Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 15, 2018

Syria - New 'Chemical Weapons' Fake Planned - Chlorine Though Will Not Do

During the seven years of the war on Syria several accusations were made that the government that it had used 'chemical weapons' against the attacking extremists. The Syrian government denied to have ever released any chemicals. The implausible to murky 'evidence' of such incidents always came from foreign paid  propaganda groups and extremists on the ground. They were likely staged to incriminate the government and to thereby induce military attacks by foreign states.

We currently see several reports which in their combination look like preparations for of another fake 'chemical weapon' incident.

On February 13 the Russian Center for the Reconciliation of Opposing Sides in Syria noted a warning of an upcoming false-flag 'chemical attack' incident:

"On the evening of February 12, a resident from the Serakab settlement located in the Idlib province called the Russian Center for Reconciliaition to notify (the center) about a chemical weapons attack that could be staged to provide footage for a foreign TV channel," the statement reads. "The caller said that earlier on February 12, Jabhat al-Nusra members travelling in three cars had brought more than 20 chlorine gas cylinders and personal protective equipment to Serakab," the Center added.

"According to the caller, members of the local While Helmets branch wore personal protective equipment while rehearsing first aid provision to civilians suffering from chemical poisoning," the Russian Center said.
"The caller pointed out that all the proceedings had been filmed by professional reporters who used a mic with the CNN logo, while commenting on the actions being taken by the White Helmets," the statement said, adding that in between takes, the reporters had consulted with some people over a satellite telephone in English.

The White Helmets are a mostly British funded propaganda organization embedded with Hayat Tahreer Al-Sham, the current incarnation of al-Qaeda in Syria which rules Idleb governorate. The head of al-Qaeda in Syria, Abu Jaber Al-Sheikh, lauded (video, alternative) the White Helmets as the "hidden soldiers of our revolution".

CNN is currently embedded with al-Qaeda and is producing White Helmets propaganda in Idleb governorate:

CNN Today‏ @cnntoday - 12:23 AM - 14 Feb 2018
EXCLUSIVE report from @arwaCNN in #Idlib Syria and @holmescnn has #TheBreakdown on more fighting in #Ghouta #Afrin #DeirEzzor

The Russian warning is not the only sign that another fake chemical weapon attack is coming up.

The Israeli government is pushing "top secret" disinformation into the public which preemptively blames the Syrian government for any upcoming incident. It is also attempts to influence foreign governments on the issue:

According to a "Top secret" cable sent to Israeli ambassadors earlier this week, Israel fears that the Assad regime will use the chemical weapons it still has left in a way which might spill over to Israeli territory. The contents of the cable were shared with me by senior Israeli officials.
[T]he strategic division in the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs sent the 'Top Secret" cable to 15 Israeli embassies around the world, including in Washington.
One of the more unusual instructions in the cable was to pass a strong message regarding the Israeli concern that the chemical weapons left at the disposal of the Assad regime might be used against rebel forces ...

On Tuesday the White Helmets were again trying to get more foreign powers involved in fighting the Syrian government:

France should stop talking about red lines and focus on real action to persuade the main actors in Syria’s conflict to agree a ceasefire, [Abdulrahman Almawwas], the vice-president of the Syria Civil Defence, or “White Helmets”, said on Tuesday.
Speaking after meeting senior French officials, including Macron’s chief diplomatic adviser, Almawwas said France needed to put pressure on the main protagonists, such as pushing for a no-fly zone, even though he acknowledged France had few options.

Only hours after Abdulrahman Almawwas spoke with Macron’s chief diplomatic adviser, the French president issued a statement which set up a 'red line' trap:

“On chemical weapons, I set a red line and I reaffirm that red line,” Macron told reporters. “If we have proven evidence that chemical weapons proscribed in treaties are used, we will strike the place where they are made.”

“Today, our agencies, our armed forces have not established that chemical weapons, as set out in treaties, have been used against the civilian population.”

Setting red lines is a trap for oneself as it includes an invitation to others to break them. Anyone can release 'chemical weapons' in insurgent controlled areas in Syria and blame the Syrian government - thus potentially triggering the French 'red line'. So far though France has "not established" that a real chemical weapon incident ever happened. Of note in Macron's statement was also the threat to strike at "the place where they are made". That place would likely be outside of Syria. The French Foreign Ministry noted Macorn's inconvenient choice of words, intervened and today "clarified" his remarks:

France's foreign minister on Wednesday sought to clarify his government's position on the use of chemical weapons in Syria saying that Paris would only strike if the attacks were lethal and carried out by government forces.
"(The president) confirmed that he would proceed to military strikes against regime installations if there was a new use of chemical weapons by Bashar al-Assad's forces when these attacks are lethal and regime's responsibility is proven," Jean-Yves Le Drian told lawmakers.

Al-Qaeda will have no problem to create a "lethal" chemical weapon attack. They have killed ten-thousands of Syrian without any remorse. To "prove" that the Syrian government did it will be the task of the White Helmets and its CNN and Atlantic Council collaborators.

Chlorine though will not do.

Source: Chlorine - Properties (vid) - bigger

In their last attempt to smear the Syrian government for using 'chemical weapons' those organizations hyped the remains of a few 107mmm rockets which allegedly carried chlorine gas and were fired against the Takfiri held areas of east-Ghouta. (Unmentioned were the thousands of grenades fired by east-Ghouta Takfiris against civilians in Damascus.)

If those rockets had held chlorine they would have had no effect on anyone.

Chlorine gas is hardly ever deadly. It is 2.5 times heavier than air with a distinct yellow-green color and a strong bleach odor. Chlorine gas will only kill those submerged in a high concentration cloud. If one sees or smells it one simply walks away from the cloud and thereby stays safe. Chlorine was used as the first chemical weapon in World War I because it would creep downwards into deep enemy ditches. Even then it was soon found to be ineffective as a weapon and replaced with other chemicals.

That a few rockets with a few pounds of chlorine would have no 'lethal' effect is also obvious from official reports during the U.S. occupation of Iraq:

The first documented chlorine attack was Oct. 21, 2006, in Ramadi, a Multinational Force Iraq spokeswoman said. In that attack, terrorists drove a car bomb with 12 120 mm mortar shells and two 100-pound chlorine tanks. The attack wounded three Iraqi policemen and a civilian.

The first attack that received media attention was at Taji, where terrorists remotely detonated a 5-ton truck packed with 100 pounds of high explosives and two 1-ton chlorine tanks. The attack killed one civilian and wounded 114 others.
The most recent attack was June 3 against Forward Operating Base Warhorse, in Diyala province. Again, a suicide car bomber launched the attack, and officials estimate it included two tanks of chlorine and 1,000 pounds of explosive. The cloud from the attack blew over Warhorse and sickened 65 servicemembers, Multinational Force Iraq officials said. All were examined and returned to duty.
A Multinational Force Iraq spokesman said there are anecdotal reports that while the blasts from the attacks have killed, few have died solely from the gas. “We hear that an old man and some babies may have been killed, but we can’t pin that down,” the spokesman said.

If literally tons of chlorine were used in attacks in Iraq with no deadly effect how could a few pounds on top of some small rockets kill anyone?

On February 2 the U.S. Secretary of Defense Mattis acknowledge the practical uselessness of chlorine by putting it into a "separate category" than other chemical weapons. He also noted that he has no evidence of any such weapon use:

Q: Is there evidence of chlorine gas weapons used -- evidence of chlorine gas weapons?

SEC. MATTIS: I think that's, yes --

Q: No, I know, I heard you.

SEC. MATTIS: I think it's been used repeatedly. And that's, as you know, a somewhat separate category, which is why I broke out the sarin as another -- yeah.

Q: So there's credible evidence out there that both sarin and chlorine --

SEC. MATTIS: No, I have not got the evidence, not specifically. I don't have the evidence.

What I'm saying is that other -- that groups on the ground, NGOs, fighters on the ground have said that sarin has been used. So we are looking for evidence. I don't have evidence, credible or uncredible.

NGOs and "fighters on the ground" claimed to have evidence of chemical weapon attacks. But just like the French agencies and armed forces Macron mentioned, Mattis and the DoD have none.

The Takfiris of al-Qaeda, the White Helmets propaganda shop and its media acolytes may well prepare, as the Russians report, another fake chemical attack stunt. The Israeli government is busy preparing the public relations ground. But the French government, having trapped itself with 'red line' nonsense, then set the mark higher at 'lethal' attacks.

Chlorine is, as shown above, hardly ever lethal. But al-Qaeda will have no qualms about coming up with a few corpses to prove the 'lethality' of a fake incident.

We also have seen how, with some outside help, a harmless chlorine release can be faked in an allegedly deadly sarin attack. Such happened in April 2017 in the Khan Sheikhun incident.

Multiple early on-the-ground reports by local witnesses and Turkish officials spoke of chlorine release and chlorine affected patients. Only a day later were these claims turned into an alleged "sarin attack". Real evidence was never obtained from the al-Qaeda ruled grounds where that incident happened. A discredited investigation was inconclusive. It claimed some "sarin-like substance" may have been involved but it could not even explain why more than 50 casualties of the claimed incident arrived at far away hospitals BEFORE it had happened at all:

The admission times of the [hospital] records range between 0600 and 1600 hours. Analysis of the aforementioned medical records revealed that in 57 cases, patients were admitted in five hospitals before the incident in Khan Shaykhun (at 0600, 0620 and 0640 hours).

One has to agree with Secretary of Defense Mattis on this - some corpses shown to CNN by "NGOs" and "fighters on the ground" are not real evidence. Neither are discredited investigations. If the al-Qaeda Takfiris and its supporters want to come up with some believable fake they must set their standard much higher.

Posted by b on February 15, 2018 at 16:35 UTC | Permalink

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It seems that the falling out between Erdogan and Gulen occurred soon after it became clear that evidence against prominent secularists (especially military officers) was concocted. But was in really a falling out? To save himself, Erdogan blamed a corrupt judiciary claiming that they were Gulenists but he did conduct a wholesale purge of Gulenists in 2013.

Erdogan needed another scapegoat after his power was threatened by Russian trade sanctions following the downing of a Russian warplane. As it so happened, US also needed to distance themselves from the Turks so as to cozy up to the Kurds.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 20 2018 3:51 utc | 101

Correction: he did NOT conduct a wholesale purge

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 20 2018 3:52 utc | 102

james 99
Just recently, a good friend traveled to Italy to see where his parents grew up and lived before moving to Australia. Months before the trip, both he and his wife took lessons in Italian. By the time they were ready to leave he had forgotten all he had learned, but his wife who not of Italian descent and unlike him had not spoken Italian as a child remembered the language perfectly. Memory for words is just a gift some have and some don't.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 20 2018 5:09 utc | 103

Dear Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 7:16:50 PM | 97

"Not just an ordinary guy by any means. Going by the last - sounds like his job is to infiltrate anywhere targeted by AKP/Erdogan."

