasrallah smartly asks: "#SaveGhouta - From what exactly? And save who? ..."

Feb 24 - The White Helmet Singalong

See also: Professor for media studies Mark Miller analyses (vid) the war propaganda against Syria.

Feb 25 - Syria - The UNSC Mandated Ceasefire Will Not Hold

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on February 25, 2018 at 15:07 UTC | Permalink

next page »

I don't know if folks saw this link that commenter Peter Grafström left at the end of the Octoputin Posting/thread, but IMO, it should be required reading for all

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 25 2018 15:48 utc | 1

Since Trump, there have been no terrorist attacks in the US, only ‘native’ ones.

Las Vegas shooting PD report.

Approx. 2206 hours/ Security Officer Campos ended the phone call and hung up the house phone. After hanging up the phone, Security Officer Campos heard what he described as rapid drilling noises. (...) Paddock fired approximately 100 rounds into the Las Vegas Village area. (...)

Approx. 2320 hours/ The Strike Team conducted an explosive breach into room 32-135 and made entry. The Strike Team reported Paddock was down from an apparent self-inflected gunshot wound to the head.

First report shooting noise, 22.06, to the ‘breaching’ of 32-135 = 74 minutes.

Completely unacceptable. Unbelievable. Imagine you are in a Hotel and you hear automatic gunfire coming from 1 - 10 floors above, below you, or next to you. In a place crawling with security, police, armed staff, valiant veterans with guns, etc. If one listens to the taxi video, or the Concert venue multiple vids - the gunfire (which I don’t automatically - sic - accept as real) is so loud it is heard in a closed cab cruising about quite far away, and 400 meters away at the concert. (The sound level may be enhanced, but one can note the ppl reacting to it.) Old ground perhaps.

Extra... most curious. Victims no. 1 to 31 were pronounced dead in situ.

Victims 1-31 were pronounced deceased by the coroner investigator who responded to the Las Vegas Village venue and surrounding areas. The remaining victims were pronounced by the attending physician at the corresponding medical facility. Obfuscatory language.

nos. 1-31 were lying dead, on the ground, and were pronounced officially deceased at 0545 hours by the Clark County Coroner’s Office. Some 7 hours after the shooting an official went round the bodies lying at the venue…and said, this one is dead, this one too, etc. (That is why the same time for all of the 31.) Where were their families, loved ones? Why were these bodies just left in place for so long? Something is very wrong.

no 32. Bailey Schweitzer, aged 20, was pronounced dead presumably by some receiving hospital before the Paddock Suite had been breached. Time of Death: 10-01-2017 at 2307 hours.

Not impossible, but it shows that dead bodies were being hauled before anyone thought of entering/attacking suite 135. Patricia Mestas, another, was pronounced dead at 22.50. Jennifer Parks at 23.00.

I also read the autopsy report on Paddock. Announced time of death: on 2 October at noon, i.e. the next day. Huh?

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 25 2018 16:30 utc | 2

@ Noirette with the questions about the Las Vegas "event"

They just don't have enough Winston Smith's trained up yet to smooth the edges of events like this.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 25 2018 17:24 utc | 3

I frequent a news aggregator called the Raw Story and they have put out an article called What Fresh Hell and it looks at what happened last week (in US) while everyone was watching other shinny stuff. I found it sadly quite informative about the Trojan Horse Trump administration.

What Fresh Hell?: Let’s make Wyatt Earp teach algebra edition

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 25 2018 18:10 utc | 4

Alexander Mercouris has an excellent summation of the dynamics at play in the Afrin theater. Very long, very readable, very enjoyable. It shows how well the Russians and Syria are playing their hand there.

Syria, Turkey, Russia and the Kurds: the struggle for Afrin - Russia tries to broker a diplomatic solution to the Afrin conflict

As always, Russia strives for peace, not conflict. Now the Syrian National Defense Forces are deploying to Afrin to stand the Turks back, escorted by Russian military police as a red line to Turkey. And the Kurds seem about to hand over Manbij to Syrian control. So Erdogan is stopped.

I'm not sure how to read the real strength of the Turkish military in Syria, and I'm not sure Mercouris reads it right in his piece. The Turks beat the Kurds but at high cost. I think the Turks would pay any cost if it seemed necessary to them, but I'm not convinced that Erdogan really wants a piece of Syria, or even to maintain a force of jihadis against Assad. We shall see how it plays, but I suspect he would fairly gladly take this opportunity to declare victory and begin to draw down his Olive Branch.

One hopes these old Ottoman games are ending as Erdogan turns to the future, with the Russians kept happy by a strong and stable border between Syria and Turkey enforced by the governments of both sides.

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 25 2018 18:30 utc | 5

Redacted Tonight just keeps getting better and better. Great rant on Russia-Gate:

SAME People Who Pushed WMD Lie Push Russiagate Lies

Posted by: Tobin Paz | Feb 25 2018 19:39 utc | 6

M K Bhadrakumar is reporting that India is cozying up to China with a new Foreign Secretary abandoning the recent India hate-China strategy. If this new relationship comes to fruition it would be a huge, major loss for the US and its new "Indo-Pacific Strategy" which was the top consideration in the new National Security Strategy released in December. The Indo-Pacific appeared ahead of the Middle East, which has dominated past U.S. administrations’ strategic attention. The NSS affirmed the U.S.leadership role in the Quad group of the United States, Australia, Japan, and India against China.

Mending fences with China gets started
Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale has hit the road running, as it were. There isn’t going to be a time lag following his predecessor’s permanent retirement from the South Block before the much-needed abandonment of the China policies over the past three years got under way. Those policies were characterized by a muscularity without precedents or a sense of ground realities that brought the two countries almost to the brink of war. In retrospect, they proved fanciful, sterile and even counter-productive –except, perhaps, to create a raison d’etre for the India-US defining partnership in the era of “America First”.
. . .Therefore, call China’s BRI [Belt & Road Initiative] projects by any name you may like, but the bottom line is that the economic activity they can generate in India will be a game changer for the country’s development; their spin-off by way of job creation can be potentially transformative. The overall implications for India’s political economy are at once obvious. Succinctly put, China is uniquely placed to accelerate India’s development. The diplomatic and political challenge lies in exploiting the historic opportunity. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 25 2018 20:36 utc | 7

Tobin @ 6

The show is really good, and he gets alot of critical info out there that a lot of folks will here for the first time, because they came when they heard the show was funny...



Posted by: oldenyoung | Feb 25 2018 21:08 utc | 8

Regarding North Korea, first the US made threats of a conventional attack if DPRK didn't buckle to US demands, but that strategy failed. Now the US strategy is to threaten a cyberattck on DPRK.
"Senior officials have made no secret of the fact that the administration is ramping up its intelligence capabilities to focus on the Korean Peninsula, but six sources familiar with US planning described a nearly unprecedented scramble inside the agencies responsible for spying and cyber warfare. In fact, the initial strike against the North Korean regime could be digital rather than physical, according to two former intelligence officials with knowledge of the preparations."
Again DPRK won't surrender. North Korea on Saturday denounced reported U.S. preparations for possible cyberattacks against the communist nation, saying it is ready and willing to respond to “any type of warfare. . . .The United States must discard its silly dream of realizing its ambitions for invasion through cyberattacks on us,” the Rodong Sinmun, the newspaper of the North’s ruling Workers’ Party, said in a commentary.“As we have everything we need, and we are prepared, we can respond to any type of warfare that the U.S. wants,” it added.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 25 2018 21:11 utc | 9

What if the only insight that can be gained from picking Agata Burdonova's brain is that the Russian Internet Research Agency merely copies the strategies of already established US social media marketing companies? Will Burdonova and hubbie Dmitri then be pushed forward and marketed as Rodchenkov-style "whistle-blowers", blowing the lid off the supposed Savushkina Street troll-factory?

Posted by: Jen | Feb 25 2018 21:13 utc | 10

DPRK, a low-tech nation itself, is able to strike back with cyberattacks such as from "APT37 (REAPER)" as reported by FireEye here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 25 2018 21:31 utc | 11

Adam Garrie updates the Korea situation by providing the latest statement made by DPRK is response to Trump's threats and his own choice interpretive words:

"What is also not surprising is that Trump’s statement is the most blunt rhetorical confirmation to-date, that the United States is far more frightened of the prospect of peace in Korea than the prospect of war – as strange as this might sound.

"When the US said that North Korea was an unreasonable state wishing to inflict violence upon its neighbours, they were lying. When the US said that Kim Jong-un is a pathological tyrant hell bent on war, they were lying. Most importantly, when the US said they wanted peace on the Korean peninsula, they were lying."

DPRK seems to have provided the closing words: "If tension on the Korean peninsula escalates into a brink of war due to the U.S. reckless actions, all the catastrophic consequences resulting therefrom will be borne by the United States."

Trump's actions threaten the lives of many millions of people. Peace only threatens the wealth of a few hundred. Obviously when it comes to Outlaw US Empire policy philosophy, the wealth of those few hundred greatly outweighs the priceless lives of millions of people--that is an absolute fact--it is also Grossly Unacceptable and likely illegal under UN Charter--and also US domestic law.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 25 2018 22:55 utc | 12

@5 "I'm not sure how to read the real strength of the Turkish military in Syria, and I'm not sure Mercouris reads it right in his piece..."

I agree with your suspicions.

In recent decades the US has increasingly taken the tack of the fading British empire as it could no longer finance overt/direct control and instead turned to subversion, societal perversion (addiction) and sectarian conflict to realize profit and control.

It would be folly to underestimate the US and the deep state behind it. Plan "C" may on the face of it be failing, but the bigger goal is not. In WW II the (primarily British) deep state agenda was to use German fascism against Russia. Get the two to fight and destroy each other, then pick up the pieces and take the plunder for yourself.

Under the US, the agenda is to use primarily Turkish (also Ukrainian) fascism as the tool to destroy Russia. Muslim fundamentalism, the Muslim Brotherhood are simply the current stand-ins for national socialism - all ideological tools to justify war.

In that larger geopolitical sense, Afrin is the current stand-in for the carving up of Poland. Under Stalin, Russia was aware that Hitler was being 'used' against it, but felt constrained to do a deal(the Ribbentrop pact) in order to buy time. While talking of sovereignty, Russia has agreed a de-facto carving up of part of Syria. Why?? Russia continues to buy time.

Had Hitler moved east one year earlier, Russia may well have suffered total defeat. But Hitler had come to doubt British, French, and US intentions. He suspected a knife in the back, and instead turned south and West to consolidate the European theatre first.

