Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 17, 2017

NATO Adds To Turkey's Chagrin

There has long been speculation about a Turkish good-bye to NATO.

The U.S. and its military proxy organization in Europe are doing their best to further such a move:

The image of Atatürk was displayed as a target during the drill at NATO’s Joint Warfare Center in Stavanger, Norway held between Nov. 8 and Nov. 17, while a NATO soldier posted defamatory words about Erdoğan on the social media.

Atatürk is the founder of the secular Turkey. He was designated as "target" during a desk-top drill. NATO's Joint Warfare Center is not a low level school but an elite officer training institution led by a Major-General. The 40 Turkish soldiers who attended the training course were immediately ordered back home.

Secularists in Turkey have long suspected NATO as promoting "moderate Islamists". That belief is not without factual ground. U.S. President Obama allied with the Muslim Brotherhood during the so called "Arab Spring". But the second incident at the very same NATO institution points to a more comprehensive anti-Turkish position:

A Kurdish-origin Norwegian officer signed up to a social networking website within NATO, using a fake account in the name of President Erdoğan and sharing posts against the organization.

To vilify the Turkish secularist hero Atatürk and its Islamist President Erdogan in related occasions is a comprehensive move against the whole country.

NATO's political spokesperson Jens Stoltenberg, a Norwegian politician, apologized for the incidents. It will soothe no one.

A comparable incident happened in 2006. U.S. Lt. Colonel Ralph Peters published a map with redrawn borders of Middle East in the Armed Forces Journal. The map showed a "Free Kurdistan" and Turkey cut to half its size.

The map was then presented by an American colonel at the NATO’s Defense College in Rome while Turkish officers were attending. An uproar ensued and the U.S. had to apologize.

In July 2016 parts of the Turkish military attempted a coup against Erdogan. Turkish jets which attacked the capitol Ankara had launched from the U.S. and NATO base in Incirlik. When the attempt failed several NATO countries granted asylum to Turkish officers who did not want to return to their home country.

After the failed coup Turkey decided to buy Russian air defense systems. The move makes sense. The alternative U.S. systems are suspected to be ineffective against attacking U.S. planes and missiles. The Russian S-400 systems is designed to counter threats from U.S. weapons.

Turkey is a partner in the U.S. F-35 fighter jet program. It has plans to purchase one hundred of them. Now the U.S. Air Force suggests that the deal could be restricted:

If Turkey moves forward with its buy of a Russian air defense system, it will not be permitted to plug into NATO technology, and further action may be forthcoming that could affect the country’s acquisition or operation of the F-35, a top Air Force official said Wednesday.
Analysts worry that Turkey operating both the S-400 and F-35 together could compromise the jet’s security, as any data collected by the air defense system and obtained by Russia could help expose the joint strike fighter’s vulnerabilities. For a platform like the F-35, whose major strengths are its stealth and data fusion capabilities, that would be a disaster.

[The deputy undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, Heidi] Grant, agreed that a S-400 acquisition creates issues for Turkey’s use of the F-35.
Her comments echoed those of Gen. Petr Pavel, chairman of NATO’s military committee. In October, Pavel said that Turkey is free, as a sovereign nation, to make its own decisions in regards to military procurement, but will face “consequences” if a S-400 buy goes through.

Buying a Russian air defense system is not unprecedented for a NATO state. In 1997 Cyprus bought Russian S-300 systems, ironically to defend against Turkish jets. The Cyprus Missile Crisis ensued and the weapons ended up in Greece where they also serve to keep the Turks away. Greece also flies U.S. made jets.

In Syria the U.S. is arming, training and fighting together with the YPK, a sister organization of the Kurdish PKK which is pursuing a guerilla campaign against the Turkish army and state.

The personal disparaging of Turkish politicians by NATO, U.S. involvement in a coup attempt, restrictions on weapon buys and U.S. cooperation with Turkey's enemy are amounting to an open affront. 

It is obvious that NATO is no longer a reliable ally for Turkey. This view is independent of who holds the Turkish presidency. The strategic situation would not change if Erdogan would be replaced by some secular nationalist figure.

Turkey fields NATO's second biggest army. With more than 80 million people it is a large emerging military and economic power. It controls the Bosporus and thereby access to the Black Sea. It has influence in the Balkans as well as in the Central Asian "Stans". It is a crossing point for major energy pathways including the new Russian TurkStream pipeline which will deliver Russian gas to south-Europe.

The is little that hinders Turkey from leaving NATO and from joining a tacit alliance with Russia. Russian fighter jets are as good as the U.S. designed F-35. Even Turkey's economic interests seem to be better aligned with Russia's than with north-Europe or the United States. The voices in Turkey that demand a realignment are gaining ground. The editors of the Erdogan friendly Daily Sabah write:

The U.S. is not the enemy, but neither is it acting like a friend. Its actions are against Turkey's interests as well as its own. Now is the right time for Turkey to formulate its own independent regional policy.

Russia and Iran with their sounder anti-Daesh and counterterrorism policies need to be at the center of measures Turkey will implement from now on. After all that's happened, one thing is certain: The U.S. should definitely be kept out of Turkey's regional policy concerns.

The Zionist lobby in the U.S. has long argued to kick Turkey out of NATO. Such a separation may indeed come true. But it would be Turkey that would leave NATO and not the other way around. The effects would be quite different than those expected a decade ago.

Posted by b on November 17, 2017 at 19:22 UTC | Permalink


More you Piss Off Turkey, more it goes East !!(Is this the Policy of US?) No Issues, Turkey and Erdogan have thumbed it's Nose to USA and is in Secret block of Russia, China & Pakistan. It will Seek it's Ottoman Glory with the "Stans" of Central Asia. Just gave Pakistan $1.45 million Line of Credit & full "Technology Transfer" of A129 Attack Helicopters to Pakistan. Russian M400 Missiles, etc etc. US keeps eyes closed, World is closing in Fast. And Mr Trump is losing faster. Disaster trip to Asia. China spun a great spell. US is going down.

