Bringing over from the last topic (about the Intercept) two themes that were off-topic there.
The first is for Jackrabbit re Sanders
@40 (in the last thread) Jackrabbit
Your Addendum I absolutely agree with. Makes perfect sense. Worth repeating:
“Our discussion from the last thread is relevant here. Hillary’s attack on [Sanders, in her book] allows Sanders to recover some of the prestige that he lost by supporting Hillary. Sanders can now help the Democratic establishment (of which Sanders is a part) to keep control by throwing his support behind a candidate that is acceptable to the Democratic Party.”

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 10 2017 16:10 utc | 4

Latest from Yemen is that the Houthis were planning to arrest Saleh. RT has an article about Yemen today. A friend of mine in Sanaa says the situation is really hard.
https://www.rt.com/news/402755-war-disease-famine-yemen-crisis/
Another issue, may they all rot in hell: Sakashvili, who has been deprived of his ukrainian citizenship last july, blocked in a train at the poland-ukraine border, denied entry. He is wanted in georgia too.

Posted by: Mina | Sep 10 2017 16:12 utc | 6

Grieved 7
Be interesting to see if anything in this report
Wael Al Hussaini‏ @WaelHussaini 36m36 minutes ago
 More
Replying to @WaelHussaini
(4) the target was hit few KMs off #Sidon shore, sources are confirming that the F-15 was destroyed (the S-200 launcher after engagement)
https://twitter.com/WaelHussaini/status/906906644252065794

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 10 2017 16:25 utc | 8

Concerning shortened URLs:
nmb wrote:
< a href="http://bit.ly/2wGETdF" rel="nofollow">Firsthand details on how the US had undermined the nuclear deal with North Korea< /a>
I put a space after each “<" to disable their tag functionality. This is very nice in the sense that does not bust the width of the frame for comments, and it is informative. Some people object, basically, abbreviated URL does not give idea what it really is. And we all know about malicious spoofs, webpages that are "allegedly legit" and tell you to download the current version of this or that from the supplied link leading to the contamination of your computer, or just annoyingly freezing your browser or even computer. Then you do a hard reboot, browser (there should be a special hell for browser developers) automatically restores windows and promptly crashes again, but after few hard reboots things are back to normal -- hopefully. People with hard experiences of that form and those who do not want to get such experiences have a preference for links that one can understand. But this is not the best way to do it: "nmb's tiny url post directs to: https: //failedevolution.blogspot.co.uk/ 2017/09/firsthand-details-on-how-us-had.html I've seen previous comments requesting nmb to desist, and nmb's response that this is up to the admin of the site." Again, I put spaces to disable the link. The best way is to enclose the longish link like that "nmb's tiny url post directs to < a href="https: //failedevolution.blogspot.co.uk/ 2017/09/firsthand-details-on-how-us-had.html>this site< /a>
Here it was harmless, but occasionally very long descriptive links mess the display of comments. On the bottom of the web browser page the link is displayed when you hover the cursor over the undelined text formatted by < a ...> text < /a> tags. And if the link is to long to read that way, one can click on “View” and then on “Developer” and then on “Page Source” and read the link. So not using bit.ly or a similar service is a proper netiquette.
On top of that, why involve some company in your comments? There is no legitimate motivation that I can see.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 10 2017 17:02 utc | 10

New Yorker has a very informative article on the recent history of US relations with North Korea which abruptly went south after the Clinton administration (see failed revolution blog above) and continued south as US actions in the Middle East convinced North Korea that US diplomacy was unreliable (see Putin’s exceptionalism).
In recent talks, when Americans have asked whether any combination of economic and diplomatic benefits, or security guarantees, could induce Pyongyang to give up nuclear weapons, the answer has been no. North Koreans invariably mention the former Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi. In 2003, when Qaddafi agreed to surrender his nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, Bush promised others who might do the same that they would have an “open path to better relations with the United States.” Eight years later, the U.S. and NATO helped to overthrow Qaddafi, who was captured, humiliated, and killed by rebels. At the time, North Korea said that Qaddafi’s fall was “a grave lesson” that persuading other nations to give up weapons was “an invasion tactic.”
http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/risk-nuclear-war-north-korea

