Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 01, 2018

Syria - Erdogan's Bashibazouk Want To Ravage Afrin

The map shows the situation in Afrin canton in north-west Syria. The Turkish army and associated Takfiri militia (green) are trying to push the Syrian Kurds (yellow) out of the area.


What is claimed as newly Turkish conquered (light green arrows) on the map may overnight change back into Kurdish hands. This has happened several times over the last week. The fighting is quite intense (vid). The Kurds seem to have many anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) and the Turks have all the tools of a professional army plus a fanatic militia that serves as their infantry. These (vid) Turkish sponsored Takfiris in the Afrin area seem to come from various countries. One sings a Nasheed:

We were steadfast in Grozny,
We were steadfast in Dagestan.
And we took Tora Bora as our den,
And we took Tora Bora as our den.
We made glory in Afrin and in sad Aleppo.
And Afrin is calling for us: 'Oh welcome good people.' "

Grozny and Dagestan, both in the Russian Federation, were devastated in wars against Takfiris. The Tora Bora caves in east-Afghanistan were al-Qaeda's stronghold before the U.S. waged war on the country. 

Here is another video of Erdogan's henchmen:

SURA‏ @AlSuraEnglish - 4:26 PM - 1 Feb 2018
#BREAKING - (Graphic Warning) #Turkish-backed #Syrian rebels strip and mutilate dead female #Kurdish #YPG (YPJ) fighter in #Afrin as offensive against #Afrin continues.

The graphic video, available through the tweet above (or on request through me), shows a dead young woman, partially clothed in military attire, who's breasts have been cut off. Some ten men in mixed military-civil cloth are standing around her in the 13 seconds video. They can not be identified.

SURA @AlSuraEnglish
Laughter is heard before #Syrian rebel pushes her chest with his boot, another says "No don't do things like this guys". The next fighter says "Bring the other one" referring to the female #Kurdish #YPG (YPJ) fighters corpse. #Turkey has not commented on rebel behavior yet.

I am not sure these are "Syrian militia" or "Syrian rebel" as SURA says - see first video above.

These marauding groups are Erdogan's neo-ottoman version of the Bashibazouk:

A bashi-bazouk (Turkish: başıbozuk, lit. "damaged head", roughly "leaderless" or "disorderly") was an irregular soldier of the Ottoman army. Bashi-bazouk could be ethnic Turks or from other peoples of the empire such as Circassians, Arabs, Albanians, or Bosniaks.
They were armed and maintained by the government, but did not receive pay and did not wear uniforms or distinctive badges. They were motivated to fight mostly by expectations of plunder.
The bashi-bazouk were notorious for being brutal and undisciplined, thus giving the term its second, colloquial meaning of "undisciplined bandit" in many languages.

After the Syrian Army had re-taken the Al Dahur airbase last week it made a short pause. Some secondary units are cleaning up the black cauldron that is held by a few al-Qaeda and ISIS remnants. The plan for the main Syrian army force is to proceed west-north-west towards Idelb. Idleb governorate is held by al-Qaeda and an assortment of other "rebels". Their lines are currently thin as Turkey had pulled many of these out to support  its operation in Afrin.


Three days ago Turkey sent a battalion of its regular army, protected by al-Qaeda, to set up a blocking position west of the current Syrian army line. It was an unexpected surprise move. The convoy stopped before reaching its planned destination when Syrian artillery and some aerial bombing hit its vicinity. The next day, maneuvering aimlessly in al-Qaeda country, the convoy was hit by an IED which killed one driver and wounded several soldiers. It is likely that some elements of al-Qaeda, or of other Takfiri groups, disliked the Turkish presence. The convoy then pulled back to its starting point in Turkey.

Today the main Syrian army force started to move again and took several villages north and west of its line. Its next targets are Saraqib and Maarat Al-Numan, both about 15 kilometers away from the current positions,  and then a clean-up of the whole are east of the M5 highway between Hama and Aleppo.

PS: Vanessa Beeley just published her excellent research on the highly professional propaganda support for al-Qaeda's "White Helmets": WHITE HELMETS: Channel 4, BBC, The Guardian – Architects of War

Posted by b on February 1, 2018 at 20:48 UTC | Permalink

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You know the fuckers running the US imperium into the ground are getting restless and fearful that their favourite head- and breast-choppers are going to be wiped out, when there's yet another threat from the US to act against SAA because of yet another alleged fake chemical attack. One they couldn't even manage to stage and film properly, this time...

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 1 2018 21:00 utc | 1

thanks b and clueless joe @1...

turkey is playing with fire here...nothing like claiming to get rid of terrorists while using your own to do it... meanwhile the usa never saw some foreign war shitstorm they didn't want to add fire to whether it be with propaganda, or the weapons they have handed over to their ''good guys, or gals'' as the case may be... erdogan is walking a fine line here.. in spite of the knee jerk response from the usa on him, i continue to question his motives here.. the dude is as untrustworthy as the usa and that is saying a lot!

Posted by: james | Feb 1 2018 21:27 utc | 2

Although not specifically related to the thread topic, Adam Garrie frames his 911 essay by using the late composer Karlheinz Stockhausen's description--a description we often see within Syria and elsewhere. Indeed, the atrocities b mentions are all part of the "performance."

As Canthama observed on his Twitter feed: The Afrin Kurds are "morons" for not allowing the Syrian government to reclaim its rightful position as protector of Syria's lands. Had they done so, the two women and many others would be alive and massive damage avoided. I would add another adjective--Masochists--to morons. Not long ago, Assad said those Syrians who choose to not stand with the elected government against the invaders are guilty of treason; so, it would seem the Turkish assault amounts to punishment. I wonder how long it will take for the Kurds to get the picture.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 1 2018 21:29 utc | 3

It's impossible to pick a side between the jihadist-supporting Turkish offensive and the US-backed, often collaborating with jihadists, "Kurdish" side. (I used quotes around Kurdish because Kurdish-controlled forces have taken land where Arabs, Christians, and others have traditionally lived in Syria.) Obviously, the best situation would be for the Syrian army to take control of the border, keeping the Turks out and providing both security and government control to the northern lands of Syria.

Posted by: WorldBLee | Feb 1 2018 21:33 utc | 4

I wonder what will happen when most of north, central, east and west Afrin has eventually been occupied by the attackers and grabbed from the current occupiers. Will those fleeing thieves remaining in southern Afrin beg the Syrian government for and be allowed to have a corridor to Manbij or eastern Syria waiting for another day to steal more land in favor of US+Zionist strategic interests? I can't imagine they will be allowed to settle in government controlled area's after their loathsome acts of ultimate treason. I think the SAA should completely shut the borders with Afrin, reinforce it, let the current fight between the thieves play out by itself but also expect attacks from fleeing Kurds. Maybe it would forever be a lesson written in blood that Kurdish lives are completely worthless in face of the US empire's interests.

Posted by: xor | Feb 1 2018 21:47 utc | 5

Hard to believe such savagery is the norm in the 21st century.

War is always horrific, yet animalistic butchery is not forgivable.

Just as the planners and leaders who unleash these animals should not be forgiven for the War.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Feb 1 2018 22:04 utc | 6

War is brutal - we have seen in Libya with what happened to Gadaffi and Syria with the head chopping and various other atrocities.

We probably don’t know the full depth of this.

These women are caught up in this savage brutality of this war
The Kurds should have made a deal with the government

Turkey I agree with another comment can’t be trusted - but Russia has leverage over them economically - and they can play this card

Posted by: James | Feb 1 2018 22:05 utc | 7

It was during the massacre of Armenians around Adana in 1898 that my great grandmother on my mother's side had her breasts cut off by the Turks.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Feb 1 2018 22:15 utc | 8

@7 I don't think the Russians are in any position to dictate to Turkey. And can't you see the headlines if they try... "Putin Flipflops!! Stabs Erdogan in the back!!!"

But the Turks should think about restraining their own militias....if only because they produce bad publicity.

Posted by: dh | Feb 1 2018 22:26 utc | 9

Everything is muddy, unclear. As the planet staggers to support the huge demands of an increasingly growing and deranged humanity, hundreds of species die off each day. One group of humanity comes up against another in some Syrian landscape.

The ideas of Murray Bookchin appear to inspire the PKK in Turkey, the YPG in Syria and the YPJ (Kurdish women soldiers). This from the Nation: Imprisoned PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan, and the Kurds in Turkey and Syria who follow him (Bookchin), seek to create communities that enshrine the values of direct democracy, non-hierarchy, the empowerment of women, ecological stewardship, a moral economy, and religious tolerance. Abandoning their ideological bent toward Marxism and demand for an independent Kurdistan, these activists have instead focused on democracy-building: putting power in the hands of local citizens.

Who could argue with that?

Posted by: Lochearn | Feb 1 2018 22:44 utc | 10

This Nasheed is circulating worldwide. Obviously a good propaganda work to benefit Anti-Turkish sides.

You need yesterday's French statement to understand what's going on:

Macron: Turkey's Operation Shouldn't Turn into an Invasion

Meaning: Turkish army in Afrin without the FSA will look as an invasion force.

FSA, get out!


Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 1 2018 22:45 utc | 11

Sorry to promote the same person's reasoning/writing in the same thread, but Garrie's framing of the Turkish "invasion" is quite clever, and Syrian government behavior seems to provide confirmation. Yes, and it does come with a whiff of Putin/Lavrov.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 1 2018 22:47 utc | 12

Obviously, the best situation would be for the Syrian army to take control of the border, keeping the Turks out and providing both security and government control to the northern lands of Syria.

Posted by: WorldBLee | Feb 1, 2018 4:33:48 PM | 4

There was a "long essay", more than 12 tweets, discussing that topic. SAA cannot fight on too many fronts, and YPG "got too full of themselves". Damascus government demanded more-or-less full control in Afrin before sending troops there, and Russian coordinated with Damascus, in particular, refused to threaten Turkish airforce. YPG fancied themselves that they can maintain trappings of an independent statelet, e.g. they replaced Syrian license plates with their own (talk about vanity plates!). However, Syria-Russia allies keep their options open. In particular, SAA allows YPG/SDF traffic on highways through the controlled territory, I bet that this is somewhat reciprocal, but the reciprocity is less important for SAA than for YPG.

Allegedly, Turkey mobilized 25,000 of their pet jihadists for the Afrin war, some of those were recruited in Idlib-stan a while ago, and some just recently for the occasion. That made it easier for SAA and allies to take control of the "eastern Idlib-stan", about 1/3 of the former territory (there is also ISIS enclave that was formed when the moderate jihadist retreated and in part, switched sides, this enclave is wittled down rather slowly, just so it cannot threaten important highways).

Kurds are in a tricky situation. Scratch that. Everybody is, this is a multi-way war after all, in the custom of the region that is amply attested in history.

1. Russian difficulties. Selling natural gas without obstruction is a major state interest of RF, and a minor interest is cementing their position as the cheapest and most reliable supplier of nuclear power stations, Erdogan found that these interests dovetail the Turkish ones, but those are long-term projects that can be suspended with minor immediate consequences. One of several reasons why Russia has to treat Turkey with care. Moreover, the war in Syria is not overwhelmingly popular in Russia, so the strategy of RF is to commit as few ground troops as possible. Turkey does some dirty stuff allowing heavy weapons to reach jihadists, but they can do worse (and they did worse in the past).

2. Turkish difficulties. They can be almost cut-and-pasted from the previous point. In particular, war in Syria is not sufficiently popular to commit a large number of ground troops. I doubt if the moderate jihadists that were gathered for the occasion indeed form a "fanatical force". After many years of bloody civil war, mutiliating corpses is just something "everybody does". Actually, the fact that SAA very productively exploits of the absence of these forces from Idlib is probably reducing their morale. As a result, the war progresses somewhat slowly, giving some face to Afrin-ers, and negotiate rescue from SAA + Russia.

3. Syrian difficulties. After many years of the civil war, most of the military consists of "semi-regular" units that operate only in their home regions, and with rather sketchy training, discipline and armament, so they can advance on few fronts only. Fighting to help Afrin has to be worth A LOT to forgo other needs.

4. Kurdish difficulties. USA is a generous provider of weapons and payroll, but Syrian Kurds also rely on good will of SAA and Russians. USA wants them to make the relations with SAA and Russian much worse than now, and they need to make them better. They have to decide what type of autonomy would be good for them, and when to refuse American aid if the latter will demand to be maximalist (like, total independence). Usually this leads to internal divisions, and at the very least, they will have to make a show of such divisions.

5. American difficulties. As for everyone, there is a gap between wishes and possibilities, and it is hard to see what wishes can be fulfilled in a longer time frame.

6. Piotr's difficulties. Getting a semi-complete list of difficulties.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 1 2018 22:59 utc | 13

Propaganda wars.

This is my interpretation of the case.

The Coalition for Occupation is not happy. In fact they are like Desperate Housewives.

The U.S. led Coalition partners once claimed YPG is not PKK.

And the Turkish airstrike of yesterday on a Building with a rooftop portrait of Abdullah Ocalan
arrives in. A giant portrait of 27m X 40m PKK leader's in Afrin. Turks hit the portrait right in the mouth. PKK in Afrin? Every household in Afrin has PKK flags since Afrin's occupation in 2012 by PKK.

The airstrike made the US led coalition unhappy.

Here is the giant portrait:

36°46′46.9″N 36°48′42.7″E

Now it's Turks' turn to counter the new move, if they can.


Here is the building after the strike

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 1 2018 23:01 utc | 14

I didn't much like the language in this text. Bashi-bazouk = jihadi. No more, no less. Turkish language for the Arabic. Those who fight for nothing for their religion; it's an ancient Islamic practice, which goes back to the 8th century. However the jihadis in the Syrian war are paid, but don't have military training. Militias. Introduce this term, bashi-bazouk, is simply to add the ancient European hatred to what you don't like.

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 1 2018 23:06 utc | 15


The Armenians in Adana during French occupation after WWI, helped French Army to massacre the Turks.

War is hell, no matter which side you are on.

Posted by: Adanali | Feb 1 2018 23:18 utc | 16

I can't see that the situation has changed one little bit. Erdogan fears the development of a Kurdish power on his border. He can't attack Rojava, because that leads to a military confrontation with the US, so he attacks the bit not defended by the US. He uses religious militias as the ground troops, and they're brutal, much like the Syrian jihadis. So what's new?

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 1 2018 23:18 utc | 17

@Laguerre - The ottoman Bashi-bazouk were a more or less organized force of the empire to control parts of its realm. They were not Jihadis in the sense of the religion (small and big Jihad). They were marauders send as punishment. Various European empires had similar forces.

Posted by: b | Feb 1 2018 23:26 utc | 18

limited hang out no
a headline with the words israel in it
oded yinon what dat
james house keeping clean up crew b through in a jiffy
the gorilla is taking a dump the size of a mountain in your little meet up
and you folks stick a peg on your nose and keep tapping yourselves on your twisted backs
twisted from b ing on yer goy knees

whats that noise ohh just james refreshing refreshing the page into saturn in finity

Posted by: simon smithers | Feb 1 2018 23:28 utc | 19

b @17--

The equivalence isn't perfect, but Russian Cossack = Ottoman Bashi-bazouk, as in your "marauders sent as punishment."

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 1 2018 23:34 utc | 20 deleted my comment. It was about the Kurds and the ideas of Bookshin. It was meant to be a bit ironic. I don't know if I succeeded in communicating that.

Posted by: Lochearn | Feb 1 2018 23:37 utc | 21

The "Bashi-bazouks" are familiar villains to students of the Bulgarian Atrocities, which WE Gladstone used in his Midlothian campaign.

As to the general situation- Turkey could very quickly restore itself to Imperial favour by occupying the entire border area and using it as a base for the takfiri militias. This, after all is Washington's real desire. The kurds, after all, are unlikely to pick new fights with Damascus, would be very happy to settle for federal autonomy status (which in the end, ask a Catalan, means little) and, as we have seen in Iraq, compromise with Iranian and Iraqi governments.
The same cannot be said about ISIS or al qaeda, both old friends of Erdogan's. Nothing would suit the US and Israel better than to have an Islamic State, totally dependent on their arms and toleration. That, after all is what the Pentagon and the neo-cons have been trying to accomplish all along.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 1 2018 23:54 utc | 22

This video coupled with the statements coming from the U.S. govt. claim that the Syrian regime has chemical weapons and the French opportunist, Macron, who does a hit and run warning Turks against invasion means that the Coalition of Angels, who released 7000 inmates from Libya, Mousul, Egypt, Afghan prisons to back up ISID is very serious about defending their energy, water, land loot in Syria. 'Jihadists' and 'a dead woman with breasts cut off' means the coalition for occupation envisages the undead owners of the land may want it back because the potential success of a TAF + FSA (mainly the Syrian citizens inclusive of Kurds, Arabs, Turkmen fighting the foreign PKK invaders in Afrin) may lead to a domino effect amongst the people in the region and the Coalition may be forced to leave the occupied land for the hotels in La Hague until the trial day.


Tragicomic. I need a cocktail of prozac+xanax (1.000.000 mg please) So bored with lies.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 1 2018 23:59 utc | 23

Dear b, re 17

Although the Encyclopedia of Islam (Brill, Leiden, the basic source on the Islamic world, unfortunately not open) does not say that the Bashi-Bozuk were religious volunteers, I suspect that they were. The article was written before that became a question.

If they were not, then your description of them as bashi-bazouk is incorrect, as what the North Syrian volunteers are is nothing other than religious volunteers (=jihadis).

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 2 2018 0:25 utc | 24

Well the video may be fake of course and the timing may be anti-Turk, pro-Kurd propaganda. I'm not sure how effective it will be. It may only confirm many people's ideas about Middle Eastern barbarism.

Posted by: dh | Feb 2 2018 0:27 utc | 25

Russia could play a role in Afrin but they won’t. The Syrian army is certainly incapable of facing Turkey, now or in the future. So they play a waiting game : the invasion may generate sour feelings in Turkey (don’t count too much on it) and the Kurds will be weakened. Win-win ...