Posted by: shaw | Nov 17 2017 19:49 utc | 1

The US admnistration hates Erdogan and he hates them in return.
After it failed to kick Erdogan out with the 'amateurish' coup, opponents to Erdogan who are in NATO and in the US administration are doing all they can to undermine Erdogan, to put him in the defensive, to isolate him and to weaken him even more. They are working so he won't be elected president in 2019 and Turkey would be ripe for compromises on Palestine.
It is part of Trump's strategy to force an Israel-Palestinian peace plan worked out by Zionists advisors to Trump. The opponents to this plan, Syria,Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kuwait and Hamas are been subjected to all sorts of assaults to destabilize them and make weaker so they have no choice than to bow.
Parallely Trump is also weakening Israel as he wants serious compromise that the jewish State is not ready to give. Therefore a campaign against Netanyahu is going on to weaken him or replace him.

We will therefore not see large attacks but relentless small attacks on these countries..
In the hands of Trump, Jared, MBS and Netanyahu, the 'plan' risks to make Iran Greater and Saudi Arabia and the USA Smaller!

Posted by: Virgile | Nov 17 2017 19:50 utc | 2

Nato/coalition/US will have to decide if they are with the YPG in Syria or with Turkey.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17 2017 20:10 utc | 3

add to 3

Looks like a campaign Time to kick Turkey out of NATO

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17 2017 20:13 utc | 4

"The purchase...could help expose the joint strike fighter’s vulnerabilities."
Hahahahah, good joke, the F-35 is a billion dollar deathtrap. To be prevented from purchasing them would be a godsend for Turkey.

Posted by: frances | Nov 17 2017 20:49 utc | 5

Turkey has long played the fan dance between East (Russia) and West (Western European powers).
This time is no different. It was just a few years ago that Turkey was such a friend to the US and European interests.
The failed coup, however, has changed that but still only time will tell if this is a structural change or just the latest flip flop.

Posted by: C1ue | Nov 17 2017 21:21 utc | 6

The structural problem of "macro NATO" concept is that it puts together countries that have very little in common, or more precisely, with many seething mutual conflicts. That would matter little if there was a unifying threat, but nothing like that exists.

Supporting Turkey and "free Kurdistan" is an obvious hard case, but Turkey has checkered relationship with KSA+UAE -- while being close to Qatar, and with Greece. Greece and Bulgaria have no enmity toward Russia, although the current government seems to follow anti-Russian line.

Then there is an issue why countries far from Russia and lacking alternative "enemies" or post-colonial clients should strive to keep defense spending at NATO agreed level of 2% of GDP. And huge prices of NATO approved weapon systems. Lithuania increased military spending to the "required 2%" and it still cannot afford tanks (I did not check other Baltic states). Clearly, arms race is cheaper for Russia that has complete domestic military industry, lower costs and more cost aware process of weapon design, so the scheme to beggar Russia with arms race is good only for the overfed western arms producers.

Turkey has decent economy and good strategic position: key straits under control and complicated mountain ranges along problematic borders, so it should survive leaving NATO without loosing quiet sleep. At worst, they should improve relationship with neighbors and their own Kurds, and NATO is more hindrance than help in that respect.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 17 2017 21:22 utc | 7

C1ue | Nov 17, 2017 4:21:05 PM | 6

„The failed coup, however, has changed that but still only time will tell if this is a structural change or just the latest flip flop.“
Please be not that much sure about this coup. People who are better informed do not share the estimation that it was a Western-plotted thing, at least not in its final execution. Some people in Turkey call it a controlled coup. True is that this „moderate Islam“ thing was supported by the West, including Saudi-Arabia, but Erdogan/AKP knew this, used its benefits until the very last moment and Erdogan himself welcomed the dirty tricks that his (Gülen-) police people used against his Kemalist opposition.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 17 2017 21:44 utc | 8

Hariri in Paris tonight.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 17 2017 21:50 utc | 9

Turkey is the familiar story of "the West" supporting islamists against the Soviet Union/Russia, and islamists "hating the West".

The Soviet Union supported left wing, communist groups. Part of Russia's establishment is religious, ultranationalist now and they have no problem allying with religious, right wing parties eg AKP, in competition with the US.

There is a Russia supported US evangelical right wing which may have been a US supported Russian religious right wing in the beginning.

The irony of globalisation.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17 2017 22:03 utc | 10

I can't help but notice that Turkey would have avoided all these problems entirely if they had refused to allow terrorists to attack Syria from its territory from the very beginning. Without Turkey, the war against Syria would have collapsed before it even started, saving everyone enormous heartache and pain.

Posted by: lysander | Nov 17 2017 22:39 utc | 11

Thank you Mina for your update on Hariri. I take it that some of the Hariri clan will remain in the Saudi kingdom as guests of the Saudi/Israeli Clown Prince.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 17 2017 23:07 utc | 12

ok, but anyway, never trust a turk...

Posted by: Dario | Nov 17 2017 23:14 utc | 13

12 with family.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17 2017 23:18 utc | 14

NATO is a multi-purpose US/UK/Israel Proxy Force and a Figleaf for offensive Full Spectrum Dominance. Other member states are there because there are pictures of their leaders with their pants down.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 18 2017 0:18 utc | 15

Unbelievable. Why antagonize Turkey/Erdogan so directly?

No, really ... it's unbelievable. Such 'social proof' of a NATO-Turkish rift will no doubt cause Vlad to allow Erdogan certain liberties ... like remaining in Idlib and standing in the way of improved Kurdish-Syria relations.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 0:26 utc | 16

Lysander @11--

An unavoidable truth being swept under the rug, most certainly! Erdogan is every bit as responsible for the deaths, mayhem and destruction as Obama and other facilitators. A trial followed by the gallows is what their fate ought to be. Erdogan may have changed his direction due to external factors, but his initial direction and the crimes he ordered to occur cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2017 0:34 utc | 17

@10 somebody's jewish paranoia has been triggered (again)

"Russia supported US Evangelical right wing" is almost as laughable as "Russia hacked the election" with $100k in facebook ads.

The evidence-free allegation in the first link ...