Posted by: Les | Sep 10 2017 17:27 utc | 12

@Grieved | Sep 10, 2017 12:10:34 PM | 4
Well said, EXCELLENT that sob Sanders part and parcel of the freaking DEMOCRAT party. Never again fool by another fake progressive. Never and never again!
I still remember Dennis Kuncich, sold his souls on single-payers onboard that freaking Obomo.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/kucinich-in-obamas-crosshairs.html
Dennis Kuncich, sold his soul on single-payers healthcare onboard Obama.. (above)….. can you trust Sanders? If I’m force at gunpoint to vote for any democrat and Thump…. I’ll vote for Trump this time around. In 2016, did not vote for Hillary and just couldn’t bring myself to vote for thump

Posted by: OJS | Sep 10 2017 17:29 utc | 14

*bit.ly* or even HTML links with *bit.ly* targets cannot get into my browser because this is (outgoing) blocked by the “Block Site” add-on.
Sometimes I have to use the “Stylish” add-on with –> < Manage styles > to get to the settings.
I also use Void/Refracta (etc.) systemd-free Linux.

Posted by: blues | Sep 10 2017 17:51 utc | 16

I have been demanding the elimination of of automated vote casting and counting since 2004.
I have also opposed “IRV”, “approval voting”, and all the other snake oil produced by the fake “election methods” industry. Until we get (“strategic hedge”) simple score voting, we will be trapped by the spoiler effect and forced to choose between two nearly identical candidates.

Posted by: blues | Sep 10 2017 18:08 utc | 18

“Dennis Kuncich, sold his soul on single-payers healthcare onboard Obama.. ”
Of course not. He was only being strategic.
“Progressives” are the ones who sold their souls by abandoning Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney as far as I am concerned.

Posted by: blues | Sep 10 2017 18:14 utc | 20

@14 OJS
I should repeat that the original comment was Jackrabbit’s. He had the insight that I quoted in italics. He and I had been conversing – maybe arguing – a little bit about Hillary and Sanders, and what he finally wrote in that quote seemed to ring so true, and encapsulate the strategy so well, that I wanted to agree with him publicly and also share the insight again.
I hadn’t put it together that way but it makes perfect sense.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 10 2017 18:33 utc | 22

In other news: Sarah Abed has been kicked off Facebook.

Sarah Abed‏ @sarahabed84 37 minutes ago
It was only a matter of time, right? Speak the #truth & get slammed. Was not given a reason why my #fb acct of 10 yrs was disabled #censored

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 10 2017 18:42 utc | 24

Po@5 rcentros
No. The process of the Syrian government and Russia has been to eliminate fronts, not create more.

Posted by: Cresty | Sep 10 2017 19:11 utc | 26

@27 piotr.. yes, and they can continue to lie and do all sorts of other things too… people need to stop using the medium fb..
as b pointed out in a thread a couple of days ago – Facebook Blames Russia To Deflect From Fraudulent Ad-Sales.. more bs from bs corporations..

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2017 20:19 utc | 28

Excellent analytic article explaining why Putin said “There will be no new Korean War,” https://sputniknews.com/politics/201709101057270571-putin-korea-conflict-prospects-analysis/
This is a translated portion of a longer essay written in Russian by Wasserman for RIA Novosti, https://ria.ru/analytics/20170907/1501967677.html
Excerpt:
“‘So far as I understand it, both Koreas remember the genocides that were arranged for them perfectly well, and do not have the slightest desire to allow anyone to repeat them,’ Wasserman wrote. Therefore, he added, ‘I am quite certain that among all the participants of the conflict in the Korean peninsula, only the US is capable of behaving inadequately and aggressively.'”

