Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 3, 2017
The Peanut – North Korea Tests A New Nuke – Continues To Press For Negotiations

Earlier today North Korea published pictures of its leader Kim Jong Un admiring a thermonuclear device or H-bomb. Hours later it tested such a bomb in an underground explosion. The North Korean news agency announced:

Pyongyang, September 3 (KCNA) — Respected Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un guided the work for nuclear weaponization on the spot.

He was greeted by senior officials of the Department of Munitions Industry of the Central Committee of the Workers' Party of Korea (WPK) and scientists of the Nuclear Weapons Institute before being briefed on the details of nuclear weaponization.

He watched an H-bomb to be loaded into new ICBM.

Saying that he felt the pride of indomitably bolstering up the nuclear forces at a great price while seeing the Juche-oriented thermonuclear weapon with super explosive power made by our own efforts and technology, he expressed great satisfaction over the fact that our scientists do anything without fail if the party is determined to do.

The H-bomb, the explosive power of which is adjustable from tens kiloton to hundreds kiloton, is a multi-functional thermonuclear nuke with great destructive power which can be detonated even at high altitudes for super-powerful EMP attack according to strategic goals.


The Peanut – bigger

The Walter Cronkite of North Korean TV, Ri Chun Hee, showed more pictures from the visit (vid) the visit and later announced the nuclear test.

Some analyst nicknamed the new device the Peanut. The bomb type obviously differs from the implosion type Disco Ball of March 2016. The "Junche orientation" component, which presumably guarantees the ideological conformity of the device, seems to be the round white box on the left :-/.

(More seriously: Juche refers to self-sufficiency – i.e. North Korea made the components and built the device by itself.)

A graphic in one of the pictures shows the peanut within the warhead bay of a Hawsong-14 Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile.

An hour after the above release, earth-quake detection monitors in south Asia went off. A seismic event of 6.1 to 6.3 magnitude on the logarithmic momentum magnitude scale was detected in the area of Punggye-ri. Like earlier North Korean nuclear weapon tests in the same area, the event happened exactly on the half hour mark (at 12:00am local time). The magnitude points to a large device with an explosive power between 100 kilotons and 1 megaton TNT equivalent. (All previous North Korean nuclear tests were in the low kiloton range.) Some detection stations found another seismic event of 4.6 magnitude shortly thereafter. If confirmed it was likely caused by a "cave-in" of the sub-terrain test chamber. It will take some time to assess the data and to come to more precise estimates, but the qualitative different size of this test compared to previous ones is undeniable.

Added: A later statement by the North Korean news agency confirmed a successful test of a two-stage thermonuclear device. It claimed that no radiation was released to the atmosphere.

One must now assess that North Korea has the capability to make, launch and deliver staged thermonuclear weapons up to megaton size at ICBM ranges. Most of China, Japan and at least the U.S. west coast are in reach of such a weapon. With this warhead size the somewhat dubious accuracy of North Korean missiles has much less relevance.

Before the U.S. and South Korea started this years invasion maneuver Ulchi on August 22, North Korea had warned that it would test-launch four Hawsong-12 mid range ballistic missiles towards the large U.S. base on Guam if, and only if, the U.S. would continue to use "strategic equipment" around its borders. This referred to B-1B nuclear bombers and aircraft carriers.

The U.S. understood and scaled back the planned maneuver. No "strategic equipment" was used.

On August 28, when the maneuver had ended, North Korea launched a test of a single Hawsong-12 medium range missile into the Pacific. The missile crossed over Japan at a height of 550 kilometer. (It thereby did NOT violate Japanese air-space.) Earlier tests had been flown in unrealistic steep trajectories to avoid such an overflight. This test was likely designed to prove to the U.S. the capability to reach Guam.

On August 31 the U.S. flew another "show of force" with B-1B bombers and F-35 stealth fighter planes over South Korea. The planes trained precision bombing with live bombs at a South Korean training area. These plane types are "strategic equipment" and the training makes only sense in a "preemptive strike on North Korea" scenario.

One can understand today's nuclear test as a response to these continuing U.S. provocations. The U.S. will of course claim that only North Korea is "provoking" here and it itself is only "responding". But such a hen-egg discussion and juvenile tit-for-tat is not only useless but dangerous. History tells us that the U.S. completely devastated North Korea and killed some 20% of its population, not vice versa. So far only North Korea had to fear nuclear destruction. That has now changed into a more balanced situation. A preventive or preemptive war on North Korea is no longer an option.

Today's event should convince even the dumbest of the doubters that North Korea's claimed capabilities are real. It should also demonstrate to the White House that verbal "fire and furry" insults, tit-for-tat shows of force and further economic sanctioning of North Korea and/or China are, as predicted, only worsening the situation.

Phillipe notes in the comments that today is the opening of a BRICS summit in Xiamen in China. Xi Jinping is giving a big speech. He will not like this disruption. China strongly condemned the test but there is little else it could reasonably do.

North Korea has offered several times to negotiate with the U.S. towards a peace agreement. (As the Korea War only ended in a ceasefire the nations are still at war.) It offered to stop all its nuclear and missile testing if the U.S. stops the large scale maneuvers in South Korea. Russia, China and South Korea have long urged the U.S. to pick up on that offer. The U.S. could have done so every day since the offer was first made years ago. Not doing so has only created the current situation and today's events.