Russia’s masters, whether political or ecclesiastical, have generally been skilled at cultivating friendships and tactical alliances ...
... is promptly contradicted by:
... there will always be limits to the relationship between the Russian Orthodox and America’s evangelicals. Theologically, they are a long way apart.... [and US] Evangelicals tend to be philo-Semitic and pro-Israel [and] tend to be uncompromisingly anti-Islam, but conservative Russian Christians ... get along quite well with traditionalist Muslims ... And it is hard to argue that Russian society has anything to teach America about “family values”; rates of divorce and abortion are much higher in Russia than in America.

Then there is the issue of religious freedom in Russia. The meeting on Christian persecution that recently convened in Washington, DC, was originally scheduled to take place in Moscow; but the venue was changed after Russia passed a law that curbed evangelical missionary work, upsetting American Protestants.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 0:44 utc | 18

I understand that b's English is his second language. His English syntax is excellent. But he does confuse a number of verb/noun words. In the current article he uses believe (v) instead of the noun belief. In the past I noticed confusion between some other n/v pairs such as relieve/relief which are part of a number of n/v pairs that have tortured people learning English such as shelf/shelve life/live grief/grieve half/halve safe/save.

Posted by: ToivoS | Nov 18 2017 2:45 utc | 19

Thanks for the Turkey update b although I have to agree with TovioS that this posting has some English issues.

The only one that stopped me for a second was in the last sentence where you have "quote" instead of "quite".

Blessing to b for the efforts he goes through so us English language folks don't have to translate his likely impeccable German.

To the posting matter....Turkey is just part of the realignment of nations that is occurring before our eyes. I keep wanting to see a chart of the evolving multipolar world but the game is still in play so one must practice patience....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 18 2017 3:08 utc | 20

@ToivoS 20

"I understand that b's English is his second language. His English syntax is excellent. But he does confuse a number of verb/noun words."

Is this garbled post written in your first language? I would certainly hate to have to decipher your second language, assuming that you are even fluent in more than one. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Besides, the occasional small spelling or grammar error does even approach the level of obnoxiousness of a grammar Nazi, especially when that Nazi cannot even write as clearly as the victim of his flaming.

Posted by: Heros | Nov 18 2017 7:37 utc | 21

ref Harir+wife in Paris
I suspect the Lebanese Christians have put all their weight in the balance "it's us or KSA" maybe threatening to open up some files...
But pressure on Iran will continue as a way to start again the never-ending so-called "peace" process.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 18 2017 8:21 utc | 22

Btw according to RFI Hariri will be received at the Elysée Palace in his quality of PM of Lebanon. So the script is made to satisfy Aoun, while the barks are left to Le Drian (who was vocal against Iranian intereference in Arab affairs -sic these ppl have no shame, given their background and current action in Africa). But poor Le Drian is a remain from Hollande's gov, where he was the minister of defense (and is now FM in Macron's gov). They probably kept him so that he has time to make disappear a number of embarrassing papers related to French policy in Syria.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 18 2017 8:48 utc | 23

Turkey leaving NATO would strengthens the prospects for peace in Europe, and maybe world-wide. See my article:

Posted by: Thomas Bargatzky | Nov 18 2017 9:52 utc | 24

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 17, 2017 7:44:52 PM | 18

Yes, it is fun. Russia has fixed the Soviet Union's weakness - religion - but the US did not fix its weakness - relying on religion for geopolitics.

By the way, there is no use to look for logic. I still do not grasp the resasoning that could explain the nationalist international.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 9:52 utc | 25

@ 20 & 21Language scolds galore. What a bunch of small-minded, ungrateful twats---arrogant, to boot.

Posted by: Quentin | Nov 18 2017 9:59 utc | 26

@13 Dario,

You mean relative to Israelis, Americans, Greeks, Brits, etc.? Frankly, I'd sooner trust a Turk.

Posted by: Blue | Nov 18 2017 10:03 utc | 27

somebody 26

Read more history books and lots of Marxist philosophy - when you knead the geo-politics with the dialectical peregrenations it does add up - BUT very tragically with the coming of Hitler's war .

Posted by: ashley albanese | Nov 18 2017 10:14 utc | 28

Thomas Bargatzky | Nov 18, 2017 4:52:18 AM | 25

Unfortunately you miss to take into consideration the faith of the people living in Turkey. Why should they contiue to suffer under the present regime? Just for other peoples geopolitical dreams? Assumed that leaving the NATO would be possibly only for Erdogan and he might need this for defending his political grip.
For non-German readers: the coalescence of former leftists („seminary marixists“) points of view with those of the new-right is nowadays an often seen thing in case they are above a critical age.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 18 2017 10:36 utc | 29

Posted by: ashley albanese | Nov 18, 2017 5:14:55 AM | 29

Marxism explains a lot of things - but not the craziness of people.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 18, 2017 5:36:44 AM | 30

Same as it ever was. See above on people's craziness. National "Socialism" was purposely designed as a cross-over to compete in the streets.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 10:55 utc | 30

De facto, Turkey is effectively not consistent with NATO. A ceremonial relationship remains to provide the cover of respective dignity. Erdogan is easily insulted yet acts under such impulse. The Russians are gliding around showing respect. The American continue to insult, bully, fuel adversaries.

Turkey is gone. The separation will take time, be in layers but the momentum is in play. Russia is the big winner, Assad is further secured, the Kurds are curbed all round, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran form a functioning bloc.

Posted by: Robert McMaster | Nov 18 2017 11:21 utc | 31

Some think Erdogan is the prince of the north of Jewish and some Christian eschatologies. Ha aretz had an article on the possibility 2 or 3 years ago. Meanwhile the king of the south has erected his tents between the holy mountain and the sea.

