Trump Points To Falsehoods In "Russian Hacking" Claims - Media Ignore What He Says
Each day we get more "Russian influence" and "Russian hacking" claptrap. Like this from the once honorable Wired which headlines:
Here's the first evidence Russia used Twitter to influence Brexit
Russian interference in Brexit through targeted social media propaganda can be revealed for the first time. A cache of posts from 2016, seen by WIRED, shows how a coordinated network of Russian-based Twitter accounts spread racial hatred in an attempt to disrupt politics in the UK and Europe.
Interesting, enthralling, complicate and sensational ...
... until you get down to paragraph 14(!):
Surprisingly, all the posts around Brexit in this small snapshot were posted after the June vote.
"Russian-based Twitter accounts" influenced the Brexit vote in the UK by tweeting affirmative AFTER the vote happened.
"Russian agents" influenced the U.S. election by buying irrelevant Facebook ads - 25% of which were never seen by anyone and 56% of which were posted AFTER the election.
During a flight of his recent Asia tour U.S. President Donald Trump held a press gaggle on board of the plane. Part of it were questions and answers about the alleged "Russian hacking" of the U.S. election.
There is no public transcript available yet but the Washington Post's Mark Berman provided a screenshot of some relevant parts:
Mark Berman @markberman - 6:20 AM - 11 Nov 2017Full comment from @realDonaldTrump again questioning the US intel community conclusion that Russia meddled last year
Note that the three (not four, not seventeen) U.S. intel agencies Berman talks of did not come to "conclusions" as he claimed. They delivered an "assessment" (pdf) - their word - an estimate or judgement based on observation of behavior and other vague data. Its Annex B points out:
Judgments are not intended to imply that we have proof that shows something to be a fact. Assessments are based on collected information, which is often incomplete or fragmentary, as well as logic, argumentation, and precedents.
In the gaggle transcript attached to Berman's tweet Trump talks about his short encounter with the Russian President Putin in Hanoi:
Q: When did you bring up the issue of election meddling? Did you ask him a question?A: Every time he sees me he says he didn't do that and I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it. But he says, I didn't do that. I think he is very insulted by it, ...
...
He says that very strongly and he really seems to be insulted by it he says he didn't do it.Q: Even if he didn't bring it up one-on-one, do you believe him?
A: I think that he is very, very strong on the fact that didn't do it. And then you look and you look what's going on with Podesta, and you look at what's going on with the server from the DNC and why didn't the FBI take it? Why did they leave it? Why did a third party look at the server and not the FBI? You look at all of this stuff, and you say, what's going on here? And you hear it's 17 agencies. Well its three. And one is Brennan. And one is whatever. I mean, give me a break. They're political hacks. So you look at it, and then you have Brennan, you have Clapper and you have Comey. Comey's proven now to be a liar and he's proven to be a leaker. So you look at that. And you have President Putin very strongly, vehemently say he has nothing to do with that. Now, you are not going to get into an argument, you are going to start talking about Syria and the Ukraine.
Trump gets it. He knows the weak points of the propaganda claims of "Russian hacking": Podesta and the fake Steele dossier, the DNC server, the lack of any FBI investigation of the alleged hack, the NYT's long false insistence on the '17 agencies' assessment, the "political hacks" who fitted their claims to the Obama/Clinton narrative.
But neither the Washington Post nor the NY Times or others mention the crucial points Trump spelled out in their write-ups of the gaggle. There is no word on the DNC email server in them, nor of Podesta. Instead they create a claim of "Putin says and Trump just believes him". They do not name the facts and questions Trump listed in support of his position. Taking up the valid questions Trump asked would of course require the news outlets to finally delve into them. We can't have that.
Trump is not the brightest bulb and he is not well informed. I dislike nearly all of his policies. But he understands that the "Russian hacking" narrative is false and is carried forward by lunatic political hacks and hostile media who want to push the U.S. back into a cold, or maybe even hot war with Russia, China, Iran and probably everyone else.
Posted by b on November 11, 2017 at 19:00 UTC | Permalink
the term "hacked" implies that someone came in on
the internet, right?
I guess it could be that the DNC really was hacked,
but maybe they faked the hack story, fed the story
to crowdstrike, then paid crowdstrike a lot of money
to fabricate a fairytale about Russian hacking...
this russsian fairytale would be the bedrock of Hillary's
campaign, and it gave her a reason to badmoth trump who
intended to get along with putin, which deeply offended
the neocon Bolsheviks who've been running things since 9/11
if the hacking reallyhappened, it's maybe more likely to
have been the US NSA that did the hacking... that might
explain why the DNC and Hillary were not alarmed by the
hacking --if it happened-- and did nothing about it, and
conitued to write incriminating emails...
...they assumed the hackers were on their side
OK, then, if the hacking was a fairytale, made up by
Debbie and Hillary, and reinforced by crowdstrike, then
what?
maybe it doesnt make any difference in the long run, if
the DNC was hacked or not
whatever happened, the emails got out, assange strongly
hints that seth rich was the leak, seth rich was murdered,
and his murder was intended to be a warning to people like
donna brazile, who, after seth was murdered, started drawing
her office blinds because she didn't want to be sniped...
presumably by the people who murdered seth rich
Posted by: wadosy | Nov 11 2017 19:31 utc | 3
the real question is : what is j.sessions doing ? and if nothing , why trump doesn't fire him ?
Posted by: broders | Nov 11 2017 19:33 utc | 4
Russia gate is Really Hillary Gate...
And that's just the beginning as we consider the DNC lid coming off via Donna Brazile and the Uranium scandal.
Mueller has been gatekeeper for the Deep State for OKC bombing,
911,...other False Flag...and now today's Intrigues.
Will Podesta and Hillary escape?...or get Prison?
John McCain with ISIS and photo opp,..
Evil in your face 24
If certain people are not in Prison....Mueller could wear the label
Satan's guardian. ..and it wouldn't be exaggeration
Posted by: Brad | Nov 11 2017 19:55 utc | 5
Back when Trump looked like he was in the running in the US presidential election, I wondered how one man, even if he was genuine, could without the backing of US inteligence, take down the deepstate/borg/whatever. Putin pulled Russia out of the nineties with key backing from patriotic intelligence and military leadership, but Trump even if genuine would be on his own.
Just ordered 'Art of the deal' to try and understand Trump a bit more.
Looks like he has just destroyed a big chunk of deep state financing so will be interesting to see how long he can stay alive.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 11 2017 20:00 utc | 6
well, Mueller declined to find 9/11 evidence
against bin laden... or maybe we should say,
"he declined to manufacture evidence"... for
some unkown reason...
.
whatever, if seth rich's murder was an attempt
to terrorize politicians and the media into
parroting the party line --like the anthrax
letters did after 9/11-- it worked
donna is still saying, "the Russians dun it"
.
Posted by: wadosy | Nov 11 2017 20:05 utc | 7
b, it is so funny that everytime you allude to Trump being in the right against the teeming hordes or globalist, anti-Russia elites, you always offer the caveat: "but...he's a bastard and I hate him."
Can we just face the facts here that there is a coordinated effort by these elite to get Trump dethroned? What reason for this? Simple...he's a threat.
Enemy of my enemy anyone?
P.s. I view him as an opportunist..a chameleon. At the very least, perhaps he realizes the absolute absurdity of trying to keep the house of cards aloft in the ME. So far, no wars, and a deescalation in Syria. Pundits are talking about 3+% growth in US for first time in decade. I dont't know...perhaps Donald can cut and run in time to salvage some of the US prosperity.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 11 2017 20:07 utc | 8
I'm almost inclined to think Trump is letting this Russian hack thing play out on purpose despite his Tweets to the contrary. Preventing the feds from 'investigating' it wouldn't make it go away, it would just cement the notion of guilt and a cover-up into the anti-Trump, anti-Russian segment of the public. More importantly, the similarly-inclined political/government leaders (pro-Hillary, DNC, politicized FBI and intel, neocons, deep state, whatever...) and MSM slowly expose themselves for what they are. They get too confident in the big lie actually working and go into a feeding frenzy. Trump trolls them on Twitter and they go insane.
When you want to catch sharks, you don't chase them around the ocean to hunt them. You chum the waters and wait for them to come to you. Trump isn't the one chumming the waters here - he's letting the sharks do that themselves.