One September 9 North Korea will celebrate its Independence Day. Such occasions are often used to demonstrate new capabilities. Today's first KCNA statement included the lines:

[Kim Jong Un] watched an H-bomb to be loaded into new ICBM

[which] can be detonated even at high altitudes for super-powerful EMP attack

A strong nuclear explosion at great height can cause an Electro-Magnetic-Pulse which does not directly kill people on the ground but creates some damage to unprotected electric and electronic equipment. The EMP threat is largely exaggerated but a hobby horse of many fear- and war-mongers in Congress. North Korea surely knows this and the statement thereby touches a sensible point. I find it unlikely that North Korea would go with such an unproven concept. This is mere trolling. But a September 9 ICBM missile test, on a realistic trajectory and with a simulated nuclear load, is definitely a possible next step to up the pressure towards new negotiations.

I for one feel no urge to witness a full Hawsong-14 ICBM test with even a dud megaton nuclear device on board. If the White House feels the same it must NOW stop further provocations and immediately agree to open-ended talks with North Korea.

Comments

The other thing I might add is if there were top be any truth to the contention raised here that Kim may be some sort of dope/dupe – the best course of action for the Chinese would be to institute a coup installing a sane China friendly Korean in Pyongyang before this situation spirals our of hand.
Can they do it? Are they capable?
I don’t know. Even if he isn’t a dupe, it may still be the best course of action for China.

Posted by: Julian | Sep 4 2017 7:44 utc | 101

Re@100
Dear Poster
Please read my post again
I am talking about the IMPACT of his actions
The Impact of Kim’s policy plays right into americas hands
Now argue against this point if you can

Posted by: James lake | Sep 4 2017 9:36 utc | 102

James lake | Sep 4, 2017 5:36:13 AM | 102
I understood what you wrote; I disagree.
The U.S. is most assuredly not gaining advantage from Kim Jong-Un’s behavior.
As I have already stated my opinion (as against yours), that the U.S. is losing advantage quite rapidly; and has cornered itself, into no options, short of a nuclear confrontation.
How bloody stupid is that?
The U.S. is faced with two choices; attack NK and kill millions (no problem for the empire) or; accept NK as a nuclear power. That’s it.
The only, only, question is; what will the Trump administration do?
Contradicting myself; the only genuine option is acceptance of NK as a nuclear power; the alternative is too horrible for even the empire, IMO.
You are obviously no student of history.
In logic, one cannot posit conclusions and work backwards; good luck with that.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Sep 4 2017 9:52 utc | 103

Residents of Deir Ezzor celebrating the SAA SF breakthrough and the imminent release of the siege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzHhsBk6krQ
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DI2-NPIUIAEYV5B.jpg

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 4 2017 11:02 utc | 104

I wish I could go back in time and give this technology to Gaddafi

Posted by: jezabeel | Sep 4 2017 11:17 utc | 105

@jezabeel 105
Ain’t that the truth. The man’s fashion sense was a bit off, but he was a truly brilliant and forward thinking mind. In fact, the only truly serious (and fatal) mistake he made was believing the Western “friends” who were cozying up to him that all he needed to do to become “respectable” on the world stage was to give up his weapons programs, and particularly nuclear ambitions. Because he wanted so badly for his pan-African dreams to be taken seriously, he bought in, without realizing that those very dreams were what had put a target on his back.
Kim is not so concerned with being “respected” by the West, at least not in the “being invited to all the nice parties” kind of way. How could any leader of a country not take the chilling lesson of Gaddafi to heart? Hell, even for the US, the only respect it gets is through fear, so isn’t he just learning from the masters?

Posted by: J Swift | Sep 4 2017 13:28 utc | 106

Posted by: James lake | Sep 4, 2017 5:36:13 AM | 102
The “impact” of his decisions is the Korean nation hearing first hand from an American war criminal that anihiliation of the Koreans is on the table.
Which would be a shame. They clearly are a very intelligent and capable people, to mention nothing of their elegance and physical beauty.
And the rest of the neighborhood also has come to understand that “security” and “peace” is not the hegemon’s first priority. Remaining in control is their only concern. China is probably looking far more attractive as a big brother now.

Posted by: nobody | Sep 4 2017 13:36 utc | 107

@ 81 ben…
The truly dismal thing is that, like so many countries in the world, our government has a life of its own. You can voice your opinion to your elected representatives via email, but all replies are automated. You can call and ask for a conference, but you will never receive anything but a robotic call in return or a form letter via post. However, if you leave a voicemail saying you wish to donate $15,000 dollars, a human staffer will call you back within an hour or so.
These are not lies – these are facts that any American can discover simply by trying to voice their opinion. The elected officials run on money, and do what monied interests tell them to do. Most governments do.
Until the money goes away, they will do as they wish, irrespective of what their people want. One look at the way our congress votes and you have the picture. This is no different from the old Soviet Union – absolutely no difference. Which has to be both amusing and galling to Russia and China.
It isn’t going to be pretty when this house of cards tumbles down. It will be unique in that so many forces have been dividing us for so long that we have difficulty functioning as a country any longer. Balkanization is becoming more probable the longer it takes for us to go broke and the rats to leave the helm, the holds and the deck of USS Amerika.
The false belief by the neocons that they will remain unopposed is what bolsters their drive and appetites for ‘exporting democracy’. Syria wasn’t enough of a defeat, because neocons have no understanding of subtlety. I am just hoping that whatever the incident is that renders them aware of their real status in the world is not one that involves millions of deaths. It may take that, because they cannot even fathom the numbers of troops that NK could loose were they inclined, just as they do not grasp the populations of China and India. They truly have no frame of reference, as they live within an echo chamber of idiocy.