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2017 20:52 utc | 30

@27 Piotr
Of course. Fb has every right to deny service based on whatever criteria they deem appropriate. It is our job to spread the word to undermine the bootlicking of this neoliberal tool.
In my state, Oregon, there was a huge to-do regarding bakers being forced to serve for a same-sex marriage. They disagreed and faced the wrath of not only sjw Portland, but also the state AG. Regardless of what side you are on here, doesn’t it make sense that the couple looking for baked goods for their wedding should have just found another bakery and instead publicly shamed the offending bakery (on fb and twitter)? Instead, the state got involved, the gay couple got a huge payout fo their “agonizing ordeal” and this divisive and meddlesome action has balkanized activist groups even more, fomenting anger and distrust, and further distracting the public from the misdeeds of the empire with identity politics.
Kind of a digression, but what I meant with this was growing the awareness of thought-monopolies and how to shame them.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2017 20:56 utc | 32

NemisisCalling @32–
Another Oregonian! I’m in Yachats. Agree that the “thought-monopolies” need to be exposed for what they are. As the Empire begins to die overseas, its insidiousness ramps up within the homeland.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2017 21:12 utc | 34

from the Sputnik link– why Putin said “There will be no new Korean War”
“The Korean War caused over 3 million civilian casualties, the vast majority of them in the north.”
I’ve been around for a while, and I remember somebody who was in Korea describing how the US bombed Korean towns and cities.
The bombers came in three waves. The first wave dropped high explosive bombs, to blow the (mostly wooden) buildings apart. The second wave dropped incendiary bombs, to set the broken buildings ablaze. Then came the third bomber wave with fragmentation bombs to kill and injure any survivors and first responders.
It was mostly in the north, but also in the south, and naturally all Koreans are very aware that the US Air Force would have no qualms about a re-enactment. But now DPRK is not defenseless, as it was then, so the game might look the same but the rules are different.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2017 21:47 utc | 36

Hey Karlof, small world, I live in Yachats Oregon too.

Posted by: Jason | Sep 11 2017 0:12 utc | 38

>>>> J Swift | Sep 10, 2017 12:48:15 PM | 9

Just curious if anyone here has heard similar reports, or otherwise knows if Ziad (aside from being an amusing cheerleader) is on the up and up.

Both Popular Mechanics and The Daily Mirror (UK), among others, are reporting the rumour. But the Russians do have a 9000kg General Purpose Bomb (FAB-9000) that they could have used from a Tu-22M.
To use either Putin must have been pretty pissed off.
Perhaps a few seismic monitoring stations in the area have detected it but we’ll have to wait for such confirmation.

Posted by: Ghostship | Sep 11 2017 1:31 utc | 40

Sounds you should all catch up for an MoA Oregon reunion. Very isolated areas some of you live in.

Posted by: Julian | Sep 11 2017 1:43 utc | 42

A brief comment on the termination of comments on the blog Naked Capitalism. The owner, known as Yves, apparently was pushed to the limit moderating a crowd that seemed to be well behaved and interesting. Don’t know how that goes, private blog, so it goes. As a reader this gate closing removes a lot of value from the site becoming a link aggregator with some original content.

Posted by: Duck1 | Sep 11 2017 2:05 utc | 44

@ Duck1 about termination of comments at “Almost” Naked Capitalism
I was run out of NC for railing like I do here about private finance and the need to rid our society of it and usury. I haven’t been back and have found other sources for the interest I found in her aggregation.
She ran out a contributor on labor statistics that I thought was excellent for having opinions that didn’t agree with hers.
After a bit I suspect it becomes a bit tedious to defend the TINA position on the tools the global elite use to control Western nations and threaten the rest……at a comment level.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 11 2017 2:38 utc | 46

SDF unstopped speeding toward Dier Ez Zor only 15Km away. My gut feeling SDF is the main stumbling block to Syrian unity.
My gut feeling Putin changing its stands and allow Syria “free-for-all”?
https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2017/10-september-syria-today-sdf-forces-captured-the-deirezzor
http://syriancivilwarmap.com/

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 2:51 utc | 48

@blues | Sep 10, 2017 2:14:36 PM | 20
Thanks, still remember vividly we had many friendly debates back in 2015 leading to Nov 8, 2016 before we voted. Let say we mutually disagrees. To each his own.. I will never vote for any democrats under any circumstances. Amen!