I scratched my head like everyone else trying to figure out Trump's earlier incomprehensible hiring/firing volley his first few months. Maybe that was just a bit of theatre. Trump might not understand the 'little people' too much, but he does understand his opponent psychopaths (corporate, banking or government/intel) and how to use their basic flaws against them. 'Draining the swamp' sells well, but letting his opponents stick their necks out far enough before Trump's own Night of the Long Knives would (to me) be a far more effective strategy towards his ends. And probably much safer for him than Kennedy's approach.
Kind of worrying that one has to rely on outsider psychopaths to cull other psychopath's well-entrenched herds within the US government. Does that ever turn out well?
Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 11 2017 20:22 utc | 9
Was anything Trump did really illegal? It hasn't been demonstrated yet. The US does much the same in Russia.
Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 11 2017 20:30 utc | 10
Only the most strident partisans hold tightly to the Russian interference nonsense.
Those who simply want to deal in facts bother ourselves to self inform using multiple sources who have been trying to make sense of the dastardly twists and turns in this muh Russia whodunit scandal. The DNC emails, dossier, collusion the whole escapade, from the beginning, could be seen as being built on nothing more than quicksand.
Mike Whitney posted a great piece this week suggesting Brennan, Obama's political 'hack', is behind this mess -
"Brennan spearheaded the anti-Russia campaign from the get-go. As early as August 2016, Brennan was providing classified briefings to ranking members of Congress expressing his conviction that Moscow was helping Trump to win the election. The former Director offered no proof to back up his claims nor has he since then. It was also Brennan who gradually persuaded Clapper, Comey and Morrell to join his anti-Russia jihad, although all were reluctant participants at first. Were they won over by compelling secret evidence that has been been withheld from the public?" - http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48172.htm
Then you have Joe Lauria's outstanding piece which lived less than 24 hours at HuffPo before being disappeared - http://raymcgovern.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/CLEANOn-The-Origins-of-Russia-gate-_-HuffPost.pdf
And then you have the Intercept's piece on Binney's meeting with CIA's Pompeo with Ray McGovern providing a lot more detail and an interview with his favorite news outlet RT - http://raymcgovern.com/
Oh, and about Binney's meeting with Pompeo? Trump requested Pompeo meet with him. He did. But Pompeo, as of today, remains steadfast in supporting the ICA crap report Obama's political intel hacks put out.
These are but a few sources digging and reporting on these bogus charges against Putin. I'd like to believe the majority of the U.S. electorate isn't being fooled by the nonsense. I can't speak for those who choose to remain inside the brainwashing corporate media bubble, but for those of us who divorced ourselves from their propaganda long ago ain't buying nor ever did buy into the muh Russia crap.
we got to wonder why donna brazile made such a
fuss about seth rich
she's being way too cagey for comfort
but even if we leave seth rich out of it,
none of it make any sense
first, Hillary and podesta were in bed with
the Russians, so it's reasonable to assume
the Russians preferred Hillary over trump
if the Russians hacked the emails --despite
the fact that the emails were apparently
compiled too fast to have come in on the
internet-- why would the Russians then give
the emails to wikileaks?
the emails clearly damaged khillary's campaign,
and so the release of the emails damaged Russia's
chances of benefiting from a Clinton presidency
.
Posted by: wadosy | Nov 11 2017 20:36 utc | 12
According to journalist, Liz Crokin and others online, Trump is pulling the biggest sting operation in history.
https://www.lizcrokin.com/hillaryclinton/mueller-president-trump-pulling-biggest-sting-history/
Also from a Youtube video I saw earlier there are claims this is what is happening.
1. Obama regime was chronically corrupt including sell of Uranium to Russia for bribes. Elements of the US military and intelligence were disgusted by this and approached Trump BEFORE the elections as a figure who could help them.
2. Trump decided to work with them and during his election campaign he deliberately made constant exaggerated claims of his supposed friendship with Putin, this was bait for the Democrats to smear him as a Putin-lover, Putin puppet.
3. Once elected, the whole "Trump is a Putin puppet" was allowed to run so that a huge demand for some sort of investigation in to Trump and his Russia links could be built. Only this investigation would in fact be used to target the Democrats and Clinton including for their corruption over the Uranium sales with the Russians.
4. This was apparently (according to these claims) the game plan from the beginning and Mueller is apparently going to work to convict Hillary Clinton and other senior Democrats.
I don't know how true this is, but it does answer a lot of questions and anomalies and also ties in with B's thesis that we are essentially seeing a quasi-military government in D.C. under Trump.
Posted by: Muslim Dude | Nov 11 2017 20:42 utc | 13
@ PavewayIV who ended his comment with:
"
Kind of worrying that one has to rely on outsider psychopaths to cull other psychopath's well-entrenched herds within the US government. Does that ever turn out well?
"
Yep! And we add our textual white noise to the rearranging of the deck chairs on the top deck of the good ship Humanity as it careens over the falls/into the shoals/pick-your-metaphor
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 11 2017 20:49 utc | 14
psychohistorian@14 -
Captain to crew: "I will not have this ship go down looking like a garbage scow. Deck chairs will be arranged in a neat and orderly manner at all times!"
Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 11 2017 21:30 utc | 15
The orange Chump is using diversionary tactics. Will the mafia Front goy thief disclose his extensive exposure/links to Russian and foreign banks ? https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate
https://www.salon.com/2017/04/18/trumps-deep-links-to-organized-crime-federal-investigators-know-and-the-public-is-catching-on_partner/ The same media you're decrying here is also ignoring this week's paradise papers revelations about Wilbur Ross, Trump's commerce secretary and business links with Russian Israeli mobsters and oligarchs like Mogilevich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMhzkvWuXEM
There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what is not true. The other is to refuse to believe what is true. Can't fix stupid sociopathy. I pity deplorable goyims, They deserve their plight...
Posted by: Augustin L | Nov 11 2017 21:32 utc | 16
Please someone end this idiot circus!
Russia hacked THE ELECTION ...hacked THE ELECTION ???
For the love of gawd..the ELECTION, meaning the voting was hacked.....it was NOT. Nothing has focused on Russian 'hacking' of VOTES.
Russia 'if' they hacked, at best hacked some emails and info used to expose Hillary. And posted negative info on the net.
So, so what? How many leakers weren't doing that?
I have had it with the Dems, they have IQs somewhere below that of cabbages. But I guess there are a certain number of citizens that will believe anything if it is repeated enough by their herd leaders.
Posted by: renfro | Nov 11 2017 22:10 utc | 17
All this pathetic, lousy street theater resembling staging can only serve one important reason:
Distraction.
What is it that people need to be distracted from? That the US has turned openly into a military dictatorship? That the extermination proceedings are speeding up?
Hitler used gas chambers, as did the US after the war. While the first was a psychopathic dictator, the latter is a psychopathic society. It has spend trillions in research and design of lethal weapons and systems to exterminate any 'enemy'.
With all the technological progress, people do no longer need to be dragged to a gas chamber. The gas chamber will come to them. Sprayed into the atmosphere and making its way into earth's life systems.
Trump, Dump, Busch, Koch, Clinton, Reagan, Nixon - plutocratic hand puppets.
It is not the people who decide where and when the ship sinks. It will be sunken for them - with all the useless eaters on board.
Posted by: notheonly1 | Nov 11 2017 22:31 utc | 18
Trump is too stupid to realise that the very reason the election was rigged in his favour was - the derailment of ANY ZIO/US/Russia relations !!
Their top priority ( as always) has been to keep Russia and Germany apart !
Russia's 'resources' and German 'innovation' is a match made in heaven - would spell the end of the US economy !
Posted by: Jack Oliver | Nov 11 2017 23:03 utc | 19
Not only did the Propaganda System refuse to correctly report as b details, but nowhere has it mentioned the defeat of Daesh, as Pepe Escobar discloses:
"This is History in the making.
"And right on cue, VIRTUALLY NOTHING about this REAL ON THE GROUND VICTORY OF A REAL WAR ON TERROR is being covered by Western corporate media.
"No wonder. Because this was the work of Damascus, Russia, Hezbollah, Iran advisers, Baghdad and the PMUs – actually the “4+1” - and not the US-led “coalition” that includes Wahhabi mongrels House of Saud and UAE - that totally smashes to bits the monochord Washington narrative.