Posted by: gut bugs galore | Nov 18 2017 11:26 utc | 32

Hariri with his wife but not with their kids

Posted by: Mina | Nov 18 2017 11:32 utc | 33

psychohistorian | Nov 17, 2017 10:08:57 PM | 21

Reminds me somewhat of musical chairs.
When the music stops...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Nov 18 2017 11:41 utc | 34

Robert McMaster | Nov 18, 2017 6:21:59 AM | 32

That may be correct; but Egypt is not firm; the rest? Yes.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Nov 18 2017 11:44 utc | 35

V. Arnold | Nov 18, 2017 6:44:42 AM | 36
Addendum: Russia is yet the wild card; they play well; giving no tell...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Nov 18 2017 11:47 utc | 36

@32 this explains the coming war with lebanon and then iran. The pressure is on the zionist and their puppets to act fast, hezbollah, iran and russia dont take the baite, maybey turkey wil and leave the nato.

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 18 2017 11:48 utc | 37

32 Egypt is very dependent on Saudi.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 11:56 utc | 38

I wrote above that this is NOT an issue of Erdogan. It is a Turkish national issue which makes it way more serious. It would not change if Erdogan would vanish tomorrow.

On cue: Turkey’s opposition seeks more than apology from NATO

Speaking at an event in Ankara on Saturday, Republican People's Party (CHP) leader Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu said they cannot accept the “insult” towards Turkey's history and today's Turkey.

He said they expect a satisfactory statement from the NATO officials regarding the incident.

"It is not a topic that can be avoided with an ordinary 'we apologize' thing," Kılıçdaroğlu said, adding "Nobody can insult Turkey's (current) executives and history. We strongly condemn this.”

Posted by: b | Nov 18 2017 12:37 utc | 39

Somebody @39

Egypt was very dependent on Saudi

Egypt To Receive Three Divisions Of Russian S-300VM Air Defense Systems

The layers of the state sponsored terror system are gradually being pulled back one by one. All that will be left are the core players.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2017 12:41 utc | 40

@TovioS @20 - @Heros - @22

FU both. Of course I make mistakes in my writings. There will always be some typos or other issues.

There is no need to utter some sneaky epic about them. Address me directly with corrections or shut the fuck up.

[comment corrected - sorry Heros - in my fury I misread you - b.]

Posted by: b | Nov 18 2017 12:44 utc | 41

40 who is paying?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 13:04 utc | 42

somebody @26:

there is no use to look for logic.
The logic is quite clear actually: oligarchs and fundamentalists play upon our fears. Exaggerating tenuous connections to concoct some global conspiracy of Christian nationalists plays upon fears of Jews and other minorities.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 13:11 utc | 43


Heros@22 was defending you.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 13:22 utc | 44

42 who is working?

Posted by: Mina | Nov 18 2017 13:35 utc | 45


concoct some global conspiracy of Christian nationalists


The world congress for families is global, right?

I did not know the term "Christian nationalism", thanks, it proves my point.

Basic law of Christianity "Love your neighbour as yourself

Definition of neighbour - Oxford dictionary

Any person in need of one's help or kindness (after biblical use)‘love thy neighbour as thyself’

Definition of nationalism - Merriam webster

Definition of nationalism 1 :loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.

2 :a nationalist movement or government

opposing nationalisms

There is of course more stuff like "love thy ennemies" or "turn the other cheek"

Do you really think the combination of the words Christian and nationalism make sense?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 13:50 utc | 46

It's interesting that Peters' map concentrated on the middle east. Where are his maps for the rest of the world? (those would look interesting, too) Or is it only the middle east where it is intended to redraw the maps?

McMaster 32
"ceremonial relationship" is about right rather like a "functional marriage." There is no love. The Turks served their purpose back in the anti-Soviet ages and as a staging ground for the anti-Assad jihadi proxies and now the relationship sounds like a loose alliance.

Posted by: Curtis | Nov 18 2017 14:25 utc | 47

To be honest this just seems like the consequence of a large wave of Kurdish immigrants to Norway.

Posted by: Altai | Nov 18 2017 14:38 utc | 48

"Russian fighter jets are as good as the U.S. designed F-35."

Dunno about that. The F-35 is a disaster of military procurement and cost-effectiveness and no-doubt the F-35A and C are less than they could be, but they're still (1:1) more advanced and deadly than any Russian warplane.

Posted by: Altai | Nov 18 2017 14:42 utc | 49

somebody @47:

I did not know the term "Christian nationalism" ... Do you really think the combination of the words Christian and nationalism make sense?

Stop with the BS. The Politico article that YOU linked to @10 tries hard to make a connection between Christians and Nationalists:

The former speechwriter for Richard Nixon [Buchanan] and intellectual flag-bearer of paleoconservatism — that authoritarian strain of thought linking both white nationalists and US President Donald Trump—wrote that Russian President Vladimir Putin was “entering a claim that Moscow is the Godly City of today[.]”
. . .

And Moscow’s grip at the tiller of a globally resurgent right has only tightened since. Not only have Russian banks funded groups like France’s National Front, but Moscow has hosted international conferences ...

... Putin [has] ... dissolved the distance between the Kremlin and the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church. All of his moves pointed toward a hard-right shift in outlook — to a return to Tsar Nicholas I’s triumvirate of “Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality.” America’s Christian fundamentalists followed Putin’s moves with glee ...

... a few months after the Kremlin upended the post-Cold War order, Russia was coalescing support from far-right forces across the West, ranging from the white nationalists who would buoy Trump’s campaign to political groups bent on fracturing NATO and the European Union.

Buchanan's white Nationalist connections are used to imply a Nationalist-fundamentalist connection. Russian support for the Nationalist politics (Trump, and National Front) and religious fundamentalists are linked with Putin (the embodiment of evil, in the eyes of those that buy into what this article is pushing) who, we are told, is merging Church and State.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Again, this is all "Russia hacked ...", "never Trump", Antifa nonsense.