As in WWII Russia has moved forcibly to provide security on it's eastern border - only by means of pipelines - not weapons. It has also provided it's enemy Turkey (who with CIA money trained most of the terrorists attacking Russia) with intelligence to expose the plots of the West against Erdogan. Just like Hitler, Erdogan has become suspicious of the West. But it would be a profound mistake to think that there would be an sense of gratitude. Just as Hitler benefited from Russian oil to wage war in Europe ( and prepare his campaign against Russia), so Erdogan is milking from Russia every advantage it can get. 'Leaders' on a quest to rebuild ancient empires they see as their destiny are unlikely to be swayed by economic or political expediencies - Which brings us back to US policies.

So while Russia buys time, the chessboard gets more and more complicated - and it is by no means sure who benefits most from the extra time.

Posted by: les7 | Feb 25 2018 23:19 utc | 13

The Center for Strategic and International Studies, a major think tank that often guides US policy, has published an opinion on Syria which advocates the building a mini-nation in eastern Syria, with Turkish support. excerpts--

The Syrian war is cascading while the clock ticks on American action
. . .Now, as the Defeat ISIS Coalition shifts to a local governance and civilian-led stabilization approach, overlapping tensions and interests of competitors, adversaries and allies in Syria pose further challenges to U.S. interests in consolidating hard-fought gains by local U.S. partners and U.S. forces.
. ..If the United States is placing its bets on eastern Syria, it must work by, with and through local partners to build economic and political resilience from the periphery and put pressure on the center. This will require credible, representative local governance and security that reflects the complexion of the ethnic makeup the communities, and development projects focused on irrigation and oil refining that reduce the area’s reliance on Syria’s center for economic viability.
. . .The lynchpin in this approach is striking a deal with Turkey to enable resources to flow to eastern Syria from Iraq and northern Syria, and to keep U.S. partners focused on the stabilization tasks at hand. As deeply troubled as an ally Turkey is, local U.S. partners will not be able to viably build the level of resilience and leverage in eastern Syria to affect the political outcomes absent better coalition access and relations with Turkey.. . .here

When times get tough the suggestions become more desperate and more illegal.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 26 2018 0:00 utc | 14

Must congratulate Russia's Olympic Hockey Team on its winning Gold over Germany and thus spoiling the global Imp's attempt to somehow shame Russia whereas its the IOC that shot itself in its empty head.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2018 0:10 utc | 15

@ les7 with the interesting synopsis of geopolitics

The goal continues to be ongoing control over global finance so the elite stay in power. I believe the strategy will change with this "war". I have said before that the alternative to nukes is US bankruptcy with the provision that private finance continues to live on in a more super-national sense. And this is what I think we will see play out someway.

Is humanity ready to deal with eliminating the elite and their "guidance" of mankind through control of finance? I wish it were so but from my history at MoA I can see that many cannot see the existential need for this change.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 26 2018 0:16 utc | 16

A New Witch Hunt? FBI Calls Chinese Students a Threat

From TRNN:

More BS to distract the U$A morons...

Posted by: ben | Feb 26 2018 0:35 utc | 17

psycho @ 16 said:"Is humanity ready to deal with eliminating the elite and their "guidance" of mankind through control of finance? I wish it were so but from my history at MoA I can see that many cannot see the existential need for this change."

IMO, these people you refer to in 16 & 1 posts, are to " deep state" folks. thru their control of global finance, they sway most of the nations of the globe to do their bidding.

Posted by: ben | Feb 26 2018 0:42 utc | 18


IMO There have always been groups within "humanity" that have organized themselves in ways to preclude, minimize or prevent the kind of elitism the West lives with. Problem is, the West has been relentless in eliminating them... and by the structure of their alternative existence they have not had the force to sustain themselves against that attack.

today the intrusiveness of that elite led power seems overwhelming. But it is at precisely such times it is also most vulnerable. the problem is that the consciousness that underlies alternative living always seems a generation out of step with the ability to produce change.

Too soon old, too late smart as the saying goes

Posted by: les7 | Feb 26 2018 1:38 utc | 19

@ les7 with "Too soon old, too late smart as the saying goes"

LOL!! Yep, thanks for that

It is difficult to preclude, minimize or prevent the kind of elitism the West lives with when they kill off all the potential leadership that might make a difference. I was fed all the Meek shall inherit the Earth BS and so far we have control by the puppet bullies for the elite. I think the stuff about the Meek was thought of before Edward Bernays and the TV brainwashing tool came along to tip the scales.

Lets hope the vulnerability of the elite through this period is capitalized upon (pun intended)

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 26 2018 2:21 utc | 20

ben @17:

Internment camps in 3, 2...

Posted by: Ian | Feb 26 2018 4:41 utc | 21

@5 Grieved. Agreed a great read. Here Mercouris displays the parallels between the 2016 campaign for East Aleppo & today’s one in the Ghouta but also their differences, why this one will end the same way but with more catastrophic results for the regime change camp..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 26 2018 5:15 utc | 22


The Turkish side asks these questions:

1) 45% out of 3.5m Syrian refugees currently accommodated in Turkey are from Syria's PKK/YPG/SDF/PYD held areas. Why aren't they allowed to return to their homes?

2) Particularly Afrin, Manbij, Tal Abyad, Raqqa are not Kurdish areas. What are the Kurds doing in those areas? Why can't the Syrian refugees go back to their homes?

3) Why did the PKK/YPG/SDF/PYD/ (The Beatles in short really) get massive amounts of heavy weaponary, inclusive of anti-tank, anti-aircraft weapons, to name but a few, from the USI? Why are they getting more of them even now? To be used against who? Daesh?

4) There are 5000 Daesh militants in Turkish prisons. Up to 3600 were killed during OpEuphrates Shield. Where are the Daesh fighters supposedly detained by the USI and PKK? Why are the trucks and USI choppers transporting Daesh fighters back and forth from a to b? From Syria to Iraq, from Iraq to East Ghouta, from Hasakah to Afrin?

5) Mitch Winney, The Pentagon's official graphics designer has designed all YPG artworks. Inluding flags, patches and everything else. Why are the Turkish social media accounts suspended by Twitter and Facebook and Youtube and why does Google censor them when they try to draw attention to the fact that there is an international network of top end YPG support? If Mccan, devianart, etsy, Interpublic Holding,, Houston, Washington, Jakarta, Spain, UK, Norway, Denmark, Holland, practically every top end advertising agency in the world and every graphics designer, photographer, videographer, journalist gets 'funds' from somewhere but the Turkish voice is suppressed, what do we make of this? What is the reason 'by way of deception thou shalt do war'? Is your war unjust, is that why you refer to trickery?

6) Similarly there is an international anti-Erdogan campaign too. The beautiful YPG girls and dictator Erdogan campaigns take place at the same time. Give me the same opportunity, same funds, same international gang working for me and I will make you worship chickens in 10 years time. For Holly Cluck's sake!

7) No, the NDF is not deploying in Afrin. It's propaganda. No, the NDF is not deploying in Tal Rifat, it's propaganda. Who told you that? But it is a successful one obviously because some commenters here believe that. No the TAF's Op Olive is not slow. TAF doesn't want to move fast, weather conditions are bad, the terrain is tricky, there are more than 10 thousand armed 'civilian' PKK/YGP fighters, there are ATGMs, misiles $100,000 a pop fired like confettis at TAF+FSA units. 23% of Afrin has already been taken by the TAF and FSA. 2050 PKK fighters have been eliminated. Afrin will fall and some of the real residents will return to their homes after the foreign fighters in the city leave the city (in one piece hopefully).

8) Israel is going to invade 40km into the SW of Syrian territory soon. E. Ghouta crisis is 100% linked to that plan. Assad must be kept busy. The USI doesn't let Syrian refugees return to their homes. Just like there are Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon etc. there are also millions of Syrian Refugees who can't return to their homes. That is because of the planned Greater Israel Project? New lands for the new settlers? 40 thousand black Israelis are being forced to leave Israel now. The Syrians cannot return home. 7% of Syrian population was Kurdish but they occupy more than 30% of the Syrian territory now and why is that?

9) Is raining cats and dogs. We are getting wet. But we are talking about the angle of raindrops that hit our faces, the size of the drops, the frequency, the sound of the rain, occasional thunders. Isn't it simply raining and aren't we simply getting wet?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 8:08 utc | 23

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 26, 2018 3:08:42 AM | 23

„Why are the Turkish social media accounts suspended by Twitter and Facebook and Youtube and why does Google censor them when they try to draw attention to the fact that there is an international network of top end YPG support?“
I do not know the reason. If you read a lot in the Internet unfortunately the most barbaric, uncultivated plain-hate-speech contributions seem to come from Turkey. Can it be that too much Turkish taxpayers money there is invested into unsufficiently educated AKP-Trolls? The way these people think and speak cannot be translated to the real world. Scum. And the fact that direct and indirect censorship in Turkey is incredibly strong does not gain further sympathies.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 26 2018 8:39 utc | 24

Analysis: Erdogan drops his mask after Iran's move in Syria

Erdogan is antagonizing Greece, fighting the Kurds and pro-Assad groups in Syria. His dreams of grandeur may spark a major conflagration.

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 26 2018 9:43 utc | 25

Dear Hausmeister | Feb 26, 2018 3:39:45 AM | 24

Erdogan has paid Turkey's IMF debt off to the last penny and ever since there has been an increasing amount of international black propaganda against him which shows why there is a conspiracy targeting him. Fancy him becoming a role model for other countries? I wonder if saying that makes me an Erdogan apologist?

Erdogan's trolls are indeed over the top. It's just that they think only the nonbelievers can tackle the infidels. It's a common saying to show that the aggressors can only be defeated by giving them a bit of their own medicine.

There is a small but important detail though, so far there have been multiple times as many trolls attacking Turkey and Erdogan. You have to take that into account to be objective. If you are not happy with the AKP trolls I wonder how would you feel if you began to reap what you sowed if the AKP trolls tried to match the number of trolls attacking their guy and country!

Now, you are unhappy with AKP trolls? The solution is easy and prompt. Somebody claps his hands and no more trolling.

But, the trolls in your turf vastly outnumber Erdogan's kids here. And the trolls in your turf are also backed by giant funds, thousands of politicians and journalists who are lying through their teeth. They can also be stopped at the clap of hands. For example, Michael Rubin is a neocon troll. I dare you to stop him.

Wow, I'm impressed with the soundness of my judgement.
Come to think of it, I wish I had studied law, a very fair and honest judge would've come out of me.


Dear redrooster | Feb 26, 2018 4:43:34 AM | 25

Erdogan is not antagonising the Greeks. It's vice versa. The indebted Greeks get the orders from the USI and Germans, the creditors of the Greeks (the Germans are also the guys single-handedly organizing the Armenian Genocide propaganda worldwide). Of course your MSM shall belie me.