"So History in the making must be silenced." [Emphasis in original.] http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48186.htm
Meanwhile, USG declares RT and Sputnik to be foreign agents and must register as such--and Trump had nothing to do with that?!?
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2017 23:27 utc | 20
The war on Syria and the Russian "hacking" debacle has corrupted the entire western media. Not that it was ever squeaky clean - far from it - but it was at least somewhat independent from the dominant establishment. There were pauses between the outrageous lies and blatant fact twisting and it did not overtly shill for neoliberal political parties and work overtime pushing massive amounts of propaganda on the public 24/7/365 and relentlessly demonize, in the most crude fashion imaginable, the leaders of some of the the world's most powerful countries and any sovereign nation that values its independence and freedom from Western exploitation.
The media is now now in permanent psy op mode, colonizing the public's mind and jamming people's ability to reason, think critically and even tell fact from fiction. It is only a matter of time before overt repression becomes widespread (to protect our freedoms of course) and the last remnants of democracy give way to an Orwellian/Huxleyite dystopia.
Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Nov 11 2017 23:30 utc | 21
CNN covers the Binney/Pompeo meeting, and describes Binney in the headline as a "conspiracy theorist".
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/mike-pompeo-william-binney-meeting/index.html
Posted by: jayc | Nov 11 2017 23:32 utc | 22
karlof1 20
If by chance Trump or anyone is genuine about taking down the deep state, they cannot do it by running around in a pathetic attempt trying to fix small issues. They would have to leave the machine to carry on as normal and go for its foundations. I thought about this months ago, and now looking at the latest events, this could be what is happening.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 11 2017 23:37 utc | 23
Meanwhile a revolution threatening the federation of Australia is taking place in Canberra utilizing a formless and compliant press corps and a fake issue of dual citizenship.
Chaos is a disease agent which has jumped out of the Middle Eastern laboratory into all western nations.
Posted by: gut bugs galore | Nov 11 2017 23:52 utc | 24
Educational Youtube videos on how the world works at "Rules for rulers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig_qpNfXHIU
Posted by: Krollchem | Nov 12 2017 0:13 utc | 25
"Trump is not the brightest bulb and he is not well informed. I dislike nearly all of his policies."
"b" - I listened to Trump carefully during his campaign speeches. He'd deliver a long "stream of consciousness" sentence that seemed to go all over the place. But when he'd finished the sentence you realised he'd in fact covered all the points he needed to make. And had done so while at the same time picking up and factoring in the audience response. I think he may be very bright indeed and quick on his feet.
Not well informed? I can't argue with that, not after Khan Shaykhun, but the same blanket of misinformation that covers almost all of us in Europe or the States will presumably cover New York property developers. In the echo chamber that is Washington DC I doubt there's much chance of remedying that. I speak to responsible well-educated people regularly whose knowledge of what is happening abroad you would condemn as pitifully inadequate. Rightfully so. Those of you who have a more accurate idea of the facts are few, and those of us who hear you are also in a tiny minority. That's a fact of life and we can no more condemn Trump for being ill-informed than we can the most of your and my neighbours.
I pin my hopes on the fact that he does have a good intuition and is, as I say, quick on his feet. With such a person reality has a better chance of getting through than it would with the usual tunnel vision politician.
His policies? I think we have to accept one unpalatable fact. An American politician who doesn't ostentatiously support Israel doesn't get to be an American politician, if that's not a circular way of saying it. Since that to a lesser extent is the case in England as well - you saw the trouble Corbyn got into recently - one either has to isolate oneself from political discussion or just accept that most politicians of any importance here or in the States will be defective in that respect. That sounds heartless, given what the Palestinians are going through, and given what Israel's neighbours are going through; but ceasing to strive for a little because we cannot have more is even less acceptable.
His other policies? You do not write on the economy on your site. The European economies, that of the UK in particular, and the American economy, are in a bad way. Urgently so. I can therefore only put forward as a view that the solutions proposed by Trump in 2016 offered the only chance, if a slim one, of turning that round.
One final point. You've seen the re-election in Germany of Mrs Merkel - no idea how since none of the people I meet in Germany would have dreamed of voting for her, but she's still there. You've seen a dead-beat government elected in the UK as well. And in France you've seen the election of Macron! In America that pattern was broken. I think it might have been a fluke - I have relatives in the States who are dyed in the wool Democrats but who just couldn't stomach the candidate they put up, and it seems there were many like them. But fluke or not they now have a President who, judging by the way they attack him, is an opponent of the type of policies that have led us to our present pass. He seems to have pretty well the entire American establishment and the media against him so he may not get that far. But surely a slim chance of getting out of the hopeless mess that is our politics in the West at present is better that the certainly of sinking further into it?
Posted by: EnglishOutsider | Nov 12 2017 0:15 utc | 26
The sense from America's heartland is that nobody gives a s**t. Like the Syrian War it does not directly effect anyone, and most people have little regard for the machinations of the Game of Thrones in the Beltway. People are too concerned about keeping their jobs, paying their bills, and keeping their health insurance. My friends chide me for worrying about things of which I have no control. My sense is that everyone is aware of bigger issues, such as the climate catastrophe, and the ongoing in progress extinction, and are very depressed about it, but have taken a very existential position.
Posted by: Michael | Nov 12 2017 1:01 utc | 27
@18 nottheonly1
I would say that yours and b's "military dictatorship" idea does have merit, but who would Trump turn to in a room full of snakey, AIPAC-groveling, neocon-politicians on the left AND right? For better or worse, Trump likes the military and the military likes Trump.
Your final comment about the useless eaters reminded me of John Berger's essay "The Eaters and the Eaten." I couldn't find a link to the essay but I will link to an article which references it in relation to the merit the peasant brings in the struggle against the bourgeois and their forced narrative on the rest of us (Russia-bad, identity-politics, globalism, etc.).
I continue to believe that a populist uprising against the globalists is currently unfolding and those that harbor no pie-in-the-sky visions of world peace through perpetual war may be winning. I pray that this is the case.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 12 2017 1:06 utc | 28
@psychohistorian
Humanity is not going down. When Roman Empire is down, Hunes are up; && repeat. --Unless life on Earth goes down; --life on the Moon is up, then.
@PavewayIV
How can he catch a shark? It's not like there is a wise man on a shore with a net, rather he is a quite small fish democratically elected by even smaller fish to be the sharks' commander. Accordingly, he may try to do some commanding. (...and yes, a foreign madman would not care about any fish-shark distinction...)
Posted by: Don Karlos | Nov 12 2017 1:17 utc | 29
“Trump is not the brightest bulb and he is not well informed. I dislike nearly all of his policies.”
Trump was bright enough to build up a billion dollar business empire, to win the Republican nomination against the wishes of most the the Republican establishment, and to win the election over the Clinton/Establishment machine.
He was bright enough to note immediately after the 9/11 false flag the absurdity of aspects of what became the official narrative; and for example to question the safety of the deluge of vaccines that kids especially are being subjected to, while simultaneously there is an unprecedented 'epidemic' of autism and asthma in children.
And his anti-NWO strong emphasis on national sovereignty, and upon taking office his immediate repudiation of the nation-state disempowering and democracy-defeating TPP, are imo evidence of combining bright and gutsy.
And he has been bright and gutsy enough to directly take on mass media bs and to call out, as no other promenent person has, the 'fake news', the mass media propaganda system; and playfully, and rather brightly, offers his direct line to the public via twitter.
And along with Putin, Trump has earned more mass media and establishment invective, attacks, and condemnation than just about anyone in my living memory. So he must be doing something right.
When someone is referred to as “not the brightest bulb”, this is a cliche way of denoting stupidity in someone else, but it is a often a somewhat perilous joust, suggesting a suspect self-inflation. As far as not being well informed, that of course depends on what specific matters are being referred to. It has been said that a bunch of highly intelligent people with access to all sorts of information bombed Indochina mercilessly for years; for. as the highly intelligent and overflowing with information Dr. Kissinger noted, basically nothing.
Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Nov 12 2017 1:37 utc | 30
Economy - growth rate
Has nothing to do with Trump - but is good and was good during Obama
Growth rate does not say who profits - some people lose all the time.
It is clear that Hillary Clinton has lost any power and influence she once had, and now people tell all kind of stories.