Posted by: DemiJohn | Feb 2 2018 0:52 utc | 26

The video is real but the female fighter's breasts have not been cut off. She was probably hit by an explosive ammo. Her nipples are intakt. However the video is presented as a torture case all over the world indicating some oproom propaganda material. Even in the article it is mistakingly seen as a torture incident. She's gone, friend or foe makes no difference. Let's hope that at least the guys who sold the weapons and the idea of a war to these fighters are enjoying a good life. That's the only bright side of it I can think of.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 0:53 utc | 27

Those poor young men. Conned into fighting. They probably hate guns really. Or maybe they just watched too many Rambo movies.

Posted by: dh | Feb 2 2018 0:59 utc | 28

Excellent post and discussion. Deepest regards and thanks to all.

We are on an undisclosed timeline that includes the olympics and mid term elections in the US. It also includes stale memories from another generation of the Ralph Peters map that broke off most of Eastern Turkey for a kurdish state.
Trump is managing to convince the Jews that he will give them everything they want, which will probably give him decisive control of Congress for two years. An accomplished opportunist but otherwise a foreign policy imbecile who prefers to let his "managers" call the shots, often in the process giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Gen. Votel, are you listening?
After a lifetime of not only kissing but licking Jewish ass I think Trump is actually sick of their endless demands and greed and would be only too happy to see them destroy themselves again, this time with the help of the soulless Chabad Machiavelli, Kirshcner.
Either Kaliningrad or Crimea will be attacked, soon. Putin has pulled back to be ready. Fortress America will be shocked.
So where does all this leave the Turks and their Neottomania? Friendless, deluded, and on the wrong foot, as ever history has recorded.

Posted by: mireille | Feb 2 2018 1:05 utc | 29

So many liars talking tosh it's tough to tell how committed Erdogan is to anything he spouts in his article of a few days ago headed On the ground in Afrin, it’s hard to know what Kurdish fighters really stand for Fisk writes from inside Afrin which he says is policed by Russians in the daytime altho some Kurd militias are also in view. The town seems pretty normal cause the fighting is still some distance away.
Fisk makes the point that although the mob in charge of Afrin claim to be nothing to do with the PKK:

or the very moment you cross from the Syrian army’s last checkpoint – red, white and black flags and a poster of Bashar al-Assad, his brother Maher, Hezbollah leader Hassan al-Nasrallah and prominent army colonel “Tiger” Suheil (please note the latter), you find yourself amid blue-and-white-coloured concrete ramps, the “star” banner of “Kurdistan” (which, like “Palestine”, does not exist) and a gigantic picture of Abdullah Ocalan, the PKK (Kurdish Workers Party) leader for whom the YPG has absolutely no connection whatsoever. Or so they tell you.
One thing is for sure judging by the general unpreparedness of everyone inside the North Western Syria Kurdish 'enclave', little Rex Tillerson really fucked up when he spouted off about a 30,000 person border protection force for kurdistan.
Now even ForeignPolicyDOTcom which has been about Tillerson's only consistent bulwark in the american media is putting the skids under Tillerson by describing his recent efforts to hire senior staff and generally straighten out State's mess as an attempt to gain altitude presumably to water down criticism before he is pushed or jumps.

Too bad about all the unwhite people getting killed because you can't run a brothel on a troopship eh Rex? When you think about it there can't be an easier gig than numero uno at Mobil Exxon - hunnerds of million a year for pumping oil outta Saudi and selling it to the mugs for an extortionate mark-up. If the Saudis are stupid enough to ignore their script all Rex had to do was get his lobbyists to phone the bargain basement bought forked tongued pricks in DC and tell em to do the sabre rattle while starting up the gunboats.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 2 2018 1:57 utc | 30

@Debs 29
. . .little Rex Tillerson really fucked up when he spouted off about a 30,000 person border protection force for kurdistan.
The border force formation was a military exercise, from the Pentagon not from State.
>Jan 15: "A strong border security force will prohibit Daesh's freedom of movement and deny the transportation of illicit materials," the coalition said. . .Turkey denounces US 'terror army' plan for border. . .Key powers involved in Syria's civil war have criticised US plans to help an allied Kurdish-led militia set up a 30,000-strong "border security force".
>Jan 17: U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson denied that the United States had any intention of building a Syria-Turkey border force and said the issue had been "misportrayed, misdescribed"."Some people misspoke. We are not creating a border security force at all,"

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 2 2018 2:17 utc | 31

28. Your invasion of Crimea or Kaliningrad is infantile.
1. Putin said if Russian Territory is attcked nuclear wepons will and can be used ie Tactical Nuclear wepon
2. So if Russia attacked WW3 starts so no need point 3

Posted by: col | Feb 2 2018 2:45 utc | 32

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 1, 2018 9:17:13 PM |
Indubitably correct altho I'm obliged to highlight that it was Wayne Tracker aka Tillerson's clumsy and facile attempt to put Erdogan off the scent by spouting obvious evasions as a weak arse attempt to "explain it all" which got Turkey really concerned. Until rex king of the lift tried to mollify Turkey there appears to have been a rather laissez faire languid attitude from the Turks who suspected that the pentagon was just doing it's usual "I got the biggest dick, so there" nonsense. Tillerson's mendacity caused them to sit up, cos if it was real enough to get rex to say something about it, there must be more than a gang of generals' verbal jerkery splattering the carpet.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 2 2018 4:00 utc | 33

@28 Red Ryder

Hard to believe such savagery is the norm in the 21st century.
It is only unbelievable if you have an unrealistic view of human history and human nature. If you are a citizen of a NATO country your government sponsors such savagery all the time and sends its own military to take part in the killing when called upon to do so.
War is always horrific, yet animalistic butchery is not forgivable.

There’s not much of a line seperating war and “animalistic butchery”. In one relativey minor incident in Iraq US soldiers played “soccer” with the heads of Iraqi civilians they had decapitaped with a 50mm machine gun for driving too close to a convoy. That kind of stuff happens in all wars. It’s not unusual and not even reported to superior officers most of the time. When civilization breaks down men become beasts and no animal kills and brutalizes its own as often and as savagely as homo sapiens. “Animalistic” butchery is a strictly human endeavour.

This has been happening every century since the dawn of human existence so why should the 21st be different? It is a myth that human morality and ethics progressively evolve. Natural selection plays no role here whatsoever and no matter where you live, when a society breaks down bad shit happens. Rape, murder, the vicious settling of scores between rivals and the strong dominating the weak just because they can.

The average Westerner who casually accepts the “humanitarian” wars and “regime change” operations done in his/her name really has no idea the levels of suffering this inflicts on the people of countries like Syria and Iraq who are forced to endure death, violence and economic deprivation for decades so that a few rich people can get richer and imperialistic nations can steal land and resources for their own use.

Luckily for them, Western capitalism is a sick dog that is slowly going mad and can no longer be brought to heel by the usual economic fiddling. Hence, decline and a steady descent into the kind of depraved environment that might eventually give them a taste of the savagery their passvity inflicts on millions of people they never see or hear or think about.

Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Feb 2 2018 4:24 utc | 34

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 1, 2018 7:25:08 PM | 23

Bashibazouk was the Ottoman version of medieval feudal "vassal armies" that each and every vassal of the Crown was obliged to commit in wars. They consisted mostly of native Muslims and Muslim nomadic tribes that Ottoman Turkey settled in newly conquered Christian (border) regions in Europe (see: Albanians). Similar to feudal practice, Bashibazouk were given land in exchange for taking part in military quests and counter-revolutions.

Bashibazouk had nothing to do with jihad as the latter is a "modern" (XVIII-XIX century) Wahhabi/Takfiri militant concept that twisted the words of Qur'an.

Posted by: LXV | Feb 2 2018 5:59 utc | 35

Caught red handed!

It seems that the current stage of campaign is falling apart. The Western league didn't properly prepare for the occupation of Syria? The US led Coalition and PKK (YPG) partners are making too many mistakes. The Coalition is going to end up admitting they have been supporting the Terrorists and they will have to leave Syria?


‏ @AlSuraEnglish

#BREAKING - Google backup of ANF article stating #Kurdish fighter Barîn Kobanê blew herself up with a grenade to prevent capture and kill #Turkish backed forces is now available.

‏ @AlSuraEnglish

#BREAKING - #Kurdish media associated with #YPG identifies Barîn Kobanê as a suicide bomber who used a grenade to blow herself up when #Turkish backed forces approached to avoid capture and inflict damage on them. ANF Media has since deleted their article in Kurdish and Turkish.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 9:03 utc | 36

Posted by: LXV | Feb 2, 2018 12:59:20 AM | 34

Bashibazouk had nothing to do with jihad as the latter is a "modern" (XVIII-XIX century) Wahhabi/Takfiri militant concept that twisted the words of Qur'an.
Frankly, Nonsense. There are books about the history of jihad. Read one.

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 2 2018 11:02 utc | 37

Stop spreading propaganda. The tourched female fighter was a suicide bomber. Confirmed by YPG media.