Posted by: Oilman2 | Sep 4 2017 14:57 utc | 108

From The Hague #95
I learned about the Korean separation in secondary school history a very long time ago, but I’ve just done a quick searh and this Why Is the Peninsula Split into North Korea and South Korea? covers it moderately well albeit from a western perspective (full of tosh about Kim il Sung who didn’t take office until after the amerikan puppet Syngman Rhee had been installed and begun his death squad hits on trade unionists etc) :

Just five days before Japan surrendered, US officials Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel were given the task of delineating the US occupation zone in East Asia.
Without consulting any Koreans, they arbitrarily decided to cut Korea roughly in half along the 38th parallel of latitude, ensuring that the capital city of Seoul would be in the American section. Rusk and Bonesteel’s choice was enshrined in General Order No. 1, America’s guidelines for administering Japan in the aftermath of the war.
Japanese forces in northern Korea surrendered to the Soviets, while those in southern Korea surrendered to the Americans. Although South Korean political parties quickly formed and put forward their own candidates and plans for forming a government in Seoul, the US Military Administration feared the leftist tendencies of many of the nominees. The trust administrators from the US and the USSR were supposed to arrange for nation-wide elections to reunify Korea in 1948, but neither side trusted the other. The US wanted the entire peninsula to be democratic and capitalist; the Soviets wanted it all to be communist.
In the end, the US essentially appointed the anti-communist leader Syngman Rhee to rule South Korea. The South declared itself a nation in May of 1948. Rhee was formally installed as the first president in August, and immediately began waging a low-level war against communists and other leftists south of the 38th parallel.

Truman & Stalin agreed to settle it by plebiscite IIRC but when amerika went ahead with the anti leftist purges in the south the USSR was dumbfounded and put Kim Il-sung in to lead the North whereas prior to that leadership had been in abeyance as the division was only meant to be temporary.
That is really the crux of it. At the time of Japan’s surrender the USSR was the only member of the allies with troops on the peninsular and because the Japanese surrender was a surprise (really? It seems to me that only amerika thought that – they musta been believing their own BS again) Japan surrendered immediately after Hiroshima, amerika had no one in Korea, so they asked USSR to have a split at the 38th parallel as a temporary measure until the Koreans could decide what they wanted. The plans for a unified state with a government ended in May 1948 when amerika installed Syngman Rhee whose first move was to declare the peninsular South of the 38th parallel an independent sovereign state and his second was to shoot or round up those who disagreed.
It seems likely that at that time with being at war with Nazis and repairing the mess & blood the axis left behind, the poliburo hadn’t had time to study the history of amerika and its treaties. They were still hoping to stay friends in 1945, I guess.
Somewhere in some dusty state department filing cabinet will be a press release from amerika expressing surprise at Syngman Rhee’s declaration, and horror at the purges. No doubt the press statement is one of a pair of documents, the other being the to do list OSS/CIA gave Syngman Rhee with the declaration & purges marked task #1 and task #2.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 4 2017 15:12 utc | 109

– I DO think that N.-Korea has gotten the H-bomb (if it indeed is a H-bomb) got it from either Russia or China.

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 4 2017 15:19 utc | 110

China has officialy stated they will defend NK if the US attacks. Both China and Russia are backing NK geo-politicaly. This is shaping up to be a major takedown of the US in the Asia Pacific via proxy. The US have to go to war with China if they attack NK, but Kim Jong Un is building missiles and nukes to his hearts content, giving the middle finger to uncle sam. US primacy in the Asia Pacific?
That will be disappearing fast.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 4 2017 15:43 utc | 111

@109 debs.. thanks.
@111 peter au… i tend to agree.. not looking for for the war party and empire here as their bluff is being called…

Posted by: james | Sep 4 2017 16:28 utc | 112

@james lake
re: the suggestion that King Jong Un is in league with America and trying to embarrass China.
It is easy to overthink this if one is inclined to think that the conspiracies of the would-be Hegemon are multi-layered and infinitely complex by design. Complexities emerge (look at the Syrian conflict) but perfectly controlling all of the levers and managing all of the impacts is beyond human capacity at this level. Unless we believe that we all live in a ‘Matrix’ and it is all pre-programmed ‘entertainment,’ one has to accept that the events are real and somewhat (to a greater or lesser degree) as they appear.
Based on appearances it seems to me that the US is getting severely embarrassed and backed into a corner on the world stage by the artificially-induced NK crisis. The US propaganda that KJU is a nut-job is still working at home, but I suspect it has little effect among worldly leaders abroad and no effect whatsoever on any population that has felt the heavy hand of the US military. How Trump/MIC/Neocons (who/whatever one thinks is in charge) respond to being backed into a corner is the question that so-far remains unanswered.
What we are witnessing, and have been witnessing since the Russians intervened in Syria, is a coordinated and so-far brilliant diplomatic and low-grade military campaign to delegitimize and isolate the United States. It still has a long way to go, but China and Russia are stripping the Empire of its false moral authority while checking its advance. This process is undermining the morale of American troops and quietly emboldening dissenters within the Empire to act when the time is right.
Maybe I am too optimistic on the final point, but if things continue along the current path it is just a matter of time.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Sep 4 2017 17:15 utc | 113

James
The alternative for NK might be an attack by the US, there might be war now too but atleast it will be postponed in my understanding.
US are IMO shocked that a state wont accept US demands and now US dont really have a definitive plan to approach NK.