Sounds like you are Jerry Fletcher #2, Conspiracy Theory.

Would you like to remain sceptical forever or would you rather put me on an online lie detector or something to sort this issue out once and for all? I'm up for anything.

Look, if the honest excerpts from my past make you alarmed, then I think you'll move up to level JF#1 if I tell you about the other things up my sleeve.

I'm, or at least am trying to be, an ethical person. I don't know you and most likely that I will never ever see you in person in my life. For me, it is one of the most heinous acts of all lying to the other party under such conditions. Because can you imagine, I'm an 'inflitrator' 'here' lying to you to achieve what? It's my 'job'? I want to save Erdogan? His party? By deceiving 1-2 guys online through actual conversations with my personal involvement in them rather than me addressing to a wider audience via, say, blogs, websites, some popular social media accounts (especially if I am regarded as a 'top end cyber warrior serving up high class disinformation')...??

It just doesn't add up. IMHO.

I could ignore your accusations but obviously I feel, not offended, but perhaps am feeling a wee bit uneasy, because your incessant 'suspicions' are a barrier to the conversation (I'm a communicative person) and that we cannot move on. I comment here when I notice there are missing links in someone's thoughts and I step in attempting to join the dots just like everybody else.

I'm an 'inflitrator' a 'top end cyber warrior' but I'm too stupid to know there are intelligent readers here especially on MoA? Even Putin got caught out but at least he can defend himself as he studied law apparently after he was told so by somebody when he went to the KGB HQs to join in. I didn't study law but I'm confident I can walk free out of any court of yours simply because I'm not guilty.

Hey, Peter, why don't you take it for granted that I am not affiliated with any political party or group or whatsoever and that I have no hidden agenda and no alterior motive? If you like spending your time tossing around then do it once or twice to see if some of the info or views I provide will fall through or NOT.

If you want to know what real inflitration is all about then look at this: I wear The North Face boots, Levi's jeans, Tag Heuer watch, I use whatsapp and gmail, I write in English, I order from Domino's pizza occasionaly, I had 2-3 Tuborg beers yesterday... You inflitrated into my turf not vice versa. LOL.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 20 2018 10:06 utc | 104

ConfusedPundit thank you for your contributions to the dialogue and the insights you give from the Turkish perspective.

I for once don't believe you are an "infiltrator" of any sort and would like you to continue use your honest opinions on the matters.

The reason you are being "attacked" is because people outside the region of the Eastern Mediterranean have no idea about Turkey and it's people. To them it is unthinkable that the VAST MAJORITY of the population in Turkey (both government and opposition voters) support the policies of Turkey and Erdogan on CERTAIN issues.

What are these certain issues ?

1. The Kurdish question

2. Turkey's imperialism

Both of these policies were in full force in Turkey long before AKP and Erdogan and will continue long after he and his party are gone.

To give two examples: the internal war against the Kurds has been going on in Turkey for over 40 years and the illegal invasion and occupation of Cyprus happened in 1974, both events long before AKP and Erdogan.

Turkish society first and foremost is extremely nationalistic and Islam was and is used in Turkey only as a vehicle to advance the two above-mentioned goals.

To many of you who are not from this region this might seem as a shocking eye-opener but for the rest of us it is a well understood fact.

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 20 2018 12:13 utc | 105

Dear james | Feb 19, 2018 10:00:51 PM | 99

Thank you. If I don't get obstructed by false accusations and by some F words, I believe I can continue 'bringing a different perspective to the conversation'. If for example Jack had listened to me, he wouldn't have jumped into such early conclusions that the OpOlive is a 'fiasco' on Erdogan's part.

I'm not here to win the game of one-upmanship though. I just like MoA and in my humble opinion, it's better than many similar places. Since MoA allows interactivity I post my views when I notice occasional discrepancies between what is happening here and what's written in the articles + comments. Me having an agenda of putting a positive spin on Erdogan? On MoA? If I write fake testimonials on e-commerce sites I might have results but on MoA? Well maybe it's possible but that sort of thing isn't my cup of tea on principle. Yet, look what I have to put up with: 'liar, troll, Erdogan apologist, top end cyber warrior...'

I should bang my head against the wall to see if eventually I will become one.

Enough with self-defence. I'd better go back to subject related posts.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 20 2018 12:26 utc | 106

@ ConfusedPundit with a question

I have been following your participation in MoA bar talk and commend you for your use of English.

I am a one note drum here at MoA suggesting to all that the core of our problem is with allowing private finance instead of it being a public utility. I don't agree with usury and think that the ongoing ownership of private property should be limited.

I think changing those core elements of our social contract would totally change the base motivations from God of Mammon to humanism. I am curious if you and your fellow citizens of Turkey would agree with this view of the world and be interested in working with other nations to effect those changes?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 20 2018 16:06 utc | 107

@103 peter.. "Memory for words is just a gift some have and some don't." - that is true to a good extent as well... don't you think though, that it is a reaching out beyond one's culture to learn a different language that is not your first cultures language?

@106 confused pundit.. thanks!! stick around and continue to participate... you bring a special insight that is beneficial to others here as i see it.... and, for the record - i still think erdogan is bad news for turkey, but we are going to agree to disagree on this one!

Posted by: james | Feb 20 2018 17:08 utc | 108

Confused Pundit, Red Rooster

That most people support a dictator is almost a truism.

I am guilty of not accepting at face value what Leaders and countries engaged in conflict say and do. I place more weight on their past actions and abiding interests.

We can all learn from sharing assumptions and testable hypotheses. MoA commenters believed that Assad had triumphed when Obama didn’t bomb Syria. Instead, We saw the rise of ISIS. Then many MoA commentators cheered the entry of Russia and Iran into the conflict, believing once again that the ’Assad must go’ Coalition’s defeat was inevitable. But US, Turkey, Israel, etc. have shown a determination to remain.

Turkey has a pivotal role and the apparent coup attempt was a pivotal moment in the conflict. I simply ask: cui bono? And that leads me to the hypothesis that US and Turkey will reconcile. Then I see Tillerson say that there is “no light” between Turkey and USA on their goals for Turkey. This is the strongest possible language.

What does “no light” mean in practice? IMO it means the return of refugees to ‘safe zones’ controlled by the ’Assad must go Coalition and ultimately winning a UN-administered vote. It means harassing attacks on Assad-allies forces and other acts of destablizaion (like refusing to help with reconstruction costs) So as to ‘guide’ Syrians to see “the Assad Regime” as a poverty-stricken lost cause.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 20 2018 17:13 utc | 109

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 20, 2018 12:13:24 PM | 109

Not supporting a dictator and not supporting all of his policies are two different things.

On the issues of how to handle the Kurds and Turkey's imperialism even those not supporting Erdogan agree with him on his policies concerning these two issues.

If you want my honest prediction on what Turkey's plans for North Syria are, it is the following:

Ethnic cleansing of all Kurds, repopulation with "Assad must go" Syrian refugees currently residing in Turkey, creation of an turkish, anti-Iranian puppet state called the "North Syrian Republic". A Cyprus 2.0 scenario.

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 20 2018 17:43 utc | 110

@109 jr... those are my concerns here as well... and i think @110 redroosters comment - cyprus 2.0 scenario is very possible..

an alternative viewpoint can be had a few ways..
1) - someone assassinates erdogan.. this is possible.. i am not sure the outcome..
2) -something unpredicted takes place between any of the main players here and leads to an unforeseen development and new direction...

number 2 has high odds as i see it.. 1 - not so much...

Posted by: james | Feb 20 2018 18:32 utc | 111

Although I do not believe the reasons you put up in the first couple of threads for commenting here, I will leave it rest.

I see Syrian NDF has moved into Afrin. From what Erdogan said the other day, it seems that even if the Kurd's give over full control of Afrin to the Syrian government, Turkey will keep attacking. So you have the US looking at breaking up Turkey using the Kurds, but at the same time, Turkey is trying to grab chunks of Syria. Idlib and northern Aleppo area.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 21 2018 0:14 utc | 112

Peter AU

I’m not sure what the Syrian-Kurd agreement is at this point. Confused Pundit was right when he said that Syrian poxies (like Hez) would enter Afrin. But I’ve also seen reports that the SAA would be stationed at the border. That would mean SAA facing/ blocking TAF while Turk and Syrian proxies battle for Afrin.

I think it’s instructive to recall how we got here . AFAICT, this is how it has played out:

1) Mattis/Tillerson ‘triggered’ Erdogan by talking about a training of a Kurdish “border force”.

2) Erdogan’s criticized this training and the US side responded with weak assurances.

3) Erdogan was furious (we are to believe) and sendt high-ranking envoys to Russia to demand permission to attack Afrin. Despite the problems that Turkey’s attack would cause for the up-coming Sochi talks, Russia reluctantly agreed to allow Turkey to proceed, but . . .

4) Russia tried to reason with the Kurds of Afrin before the attack - but they refused to be disarmed.

5) Turkey and her FSA proxies attacked Afrin. The Turkish incursion was geographicall limited but Turkey gave air support to their proxies.

6) Kurds decline to go to Sochi saying that Russia allowed Turkey to attack Afrin.

7) Turk FSA proxies downed a Russian warplane. The pilot killed himself rather than be taken.

8) Russian attacks FSA ‘rebels’ in retaliation and SAA allows Kurds to reinforce Afrin.

9) Turkey continues the attack and Kurds make a deal with Assad for SAA and Syrian proxies to defend Afrin.

How can we not see this as a self-goal by Erdogan? He managed to piss off virtually every party to the conflict - unless the whole episode had been arranged for by USA and the Turks AND AfrinKurds turning to Assad for gel was unexpected.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 21 2018 3:12 utc | 113

Correction: gel = help

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 21 2018 3:15 utc | 114

Jackrabbit 113
NDF is Syrian militia's organised and paid by Syria. A reserve force of volunteers. I believe Iran helped in setting it up and and an Iranian may be overall commander. Each militia unit made up of volunteers from the same area of Syria. From what I read, some foreigners have joined these units. Most Shia/Alawai but one militia from Aleppo Sunni. I have read that the unit from Aleppo went to Afrin, but I guess just which units went to Afrin will become clearer in the future.