The USI+EUI sound like desperate housewives, Erdogan seems to have spoilt their dreams. The guy is in real trouble I tell you. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 10:12 utc | 26

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 26, 2018 5:12:45 AM | 26
Let me try to think positive. Convince Mr. Erdogan to release all ca. 150 jailed journalists unconditionally and then we continue the debate against censorship in general and in particular places. Until then any such debate is nonsense.
Of course you are right in respect to trolls in the West that are paid by „independent“ think tanks, NGOs etc. So if Erdogan uses taxpayers money to pay for services for himself and for his party this is more democratic or transparent?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 26 2018 10:38 utc | 27

Dear Hausmeister | Feb 26, 2018 5:38:05 AM | 27

The US+EU = Death+Lies+Deception+Theft+Madness and misusing of taxpayers' money on behalf of the Ro-Ro Brothers. Careful not to go mad yourself. You demand 'unconditional' release of 'journalists'. You want full body massage too while their papers are being prepared? There are neocons, and an American priest, and 'journalists' in Turkish jails. One German 'journalist' was released and taken back home with a 'private jet'. Of course the Turks got some concessions from the Germans. Tell the German citizens about it and good luck! We call those guys naughty little james bonds here. The Czechs want 2 of their citizens back who were caught fighting for YPG in exchange for Salih Muslim. That's today's gossip. In short, your demand has been overruled and we can only talk about conditional release of your 'journalists'.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 12:45 utc | 28

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 26, 2018 7:45:41 AM
Misunderstanding. - I meant the fact that Turkish tax payers money is spent to pay Internet trolls who make propaganda for the AKP and for Erdogan. And I thought of the => Turkish journalists that are in jail for having done what a journalist should do: to report facts. The claim of Erdogan that anybody who is not for him is an enemy of Turkey is BS anyway. So clean your house and come back then for talking about censorship. This mini-discussion is not confused. It is outright nonsense. Keep in mind: the majority of the Turkish society in this very moment dislikes the present status.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 26 2018 13:35 utc | 29

"And I thought of the => Turkish journalists that are in jail for having done what a journalist should do: to report facts."

Name them. Obviously you are struggling to understand what's really happening in Turkey. Name them please. Mehmet Baransu? He can work for The Prison Daily or Maximum Security Journal for the rest of his life. Reporting sheer lies as facts cost so many lives here. He won't see the daylight until his last breath. Altan brothers? Ilicak? I think they'll rot in prison. And that has nothing to do with Erdogan! Name them one by one and we'll debate.

While your thinking how about US+EU extraditing the fugitive 'journalists'?

Tuncay Opcin: 'They will bust (him) at dusk and hang (him) at dawn' This was his tweet July 14, a day before the coup. Coup started at 21:00. Approx time for 'dusk' in summers here.
Emre Uslu: 'Those who want to pay for my ticket please get me one for anytime between July 22-August'
Osman Özsoy 'I wish I was a colonel' On one of the Gulenists' TV channels.

And so on.

Hausmeister, I think some US+EU guys should be taken to La Hague for trials. It'll be good for the humanity.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 14:32 utc | 30

@ Confused Pundit about journalists

Here in the US both political parties and the press are all controlled by the elite. I would like to see some of them at the "La Hague" as you write.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 26 2018 15:09 utc | 31

One of the things I admire most in Russians, and also like, is that they seem to grow before difficulties and with everything against.....

Congratulations to the hockey "red machine" team and the artistic ice-skaters, they are simply the best on the ice!
Let´s admit it!

Posted by: Fatima Manoubia | Feb 26 2018 15:31 utc | 32

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 26, 2018 9:32:52 AM | 30
Yes, La Hague would be optimal. But for all: the Gülenists plus the Erdogam regime people. Of course I would vote for extraditing Gülen to La Hague. And see: I did not say journalism in the west is clean and a good example for anybody. But you do not go to jail for insulting people of power and this is what happens in Turkey. How many lies do the present conformist guys sell each day? Do you want to fool us? And do me a favour and stop to mention polls - from a country where public dissent is punishable. Friends told me they just stopped to believe anything that the Erdogan media tell and refrain from discussing anything connected with politics in the public.I polled they would just say: yes, yes...

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 26 2018 15:47 utc | 33

Grieved, yes, Mercouris is consistently good. His effort at ‘plainess’ in his writing is really welcome.

I'm not sure how to read the real strength of the Turkish military in Syria..

I haven’t a clue either, but for sure:

a) Turkey is rife with more divisions, serious schisms and nasty ambiguities than Turkey / Erdogan lets on. To what degree that impacts the military (logistics, smooth moves, support staff, popular adherence, reaction to politicos, etc.) again Idk but if any it won’t be positive.

b) The purges in the military after the ‘coup’ July 2016 appear to be so consequent that one guesses they have had detrimental results. Higher level milit. personnel in a country like Turkey is not easy to replace imho. Plus a very organised hierachical structure that has some pins knocked out here and there (don’t forget the lower ranks who are commanded may hate because they lost some mates, or favored brass, the ‘esprit de corps’), like in a tower of Jenga bricks, tends to collapse partially, or suffer damage here and there.

"Turkey's purge cuts military by a third: Council of Europe."

Reuters Dec 2016

wiki lame overview on purges.–present_purges_in_Turkey

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 26 2018 17:07 utc | 34

@22 Lozion

Yes, good piece by Mercouris. I enjoy his lawyer's understanding of legal documents, as in this UNSC resolution.

He makes it clear that the resolution only calls for negotiations for a ceasefire, not a ceasefire itself. Also, that while Syria is named as one of the parties, no other party is named. Therefore, there's no one named to negotiate with. Furthermore, Russia noted this and on that basis insisted on the amendment that took out any starting date. Therefore, the resolution calls for negotiations without saying who with, and provides no starting date for when these negotiations take place. Therefore, it's simply empty theater.

Mercouris points out that Russia has vetoed 11 UNSC resolutions regarding Syria. This time it was not necessary to veto, because the document is meaningless, changes nothing on the ground, and is only good for propaganda.

And the US let this happen, presumably because it might have lost the vote of the Council if it had tried to put a starting date in the resolution. The US might have lost without Russia's even having to veto.

So the whole episode demonstrates the loss of power of the west since Aleppo.

Good read. Link again: East Ghouta: the last great battle of the Syrian war?

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 26 2018 17:19 utc | 35


Few countries have managed to kick the US out once they are in. Iran and Russian Federation are two.
With Iran, it seems religion gave them the drive and unity nessasary to get rid of the US and keep them out. With Russia, It was a small group of people with a strong sense of loyalty to their country, rather than religion or any ideology.
Both countries were held only for a short period by the US. How long since Turkey has been an independent country? WWI, WWII?
In watching Erdogan, I have often thought it would take someone like Erdogan to kick the US out of Turkey. But What is driving Erdogan and those who support him?
Hausmeister mentioned the twitter comments coming from pro Erdogan Turkey. I was watching several Turkish twitter accounts some time ago a noticed the same.
So what is driving force behind the Turks to break away from the US? I think part religion, part a nationalism that goes back to pre WWI and the Ottoman days.
Erdogan poked his nose into Crimea a few times, Greece, Syria, Iraq - all Ottoman territory.
What is driving the Turks to break free of the US, is I think more akin to Germany of the 1930s breaking free of the suffocating reparations than Iran or Russia breaking free of the US.
It is perhaps some of this form of Turkish nationalism coming through in your comments that made me think you were some sort of paid social media watcher.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 26 2018 17:32 utc | 36

@36 peter quote "It is perhaps some of this form of Turkish nationalism coming through in your comments that made me think you were some sort of paid social media watcher." clearly he's an ambiguous shadowy character no matter how you slice it..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2018 17:59 utc | 37

@ james | Feb 26, 2018 12:59:42 PM | 37
This was my first thought some weeks ago. Today I would not think like this. The country is living under a dictatorial regime, and this in the status of emergency. The regime knew at 16 o'clock on that day that a coup was about to happen.They let it run (a high ranked officer revealed that at court!). So whatever real the trial for the coup was the regime exploited this chance. Erdogans first words were: Thanks to god this happened (now I can clean this up). It enhances on purpose this mindless nationalism with the narrative it is a second war of independence. Any public (!) dissense is punished. No comparable country pays that amount of money to influence social media. In the West the same thing happens, but indirect, not recognizeable for 8 to 5 working people. But in Turkey it is obvious. The trouble is: like in fascism it is not just some secret police like the Gestapo. A certain percentage of the population, ca. 20%, actively supports the regime in daily life, denounces differing opinions, especially now in the intentionally brought up war. Like: you sit naked in your living room. With a spy glass one may detect that. So own feelings of morality and safety are endangered and of course one hase the right then to move over and hit the shit out of you. This is what happens now. Afrin is a part of Syria and Turkey simply has no say. Whatever your opinion of the YPG may be, these people are not stupid and doing attacks on Turkish soil from there would be idiotic. So this is plain propaganda. To say it loud is enough in Turkey. Look at the ridiculous excuse when I mentioned the jailed journalists. - The tragic is that Erdogan can only move forwards. To stop is impossible, too many heavy crimes, too big amounts of money stolen. Similar to Hitler: after the so called Röhm Putsch he lost any chance to retreat. Or like a Ponzi game. No problem as long as you can expand it. But in the moment it stops to expand... the country has lost at least 20 years. But it can start to recover only when he and his system is gone. The amount of self-illusions is incredible as the basement, the lie about the ethnic homogenous „Turkish nation“, is rooted too deep there. That is the key of this nationalism.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 26 2018 18:35 utc | 38

James, in many of ConfusedPundit's first comments, he commented as an observer, commenting on what many Turks were thinking, saying they were not necessarily his views. I am starting to think those comments were his own strongly held views, hence the ambiguity.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 26 2018 18:37 utc | 39

Erdogan's words apparently - “In a unitary system (such as Turkey’s) a presidential system can work perfectly,” ... “There are already examples in the world and in history. You can see it when you look at Hitler’s Germany,”

Turkish nationalism in Ottoman form rather than Nazi?

Hausmeister 38 Your comment seems to hit the mark.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 26 2018 18:56 utc | 40

I posted this in the wrong thread earlier so will repost here where it was intended.