Posted by: Anon | Sep 4 2017 17:36 utc | 114

Eva Bartlett was recently in DPRK: Heartwarming photographs of the beautiful North Korean people, and the country they have built against every pressure the US-led world could bring are coupled with links and excepts to/from excellent historical sources that lay out how we got to this moment. This needs widespread distribution:
https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/photos-from-a-week-in-the-dprk/

Posted by: bc | Sep 4 2017 17:40 utc | 115

Another interesting unveiling is thaad and aegis defence systems. Although flogged to Europe and Asia as defence systems, it seems they are nothing of the sort. The US places no relience on them when it comes to protecting their own country. Thaad may be capable of getting a hit occasionaly on missiles, but its eavesdropping and offensive missile capabilities now appear the main reason they have been placed close to Russia and China (Putin stated this some time ago). NK’s latest round of testing showing capabilities to hit US territories and mainland plus an advanced nuke have occurred since the agreement to instal Thaad was reached between US and SK.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 4 2017 17:48 utc | 116

@114 anon.. i agree – us are shocked and don’t have a new approach to this… i listened to jeffery sachs talk on cbc radio this morning.. he essentially says the usa has been taken over by special interests groups – war party, big pharma, financial industry and etc and the politicians remain subservient to all of them… he was bemoaning the fact the usa doesn’t have much of any democracy anymore… these are my words, not his, but was essentially what he said.
@115 bc.. thanks for the link to eva bartletts site and he pictures and comments on dprk… that was enjoyable to see!
@116 peter au.. i think that is exactly right… all those systems, are more snoop dog systems that the usa under the leadership of google/cia and etc – excel at..

Posted by: james | Sep 4 2017 18:23 utc | 117

– And John Bolton is/was calling for “Regime change” in North Korea on FOX News.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6QY6VfF3X0
Yeah, sure. Bolton thinks that North Korea is close to being ablt to hit any target in the US. And Bolton also thinks that North Korea will give the H-bomb to Iran.

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 4 2017 19:01 utc | 118

Pedophiles and satanists lack one quality essential for survival:
wisdom.
http://trance-formation.com/
TRANCE Formation of America is the first documented autobiography of a victim of government mind control. Cathy O’Brien is a healed and vocal survivor of the Central Intelligence Agency’s MK-Ultra Project Monarch operation. Tracing her path from child pornography and recruitment into the program to serving as a top-level intelligence agent and White House sex slave, TRANCE Formation of America is a definitive eye-witness account of government corruption that implicates some of the most prominent figures in U.S. politics.

Posted by: Heinz | Sep 4 2017 19:06 utc | 119

SecDef Mattis has declared that the United States will launch a “massive military response” to any threats from North Korea. The threat is there, but there has been no such response. It’s just empty rhetoric. Why is that?
Perhaps because Mattis understands that if the US attacks DPRK, then DPRK destroys Seoul (10 million people, 40km S. of DMZ), plus US Camp Humphreys (18,000 Americans, 100km S. of DMZ) and nearby Osan AFB. The North Korean would love to exrcise some payback for their country being destroyed by US bombing sixty-some years ago. And also there would be PRC counter-attacks against US ships and airbases. (China has sworn to defend DPRK just as the US has done with ROK.)

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2017 19:06 utc | 120

The horrible destruction of Iraq and particularly Libya and the high-profile murder of Qadaffi have surely inspired Kim and hastened his nookyular deterrence efforts.
The past sixteen years of blood-soaked idiots Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice & Goldman Sachs and Obomba/Biden/Hillary/Kerry & Goldman Sachs will be hard to top for Trump and all his generals & Goldman Sachs, but they can do it.

Posted by: fast freddy | Sep 4 2017 19:37 utc | 121

@120 ‘the threat is there’ yes but only if NK is attacked. They have threatened to retaliate. Mattis is saying essentially the same thing. If you fire, we fire back (hugely). The stand off continues.

Posted by: dh | Sep 4 2017 19:59 utc | 122

Peter AU
American primacy is over. Failed in, Georgia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Turkey, Syria, Crimea, etc Instead of America it’s Russia that established a no fly zone in Syria.
I think balkanization is a real possibility.