Those who become a vector for this nonsense are being used or are complicit.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 15:17 utc | 50

The whole concept of Turkey joining NATO, back then, was to block USSR influence in the Caucasus and ME, and in a certain way to flank USSR presence in Central/Eastern Europe. It seems most of the current NATO military leaders, under the "exceptionalism bandwagon" have forgotten that, under the pre concept that central and eastern Europe are no longer under the influence of nowadays Russia (former USSR), and that Turkey could be dispensable since it is no longer following orders from NATO nor its ambitions to become part of EU any longer a lifetime need.
The interesting aspect of the above concept is that, NATO without Turkey, will be in fact flanked in Central/Eastern Europe, and will lose most if not all influence in the Caucasus and finally will risk be reduced to irrelevant in the TMENA region.
One can see the statement above true int he recent failures by NATO in Iraq (Kurdistan independency campaign), Syria (political and armed forces committed to it) and Yemen (weapons sales and control of the red sea straits). Soon, NATO will also see its destruction plan in Libya reverted by the LNA/Tobruk Government and letting Russian regain a very important footing again in North Africa with a clear strategy from Morocco all the way to Egypt. So much for flanking strategy...
Another point of reference is the vague possibility that Turkey will move alway form the Muslin Brotherhood concept, this is very uncertain still, but with Qatar in a new bandwagon and both Turkey and Qatar relationship with Iran improving, it may bring Turkey/Qatar out of MB/radical islamist movement. This is a stretch and wishful thought, but IF it happens, then the approach between Iran, Turkey and Qatar, under the strong help of Russia, could bridge Egypt into a powerful TMENA alliance, one that would leave the other GCC & Israel in a deep isolation and surrounded by foes.
All the above could not be possible with Turkey inside NATO, but outside NATO, the possibilities are huge and all of them play against NATO. That is a fact.

Posted by: Canthama | Nov 18 2017 15:49 utc | 51

Heros@22 was defending you.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18, 2017 8:22:20 AM | 45

With equally unhelpful verbosity?
Anyway, b's attitude to 'help' is now crystal clear.
And unambiguous. And brief.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 18 2017 16:33 utc | 52

Why would nato use an image of one of their own members as a enemy, makes no sense. No wonder Turkey are mad.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18 2017 16:52 utc | 53

For the Prose Police, Helpful Grammarians, and those Obsessed with Form not Content——

address your concerns thusly:
You can reach the current administrator of this site by emailing Bernhard at (replacing _at_ with @).

Carry on . . .

Posted by: Red Ryder | Nov 18 2017 17:21 utc | 54

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 18, 2017 11:52:07 AM | 54

Christian Colonialism is devoted to theft, hypocrisy and genocide. Its disciples amuse each other by faking sincerity when delivering jokes about Ethics and Good Taste when gloating about the spoils during post-plunder orgies.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 18 2017 17:54 utc | 55

b | Nov 18, 2017 7:37:58 AM | 40
Within this context Kilicdaroglu's speech does not mean much. He must serve nationalistic feelings of his own political basis as well. One should not forget that ca. 30-40% of the CHP followers are mainly nationalists as well. I will not argue against Turkey leaving the NATO. But you has to be aware as well that this trip is a desperate escape for Erdogan in first line. His political life depends on a sound success at the elections. The well trained cheating does not count for more than 4-5%. In this moment he has lost the majority, his main partner MHP is derailed, falls into pieces in the moment. The media, that he controls to nearly 100%, are now supporting the rival of Bahceli, a right-wing lady named Aksener. She will mobilize with celar anti-Erdogan speeches and if she will come over the 10% hurdle she will support Erdogan, breaking all her promises. Such cheating is, as of now, his only left chance. If he fails he is done. Tiny fractions of his misdoings would finish him and his „system“ at court. Everybody there knows it.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 18 2017 18:05 utc | 56


I wouldn't characterize them as 'Christian Nationalists', but rather as 'Authoritarian Nationalists', and they are at the heart of conservative politics in every country.

I sincerely doubt that there is a conspiracy of these Nationalists, led by Moscow or otherwise.

There is however a conspiracy of 'Global Elitists' or 'Globalists', whose goal is to destroy national sovereignty across the world. And Politico is a primary propaganda outlet for the 'Globalists'.

The fact that 'Authoritarian Nationalists' are leading the fight against the 'Globalists' around the world is not surprising. However I see this as the authoritarian nationalist (conservative) movements of the different countries fighting individually to save their countries from the destruction of the 'Globalists'.

It is interesting that the 'Globalists', through their propaganda outlet Politico, are crying 'Conspiracy'. They need to look in the mirror to see the real fascist conspirators.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 18 2017 18:14 utc | 57

dh-mtl @58

I agree. I mistakenly used the term "Christian Nationalists" to refer Christians who are also Nationalist. I was led to do so by the references in the Politico article that was clearly attempting to smear globalists opponents via association with Putin.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 18:22 utc | 58

Address me directly with corrections of shut the fuck up.

B, er, that should be "... or shut the fuck up." ;)

It's bad enough that some people apparently just can't resist criticizing and correcting imperfect grammar-- but it's even worse when they preface such supercilious corrections with patronizing disclaimers.

That is, the grammar nannies add insult to injury when admitting that they "understand" why minor grammatical flaws are bound to occur, and implying that they don't mean to be offensively bumptious when they bring it to everyone's attention in the comments thread.

This veneer of apology is just a fig leaf to cover their petty personal satisfaction in needlessly pointing out someone else's imperfections.

Posted by: Ort | Nov 18 2017 18:28 utc | 59

@56 It's amazing that the victims like Christian colonial gadgets.... cars, planes, TVs, cellphones, education, medicine etc.. Some of them even want to live in Christian colonial countries!

Posted by: dh | Nov 18 2017 19:20 utc | 60

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18, 2017 10:17:13 AM | 51

51 All I know is that there is no connection between nationalism and christianity quite the contrary. Religion is and has always been transnational. Nationalism came into existence when religion stopped being the foundation of earthly power. There is an antagonism between the two.

What I am saying, and what you don't seem to be able to grasp, is that Russia has managed to fix the weakness of the Soviet Union - its enmity to religion, any religion, which opened the USSR to destabilization by fundamental religious groups. They fixed that a while ago. While the US are still supporting "anti-western - anti-enlightenment - values" groups in a stupid geopolitical game that turns the tables against them - leaving no rational ally supporting them.