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 3:00 utc | 50

@Grieved | Sep 10, 2017 2:33:24 PM | 22
Sorrie if I misread your posts. No offences intended. I still hate democrats with passions after loosing everything back in 2008 housing meltdown – Kuncich, Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, bitch Hillary,… just to name a few bastards are worst than the Repug.

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 3:18 utc | 52

@Karlof, Jason 38
Hey Karlof, small world, I live in Yachats Oregon too.
Greeting from the freaking blue State of CA. My kid moved to Oregon last week to “look see” if Oregon any betters. Me too thinking of moving up there. My other kid moved to Finland. During the early 70’s while living in LA – traveled all over Washington and Oregon including South Dakota and loved it! BUT…. properties too expensive NOW. What’s your views?

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 3:49 utc | 54

Oregon has something that southern California doesn’t have, water. The creeks actually have water in them! It sure beats drinking water from unknown sources out of disgusting plastic bottles.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 11 2017 3:59 utc | 56

@Don Bacon | Sep 10, 2017 11:38:10 PM | 53
I believe that Turkey has plans for SDF and Kurdish unity. –Destroy them.
What plans Erdogan have in mind, care to share?
No way! Regime change continue. Can you trust Erdogan? Get real the endless was continue….
Millions more will dies and Amerika military industrial complex (killer complex) including EU, Brit, Israel continue to rack hundred of billions, NOT Millions.
We continue to votes for the lesser evils… who are the lesser evils now, do you know?

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 4:08 utc | 58

Yachats is on the coast. One has to choose between coast and hills/mountains. I prefer the latter, because most people prefer the (dismal) coast. Get a feel. Go east from Eugene then south from Blue River to a soak at Terwilliger Hot Stream near Cougar reservoir. Heaven! Camp at French Pete CG. Site #13. You can’t live there, but nearby is good.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 11 2017 4:10 utc | 60

We dun have water problems, my County underground waters, Yosemite and Sierra mountains provided more water than we needs. Our reservoirs (2) provide water to Southern CA and even Nestles get (almost) free underground water and makes millions export to EU and everywhere…
Lets say I’m looking for a cheap livable house, nothing fancy for my final years. Even a blue state like Oregon is OK – away from prejudices and raciest elements. Like a 1-2 bd. BTW I’m a woodworker not by trades but hobby. I’m a retired engineer, now in Northern CA.

Posted by: OJS | Sep 11 2017 4:35 utc | 62

And coming in on the left flank we have
BBC propaganda about Kurds

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 11 2017 5:06 utc | 64

Don Bacon, I love the hills and mountains too, live about 7 miles inland up the Yachats River. The weather is closer to what one finds in the Willamette Valley then right on the coast. My tomatoes, winter squash, corn and hemp all do great. Terwillager Hot Springs and the surrounding volcanic Cascades are well worth the trip.

Posted by: Jason | Sep 11 2017 5:24 utc | 66

@OJS 54. Housing prices have gone up a lot over the last decade, but are still generally more affordable then WA or CA. Finding good work isn’t easy, but if one is retired that isn’t an issue. Oregon is certainly a blue state, but I think identity politics gets dialed back a bit and there is generally a little more geopolitical awareness compared to other regions, although like most places in America, most people are painfully ignorant about the rest of the world. In any event, I live a hermits life and avoid most human contact, and coastal Oregon is great for that.