In looking at Erdogan's nationalism compared to 1930's Germany, without a sovereign, independent, cutting edge military tech and manufacturing, Erdogan is an ocean going tadpole trying to swim with the sharks. Pre WWII Germany was always up at the leading edge of military tech and manufacturing, though even that was not enough to realize Hitlers aspirations..
At the moment, because Erdogan is a headache for the hegemon, it is only the Russian shark keeping him alive.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 26 2018 20:04 utc | 41

Noirette | Feb 26, 2018 12:07:44 PM | 34

The TAF's emblem has 209 embroidered on it. That's B.C. 209 for you, founding date. Chances are that they will recover.

Dear psychohistorian | Feb 26, 2018 10:09:31 AM | 31

The clergy? Bush says crusade, muslims talk about jihad, what's our Jewish friends' version, both?

Peter AU 1 | Feb 26, 2018 12:32:31 PM | 36

They want to break up because the coup attempt was utterly scary. The Gulenists did kill a lot of people before the coup but the TAF had never ever fired upon Turkish citizens in his history. The Gulenists are merciless, one of the lowliest beasts of all. Who killed the Russian ambassador n cold blood? And why do the Russians say it was the Gulenists?

Turks think there are 2 US versions 1) USE the present govt 2) USI. Both have regional policies which make Turks unhappy. Gulen has presence in 172 countries. Even the TR State isn't running so many missions around the globe. Wow, what a collosal and harmless global network! Goodness gracious. 172 countries!

The US entities were helping the puschists, Izmir OSI, Adana consulate, Incirlik base all were very active during the night. The US media was lying to their people. Stratfor was pulling lies out of their behinds. I saw a lot of things with my own eyes. I don't care what Erdogan or Americans say about the coup. It's my personal observation. I've been with the Gulenists for many years. If an American knows them better than me than it's because they have spent more time with them, LOL! The Gulenist F16s were refuelled via Incirlik tanker planes. Why did the families of US servicemen in Incirlik left the base in April, 3 months before the coup attempt? What reason do they have to this date? Because Erdogan was planning a false flag! So you didn't warn the Turkish people? Your allies? Anyway, the US has no credibility in Turkey. Full stop.

Gulen (Universal Imam) currently resides in Golden Generation Worship & Retreat Center, Pennsylvania. Henri Barkey (an arrest warrant has been issued for him) dropped a minature Liberty Bell in his hotel room before he and his friends left the country in haste after they realised the coup was about to fail. What was all that about, a ritual or something? What's that Philadelphia bell thing?

When the false flag argument falls through, then the CIA guys switch to the 'controlled coup' story. Well, I told you, the Gulenists were threatening Erdogan everyday, we all knew it was coming anyway. What's wrong with being prepared? Then comes the 'you should've stopped it' defense line. How, nobody knew who the other Gulenists were and how far their sleeping cells streched. It's an intelligence network for Sherlock Holmes' sake!

Perhaps Erdogan will make a trade off with America to secure his next term? Maybe he'll get toppled soon? Maybe there will be a violent divorce this summer? That has nothing to do with Ottoman games, religion, nationalism etc. There was a coup attempt in Turkey for God's sake and the Turks had enough with the US. If Americans are saying they didn't inhale it and that they did not have a relationship with Gulen Lewinsky and that it was actually an Erdogan false flag op, well, so be it, what can I say? I'm not here to convince anybody! I'm just airing my views. And I don't think anybody in Turkey is going to change their minds about the coup even after Erdogan is gone.

Turkey has never been independent. It was looted just like what happened in Russia after CCCP fell apart. When Putin rose to power he found himself in power struggle. Remember what happened to Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Nevzlin? Remember the theatre raid, Beslan school massacre, bombs going off at subway stations etc? Erdogan's TR and Putin's Russia share similar fates.

I don't know which direction TR is heading. Turks talk about KIZIL ELMA (Red Apple) and Erdogan quickly corrected it to ilay-i kelimetullah (another way of saying Jihad) the other day. Countries under duress have megaloideas and all that.

We are debating but nobody makes any comments about 'factual' things I write. Anything you guys want to say regarding Mitch Winney, Tuncay Opcin, Emre Uslu, there are more names in my earlier posts. How can you guys debate with me unless you know or can say anything about those names? Interesting. Either you have no idea what you are talking about or you know what I am talking about which doesn't suit you much? Look at Hausmeister, he demands the 'unconditional' release of 150 'journalists' and when I ask for their names, he can't come up with any. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 22:28 utc | 42

Pepe Escobar's provided two new articles about China's BRI: Afghanistan and TAPI again, plus Quad attempt at its disruption

Just another set of reminders about what's really at play with our Hybrid Third World War. Great Pepe prediction:

"But the key piece of the puzzle is his public recognition that Afghanistan, slowly but surely, may now be positioning itself – finally – as a connector between Central Asia and South Asia.

"The next piece will come from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) – with Russia, China, India, Pakistan and Iran making sure the war in Afghanistan is over for good."

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2018 22:35 utc | 43

>That women, Agata B, has recently moved with her husband to the United States.

She has social media presence, and I do not think she is a troll manager. She has a background in philology and philosophy, with blog entries of matching sort. She offers translation services and English classes for adults. She had some office type employment; Savushkina 55 is a possibility, but most likely in the capacity of a translator, or an atmospheric type writer, not a 'troll-mother'. In November, 2015 she moved to Minsk, for a significant other. There are some posts from Minsk and some from St Pets since, but it is quite likely that she was in Minsk during crucial US presidential campaign days. If so, off the Mueller dome she went. Dozhd sources, possibly sellouts, or else, she was correcting their bad English --which is not a felony.

Posted by: {o,{o}} | Feb 26 2018 22:51 utc | 44

@8 Nonsense Factory

Ahmed Nafeez exposed The Rendon Group and the Pentagon's Highlands Forum a few years ago.

And then there's today's nonsense.

Are You a Russian Troll?

Posted by: Fec | Feb 27 2018 0:45 utc | 45

ConfusedPundit 42

I believe the coup was genuine. Russian and Iranian public support for Erdogan makes me think Russian intelligence had wind of it. If some stories are true, then Russia may well have saved Erdo's arse. I believe Erdogan instantly turned the failed coup to his advantage, perhaps with Russian help. Similar to Deir Ezzor instantly turned into an ISIS meat grinder after the US attack.
Turkey is in a bit of a mess with Gulenists and I guess NATO military types and other groups willing to work with, and bow to, foreign powers to gain power in Turkey.
As for other things you comment on that contradict any other information to be found outside Turkey, you may be right, maybe not. There is no way of checking for someone who does not live in Turkey. Only Turk/Erdogan actions in Syria can be seen and that goes back to Turkey or Erdogan's oil trade with ISIS, which Russia destroyed. Thinking about it some more after your last comments, Russia is willing to work with Erdogan in Syria and I guess Russian intelligence would have a fair idea of Erdogan's ambitions. Russia publicly at least seem in agreement with Erdogan's military moves in Idlib, the so called monitoring posts and such that are part of the Astana agreement.
I guess time will how much of what you say is correct or not.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 27 2018 3:20 utc | 46

Below is a ZH link of a posting by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He is the author of The Black Swan and his latest is called Skin in the Game. I encourage MoA folks to read this posting about the "journalists" that have reviewed his new work as it shows a brilliant mind at work.

Taleb Slams Journalists: My New Book Is "Designed To Be Hated By Bullshitters"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 27 2018 4:14 utc | 47

@38 Hausmeister.. pandering to nationalism is pandering to the lowest form of human nature... it is no surprise erdogan cultivates this.. it is like stirring up tribal passions.. that seems to be his specialty... as i have said many times, i don't think it is going to work out for him, but as peter @46 mentions - time will tell..

@39 peter... we'll see... i am kinda tired of this same song from confused pundit in auto replay all the time.. whether it's a full time gig for him, or he just comes by it naturally, he mostly comes across as some really cheap pr firm working for erdogan, lol...

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 4:19 utc | 48

i listened to this cbc radio show this morning... it is a perfect example of not everything is as it seems and one can be fooled easily with appearances.. it is the story of the daughter who didn't discover the similarities she shared with her father until a certain point in time where it was revealed to her that although her dad was a married devote catholic and father of 13, was also gay! - if you are into hearing of the daughters story - check the link out... it is a fine example of things not being just what they may appear to be on the surface..

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 4:27 utc | 49

Confused, Peter AU

I believe the coup was NOT genuine because it resulted in the BEST outcome for Erdogan, Gulen, and USA.

The Russians imposed biting trade sanctions after Turkey shot down their warplane. This weakened Erdogan and could’ve led to a REAL coup. Any such real coup might’ve ultimately led to a chaotic, divided Turkey and/or a return to secularism. Would such an outcome be advantageous to Gulen? Would such an outcome be advantageous to US/CIA?

Erdogan and Gulen had fought secularism together for many years. The supposed break between Erdogan and Gulen was ONLY due to their being caught framing secular military leaders for plotting against the state. Naturally, the Gulenist judiciary took the fall for this so that Islamist Erdogan could retain power and continue to push the Islamist agenda.

The 2016 apparent coup attempt reeks of the same calculation: keep Erdogan in power because that is most advantageous to Gulen and US/CIA.

The distancing of US and Turkey after the apparent coup made it MUCH easier for USA to cozy up to the Kurds. The Kurds would have less need for a USA ‘protector’ if Turkey was in chaos and/or moving back to secularism.

Despite the coup, Erdogan has remained true to the Islamist agenda that he shares with Gulen and also to the anti-Assad goals of the ‘Assad must go!’ Coalition.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2018 4:44 utc | 50

@47 psychohistorian would enjoy his writing, if you liked that quick vignette in zerohedge.. i've read 4 of his books - fooled by randomness, black swan, antifragile and the bed of procrustes.. thanks for the note. i look forward to reading his new book when it is a bit less expensive in another year or so....

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 4:47 utc | 51

The story of Gulen and Erdogan

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2018 4:51 utc | 52

"Canada condemns the approach of the Assad regime and its allies, Russia and Iran. The regime has targeted civilians and public services such as schools and hospitals, and has used siege and starvation tactics chemical weapons and barrel bombs. Canada has been providing funding to groups working as first responders in eastern Ghouta, including the White Helmets. We hail the courage of those working to save lives..."

Canada Calls For Immediate Implementation of Ceasefire in Syria

Shame on FM Chrystia Freeland and Canada. Cheers for Eva Bartlett and Syria!

Posted by: John Gilberts | Feb 27 2018 4:51 utc | 53

Russian-Turkish Axis Faces Meltown

Question: Would Erdogan risk Turk-Russian relations if he fears/hates USA and Gulen so much?