On Erdogan shooting himself in the foot - I tend to think he is an independent player rather than still in cahoots with the US. He will never be an ally of US nor Russia, just what is convenient at the time.
His voter/support base want to kick the US out of turkey which means they should be working somewhat with Syria Russia Iran, yet here's Erdo and his supporters trying to grab chunks of Syria - though I can't see Russia allowing them to hold onto it once the US is kicked out and other pockets of jihadists cleaned up.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 21 2018 3:43 utc | 115

Peter AU1

Thank for the info about NDF.

The ’Assad must go!’ Coalition needs space in NW Syria to resettle refugees. With that understanding, it becomes clear that USA and Turkey are working on the same goals but doing so as pretended enemies.

Confused Pundits remarks about Afrin and Manjib being Arab (not Kurd) also become understandable as more than just sectarianism. The sectarianism is an excuse for the practical need to grab these areas for resettlement.

Your belief that Erdogan is an independent operator is a carefully cultivated consensus. However, IMO Erdogan is “independently” working to further the ’Assad must go!’ Agenda. A less cynical guy might say that Erdogan’s actions result from a calculation of what will most benefit Erdogan but such a view seems almost naive to me.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 21 2018 4:34 utc | 116

hey guys - thought i would share this comment from a poster at sst that i think has a good read on things regarding afrin and area..

Bandolero said in reply to JPB...


While it's true that Nubl and Zahraa are predominently Shia towns, there are no known big settlements of Shia in the Afrin district. However, the people of Nubl and Zahraa faught off a siege by Turkish backed jihadi forces from 2013 to 2016. And see what Wikipedia says about that, quote begin:

"Over the following years, the only land route that brought some food and essential goods came from the Kurdish-held town of Afrin, to the north."

So the people of Nubl and Zahraa are very thankful to the people of Afrin to have helped them in the most dire moments of their history. And now people in Afrin are in their most dire moments of history, because people in Afrin are under a similar Turkish backed jihadi attack they endured for years until they were victorious, and people of Nubl and Zahraa are trying to be thankful. So, what today happened was that popular forces, or people of Nubl and Zahraa, went to Afrin people to help them deal with Turkish backed jihadis, thanking them for what they did.

Of course, the people of Nubl and Zahraa have quite some experience of how to deal with jihadis. And the people of Nubl and Zahraa have some quite capable friends, who helped them survive a Turkish backed jihadi assault, which I would describe as people who like Hassan Nasrallah, and a force, what is generally described as a Palestinian militia called the Quds brigade, what seems to me to be an especially capable force. However, Turkish media seem to like to call the people of Nubl and Zahraa and their friends as "Shiite militias" like here:

While some of Turkish media seem to have pulled their "Shiite militia" claims today Hassan Rouhani, whom I would also count as one of big friends of Palestinians, had last night a telephone conversation with Turkish president Erdogan. As can be seen from Iranian media, from the Iranian point of view the implentation of the Astana agreement seems to go quite well:

From my point of view, the most likely scenario for Afrin is that there will be a ceasefire where Turkey gets something like a buffer zone, while the rest of the Afrin district will be controlled by the YPG in cooperation with "Lebanese" and "Palestinian" forces."

Posted by: james | Feb 21 2018 4:38 utc | 117

check 42 comments on this thread..

Posted by: james | Feb 21 2018 4:39 utc | 118

42 is a comment from bandolero... check that comment out.. i think it is pretty close on the money..

Posted by: james | Feb 21 2018 4:40 utc | 119

Maybe I should be more clear. US-Turk collusion is the profit-maximizing strategy for both as they need each other to ‘win’ in Syria.

Also note, for the record: I don’t have any direct evidence of US-Turk collusion but I think that it helps to explain certain actions and events. I think there’s a high chance that I’m right about the collusion despite having been wrong about how I thought it would play out. Confused Pundit was right that Erdogan would seek to actually take Afrin but IMO wrong about Erdogan’s ultimate motive for doing so.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 21 2018 5:07 utc | 120

Thanks james. I hadn't read that comment.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 21 2018 5:21 utc | 121

Magnier also say it was the militias from Nub’ul and Zahra that went to Afrin.

Magnier's take on the Russia/US battle in Syria. us-russia-struggle-and-turkey-is-part-of-it/

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 21 2018 7:21 utc | 122

French MSM busy with the (silly) figure of 400,000 in the Ghouta has been focusing on it crescendo. They do mention very quickly afterwards that in Afrin the Syrian troops have been asked to come by the YPG but don't give the beginning of an information on the former US/YPG alliance...

Posted by: Mina | Feb 21 2018 9:28 utc | 123

@122 Shia militias helping Kurds fight Turks to protect Syria.

This must be putting an enormous strain on the kind of mind that likes to see things in terms of good guys and bad guys.

Posted by: dh | Feb 21 2018 13:36 utc | 124

Dear redrooster, your description @ 105 sounds very familiar to me. It looks like a nofilter instashot of Turkey.

Dear Jack, Peter, James, dh, Mina,

(James, the president is Erdogan for the moment. I'd much prefer Jean Paul Belmondo or even Mark Knopfler instead but we have to listen to the Erdogan's solo these days. What can I do?)

The below are not necessarily my own views unless stated otherwise. I'm trying to convey the general feeling of the people.

The locals' mindset:

We have have a murderee lying on the floor. The murderer is not the bullet. It's not the AK-47. It's not the Kurd who pulled the trigger. It's not the US-EU backers. It's the guys who have the most say in those countries. So the local Jane and Joe can keep saying we are American citizens, it's our country, Je Suis Charlie etc. but nobody sees it that way in my neighborhood.

There is no such thing as 'the U.S.A.' from a local's point of view. There is the guys who make the policies in the USA. Those who make the policies are those who control the finance capital in the 'U.S.A.'. And their pictures and names are circulated on TVs here.

We have no such thing as the Kurdish Question. Our problem has nothing to do with democracy. Erdogan is not the issue. We are under attack. We have to prevail no matter what. WW3? So be it.

1) The problem is about the regional energy sources (who owns the money made out of energy projects in the EU+US?) and land (who wants the land?). If you won't comply with the agreements signed after the WW1, then hands off, it is my oil fields and it is my land.

2) The U.S.A. (a tool) and France (another tool) and Israel will soon attack Syria. Israel will grab a huge portion of the Syrian territory for 'security purposes.' US+France+Israel are sending relevant signals every day.

3) Every U.S. base in Syria has high ranking Israeli observers, experts. No such thing as the U.S.A. exists. It is actually called the U.S.I. You can name it whatever you like but here perception is the reality.

4) May is not happy with it. The FM Rudd stresses support for Lebanon's stability (a message to Trump and Israel) May goes to China (a 100% globalist controlled entity), May is happy to be pally with Turks.

5) Yesterday we witnessed a weird development south of Afrin. (US taxpayer-backed YPG and Hezbollah + IRGC waved flags together) The result? Bad PR of once heroic Hezbollah (shia but they fought against and beat Israel!) in Turkey. Iran, Assad, Putin have all lost a lot of PR points in Turkey. Iran has two separate heads: the IRGC and Rouhani. Anybody touches the PKK will forget about shaking hands with the Turks. Who benefits from the Assad Must Stay! block's loss of face in Turkey? It's indeed very difficult for Erdogan to navigate through these waters. It's like playing chess against 10000 Big Blues.

(In one of my earlier posts, I wrote about it after I saw a tiny hint regarding Iran's intentions. I saw it coming and said that Iran wanted it's share in Afrin and what happened? They staged a show yesterday. TAF dropped a few bombs in front of them and off they went back to Nubbul and Zahra. But who is the mastermind behind it? Iran? Syria? Russia? Or maybe not.)

6) Pls refer to redrooster's post @ 105 as a template for Turkish stance in the issue. To me it's like an up-to-date Garmin GPS map. Turkey is not simply a UN member country any longer. Turks have been under attack to this day non-stop since the end of the WW1. It used to be a dormant volcano but it's currently spewing ash. You fiddle with it too much and this is the result you get: Erdogan says 'The Giant has awoken.' a week ago. Can the U.S.A. calm the Turks down? No. Why not? Because the U.S.A = U.S.I. The USA has now even less credibility in Turkey than a crooked beach vendor selling fake perfumes. Let's mend ties. But with whom, the USA or USI?

a) 1960 military coup
b) 1971 military coup
c) Cyprus war.
d) After the Cyprus war till 1980 there was a NATO Gladio organized civil war in Turkey.
e) The coup ends it. (The US said 'our boys did it!')
f) Right after the coup Asala kills 40 Turkish diplomats around the world. Turks kill their leaders and Asala is no more.
g) PKK is on the stage.
h) PKK is almost dead early 90s.
i) Huge economic crisis
k) Marmara Earthquake (some even had far-fetched (?) claims that it was an EMP attack triggered by the Israeli and US ships located near the epicenter)
l) 2001 suddenly a lot of dollars travel abroad and a huge economic crisis follows.
m) 2002 Erdogan wins the elections
n) Gulenists move in close. They are mushrooming. Simultaneously, the PKK is flourishing.
o) 2010 the US+EU and some people (seen as their agents) in the country want Erdogan out.
p) Erdogan resists.
r) 2013 Taksim, Gezi riots, almost 32m out of 75m are out in the streets protesting.
s) Erdogan resists - Dictator Erdogan
t) 2016 coup attempt - Dictator Erdogan
u) 2017 Op Euphrates Shield - Dictator Erdogan is massacring innocent Kurds (3000 dead daesh members)
v) 2018 Op Olive Branch - Dictator Erdogan is massacring innocent YPG (PKK/PYD/YPJ/KCK/Antifa/...)
x) 2019 Op Turkish Coffee Manbij?? Wait, we the United State of America.... Hey, it's not the U.S.A, so no excuse is accepted. Please pack up and leave. You are a mercenary unit, you have a war cabinet, you are here on behalf of the Israelis. You are robbing the stagecoach in the region.
y) 2020 WW3 ?
z) <- ?

And what about the current situation?
The USI is still accommodating Gulen. He is an active shooter. Gulenists are constantly attacking Erdogan.
The USI is in Syria and N Iraq. PKK-Barzani are still getting help. An active shooter.

Tillerson can come and go but he will play computer games in single player mode. Turks don't want multiplayer games in his team anymore. No way. Even if they may appear to be interested, it's to steal his mouse, smash his keyboard on his head in the first opportunity they get. No more friendship until the USA gets bastilled by it's real people.