Posted by: @Madderhatter67 | Sep 4 2017 20:00 utc | 123

First, I’m posting off a mobile so my apologies for typos. 2nd, sorry for the long post.
There are a few things that I’ve seen in the reporting and commentary regarding North Korea to which I’d like to add me 2c.
1. NK as lackey of China/Russia
IMO, humble or otherwise, NK has no friends. It finds itself bordered by the 3 strongest military superpowers in the world today. (Ok I know there are other capable powers out there, but I just want to paint broad brush). All of our MSM and commentary assume that NKs focus is US. And 90% probably is (how to put a % on that?) but some of it is certainly also directed at ALL its other neighbors. I cannot recall precisely but several years ago some Chinese historians have “found” evidence that NK mythical founding figure (NOT Kim Il Sung, I think it went back to Goguryeo times but please correct if my recollection is wrong) was Chinese-related. It gave china the historical basis to one day take over NK. NKs nuclear program seems to me to be self-reliance in an extremely competitive neighborhood.
2. NK is a small country. This is not something I’ve ever read anywhere in all the reporting or commentary. I don’t know where people on this blog come from (and it’s the only blog I waste time posting my thoughts on) but there are a couple of things I can tell you about being from a small country. A) you can always be swallowed up; B) you define yourself against others, otherwise how did you retain your separateness; C) you are proud of your country’s achievements. Koreans will do things for themselves. They are not going to ask the Chinese or Russians or god forbid the Japanese to do things for them. You might as well expect the Irish to ask the English to take care of them. Offload the responsibility of de-escaltion to the Chinese? How do you think that will work? NK will play nice with PRC because they’re their poodle? Where did anyone ever get that idea from? Has anyone seen any poodle-like behavior recently? Please share. I’d love to learn of it. This isn’t something that can be outsourced. Nor is it something that can be addressed by bombing. USofA (Nikki Haley) is going to have to sit down with NK. It’s Karma really. USA broke korea’s isolation over a hundred years ago. The historical record shows that that Korea (which died a long time ago) asked America for protection and was given by Americans (Theodore Roosevelt) into Japanese hands. Korea is still looking for protection, north and south of the border.
3. Just how crazy is the NK government? Everybody, and their mother too, repeats ad nauseum how crazy these guys are. There is a very good exchange on this topic by a poster called Zeno on the Saker website. Not sure I can mention him. It’s a piece about the UNdiplomatic behavior of US State dept but Zeno calls out Saker on this and all I can say is about f*#king time.
4. Government support among NK people. Who knows? But anticipating a decapitation strike to miraculously lead to implosion is the sickest joke going. NOBODY BUT NOBODY knows the thoughts of the Koreans that live in the north of their country. All I know is people continued fighting for Hitler up to the last day of the war. Some of them weren’t even German! Japanese soldiers continued fighting for Hirohito until the 1970s. NKs? These were the guys fighting the Japanese when no one else was.
I think it was Bruce Cummings where I read that the Koreans could be considered as the Irish of Asia. Both share many features – small country, big neighbour(s), colonization, and utter devastation. Nobody in 107 caught on to something that I concur with. These guys are smart, very smart. And the memory of devastation of the 1950s is burned really deeply burned into them. They are utterly focused and are in a different league to the neocons. But the question now as we learned from Syria in 2016: is there anyone to talk to? And are they capable of implementing any agreement? So, where does this leave us? As I see it, either everything gradually settles down as a new member joins the nuclear club (which could change the calculus on the peninsula -> how effective will the spring/autumn SK/US military games be if the north doesn’t need to maintain such conventional readiness any longer), or we are all f*#ked! God speed!

Posted by: poster formerly known as oneoffposter | Sep 4 2017 21:29 utc | 124

@dh
The threat exists w/o attack (obviously).
threat: noun: a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2017 21:39 utc | 125

@dh – more on “threat exists” (according to US & friends, and the reason for the UNSC mtg)
“North Korea is a rogue nation which has become a great threat. . . .” — Trump
“Kim Jong-Un’s action cannot be seen as defensive. He wants to be acknowledged as a nuclear power. But being a nuclear power is not about using those terrible weapons to threaten others. Nuclear powers understand their responsibilities. Kim Jong-Un shows no such understanding.
His abusive use of missiles, and his nuclear threats show that he is begging for war. War is never something the United States wants. We don’t want it now. But our country’s patience is not unlimited. We will defend our allies and our territory.
“The idea that some have suggested of a so-called freeze-for-freeze is insulting. When a rogue regime has a nuclear weapon and an ICBM pointed at you, you do not take steps to lower your guard. No one would do that. We certainly won’t.” –Haley
“Pyongyang poses a clear threat to international peace and security and is increasingly and seriously challenging the global nonproliferation regime.” –Ambassador Sebastiano Cardi of Italy

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2017 21:59 utc | 126

Looks like the US effort to kick the can down the road with more sanctions is DOA.
BEIJING – China says President Donald Trump’s threat to cut off trade with countries that deal with North Korea is unacceptable and unfair.
Trump said on Twitter on Sunday the United States is considering halting trade with “any country doing business with North Korea.” His remarks came after North Korea detonated a thermonuclear device in its sixth and most powerful nuclear test.
Geng Shuang, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman, told reporters at a briefing in Beijing on Monday that China regarded as “unacceptable a situation in which on the one hand we work to resolve this issue peacefully but on the other hand our own interests are subject to sanctions and jeopardized.”
This reminds of the long-ago sanctions on Iran and Russia which hurt western Europe (and others) so much. Sanctions hurt not only the appointed enemy but also the countries the enemy trades with, which may be allies or at least not enemies. China will have no part of it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2017 22:11 utc | 127

@125&6 By that definition anybody who possesses a weapon can be considered a threat. Everything the US says about a N.Korean threat can be viewed, by the North Koreans, as a threat from the US against NK. That includes the annual military exercises.
Haley chooses to see NK as ‘begging for war’. They are certainly being provocative but their objective seems to be a scaling down of the exercises. The US of course cannot agree to that as it would be seen as appeasement.