Would Erdogan have insisted on moving against the Kurds just before the Sochi peace conference if he was being a ‘team player’?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2018 5:14 utc | 54

Supposedly the coup plotters had sought approval and support of NATO. Why would they think they might succeed if they needed such outside approval/support? Have previous Turk military coups ever sought such approval/support?

If they did seek NATO support then they are likely to have been secularists. But a return to secularism would’ve been fiercely resisted by both pro-Erdogan and pro-Gulen people. Turkey would be racked by internal troubles for years.

What convinced me was the realization that Russian trade sanctions and lingering anger had all but taken Turkey out of the game. And with the passage of U.N. resolution 2249, the writing was on the wall for ISIS. The obvious next play was for the affection of the Kurds. But that was spoiled by US alliance with Turkey - until the coup.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2018 5:37 utc | 55

At some point the Western world is going to have to deal with the success of socialism in China

China Focus: China to start action plans targeting "great modern socialist country"

I know there are those that say that China has an oligarchy like the Western world but time will tell if socialism continues to flourish in China as it seems to be doing now. Who knows, the next half century could see the end of rule by birthright.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 27 2018 6:18 utc | 56

Jackrabbit 50
Where I raised my family in a remote area, my wife undertook much of our children's schooling. Each would have one or two half hour lessons via HF radio per day and for the rest, my wife did the hard yards, and would teach the children according to the books that where sent out.Give them a five minute break and the son would pedal off to the waterhole five k away to check his fishing lines and come back an hour later and so forth.
The eldest daughter although quite smart was getting poor grades. One time when my wife was away, I had to be the teacher. I found that the eldest daughter given very lightly ambiguous facts, could not make a decision either way and answer a question. I taught her to make a decision on the most probable rather than being indecisive. She went up several grades from that point on.

When the teacher of time and hindsite marks our score, it may be your take, or perhaps it may be my take that is correct.

More often than not, nowadays, I think what a shit world this is. Genuine regards to you jackrabbit.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 27 2018 6:54 utc | 57

Confused Pundit

Your bullshit of being an impartial observer of what Turks were thinking threw me for a bit (the bullshit of impartial observer part).
Would appreciate it if you continue commenting here. Your comments appear to be, no matter paid for or otherwise, are what you genuinely are thinking. The third party observations, I think are also your own. ConfusingPundit is perhaps a better user name.
The common enemy of all is the hegemon. The USI as you term it, the anglo-zionist's as the Saker terms it at his blog, (perhaps angloi-zionist is the most apt title. I am anglo), Pat Lang at SST terms it the borg, but that is only the US segment, but most likely the most powerful part of the hegemon.
The hegemon, or because the US military and the US dollar are its power, I simply call it the US, this is the enemy of all who are not part of it. Independent thinkers and independent nations are the hegemon's enemies. No two independent thinkers or independent nations will think alike.
you have stated your loyalty to your country which, I think is something to be respected anywhere.
There are many problems between nations and within nations, but until the hegemon is destroyed, none of these can be resolved. The hegemon - USI as you call it - is the enemy of all who are not part of it.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 27 2018 7:41 utc | 58

james 48

ConfusingPundit may be the more apt username? My polite conversation is sometimes short of politeness.
ConfusedPundit was bullshitting us on certain points at the start. So now, what is bullshit, what is not? Interesting to see where this leads. No other Turk commenters here.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 27 2018 7:52 utc | 59

In other news:

Bundeswehr lacks winter clothing for NATO's Eastern Front - Mitteldeutsche Zeitung, Feb. 19, 2018

Berlin - First tanks, now west and winter clothing: New reports of equipment deficiencies in the Bundeswehr throw a bad light on the troops.

For the leadership of the rapid reaction force of NATO 2019 the Bundeswehr is missing not only tanks, but also protective vests, winter clothing and tents. This is in a paper of the army command, about which the "Rheinische Post" reported. Parliamentarians of all parties in the Bundestag reacted outraged. The Ministry of Defense relativized the defect reports. The operational readiness of the troops was not endangered.

To counter the Russian aggression in Crimea...

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 27 2018 8:08 utc | 60

@ james 48

„Interesting to see where this leads. No other Turk commenters here.“
No wonder. Everybody who is living in Turkey or regularly visits Turkey or has Turkish friends will under no circumstances contribute here or elsewhere in the Internet unless being able or apt to take a heavy risk. Their surveillance of the Internet is strong. Denunciations is kind of a favourite sport for the bulk of the typical Erdogan lovers. So in Turkey people just stopped the habit to discuss political affairs in the public. If you try it they smile at you and ask back: "And what about the weather?" - The cheating narrative is that the country is again in another war for independence.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 27 2018 9:51 utc | 61


We have to be more specific than just saying 'The Elites':

1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Bankster Coup
2000 'Bust Out' of US Retirement Funds in Dot.Bomb
2001 Pentagon Patriot Act Coup (4 Buildings 2 Planes)
2003 Pentagon Yellow Cake Coup (Unfunded Oil Wars)
2003-2007 'Bust Out' of US Treasury
2008 'Bust Out' of US Home Equity
2011 TBTF-TARP Bankster Coup
2013 Citizens United Deep State Coup
2016 ZioWarPigA Vers ZioWarPig B Deep State Coup
2018 Final 'Bust Out' US Treasury, SS & MC Trust Funds

This is FAR MORE than some 3rd-person passive-voice 'both parties are controlled by elites' laissez faire political effort. This is (for USAryans) a Mad Clown Posse Highway to Hell active belligerency planned, organized and executed economic war, that will implode the World. USAryan youth unemployment/ underemployment and homelessness/ still-living-at-home is as high as during the Panic of 1898.

This is a tectonic holocaust, more so, because USAryan society is completely ruptured between the have nothings and the have so much they can't spend it fast enoughs, between legions of poor, minorities and elderly living in tent cities, and the obscenely rich laughing un cabaret.

'How terrible is the Truth, when there is no help in the Truth.'

Posted by: Chipnik | Feb 27 2018 9:55 utc | 62

Dear Peter AU 1 | Feb 27, 2018 2:41:28 AM | 58

I want to answer your post but first I should elaborate on my thinking process and then perhaps you can have a better idea about what I say and why I say them.

1) Yes I'm a loyal person. To myself, then to my family, to my friends, to my neighborhood, to the country I live in and then to the humanity. So if I say I'm trying to be an objective observer and if that doesn't sound convincing to you it's because you don't know what I have to put up with here, you don't see the other side of the coin.

X says: Death to America!
Me: Why? It's a beautiful country, a lot of great people, possibly nicer than you.
X: OK, death the US govt.
Me: Why? There are a lot of people working for their govt.
X: Uh, OK, the CIA guys then!
Me: Why? They have kids too, they are trying to make a living.
X: Uhm, OK, down with the bad guys!
Me: Now you started talking! Carry on, refine your thoughts, making generalisations and outright hatred is no good.

That is just one example to show you that I'm argumentative here too. Just don't think I'm a nationalistic zealot targeting you in a shooting alley.

2) Of course I'm nationalistic, when it's turn in the ladder, because I'm loyal, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind towards the other nations? I defend my turf a little bit, strictly against the baddies and that's all.

3) I can't stand the evil minded people. You can nuke me, I don't mind it, provided that you do it just for the hell of it because human beings do enjoy hurting each other. I'd call you inconsiderate, I'd be cross with you but that's all. We are barbarians, we are beasts. However, if you secretly declare hegemony over me and if you smile at my face and then give me some Monsanto food, well, that's not on! Can you see the nuances?

4) So when I defend these guys over those guys it's on condition. I won't chop off your head, I won't torture you in Abu Ghraib either, I won't blow myself up in Boston nor will I take money from the CIA guys to undermine this govt here. Everything's all in balance in my 'mental cosmos' as Hausmeister put it. So is it now clear to you that you couldn't possibly make me work as a silly troll or something either? I'm not sexist, I'm not xenophobic, I'm not racist either. In short I'm a very boring person! My only crime is that I'm from this part of the world and appear to be defending a vilified person or a nation! But I'm not guilty. I'm trying to point out the mistakes some commenters are making.

5) Now let's go back to the coup case. It was arranged "to keep Erdogan in power"? Yes, that is a possibility. The coup failed? Yes, that is most likely. Erdogan knew there was going to be a coup and used it to his benefit? Yes, that is a possibility. We can count a few more options except 1: Erdogan's false flag. That is out of question. That was the immediate reaction coming from the Neocons in the US and from their clique elsewhere in the world. The Gulenists are still at large and Erdogan is still being accused of masterminding the coup by their 'journalists', 'academics' and 'politicians' in the US and EU and they get help from their colleagues there. They are still clinging to the false flag option.

6) My argument has been centered on the fact that it wasn't a false flag. We can discuss about other options. There was a thief in my room, but whether he came in by mistake, or that he was just going to grab some food and go or take my wallet and music system with him is another case. Erdogan in pyjamas was not the thief as the neocons claim and it was not sham as some commenters said here. As simple as that.

7) Yes I am impartial. I'm doing my best. If I am making any mistakes, well, sorry, I'm a real person, not a troll, no hidden agenda, please do correct me. However, when I stand my ground I may sound like I'm supporting Erdogan but that's because some guys are like zombies, the Gulenists, their bosses are zombies, they are Batinites, some are professionals too, they won't accept anything you say. Since I'm a real person, a free thinker, an ordinary person, just like any other person with similar qualities I presume that if I present the other side of the story then the other party will go 'Oh, really, now I see it!' It's a natural behaviour. I know I won't get anywhere with the zombies and I know that trying to influence only a few people doesn't mean much if you want turn the tide against them and so I'm simply enjoying my time writing here without expecting not much in return! I will insist it was not an Erdogan's false flag come rain or shine though. Down with the zombies!

8) Please print this out and stick it to the fridge with a blu-tack or upload the post to your car's navigator and refer to it before you comment on my posts. Especially you, James the inquisotor!

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 27 2018 10:52 utc | 63

Please continue to post at will, your perspective is appreciated by this antipodean living in the mid-Atlantic.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Feb 27 2018 13:54 utc | 64

Shame on FM Chrystia FreeLand and Canada. Cheers for Eva Bartlett and Syria!
Posted by: John Gilberts | Feb 26, 2018 11:51:48 PM | 53

Chrystia's mouth is in Canada but her loyalty is in Tel Aviv.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2018 16:07 utc | 65

Mitch Winney, The Pentagon's official graphics designer has designed all YPG artworks. Inluding flags, patches and everything else. Why are the Turkish social media accounts suspended by Twitter and Facebook and Youtube and why does Google censor them when they try to draw attention to the fact that there is an international network of top end YPG support? Confused Pundit at 23.