The Ottoman Empire is no more but Turkey wasn't left in peace either. So the Turks have decided to confront the issue in a more traditional way: No more burying of the hachet. Now what? Topple Erdogan and hope that 'our boys' grab his seat?

Turkish President Prepares Military For War With Israel

I hope what I wrote above makes any sense to you. You may have different views but I'll have to repeat the above piece because it's looks like the general perception and it feels tangible and therefore it is the only accepted reality people talk about in the country.


Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 21 2018 15:58 utc | 125

@122 peter.. thanks for magniers post... it's a good overview of where we are now...

@125 confused pundit.. thanks for your comments.. i don't think anyone on the board here at moa questions the allegiance of the usa and israel, or usi as you say! that is a given and i think those who see the usa as not really belonging to the people of the usa - that is a good way to frame it too.. as for the kurds... yes - israel and usa want to use the kurds as a means of dividing up syria.. they don't really give a shit about the kurds, but they are a useful tool for there own agenda is for all intensive purposes is clearly malevolent..

i am curious if the ordinary turkish person was given the choice between usa/european union or russia - what would it be?

mark knopfler for president of turkey? sultans of swing it is!!

Posted by: james | Feb 21 2018 17:19 utc | 126

ConfusedPundit 125

The perceived reality in Turkey, or at least among Erdogan supporters, that everyone is their enemy and all must be fought at the same time (which is what you are describing), will be their undoing.
There seems to be a reasonable amount of distrust in Iran towards Russia, as seen by the problems that arose when it was made public that Russia was refueling strategic bombers there, but they can work with Russia to fight the US/CIA/Israel/Wahabbi's. Shia Iran seems willing to work with Turkey in defeating the US, but the perceived reality in Turkey is that this is a territorial grab by Iran.
It is like the Turks are running around beating out very minor or non existent grass fires while their house is burning down.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 21 2018 18:34 utc | 127

Dear james | Feb 21, 2018 12:19:08 PM | 126

Could an ordinary Turk make a decision at this moment?

USA ? Turks feel totally betrayed. Right until the coup attempt it was like, we know the USA is responsible for all our troubles but Hollywood, fast food, they give us fighter jets, NATO ally, superpower, NASA, great country... But the coup attempt was a real eye opener. Hang on a sec, these guys are serious, they are going to eat us sooner or later. USA? It's contaminated. It's USI = Hostile nation. Mend ties? Not possible, they are not to be trusted ever again. Let's stand our ground, the USA will have it's own troubles soon.

The EU? Germany? Same as the USA, same politics, they support the PKK and Gulenists. Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung, H. Böll Stiftung too much fiddling with Turkish affairs. Germans = Fascists. They exert to much political pressure on us. In fact there is political pressure daily and nothing else much. The EU in general? Turks wait more than 50 years at their doors. It's enough. The balance sheet so far? Red. OK, let's stand our ground. They'll soon get at each other's throat. So no more EU.

Russia? Our neighbour which is a good thing but they are considered to be unreliable. They helped found the first Kurdish state, Mahabad. They are still friendly with them. Pan-regional politics with Russia, Iran etc? Fantastic idea but, how? Still, I can see a lot effort towards some sort of TR-Rus-Ir allience. It's a hype. Yet, since the Tillerson's visit, the govt. sycophants tend to favor the USA for some reason. There is some change in the air and then we get Hezbollah kids in Afrin.

Basically, all the girls in the village are ugly. But the Russians are luring the Turks with a smile, half of Iran's population is of Turkish descent. I like Putin too. There are Turkic countries in the Rus federation and around it. If you think the Turks are 'extremely nationlistic' as Redrooster put it, then you know how to use it to your benefit. The Russians, or maybe Putin in person, had a go at it by having a chat with a potential future leader of the nationalist party. He is jafari so he is close to the sunnis, but to Iran's shia at the same time. Putin had things in his mind obviously. However MHP ostracized him. The project's fallen through? Meanwhile, Gulen put on a Turkic hat a few weeks ago. A message to the Turks? Don't expect any help from Eurasia? Gulenists (CIA) are very influential in Turkic countries. One of them is totally infested with them.

If you'll ask me, US-Rus both great people, we can all be friends and live happily after. I like the Brits. The French, Italians, Danes, Greeks, no problem for me. I'm sure most Turks feel the same. But it's the politics and now the political pendulum is away from the US and EU and it is swaying close to the regional allience. IMHO.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 21 2018 19:15 utc | 128

@128 confused pundit. it is hard not come away from your post without the impression that @127 peter has - everyone is turks enemy! that sounds like more erdogan talk if you ask me... at what point does turkey acknowledge they are a country surrounded by other countries and they need to be at peace with the other countries that are there neighbours? it seems the conflict with the kurds only got worse the past 5 years, somewhere around the same time that erdogan wanted to make war with syria...

so how does erdogan plan on living with a syria under assad leadership where assad is trying to honour the different cultures within it's borders which includes the kurds? better yet - how does erdogan plan on living with eastern turkey which contains so many kurds? it almost seems like a racist thing that turkey has towards the kurds.. like the kurds are the indigenous indians of north america, or the aboriginals of australia, or the black people of the usa... is this how turkish people view the kurds who live within turkey? i would hope not, but erdogan doesn't give me anything positive to see in his hostility towards all the kurdish people...

so, have i got that wrong? thanks..

Posted by: james | Feb 21 2018 19:31 utc | 129

Peter & James,

Not everybody is Turks' enemy. Nicolás Maduro was welcomed in Turkey. People love him. Putin is OK, a great guy. Also the Macedonian leader was here yesterday. Good guy. Turks now have 12 bases overseas. How can you say everyone is the enemies of Turks? Hungary is a friend. They kicked Soros in the face. Turks are friendly with the British these days. Hamas is superb. They are here all the time. Egypt is great. But it is now a dictatorship run by Mr. Sisi, he is not a dictator in the West. Erdogan is. America is an ally, they just attack Turkey and that's all, they just work with the PKK and the Gulenists and the Neocons against the Turks and that's all. The Turkish soldiers had to find the locations of their friends by tracing the smell of their blood because the Americans had refused to give the Turks any nightvisions while airdropping ammunitions to the PKK militants on the other side of the hill. Yes, that America is an enemy. Who else? Germany. Yes, a hostile country. They have US military build up there. They deserve to be a colony. I think the Turks should declare autonomy in Germany and if rejected they should start killing a few thousand Germans. Turks and British should apply sanctions on the Germans. There are demographic changes in the EU. North Africans should start burning Paris down. I should petition the Turkish govt to recognise the Algerian Genocide. Whites are diminishing in the USA. They won't hold the majority soon. I think it's about time the Turks send weapons to the Hispanics, Chinese and to the African Americans. Oops, I guess gun ownership is legal in the USA! Who else? Kurds? No, the PKK. There are thousands of Kurds in Turkey fighting against the PKK. Erdogan's party is full of Kurds dropping bombs on PKK. If all Kurds (different peoples ethnically, culturally, linguistically) decide to attack Turkey all at once then yes perhaps all Kurds will be their enemy. Why not? Or perhaps a velvet revolution is better, for Kurds, Corsicans, Catalans, Californians, American Natives, Ainus, Okinawans... all at the same time. I'm joking. It's a mess.

The Assad situation? I don't know how that willun fold. I guess US+France+Israel attack is imminent. Look what's happening in East Ghouta. The Lebanese Parliament spox said today that their enemy is not Iran, but Israel. Israel thinks everybody is their friends. Except Iran and Palestinians.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 21 2018 21:16 utc | 130

US+France+Israel attack is imminent? They are like barking dogs trying to build up courage to tackle a bear. Sooner or later they may try.
China is reliant on importing raw materials by sea. Pentagon think tank Rand Corp who supposedly "think" out scenarios for the US military, believe that the US can blockade China by sea, keeping the war conventional, and this will force China to capitulate to US dominance. They think China will give up their sovereignty before resorting to nuclear weapons.
Many in the US also seem to think that if the US destroys the Russian forces in Syria - which is what they would have to do to attack Syria- that Russia will back down.
At that point Russia would most likely believe that all out war with US is inevitable at some point unless they eventually capitulate to the US and give up their sovereignty. Putin believes that once a fight is inevitable, strike first.

The USI? Who controls it, CIA, Israel, Money? US dollar and US Military are its power. Destroy the dollar and all collapses. It is the hegemon and no other problems can be fully resolved until the hegemon is destroyed. Because the US dollar and US military are its power, I just call it the US.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 22 2018 1:16 utc | 131

@130 confused pundit... that was just my impression based on your comments - but okay - turkey has some friends!! good! i know erdogan was friends with morsi prior to him being disposed of and replaced with the dictator sisi... yes - that is how i see him too.. it is interesting to me, so i am going to ask... what is the connection with erdogan / turkey and the muslim brotherhood? you see - some countries like russia, syria, saudi arabia, uae and a few others view the muslim brotherhood as a terrorist organization.. what is interesting is the connection between turkey and qatar here, as you will recall how when qatar was ostracized from saudi arabia, turkey quickly came to it's rescue.. the ideology is one of sunni islamism.. i do believe that is what erdogan is promoting too correct?

here is an interesting article from nov 2017 Egypt’s New Enemies: Turkey, Qatar and the Muslim Brotherhood?

ever since 9-11 - terrorist and who gets to label who a terrorist has been interesting to watch... it would appear turkey under erdogan is very much like the usa in wanting to tell the world who they think is a terrorist, or not.. the only problem is, not all countries agree on who is or isn't a terrorist! in fact - some of those moderate headchoppers in idlib - who are a part of the free syrian army, or the turkish free syrian army - tfsa - seem like terrorists to some, but not to others.. isn't that interesting?

here is an interesting article involving turkey and egypt from 2 days ago.. Turkish-Egyptian war of words in eastern Mediterranean
heats up
and another one from today! Cairo removes Ottoman name amid Egypt-Turkey strife

now, maybe it is all the free money egypt gets from the usa, in order to keep israel happy, which is a part of this.. i wouldn't be surprised.. i know how important looking after israel is to the usa..

but, i would like to know what you think about erdogan having some strong connection with the muslim brotherhood, seeing as they are wanting to push sunni islamism? or, is that just a mirage that i am imagining? thanks~!

confused pundit quote "Look what's happening in East Ghouta." i am glad you brought that up!!! i did read how it was presented in the daily sabah today.. it is almost like they could have taken heather nauerts script from yesterday at the usa daily press briefing and just read it straight from her lips.. here is a copy of that..

you see, if i can't distinguish between what the usa propaganda outlet is saying on ghouta and what the daily sabah is saying, what does that say about the level of impartiality, or objectivity in it all? it basically tells me what i have been saying to you all along here... the turkish media is not a good way to learn about what is going on in the world, unless you want a skewed interpretation of it... now, i am not surprised that both the usa and turkey were hell bent on getting rid of assad, but i would hope if you were trying to be somewhat objective here, you would reconsider just how problematic it is for the ordinary turk to take at face value what is being said in the daily sabah!! why, you may as well get your info from cnn, or the bbc, or even haaretz!!!! now, i just can't imagine you doing that.. but that is why you are at moa right? to get an alternative viewpoint LOLOL!

