Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 01, 2017

On Catalonia's Referendum

Some people in Catalonia, a rich and culturally distinct area in north-east of Spain, want to secede from the larger country. According to polls (pdf) less than half of the people in the area support the move. The local government prepared for a referendum and called for a local vote.

Polling stations were set up for today. But Spanish laws do not allow for such polls or a separation. Catalonia, like other Spanish regions, already has a good degree of autonomy. If Catalonia were to secede the Basque areas in the north would likely follow. Spain would fall apart. Under Spanish law the referendum is illegal. The central government sent police to prevent the procedure. Street melees ensued.

A lot of mistakes have been made by the central government. It was stubborn in negotiations. It reacted too late to - at least partially - reasonable demands. Its insensitivity only incited resistance to it. But it is also responsible for the country as a whole. The behavior of local government is not much better. It is just as conservative, in its own way, as the government in Madrid.

Catalonia has a GDP per capita of some $33,580/year. For Spain as a whole the GDP per capita is $26,643/year. Many factors account for the difference. Catalonia has an advantages in climate, in the vicinity of the French border, the high attractiveness for tourists with its capital Barcelona and its beaches. It has a well developed industry. But the "rest of Spain" is also, by far, its biggest market.

A richer part of the country does not want to subsidize the poorer ones. But it still wants to profit from them.

In general the splitting off of sub-states from the bigger, established nations weakens both. It is easier for outside forces to manipulated smaller states than larger ones. While the motives in this or that case are understandable, they are also, in my view, shortsighted.

During the Spanish civil war in the 1930s Catalonia and Basque areas were the last Republican strongholds against the winning right-wing Nationalists. That history lives on in today's conflict. No one should wish to repeat it.

Posted by b on October 1, 2017 at 10:16 UTC | Permalink

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Regarding news on the Syrian front...southfront has good updates...

SAA advancing to Mayadin on west bank of Euphrates...

Reports that Russia installed another S400 battery at Masyaf...also previous reports of the new S350 in same area...

Good sat imagery showing the big Russian radars and launchers...

Significant here is the topography of the area...Masyaf town itself is at 500 meters mean sea level...[1,600 ft]

However, it would be almost certain that those radars and launchers would be placed on surrounding ridgetops on the "An Nusayriyah Mountains...which rise to about5,000 ft...

This is very significant in terms of air defense especially of the routes into Syria through the ridge valleys in Lebanon and northern's going to be very tough to sneak in this way...

Still waiting for more cruise missile strikes on the east bank...and hopefully some paratroop drops behind lines...

But it looks like SAA plan may be to move south and possibly cross again in the area of the huge north Omar field...

The SDF are clearly in league with ISIS and have grabbed some fields [Tabyeh, Isba, Jafra]on the north side of the Khabur river , which flows into the Euphrates just south of Deir Ezzor...

The SDF are approaching the Khabur from the north, but it is unclear how they hope to cross those ISIS groups south of Khabur may not be so inclined to partner with SDF...

Can only speculate at this point...but the drive towards the Iraqi border is key for SAA...

Posted by: flankerbandit | Oct 1 2017 22:54 utc | 101

@el cid, 10
In the future, we will have neither nation states nor city-states, just fiefs.

Posted by: William Rood | Oct 1 2017 23:03 utc | 102


Wanna fly?

"Musk Wants to Build a Rocket That Will Get You Anywhere on Earth in an Hour"

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Oct 1 2017 23:05 utc | 103

Debs @100
"That is foolish Catalonia would stay part of the EU"
Nope, sorry. Spain is the country who's a member of the Union, Catalonia isn't. As was made clear both with Catalonia and Scotland, they're out of the EU if they want to become independant. That's actually what should frighten the Flemish independantist movement as well. And if UK might possibly have been quite lenient with the secessionist province, it would be less the case with Spain - and obviously even less with Flanders/Belgium. Tough negotiations ahead to let them come back in the Union.