Camp 1 globalists, proper earners, supposedly egalitarian…Everyone has a right to their own identity, be it sexual / gender / age / ethnicity / religion - not of course political identity or even vaguely economic aka class belonging such as worker’s rights! Savvy, media oriented (often involved in, working for, etc.), always for minority rights of any kind (with the ‘rights’ not being well defined), snowflake considerations, individualistic, prone to victimology and AID (sob sob and be paid..) discourse.

Violently opposed to, …. to having great comtempt for, Camp 2:

Those nationalistic, cohesive (for large numbers), mildly conservative socially, religious (exception made for the very personal ‘religions’ and Judaism); the poor / very badly educated (“deplorables”, “useless eaters,” though latter expression is not public…); those involved in primary production (slave labor, factory workers, poor farmers, etc.); those who believe in, vote for, ‘leaders’ whom Camp 1 despises, which includes Erdogan, Trump, Putin, etc.

The Kurds are the cutest. A people without a land! .. They are peaceful. They have their own language. They fought ISIS. They have been oppressed by a long list of nasties. Sykes-Picot was a disaster! They can contribute to democracy and human rights! They aren’t real Muslims (or only very moderate secular ones.) The Kurds respect women’s rights, see their valiant cute girl soldiers, and women play a very important role in society, they participate in nation building and fight for gender rights.

I need not go on. This is of course only one aspect but it is important.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 27 2018 16:36 utc | 66

@ Noirette
The selection left for us then is only between Pest and Cholera? Bright future.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 27 2018 16:53 utc | 67

well for what it is worth, it looked like a controlled coup as i see it... erdogan appears to have gotten wind of it from russia or whoever and seemed to play it in a way similar to the way the usa played 9-11 for all it's worth.. and fwiw - 9-11 seemed to me like a controlled thing too..too many inconsistencies in the story line for it to not be a controlled event.. what i mean by controlled event, or coup is that those in power got wind of it beforehand but let it unfold in order to take advantage of it.. now, whether it was completely staged from the start - no way i can tell, but that is my take on this issue of the coup in turkey, or 9-11 in the usa...interestingly, they are both pivotal moments as they have been used much like how a false flag is used, to institute all sorts of draconian legislation that stifles freedoms, whether it is of the press, judiciary or whatever else that gets stifled as a result of this clampdown mentality that comes afterwards...

which brings me to erdogan and his clampdown mindset.. the fact his approach here is an exact replica of bush jr's famous comment 'you're either with us, or against us', is really no surprise!!! the fact he's silenced the media of any views contrary to his own is a very bad sign..the fact he wants to legally threaten any opposition to his views is also a very bad sign.. part of the byproduct is a turkish citizen like confusedpundit who get their talking points from non nuetral new sources like the daily sabah and think they are in touch with what is going on! fair better for cp to hang around moa - absolutely... as there might be room for a crack of insight to penetrate into just how flimsy erdogans false tower of babble - the daily sabah - looks too an outsider who is exposed to many alternative sources, that are being intentionally withheld from the people of turkey...

@59 peter au.. i agree! thanks..

@61 confusedpundit - now referred to by me as cp... quote "Especially you, James the inquisotor!" - cp.. here is my problem... you wanted to support some passing troll by the name of bobby mueller as opposed to an ongoing conversation with me.. i was hurt by that low blow and frankly, i lost a lot of respect for you just in that one comment.. and, i am not afraid to say all that either.. i felt i had invested a good amount of time and patience with you and supported you up until you threw that cheap comment.. i have friends in turkey at present who i remain in contact with and i do have a great admiration for turkey and it's people, but that might be because i still remain an outsider.. however for all the comments you make on the cia, gulen and etc. for you to suggest that others here are not allowed to comment on how they see turkey going down a dark and dangerous road here, seems to not show a degree of detachment or impartiality on the comments of others... so yeah - i can forgive, but i don't forget... if you want to dish out shit on the actions of other countries - fine.. be prepared to hear about some shit that turkey is responsible here, even if you won't ever read about it in the daily sabah or your non free media, as you won't!

@63 hoarsewhisperer... that is not too far off, lol.... reading john helmer helped bring me up to speed on chrystia freeland.. she continues to own an apt. in kiev and her loyalty appears to be towards anyone who is against russia... she is one fucked up lady to have as foreign minister in canada at present... the only explanation for it is she is on george soros payroll, but of that, all is being kept secret.. our media won't touch this story with a 100 foot pole either..

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 17:23 utc | 68

Yes, Hausmeister 65 v. pessimistic post. The new global class war! Coming near to you since …2000 or so.

What better, a Huxlian dystopia - sex, drugs, fakey togertheness, narcissim - to Orwellian hell - jackboots and bowing down…?

My sloppy depiction requires a lot of refining / criticism / or more, but it sums up imho roughly why Western Gvmts / PTB / and particularly a good part of the public (as in ex. Kurds) support splinter groups, anti-nationalist ‘unity’ (or some such).

Local ‘gvmts, potentates’ and the public are instrumentalised for wider, larger aims. ‘Independence’ for ethnic groups and the firing up of twitter revolutionaries against oppressive Powers, Dictators (e.g. Arab Spring) are superbly selective. For ex. Catalonian independence was smartly shut down by the EU. Imho it was on purpose that it was let ‘run’ for a while to demonstrate that ‘no go.’ Of course Catalonia is a rich and privileged Region, even Franco favored it tops. And that is for a ‘people’ who already occupies a defined territory.

So territory and class mix up in many ways. Serious study, and discussion, is needed.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 27 2018 18:01 utc | 69

peter au - here is something on australia that you might enjoy reading..

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 21:17 utc | 70

Dear james | Feb 27, 2018 12:23:38 PM | 66

I don't know Bobby Mueller, I don't know if he is a troll or not. Most people thought I was a troll at the beginning too but of course you might be right about him. "o yeah - i can forgive, but i don't forget..." You call that forgiving in your town? LOL. The wolf will survive the winter but he won't forget the frost is the expression here. It means he will take his revenge. Most Turks use it these days meaning they are planning a bitter blow to the US.

Mitch Winney, Mccan Worldwide, Max Witting, Janet Biehl, Karokh Akram from Israel, Twana Wali from UAE, Rick Bajornas from NY, Maher Sinjary, Ranj Pshdary... And many more names are circulating in the media in Turkey.

A massive US support for international advertising campaigns to help create a nice YPG/PKK image worldwide

and you are criticising my quote from Daily Sabah?

Interesting. No wonder people hate Erdogan so much abroad. There must be a similar campaign ongoing.

The US now wants Turks to stop Afrin Op.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 27 2018 21:50 utc | 71

Even tho some MoAites have considerable emotional and philosophic resistance towards Counrepunch I do commend an article by Luciana Bohne Bomb the Public Schools: a Modest Proposal published therein to all.

Here are a couple of paras which typify the flavour of the piece:

You may object that bombing all of America’s public schools is a bit extreme. Consider, however, the immediate benefit. Freed of the burden of attending dangerous schools, massive numbers of high-school seniors would be freed up to join the military. They would learn discipline, patriotism, tattoo arts, and acquire the killing skills necessary to keep America safe. They would not find military culture all that different from high school culture. They could drink, puke, drink some more, puke, and have sex while consensually inanimate.

If this utilitarian argument for bombing the public schools fails to convince you, consider President Trump’s top priority for education; school choice. Right now, nine out of ten American children attend public schools. If the public schools were bombed, the overwhelming majority of children, now shackled by the federal government to the entitlement of free, secular and liberal antiquated education, would be forced to embrace “choice.” They could opt for charter schools or secure vouchers for private and religious schools.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 27 2018 23:27 utc | 72

psychohistorian @56:

There will always be oligarchs. One group can be removed, but eventually another would step in to fill the void. It's best to concentrate on managing them.

Posted by: Ian | Feb 28 2018 1:57 utc | 73

@71 Ian - "There will always be oligarchs"

In the immortal words of Chou En Lai: Too soon to tell.


Posted by: Grieved | Feb 28 2018 2:21 utc | 74

@ Ian who wrote:
There will always be oligarchs. One group can be removed, but eventually another would step in to fill the void. It's best to concentrate on managing them.

Are you an aspiring oligarch?

Why do you think there will always be some? (Thanks Grieved for the context)

Do you think that oligarchs have and continue to do a good job for humanity?

Please tell us how one manages an oligarch?

I believe that if you replaced the term oligarch with "person of accumulated social merit" I could really get behind a world like that.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2018 2:41 utc | 75

@69 cp... i don't mean (i can forgive, but not forget) it in the same way as the turks then!! and regarding your comment "and you are criticizing my quote from Daily Sabah?".. no, i didn't see that you quoted them in your last post.. i disregard them on principle.. it would be like believing much of anything from the nyt, wapo or wsj - which would be a mistake! if i want to know what the usa admin is thinking, it would benefit me to read these outlets.. the daily sabah is much the same - if i want to know what erdogan thinks, or how he likes to pitch his dictatorial actions, i can read the daily sabah, to get my brain washed.. if i want objectivity, i would have to go elsewhere!

and, for the record.. i don't hate erdogan, although i do have a problem with dictators that are incapable of seeing how their shit is no better then that of the one's they criticize - in this case assad, who he refers to as a murderer and tyrant who he refuses to relate to... it would be very easy to any number of people to adopt the same attitude towards erdogan! i certainly view a number of world leaders in a similar light starting with bush 2...

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2018 3:06 utc | 76

psychohistorian @73: hominem attacks again?   Really?   I'm just a realist.

"Why do I think there will always be one?"   Because you need to consider who "we", humans are.   Have you forgotten about politics?   We are social creatures that gravitate toward Alpha personalities.   Gather enough followers and resources, you're back to Square One.

I'm no lawyer, so I won't be able to draw up a legal document for you (preferable).   However, if all else fails, there is the Thomas Jefferson's Tree of Liberty "management" style to consider.

Please tell the rest of us, how one can *prevent* oligarchs from forming when taking into consideration human nature. Serious inquiry.

Posted by: Ian | Feb 28 2018 3:36 utc | 77

Posted by: Ian | Feb 27, 2018 10:36:18 PM | 75
It isn't difficult to construct a society which discourages the creation of oligarchs when one considers they come about by two methods sometimes separate but often the wannabe 'olly' uses both avenues of material accumulation.

The first is by inheritance, the majority of ollies are from a long line of grasping greedies and I can think of no rational excuse for a society where a few 'lucky' humans collect big when most cop little more than the dank smell of an oily rag upon reaching the age of majority. Confiscate dead people's assets and divide them up amongst all the population.