Posted by: james | Feb 22 2018 2:49 utc | 132

Something fishy about the Eastern Ghouta, the same guy who is on French MSM 24/7 as "from the area; in contact with people there; working for the Syrian-American medical society" speaks of functioning and non-functioning hospitals, of the number of patients with chronical diseases and those with kidney insufficiency and keeps on enumerating statistics... not very much like what one would expect. The Syrian revo scared me as entering a "peter and the wolf" scheme from day one.

Posted by: Mina | Feb 22 2018 9:40 utc | 134

Peter AU 1 @131

Dollar will be destroyed. Trump wants to preserve the 20th century USA (make America great again)
But the 21th century is about digital money, bitnation, transhumanism, lgbt, logistic cities, smart cities, mega cities, robotic marriages, AI, Human 2.0 etc. Those who control finance capital made the money in the 20th century and they now want to move on to something else. Trump will lose. Dollar (Trump) cannot prevail.

The USI has been successful in pulling Turkey out of the Rus-Ir-Assad orbit. Well, they stopped bleeding at least. Hundreds of Rus soldiers were killed by the USI, Rus-Ir-Sr block annoyed the Turks with fake news (RT-Sana: TAF is using chemical weapons), Shia militia tried to enter Afrin, there are massive civilian casualties in East Ghouta as in Aleppo, and all coincide with Tillerson's visit. Erdogan guys have shut up. There was some anti-US and 'talk to Assad' block in the opposition who also keeps quiet these days. There isn't any fierce anti-US sentiment in TR these days. Meanwhile the USI supports Gulenists and PKK. The USI seems to be trying to keep the Turks busy and divert their attention from the US held areas in North SR. Turks are contemplating another beachhead right in the middle of the so called Rojova. The USI presence in the region is very dangerous. It's make it or break it for both sides. Therefore I think the USI+France+Israel are trying to move in properly. France keeps talking about chemical weapons, Assad is killing civilians, Israeli jet was brought down. You need a few more or even just another excuse to pave the way for those guys to occupy SR soon.

James @132

I like Bobby Mueller's views. I think he's right. Mind your own business is the kind of thing I favor. Most Turks feel the same especially because there is too much intervention from the US+EU. But Erdogan showed too much interest in Egypt's affairs too. We were perplexed. Where is the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing? So a lot of Turks but most hardcore followers of Erdogan got confused. Erdogan is still using the Rabia sign but he modified it a bit and associates the sign with Mr. Hitler's ein volk ein reich propaganda line, only a little different, 'One Nation, One Flag, One Homeland, One State' a slogan he uses in every speech.

Erdogan's party is a splinter from Erbakan's party, their ideology is based on National View. Well, we are all the children of Abraham according to them but both Erdogan and now deceased Erbakan also hate Israel. I told you that the most ardent Turkists are also Jewish people. The Turkish nationalists also hate Israel too. It's a mess.

Erdogan's connection with Muslim Brotherhood is in a way OK, why is it a problem if there are Christian and Jewish brotherhoods? But, what's Erdogan's purpose, you want the whole world to repent and turn to Islam? Or you want to organise a resistance movement against the current bashing of Islam? For him, Islamic countries are either getting bombed or if they are rich they are simply the lapboys of the 'infidels'. There are men with interesting dressing sense in Vatican, Tehran, Tibet and Tel Aviv, so why can't we have our own? This is I think how he feels about the situation. The Islamists in Turkey want a flying carpet but Erdogan is more down to earth and he makes his own UAVs. One prominent religious guy said the other day that it's a good idea to go to sleep as soon as you lie on bed otherwise you start getting aroused by the duvet and that a man and a woman should not get in the elevator together because if it breaks down they'll have sexual intercourse. The public is infuriated now. Meanwhile, Erdogan's guys are testing Turkish engines on Turkish made UAVs today and they are also working on unmanned ACVs.

It's schizophrenia.

If he manages to change the political system in 2019, he'll be OK. He has a 'cause'. His followers see it as Islam and independence and maybe the revival of Ottoman Empire and the khaliphate? The Turkists read it as an opportunity to gain independence from the US+EU hegemony and also Turan Union will follow it?

Maybe you need a guy like Erdogan in the US or EU? He is better than most of the leaders in the West. The people in the west will wake up and begin to rule their own countries.

So how do you stop this guy? By showing him the PKK or Gulen cards? By calling him a Dictator? Sanctions? Civil unrest? War? By distracting him? He says 'the giant has awoken'. Do you think all is under control by the enemies of him and Turks and Islam? Syria is his and the Turkists' territory, it's part of the National Oath.

Mina @ 133

Erdogan is a very competative guy. You think you can antagonize him with those moves but you will make him thrive on them. He'll open the books which should remain on the bookshelves buried under dust.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 22 2018 12:07 utc | 135

thanks... another end to what i thought was a conversation...

Posted by: james | Feb 22 2018 17:06 utc | 136

how to brainwash turkish folks?

run a paper called the daily sabah..

Posted by: james | Feb 22 2018 17:29 utc | 137

Dear james | Feb 22, 2018 12:29:54 PM | 137

Until Erdogan's arrival there were some other people brainwashing Turkish folks.

Nobody in the EU complained about it.

Today, there is the Erdogan brainwashing the people
there is the anti-Erdogan brainwashing them and they are even more widespread than Erdogan's media. But strangely enough they don't get any criticism from you.
In short, brainwashing is all the rage here.

This one is the richest guy in Turkey, affiliated with the Ro-Ro brothers in the US+EU
He also indirectly owns the hurriyetdailynews. The owner is his step-uncle.

Next Generation Leader (if you buy into that)

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 22 2018 17:57 utc | 138

dear confused pundit... better have the conversation with bobby mueller... thanks..

Posted by: james | Feb 22 2018 18:05 utc | 139

Dear james,

Dutch parliament recognised the so called armenian genocide.
Talking about brainwashing, how do you see that?
A European country, a civilized country, modern society, there is democracy, freedom of everything...

Why act like spoilt brat then? Why do you lie to yur people? Why do you want to 'brainwash' your people?

Erdogan is a 'dictator', he is allowed, but how do you explain the Dutch move? What makes them so stressed up? I think the EU 'civilisation' is about to collapse! It can't go on like this.

Check out Lavrov's latest statements. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 22 2018 18:13 utc | 140

I see the Syrian government is moving in a lot more NDF groups from the areas close to Afrin. Russian troops at the crossing point into the Afrin enclave to prevent any more Turkish attacks. Erdogan's head chopping CIA backed freedom fighters in Idlib seem to have gone back to shooting each other.
MSM squealing like stuck pigs about Ghouta, even pulled in little bana from Aleppo who is now clocking up a lot of overtime plus employed a few more sweet little kids from Ghouta to give bana a hand. I guess the MSM can see the writing on the wall for their Ghouta headchoppers. Erdo's Turkey doesn't seem to pleased about it either.

So generally, things are looking good all round.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 22 2018 20:38 utc | 142

Russia's Reconciliation Center of the defense ministry reported on Thursday that Jeish al-Islam terrorists have closed a corridor near al-Wafedin camp, preventing the civilians from leaving the militant-held regions in Eastern Damascus...

Jaysh al-Islam

Sunni Islamism
Syrian nationalism (since 2017)

i am sure erdogan is not happy with this, which is why the daily sabah is in overdrive with the smokescreen to keep erdogan happy..

sunni islamism... sounds really friendly and all inclusive, lol... almost as inclusive as salafism...

Posted by: james | Feb 22 2018 21:41 utc | 143

and in related news - on Feb. 18 radical Islamist factions Nureddin Zengi Brigade and Ahrar al-Sham merged into the Syrian Liberation Front and were joined by half a dozen other HTS factions.

here is the daily sabah spin on it.. daily sabah refers to them as ''''two of the largest opposition groups in Syria'''..

however, a number of countries refer to them as a terrorist organization... of course, the usa doesn't refer to them as a terrorist organization, as they are going after the assad regime, and what is not to like about that if you are the usa?
"Ahrar al-Sham's relationships with U.N. designated terrorist organizations has been, and continues to be, a key point of contention in U.S. and Russian foreign relations and in their Syrian ceasefire negotiations.[160] The U.S. Department of State has said that "Ahrar al-Sham is not a designated foreign terrorist organization".[161] However, some U.S. officials have reportedly considered designating it as a terrorist organization because of its links to al-Qaeda subgroups such as the al-Nusra Front.[153]"

there ideology?
Sunni Islamism
Salafist jihadism[4]
Syrian nationalism

i am sure that works for erdogan and the majority of sunni turks... the turks have to give usa some brownie points for leaving them off the terrorist list..

words from their leader from 2011 to 2014 before he died..
"Ahrar al-Sham leader Hassan Aboud stated that Ahrar al-Sham worked with the Nusra Front and would have no problems with al-Nusra as long as they continued fighting the regime. Aboud also said Ahrar worked with the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) in some battles, but that their agenda was disagreeable. He said all parties, whether they were ISIL, al-Nusra, the Islamic Front, or the FSA, shared the same objective of establishing an Islamic state, but they differed as to the "tactics, strategies or methods". Aboud claimed that in Syria "there are no secular groups". Aboud condemned democracy in an interview with Al-Jazeera, saying that "Democracy is people governing people, according to rules they please. We say that we have a divine system whose law is Allah's for his creatures and his slaves who he appointed as viceregents on this Earth.

that is who erdogan and his apk friends are in bed with here.. be happy - the usa is okay with it!

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 0:01 utc | 144

and in the daily usa press propaganda dispatch today.. i wonder who made the documentary? have the white helmets upped there game??