Lea @ 3
Cuba had to become a vassal of the USSR to survive. Switzerland has always been a pawn of global capitalism, and is in most cases the obedient poodle of the EU, lapping up their new regulations as they come; and the few times when the people vote against EU wishes, the political elite finds a convenient way to make the votes useless and acts as if nothing ever happened.
So, sadly, no, B is totally correct. Realpolitik it is in these matters, as much as it pains me, and your power is directly linked to your size - surface and population - and military and economic firepowers. Smaller countries can try to play major powers against each other, but when their bickering stops, there's always the risk that one of the bigger powers decides to just slap them into submission once and for all.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 1 2017 23:52 utc | 104

This is all very worrying.

The Soros types/NWO/Cabal/Globalist Deep State/Illuminati/33rdOrder Free Masons - whatever their secret societies and Spectre like psychopathic organisation- shall be able to enforce more totalitarian domination out of civil unrest/civil war/nationalist distraction.

Adds to all the Gladio false flags.

Keep the plebs fighting each other - so they don't look up at the high level corruption and filthy rich robbery of everyone- 3rd World debt enslavement, corporate privatisation of all stock markets, raping of environment, war profiteering and regime change illegal wars to support the petrodollar- $US reserve currency EU-Yen fiat money out of nuffin system that's now bringing IMF style austerity debt enslavement looting of the population to Greece, Italy, Spain etc.

Create and fan the left and right, liberals and conservatives, BLM and KKK, cosmopolitans and nationalists- and have them fight.
All the while the elite monsters sadistically pocket their vast rental incomes and "enjoy" the show.

Wake up people/sheeple!

Posted by: Anoncommentator | Oct 1 2017 23:56 utc | 105


Elon Musk...?

Yeah Right...big noises, small results...

When he first decided to get into the space business...having amassed his fortune with scam outfit paypal...he went to Russia...

Even the American professionals there were embarrassed by his cluelessness...the Russians brushed him off...

His money has bought good engineering talent, but big breakthroughs require a guiding genius...Musk is not that...

Posted by: flankerbandit | Oct 2 2017 0:15 utc | 106

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 1, 2017 7:52:03 PM | 104
"As was made clear both with Catalonia and Scotland, they're out of the EU if they want to become independant (sic)"
Of course that is the stated position of the EU who since brexit got up, are desperate to respond to directives from the unwieldy central governments they despise, but once Catalonia separates from its overlords, they will be let back into the EU. The peoples party won't run spain forever just as the tories won't run england so this creation of Scotland Catalonia and Basque country by those who seek to be removed from colonial pricks needs to be considered over a longer term than next week. The opposition parties in Spain and UK are philosophically much more disposed towards the independence movements and will seek to renew ties.
As I have tried to communicate in my posts on this thread, ultimately the large unwieldy and unrepresentative sovereign (interesting word sovereign as it is taken nowadays to mean an independent entity but its roots lie in the concept of hereditary dictatorship I.E. royalty; that changed as will these exploiting mega states) states will disappear to be replaced by a european union which provides an economic entity without the dictatorial interference both it and the euroimperial sovereign entities.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 2 2017 0:28 utc | 107

Today's incidents constitute a very sad moment for most people in Spain and Catalonia. As a sad Spaniard who has devoted some time and attention to critically observe this phenomenon, let me add to this debate some facts from today's incidents in Catalonia I feel are relevant but are still missing in this thread:

1) The force display of Spanish police today has been somehow strange. Although they behaved quite brutally almost everywhere they intervened, actually police did not show up or intervened in most of the polling places in Catalonia. And the more aggressive operations were conducted at the first hours after the polling places opened, becoming progressively less offensive as the closing time approached. Many people could vote without problems -delays were however frequent because the census had to be checked via internet and internet access suffered many disruptions-, although the general ambient was obviously tense and ugly.

2) However this last, the actual turnout may be relatively small, mainly because many people who would have voted NO to independence in a real referendum simply stayed at home or did not even try to vote -as today's referendum lacked almost every single guarantee, from control of census (there are photos of individuals voting more than once at different polling stations) to impartial observers, not to say there was not a pro-NO campaign. In fact, the referendum organizers (linked to the Catalonia's government who pushes for independence) stated this saturday that a 20% turnout (1 million of almost 5.5 million voters) would actually be a success.