Posted by: Guz | Feb 2 2018 12:38 utc | 38

"many years of bloody civil war" (Piotr Berman), "Syrian regime" (ConfusedPundit), could the commenters using this newspeak terminology also start their comments with it? It's a time saver that will enable to read faster through the comments when skipping BS.

Of course, Syria doesn't face a civil war but an assymetric war from abroad conducted by outside players such as US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel. The government controlled parts of Syria are not led by a regime but by an elected government.

Posted by: oak tree | Feb 2 2018 12:52 utc | 39

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 2, 2018 6:02:52 AM | 36

"Déclenché" much? Supposedly you've read a book about the history of jihad, yet you have no idea that jihad has nothing to do with Ottoman Turkey prior to 1914.

Posted by: LXV | Feb 2 2018 13:27 utc | 40

The Turks may have been caught in a proxy war of sorts. Southfront is reporting that Assad is letting the YPG in the East access into Afrin to fight the Turks through Syrian territory. Turkey is reluctant to invade YPG East, at least before their Afrin project is over, because the U.S. is located there.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Feb 2 2018 14:19 utc | 41

For Bamdad Iran and SISI attention

Here is the New Iran Poll conducted by U. Maryland it was conducted after the recent demonstrations and conduct wide range of questions, Method of Conducting the poll can also be accessed. Bamdad Iran , and Ms SISI should take a close look. BTW same ziocon infasted WP has this to say

"The poll, released on Friday by the Center for International and Security Studies at Maryland (CISSM) and IranPoll, found comparatively little support for changing Iran's political system or relaxing strict Islamic law and suggested criticism of Iranian foreign policy in Syria and Iraq was not as widely shared by the general population."

Posted by: kooshy | Feb 2 2018 14:29 utc | 42


Kurds did the dirty work for the Turks during the Armenian genocide. As a reward, they were allowed to keep the most attactive young Armenian women as trophies.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 2 2018 14:33 utc | 43

@ LXV 39
Jihad sure has something to do with Islam since 630AD.
As for Ottoman Turkey, jihad might not have been as trendy as it is now; on the other hand, massacres and mass murders sure had something to do with it.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 2 2018 14:36 utc | 44

The IED attack in al qaeda country is interesting. Could there be local syrian jihadis who are angry about various turk betrayals (Aleppo comes to mind) who could be bribed to cause trouble and sow discord between the Turks and their jihadi friends?

Is that too much wishful thinking?

Posted by: Pespi | Feb 2 2018 15:18 utc | 45

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 2, 2018 9:36:20 AM | 43

Sure it has, though not in the "traditional" Western understanding (and translation) of the word as "Holy War". You should thank Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the ideological grandfather of your beloved Saudi Barbarian allies, for your modern 'Murican (mis)conception of the meaning of jihad.

(You could've at least read the Wiki page before replying.)

Posted by: LXV | Feb 2 2018 15:35 utc | 46

Dear oak tree (38)

Apologies then.

We can't count the punches in a fight. I favour a united Syria led by His Excellency Assad, at least for the time being. That'll be good for everyone in the neighborhood. A pan-regional policy is good.

The Golan Heights belong to Syria too.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 15:57 utc | 47

Thanks for playing dumb, but I'm not American and am not Saudi-lover or ally. Heck, would it depend on me, I wouldn't mind wiping out the whole country, with any means necessary, and even if it means having to let go of all that oil forever.
As for jihad, it's not as if it hadn't been used in its holy war way since Muhammad's time already. It's rather the Jihad as "inner struggle to improve yourself" which is the nice explanation told to unbeliever dogs to confuse them and mislead them on the islamists' actual intentions and goals - obfuscation used since the Middle-Ages, mind you.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 2 2018 17:05 utc | 48

@44 pepsi.. obviously anything is possible and that is possible..

Posted by: james | Feb 2 2018 17:41 utc | 49

Erdogan is doing a classic PR job internally, that cost little at start and reward high. The problems, the reward (short term elections and public support) will erode with time while the costs of war remains. Worse, the war may extend to SAA (RuA S400 ?) or the rest of Kurds (USAF? - how long can he plays Incirlik card) and the costs will skyrocket. There will be direct costs for the economy, and indirect costs under the form of EU economic retaliations which should not be long to pop.

Posted by: murgen | Feb 2 2018 18:49 utc | 50


Erdogan = Clint Eastwood. The good guy.

He is on a safari. He wants to shoot a few bad guys.

I hope you don't think Erdogan is a bad guy? He is a better chap than Bliar, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Merkel, Sarkozy and Macron at the least of it.

1) The (German and French dominated) EU doesn't have any courage to respond with economic retaliations against Turkey. All they can do is to cry like spoilt children. The EU you are talking about have more serious economic problems themselves. Currently the Turks are friendly with the Brexit guys anyway. The Turks are assertive, they will not back down. Let's see the EU's false teeth now, so they say, but I don't know which side is bluffing. Fingers crossed.

2) I thought wars helped stimulate economies? Turks are utterly happy to be at war. What's bugging whom? BTW, the Turks are rebuilding their armed forces. Thanks to the U.S. led NATO attack VIA Gulenists and TERRORISTS on Turkey the TAF have a few bruises to care for.

3) The Turks are saying that there is a national security issue at the moment. This is what they often say in the media and in the streets: when it's the Homeland in question, the details are irrelevant. They'll probably ally with the Russians, Iranians, Syrians, Arabs and help send the CFO (Coalition for Occupation) back home. Their presence is a serious threat to the Turks. US+NATO are seen as hostile entities.

4) Not Erdogan, all Turkish citizens, bar a few agents, think like that.

5) Turks will probably stay in Syria for at least another 30 years. They went to Cyprus in 1974 and they are still there.


Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 20:20 utc | 51

from their role in the barbary slave trade to the ottoman empire in general and the armenian genocide - turkey has always been a shit stain on the region along with israel and the gulf states. and of course i'm not saying every single turk is a psychotic prick...just that every single turk i've ever met in person or seen on social media is a psychotic prick. other than serena shim and her mum, i guess.

my generalizations aside, funny how the turks for years have whined about "kurdish terrorists" but then turn around and use apes like these to do their dirty work (not that they invented or even perfected the tactic in comparison to various allies). in a perfect world the syrians would simply push the kurds north across the border - with all their US-supplied arms, naturally - to wipe up and occupy the area and give themselves a nice little buffer zone that any future salafist hessians will have to traverse if they want to cut off random heads and breasts. if the israelis can keep grabbing pieces of golan every day then what leg would the west have to stand on arguing against it?

it's fun to dream.

Posted by: the pair | Feb 2 2018 20:24 utc | 52

@ the pair | Feb 2, 2018 3:24:24 PM | 53
„..just that every single turk i've ever met in person or seen on social media is a psychotic prick.“
A matter of perspective. I have many Turkish friends, but I must admit that an overproportional amount of Turks that I know are ass... similar to my European home country. And an overproportional amount of them are dear friends. Such generalizations are BS and just express a brain to lazy to dig deeper into another culture. BTW: do you speak Turkish?

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 2, 2018 3:20:22 PM | 52
Nice to view the narratives that they try to sell in Turkey at present. "Not Erdogan, all Turkish citizens, bar a few agents, think like that.“ Seriously? My experience is different to say the least.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 2 2018 20:36 utc | 53

Turkey is a brutal nation. It has a pitiless and unmerciful past. Syria alone, for centuries suffered from them. During World War One, Beirute--part of Syria always--was ravaged in many ways. Its men used as fodder to fight against Ottoman enemies. Its food confiscated and taken away (for ottoman soldiers) from the people where starvation resulted. They have no right to Syria today. The Kurds have no right to separate. If minorities in countries across the world started during this world chaos would be worse than it is. Then come the Americans to steal the oil. The oil that belongs to Syria. The oil that would rebuild the Syria the two countries talked about is this message destroyed. At least a trillion dollars would be needed to redevelop. Syria the beautiful. The country in history that gave the world an alphabet that would help eventually develop throughout Europe several languages...Moon of Alabama Rocks...truth my man. Truth and integrity. That's you.

Posted by: charles | Feb 2 2018 20:57 utc | 54

@ConfusedPundit @36

"Caught red handed"

The Kurdish agency issued breaking news item that turned out to be wrong, then retracted and deleted it. Standard procedure.

Watch the video. The cloths was moved aside after the women died. The breasts were cut off. There are no signs of a hand-grenade impact.

Posted by: b | Feb 2 2018 21:31 utc | 56

I hope by now everyone understands the adverstising of unconcionable brutality, such as the staged carving up of this unfortunate woman, who is said to be Kurdish but truthfully who knows, is a weapon of psychological warfare used by psychopaths to keep the rest of us in line.

The war in Syria, like the war in Vietnam before it, is concerned with achieving domestic objectives relating to control of the space in between your ears.

Unfortunately, whether it is intentional or not, you are reinforcing the monsters of our collective nightmares, b.

Posted by: C I eh? | Feb 2 2018 21:34 utc | 57

Dear b (56)

Yes they were. Surely you wouldn't want me to start off with the big bang theory? Right from the beginning?