The Russia hoax will not survive - this here is The Wall Street Journal on the Steele Dossier.
This is utterly untrue. In British court documents Mr. Steele has acknowledged he briefed U.S. reporters about the dossier in September 2016. Those briefed included journalists from the New York Times , the Washington Post, Yahoo News and others. Mr. Steele, by his own admission (in an interview with Mother Jones), also gave his dossier in July 2016 to the FBI...
To that point, it is fair to ask if the entire Trump-Russia narrative—which has played a central role in our political discourse for a year, and is now resulting in a special counsel issuing unrelated indictments—is based on nothing more than a political smear document. Is there any reason to believe the FBI was probing a Trump-Russia angle before the dossier? Is there any collusion allegation that doesn’t come in some form from the dossier?
The idea that the federal government and a special counsel were mobilized—that American citizens were monitored and continue to be investigated—based on a campaign-funded hit document is extraordinary. Especially given that to this day no one has publicly produced a single piece of evidence to support any of the dossier’s substantive allegations about Trump team members.
Every world leader now knows they can get cooperation by giving Trump "deals".
Americans seem to do what they always do to defend themselves - vote the opposition party in to limit power.
Posted by: somebody | Nov 12 2017 1:49 utc | 31
@ h, #11 --
"I'd like to believe the majority of the U.S. electorate isn't being fooled by the nonsense"
H.L. Mencken - nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people
Posted by: chet380 | Nov 12 2017 1:58 utc | 32
@chet380
Mencken was wrong and so are you. There is nothing wrong with the intelligence of the American people. Half of them are above average, as a matter of fact. Which half are you in?
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 2:22 utc | 33
@13 muslim dude.. thanks for your interesting comment/conjecture.. could be...
@24 gut bugs galore.. it does appear that way... i think it still remains in the m/e but has done what you say too..
intelligence is relative... someone can be intelligent in one area but not in another.. trump has some intelligence obviously.. maybe he is brighter then i think, but socially pretty inept...most politicians that really succeed come across as sociopathic to me..
Posted by: james | Nov 12 2017 2:26 utc | 34
"enemy of my enemy", never imo. That's how we get decades of blowback, terrorist creation, terrorist and death squad and dictator alliances. Even after the Cold War ended that theme still held. Most often that "enemy" isn't a moral one either, it's an enemy of US capitalism, free markets, the military and arms industries, and hegemony.
This isn't to dismiss anything Trump says of course. IMO he's far more on point about this whole Russiagate nonsense than the MSM, and most establishment politicians, and citizens of all stripes are. Bin Laden was also pretty accurate about real reasons the US is viewed as despicable (not "our freedoms"); and he also fulfilled most if not all of his goals from 9/11 (I get there are some truthers around but let's just say it was indeed al qaeda). US military bases out of Saudi; US committed to empire-draining wars; US creating more terrorists than it kills...
...my ideal pet theory is that Trump is like, much more intelligent than anyone suspects. The facade of stupidity and ignorance and blather is just that--he's playing everyone as puppets, for an as-yet unknown agenda. Rather doubt this is true but would be nice if it were (and the agenda was something peaceful positive for all people).
Posted by: Soft Asylum | Nov 12 2017 2:32 utc | 35
Don Bacon | Nov 11, 2017 9:22:05 PM | 33
When people are blinded by ideology, a great deal of inteligence is lost. People are the same all over, but in the US, the ideology of exceptionalism - and capitalism, has been pumped into them for many generations.
Have a run around the social media and check how many people believe Russia meddled in US "democracy" because of whats been pumped into them over the last year. One side believes Russia interfered on Trumps behalf and the other side believes Russia interfered on Clintons behalf, but they also know Russia interfered with their precious virgin democracy.
Mencken is right.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 12 2017 2:42 utc | 36
Trump domestic policy is Republican boiler plate. Trickle Down; Reaganomics. If you're among the commons, your expenses will increase and your wealth will decrease.
Your public school budgets will be see further cuts while public money is diverted to Religious and Private (Charter) schools.
Other than that, everything is just dandy.
Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 12 2017 2:48 utc | 37
The most important thing to understand about the 2016 election is that the corporate media and the military-industrial complex were aiming for a Jeb Bush vs. Hillary Clinton match, and yet, due to popular anger at the plutocrats who own and rule this country, it almost went to a Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump match.
Conclusion: The plutocrats are losing control in the United States.
When the plutocrats who rose to wealth and power by running Boris Yeltsin in Russia in the 1990s were called to heel by Putin in the early 2000's, the Wall Street-Washington complex had a panic attack. Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky, Gusinsky - all forced to flee Russia or be imprisoned. This would be like the U.S. government locking up Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos - that's what Putin did in 2003. That's when the U.S.-British military-industrial complex and the plutocrats began trying to restart the Cold War, with expanding NATO and so on. In a rational world, NATO would have been dissolved at the same time the Warsaw Pact was.
Donald Trump is an accident, a not-supposed-to-happen scenario. No background with the military-industrial complex (though he's trying to be as good an arms dealer as Barak Obama was), no ties to the think tank system - it's utter chaos. Hillary Clinton is far more reckless and dangerous in terms of launching WW3 then Donald Trump could ever hope to be. This is more about incompetence and internal chaos than anything else, however.
And the Democratic Party on Putin? This is just a case of Clinton Democrats trying to retain party control by finding something other than their own corruption and incompetence to blame for their record of electoral losses since 2010, which have more to do with Obama rolling over for Wall Street and betraying most people who voted for him, in the end. Not that Trump will be too forthcoming about this: "See, Sanders would have beaten me in the general election, so of course Clinton had to rig the primary with the cooperation of the corrupt corporate media!". Then Trump puts in just as many Goldman Sachs executives as Hillary Clinton would have.
In the end, the whole American Empire is too corrupt to survive. Take a look at Rex Tillerson and Exxon Mobile, a Trump ally. Well, Exxon's top three shareholders include State Street Corporation - and it was a State Street executive who introduced Hillary Clinton when she announced her bid for the presidency! State Street controls only 5% of Exxon Mobil shares, but that's 200,000,000 shares at $85 or so, some $190 billion dollars - that's the money that's backing Hillary Clinton, but which is also in bed with Donald Trump. Wall Street, Big Oil and American Empire!
This is not even about Russia and the US, in any case, as China's economic program is far more likely to be the world leader while the old Cold War enemies play at stupid pet tricks. Jackasses.
Posted by: nonsense factory | Nov 12 2017 2:51 utc | 38
Somebody:
Americans seem to do what they always do to defend themselves - vote the opposition party in to limit power.Wrong.
1) Clinton actually won a majority of the votes.2) Clinton lost because she was such a flawed candidate who ran a flawed campaign.
3) Despite being so flawed she was allowed to win the nomination over Bernie because Obama-Clinton control of the party was absolute.
<> <> <> <> <> <> <>
All of the above are valid "facts" about the 2016 race. But there are several disturbing realities that cause the entire 2016 race to be suspect.
1) The US election system is designed to prevent populists from winning. Populists who allowed to be elected (like Obama) are faux populists that actually serve the establishment.2) Bernie was a sheepdog who had (apparently) pledged to a) not attack Hillary on character issues, and b) support the party nominee.
3) Trump had supported Clinton against Obama and took up her "birther" nonsense to weaken him. During the election he actually said that it originated with Clinton and that he (now) accepted that Obama was qualified to be President.
4) Hillary had made it clear that she preferred that Trump be the Republican nominee (her supposed reasoning: as a billionaire and political neophyte, he would be easy to beat).
5) Chelsea Clinton (the Clinton's ONLY child) and Ivanka Trump (Trump's only daughter whom he dotes over) are close friends.
6) Despite the apparently bitter contest, within days of winning the Presidency, Trump announced that he wouldn't pursue prosecution of Hillary saying that the Clinton's were "good people".
7) After assuming office, Trump has acted in ways that betrayed promises to his 'base' and/or created tension that allowed his political enemies to constrain his choices. Examples:
- keeping Comey on and then hinting that he had taped a conversation with Comey;- a pre-mature missile attack on Syria;
- not explaining why he didn't denounce the alt-Right march in Charlottesville (they had a legal permit to march) which led to charges that he supported white supremacists.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 12 2017 3:27 utc | 39
@Peter AU 1
Misbelieving in situations because we are fed the wrong facts is one thing, insulting the intelligence of a whole nation is not acceptable, not with me. That applies to any nation. Talk to me about American "sheeple" and I will be present for duty.