IMHO both the Spanish and Catalonian (similarly right-winded) governments got what they looked for: the Spanish one can now sell in the rest of Spain that it did what was necessary to preserve the unity of the country -in fact this is historically a main electoral asset of the Popular Party; on the other hand, the Catalonian government can now profit from the photo of the violence of the Spanish police to simply forget the poor conditions of the referendum it organized and claim the legitimacy of its cause. Likely (in some months or a year), after cooling down some more dangerous identitary games, both governments will finally agree to a negotiated solution, that basically will leave everything as it already was -some more money for you, some support for me at Parliament- but, in the process, corruption and austerity reforms will vanish from the voters memories due to the identitary fervor of each side. And finally, both governments will probably be re-elected in the next national and regional elections as great men who fought for their respective countries no matter the consequences.

Besides the people who were hurt today by the police brutality and those that will get frustrated in either side as independence, or "victory" against Catalonia, are rendered "impossible", the real losers of this weird game, in which nothing stands for what it really is, will be the Spanish and Catalonian left-side parties that tries to bring in some change from the current crisis-austerity-corruption cycle. Unfortunately, instead of denouncing the dangerous games of both the Catalonian and Spanish right-wing parties, most of these left-wing movements have fallen in the trap and have introduced (and divided) themselves in one way or the other into the identitary game through back-doors as the "right to decide", "autodetermination", "unity of the country", etc.

As sad as all this is, I have to recognize that people have been masterfully fooled once more in this rerun of the (too familiar in Spanish history) right-wing, identitary guided divide-and-conquer strategy.

Posted by: T | Oct 2 2017 0:53 utc | 108

When Spain banked with the Genoese, England banked with Venice. Seeking to disrupt Spanish power 'Venetians' helped organize an Inquisition to disrupt and eventually destroy Spanish power by depriving that country of it'most talented citizens.

Similar projects were undertaken during the French Revolution, including the guilloting of Europe's greatest scientific minds, organized by agents of the Euro Germanic, Dutch and British 'Venetian' oligarchy. The process was later repeated in Russia by Bolsheviks and across Europe including especially Germany by guess who...

Score 100 points if you said British 'Venetians.'

In every subsequent major war since tje Inquisition, when money power has sensed a threat to it's dominance, or even a whiff of potential competition, it has organized pogroms of the best and brightest people, allowing those with talent or wads of cash to settle down in London whilst lesser talent is shipped to the colonies.

This strategy has recently been employed in Syria and before that in Russia during the 1990's to particular effect. This is why Putin continues to encourage the return of Russian Jewery to the Motherland -- because Russia understands perfectly the tactics of Perfidious Albion, it's oligarchy and sayanim agents like Debisisdead whose every word is perfectly calculated to hide the truth of this game.

Those few Jews who remain in their native lands are then inculcated into the Cult of Zionism by stories of how domestic goyim once turned on them and are therefore perfectly suited to becoming collaborators with the puppet masters residing to this day in the City of London.

Neoconservatives, for example, control the EU and United States on behalf of the aforementioned 'Venetians,' so it's not so much about race or religion but as ever a story of class.

Posted by: C I eh? | Oct 2 2017 1:12 utc | 109

Look what happened when Muslin Brotherhood won independence.. Sis killed them
look what happened when Turkey's military revolted.. Erdogodan killed them
When Yemen tossed out its Saudi Puppet leader, Saudi started killing them all.
The Brit exit can't complete its exit, b\c\e EU wants to punish Britain.
Everywhere <=nations states are using force to keep the parts assembled.
Loyalty to a nation state is under challenge, seams to me loyalty should be to human independence, human rights and highest quality everyone's human life. The rumble is just now starting but IMO since the nations states decided to rule by propaganda, use of force, divide and conquer, economic corruption, crooked banks, corrupted controlled Internet, secret government, in-just justice, shackling consumers with debt, gating the pathway to an education and health care, and slowing everybody down by imposing a license for each activity, the long predicted human war against the nation state system may have begun?
Nation states have taken to kill everyone who resists; the nation states have been spying on their citizens, putting citizens in jail and whatever else we don't yet know.. the nation states have never been loyal to their citizens. The nations states have proven they c\n or w\n allow competent, honest leadership. Always the nation states favor monopoly power. crooks or genocidist or something worse to lead.