The second way is gross criminality. The likes of Rockerfeller and Carnegie committed violence and murder to ensure their staff did not enjoy the fruits of their labour and that it all went to the bossfella.
A more recent olly, Bill Gates paid off DC pols to ensure that intellectual property law guaranteed microsoft a monopoly for at least the first decade of the technological revolution.
Arseholes such as they should be crowding out the prison system, not the current inmates whose only real crime was to have been born in poverty.

It isn't tough to devise ways and means, what is tough is ensuring that such laws stay in place long after the populations that suffrered through the excesses of a particular type of olly have shuffled off.
The classic example of that was the way that financial regulation was tossed in the shitter as soon as all those who had suffered through the great depression had karked it. Or that once the ww2 generation were too aged, dead or infirm, amerika's warmonger oligarchs began cranking up actual conflicts where lotsa young men would kill or be killed. Using exactly the same line of bulldust that was used on young men across this rock during the great euro-war of 1914 to 45.

endless footage of planes crashing into Manhattan monstrosities, just like the endless footage of Japan trying to liberate the indigenous people of Hawaii from amerikan imperialism by dropping bomb onto the amerikan navy.
After one view everyone got the picture but repetition was essential to indoctrinate the young men into killing for the rich.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 28 2018 4:11 utc | 78

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 27, 2018 4:50:06 PM | 69

Uh, you forgot to tell how many Turks hate Erdogan. „The US now wants Turks to stop Afrin Op“ Polling is impossible in Turkey right now but obviously a clear majority in Turkey would like to stop Afrin immediately.
Yes, there is massive PR-work against Erdogan internationally in the MSM. Right that you mention Sabah in the same frame: odd propaganda instrument, nothing more.
You should not forget that quite a number of young leftist people cooperate and support Kurds in Turkey and visit them in Syria as well. They are not sponsored by Soros! ;-) And what they report draws a picture extremely different from the propaganda in the Turkish media. Of course this is more credible. In Germany they have trouble as the German repression works in good cooperation wth Erdogan against Kurds and leftists here. That German police people give to Erdogan the names of such opponents is no secret here. So my guess is that what you report about the present atmosphere in Turkey is wishful thinking from the point of view of that part of the society that supports Erdogan. We should never forget: this is a minority.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 28 2018 7:15 utc | 79

@ Hausmeister | Feb 28, 2018 2:15:46 AM | 77

The opposition leader is a founding member of Tesev, one of the most notorious Soros NGOs in Turkey. The guy has lost 8 elections against Erdogan so far and yet he refuses to step down. He doesn't let any candidate challenge him in the party because only the delegates (appointed by him) can decide who can do so. Erdogan is a dictator (always gets twice as many votes) whereas the opposition leader is our saviour?

This guy leads a party, CHP, founded by Ataturk. I was educated and brought up with an ideology based on Kemalist doctrines. Neither this man nor his party has anything to do with the kind of Kemalist ideology I know of. He is a crook. A thief. A liar. And his narrative is on par with that of American and European (and Turkish) Elite's. And he is a leftist. And he is a man who always complains about Erdogan's corruption scandals but his deputy, formerly a poor man who served tea at the party HQs now has hundreds of properties, he is rolling in it. The opposition leader and his deputy and the majority of the delegates are from the same city.

Now, I don't care whether Ataturk or his party CHP or his ideology was a good thing or not. But if you are following a totally opposite path then you owe me an explanation. What is the reason for this U-turn? Tell me, explain it to me and then perhaps I will side with you. Nope, you shall do as you are you are told. Yes, sir! So much for democracy! Who is the 'real dictator' here?

The other 'leftists' you talk about read newspapers owned by another rich guy, another member of the Soros gang, who is in jail now because of his involvement in the coup attempt. The opposition leader defends the YPG calling them 'a group of people defending their 'homeland' (what, their homeland being Afrin, Tal Abyad, Manbij, Jarablus, Raqqa etc for example?). The opposition is left for you but they are the defenders of the Elite and the status quo for us the citizens. The richest folks in the country are also the most ardent followers of Ataturk. They are also the business partners of the Ro-Ro Brothers.

The opposition is 'left' for you but Erdogan is 'left' for us in the sense that he is a 'revolutionary'. He transfered wealth from the rich to the poor. The so called 'left' (backed by the rich) protested against Erdogan during the massive, Arab Spring style Gezi Protests. The anti-Erdogan rich guys helped the protestors in every way they could. I'm one of the protestors FYI. The richest one turned his luxury hotel into an infirmary during the protests. And his agents in the media glorified him for his chivalrous attitude. Only a year later he sacked hundreds of workers from his FIAT car factory after they complained about the wages. And his media suppressed

Hausmeister, the opposition represents the rich minority in Turkey (and they represent the global octopus of the 'Greedy 1%' as one commenter put it here), but you think Erdogan is a minority?

Wait, don't get me wrong, I told you that I'm not on the same wavelenght with Erdogan. But don't you think that a guy, formerly a voter (me and my entire family lineage, my friends) for the opposition now hates the very same opposition so much and is that not a tragedy on their part?

"a clear majority in Turkey would like to stop Afrin immediately." Excuse me but you are mistaken (sheer mere pure real undilutaed BS) on the contrary, except the main opposition leader, the Kurdish fascists and the Soros gang who backs them financially and through their media, everybody supports the Afrin op and they will support the next op and the next one and the next one... Me too. The majority will topple Erdogan if he didn't carry on with the Op Olive and they would take care of their own business. What on earth are you talking about?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 28 2018 10:25 utc | 80

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 28, 2018 2:15:46 AM | 79

"So my guess is that what you report about the present atmosphere in Turkey is wishful thinking from the point of view of that part of the society that supports Erdogan. We should never forget: this is a minority." that sounds more accurate to me then the way cp pitches it... thanks.

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2018 17:45 utc | 81

Confused Pendit & all

An article here at al Masdar News Syria has recalled from Idlib, a spy who has been embedded in the so called free Syrian army for the duration of the war as they no longer see a need for him to remain.

Also, a Southfront analysis reprinted at the saker blog, that covers Turkeys current attitude to Syria titled .. Escalation In Syria – How Far Can The Russians Be Pushed?

Syria pulling their spy from Idlib seems to indicate that no matter the public rhetoric between Syria and Turkey, the Astana agreement is working and Turkey is doing its part.
The SF analysis made a lot of sense and a section on Turkey attacking the Kurds in Afrin to create headaches for the US. US has been responsible for proxy attacks on Russian forces in Syria although the US has not directly attacked Russian forces in Syria. According to the SF analysis, Turkey can attack US proxies such as the Kurd's with relative impunity as they are still part of nato

With the combination of the AMN article and the SF analysis, it seems the hostile rhetoric between Syria and Turkey may well just be for public consumption.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 1 2018 7:48 utc | 82

@ Peter AU 1 | Mar 1, 2018 2:48:14 AM | 82

"With the combination of the AMN article and the SF analysis, it seems the hostile rhetoric between Syria and Turkey may well just be for public consumption."

That is correct. Erdogan and his party officials carry on with their usual show but TR-SR have been in speaking terms for a long time. The only change in Erdogan's rhetoric is this: Assad is a mass murderer 'but our secret services are talking with each other' in small latter at the end of his statement.

TR is seeking regional alliance with Russia-Iran-Iraq-SR. The govt. is getting ready for talks with the US (during which the US hopes to find out about TR's plans?).

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 1 2018 10:32 utc | 83

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 28, 2018 5:25:40 AM | 80
„... everybody supports the Afrin op and they will support the next op and the next one and the next one... Me too.“ Sorry, outright nonsense. Sorry, outright nonsense. I have a lot of Turkish friends and acquaitances. There is nobody that supports this Afrin op and they told me that they do know only a few people who support it. A typical construct of the manipulated media in Turkey. It is forbidden now to publish public dissent. Punctum The crazy mix of islamism-nationalism that you support here as it seems covers a maximum of 30% in Turkey, plus 10-15% opportunistic followers, at best. All the big city areas in Turkey and the whole coast line is against Erdogan and his rule. But of course they have no access to the media, no voice. - To talk of the PKK as terrorists is ok, but only if you mention the Turkish state as a terrorist in the same sentence as well. According to our standards all jihadists right now are terrorists. None of the expensive PR-efforts of Western and Turkish media will convince any educated brain.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 1 2018 11:54 utc | 84

@ Hausmeister | Mar 1, 2018 6:54:23 AM | 84

"All the big city areas in Turkey and the whole coast line is against Erdogan and his rule."

Yes. Similarly, Trump and May (Brexit referendum) didn't get support from the big cities. In Turkey those areas are under the influence of the Elite.

"It is forbidden now to publish public dissent."

The agents of the imperialists are having hard times. That's what people think. But people call him 'dictator' on TV and papers, everyday. Erdogan and his lot were forbidden before. He was even put to jail! Now it's his turn. Before he rose to power he protested peacefully. When he was in power his opponents protested violently. They killed people, the country was in flames. And there was a coup attempt too. I think there is a lot at stake.

Who would you like Turkey to be ruled by? The US+EU? You mean by other religions? Not by 'Islamists' but rather by christianists and judaists? James likes the current main opposition leader, the founder of a Soros NGO. In coastal areas you are talking about, he gets most of the votes.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 1 2018 13:06 utc | 85

@ ConfusedPundit | Mar 1, 2018 8:06:43 AM | 85
„Who would you like Turkey to be ruled by? The US+EU? You mean by other religions? Not by 'Islamists' but rather by christianists and judaists?“
??? Confused or mad? A secular regime would we welcome. All religions are free, but home at home, are no public affair. And no taxpayers money is spent for any of them!!! The only party that fights for such a concept is the HDP right now, or the YPG in Syria. But they have no access to the media as Turkey is one of many corrupt crony capitalism states. Like Syria, Iran, the whole West and of course Russia as well. Face it. Erdogan is anyway the lackey of the West who just struggles for a little bit more autonomy, that is all. Any anti-US theater is for the dumb domestic consumption. His anti-Israel rhetoric as well. At the same time he sells Turkish lands to Israel holdings. But they would lynch you in Turkey in case you would dare to discuss it in the public.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 1 2018 13:53 utc | 86

@ Hausmeister | Mar 1, 2018 8:53:39 AM | 86

Yes. There are both domestic and international claims that Erdogan is serving the interests of Israel. Even the real Islamist McCoy, Erbakan, once said that the Erdogan's party served the 'zionists'. But that's a theory nobody in Turkey is equipped to deal with. Yes you are right, he wants a little autonomy.