I quoted Sura vs. Sura. It's up there in my post. Sura retrieved the 'web cache' and the link is on their social media account. I checked it and double checked it elsewhere. I did this for myself. I don't care what one side or the other says. The PKK and the foreign supporters got caught red handed. IMHO.

IM another HO, the breasts were not cut off only the lower parts of her breasts were damaged along with the rest of her torso where the grenade explosion made an impact. Most of her breasts, including the niples, are intact. Who is the butcher, Jeffrey Dahmer in slow motion? Get on with it, cut them off properly will you!

This is another one I came across myself today and I found it very funny.

‏ @vvanwilgenburg (propaganda only)

#Afrin update. "Moral still high in Afrin"
(A video of people singing downtown)

Mutlu Civiroglu (propaganda only)
‏@mutludc (VOA on his profile)

'This is a massacre': Turkey's bombs drive families into caves @CNNI @realDonaldTrump #Afrin

LOL. Hysterical propaganda efforts. I'm sure it gets them somewhere but I've had a lot of spinach to protect myself against such rubbish.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 22:13 utc | 58

Dear Hausmeister,

Yes, seriously.

Most of the people. Except the CHP admin body + HDP.

You know what they say here? If the CHP's executive body went on a holiday and came back 1 year later, their voters wouldn't notice their absence. So if you get contradictory remarks from their voters then worry not, they'll confirm me when they realise their father they run after as ugly ducklings is a fradulent wolf.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 22:25 utc | 59

Dear charles and the pair,

I can only vouch for myself. For me, the baddies have no nationalities. They are just bad people. The good folks can have nationalities and race and gender, whatever they like, I don't feel threatened by them. They are the good people, they get carte blanche from me, what harm could they cause to me? Aren't they good people? Simple logic, and it works for me. Highly recommended, try it.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 2 2018 22:33 utc | 60

Posted by: LXV | Feb 2, 2018 8:27:05 AM | 40

"Déclenché" much? Supposedly you've read a book about the history of jihad, yet you have no idea that jihad has nothing to do with Ottoman Turkey prior to 1914.
The truly ignorant are those who only read modern history. For the American experience, I'd recommend Michael Bonner,
Jihad in Islamic history, Princeton 2006. I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's a start.

Jihad, perhaps not under that name, started in the late 8th century, with 70,000 religious volunteers accompanying the Abbasid Caliph al-Mahdi's army invading Anatolia. From where else did Europeans get the idea of Crusade?

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 3 2018 0:47 utc | 61

Its been almost two weeks and the Turks and there Takfir allies are still mired along the border. It looks to me like this move is a typical Turkish FIASCO. Fucked in Afrin Situation Completely Opposite Expectation.

Posted by: mark kaufmann | Feb 3 2018 1:35 utc | 62

Jihad, perhaps not under that name, started in the late 8th century, with 70,000 religious volunteers accompanying the Abbasid Caliph al-Mahdi's army invading Anatolia. From where else did Europeans get the idea of Crusade?
Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 2, 2018 7:47:49 PM | 61

Holy War is a much older idea. Zoroastrians were fighting with Christians before Islam was invented, to give one example. It was actually particularly acute just before newly Muslim Arab invaded Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran etc., and this was the reason why Byzantines and Persians were so depleted at that time. Several hundred years earlier, Jews were forcibly converting conquered Samaritans and Edomites. Their earlier exploits of that nature, recorded in the Bible, are probably purely mythological, but the idea was there.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 3 2018 2:33 utc | 63

mark kaufman @62

But why did Erdogan make such an ill-fated move? Was he unaware of the Kurds determination and their US support? Of course not! Did he over-estimate the strength of his own military? Of course not!

Besides the obvious (temporary) domestic propaganda boast for Erdogan that comes from “fighting terrorists”, I’ve proposed two possible answers:

1) Russia forced Erdogan to attack the Kurds as both a loyalty test and to punish the Kurds (the done attack on the Russian base was launched from Turkish-controlled territory);

2) Erdogan convinced Russia to allow them to attack Russia - so as to help the ’Assad must go!’ Coalition to scuttle the Sochi talks.

I think the latter is more likely (partly because I think the attempted coup was a sham). In either case Erdogan is making a show that will not last.

Confirmation? ConfusedPundit came to MoA just in time to tell us how righteous and determined Erdogan is wrt his action against the Kurds.

<> <> <> <> <>
PS Some have suggested that Erdogan’s attack on the Kurds is a plan to have the Jihadis and Kurds exhaust themselves so that SAA can more easily take territory that they control. That might be smart but I’ve also seen reports that Assad is allowing Kurds to reinforce Afrin.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 3 2018 3:14 utc | 64

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 2, 2018 5:25:03 PM | 59

Well, what you write is opposite to the news I get from friends there. As those reports have been exact in the past I prefer them. The main attitude seems to be a kind of „neo-Biedermeier“ atmosphere. You keep your opinion instead of making it public, you stop to believe in anything from the official media, like people behaved in the Nazi time here or later behind the Iron curtain. What you write I remember from my families tales. The atmosphere 1938-1941, about. I want to save pain from you and will not continue with their tales covering 1944-1948.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 3 2018 8:37 utc | 65

Dear mark kaufmann

The Turks do not consider OpOliveBranch as a 'fiasco' as you put it. Instead this is how they describe it:

1) They have started the AfrinOp despite the PKK, Western, Syrian (Iran+Russia too) opposition to it. Turks see this as a successful (#1) diplomatic maneuver.

2) TAF had 72 fighter jets in the air on the first they of the campaign. 108 out of 113 PKK targets were hit bullseye. Having so many aircrafts flying over a very small area is something only a few armies in the world can achieve (success story #2) and 95% success rate in hitting the designated targets is a big deal (success story #3) according to the Turks.

3) Turks could've entered Afrin via Jarablous. All military books in the world see it as the most advantageous option. However the Turks have chosen the 'Cresent Tactic' which they have been using in battles for centuries. (TAF uniforms have B.C. 209 embroidered on them) Check the current map. First stage of the The Cresent Formation is complete.(success story #5)

4) Hey, where is the #4? The succsess story #4 according to the Turks is this: After the airal campaign 7 beachead entries were made into the region (without a single casualty). This a record breaking op by military standards.

5) Unlike the U.S. armed forces and the Russians and the Syrian regime forces who indiscriminately attack their targets (the US does it mistakingly very often) resulting in many civilian casualties, the Turks take utmost care in their campaign not to cause any colletaral damage. PKK and EU supporters do complain a lot about it. In addition, the public opinion is fed with 'this is Erdogan's War' propaganda. Any TAF casualty hurts both the govt and the TAF. So the Turks are taking their time (they are not late as you put it) and there are 5 TAF KIAs so far as opposed to 900 PKK KIAs. Success story #6

6) Mired alonged the border? 7 pockets are slowly made to connect with each other. Check the war maps. Turks aim at capturing hill tops. Bursaya, Bulbul are under TAF control? Success story #7

7) Erdogan said he wouldn't talk with Trump unless Potus called him. Did Trump call him? Yes. The U.S. govt. officials, pentagon staff are hysterical? Daily statements? Are you following Tillerson, Matis etc statements? So what's bugging them if there is a Turkish 'FIASCO' as you put it? Success story #8

8) TAF is in Afrin. They say they knew it anyway but they can now clearly see that the US+EU have been lying too the world (as usual) all along. A lot of data is being collected from the region proving it is the Turks who are being terrorised by the US+EU proxies of Israel not the 'Kurds' by dictator Erdogan as they present it.

9) I'm not saying all these things to change your mind. It is the other side of the coin. I'm saying it just for the hell of it, mirroring the local thoughts. I see the Syrians and the Russians winning the most with respect to the Turkish incursion in to Afrin.

10) 10 points for your patience if you read it all. Have a drink on me. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 3 2018 9:23 utc | 66

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 2, 2018 5:25:03 PM | 59

It comes to my mind that most readers here have no idea about the facts of political life inside Turkey. You are very optimistic, other people see it opposite. So let us look into the details:

One of the top advisors of Erdogan, Yigit Bulut, was gaining attention just recently.
“We will break the arms and legs of officials, of the Prime Minister and any Minister, who dares to step on the Kardak/Imia islet in the Aegean,” he claimed. Source. Unfortunately the guy is not that much popular outside of Turkey. Let me help him.

When he got his new job he was welcomed by this article:

"I am at least consoling myself with the fact that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has now one of the best forecasters in the world at his side. Journalist, economist (I am using both words quite liberally) and above all conspiracy theorist Yiğit Bulut, who recently argued that foreign powers were trying to assassinate Erdoğan by telekinesis, was appointed as chief adviser to the PM on July 9.
Bulut noted in his column in Turkish daily Vatan back in 2008 that Turkey was turning into a police state and looking more and more like Adolf Hitler’s Germany. The country was shifting from democracy to fascism, with the press under a lot of pressure, he warned. Here is a guy who could accurately see five years ahead, whereas most other analysts, your friendly neighborhood economist included, have no idea what’s going to happen five days from now.
Joking aside, since Bulut, which means cloud in Turkish, firmly believes in the existence of the interest rate lobby, even without a visit to Amsterdam, the Central Bank will have a really tough time raising rates even if it wants to."