Posted by: fudmier | Oct 2 2017 2:09 utc | 110

b, that's absolute bollocks, you pretentious nob. Stop play acting that you have all the answers to every question. You don't. Pretending that you do is bloody sad. Deserves zero respect.

Posted by: bellendia | Oct 2 2017 2:11 utc | 111

@108 T

Thank you. This story has been impossible to choose sides. Now your report makes it clear why this is so. It's just more identity politics, played by both sides, reinforcing the divide and strengthening the rule. Neither side is right or wrong. Each side has a point. Neither side has been able to make that point, or to advance its principles forward. And the incumbent leaders, all being corrupt, are the true obstacle to any evolution here.

Let us hope that as you suggest, over time, the passions will cool down and the discussion will resume.


The passion of this divisiveness has been mirrored in this thread also, with a lot of personal attack and a lot of declaration of right and wrong - relative things expressed in absolute terms. Fruitless, like the Catalonian gambit.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 2 2017 3:03 utc | 112

Re: flankerbandit | Oct 1, 2017 6:54:47 PM | 101
Thank you

Posted by: Perimtr | Oct 2 2017 3:33 utc | 113


No disrespect, but the Europe you describe is long dead and has been subordinated under the NATO command structure. Besides, the EU is a dictatorship lead by the four main unelected presidents who conspire with the US to meet the goals of globalism.

Globalism serves to control resources, trade routes and movement of labor to where it is needed. These controls increase efficiency for the owners of capital who use NATO, media, banks and NGO organizations to suppress opposition. To optimize profits these owners have chosen to destroy internal economies and convert the nation states into plantations where the workers (serfs) can be controlled. The global elite gets an economic cut in all aspects of globalism leading to ever increasing concentration of wealth among the “Master of the Universe”. See also Michael Hudson’s works on the FIRE economic that leads to the serfs going in debt to the extent that they are indentured servants.

The globalists are in an economic war with the BRICS countries who generally employ balanced trade of real goods to seal alliances in the third world. For the West the OBOR economic integration proposed by China and Russia was a severe threat to their ideology. To stop continued integration the West created a coup in Ukraine to serve as a firewall against this economic enemy. Unfortunately, the sanctions have failed while causing economic harm to Western Europe.

Meanwhile the West incubated the terrorists in North Africa the Middle East and Eurasia in order to control resource extraction rates and transportation routes. Through this lens the Western backed wars in Chechnia, Dagastan, Ingushta, and South Ossetia were part of the Caspian oil control strategy. The Yugoslav wars also served to de-Finlandize Yugoslavia so that the globalists can control the trade routes.

The West is not facing blowback from this globalist created world chaos “if we cannot control it no one will”. The refugees from these wars are now flooding into the EU and North America and the hypocritical populations who allowed their governments to create this chaos now find themselves the recipients of this globalist spawn. Meanwhile the globalist elite are planning bunkers in such places as New Zealand in hopes of surviving the upcoming civil wars.

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 2 2017 3:36 utc | 114

fudmier @110--

Thanks for providing your POV; I find it intriguing, although not every nation-state rules as you describe. We are all in the midst of a Paradigm Change, where the chaos now reigning was induced by the one nation craving Full Spectrum Dominance, although it could be argued the chaos began with the steam engine and harnessing of fossil fuels. You may have read some of my previous comments where I promote the idea that a Hybrid World War 3 has already begun and what we witnessed is part of that. Isn't the primary identity the Self; thus, identity politics ought to promote individual independence such that any one individual can become his/her own nation-state hypothetically--and why not? Wouldn't that be the primacy of equality? Isn't it time for humans to evolve beyond the Hobbesan/Lockean relationship between governed and governors and the purpose of the state--which both Hobbes and Locke saw as an impediment on human freedom?

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 2 2017 4:05 utc | 115

Spain has lost in the arena world opinion but will likely become even more violent. A couple of articles that add to the discussion:

Most polling stations stayed open despite over 844 people injured by the police violence and 90% of the 40% of eligible voters who made it to the polls voted for a independent Catalan state. A general strike is planned for Tuesday to support a break from Spain.

The Guardia Civil “police using truncheons indiscriminately on young and old alike, attacking firefighters, old ladies, journalists, and anyone who got in their way.”
Spain appears to be prepared to inflict more violence and has yet to deploy the thousands of national police that are currently on ships.