Christian - missionary - religion is by definition - go out and teach the world - globalist. And nationalism is globalist, too, as the intention is to conquer the world, or can you cite any historic instance where a nationalist country did not change its borders by war, starting from the US and French revolutions. Never mind that what constitutes a nation has no definition.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 20:08 utc | 61

@ dh-mtl with the useful characterization of the elite factions, Globalists and Authoritarian Nationalists

Thanks for those groupings and that synopsis.

I do though believe that we need to keep in focus that both groups are patriarchal, propertarians and private Central banks and international finance tools ( SWIFT, BIS, IMF) at their core. These are the tenets of our society that are under pressure currently and may evolve as part of current events.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 18 2017 20:09 utc | 62

Posted by: dh | Nov 18, 2017 2:20:05 PM | 61

Christian colonial gadgets.... cars, planes, TVs, cellphones, education, medicine etc.

Christianity stopped science for a few centuries. Remember Galileo?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 18 2017 20:13 utc | 63

@50, wrt F-35

Bullshit. Kinematically, and in terms of payload, F-35 is a disaster. Assuming its avionics and sensors are first class is a safe bet, but not likely better than current Ru equivalents, generally. Not so stealthy to begin with, and counter-stealth tech -- incl L-band radar & electro-optical systems -- render it pretty moot.
I'd bet big money that e.g. the Israeli AF would rather have a Su-35 and Su-34 mix than any F-35s. Su-57 another level. F-35 a profound disaster, emblematic of American decline due to corruption, decadence. It has a lot of nice engineering, the STOVL version is very impressive but offers little in terms of operational benefit. What kills it is kinematics, maintenance overhead. It's a mediocre platform, fielding weapons that, at best, match Ru equivalents.
If US MIC wanted to ameliorate the situation, they'd be pushing new overhauled versions of F-22 and also F-23 (potentially a heavier and stealthier platform than F-22) for the high-end game. For the lo in hi-lo they need to look at cheap simple robust -- improvised airstrip capable F-16 kind of craft, maybe an overhauled A-10 with rudimentary AA capables.

Posted by: Terebinth | Nov 18 2017 21:45 utc | 64

For example could put F-35's engine into a modernized F-16 airframe -- much less drag -- would be a good cheap and deadly low-level tactical fighter. Still a big hole in the high-end, need to further develop F-22 etc for this.

Posted by: Terebinth | Nov 18 2017 21:57 utc | 65

Somebody @62

Your intellectual somersaults bought a smile to my face.

I think we know what you’re up to.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2017 23:04 utc | 66

About high tech air force: the main question is what wars a state can wage. For example, take KSA. The largest potential war opponent is Iran which cannot have high tech air force in the near future, so it would rely chiefly on small ship navy and missiles. Against such opponents, exceeding necessary specifications is just a waste of money, something that Gulfies raised to the level of perfection. Number two would be Iraq that could launch attacks by motorized infantry, taking leaf from ISIS in minimizing the effectiveness of air force in desert warfare; I guess in involves dispersion of highly mobile forces and masking, and the best countermeasure are slow planes and helicopters in large numbers. Number three, Yemen. Fighting dispersed mobile infantry requires a huge number of hours spend in the air, and for that, you must have bases near the battlefield. The strategy of using fast planes from very distant airports that are refueled in the air allows to handle relatively immobile targets like funerals, weddings, factories, school, hospitals and living quarters, but military targets move, build shelters and mask.

The need for high tech arises if your opponent has either high tech planes of its own, or high tech air defense. Somehow, I do not see any compelling reason for Turkey to have a fleet of 100 high tech planes.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 18 2017 23:52 utc | 67

If [Erdogan] fails [in the next elections] he is done. Tiny fractions of his misdoings would finish him and his „system“ at court. Everybody there knows it.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 18, 2017 1:05:14 PM | 57

Erdogan can come short in many fields of expertise, like grand strategy, redesigning city parks, or identifying Islamic antiquities (he discovered them in Cuba, hm), but electoral politics, dirty and clean, is where he is best.

He has a good stab at eliminating HDP by arresting enough of them, putting sufficiently many districts under martial law etc. As court system etc. is increasingly of his molding, he may increase the "cheating premium" and also, he does not need to be overly worried about trials against him and his cronies. CHP seem reliably under the leadership of unimaginative old foggies.

But he needs some clean positive ways to energize his electorate, and "standing proud against the West and half-brain Gulfie princes can fit there.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 19 2017 0:03 utc | 68

With the Zarrab trial in NY, the fate of Erdogan may be almost totally under the control the USA
If Zarrab the turk-iranian business man is implicated with Flynn in the Gulen kidnapping plan, Erdogan will be panicking.
Zarrab can put to light the corruption of Erdogan, his family and the AKP.
The USA will use that to blackmail Erdogan or end his carreer if he refuses to collaborate, principally on the Israeli-Palestinian deal been worked out by Jared and MBS on the back of Iran and the Palestinians.
Erdogan maybe once again in a trap with little leeway

Does cooperating witness have info on Flynn tie to Turkey?

Posted by: Virgile | Nov 19 2017 1:00 utc | 69

Ataturk would have killed Erdogan. Ataturk set up the army as the guardian of secularism. He understood his new country. The EU, not so much. The EU chided Turkey for having a system where the Army has political power when Turkey was making overtures to join the EU. And the EU called Erdogan and his party "Mildly Islamic". So, its entirely inappropriate that NATO uses Ataturk's picture as a target. They should have been using Erdogan's picture.

Posted by: gdpbull | Nov 19 2017 2:22 utc | 70

@32/41 Yes. Egypt is seeing the light with IS on its western borders killing copts and regular attacks in the Sinai area (bordering right on the Neguev, unsurprisingly). It knows it cant have a 2 front war and also pulled out of the Yemen « expedition ». It will suck on Saudi & US money but its heart rests with the anti-salafi resistance..