Posted by: dh | Sep 4 2017 22:12 utc | 128

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4, 2017 5:59:00 PM | 126

“The idea that some have suggested of a so-called freeze-for-freeze is insulting. When a rogue regime has a nuclear weapon and an ICBM pointed at you, you do not take steps to lower your guard. No one would do that. We certainly won’t.” –Haley

Well, it is nice to see that Haley fully understands and appreciates the reason why NK behaves the way it does.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 4 2017 22:16 utc | 129

124
International relationships have nothing to do with being friends, and I dout NK is anybodies lacky, but the three – Russia China, NK, do have a shared interest in ending US hegemony.
Kim Jong Un’s grandfather had a good relationship with the soveit Union and China. Russia supplied weapons, China lost huge numbers driving the US out of NK. I doubt Kim forgets that, and I doubt the relationship between the three has Changed over time. Russia and China made a joint statment to the effect they would not see NK economicaly strangled, and China has stated they will defend NK if the US attacks.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 4 2017 22:38 utc | 130

130
Stalin had a good relationship with no one. The assistance the soviets gave Kim Il Sung was greatly exaggerated by American propaganda. Soviets armed NK with WW2 excess pre1948 and Stalin specifically denied them an Air Force.
Mao Zedong described the relationship as lips and teeth and yes it was very close. The Korean armies operated prominently in the Chinese civil war of the 40s by accounts. But that relationship deteriorated with the opening of China by Nixon in the 70s. I don’t know if it was repaired. The timing of certain events would suggest otherwise.
Too much is made (I think) of the relationship NK/China/Russia. Certainly there has been recent dramatic progress byNK in separate technologies, so maybe I’m mistaken. But I also read a piece by an analyst named Lewis (can’t remember full name) who said the spate of failures by NK was due to them jumping steps in the previous routes taken by nuclear powers. I’ll try to find it again. So maybe everything did come together for NK after all.

Posted by: Poster formerly known as oneoffposter | Sep 4 2017 23:07 utc | 131

Foreign Policy article by Jeffrey Lewis
Here is the bit I mangled:
According to a defector account, North Korea tried to skip right toward relatively advanced nuclear weapons that were compact enough to arm ballistic missiles and made use of relatively small amounts of plutonium.
It doesn’t explain the sudden success in ICBM tech but Ukraine source seems most plausible explanation to me.

Posted by: Poster formerly known as oneoffposter | Sep 4 2017 23:17 utc | 132

There’s nobody going to come out of this one a winner. It would truly serve everybody’s best interest to work out some kind of deal.
We can go on and on about how the US has so badly treated its subordinates. What’s new about that? Why keep beating that horse? It’s fucking dead as dead can be. Nobody argues that old shit.
But shouldn’t Kim show a little common sense? If China decides it’s had enough where does that leave the fat little fuck? If push comes to shove there’s no way he’s getting out of it alive. I think the point I’m trying to make is that we have two crazy-ass leaders talking shit when shit means Armageddon. Trump is so desperate to try and salvage some credibility that he’s ready to blow an artery and Kim keeps rattling his cage.
I know that the US perpetrated a very bad beating on the North in the Korean war. I know that there’s no reason for the North to ever trust what they hear from the US. But would you back a venomous snake into a corner and then poke it with a stick? I guess Kim would, judging by what we see.
I don’t know how many hangers-on we have in the Trump camp. Most of those have ceded defeat to the deep state far beyond the Donald’s ability to control. But that isn’t true because the president still has torque that he can use to set a country’s course. Trump simply hasn’t what it takes. He doesn’t have the character or the desire to do what he’s supposed to do.
But in Kim we have a fucking millennial who’s ready to meet every challenge by upping the ante. As much as he’s lauded on this board for standing his ground, he goes far beyond that. He’s flirting with a situation that could easily spin out of control. Then it won’t matter who’s side we’re on. We’re all fucked.

Posted by: peter | Sep 4 2017 23:31 utc | 133

So I guess what it comes down to is how the Donald saves some face. Hell of a thing to lead to Armageddon.
I just can’t see NK denuclearizing. It addresses their dependence on oil that powers their chemical industry that allows the country to feed itself. One of the reasons those light water reactors were part of the 90s deal.
It allows them a credible threat without having to spend 25% GDP on their military and frees more hands for sowing and harvesting, instead of manning positions during the SK military exercises.
Can they trust a deal with Trump? Can they trust China or Russia to defend them against attack perpetually? That is what the international community is asking of them.
I’m trying to understand the NK perspective. UN, China, Russia, US none want a nuclear NK but how do you argue against the above? The US is an unreliable negotiating partner and all the past deals the US reneged upon are coming home to roost.
The real question is, I think, can US find a way to live with nuclear NK? Their rhetoric so far is not promising and I fear they may paint themselves into a corner. After all, if the dying happens over there…. Jesus wept at the stupidity of it.

Posted by: Poster formerly known as oneoffposter | Sep 4 2017 23:54 utc | 134

Just a few thoughts:
1.Trump may be hissing at SK because SK under its new President Moon is not willing to pay for the full blown THAAD system the US managed to sneak into the country just prior to the elections.
2.I also think Kim is his own man and that NK’s tech is home grown. I also think he has won the respect of Russia and China because of it.
3. Will the US back down, yes. We will suddenly bomb some poor yet to be named country declaring we will get back to NK once we have brought “democracy” to Tuvalu or whoever we decide is the latest of Satan’s spawn.