Posted by: Jason | Sep 11 2017 5:37 utc | 68

Duck1 @44
This is not the first time that NakedCapitalism has turned off comments. I think its important to note WHY comments have been turned off.
Yves (Susan Weber) turned them off during NC’s coverage of the Greek-Troika negotiations. Although she correctly predicted that Tsipras would cave in to Troika demands, her coverage seemed to join MSM in ganging up on Syriza/Greece. The NC site was deluged with criticism. For example, at one point (weeks before the referendum in which the Greek people overwhelmingly said NO! to the Troika) Yves said that the Greeks never should have resisted the Troika.
Aside: The bigger story, I thought, was that the intimidation of the left so as to deny the Greeks any sympathy/support.
The current shut-down of comments appears to be(*) due to Yves insistence that the Civil War was due to slavery (something which was discussed at MoA also). Yet, that “truism” is debatable. Northern manufacturers made a great deal of money from trading with the slave states and wanted that to continue. Lincoln’s election meant that the Northern manufacturers had the upper hand and could reverse a tariff policy that was favorable to the South.(**)
In fact, the South planned on setting up their own manufacturing to capture more of the profits. But they needed favorable tariffs to continue so that they could raise the capital to do so.
Furthermore, if the war was really about Slavery then why didn’t Lincoln issue the Emancipation Proclamation on the first day of the war? It was issued 21 months (!) after hostilities broke out. Instead he talked time and time again about “saving the Union”. It seems that Lincoln purposely left open the possibility of a ‘compromise’ that would allow slavery to continue. Such a ‘compromise’ would essentially force the South to accept a subservient position – eventually weakening their economy’s to the point that slavery became unprofitable.” But that weakening could take many years and the end result would still be:

– a much stronger North
– freed slaves living in apartheid states (essentially the state of affairs that actually occurred from 1865 – 1965).

Susan’s position seems to cater to her preferred audience. The war was about slavery as much as he GWOT is about “freedoms” (as per GW Bush) – which is to say, “yes but …”. Northern and Southern plutocrats couldn’t agree on how to divide the spoils. Both wanted the exploitation to continue – and it DID continue – long after the 1880’s.
NC has also made other blunders that the readership was more forgiving about:

>> Mary Jo White
Susan took a guardedly optimistic position on the nomination of Mary Jo White for SEC Chair despite deep skepticism by progressives who were already disillusioned by Obama. MJW turned out to be as bad or worse than past SEC Chairs.
>> Progressive Change and the Democratic Party
NC has steadfastly maintained the position that it is better to work within the Democratic Party than to start over. They supported Sanders (though officially remaining neutral) despite criticism that Sanders was a ‘sheepdog’ that never tried to form and lead a Movement (though he could easily have done so).
Progressives that recognize that the Democratic Party is a tool of the establishment, see the “change from within” effort as foolhardy.
>> Black Lives Matter
Those who warned that the BLM sloan invited a backlash were told that they were denying Black agency. They had a grievance and how they responded should be respected. Identity politics is the bread & butter of the Democratic Party and a more confrontational approach that sharpens distinctions is a boon to the Party.

.
* “appears to be” because I am relying on NC description of why comments were terminated. I have no reason to doubt this description. But many comments were likely ‘moderated’ so that we don’t have the full story.
** Liberal sources try hard to poo-poo the tariff issue. For example, Wikipedia says:

The tariff issue was and is sometimes cited–long after the war–by Lost Cause historians and neo-Confederate apologists. In 1860–61 none of the groups that proposed compromises to head off secession raised the tariff issue.[42] Pamphleteers North and South rarely mentioned the tariff,[43] and when some did, for instance, Matthew Fontaine Maury[44] and John Lothrop Motley,[45] they were generally writing for a foreign audience.

Note the (1)unsourced assertions (“sometimes cited-long after the war by … neo-Confederate apologists”, none of the groups that proposed compromises”); (2)nonsense (Pamphleteers … rarely mentioned the tariff); and (3)hedging (“generally writing for a foreign audience”). Just as today, plutocrats do not want propagandists to publicly discuss their financial interest as a motivating factor for war. But that would be something that is discussed by those more sophisticated or removed.
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Susan talks a lot about the ‘Overton Window’. Her comments in this regard show her to be very sensitive to remaining ‘relevant’ to her liberal, institutional left audience. I suppose there is a place for that – but those who are unaware of Susan’s positioning can be taken aback. IMO her advocacy for financial market changes is much more ‘radical’ than other areas.
Susan also wants NC to pay for itself and I bet she feels that she needs to be ‘relevant’ to attract an audience large enough to pay the bills.
We should not forget that Susan has made important contributions on matters like Private Equity abuses, the 2008 Financial Crisis, Fraudclosure, and other matters.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 11 2017 8:25 utc | 70