Posted by: Lozion | Nov 19 2017 7:43 utc | 71

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18, 2017 6:04:16 PM | 67

Of course, rational thought is a global conspiracy.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 9:23 utc | 72

I fail to understand why they bother to remain members of the so-called Arab League

Posted by: Mina | Nov 19 2017 9:46 utc | 73

Posted by: Lozion | Nov 19, 2017 2:43:29 AM | 72

Anti-Muslim Brotherhood. As I understand the - failed - Obama strategy as stated in his Cairo speech, US support for the - educated, "moderate" - Muslim Brotherhood - was meant to counter "Salafist" extremism and give the US a positive image in the ME plus a partner they can deal with without embarassing US democratic constituencies. A kind of US soft power diversity approach. The US had analyzed that their "partners" in the ME were aged dictators and monarchs who would not survive the demographic change. Whilst Iran has a religious constitution with checks and balances capable to adapt to change.

It was not just Egypt military and Mubarak who hated that policy, it was Israel and Saudi, too, who hated it and undermined it. For Israel it would have meant cooperation with Hamas. And Saudi monarchy was threatened.

So these players supported "extreme" movements, the ones that would never endanger their partnership with the US.

Obama placed his strategy on Qatar, that has hardly any population to cater for and Turkey where Erdogan had achieved rule of a religious aligned party by democracy.

You bet that US financing of "moderate" Syrian Muslim brotherhood forces was easily outspent by Saudi spending for "extremists". You also bet that the people designing and leading "ISIS" for occupying the space needed to split the Middle East had no religion at all.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 9:48 utc | 74

add to 75
It is also sadly funny to watch the young "future" Saudi monarch attempt a "Western" governance model with absolute power.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 9:52 utc | 76

Saudi guy sticking to Hariri wherever he speaks
reminds me a reception recently where a Saudi guy with strong Wahhabi inclinations was sticking to the so-called Yemeni ambassador. How can these people watch their face in the mirror?

Posted by: Mina | Nov 19 2017 9:52 utc | 77

What about foreign investments in KSA? plunging? They'll make it again a UK-only place?

Posted by: Mina | Nov 19 2017 9:54 utc | 78


FT: Financial Investors check out

“Half my Rolodex is in the Ritz right now. And they want me to invest there now? No way,” said one senior investor. “The wall of money that was going to deploy into the kingdom is falling apart.” ...

But foreign investors have been stunned by the speed and scope of Prince Mohammed’s campaign. It has raised concerns about due process in the kingdom at a time when executives were studying proposals to invest in some of the heir-apparent’s grandiose projects, not least a $500bn city in the desert.

“One day we are sleeping at the Ritz-Carlton, excited about a new era,” said one regional investor. “The next day they have turned the hotel into a prison — what sort of message does this send us? We some need stability.”

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 11:00 utc | 79

Posted by: Heros | Nov 18, 2017 2:37:35 AM | 22
Posted by: Quentin | Nov 18, 2017 4:59:06 AM | 27
Posted by: b | Nov 18, 2017 7:44:35 AM | 42

Highly back to the turk....

Posted by: notlurking | Nov 19 2017 11:28 utc | 80

somebody | Nov 19, 2017 6:00:40 AM | 80
Erdogan has the same problem these days. But he controls the Turkish media. The problem then can be discussed in the public only using extreme indirect speech. In addition he lets his people invent fairy tales to cover it leading to official papers that analysts in the West start to question. Turkey is more corrupt than it ever has been but this happens below the perception of foreign media. People who dare to report from inside of Turkey, the machine room of this society, are jailed quick. So the only thing to do without danger is to look at the exchange rate of the Turkish Lira each day.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 19 2017 11:57 utc | 81

82 Turkey's economic problem is worse.

Frankly, I never understood what Saudi Arabia needs foreign investment for, they earn enough by oil to invest into their own country. Presumably that is what the Ritz is about - to pressure Saudis to invest into Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi measures make sense - as designed on a consultants' whiteboard.
Real life usually turns out different.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 12:48 utc | 82

somebody @73:

Of course, rational thought is a global conspiracy.
Except your "rational thought" is polluted by your own biases. That's why we know you as a concern troll.

Those worried about a 5th column undermining Western democracies would quickly find that AIPAC/Zionists are as much, if not more, of a concern. So you're pointing fingers at amorphous connections between Western Christians and Eastern Christians is laughable.

The articles that you have linked to are long on allegations and short on substance. This is scare-mongering in the same vein as "Never Trump", "Russian hacking", and Antifa.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 19 2017 15:12 utc | 83

Jackrabbit | Nov 19, 2017 10:12:27 AM | 84

„...would quickly find that AIPAC/Zionists are as much,...“ This is not laughable? The substance I see for this is at least weaker than the „...amorphous connections between Western Christians and Eastern Christians...“.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 19 2017 15:23 utc | 84

somebody 83
Who are the consultants? Some suggest Kushner/Netanyahu.

Yes, let the Saudis use their investments for their own country. But what if they lead the way (as they did dropping oil prices) by selling their billions in US Treasuries?

Posted by: Curtis | Nov 19 2017 15:31 utc | 85


I suppose the same consultants who thought the failed Turkish coup would be a good thing.

Saudi seems to be in the difficult act of switching patrons.

King Salman told Xi that Saudi Arabia was willing to become China’s “important partner” in the Gulf. The kingdom also intended to play a role in China’s “Belt and Road Initiative” and cooperate with Beijing in the energy and financial sectors, he said.


Describing itself as a friend to Saudi Arabia and Iran, China has bolstered its presence in the region by forging closer ties with both countries.

For its part, Saudi Arabia has been seeking to boost oil sales to China, which is the world’s largest crude oil importer.

During King Salman’s first official trip to China in March, the two countries signed deals, including some in the oil sector, worth a combined US$65 billion.

The King deals with China and Russia, the Prince deals with Kushner.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 16:10 utc | 86

Hausmeister @85:

This is not laughable?

AIPAC influence is well known.

The AIPAC-led pro-Israel lobby is probably the strongest, best organized and most effective lobby network in Washington DC.
. . .
Among interest groups that lobby on behalf of a foreign government, none ranks higher in contributions to members of Congress than the pro-Israel lobby.