Meanwhile Centcom's Votel was in Barzanistan last week. Turkish chief of staff is in Baghdad today. I think TR wants to form an alliance with Russia, Iran, Irak and Syria. An Iranian chap said there are 80 countries involved in the Syrian war. Putin announced they have the most powerful ICBM in the world. And you want Erdogan to be more secular and you want HDP ruling Turkey (IRA leading the UK parliament), you want unconditional release of the puschists. Would you like Erdogan to send you a new sunbed delivered to your cottage on your private Carribean island too?

I think you are beside the point.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 1 2018 15:45 utc | 87

@82 peter.. thanks for your comments.. your quote "With the combination of the AMN article and the SF analysis, it seems the hostile rhetoric between Syria and Turkey may well just be for public consumption."

i think this is true to a good extent, but i don't completely see it this way.. my problem is erdogans use of language... i am reminded of the saying 'you live by the sword, you die by the sword'.. his words towards assad are always very harsh and dishonest... that is one of my many problems with erdogan.. i can't tell if he is pitching to his home crowd, or actually believes the shit he says... that is a problem as i see it...

Posted by: james | Mar 1 2018 17:50 utc | 88

@ ConfusedPundit | Mar 1, 2018 10:45:19 AM | 87
„I think you are beside the point.“
I don't think so. The figures about the rejection of Erdogan/AKP seem realistic. But they cannot find a political expression right now. The country is more corrupt than it has ever been. A lot of educated people of the middle layers in the whole Near East are fed up with those crony capitalist systems with their enforced ideologies, does not matter much whether this is Muslim Brothers sh..., Baathist one or Iranian one. They dream of having a life comparable to that within Western European states. And at present the HDP and the YPG are the only entities that work into this direction. - It was no joke: Erdogan sells in big dimensions Turkish soil to Israelian holdings who use Turks only as cheap labour then.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 1 2018 19:36 utc | 89

@ james | Mar 1, 2018 12:50:49 PM | 88

It's his FITRAT an arabic word with a religious meaning attached to it, God's creation, his nature, his temperament...

A lot of people criticise his style in Turkey. Because it's new to us. Previously, the language of the leaders was straightforward and they had to behave like a gentleman too. His style, a bit too abrubt, and on top of that the influence of the teachings of Islamic Sun Tzu on him, or Takiyyah, art of deception, and on top of that comes his hometown, famous for aggresive people and the district he grew up in Istanbul also famous for roughnecks... Well, there you go, you are confronted with a phenomenal person. He also suffers from epilepsy and diabeties and colon cancer. And he is ruling a country which has a lot of serious issues.

I know whether he is addressing to the public or sending a message abroad. But, not always. It's nerve wrecking to follow him. Perhaps that's why Hausmeister complains about trolls with unusual traits. It's running in the family.

I think the problem with this society is the excessive and widespread practice of allegiance. The Islamists, nationalists and the Kemalists all have their own adherents. So do the Kurds. And these are not small groups of people. The rich and the celebrities and the football fans are the same. Individual behaviour is nowhere to be found. You create a country and you try to fit a nation into it and this is what you end up with. Erdogan has yet another version of a nation, the Islamic Ummah. There you go, a restless society moving in packs. And Erdogan leads this country which is under a lot of international pressure.

Then comes your personal preference into the equation, do you want to find out what he is up to or would you take his words superficially because you can't be bothered? Erdogan was given a “medal of courage" by the American Jewish Committee. How dare you look down on him? LOL.

@ Hausmeister | Mar 1, 2018 2:36:46 PM | 89

You compare the Turkish Republic which has 16 stars on it's presidental emblem representing 16 states they founded so far with YPG who has never had an experience running a state? Perhaps you are talking about the ideas their puppetmasters have for them?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 1 2018 20:01 utc | 90

@ ConfusedPundit | Mar 1, 2018 3:01:07 PM | 90
„Perhaps you are talking about the ideas their puppetmasters have for them?“
Sorry, this is the typical syndrome of what I can call the Mediterraean or Near Eastern illness of brain. The whole world is a children puppet show, everything that happens has puppetmasters then. All in all it is a simple narrative, self-referential, cannot be objected with arguments. Take the arguments of the YPG/HDP-people instead of running away from them. Whatever, the people in the Near East of fed up with such -isms, they want a decent life with free dialogues and no repression of any religion. This can happen only in a secular state and the Muslim Brother ideology of Erdogan is not compatible with it. Same applies to Syria and the Iran as well.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 1 2018 20:18 utc | 91

@cp 90... thanks for the ongoing conversation... i hear what you are saying, but in plain language referring to someone as a tyrant and murderer, as erdogan does towards assad - is disingenuous.. and it doesn't foster a good relationship with the leader of the country next door to you either! and, if we are to explore this deeper, erdogan is guilty of the same! so, regardless of how his words get interpreted in turkey, on the world stage it is a separate story..

as for erdogans medal of courage he was given in 2004, did he ever live up to his statement about going to gaza? i don't recall...

as i see it, turkey is in a tough spot... the leadership needs to figure out a way to bring people together... making a common enemy in the gulen movement, or the kurds, or the cia, or assad, or? seems like a bad recipe for achieving this.. what do you think? you appear to approve of erdogans approach here.. i continue to believe it won't work... he needs to find a way to make peace.. he is good at making war and dividing people... that is not the way forward as i see it..

Posted by: james | Mar 1 2018 20:41 utc | 92

Dear Hausmeister | Mar 1, 2018 3:18:42 PM | 91

You now sound like a globalist shill. Your post is sheer propaganda. You are not debating with me. I'm wondering what makes you think I'll buy into your mumbo jumbo? Sorry but I think you should work for wikileaks. LOL.

@ james | Mar 1, 2018 3:41:29 PM | 92

Erdogan is in a bit of a predicament these days. There are Gulenists, Globalists, Elite vultures circling above his head. You don't know what's going on here. The guys are attacking him ferociously lest he will succeed in winning the upcoming elections. There is a lot at stake I guess. Tough times for him but also risky period for the traitors. I don't understand what the US+EU guys want from him when their countries are in trouble? Why don't the US people want to be independent of 'the greedy 1%' and why don't the EU people want to rule their own countries instead of serving some elite families? Iraq didn't get democracy, Afghanistan didn't get democracy, Libya didn't get democracy, there is no democracy in Egypt. Why do they want democracy in Turkey? I seriously doubt they know what democracy is.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 1 2018 23:12 utc | 93

When ninel came to MoA just as Western-backed Iranian protestests broke out in Iran, patrons of the bar entertained his thoughts and theories for a time until it was clear that he was a troll.

After Confused Pundit’s latest pro-Erdogan tirade I wonder if we have now reached the same point with CP. There is no reasoning with him. But I would ask one question: WHY did Confused Pundit start his charm offensive at MoA about 6 weeks ago? And why does he continue?

We’ve seen many trolls. I can’t remember any that persist in defending dictators and/or foreign meddling unless they are paid and/or ideological. CP’s subterfuge in claiming to be independent while pushing a pro-Erdogan narrative argues for the former.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, CP uses framing to put Erdogan into the best possible light. He will resist any attempt to break free of this artificial frame. With Hausmeister CP has turned to ridicule and innuendo, with james CP muddies the waters so that Erdogan can walk on them.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 2 2018 0:59 utc | 94

Thread graveyard time..

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 2 2018 3:18 utc | 95

@93 cp... i feel we are going around in circles, or even better, i am watching you go around in circles!!! i am going to skip responding to what you have to say.. it ends up getting nowhere, lol.. cheers..

@94 jr / 95 lozion... yeah, i think lozion has it right, lol.... jr - i feel like i am beating a dead horse... and i am not into beating dead horses, lol...

the funny thing is, with cp it's all about turkey.. so much of my thrust with regard to erdogan has been about cps inability to see the damage erdogan has made and continues to make towards turkeys neighbour to it's south, and to its east with the kurds in and outside of turkey... i'ev reached saturation point! i was pretty well there a week or more ago when cp reinforced the hostility of bobby mueller... that was one step too far for me!

Posted by: james | Mar 2 2018 4:40 utc | 96

And on another note there is this comment just in from ZH where one has to look long and hard for nuggets like this
Luc X. Ifer rf80412 Thu, 03/01/2018 - 21:56 Permalink
Economy is not science, basta. Economists are practically scenarists who create plausible enough scenarios meant to support TPTB agenda and for credibility they use mathematical instruments which fed with proper data and adjusted properly deliver the results matching TPTB expectations, self fullfiling prophecies indeed. I have a master in computer science and robotics, I study cognitive sciences and applied math in systems theory and modeling for over 20 years and I can tell you that, that's all what economy is - self fullfiling prophecy tweaked to fit an agenda, and that agenda is not yours, the 99% cattle.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 2 2018 6:31 utc | 97

"At approximately 12:30 A.M. (Damascus Time), the Turkish Air Force bombed the positions of the Syrian government forces that were stationed in the Afrin region of Aleppo."

So far, the ocean going tadpole has been a political survivor, but if he keeps this shit up, his days are numbered. Erdogan as I see him will not be a puppet leader of a vassal state, but his visions of Ottoman empire will bring him down. His aspirations are bigger than Turkey's tech/industrial base. He should be content to be king of his own castle in the multi-polar world. That is the best he can hope for with any chance of succeeding.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 2 2018 8:06 utc | 98

@ Peter AU 1 | Mar 2, 2018 3:06:55 AM | 98

It was a surprise to me too but especially because it coincides with a massive PKK sneak attack on TAF+FSA forces in Afrin which resulted in a lot of casualties. Yesterday was the anniversary of TR parliament's decision not to allow thousands of US+Coalition troops to station on TR land prior to the war on Iraq began. The Americans especially the neocons were absolutely furious about TR's refusal because they had to change their war plans. The Turks feared that once stationed the US troops would never leave Turkey until Oil and Greater Israel related plans were realised. Erdogan accused the MPs (shrewd, eh?) Baykal, the former leader of the main opposition, is the guy who organised the anti-US voting in the parliament. He was targetted by the Gulenists several years later and was replaced with the current clown who lost 8 elections against Erdogan.

Now, why hit the NDF? Did they organised the PKK(YPG) attack on TAF earlier same day to make it look like a US revenge attack? Or was it really a US organized ambush? Or was it a covert Russian chess move? That I don't know. Russia today offered Turkey better protection than NATO. Turks don't want to be part of NATO anymore anyway. But they also fear there might be a secret agreement between the US-Rus so they can't decide.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Mar 2 2018 15:34 utc | 99

ConfusedPundit, when you say Turks fear there may be a secret agreement, is this the average man on the street type thing or the Turkish leadership that fears a secret agreement?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 2 2018 16:15 utc | 100

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