48
The power plays behind Russia’s deconfliction in Afrin

“Moscow wants to utilize Turkish assets in the upcoming Idlib operation where Turkey can establish a security belt along the Syrian border, where Ahrar-Sham and similar groups can be hosted to demarcate moderate opposition groups from terrorists,” Akhmetov explained.
“All in all, the presence of the Russian troops in Tell Rifaat may be seen as a buffer against unpredictable and hectic behavior of the Turkish decision-makers,” he concluded. “Russia’s invitation to Turkey to participate in the Idlib operation and granting Ankara the status of a guarantor in the Astana agreements may also serve the same purpose.”

Russia is in Syria for Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 11 2017 8:47 utc | 72

Came across this at Wired;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fKBhvDjuy0
It’s called The Power of Ten; a fascinating 9 minute watch…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Sep 11 2017 9:52 utc | 74

The new drug war?
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/3/12/276823/Business/Economy/Egypt-might-reject-,-tonnes-of-French-wheat-for-po.aspx

Posted by: Mina | Sep 11 2017 12:15 utc | 76

When discussing Syria with “humanitarian interventionists”, the topic of Assad as a mass murderer is always brought up. I ignore it because the United States is clearly violating international law by it’s presence and arming terrorists against a sovereign country.
But after seeing the level of propaganda go off the charts, I’m starting to wonder if there is any truth to it. Are there any reliable sources of the supposed mass atrocities committed by the Syrians?

Posted by: Tobin Paz | Sep 11 2017 13:19 utc | 78

@ OJS #58
re: Turkey will try to destroy any Kurdistan plans
After military shake-up, Erdogan says Turkey to tackle Kurds in Syria . . .U.S. backing for the Kurdish YPG fighters in Syria has infuriated Turkey, which views their growing battlefield strength as a security threat due to a decades-old insurgency by the Kurdish PKK within in its borders.
There have been regular exchanges of rocket and artillery fire in recent weeks between Turkish forces and YPG fighters who control part of Syria’s northwestern border.
Turkey, which has the second largest army in NATO after the United States, reinforced that section of the border at the weekend with artillery and tanks and Erdogan said Turkey was ready to take action.
“We will not leave the separatist organization in peace in both Iraq and Syria,” Erdogan said in a speech on Saturday in the eastern town of Malatya, referring to the YPG in Syria and PKK bases in Iraq. “We know that if we do not drain the swamp, we cannot get rid of flies.”. . .here
Resentment over Sykes-Picot deal still drives Turkey foreign policy . . .Erdogan: ‘We have always opposed Sykes-Picot because Sykes-Picot divided our region and alienated our cities from each other’ . . .ANKARA – Resentment remains over the Sykes-Picot Agreement between Britain and France that carved up the Middle East from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire 100 years ago and continues to be a major factor in Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s foreign policy.
The May 1916 accord was signed 100 years ago on Monday by two British and French diplomats and drafted as defeat began to loom in World War I for Germany and its allies. They sought to create spheres of influence in the Ottoman-ruled Middle East which to a large extent helped define the borders of modern states including Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Israel. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 11 2017 14:20 utc | 80

Syria is an ally of Iran and is in a key position on Israel’s norther border, a connection between Iran/Iraq and Hezbollah, an outfit that defeated Israel in 2006. So naturally Syria “commits mass atrocities” by definition. The US and its allies stage some atrocities as a teaching aid. The US has also shot down a Syrian warplane in Syrian airspace, but that’s okay with the UN (“atrocities” are not) even though the UN was set up to keep one country from attacking another.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 11 2017 14:42 utc | 82

Jackrabbit @70
The belief that the federal government was hostile to slavery and intent on abolishing it–true or not–was the reason given by the South Carolina secession convention for South Carolina’s exit from the Union.
Perhaps the federal government didn’t think it was about slavery–and it certainly wasn’t, at least early on, it was solely about keeping the Union alive–but the South did and if their extemporaneous documents are to be believed, their fear of losing slavery was the main cause of the war.
“Confederate States of America – Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union”
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Posted by: sleepy | Sep 11 2017 15:00 utc | 84

^^”contemporaneous documents”

Posted by: sleepy | Sep 11 2017 15:01 utc | 86

Deep South states like South Carolina seceded over slavery. Lower South states like Virginia refused to secede for that reason. They only seceded after Lincoln called on the states to provide troops to forcibly prevent secession. In the view of the Lower South states, Lincoln’s planned use of force was unconstitutional.