Posted by: frances | Sep 5 2017 0:01 utc | 135

“3. Will the US back down, yes. We will suddenly bomb some poor yet to be named country declaring we will get back to NK once we have brought “democracy” to Tuvalu or whoever we decide is the latest of Satan’s spawn.Posted by: frances | Sep 4, 2017 8:01:02 PM”
Looks like our next US democracy project may be Egypt not Tuvalu….135http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/the-egypt-north-korea-connection/

Posted by: frances | Sep 5 2017 0:32 utc | 136

@121 ff and @135 frances… i agree.. means we are still going to wait and see if another shoe drops…

Posted by: james | Sep 5 2017 0:35 utc | 137

We should note that the Congress has not been involved in this US move toward war. The administration instead has focused on the hated United Nations for support, where Russia and China have a veto.
The UN is not impartial, it is a party to the current armistice in Korea.
Armistice Agreement for the Restoration of the South Korean State (1953)
Agreement between the Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command, on the one hand, and the Supreme Commander of the Korean People’s Army and the Commander of the Chinese People’s volunteers, on the other hand, concerning a military armistice in Korea. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 5 2017 4:16 utc | 138

“North Korea is a rogue nation which has become a great threat. . . .” – Trump
This kind of thing always makes me laugh. I think that nukes are a definite threat to the existence of all life on the Earth, but that the main culprits in the world tragedy unfolding since 1945 have been the two major super-powers. They and they alone possess enough nukes to end the human race and probably destroy all the Biosphere as we know it…. not a rinky dinky nation like north Korea which at the most would have a handful of weapons.
http://www.icanw.org/the-facts/nuclear-arsenals/
Nine countries together possess around 15,000 nuclear weapons. The United States and Russia maintain roughly 1,800 of their nuclear weapons on high-alert status – ready to be launched within minutes of a warning. Most are many times more powerful than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945. A single nuclear warhead, if detonated on a large city, could kill millions of people, with the effects persisting for decades…..
US – 6800 warheads
Russia – 7000 warheads
etc etc
So for Trump or any american president (they ALL have done it) to lecture some small nation about having these weapons is not only hypocrisy (especially since the US never lectures Israel about its 80-? warheads) but very unwise politics if we want to resolve our world’s problems without resort to them, some day…
my opinion is that they should all be abolished. how? I haven’t the faintest idea; which I guess is why I am an idealist

Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 5 2017 7:14 utc | 139

This sentence may well cover it though no tech is 1000% home grown.
2.I also think Kim is his own man and that NK’s tech is home grown. I also think he has won the respect of Russia and China because of it.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 5 2017 7:37 utc | 140

/~~~~~~~~~~
But in Kim we have a fucking millennial who’s ready to meet every challenge by upping the ante. As much as he’s lauded on this board for standing his ground, he goes far beyond that. He’s flirting with a situation that could easily spin out of control. Then it won’t matter who’s side we’re on. We’re all fucked.
\~~~~~~~~~~
“a situation that could easily spin out of control”. Really. I mean no fucking shit? Like a nuclear war? Is that what you mean by “out of control”?
How much stupid can we afford?

Posted by: blues | Sep 5 2017 8:11 utc | 141

My phone died last night so I didn’t get chance to thank Peter for the discussion. I find it good to refine my thoughts with others and you have my thanks for enabling me to do so. I’ve nothing to add. Just have to wait for events to develop now.
Frances 135&136: I agree with your views even though point 3 is a guilty type of hope. What poor society is going to have to pay to offer the distraction to allow this to fade away.
Michael72
You have my vote. Without idealism, we would be a very sorry excuse for a species indeed.

Posted by: Poster formerly known as oneoffposter | Sep 5 2017 8:18 utc | 142

XIAMEN, China (Reuters) – Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that imposing tougher sanctions on North Korea over its nuclear missile programme would be counter-productive and said threats of military action could trigger “a global catastrophe”.
Putin, speaking after a BRICs summit in China, criticised U.S. diplomacy in the crisis and renewed his call for talks, saying Pyongyang would not halt its missile testing programme until it felt secure.
“Russia condemns North Korea’s exercises, we consider that they are a provocation … (But) ramping up military hysteria will lead to nothing good. It could lead to a global catastrophe,” he told reporters.
“There’s no other path apart from a peaceful one.”
“It’s ridiculous to put us on the same (sanctions) list as North Korea and then ask for our help in imposing sanctions on North Korea,” said Putin.
“This is being done by people who mix up Australia with Austria,” he added.
=====
Putin occasionally speaks very clearly.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 5 2017 14:04 utc | 143

I do not know about confusing Australia and Austria, but some confusions happen in USA regularly. Same Reuters of today:
Ohio deputy mistakenly shoots news photographer
8:34am EDT – 00:43
Authorities say a Clark County sheriff’s deputy shot a news photographer after mistaking his camera for a weapon. Linda So reports.
A news photographer out taking pictures of a lightning storm in Ohio was mistakenly shot by a sheriff’s deputy Monday night. Authorities say the shooting happened when the deputy apparently confused the photographer’s camera and tripod for a weapon. The New Carlisle News says their photographer Andrew Grimm was setting up his tripod to take pictures of a traffic stop during the storm when he was shot in the side without warning by the deputy. Grimm underwent surgery and is expected to survive. He says immediately after he was shot, the deputy rushed over to help saying he thought it was a gun. The state’s Bureau of Criminal Investigation is looking into the incident.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 5 2017 14:23 utc | 144