" I’m not supposed to encourage people to go see things or do some things, but I don’t care. I’m going to break that rule, because I think it’s just that important. A documentary last night called the “Last Men in Aleppo,” and it was about the situation in Aleppo, Syria. And in there you saw the humanitarian disaster. You saw the selfless men who were leaving their families every day to go try to save those who were buried in the rubble or who had been victims of attacks. That situation is being replicated today in eastern Ghouta. We don’t have to see this happen this way. Shine a spotlight on it. Let the world know exactly what is happening. We will back you in this. I will assist you in any way I can in helping you to shine a spotlight on this important issue.

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 1:57 utc | 145

funny how there is never any mention of raqqa and the usa's role in that... from the pics i have seen, the usa did an amazing job of leveling what looks like the whole city... but nada a word from dear heather nauert on that..

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 1:59 utc | 146

"MS NAUERT: When Russia is bolstering the government of Bashar al-Assad, they have a responsibility. We are not providing weapons and material to the government of Bashar al-Assad. We are not aiding in the killing of innocent civilians as Bashar al-Assad is doing."

no mention of the usa supplying weapons to those moderate headchoppers... apparently those moderate headchoppers never kill innocent civilians either... amazing how the usa has their propaganda down so smooth...

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 2:16 utc | 147

Here is a report on what happened at the UN today regarding Syria
UNITED NATIONS, Feb. 22 (Xinhua) -- The United Nations Security Council held discussions Thursday on the situation in Syria's conflicting enclave of Eastern Ghouta, but failed to agree on a resolution calling for a 30-day ceasfire in the war-torn country.

The council was considering a resolution, drafted by Kuwait and Sweden, that demands "a cessation of hostilities throughout Syria for all military operations except those directed at the Islamic State ... al Qaeda and al Nusra Front" for 30 days to allow aid deliveries and medical evacuations.

Swedish Ambassador to the UN Olof Skoog said he hoped the council could vote on the resolution on Thursday. But Russian UN Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia said he would propose amendments to the text for "it to be realistic."

No agreement was reached at the council on the ceasefire "as the conflict deepens in the Arab country due to a sharp rise in terrorist attacks," according to Nebenzia.

I look forward to Russian UN Ambassador Nebenzia's proposed amendments and one could only hope they might include the US removing itself from Syria

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 23 2018 5:22 utc | 148

Peter @ 98: "Not just an ordinary guy by any means. Going by the last - sounds like his job is to infiltrate anywhere targeted by AKP/Erdogan."

Agreed. The corporate media cries and wails about Russian trolls, but is silent about Turkish trolls.
Don't forget that Turkey has a history of imperialism, IS an imperialist state and will employ people to obscure its true motives. Turkey has its own disgusting, transparent ambitions...regard any "Eurasian integration"/"Gulen!1!!"/"the 2016 coup was CIA/NATO" narrative with suspicion.

ConfusedPundit...for someone who's not a Turkish troll, you're quite insistent about what a "regular guy" you are (who also normalizes Turkish imperialism)

Posted by: David | Feb 23 2018 7:18 utc | 149

Dear David | Feb 23, 2018 2:18:20 AM | 149

I'm almost lost for words.

Last try:

1) If you think I'm any good then offer me a better wage and I'll start working for you
2) If you think I'm easy to spot then perhaps I'm a clever troll working for the anti-Erdogan league? The Gulenists excel at that sort of thing! Has that ever occured to you?
3) Perhaps more learned readers think I'm just a bored guy with average IQ.
4) If you want to know about my profile and true feelings: I'm a naive guy who would like to appear on international TV and say: World population+land+assets. Now we share everything. Live and let live.
5) It's interesting to see you portraying the US military build-up in the EU, the Balkans, Blacksea, Aegean, Med, N. Iraq, Syria and the presence of 90.000 Iranian troops in Syria, and an extended 49-year contract for Russian bases in Syria and finally 7% Kurdish population controling 30% off Syria as me normalising Turkish Imperialism. How skewed a way of looking at the picture!

David, are you a troll yourself? I'd bet you are. Anybody who's in denial of the 2016 CIA/Gulen coup attempt is a troll. 100%. You are not going to claim that you are intelligent enough to be on MoA and at the same time are not aware that it was a CIA op! It doesn't make sense. Now you tell me how much you want to work for my boss Mr. Erdogan?

That serves you right. LOL.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 23 2018 11:13 utc | 150

Peter AU 1 | Feb 22, 2018 3:38:39 PM | 142

Honeymoon is over. US-Erdogan fist fight resumes.
Pentagon lies about civilian deaths in Afrin.
Erdogan retaliates with very harsh words and says Manbij is next and then we move to the east of Euphrates.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 23 2018 12:15 utc | 151

@148 psychohistorian.. some of those takifis are directly supported by kuwait... i guess they would like to draft a resolution to protect them! from b earlier today "Jaish al-Islam is under control of the Salafi Alloush clan and is financed through Wahhabi "donations" from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."

there will be no mention of this is your friggin daily sabah either, lol... they will only talk about how no civilians are dying in afrin!!

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 17:49 utc | 152

james | Feb 23, 2018 12:49:11 PM | 152

Latest polls suggest 82.9% have not trust in the media. The ruling party controls less than 40% of the media which means the opposition owes us an explanation.

Currently everybody is busy with the East Ghouta problem (meaning somebody doesn't want Assad to move troops to Golan Heights to sort the issue out after the Op EG). IMHO.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 23 2018 20:26 utc | 153

@153 confused pundit.. i still haven't forgiven you for saying you agree with bobby mueller!

no wonder a large % don't trust turkey media...

from my post @71

"Media restrictions and arrests in Turkey

Turkish government ministers ordered the Turkish press to follow a 15-point list of "expectations" for reporting on the conflict, which included not mentioning attacks on civilians or protests against the operation, relying on Turkish government statements and ignoring statements by "domestic arms of the PKK", which include the Peoples' Democratic Party (HDP), ignoring any protests against the Afrin operation, and keeping in mind "national interest" and "patriotic journalism".[71] Journalists were admonished not to "report news that boosts the morale of the PKK/PYD".[182][183] Reporters without Borders notes that the goal of these directives is to essentially "put the Turkish media at the service of the government and its war goals."[71] On 21 January Erdoğan warned that anyone in Turkey protesting against the operation would pay a "heavy price."[67][184] Erdoğan then added: "Know that wherever you go out on the streets our security forces are on your necks."[185]

As of 23 January 2018, at least 24 journalists writing columns against the operation have been arrested in Turkey.[70] In addition to the arrest of journalists, hundreds of known arrests occurred of social media users who criticized the operation. The Anadolu Chief Public Prosecutor's Office said that the posts were violations of the following crimes proscribed by articles of the Turkish Penal Code, including Article 301, which prohibit insulting public officials or the president, degrading the Turkish nation, and spreading terrorist propaganda.[70][71]

During a news segment on Turkish Radio and Television Corporation (TRT), a newscaster is now being investigated by TRT's news division after she stated on air that civilians died due to Turkish bombardment. The news division stated: "After this sad mistake, our speaker has immediately been withdrawn from the air, and a new friend was assigned to replace her. Also, an investigation has been launched against our speaker."[186]

After the Turkish Medical Association stated that "every clash, every war, causes physical, psychological, social and environmental health problems and causes human tragedy", they were issued arrest warrants against 11 board members of the Turkish Medical Association for spreading terrorist propaganda.[187]

Turkish authorities have arrested numerous leaders and high-ranking members of pro-Kurdish and left-wing political parties.[72] On 6 February 2018, Mehmet Arslan, co-leader of the Democratic Regions Party, has been arrested for criticizing the operation.[188] Days later, more have been arrested which include Onur Hamzaoğlu, a spokesman for the Peoples' Democratic Congress (HDK), Musa Piroğlu, chairman of the Revolutionary Party, Naci Sönmez and Eylem Tunceli, Co-Chairs of the Green Left Party (YSGP), Fadime Çelebi, Deputy Chair of the Socialist Party of the Oppressed, Kezban Konukçu, spokeswoman for the Socialist Solidarity Party, and Ahmet Kaya, co-chair of the Socialist Refoundation Party (SYKP).[189]

Turkey has detained nearly 600 people for social media posts and protesters who opposed the offensive.[190] Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, the Foreign Minister of Turkey, called those who criticize the operation as being nothing but "Marxists, communists, and atheists" who are no different than the YPG.[191]""

Posted by: james | Feb 23 2018 20:47 utc | 154


LMAO. Keep handwaving away Turkey's neo-Ottoman dreams. Nice disappearing Turkey's troops in Afrin and Idlib (who are also bombing pro-Syrian convoys). Nice whitewashing of Turkish proxies in Syria whom the Syrians and 90,000 Iranians had to fight for NEARLY SEVEN YEARS.

Disgusting. Shameful.

No mention of Syria's new defense agreement with the Kurds against Turkey. Naturally.
No mention of Russia's new defense agreement with the Kurds against Turkey. Naturally.

But please, tell us more about how Syria "secretly agreed" to let Turkey invade its own territory desire VERY PUBLIC statements from Syrians to the contrary!! That's what all Erdogan apologists do. They all claim to be "neutral observers" or "pro-Turkish but not pro-Erdogan" while whitewashing Turkish imperialism.

You want to appear on international TV to spread more Turkish propaganda? It's better that you're confined here to be honest, the corporate media has enough stooges spewing disinformation for Erdogan. But it would be a good change of place for you. The Gulenists are a phantom invented by Erdogan to arrest critics, secularists, and activists. You may as well have mentioned UFOs and Bigfoot. You remember when bin Laden was mentioned non-stop in the corporate media after 9/11? It's the same with Erdogan.

Secondly, the other way I suspect you're being dishonest -- no mention of the SDF (Kurdish led force) which ceded territory to the SAA.

Not all Kurdish forces are US-aligned. A US-Kurdish alliance should be opposed, but there is no reason to demonize the Kurds. Only the people who plan to use them for their own agenda. Like *cough cough* Erdogan and the US.

But you think Turkey and its head-chopping stooges will happily hand over Afrin and Idlib to Syrian government forces without resistance, right? LMFAO. Get real. Get a grip.

"Anybody who's in denial of the 2016 CIA/Gulen coup attempt is a troll. 100%. "

More Erdostooge propaganda. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Turks who said it was an Erdogan false flag on the day of the coup. Or are they scary "Gulenists"?

It's the same with the useful Erdostooges. All Kurds are terrorists. All people who oppose Erdogan's crimes are Gulenists.

Goebbels said the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. But also the simpler the lie.