Don't blame any people for the situation they find themselves in. Chinese, Korean Mexican, German -- blame the government and its media allies, not the people. I've lived in many countries and have found the people in all of them to be wonderful, just as the American people are. To call them all stupid are fightin' words to me, and that's what chet380 did, so your lecture is out of place. Take it and your Mencken somewhere else.
Edward Abbey: "The tragedy of modern war is not so much that the young men die but that they die fighting each other--instead of their real enemies back home in the capitals."
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 3:38 utc | 40
nottheonly1 @ 18 :"All this pathetic, lousy street theater resembling staging can only serve one important reason:
Distraction.
Yep, enough already. A quick perusal of the GOP and Trump's plan's reveal the real purpose of this latest incarnation of " government". To further enrich the 1% at the expense of the working classes. The best liar won the last election, and they did so with the willing participation of the bought and paid for Dems like HRC, not because of anything the Russians did or did not do.
Posted by: ben | Nov 12 2017 3:43 utc | 41
Follow the bouncing ball --
HANOI — Seeking to clarify comments he made hours before, President Trump said Sunday he believes Vladimir Putin sincerely believes Russia did not meddle in last year's U.S. presidential election — but Trump himself said he sides with conclusions to the contrary by U.S. intelligence agencies.
Trump believes...
We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.
...Looks like a slam-dunk to me. /s
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 4:53 utc | 42
Don Bacon 40 "I've lived in many countries and have found the people in all of them to be wonderful, just as the American people are."
I would totaly agree with most of this. Away from anything political, many Americans are just ordinary down to earth people. Even in geo-politics, a percentage, perhaps 10% fully understand the dirty shit that is going on, and that in the name of the state of USA, what their state is doing. But Americans as a general population goes, are different from the other five eyes. Much bragado and exceptionalism and theater. This is general population, as compared to the other five eyes. Not individuals.
The general attitude/culture whatever it can be called seems to go back a long way Don.
My father in law who as an 18/19 year old was part of defence of US airstrips as the US island hopped to Japan had no enminty for the Japanes but dissliked Americans from that time.
Same for two relatives who were in Vietnam, one a conscript, the other a carrer military officer. I never really understood that, and it was only in the months after MH17 I began to feel the same.
But the question is this. Why do they not feel this way towards other five eye forces they have fought alongside?
I watch a lot of youtube videos, when I can't do much else, on things that interest me. When dealing with another culture, some of the US videos are very good, but in others, the exceptionalism or perhaps condescension towards the 'lower' culture just oozes out and I find these unwatchable even though I am interested in what they are filming.
There is a huge amount of inovation come from the US, and this I like reading about or watching, but there is also something else about the US, this is just speaking of population in general rather than idividuals, is a general feeling of arrogance, or exceptionalism, that has come perhaps from the huge inovations the US has made, and also generations of indoctrination.
This would be unnoticable to Americans who have grown up and lived their lives thinking this is the norm.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 12 2017 6:24 utc | 43
@ Don Bacon
As far as swallowing propaganda goes, all people in all countries are the same.
In Australia, not one fucking polition made waves that reached the media about MH17. Although very few people I know, make that no one trusts MSM or their politicians, because it was all around them, thought MH17 had been shot down by the 'rebel' side and Russia may or may not have had involvement. People are the same all over, they fall for propaganda if the lie is repeated constantly. In the US, this has produced a general culture of arrogance and exceptionalism that has killed many millions around the world and therein lies the difference. I have thought for the last few years now, that the only way to break this culture, is for the US to go through what Russia went through in the nineties.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 12 2017 6:45 utc | 44
@43
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. We can pretend that every culture is smart and just a-okay or we can seriously look at some glaring problems that exist in the USA collectively. Its not unique to them either, a lot of the west holds quite similar attitudes, but in America its just taken to it's extreme.
One only has to look towards the end of the Roman, Athenian or Ottoman states to get a sense of this too. Culture at the end of most empires is usually often very "flawed" (for lack of a better word) and filled with its own hubris. You can blame it on the state, or media, or anything really, but it doesn't change much besides the explanation of why.
No one is calling Americans "sheeple" here
Posted by: George Smiley | Nov 12 2017 6:59 utc | 45
EnglishOutsider @26
"..He seems to have pretty well the entire American establishment and the media against him.."
You are dead right on this. The fact that despite this he won the election says that many Americans are no longer buying the bullshit peddled by the media and political & governmental establishment. Despite the 24x7 media harping on the Russians throwing the election to Trump and all the investigations including Mueller the epitome of establishment, Trump shows by the press gaggle transcript that b quoted, he knows what's going on. He's no dummy as many contend he is. He may not be as sophisticated and articulate as say Obama was but he was able to get his message across to those that mattered the average voter, the Deplorables. Yeah, in coastal, liberal circles the Deplorables are considered dumb. But... who is really dumb? The Deplorables or the Coasties?
As you point out in the west, any politician has to play the zionist song or else be labeled anti-semitic. Who knows what Trump will accomplish. But at least he hasn't started another war and he did not push for a no-fly-zone in Syria as Hillary and his Republican opponents during the primaries wanted. Even in the case of North Korea, while has sent out belligerent tweets, he is saying that he would like to meet Kim Jong Un.
Considering his limited room to maneuver due to the intense attacks of the establishment & media, it is rather amazing what he has accomplished. Just calling out Brennan, Clapper & Comey as political hacks is a huge step.
Posted by: ab initio | Nov 12 2017 7:09 utc | 46
Intelligence is relative to its context.
I think in terms of "functional intelligence". It's like asking, how smart are you now, kid, in these circumstances you find yourself in?
I observe, for example, that many of the super elite and the powerful - the very smart - actually become functional idiots when faced with forces they never factored into their mindset, or skill set. Such as when Israel meets Hezbollah. Such as when the US meets Russia.
Such as when the deep state meets Trump. Such as when Trump meets the deep state.
Such as when the very intelligent people of the US meet a wall of propaganda posing as truth that they have no reason to doubt, and from this make wrong conclusions - in a tragic kind of innocence - that they will defend to the death from moral principle, never knowing they've been lied to, never dreaming they should suspect the truth of the cultural received word.
~~
I was going to give this topic a miss but I'm glad I read this thread. I'm delighted to hear from English Outsider @26. I miss fully formed sentences. I hope to hear from you here again.
I'm delighted to read Don Bacon's observations on intelligence.
Peter AU, we agree on most things - step back a little and let Don Bacon set the terms for this discussion. It's not the fault of the people that lies work. Even as it shows the evil of the liars, it also shows the goodness of ordinary people.
~~
Nowhere in the user manual of being human does it say that we should distrust words that say they are true. We live in a new and glorious age when we ordinary people are now writing this subtlety into the manual. After us, no one will believe words at face value. Before us, everyone did. We are the bridge across which walks human culture. Celebrate.
It was the liars who forged this breakthrough. Evil always produces the opposite result from what it intended. That's what evil does. The universe has a sense of irony too. The evil ones become functionally unintelligent in the twists and turns and challenges that the universe throws up. And this reveals their evil. We become functionally savvy - but not of right, simply from the circumstances. By contrast.
~~
And then there's Trump. What I think, in this context of relative functional intelligence, is that if, in the maneuvering of the armies in the hills, suddenly a chink appeared in the armor of the enemy, and the jugular was exposed, Trump could attack, and strike, and win. Because his functional intelligence proved greatest at the time and in the place.
It's just luck, but Bernie wouldn't do it, and nor would any of the regular characters. Trump might. That's why people voted for him, for the wild card factor - the desperate gamble of the poor and oppressed. It's why poor working people play the lottery with their only disposable income. The gamble at wild odds is that Trump is the Mule, the genetic freak in the Foundation trilogy of Asimov's, the one person who remains outside of all calculation.
He could strike, and win. And maybe not even know how big a thing he'd done. But his wife might seem perhaps especially radiant that evening, as the blood dried, and the empire struggled to gather itself into the new dawning.