Posted by: lysias | Sep 11 2017 15:27 utc | 88

I don’t want to seem like a promoter, but Oregon does offer a multitude of differing places to live teeming with about as many sub-cultures having their own plusses and minuses. Yachats reminded me a lot of Hawaii, particularly Kauai, where I lived for goodly portions of the 80s and 90s, with its pahoehoe lava benches along the shore and about every shade of green imaginable. My home is in the Fog Zone about 300 meters from the ocean just outside of the Tsunami Inundation Zone, yet I grow a goodly amount of foods for our table. I’ve seen the occasional water spout just offshore as well as the numerous gray whales, seals and sea lions that inhabit our ocean. When circumstances permit, I fish, crab and dig clams, and I could hunt if I had that desire as many do. The wine and craft beer industries are great fun to explore as are the multitude of Farmer’s Markets and U-Pick farms. And the economic/employment picture here is looking very good with closed to Full Employment. The coast shares the drawbacks of most rural regions, but the Valley’s big cities aren’t too far of a drive away. Then there’re the Cascades, the Gorge, the “travel through time” in central Oregon, and the mountains and deserts in the East–all great temptations for closet geologists/rock hounds like me: A diversification of landscapes greater than my native California without all the people–yet. And, IMO, still affordable.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 11 2017 15:49 utc | 90

@karlof1 #90
Thanks for that on Oregon, with a diversification of landscapes for sure. After recently getting stuck in the eclipse traffic southbound, and spending the night in remote but active Burns, we took US395 south through some truly desolate but beautiful landscape. I want to visit the Malheur region some day soon, Catlow Valley, Stevens Mtn, etc. Also Hell’s Cyn to the north. . . .So many places– so little time.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 11 2017 16:20 utc | 92

sleepy @84
Yes, but …
The North didn’t seek to end slavery. They wanted to curtail it (e.g prohibiting slavery in new States) and make it uneconomical (by tariffs that shifted profits to northern manufacturers). The South saw the writing on the wall and exercised rights they believed they had. The war was due to the refusal of the North to recognize the right of Southern states to leave the Union.
The Union refused to recognize that right NOT because they wanted to end slavery but because the Confederacy was potentially a powerful adversary. If it was REALLY about ending slavery Lincoln would’ve issued the emancipation proclamation much sooner.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 11 2017 16:40 utc | 94

@95 tobin… i think you are right about that.. i don’t doubt that bashar assad ruled with a tight fist, but i think butcher is a pretty harsh description.. do we read regularly by the msm or chomsky that israel is a butcher of the palestinian people? the reason i ask is, there is a lot of hardship being put on people for various different reasons – none of it generally in keeping with the concept of freedom and democracy that is always trotted out when discussing what is happening in other countries.. in fact, the usa itself has a long history of hostility and discrimination, in spite of what it likes to proclaim for the present.. this is especially true in its pursuit of wars around the globe… now, if someone was to say – the usa is a warmongering butcher – i would have a much easier time with it.. chomsky is a bit of a one trick pony in some respects.. that is how i see him..

Posted by: james | Sep 11 2017 18:47 utc | 96

Chomsky = Controlled Opposition.
The ‘tribe’ has drawn a line in the sands of Syria and Chomsky-comsky will do his part. Hence his (predictable) hypocrisy.
People call him ‘clever’ but let’s face it, he’s by far more boring than clever.

Posted by: Taxi | Sep 11 2017 19:31 utc | 98

@98 taxi.. i think you have a good read on him and it’s how i read him too – unfortunately.
amazing how many regular posters are in the cascadia part of the world! us dreamers have to stick together, lol…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)

Posted by: james | Sep 11 2017 19:53 utc | 100