What's laughable is the McCarthy-esque fear-mongering that smears any opponent with connections to Putin/Russia.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 19 2017 16:54 utc | 87

@ somebody | Nov 19, 2017 11:10:17 AM | 87
From your link:
„Ismail Numan Telci is the Deputy Director of the Middle East Institute and an assistant professor at the Department of International Relations at Sakarya University. He is also a foreign policy researcher for SETA.“
This is not more than a servile adress of loyality to Erdogan. Turkey is full of such people, hoping to get proper careers from doing such things. A heavy burden for the country. By this mechanism a lot of people who can run a job are left out and such cowards are promoted. These muslim brothers and Islamist guys like Erdogan are by no means democrats. They try to use democratic elections for getting a majority for one moment. Then they immediately to make this event irreversible, claiming that this one time statement of the electorate is for ever.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 19 2017 17:01 utc | 88

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 19, 2017 12:01:49 PM | 89

I know, but it is interesting who they blame and who they don't blame.

They try to use democratic elections for getting a majority for one moment. Then they immediately to make this event irreversible, claiming that this one time statement of the electorate is for ever.

Erdogan had to win elections for quite a while now. AKP very likely cheated in the referendum, and got a meager 51 percent, so if Erdogan continues to lose popularity, that's it.

As is, he seems to have problems of keeping his own party in line.

“We studied every vote, every district, every province to see how we lost Istanbul and Ankara,” said an AKP official, who was in charge of data analysis after the referendum. “There were many reasons, but the lack of enthusiasm from grassroots AKP workers was immediately obvious.”

The referendum secured for Mr Erdogan the executive presidency he had long cherished, and meant he could lead the AKP once more as it overturned a provision that heads of state had no political party affiliation.

In the months since, Mr Erdogan has exerted his power, leaving a number of political victims in his wake. Kadir Topbas resigned mayor of Istanbul in September after a relative was detained. Four other elected mayors have resigned or announced plans to step down.

The president had already dismissed dozens of Kurdish mayors in the south-east, and replaced them with handpicked trustees, ensuring municipal largesse remains within his control. Those decisions were made by presidential decrees, which under a state of emergency introduced last year after a failed coup, become law and cannot be contested in court.

Basically Erdogan blames part of his own party - Gülenists - for the coup. I see no way how this could end well for him.

Turkish human rights record has been abysmal since pre Erdogan.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 17:35 utc | 89

Check out Canada/US NATO ambassadors' joint presser at Halifax Int.Security forum:

Posted by: John Gilberts | Nov 19 2017 18:42 utc | 90

Mebe Turkeys and Germ(an)s should both leave NATO so the rest of us can have a clear target at glkbal troublemakers.

Posted by: USS-Leonidas | Nov 19 2017 19:38 utc | 91

@75 somebody. « As I understand the - failed - Obama strategy as stated in his Cairo speech, US support for the - educated, "moderate" - Muslim Brotherhood - was meant to counter "Salafist" extremism ».

That is incorrect and should be: The - failed - Obama strategy as stated in his Cairo speech, US support for the - educated, "moderate" - Muslim Brotherhood - was meant to counter "Salafist" extremism ONLY insofar as it prevented the revolutionnary, educated, secular elements of civil society (a la El Baradei) from being in power.


Posted by: Lozion | Nov 19 2017 23:09 utc | 92

Posted by: Lozion | Nov 19, 2017 6:09:21 PM | 93

Was that realistic?

I would say his position was as untenable as the position of the Syrian secular opposition.

This here is el Baradei in 2015

“Egypt has a very angry, polarised society. The Islamists will not dissolve into thin air. It is a big mistake to push the Muslim Brotherhood underground,” ElBaradei said. “One doesn’t need to be Einstein to understand this….those who want moderation must welcome the Islamists. Pushing them underground will only reap violence and extremism. This is one of the major lessons to be learned from the Arab Spring.”

Posted by: somebody | Nov 19 2017 23:58 utc | 93

add to 94
Obama's speech was preposterous of course. Just envision Khamenei addressing "Christians" in a speech from Christ Church. Or the Saudi King if you prefer.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 20 2017 0:06 utc | 94

thanks b... i really can't understand the use of ataturk for nato target practice, other then a desire to really piss off turkey and it's people.. that would be like using a pic of the queen for target practice for all the commonwealth countries.. it defies logic and is a major faux pas, or intentional and really bad.. taker yer pic...

@virgile... it is interesting what you say about the iran-turkish dude...i was told by a fellow living in turkey a few years ago about this guy and it being a big deal / problem for erdogan... you and him are on the same track..

@mina.. what is up with that french doofus macron? is he hoping for some contract with saudi arabia and this is how he is going to get it? clearly harari is no longer a free man... there is no getting around that.. saudi arabia is good at meddling and blaming others for their own wickedness.. it gets really tiring and predictable... i can see how the usa-uk-israel can put the clown prince to good use.. i guess macron has to play catch up here.. what a doofus he is..

Posted by: james | Nov 20 2017 0:22 utc | 95

@94 I refered to the earlier period during which secular movements, « a la » but not exclusively Baradei were jostling to succede to Moubarak but were prevented for the more pliable Morsi. Lets agree that the revolution was hijacked, shall we?

Posted by: Lozion | Nov 20 2017 4:42 utc | 96

I like that the US is being excluded from these talks

Turkey, Iran, Russia strive for Syria political settlement

Turkey, Iran and Russia have strived for political settlement in Syria ahead of the next round of talks between Syria's government and the opposition held in Geneva on Nov. 28.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif met in Turkey's southern province of Antalya on Sunday for preparatory talks of trilateral summit.
Russian President Vladimir Putin will host his Turkish and Iranian counterparts, Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Hassan Rouhani, on Nov. 22 in the Black Sea resort of Sochi for discussions on Syria as they spearheaded a ceasefire initiative in the war-torn country through Astana process.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 20 2017 5:41 utc | 97

The Zionist lobby in the U.S. has long argued to kick Turkey out of NATO.

Shaw @ 1: It will Seek it's Ottoman Glory with the "Stans" of Central Asia.

[BLINK] Another Anatolian gift Horse gambit???

Posted by: rjj | Nov 20 2017 12:59 utc | 98

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