The guy is famous in Turkey. After heavy protests of mine workers in Soma, Western Anatolia, against Erdogan police tried to stop the protests. One guy they smashed to the ground. In this moment Bulut showed up and hit the back of the guy that was lying on the ground with this shoes.
Such comittment was of course a good reason to promote the guy quite soon.

So, my dear ConfusedPundit, I start to understand: if one has to support such guys with such supporters from certain reasons one ultimately gets - confused.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 3 2018 9:41 utc | 67

Jackrabbit (64)

You are pretty close.

Only that you still think Israel+US+EU+NATO coup attempt in Turkey is a sham. You won't change your mind.

I think the US+EU should do something about it because there are US+EU citizens in Turkish jails. There are arrest warrants for some CIA personnel too.

Why keep quiet one may ask if you think you are innocent? You are afraid of the Clint Erdogan Eastwood? Get your men out of the Turkish jails! Protest for it! Free Aung San Suu Kyi, Freedom to Ocalan, Freedom to high profile US+EU citizens!

Or I may begin to think you have many Pol Pots, Goebbels guys in your part of the world and who are pulling your leg. LOL.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 3 2018 9:54 utc | 68

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 3, 2018 4:54:19 AM | 68

"I think the US+EU should do something about it because there are US+EU citizens in Turkish jails. There are arrest warrants for some CIA personnel too."

Yes, let us put things easy. Turkey just opens a court case against them, but now. There was enough time to prepare it. Then you show the witnesses you have. Hournalistic reports about whatever are kept outside of this issue. In case you cannot show your material in the public as the Secret Services do not want to release their sources you just set them free. Problem solved.
To further improve the image outside Turkey you immediately stop to tolerate official contacts between the Turkish ladership and gangsters in Germany. "Osmanen Germania" they are called. The biggest drug dealers in Gernany, as hearsay claims, are Yazidi Kurds. Not your problem. But that Erdogan courts mobsters should not be continued, taints patriotic unity.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 3 2018 10:16 utc | 69

Woke up this morning to some really grey weather and then I read this and the day got a bit brighter.

"Speaking to reporters Friday at the Pentagon, Defense Secretary James Mattis admitted that the US has no evidence Syria has used sarin gas in the course of the Syrian War, though he threatened a harsh US reaction if Syria did so."

After all the alleged attacks, you would think that the United States would have some evidence, but NO EVIDENCE after several years suggests that the allegations are false. And yes, for all the "progressives" I am aware that the absence of any evidence does not prove that the Syrian government hasn't used sarin gas, but the probability that it has must now be regarded as close to zero.
How are Bellingcat and all the usual suspects going to explain this away? And Obama was right not to attack after East Ghouta and Trump was wrong to attack after Khan Shaykhoun. At first I thought this might be Mattis sticking it to the CIA which lurks in the background of the FBI/Doj operation against Trump and then I thought it might be Mattis sticking it to Trump for his unwarrented response after Khan Shaykhoun. We certainly live in interesting if not completely fucked up times. What to think? What to think?

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Feb 3 2018 10:50 utc | 70

>>>> Ghost Ship | Feb 3, 2018 5:50:18 AM | 70
Actually, I hope to see Bellingcat, Charles Lister, and the other usual suspect's heads explode from cognitive dissonance now that they've become the "tin hats", but perhaps they are too stupid to understand what Mattis said or perhaps MI6 has provided them with Kevlar balaclavas for this very eventuality so we'll only see their eyes, noses, lips and tongues go pop. Either way not a pretty sight but it does have its pleasures.
On the other hand the western propaganda outlets like the NY Times, Washington Post and Guardian will quickly bury this story if the report it at all.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Feb 3 2018 11:00 utc | 71

>>>> Ghost Ship | Feb 3, 2018 6:00:00 AM | 71

Or perhaps we're going to see claims that Mattis is Putin or Assad's BFF.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Feb 3 2018 11:29 utc | 72

Hausmeister | Feb 3, 2018 4:41:57 AM | 67

I agree with you and it seems that you have a very detailed map of Turkey.

However, your map is 2D if you don't take some other things into account.

Let's make the map multidimensional.

"Joking aside, since Bulut, which means cloud in Turkish, firmly believes in the existence of the interest rate lobby, even without a visit to Amsterdam, the Central Bank will have a really tough time raising rates even if it wants to."

"The Interest Rate Lobby" is an euphemism for Zionists (which is an euphemism for Jews) here. The local people get it but for outsiders who take the face value, it could be a little confusing.

So for the locals here Erdogan is democratic. For you he looks autocratic or even he is a fascist. Or even he is an Islamo-fascist.

I think he is though. He admits it openly as well. Is it just him though, are there outside forces who want to see him more radical for future PRS operations for it is the globalists who are the most ardent supports of ethnical Turkish supremacy and there could be more embedded within the Islamic radicals, jihadists, who want to behead 'infidels' as a past time hobby.

What I'm trying to say is that I read the articles and comments but as a local guy I find that there is more to it than meets the eye and the case of 'interest rate lobby' is just one example I can give you to ponder about.
Things are going to get more complicated soon. The Kurdish 'intelligentsia' believe that the Greek Civilization is actually based on Kurdish Civilization and that Nefertiti and Nefertari are Kurdish ladies, Sumerians, Urartus, any civilization, not just the Meds, you can think of in the region is Kurdish. Maths, geography, sufism, religions, space observatories, horse riding, yoghurt, first carpets and rugs in the world are all Kurdish. Adam is also Kurdish. Honestly, this is what they say. This is not a joke in a book. I can give you the links. It's everywhere, every meeting, every symposium, in every book, it's out of control in the region, self confidence Erdogan or post-AKP Turkey will have tough times countering all these things without resorting to some degree of fascism.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 3 2018 14:36 utc | 73

@Mark Kauffman — the relationship described between Russia and
Turkey makes no sense, does not match any tangible
data, evel less the obvious and less obvious strategic

I have problem with the entire article on the approach to
the analysis of the Afrin conflict. Pay attention to Tel Abyad.
Afrrin is about smuggljng from Turkish PKK,
across Afrin to Idlib. It is the Turkish PKK that
Has been the lifeblood of supply chain to Kurds
in Syria as well as the West approved “moderate”
Al-Qaeda and its numerous associated
free lancers. Al-Qaeda, former Nusra and nowdays
HTS is in control of supplies, and has decimated
whatever Free Syrian Army in Idlib, unless it
swears allegance. Kurds did the same thing in
all areas they “liberated” just to arrest all prominent
Arabs, and have them in a televised display of
ruthlessnes, swear allegance to Kurds. Then
Kurds appointed them to run the municipal
Affairs. How many places it had to happen for us
to catch the clue. Tel Abyad — a model of ethnic
cleansing, forced loyalty oaths, mire ethnic
alterations. Manbij, Raqqa, all the way down Euphrates
valley, and Turkish border. Afrin smuggling is
the target, and Syria will profit from it in Idlib.
Some tunnels have been found already.
I am not finding Kurds and their YPG any more
palatabe then Turkish militia. Most Turkish militia
has been recruited from the refugees that ISIS and
Kurds created along the border. Erdogan must jnow
That he has a dodgy military, that under NATO
and amidst various coup threats attrofied. This
army was not alliwed to purchase Patriot
defences. The performance st Al-Bab was
illustration of the above. This operration, likely
to be long, will be the impetus for some
retirements and modernization of military.

Posted by: Bianca | Feb 3 2018 17:50 utc | 74

Bianca 74: Is that a presumed alliance of "Anti-Turkish" proxies (of Israel? and KSA?)? I know that radical leftists (particularly those with - rarely enough nowadays - sort of a regional political monopoly) often have weird fractions and convoluted tactics and confused ideologies (is not Ocalan himself said to have gone through a genuine racist episode in his thought development?). This, though, comes a bit surprising - any links or hints suggesting such smuggling relations? And what about the Aleppo province passage, let alone the occupied Euphrates shield territory?

ConfusedPundit 73 Who ever has argued that fascist leaders cannot be popular? I think it was Hausmeister who provided the standard reference: Hitler during 1938-41. The problem with fighting culturalists by trying to outdo them is no valid criticism - in fact, it is a confirmation - and, even worse, a display of one's own culturalist way of thinking.

Maybe, nationalism can be defined as the idea of being heir of a certain portion of history (mostly a gratifying one), and not (as in fact every human) of the entire chunk (facing the challenge to make sense of it).

Posted by: franziska | Feb 3 2018 19:57 utc | 75

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 3, 2018 9:36:45 AM | 73

"The Interest Rate Lobby" is an euphemism for Zionists (which is an euphemism for Jews) here. The local people get it but for outsiders who take the face value, it could be a little confusing.“
I would call it an euphemism for the traditional antisemitism of the uneducated lower stratum of Turkey. Plus: everbody in the Near East seems to be infected with a safe and strong believe into simplistic conspirady „theories“.
"Things are going to get more complicated soon."

Not complicated. The same nonsense Atatürk started, Adam was a Turk, whatelse. We have at least 100 years of old right idiocies. Some of the Armenians in the diaspora do it. Shall we name such clowns intellectuals just for the fact that they are Kurds?