Posted by: Grieved | Nov 12 2017 7:17 utc | 47
First of all, it doesn't really matter if Trump was just a liar during the campaign - no more American regime change - we can make deals with Russia - make the american economy strong in a real way. Or a real populist slowly navigating (but with much bloviating) his way in an alien hostile environment. Every body remembers what happened to JFK He fired the head of the CIA and appeared to be a real reformer. If all the deep state wanted was to get him out and LBJ in, they could have easily poisoned him or ruined his health. No, they publicly assassinated him in a brutal way as a message to anybody that challenged their programs. I don't have a clue how Trump feels about his wife (ex-wives) but he does seem to genuinely have strong feelings for Ivanka. How easy is it to make threats? with the known ability to follow through. So I believe what we are witnessing is two sections of the deep state fighting. It is obvious that one section thought Hillary was a slam dunk and are upset about her loss. We just have another set of billionaires (with some section of the military) who pulled off a coup and got Trump elected. The military-industrial-national security complex continues as before. The Neo-con foreign agendas continue as before. War with North Korea or Iran or Venezuela> leading to possible war with Russia or China is just as likely as if Hillary got elected. The strategy of tension (Las Vegas, San Bernadino, night club in Florida, Boston Marathon Bombing - etc etc continues to cause real fear for the population. Yes, it's only too true, we live in the best of all possible worlds like the optimists believe.
Posted by: gepay | Nov 12 2017 7:34 utc | 48
Trump does himself no favours by repeating conversations he had with President Putin.
1. Trump knows he didn’t collide
2. He knows he didn’t tell any of his staff to collude
So unless they have proof to the contrary the “ 17 agencies are lying
President Putin should not even defend himself on this false claims. It’s like asking when did you last beat your wife.
I can’t understand why the Russians get involved
Surely they understand what is behind it?
Posted by: James lake | Nov 12 2017 7:55 utc | 49
@ Gieved with the hat tip to the source of my moniker
I guess I see those that hold out the delusion of Trump doing something for those on other than the elite top deck of the good ship Humanity similar to those that held out the same delusions about Obama ( me included until he bailed out the banks)
I see Trump as an wanna be plutocrat that is playing the heavy for a faction of the elite against another elite faction........if I were to guess I would label them as the globalists against the Americans and the Americans are about to be thrown under the bus. I say this because one of the take aways from the Trump meeting in China was an agreement to let private finance own 51% ownership in Chinese financial institutions......this will cause a giant sucking sound as the globalists that own private finance move their money to China and let the US debt be defaulted on and held by losers after the elite's derivative positions.
While I appreciate some references to other empires, the end of this one has a greater potential for human extinction than the past ones.....and we have two of the "leading grownups" calling each other childish names currently......
I believe that humanity can organize itself with a combination of tenets of capitalism/socialism/communism/??? better than how we are organized now. I don't believe that private finance/usury is core to all capitalistic concepts and think that turning this one social utility (money) into a totally public one that eliminates usury is key to our species having better incentives for our interactions......no more focus on fealty to God of Mammon.
How does humanity hold the conversations it needs to evoke change other than in forums like this.....and how does this scale?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 12 2017 8:00 utc | 50
Don Karlos@29 - "How can he catch a shark? It's not like there is a wise man on a shore with a net, rather he is a quite small fish democratically elected by even smaller fish to be the sharks' commander. Accordingly, he may try to do some commanding.
My tin-foil hat reckoning says one of two possibilities:
1) The DNC, Obama, Hillary, CIA, FBI, MSM and some .mil in the US have gone way, way too far, even for slimy US politics. Other intel and .mil wanted to stop it but had no chance with Hillary in the White House. They recruited Trump to run and made sure he won the election. Trump knows what they need to do and gives them the authority to do it, while enjoying his showman president job and Twitter. The .mil surrounding Trump isn't controlling him - they don't need to. He knows the deal and is letting them do their jobs. Many Saudi Arabia princes were part of all this and had to be taken down without the CIA interfering. Bank records were needed. Salman either agreed to do this or was threatened into doing it or both. The money trails will lead to senior US government and political leaders who need to be culled. The US Night of the Long Knives is coming very soon, and it will be bigly.
2) Trump's an idiot and in it for the money and fame. .mil is steering him to whatever ends they desire.
Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 12 2017 8:12 utc | 51
Donald Trump destroyed the Bush and Clinton mobs. That in itself is a huge political and social accomplishment. Yet the result is probably no more than 'see the new gang, the same as the old one.' I'm relieved to see that the US is finally beginning to stir from its Russia-did-it mass-psychosis. See the two articles linked to by somebody @ 31 and h @ 11 (Strassel and Laurie).
Posted by: Quentin | Nov 12 2017 8:28 utc | 52
Peter AU 1 | Nov 11, 2017 9:42:41 PM | 36
+1
I'm with you on that one.
Posted by: V. Arnold | Nov 12 2017 8:33 utc | 53
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, Mary mother of Jesus Christ, our Savior was immaculately conceived, and so was the State of Israel, and Russian hackers and trolls deprived us of free election.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 12 2017 8:53 utc | 54
"Yeah, in coastal, liberal circles the Deplorables are considered dumb. But... who is really dumb? The Deplorables or the Coasties?"
It is like Olympic Games: before we put two top runners on the same track and let them race, it is hard to tell who will win, but both of them are damn good runners. I still believe that liberal (i.e. not progressive) Democrats have equally weird foreign policy as Republicans, but on domestic matters the choice is between inept and outright malevolent.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 12 2017 9:04 utc | 55
James lake | Nov 12, 2017 2:55:57 AM | 49 "President Putin should not even defend himself on this false claims. It’s like asking when did you last beat your wife."
I can never understand why people continue to belive MSM. The internet is here. Transcripts in English, videos with translated captions are a dime a dozen.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 12 2017 9:39 utc | 56
"Trump believes..."
What? ... From Rueters.... “As to whether I believe it or not, I’m with our agencies, especially as currently constituted,” Trump said at a news conference with Vietnamese President Tran Dai Quang...
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 12 2017 11:18 utc | 57
There is no question that the western msm is paid agents for Nato and western intelligence propaganda campaigns.
‘Haters & fools’: Trump lashes out at those rejecting good relations with Russia
http://www.cetusnews.com/news/%E2%80%98Haters---fools%E2%80%99--Trump-lashes-out-at-those-rejecting-good-relations-with-Russia.HyWgSaLS1f.html
Posted by: Anonynmous | Nov 12 2017 11:46 utc | 58
quentin
I think you are badly wrong to believe that the russian hysteria is about to vanish, I dont think we have seen the half of it yet, its simply a new hoax delivered every day on this subject, plus we have a neocon US military, nato and various antirussian journalists that will keep this alive to what? War?
Posted by: Anonynmous | Nov 12 2017 13:30 utc | 59
Simple: If the US were to lose Russia as an enemy then it would also lose Europe as a dependent ally, and there would be nothing left, no need (except forever provoking North Korea) for a half million person army with tanks and self-propelled howitzers, nothing but PR voyages of aircraft carriers and destroyers, which isn't much. The US must have a huge expensive army, as in the Cold War and its current sequel. There is no alternative for the PTB. The US now has a reported "tank gap" BTW, with US tanks outnumbered by dastardly Russian tanks.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 15:00 utc | 60
I agree with PavewayIV @51
Just as the media is the voice of a certain faction of the establishment, Trump is now the voice of another faction.
I wrote my comment @39 to say essentially the same thing.
Our habit of referring to the President as the all-powerful, head of the government derails clear thinking. Trump, like Obama, should be thought of a part of an executive team.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 12 2017 15:10 utc | 61
from the web -- controlling the narrative
"Control over the narrative has more and more replaced truth seeking. It is the old Goebbels dictum: If you repeat the same lie over and over enough, it becomes the truth." . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 15:29 utc | 62
Anonynmous | Nov 12, 2017 6:46:47 AM | 58
And then, he quickly back-pedals – siding with US intel agencies:
Trump Reverses, Sides With Intel Agencies Over Russia Election Meddling;
One day after Trump caused the latest round of broad media outrage when he reportedly sided with Putin over Russia's alleged "election interference", while slamming US intel agencies, and repeating his allegation that the investigation is a ‘hoax’, and the FBI a “bunch of hacks,” Trump reversed himself and "cleared up confusion" over whether he accepts Russian President Vladimir Putin’s denials of meddling in the U.S. election last year.