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 2 2017 5:27 utc | 116

It turns out the the Spanish police violence was confined to about 20 polling stations per the map in the linked article. Imagine the tens of thousands injured if the full force of Spain was used to shut down the vote!

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 2 2017 5:54 utc | 117

The Americans created the EU - because it was too difficult to control and bribe the elected leadership of a multiplicity of countries. So much easier with an unelected "Commission"

"The European Union Was Always an American-Led Project, and Now Washington Is in Panic Mode"

As for the economical aspect, Madrid is where the money goes to feed the cancer that is Spanish national politics. Madrid, like Paris and Rome, is a gangrenous parasite on the nation.

Posted by: Alfred | Oct 2 2017 6:06 utc | 118

Small states, own currencies, laws, borders and tariffs aren't the solution. We tried this in Germany till 1870. You get lots of rulers, nice palaces and parks in the countryside and no industry.

The Catalonian issue (and the Kurdish and Ukrainian one) is an issue created by politicians, not between people.

Europe needs the right mix of regional autonomy and economic policy. The North need to balance their interests with the South.
With BREXIT this might happen as the North lost the majority of the vote.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 2 2017 9:39 utc | 119

EU wont even condemn Spain's human rights violence, what a pathetic bunch of people who obviously dont give a penny about human rights.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 2 2017 12:53 utc | 120

Pepe Escobar sees the EU being ultimately responsible for the violence as many here have suggested,

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 2 2017 15:22 utc | 121

Fighting for "independence" to then become a vassal of the EU is absurd and illogical. The Catalan separatist movement has money and racism at its core.

The Catalan claim that they are a unique people is idiotic and racist. They are mutts who are composed of varying proportions of the numerous groups that inhabited Spain including Visigoths, Romans, Greeks, Berbers Arabs, Jews, celts, etc. I'm amazed how many left leaning people are supporting such utterly racist garbage. The Catalan leadership push this racist regionalism for their own agenda, not paying taxes mostly, and the Catalans believe it.

The Spanish government should have negotiated a vote and instead revealed Catalonian "pride" for what it is...racism, another "special people" who believe their propaganda.

Posted by: Alaric | Oct 2 2017 17:17 utc | 122

Too bad this thread died with the Vegas shooter as there's now this excellent observation made by Craig Murray about the attempts by the Propaganda System to frame the raw news coming from Catalonia and how social media defeats it,

Some will certainly disagree, but the news about Catalonia outranks the latest mass shooting within the Outlaw US Empire.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 2 2017 22:51 utc | 123

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 1, 2017 11:36:39 PM | 114

My take is rather different since as the neolibs frequently claim perception is reality, quietly accepting that the 'old europe' is down the gurgler and nothing can be done to change that only serves to give the pricks what they want.
A little more than 3 years ago anyone who advanced to notion that a genuine socialist could take over the english labour party and would increase its membership to make it the largest political movement in europe would be larfed at and rebuked with "sure he may be able to corral all the old boomer types but wait until there's an election, without media support and with the inevitable disinformation war that would happen - he's got no show".
Get right now we see the greedies panicking to the point where they even try to restrain their greedy careerism lest there be a general election and Mr Corbyn wins by a landslide.

The greedies' project is still well shy of completion and it can, most likely will be, turned around because what is happening now is what always happens - greed couldn't wait and decided to milk now while the cows were mooing, but lack of self discipline is putting them right outta contention.
Yep things haven't gotten so bad that an armed insurrection will happen and likely won't get that bad, there will be a horrible 'negotiated settlement' which doesn't accomplish as much as everyone needs, but I have no doubt that the instinct for self-survival will cause the EU to modify the way it does business and that subsequent spanish administrations will realise that being bound to Catalonia through the EU is the best outcome, because the alternative, conflict over a silly 'point of principle' is murderous, vile and economically insupportable.