So I am more curious about your estimation of the fact that this Bulut is an official adviser of Erdogan and still runs free.

And how you evaluate it that Erdogan keeps relations with the organized criminal circles. So desperate that everybody who is Turk is a friend? As the only friends Turks can have are other Turks?

@ Bianca | Feb 3, 2018 12:50:47 PM | 74
Some sources for such claims available?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 3 2018 20:17 utc | 76

And ZH is reporting the following development in Syria:

Russian Fighter Jet Shot Down By Syrian Rebels, Pilot Killed

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 3 2018 21:22 utc | 77

@ Hausmeister | Feb 3, 2018 3:17:24 PM | 76

I'm not sure that the trend what's clearly on the rise in Turkey can be classified as 'antisemitism'.
Maybe it is anti-Israelism? Or anti-Zionism?

The AKP, the Kemalist and the Nationalist intelligentsia appear daily on TV for discussions and they openly express anti-Israel sentiments like never before. So I don't think we can blame only Erdogan and his party for it.

I say euphemism because it used to be a taboo to talk about such matters and it looks like we are in transition to a fully blown version of anti-Israelism. Because we are next to the war zone? Because Turks view PKK = Cocoon, PKKistan = caterpillar and Greater Israel = Butterfly?

There is no smoke if there is no fire.

There used to be millions of photos of Israeli flags next to Kurdish flags circulating in the world media. That annoyed the Turks. But after Barzani's mistake in occupying the Turkmen town of Kirkuk and the AfrinOp, those Israeli flags have disappeared from our views. Maybe the Israelis want to be around when everything is going as planned but when Turks target the PKK the Israelis do not want to be associated with the losing party?

Instead of straightforward symbolism they get on with the usual approach which is less visible to the general public.

Michael Rubin
"Americans in Turkey face possible assassination"
"In #Afrin, Turkey seeks ethnic cleansing, not terror eradication,"

People like these are like naughty little kittens who make two big dogs fight with each other.
And the Turks do get annoyed because of these things and the result is anti-Israelism.

The AKP grassroots hate Atatürk. They believe he was a Spanish Jew who took the Islamic Ottoman Empire from them. I was brought up with Kemalist philosophy. Was he a Jewish person? I don't know. But I do know that even a slightest hesitation like I showed now about him 'I don't now' is a blasphemous act in the eyes of the Kemalists. Atatürk created a country and wanted to fill it with a nation and the Kurds believe they have a nation in their pocket but not a country.

Erdogan also thinks he has a Nation, a nation of Islam, but his territory is confined to a smaller piece of land. Maybe that's why he is called a Neo-Ottomanist. Turkey has always been struggling with the idea of a Dormant Imperialism. People were burning with desire to find an excuse for going back to the olden days, since my childhood, all around me, this is what I heard.

Mr. Bulut once married to the niece of the owner of Dogan Media, his hurriyetdailynews often quoted here, used to criticise Erdogan. He was a freshman, having just returned from his economics studies in the U.S., he did write some articles criticising the "Dictator". He got divorced, recruited by AKP and voila! he began to defend the party official line. AKP liked him because they didn't have an outspoken economist to place against the Tesev economists who were on TV everyday. Tesev, the most notorious Soros NGO in the country, is also responsible for the bringing the current opposition leader to power. Mr. Bulut sticks around Erdogan, the Tesev economists have since disappeared from our views in our daily lives.

Mr. Bulut's relative Mr. Dogan's paper, the most influential paper, Hurriyet, as I mentioned earlier, had this slogan on the front page 'Turkey belongs to the Turks'. Yet, Dogan and Tesev are on the same team. A Turk's friend can only be another Turk is another frequently used slogan. Also there is the 'Turan' megaloidea. But Gulen gave a photo with traditional Turkish clothes for Turkic republics in the Eurasia. What's the message, don't expect help from them because I (on behalf of CIA) control them? Erdogan's speech on TV the other day was quite different to the ones I heard from him so far. He gave a description of a Nation. There are Muslim, Christian and Jewish Nations he said. That is confusing because he is an Islamist, Ummah is a nation for the religious people and Millet is a nation for the nationalists and Ulus is a nation for the lefwing Kemalist people. We don't know which is waiting for us in the future. So Erdogan is friendly with some organised crime cricles (he needs them in case he'll need some enemies assassinated abroad as it was the case in the assassination of Asala leaders? Perhaps perhaps perhaps) he wants the Turanists, he wants help from the Kemalists he once put in jail because the Gulenists wanted him so (on behalf of the USA), and he needs anybody he can think of outside the Globalists' or Imperialists' reach. There are more compradores and traitors in Turkey. There are still far too many Soros controlled bodies. Erdogan can't touch them because the ones he kicked out or put in jail are called journalists, businessmen, politicians, the leaders of democratic institutions, NGOs and pressure groups in the 'civilised' and 'democratic' world. To Erdogan they are traitors (they are actually) but to the western world they are their apparatchik and therefore are a neccessary evil to keep Turkey as a vassal. The West is yelling at Erdogan and why do you think is that? Because their nails stuck in the belly of the country are cut too deep by Erdogan. Now what would you do if you were in Erdogan's shoes?

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 0:26 utc | 78

Turkey is in a state of war with United States of America.

This is what they are saying here.

A PKK TOW2 hit a Turkish tank killing 6 soldiers today. TOW2.

I think tensions are high because of what? What is at stake?

Meanwhile there are so many fake news targeting Turkey now I'm unable to keep track off.
Haven't seen so many fake news incidents in my whole life!

CNN attaches a photo from 2015 refugee crisis.

Turkish border guards are shooting at Syrian refugees, rights group says

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 0:50 utc | 79

And now ZH is reporting on the Russian response to the downed jet and killed pilot

Video Captures Cruise Missile Strike On Militants That Shot Down Russian Fighter Jet In Syria

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 4 2018 2:44 utc | 80

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 3, 2018 7:50:58 PM | 79

Turkey will be in a state of war with Russia, too. They were meant to be in control of Idlib, remember? Not send their proxies to fight in Afrin.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 4 2018 3:43 utc | 81

add to 81 - Russia needs to know who supplied Syria rebels with manpads

As far as military losses go, "the loss of one aircraft is nothing, but politically it has great significance and far-reaching consequences," Klintsevich said. Other lawmakers are concerned about how the militants could have acquired the anti-aircraft weapon. "We have information that the MANPADS used to bring down our jet was brought into Syria from a neighboring country several days ago," MP Dmitry Sablin, coordinator of the Russia-Syria parliamentary friendship group, told Interfax. "Countries from whose territory weapons arrive, that are then used against Russian servicemen, must understand that whis will not go unpunished," he added.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 4 2018 3:51 utc | 82

Here is a China net link about the downed Russian plane, killed pilot and response.

Russia strikes back after fighter jet downed, pilot killed

Here is an interesting quote at the end to consider if accurate
Russia reportedly spent an average of 156 million rubles (2.6 million U.S. dollars) every day in the past few years on military operations against terrorist groups in Syria.

That works out to be a bit less than a billion US dollars a year. And how much has the US wasted for how many years?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 4 2018 5:13 utc | 83

@82 somebody... thanks.. i was just going to post that.. maybe i will for double effect.. it sound ominous...

""We have information that the MANPADS used to bring down our jet was brought into Syria from a neighboring country several days ago," MP Dmitry Sablin, coordinator of the Russia-Syria parliamentary friendship group, told Interfax. "Countries from whose territory weapons arrive, that are then used against Russian servicemen, must understand that this will not go unpunished," he added."

removed the typo...

Posted by: james | Feb 4 2018 5:15 utc | 84

somebody | Feb 3, 2018 10:43:56 PM | 81

I wouldn't be surprised. Russia needs Kurds too. Turks are not good chess players.


Turkish media published a photo of Gulen receiving his followers from Kyrgyzstan. Just speculating, I think he is telling Erdogan not to expect help from Turkic republics in case of an emergency.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 7:42 utc | 85

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 2:42:30 AM | 85

I suppose Turkish media would not publish this photo against the interests of Erdogan.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 4 2018 9:18 utc | 86

somebody | Feb 4, 2018 4:18:14 AM | 86

They did. Please find the example link below. Gulen sends messages through his photos and video sermons.
His photos are like the Economist covers, everyone tries to decipher them. LOL.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 9:36 utc | 87

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 4:36:17 AM | 87
A little help for you as from Turkey you cannot call any Wikipedia sites:

"Odatv - Wikipedia is a Turkish news website. It was founded in 2007 by Soner Yalçın and Cüneyt Özdemir; Özdemir soon left after a difference of opinion. It was described in 2012 by the Committee to Protect Journalists as "an ultranationalist website harshly critical of the government". Since early 2011 it is the centre of the Ergenekon trials, with Odatv accused of being the "media arm" of the Ergenekon organization. Eight of its journalists are under indictment in connection with the case, which Reporters without Borders has called "absurd".