Are you silly enough to believe such simple Erdostooge lies, Pundit? Humor both of us and just admit that Turkey has ulterior motives in Syria aside from the ebil scury Kurds. It's honestly pathetic for you to not acknowledge what's plainly there.

Kurdistan is a threat, but so is a neo-Ottoman Syrian rump state.

Posted by: David | Feb 23 2018 22:14 utc | 155

@ ConfusedPundit who has not responded to my comment # 107

I feel left out of your sharing your world view.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 24 2018 1:02 utc | 156

Dear james | Feb 23, 2018 3:47:42 PM | 154

I told you, that wikipedia page must've been written for black propaganda purposes.
Rename it to erdoganpedia, change the contents and voila! I'm being objective but you are not.

Public distrust of media includes opposition controlled media too. What makes you want to single out the Erdogan sycophants? Do you see what I mean? If you aim to get rid of Erdogan and are arranging a romantic future for us with the current opposition media, then you are asking too much. Hausmeister was right when he said we needed to change the whole system. The system in the USI+EUI, Ro-Ro Brothers controlled entities, have to change too. You first! Lead us! Or at least support Erdogan Guevara so that he can help you out. Why do you want to shoot yourself in the leg instead?

As for Bobby Mueller's posts, yes, I found him to the point. What's wrong with that? I don't know him, he used to keep ringing your door bell and run away or something? You have vendetta going on between you guys? What he wrote was very sensible. I'm sure he is a good person too.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 12:37 utc | 157

Dear psychohistorian | Feb 20, 2018 11:06:34 AM | 107 + 157


It's hard to speak on behalf of other people but I do come across some who grumble about unchecked pursuit for gain which has been all the rage here since the beginning of 80s. Today we have individuals with 100 loaves of bread on their table while there are so many others who can't even find crumbs of it.

I'd personally be much happier to see people with similes on their faces around me rather than owning 20 luxury houses surrounded with high walls and protected by cctv cameras lest envious humans break into them out of despair. Yet, I have been trying to find $10-12m investment for the past few month so that I could buy some govt owned land in a very posh area in Istanbul and make 200% profit on it within a short time and then I was thinking I could by a few flats with my share of the profit and rent them out or something. LOL. You see, pursuit for gain based on property ownership is all the rage here, it is contagious. You are forced to do as the Romans do. The previous govts. pursued liberal economics and the current one is even worse. The city I live in is more like a giant construction yard and it is the same case elsewhere. The main opposition, which is supposed to represent the left is the same, their politicans are getting rich day by day and their main area of interest is accumulation of private property. Kurdish tribes invest in property, the rich invest in property, the celebrities prefer to put their money in property, islamic sects want more property.

What do you suggest I can do to change this situation? To begin with I should watch La Casa de Papel over and over again?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 14:34 utc | 158

Dear David | Feb 23, 2018 5:14:47 PM | 155

You are not making much sense.

The CIA/their stations in the EU/Gulen organised coup attempt is not open to debate.
Kemalists, Nationalists, Erdoganists, Islamists, Ateists, kids and the elderly...

Everyone in Turkey but those on Soros and CIA payroll knows who did what in Turkey 2 summers ago. Full Stop. There is consensus in the country, amongst both Erdogan and anti-Erdogan people. Period. You may have heard that some hundreds of people think it was an Erdogan's false flag but there are 80 million people in Turkey and 79m people know what the truth is. Punctum.

Your denial means that you are either a troll or a quasi-troll, a victim to the culprits' propaganda, a gullible carrier of disinformation, at best.

And by the way, if you ever happened to get told that the grandson of Erdogan killed JFK (RIP), just take a deep breath, look down and make sure nobody's pulling your leg and run. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 15:19 utc | 159


Something, I have been wondering about. The AQ lawyer who was a friend. BY AQ I take it you mean't al Qaeda. How did he represent AQ? Getting them off parking fines and stuff? Defending someone who was accused of being AQ? Was he a lawyer who had sworn allegiance to AQ?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 24 2018 15:23 utc | 160

@ Confused Pundit with a reply to my questions about public/private finance/property

Thanks for the reply but you sound like Formerly-T-Bear in the assumption that there is no alternative and anyone pursuing such is delusional.

The only constant is change and its working on the cancer that is killing humanity. The God and religion of Mammon are false gods of human hubris and time will crush them with their acolytes and the rest of us in a heart beat of cosmological time.

I feel sorry for those that can't think beyond what is as life must be very stultifying for them. Some of us dream, think, plan and work for a better world instead of the ongoing slavery that life for most has become. You can aspire in your life to become or like the oligarchs of property and finance but do you not think about humanity and your small responsibility to it to replace rule by birthright to rule by merit?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 24 2018 16:18 utc | 161

Dear Peter AU 1 | Feb 24, 2018 10:23:34 AM | 160

He represented Louai Al Sakka, AQ's Turkey rep, responsible for Istanbul bomb attacks, Afghan mujahideens, some other AQ members etc. He was a famous person. He was detained on suspicion of being an AQ member. He was a really good guy, he was very kind hearted, but obviously he had a cause. RIP.

Now picture it, me a non-religious caucasian, him an AQ guy with dark skin and a beard, a typical moderate headchopper look. People were buffled. Same thing happens here on MoA too, prejudice prevails. Erdoganists think I'm a Kemalist, Kemalists think I'm an Erdoganist. Some even thought I was an English spy. Some thought I was a Gulenist. Some thought I was a nationalist except the nationalists themselves. It just goes to prove that almost everybody is politicized (blinkered). I guess I won't have peace unless I join up with some groups or I should lay low and stay away from political atmospheres altogether. I don't know, I'm confused.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 16:51 utc | 162

@157 confused pundit.. no cp.. now i really think you are full of shit... it took me a while, lol... thanks for the wake up call however... happy trails in your dissemination of regular love letters about erdogan to the rest of the world... it doesn't work with me!

Posted by: james | Feb 24 2018 17:29 utc | 163

interesting character study - confused pundit...

Posted by: james | Feb 24 2018 17:30 utc | 164

Dear psychohistorian | Feb 24, 2018 11:18:08 AM | 161

I'm a concerned person, I do think about humanity practically all the time. I'd give rather than take. I hear on the news that some kids are shot to death in America and I feel really really moved. There is a terrible war in Syria. I was on Harmony Street, Mallaca, Malaysia where all sorts of temples are next to each other, mosques, Buddhist temples, churches all in harmony while there was a war taking place in Yugoslavia, what a striking contrast that was for me and I was in utopic thoughts for the rest of the trip.

But, I watched a documentary video about China. The revolution is taking place. Some hundred thousand people die because of lack of food. Mao's guys conduct a quick research and they find the cause. The birds are eating the seeds. A massive nationwide bird hunting ensues. Next year 20 million people die because the birds were feeding on pests and insects too. Moral of the lesson? Be careful when you are sticking your nose into the worldly (or divine?) affairs.

Now as part of my small responsibility to replace rule by birthright to rule by merit I can aim my peashooter at a few birds but are you sure that won't lead to greater damage?

And no, I'm not FTB, I don't think you are delusional at all. Let's put it this way, there is a possibility that you may be mistaken. This world doesn't belong to you. What makes you want to change the system? What is it to you whether the world turns into a hell or heaven after you are gone? What's the motive behind it? Because you are seeking immortality. Why does one favor birthright passed onto their siblings? Because they are after immortality. So don't you think there is something strange there? The 2 very same motives have a clash of interest? But I'd definitely prefer a limit on property ownership provided that there are those left out in the open and that we are forced to be content with a minimum wage to buy some bloke a maximum megayacht.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 18:38 utc | 165

@ Confused Pundit #165

Do you think we should logic and reason or religious myth to govern ourselves? I believe we are too ignorant to even know what divine affairs are but I feel totally responsible for human worldly affairs and don't co-mingle the two like you.

To your Mao example I would counter with Fukushima and say check mate.....the worst sort of (for profit) social risk management that puts hundreds if not thousands of future generations on the hook to manage our nuclear effluent....or die. And you might want to read up on what China has done since Mao days. I will take 13 5-year plans over the hidden machinations of BIS, FED, City of London, etc. of private finance any day.

I am glad you see some value in restricting private property ownership.

Why do I care? I am a member of a species and want the best future for it even though I am 69 and didn't make any kids to have to make excuses to about our world. I believe that all I have to share with others of any impact is the example of how I live my life. And while I think that all religions are hubristic nonsense, I do admit to a feeling of connection to the Cosmos within my body, kinda like a resonance.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 24 2018 19:42 utc | 166

Dear psychohistorian | Feb 24, 2018 2:42:17 PM | 166

The Fukushima Offense was in my library so I capture your piece with my pawn without hesitation. I'm not a Neo-Luddite. To me it was built for a good cause, for the greater good. Social risks? Yes. Father of 4 went fishing by the river and when he came back his kids were no more, eaten by wolves. These things happen.

Whereas the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, Monsanto, IRRI, LGBT pride... Those kinds of things deserve more attention from me. We had 28 chromosomes in our wheat but now there are 42. Also we have a problem with Cargill. They don't want us to consume sugar beet, but their corn syrup instead. They are poisoning us.

Erdogan is about to finish building the (biggest?) airport in the world in Istanbul. The Germans and the UAE folks are not happy so they hit Turks from another angle. Trump is not happy with the Chinese one belt one road project so his navy posed in front of the recently built 3rd boshphorus bridge in Istanbul. There is a bridge on the Economist's cover with a lot of emojis. The Germans are the guys who are behind the so called Armenian Genocide lie. They are poisining the whole world.

They don't really care about us. A mixture of logic, reason and religious myth will keep governing us, in the golden age, in an adapted form. Am I happy? Nope. Can I do something about it? Well, what?

At the moment I'm Tao against Mao. Not because I'm carefree but because these days I'm overwhelmed with the speed of changes.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 24 2018 23:25 utc | 167

Yawn. "The CIA/their stations in the EU/Gulen organised coup attempt is not open to debate."

Myth. Hoax. Propaganda.

Your script is getting really tired, dude. b was one of the first to suspect it was an Erdostooge false flag. You gonna call him a Gulenist too?

Posted by: David | Feb 24 2018 23:45 utc | 168

@ ConfusedPundit who wrote: "At the moment I'm Tao against Mao. Not because I'm carefree but because these days I'm overwhelmed with the speed of changes."

The elite want you overwhelmed so you are more easily led. Try not to be too easy for them....that is what you can do Some would say that the pace of real change has slowed or stopped.