If Nato does imagine it controls europe ,it is in for a major shock because amerikan control via Nato has always been burdened by a huge dichotomy - that is to have unbounded euro support for Nato means that a big chunk of europe has to be economically successful. That was fine when both amerikan and western european economies were expanding, but now both are shrinking and euro & amerikan corporations fight over the same crumbs.
Plus an economically weakened europe doesn't serve the interests of the elite. In a tussle between the military and corporations, I'll take the corporations every time. Yep the military will try to engage with capital by privatising pieces of itself but that simply won't be enough to compensate for the loss of trillions of diverse 'investments'.

Nato as we currently know it is headed for the oblivion - sure it will remain in name in some form so as to try to avert complete panic, but as the cold war leaves the collective consciousness; crazy beatups targeted to revive fear of all things Russian just become points of humour in most europeans' minds.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 3 2017 0:52 utc | 124

I would just like to point out (in case that nobody else has done so) that this referendum was not even legal under the laws of Catalonia. It required 90 votes in the Catalan parliament, but only got 72, but they went ahead anyway.

Posted by: The Ostrich died for nothing | Oct 3 2017 5:16 utc | 125

…amerikan posters whose slow indoctrination against a united europe is from amerika's hypocrisy in enjoying the advantages of a simple market whilst fearing the huge economic and political power a truly united europe will eventuate in, support Catalans because … they feel more secure when europe is weakened. - Debs is dead.

We saw the same thing with Yugoslavia etc.

Today: Amazing - a pic of one bloodied person in Las Vegas and it’s “Crisis Actors, False Flag!” and another and its “Fascist Spanish Police.” To clear up one aspect: the ‘separatists’ are an alliance between part of the ‘right’ - who want fiscal independence and let’s say a ‘more friendly’ biz enviro and more power which I personally suspect of being mafia-like (see present scandals in the province) and part of the ‘left’ - the non-communist and not anti-capitalist identity-crazed part, who has grasped that there is only one platform to gain privileges (they aren’t gay etc.) An unholy alliance which makes for augmenting fanaticism as there is no place else to go, these two branches disagree sub rosa (e.g. about evictions, shareholder dividends, schooling, etc.)

On the other hand euros who like united europe in principle but rightly resent the neoliberal monolith the EU has morphed into, oppose the Catalan seccession because they are concerned about further EU destabilisation.

Yes, sure; NOT the type of break-away they want to see.

That is foolish Catalonia would stay part of the EU and any reformed EU must decentralise…

The EU has more or less stated NIX to automatic Cata. joining. Contrary for ex. for a possible N. Ireland after Brexit, as N. Ir. would be joining a country that is part of the EU, the Republic. The EU cannot function without the intermediary of Nation States. In any case for a join the vote has to be unanimous and one can make a long list of obstructionists. (> also clueless joe)

Catalonia would find itself very severely punished, maybe even embargoed, impoverished, etc. It would present an example that simply can’t be tolerated. The EU has held off on delineating consequences so as not inflame and let Rajoy handle it (bad option imho) what they fear the most is a civil war but they have no clue what to do. The EU is in great difficulties and AWOL, incompetent: Brexit, strife with Poland Hungary others, the revelatory cancer of Greece, etc. etc.

I did see DiD at 107 but this is getting too long.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 3 2017 13:54 utc | 126

Of course I don't like the way spanish police crushed peaceful voters last sunday. The Rajoy regime is corrupt and inept. But I haven't read here a single comment about catalan racism and discrimination. And it's real.

Posted by: Guy | Oct 5 2017 2:50 utc | 127

My take on independence for Catalonia @

Posted by: greydogg | Oct 9 2017 11:10 utc | 128

Partisanship, nationalism, empty slogans and flags are tools that corrupt governments use to divide us and to manipulate the public into supporting issues that will only benefit the ‘ruling class’. If you want to change the world, the only real side you can choose in the fight against this horrible system, is the Peoples’ side.

Posted by: greydogg | Oct 9 2017 11:45 utc | 129

Just more fallout from 2008/09 banking system failure. Nothing to see here.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 29 2017 10:44 utc | 130

My take on independence for Catalonia...
Posted by: greydogg | Oct 9, 2017 7:10:43 AM | 128

Yep. Nice summary of the catatonic groupthink driving Catalonian independence. Xymphora's October 30 post proposes the most likely explanation for the idiocy (...but the fanatical Zionism of Catalonia’s leaders is a matter of concern").

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 30 2017 16:19 utc | 131

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