Speaking at a news conference in Vietnam with President Tran Dai Quang on Sunday morning local time, Trump distanced himself from remarks he made one day earlier in which he suggested he believed Putin when he said there had been no Russian meddling in the election that took him to the White House. The comments drew a backlash of criticism at home because US intelligence agencies have long since "concluded" there was Russian meddling.
[.]"What I said is, I believe [Putin] believes that," Trump said at the press conference in Hanoi, Vietnam. "I believe that he feels that he and Russia did not meddle in the election. As to whether I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies, especially as currently constituted, with their leadership."[.]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Reminded of Schumer’s observation, Trump stays with Intel.
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 12 2017 16:00 utc | 63
Thank you Moon of Alabama and all its well informed visiting patrons for all you do to bring truth and light to this world, and for helping our veterans through exposing the dark truths about our nations illegal and immoral wars for profit and hegemony. New information is here related to John McCain's actions aiding terrorist groups in Syria.
“All McCain’s Men” in the FSA Terrorist Factions in Syria – A Lesson in How Not To Conduct Covert Foreign Operations And Provide Support For Terrorists
Posted by: Liam | Nov 12 2017 16:06 utc | 64
likklemore 62
I dont think thats fair (" Trump stays with Intel.").
I think that position by him is "ok" considering the hysteria going on - any other president would have quit seeking better relations with Russia by this time after all the hate and hysteria - Trump dont want to fall into the russian hysteria himself but he cant somehow arguing that he trust another nation before his own.
I think he says many good things on Russia but aslong as the hysteria going on, he cant really do anything to change the relations to the better.
Posted by: Anonynmous | Nov 12 2017 16:40 utc | 65
I expect that folks are reading about Trump backpedaling on the Russia situation and now supporting US intelligence agencies
And since events seem to be moving swiftly there is the link below from Reuters
The focus is now the Golan Heights
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 12 2017 16:45 utc | 66
...
"As to whether I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies, especially as currently constituted, with their leadership."[.]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Reminded of Schumer’s observation, Trump stays with Intel.
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 12, 2017 11:00:25 AM | 62
With due respect, it wasn't a reversal.
Had he said "I believe it and I'm with our agencies.." it would have been. But that's not what he said.
He was taking the heat out of the issue to get his cretinous critics to stfu while he's on the World Stage.
"Whether or not" leaves the door open for a redux in USA at a time of Trump's choosing.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 12 2017 16:48 utc | 67
@likklemore no. 62 Trump's way of playing the game appears to include both looking stupid, acting stupid, and contradicting himself continually, plus priding himself that once having said there should be release of the JFK files he'd better pretend he loves the CIA. So to "that's what Putin believes, but I'm with whatever I'm supposed to say at this moment, I'll deny whatever I need to re art of the deal and crazy like a fox . . ." Notice how much happier he looks lately as he apparently thinks he's figured out how to play the game.
Posted by: Sid2 | Nov 12 2017 16:50 utc | 68
@hoarsewhisperer no. 66 but you're right he's not stupid and possibly the most subtle and clever piece of what you quote is "especially as currently constituted" with shadings thereof--not the former intell agencies and their hokum directed via Clinton but MY agencies now concentrating on financial corruption from before the election. He's a master of ambiguity? (And survival/resilience.)
Posted by: Sid2 | Nov 12 2017 17:06 utc | 69
Let's face it: the warmongering neocons and neolibs are in control; the US public is going along, at least right now.
The US/UK/Saudi/Israel Axis is reacting to their defeat in Syria by upping the attack which has the potential to be a much more dangerous conflict than anything we have seen since WW2. (Will the EU again this time be with the Axis or stand aside?)
This is the apocalypse scenario that is acting unconsciously in the psyche of the West, heading straight at disaster.
Posted by: AriusArmenian | Nov 12 2017 19:25 utc | 70
AriusArminius 60
It has happened many times before - Sweden and Russia etc. - fear of a newly populous and technologizing competitor to the East .
Bu 1700 Czar Peter employed the best gun barell metalurgists in the world . Same old patterns but now nuclearized .
Posted by: ashley albanese | Nov 12 2017 19:35 utc | 71
What I see are people desperately trying to get other people to start a war.
Posted by: somebody | Nov 12 2017 19:38 utc | 72
The Golan Heights -- let's go!
How to visit the Golan HeightsKnowing how to visit the Golan Heights is not always simple, in the far north of Israel it is not quite as accessible as many of the other regions, however it’s a region steeped in history, natural beauty, and touristic attraction. Also, because of it’s remoteness and ‘off the beaten track’ feel, it’s really somewhere that visitors love to experience.
The Golan’s rugged landscape is not like elsewhere in Israel
When it comes to working out how to get to the Golan, there are three main options: join a day tour from Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, Tiberias or Nazareth, travel independently via public transport, or drive to the Golan. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2017 20:21 utc | 73
re: Russian interference in Brexit
they (MSM etc) were pushing that particular meme
in the weeks leading up to the vote.
(no particular evidence was ever put forward;
just that it was in Russia's interest for a Brexit vote)
everytime a politico (ie anyone in the MSM/entertainment industry)
came on TV and told me what i should or should be voting for, i switched off.
whatever the Russians were or were not up to made no difference to me.
i had already made up my mind about 15-20 years before. (pity it wasn't longer).
PS in European elections of 2014, UKIP came top with 26.6%.
a significant part of the Tory voters were and are anti-EU or eurosceptic.
less so were Labour party voters.
i think that shows where voters inclinations lay.
apparently voters preferences are, in the view of the "know-it alls/intelligentsia"
something to be dismissed out of hand.
Posted by: chris m | Nov 12 2017 23:27 utc | 74
ps also my attitude in the EU vote was
1.vote leave (Brexit camp happy) and
2.then ignore the voters and stay in anyway (Remain camp happy)
that way both sides get to be happy.
nearly every EU referendum i can recall over the past 20 yrs
has been overturned by the elites, who naturally no better than the voters.
Posted by: chris m | Nov 12 2017 23:33 utc | 75
@ Anonynmous | Nov 12, 2017 11:40:19 AM | 65
likklemore 62
I dont think thats fair (" Trump stays with Intel.").
Ok, let me re-phrase “Trump stays with Intel” to
“Trump sides with Intel’ due to backlash
From the link provided @ 62:
[As a result}, Trump was careful to make clear he sided with the intelligence agencies under his own leadership: "What I said is, I believe Putin believes that," Trump told reporters in Hanoi, Vietnam. "I believe that he feels that he and Russia did not meddle in the election. What he believes is what he believes."
Trump then added that "as to whether I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies, especially as currently constituted, with their leadership. I believe in our intel agencies. I've worked with them very strongly."The comment was made shortly after Trump tweeted that "When will all the haters and fools out there realize that having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. There always playing politics - bad for our country. I want to solve North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, terrorism, and Russia can greatly help!"
So let me know, maybe I missed the report on Trump manning the dredging equipment to drain the swamp OR did you miss Binney's meeting with CIA Director Pompeo?
The Intercept
CIA Director Met Advocate of Disputed DNC Hack Theory
https://theintercept.com/2017/11/07/dnc-hack-trump-cia-director-william-binney-nsa/
CIA DIRECTOR MIKE Pompeo met late last month with a former U.S. intelligence official who has become an advocate for a disputed theory that the theft of the Democratic National Committee’s emails during the 2016 presidential campaign was an inside job, rather than a hack by Russian intelligence.
Pompeo met on October 24 with William Binney, a former National Security Agency official-turned-whistleblower who co-authored an analysis published by a group of former intelligence officials that challenges the U.S. intelligence community’s official assessment that Russian intelligence was behind last year’s theft of data from DNC computers. Binney and the other former officials argue that the DNC data was “leaked,” not hacked, “by a person with physical access” to the DNC’s computer system.
In an interview with The Intercept, Binney said Pompeo told him that President Donald Trump had urged the CIA director to meet with Binney to discuss his assessment that the DNC data theft was an inside job. During their hour-long meeting at CIA headquarters, Pompeo said Trump told him that if Pompeo “want[ed] to know the facts, he should talk to me,” Binney said.[.]