Demand that finance be a public utility or your people like the rest of us will spend life as some sort of slave to the birthright elite. Think about the Gordian Knot that finance represents to humanity and the potential for good that getting rid of the God of Mammon incentives would offer to all....other reasons to live, what a concept!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 25 2018 2:38 utc | 169

Dear David | Feb 24, 2018 6:45:52 PM | 168

Neocon/CIA/CIA stations elsewhere/Gulen masterminded coup attempt against His Excellency Mr. Don Erdogan von Guevara de Eastwood al Norris bin Seagal (the best leader in the world, insert standing ovation here, bravo, bravo) is an indisputable fact.

Your denial effort is peculiar to amateur trolls.

My question is I wonder what other lies the US+EU people are subjected to under the current feudal system which mercilessly sucks their blood?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 25 2018 12:15 utc | 170

Dear "Confused"Pundit -- which you are:

The false flag coup attempt is well documented and your attempts to dismiss it are laughable and would be cute if its implications for Turkey's democracy weren't so serious.

These facts were all established on the day of the coup: There were almost no military higher ups involved in the coup. The coup took place in broad daylight and only had partial support from some ranks of the military. There was no imposed curfew. Rebels failed to seize and control media outlets. Erdogan was conveniently out of the capital when the coup took place. "Rebel" fighter jets were tailing Erdogan's plane, but didn't shoot him down. Erdogan left his hotel MINUTES before it was bombed. Those are just a few of the many, many, MANY glaring anomalies which point to foreknowledge of a coup, at the very least, if not a false flag.

I'm done talking with you. You are confirmed Turkish disinfo, and I have no interest in talking to someone who has a primal fetish for fellating a genocidal dictator, the Turkish Saddam Hussein, the mad Sultan Erdogan. Your handwaving, your denials and your bullshit counter-accusations only reveal more of what you wish to hide.

Posted by: David | Feb 25 2018 20:34 utc | 171

Dear David | Feb 25, 2018 3:34:22 PM | 171

Thanks. I feel enlightened. Actually your thoughts coincide with all neocons' ideas about the coup attempt.

Now I understand it was Erdogan who did it. Clever guy.

By the way, there are a few neocons in Turkish jails too.

With love from Istanbul.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 25 2018 21:25 utc | 172

Dear psychohistorian | Feb 24, 2018 9:38:43 PM | 169

Before Erdogan, the elite in Turkey (relatives of those feudals who own FED, BIS etc) reigned over the finance capital unchecked. Erdogan first took the control of the central bank. It wasn't very easy, the country went up in flames. Then he gradually began to transfer 'wealth' from the elite to those who were bereft of it. The elite weren't very happy. They used their local proxies to hinder Erdogan's policies. Erdogan didn't stop. Eventually, the elite stood up against him but he told them off publicly. The Gulenists and their CIA guys were in charge of the entire communication network, telecom, datacenters, social media HQs in Turkey etc. One day we were shaken with a huge corruption scandal targeting the Erdogan's govt. Erdogan resisted. Then the Gezi riots took place in the country. Then the Gulensists tried to arrest the intel director. Then came the Gulenists' coup attempt. Of course for globalists shills like our friend David above, the story is different to the one I present here. Anyway, the elections are approaching. Provided that all goes well for the 'patriots' I can then try to demand for finance to be a public utility in the next period. Finance is more accessible than it was at pre-Erdogan times. I understand what you mean but I'm not sure if the general atmosphere is very suitable for a larger campaign. Turkey is at war, chances are that it will evolve into a wider one in the upcoming months. There is some political instability (some chaps are currently provoking all walks of life in the country and they'll channel the anger against the govt before the elections obviously) and therefore I doubt anyone will notice my our your recommendations at present. IMHO.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 25 2018 22:16 utc | 173

@ ConfusedPundit who wrote that Erdogan took control of the Central Bank in Turkey

I didn't know that, thanks.

I agree that not many can see the bigger picture of our society and so structural change is hard there

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 25 2018 22:58 utc | 174

I have been mainly concerned with what Erdogan does outside Syria rather than domestically. That is Turkey's business though what you are saying, if correct, does throw a slightly different light on Erdogan.
How would Erdogan's support base view him if he pulled out of Jarabulus and pulled support for the crowd in Idlib leaving those areas for the Syrian government? Seems that a portion of Erdogan's support base also support the headchopper types in Idlib. Kurds are a different matter.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 26 2018 1:37 utc | 175

Dear Peter AU 1 | Feb 25, 2018 8:37:45 PM | 175

Erdogan cannot pull out of Jarablus or Afrin or Idlib for that matter. It's not upto Erdogan anyway. The TAF are planning and already 'training' for incursions into other areas of N. Syria. The math is simple, Syria remains intact, Turks pull out. Syria is divided, Turks stay. But a civil war at the scale means nobody can get out for at least 30 years. Centcom's Votel was in N. Iraq. He appears to be reorganizing the Barzanistan forces. The PKK base was mainly in Qandil, N. Iraq. But they now have a base in Sinjar, Syria, next to Iraqi border. Turks are unhappy. Only small parts of Syria normally belong to the Kurds but the leaders of original Kurdish residents have all been killed by the PKK/YPG. Arabs, Turkmens, Assyrians all refugees have to go back to their homes. Erdogan's support base does not support 'headchoppers'. Only a tiny fraction of the society here favors headchoppers. Same as in every country. Anybody with connections to radicals are sent straight to jail. Radicalism = potential foreign finger. The Turks are scared of it themselves.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 13:42 utc | 177

@173 confused.. i call bullshit on your comment "Erdogan first took the control of the central bank."

when exactly did this take place?

central banks operate independently from the politicians of the country..

here is a list of the banks governors since erdogan has been on the scene... they get a 5 year period and nothing seems to have changed in anything here...

18 Süleyman Gazi Erçel April 10, 1996 March 1, 2001
19 Süreyya Serdengeçti March 14, 2001 March 14, 2006
20 Durmuş Yılmaz April 18, 2006 April 13, 2011
21 Erdem Başçı April 14, 2011 April 19, 2016
22 Murat Çetinkaya April 19, 2016 present

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2018 17:55 utc | 178

this link gives a better picture on it..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2018 18:05 utc | 179

@176 A.Nother.. thanks.. those are hot off the press...

here is the latest from almasdarnews...

"Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated that Moscow considers it likely that there will be further “disinformation” about the alleged chemical weapons used in Syria, which he said may sabotage ceasefire agreements in the country.

Lavrov made the statement at a press conference held alongside his Portuguese counterpart Augusto Santos Silva in Moscow on Monday."

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2018 18:12 utc | 180

james | Feb 26, 2018 12:55:14 PM | 178 & 179

As of 2011.
Also the HDN does give a better picture of their envy and their subtle stir up in the article but you don't see that of course. Turkey fares better in Debt to GDP ratio than most of the countries. The central bank has shareholders of course, the local reps of the globalist feudals. The control is in Erdogan's hands though. Gazi himself had stolen $$$ from the coffers during the night of the 2001 financial crisis. Things were that bad before Erdogan.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 26 2018 18:46 utc | 181

confused pundit, they have cut their public debt, but it's been privatized and hasn't gone away.. the continued dilemma facing many countries in the world hasn't gone away with turkey..but it is better then canada as i see it, so kudos to turkey on getting rid of the public debt... i don't know how much of this was under the watch of erdogan though..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2018 21:08 utc | 182

Dear james | Feb 26, 2018 4:08:32 PM | 182

A lot of it is Erdogan's propaganda. Everybody here can see what's going on.
Erdo is under political, social, economic pressure from all sides. There is also a war.
The credit rating agencies such as S&P, Moody's, Fitch etc. downgraded Turkish rates unjustly at a time when the TR economy was great but the Greeks and some others for instance got higher marks when their economies were collapsing. Ecomomic pressure came in a bundle: Gulenist campaign, PKK attacks, bombs going off in major cities together with many other problems all at the same time.

We know what's going on. So Erdogan plays with the figures as needed. Is the economy any good? Well, it's nothing like it was during the first 2 terms of Erdogan. But people do not blame him. On the contrary they support him. Is Erdogan spotless? No. He has been making far too many mistakes. But again he is forgiven because of the hostility coming from the West. Can he survive the economic choppy waters? Yes, the people will eat bread and still support him. Erdogan has a new toy now. It was construction field before, the entire country was being rebuilt and now his area of interest is the defense industry. Ukraine's media agency claims U.S prevented a TR-Ukraine joint rocket and aircraft building projects 2 years ago. The reason given is "uncontrolled strengthening of the defense and technological potential of Turkey". Erdo wants to sell weapons. He wants to be a part of the UNSC, I think so but I'm not sure because it's never discussed in the media accept airing his frequent slogan 'the world is bigger than five!' I take that as a subliminal desire to be in the league of weapons manufacturers. Then he'll go into oil drilling? That's my gut feelings. He's an ambitious guy. We don't foresee major economic troubles in the future.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 27 2018 12:15 utc | 183

@183 cp - thanks! as i see it the potential trouble ahead for turkey is the danger inherent in syria... it is in turkeys best interests to come to a better place with syria, as opposed to erdogan constantly bad mouthing assad... he will get brownie points in the westor israel for this - is that really what he wants? he won't get any brownie points from russia or iran though... so, i think a change in erdogans stance towards assad and syria would be in the best interests of turkey longer term... i don't know if erdogan is a big enough man to swallow his pride and come to terms with the fact he fucked up messing in syria... what do you think??

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2018 17:34 utc | 184

Dear james | Feb 27, 2018 12:34:39 PM | 184

Erdogan has been in touch with Assad for a long time.

Look at this picture: Assad, Dogu Perincek (leader of Homeland Party) and the guy behind them is Mr. Pekin, the former head of the military intelligence They were in Syria. They are in touch routinely.

Erdogan, Perincek, Pekin (his deputy, both are Kemalists) and Bahceli, the leader of National Movement Party are all working together towards a common aim in Turkey: Independence.

MIT is in touch with Muhabarat too.

Erdogan is aware of the traps ahead. He waits until they are visible. He is aware of his capacity and that of the Western block, Russians, Iran, ME, China. He won't stick his head out the way you want him to do. Look what happened, the UK was quiet, but suddenly they entered the stage. The French started talking very often. Erdogan is a pragmatic guy, what pride? You are misinterpreting Erdo's actions. Him and the Turks know their limits and are acting accordingly. A regional alliance is being worked on.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 27 2018 18:51 utc | 185

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