That means: sycophants of Erdogan these days.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 9:46 utc | 88

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 4:46:43 AM | 88


We have access to Wikipedia by simply adding a 0 (zero) to the domain name.

I can also have access to any site I wanted. I know the means as a veteran surfer since 93.

Odatv is a controversial source for everyone. If sycophant, they are in a different league.
A massive headline 'PYD Hits Turkish Tank' is not the sycophants we know of tend to use.
Some critiques claim that Odatv is not under Soner's control and that they are closely monitoring the site's dubious aura.

Paranoia is at it's highest level in the country. The enemy must be very happy.

BTW, I hope you are following the main opposition's Kurultay. KK, his delegates, like Hitler and his team.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 11:43 utc | 89

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 6:43:51 AM | 89

Thank you! Does it work with a Turkish Wikipedia site as well? Like - or not? Outside of Turkey it works, yes. The advice that I learnt from IT-nerds was: do not even try to cal such a URL. Something in the system will immediately log from which IP the call came. Then they show to you a fake page saying „The certificate of this site is invalid". - As everybody is in paranoia now the question is justified? - As for the CHP: no, I do not follow that. I am no sympathisant of them, just hear sometimes something from friends about them. Irrelevant for the future of Turkey. Part of the deep state as well, as it seems.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 12:23 utc | 90

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 4:36:17 AM | 87

You misunderstood what I was saying. If Turkish media publish this someone high up in Turkey - Erdogan, MIT? - wants it known.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 4 2018 12:25 utc | 91

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 7:23:26 AM | 90

"Does it work with a Turkish Wikipedia site as well?"

Yes of course.

The Turkish govt. censorship practice is not really like a total supression of info flow. It's more like Parental Guide advisory. I think there is less media and net control in Turkey than there is in the U.S.A. or Germany.

1) There is too much overseas propaganda flowing into Turkey (which is another form of supression perhaps?
2) 2 types of people find a way around govt. control on info flow: Friends and foes. Friends do not pose any threat to the country anyway. Foes are tracked down more easily which is good for the country.

So I guess you are free up to the PG level if you belong to the latter group.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 13:50 utc | 92

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 8:50:21 AM | 92

"The Turkish govt. censorship practice is not really like a total supression of info flow. It's more like Parental Guide advisory."
Fine, if only the Turkish people, especially the academic ones, would know it! ;-) They would not dare to try to connect to Wikipedia at this moment. I know this from sources that I trust. Propaganda has been there, is there and will be there, everywhere, in every country. Are the Turkish people sheeps that must be protected by unwelcomed paternal offers? What sense of freedom do you have? Yes, track down real foes but do not forget to show uncorrupted evidence at an independent court then. And in case the guy at the top says in the public one supposed foe is guilty to be a terrorist helper set him free, immediately, as no fair trial can be done then. Easy, eh?

With reason I adviced you to study private messages from Germany, 1933-1941, about. Makes sense. Because things are damned parallel to that period. The main difference is just that the (Erdogan-) AKP does the diry tricks below the radar of foreign media. I gave enough examples. People are not free. They are silent as they are silenced.

It is just the damned old nonsense story, from Atatürks first deep state until today: we want a political solution, of course. But we cannot find dialogue partners. With terrorists one cannot bargain. Who is terrorist? The guys we call terrorist. Who has the power can perform this madness, yes. But do not expect other people to continue to buy such nonsense.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 14:15 utc | 93

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 9:15:08 AM | 93

I know my sense of logic sometimes (or is it always?) sounds bizarre.

But I think we should save the women and children first. And the number of women and children in the US+EU is far greater than those in Turkey.

There is a civil war in the US, American people (Trump) vs. the globalist deep state.
There is a civil war in Germany too, Berlin vs. Bavaria.

Erdogan is the current leader of a small country of 80 million people and he is the Clint Eastwood, the good guy, in the movie I'm currently watching.

We don't make generalisation about 'foreign media'. There is the friends and foes comprising the foreign media. The foes in the foreign media outnumber the friends. For example here is an article (Who lost Turkey?) translated from MoA for Turkish readers:

Friend or foe?

Anyway, Erdogan in subplots may put the auidence off but he is, again, Clint Eastwood in the main plot. IMHO.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 16:01 utc | 94

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 11:01:41 AM | 94

Internationally it is always a symptom of some crisis if the majority of the local audiences insists on simple easy narratives that are suitable even for kids.
Nice that your distance yourself from such bs:
"There is a civil war in the US, American people (Trump) vs. the globalist deep state.
There is a civil war in Germany too, Berlin vs. Bavaria.
Erdogan is the current leader of a small country of 80 million people and he is the Clint Eastwood, the good guy, in the movie I'm currently watching.“
The last sentence means: people in your environment belive in this fairy tale, but not you. Right? In 1933 we had a similar easy narrative. With no happy end. Trouble is: people seem to prefer to go for hope, not for reason.
Just from curiosity: what role play this Yigit Bulut in this movie? Can you understand that the whole thing stinks in case such a guy is running free? From an outlandish point of view, of course. Ca. 30% of Turks may love that

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 17:07 utc | 95

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 12:07:47 PM | 95


The brother of the female fighter with a 'mutulated body' said she blew herself up according to the latest AFP report:

As for your question, I'm sceptical about anything because I'm alone, I'm fragile (there are usually far more parameters than I can handle before I make my mind up about somebody, Erdogan in this case) so I prefer to go step by step, algorithmically. So is he a good guy? In some cases yes, he definitely is. In some other cases, well, he is the devil I know. He is better than the main opposition leader. I apply the same logic to Bulut's case. Good guy? I'm not so happy with him. Bad guy? There are millions of guys worse than him in the US+EU, in democratic and civilized, modern parts of the world. Yigit is a guy working in a developing country which is currently being absolutely, indisputably, terrorized by the protégés of the US+EU.

So who wants to criticise Erdogan and Bulut? Karen Fogg? Michael Rubin? Henri Barkey in a CFR video interactive? NYT article? CNN? The Economist? Macron? YPG press center? Votel? Bill Clinton? Who is criticising Erdogan and Bulut? An ordinary American? An ordinary EU citizen? Who then? Step by step, while being as patient as an ox, I can listen to the complaints about them.

BTW, it was neither Erdogan nor Bulut who made up the above 'mutulated body' story.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 18:58 utc | 96

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 1:58:21 PM | 96
sTo make it short: in case no one can prove that the shown examples are wrong, fake etc., a guy like this Bulut makea any position for which he works stink. Punctum. If the AKP or Erdogan seriously want to mix within honourable people they should get rid of such guys quick. Somebody must do the necessary dirty works, ok, but he is surfaced with it he should return to the shadow.
According to what he himself most likely did he is a nun against personalities like Oliver North, I know, but life is not fair and there is tension whereever you look at.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 19:43 utc | 97

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 2:43:58 PM | 97

Oliver North, a patsy, case is different.

The U.S. gave two printers to Iran and North Korea to print real dollars.
Iran printed some and sold them to Escobar for half the price. Escobar gave Iran the real dollars with which Iran bought US weapons. Vatican bank was involved in the money laundering bit. I think Escobar was taken care of. An aide to the Potus comitted suicide. Vatican bank rep was silenced. A lot of things happened in between and after. In the end a printer, the Iranian one, went missing. It was discovered in a different country. And so on. I heard a story something in that line.

Anyway, I don't approve of Yigit. I believe 2 wrongs don't make a right. Erdogan does his best to keep the country away from prying eyes but his friends are useless. It's his fault too. Our fault too. Today I hear that he stopped policy making based on opinion polls conducted virtually daily. Apparently something is going wrong with that system. The municipalities for instance paid the polling companies on the side to make their constituencies look successful. Corruption. It was a good system since the beginning of the AKP rule. What I'm trying to say is that the executive body is responsive but is it enough, is this system OK? No. Yigit is waiting for his turn perhaps? Though he is still in charge of a huge fund. Turkey and the ruling party is under tremendous pressure. Maybe Turks should replace Erdogan with a new face and that way 'Dictator Erdogan' image the enemy depends on and with so much investment on it will drop from the table into a trash can. But are there any kingmakers to handle this operation? Erdogan is the best kingmaker himself. Time will show. A lot of things depend on the AfrinOp. ManbijOp. Northeast SyriaOp, all the way to Iraqi border.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 4 2018 20:36 utc | 98

@ ConfusedPundit | Feb 4, 2018 3:36:33 PM | 98

My guess: one should replace this principle of demagogic polarization by coming to reason. Until now it worked, with far less success than you wrote, in my opinion, but the price is too high for keeping just 30-35% of the lower (uneducated) part of the society entertained and pleased.
The readers here now get enough interesting views into Turkey and I am not confused,hopefully, but a bit tired.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 4 2018 20:51 utc | 99

Hausmeister | Feb 4, 2018 3:51:39 PM | 99

It was a great debate for me. Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Unlike yourself, I prefer to be confused under local circumstances, the other option is going totally crazy.

The president of the German bar assoc. Ulrich Schellenberg, in his own words, a few days ago:

"According to the Turkish mentality, those who help terrorists are terrorists"

LOL. I'm happy to be confused only.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 5 2018 10:08 utc | 100

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