Binney said that Pompeo asked whether he would be willing to meet with NSA and FBI officials to further discuss his analysis of the DNC data theft. Binney agreed and said Pompeo said he would contact him when he had arranged the meetings.It is highly unorthodox for the CIA director to reach out to someone like Binney, a 74-year-old ex-government employee who rose to prominence as an NSA whistleblower wrongfully persecuted by the government, for help with fact-finding related to the theft of the DNC emails.
It is particularly stunning that Pompeo would meet with Binney at Trump’s apparent urging, in what could be seen as an effort to discredit the U.S. intelligence community’s own assessment that an alleged Russian hack of the DNC servers was part of an effort to help Trump win the presidency.[.]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 13 2017 0:39 utc | 76
#30-Thanks Robert for your comment -apparently we do have lots of airhead who know nothing about PDJT except loath him.
Posted by: sejmon | Nov 13 2017 1:31 utc | 77
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 12, 2017 7:39:29 PM | 76
Again with due respect, the following cite from your comment means whatever Trump wants it to mean.
Trump then added that "as to whether I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies, especially as currently constituted, with their leadership. I believe in (?) our intel agencies. I've worked with them very strongly."
Here's why...
I've inserted the (?) to highlight the absence of a specific characteristic of intel agencies which would explain, and form the basis of, his unspecified "belief". In the absence of such information the statement is utterly meaningless. Imo.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 13 2017 7:36 utc | 78
@ Grieved 47. "Even as it shows the evil of the liars, it also shows the goodness of ordinary people."
There are parts of the culture that has given rise to the current hegemon and its hipocricy that I feel strongly about, but what you say in that sentance is also true.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 13 2017 10:21 utc | 79
likklemore 76
What could he say then? Wasnt that the best he could put it?
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 13 2017 13:07 utc | 80
Re: Posted by: likklemore | Nov 12, 2017 7:39:29 PM | 76
It's almost irrelevant who hacked/ leaked the DNC emails now, the narrative of "Russia did it" has been firmly established in the minds of the peons.
About the only thing that could overturn it would be large scale arrests and indictments and a proper reckoning on things like the murder of Seth Rich.
Can't say I'd be optimistic about any of that happening!
I would add - some important US political dates coming up Trump would no doubt be mindful of.
November 28, 2017 - Hearings being of Trump's pick for the Federal Reserve Jerome Powell. The US Senate Banking Committee - hard to see how they'll possibly have a problem with Powell.
Surely removing Janet Yellen constitutes some degree of 'Draining the Swamp' - and installing his own man for whatever purpose.
December 12, 2017 - US Senate Runoff in Alabama - Roy Moore (MAGA) v Doug Jones (D). There's been a lot of crap thrown at Judge Moore in recent days of very questionable veracity. If Moore survives the sh$tstorm and wins the Election this will be a definite PLUS for Trump regardless of his earlier support for Luther Strange (SwampRINO).
January 16, 2018 - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie leaves office. This is important because if New Jersey (corrupt) Senator Bob Menendez is convicted in the near future he may well be removed from office whilst Christie is still New Jersey Governor. If that happens you could have a Republican appointed to replace the corrupt Democrat - obviously good for Trump if it's someone he can count on. Could it be Christie appointing himself? Quite possibly.
Early February 2018 - Jerome Powell due to begin his term as US Federal Reserve Governor.
There are a few dates Trump would be well aware of coming up. Certainly I couldn't imagine Trump "rocking the boat" too much at least before mid-December with the US Senate race in Alabama out of the way - so no 'Night of the Long Knives' probably for 2017, or indeed early 2018 - maybe sometime after that - February/ March - I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sessions given the flick soon after his 1 Year Anniversary for instance which would be February/March - and once that happens there could be plenty of stuff to follow on closely behind.
@ Hoarsewhisperer 78
@ Anonymous 80
How many times has Trump walked-back or need to clarify his statements?
Let's agree global MSM will take every opportunity to demean Trump, deny him a favorable spin. However, are you not placing emphasis on nuances of language? Opinions only and, interpreting the written.
UK paper at the extreme:
Donald Trump now says Russia DID MEDDLE in US election in a bizarre security agency U-TURN
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/878516/Donald-Trump-Russia-interference-US-election-Vladimir-Putin-denial-north-korea-friendship
DONALD Trump made an extraordinary u-turn on Russian interference in last year’s US presidential election, within the period of just hours.
Yesterday, the US President said that he believes Vladimir Putin when he claims that he did not interfere with the November election.
However, at a press conference just hours later the US President said that he believed the views of the US intelligence agencies, who have already concluded that Russia intervened.He said: “As to whether I believe it or not, I'm with our agencies.” [.]
HOWEVER Trump needs to not waffle. Secretary of the Treasury on CBS' Face-The-Nation
"Mnuchin is in charge of implementing sanctions on Russia for alleged election meddling…"[.] but
‘Nobody thinks Russia had impact on election’ – US Treasury Secretary Mnuchin
https://www.rt.com/usa/409683-mnuchin-russia-election-impact/
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 13 2017 16:17 utc | 83
likklemore
To me he basically says he "agree with the agencies" - nothing else, it would be something if he said
something like: - "Yes Russia meddled in our election no doubt, they influenced voters and should be punished."
But he didnt because deep down it seems that that is not what he really think. He has so much hate and problem going on against him, to me - what he said was the only thing he could have said without backtracking completely imo.
At the same time, I wouldnt be surprised if he backtrack completely in the near future aslong as the hysteria keeps on.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 13 2017 16:37 utc | 84
Posted by: likklemore | Nov 13, 2017 11:17:23 AM | 83
I know what you mean. But I suspect you're forgetting that the subject of this thread is Trump's UNREPORTED remarks which are nowhere near as ambiguous as the highly ambiguous "belief" which some people found so persuasive.
To re-cap from b's post:
...
And then you look and you look what's going on with Podesta, and you look at what's going on with the server from the DNC and why didn't the FBI take it? Why did they leave it? Why did a third party look at the server and not the FBI? You look at all of this stuff, and you say, what's going on here? And you hear it's 17 agencies. Well its three. And one is Brennan. And one is whatever. I mean, give me a break. They're political hacks. So you look at it, and then you have Brennan, you have Clapper and you have Comey. Comey's proven now to be a liar and he's proven to be a leaker. So you look at that. And you have President Putin very strongly, vehemently say he has nothing to do with that.
...
So, as an intellectual exercise, I think it's quite amusing because Trump is emerging as at least the equal of The Swamp's ambiguity 'specialists'.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 13 2017 18:14 utc | 85
I found this link over at Xymphora. It's highly relevant to the Trump/ Swamp/ Russia Hacking rumour-mongering.
How to Instantly Prove (Or Disprove) Russian Hacking of U.S. Election
Posted on November 14, 2017 by WashingtonsBlog
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2017/11/70011.html
Although I know slightly less than nothing about computers, I found the case which the article makes (that NSA would and could easily discover the truth about the DNC leaks) persuasive.
Imo, the Trump remarks which inspired b to write this post suggest that Trump's advisors have acquainted with the NSA angle.
If someone here with computer knowledge could take 5 minutes read the article and report back here on its plausibility, I'd appreciate the feedback.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 15 2017 17:18 utc | 86
86
Also Shadow Brokers.
From what has been used against Trump to date, everything has been recorded and studied for ways to get at Trump, but all that they have been able to extract is very selective bits and pieces that can be used for inuendo and nothing more. There is always the possibility that something is being held back for blackmail.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 15 2017 17:45 utc | 87
Sorry. The Trump-Putin connection is real. Donald Trump is not clever, just ruthless. It will do nobody any good to deny that. The problem is that he is incompetent as well. Perhaps Mr. Putin overlooked this, or didn't really care. Unfortunately it has blown up in his face, though it remains to be seen if in the end the US falls into chaos.
Posted by: Alan Harvey | Nov 18 2017 7:38 utc | 88
The comments to this entry are closed.
"Trump is not the brightest bulb and he is not well informed. I dislike nearly all of his policies. But he understands that the "Russian hacking" narrative is false and is carried by lunatic political hacks who want to push the U.S. back into a cold, or maybe even hot war with Russia, China, Iran and probably everyone else."
I couldn't agree more B. The distraction to cover up the DNC crimes and the 'pay to play' antics during HRC's tenure at SECState are part of this nonsense as well.
Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 11 2017 19:15 utc | 1