re: “situation that could easily spin out of control”
Of course anything is possible, but we should consider that when it comes to sacrificing American lives (as opposed to others lives) the discussion becomes more rational.
The US (actually SecDef Gates) some years ago decided that there was minimal danger in Korea and it could be an “accompanied tour.” That is, soldiers’ families could live in Korea. Then came a ten billion dollar construction program, largely ROK-funded, which will consolidate many small army bases into a large one at Camp Humphreys, about 100km south of the demilitarized zone (DMZ). There are currently about 18,000 Americans there, about 2/3 civilian including wives, husbands and children of active service personnel.
At Camp Humphreys the Army and Air Force Exchange Service facility includes a 124-seat dining room with a Taco Bell, a Subway and a Starbucks. There’s also a dry cleaner, and an eight-chair barber shop within it’s nearly 24,000 square footprint. Humphreys is becoming one of the most- modern and well-equipped Army installations in the world.
At Camp Humphreys the U.S. military conducts a semiannual evacuation drill known as Focused Passage. The noncombatant evacuation operations, or NEO, are aimed at making sure everybody knows their roles in the event of a noncombatant evacuation, which may be ordered in the event of war, political or civil unrest, or a natural or manmade disaster. From a recent news report: “. Brandy Madrigal, 32, was participating in her third NEO — so she knew exactly what to pack when she got the call to report to the Assembly Point at the main gym at Camp Humphreys on June 5. She ticked off the list — clothes, food for the kids, documents, phone, toiletries — before driving with her two children from their first-floor apartment to the base to be processed.”
Imagine that — thousands of “noncombatants” assembled at one place awaiting air evacuation to Japan. . . .That scenario certainly bumps up against any “situation that could easily spin out of control.” Consider this news: (quute)
Defense Analyst Claims that Camp Humphreys Can Be Destroyed By North Korean Rockets
Really nothing surprising here, North Korea has long been able to target Camp Humphreys with ballistic missiles, rockets just give them another way to attack the base
What is new with the 300mm mobile rocket launcher is its accuracy, its mobility, and ability to rapidly fire multiple projectiles at the target (1 truck x 8 rockets x 6 launchers in a battery=48 rockets impacting…then 18 launchers in a BN =864 rounds on target), and the difficulty of shooting down a rocket vs shooting down a ballistic missile. Probability hitting the a rocket is a lot lower, and then try hitting 864 as they rain down. Warheads vary from HE, ICM to Chemical… Have a nice day.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 5 2017 16:25 utc | 145

@145 If evacuation starts we can consider the situation has become serious.
Apparently it could be a fun experience…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxoiUy54_Pg

Posted by: dh | Sep 5 2017 16:41 utc | 146

@dh
Yes, the US has put itself in a bind by allowing noncombatants contiguous to service troops. It removes the option of an elective war creating a new combat zone, which otherwise the Pentagon would love to do.
A similar situation exists in the Persian Gulf, a potential war zone except for many expensive installations and many US noncombatants, which means that Obama’s frequent “all options are on the table” was BS, especially factoring in a “sitting-duck” aircraft carrier in the Gulf.
Of course countries who have been appointed US enemies (unlike the misinformed American public) know this very well, since their weapons systems are zeroed in on potential fat targets. An occasional targeting laser shot painting of those targets drives the point home to US generals in case they are too stupid to know it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 5 2017 18:50 utc | 147

@147 There was a time when camp followers ran the same risks as the actual combatants. Any survivors were sold as slaves.

Posted by: dh | Sep 5 2017 19:19 utc | 148

Don Bacon @145: Probability hitting the a rocket is a lot lower, and then try hitting 864 as they rain down. Warheads vary from HE, ICM to Chemical
My guess is that the anti-missile systems have limited capacity and rate of fire, so in a Korean scenario they will be overwhelmed with probability approaching 1. And in Yemen we have seen the lethality of good old technology from 1970-ties and 1980-ties like OTR-21 Tochka. The problem with Tochka is that it flies at 5+ Mach, so an antimissile has to be similarly fast or faster, hence rather massive and expensive. More modern missiles make some turns, and my guess is that it is much cheaper to improve missiles than to adequately improve anti-missiles. The bottom line is that during a crisis, either the families can run in a bee line for a hard shelter, or they should stay put, so fewer victims could be killed in one shot.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 5 2017 20:33 utc | 149

@ Piotr Berman
Yes, that’s then problem Israel has with its vaunted Iron Dome anti-missile system. Hez’s thousands of cheap missiles against Iron Dome at $50 million per battery and $40,000 per shot. Rockets are cheaper yet, and artillery at closer ranges.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 5 2017 23:52 utc | 150

U.S. should stop threatening North Korea and negotiate
Experts writing in a March 2017 publication of the U.S. Army War College characterized this long-held policy and others in frank terms. “Insanity has been described as doing the same thing again and again, while expecting a different result each time. This truism aptly characterizes U.S. dealings with North Korea over the last 7 decades.” Yes, they said, 7 decades.
The article also calls on the U.S. to take steps to normalize relations with North Korea and negotiate a peace treaty to replace the 1953 Armistice, again, without demanding the North end its nuclear program. So long as North Korea is constantly threatened by the U.S., its effort to develop a nuclear deterrent is a rational response. Polls show about 60 percent of Americans support direct talks.
https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2017/09/us-should-stop-threatening-north-korea-and-negotiate
The link to the AWC article.
http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/index.cfm/articles/between-business-and-war/2017/03/29

Posted by: Les | Sep 6 2017 3:55 utc | 151

I read Trump has been trumped by Putin. There is a gathering in Vladivostok which runs through to September 7, 2017. We’ll soon know the outcome if the headline is just wishful thinking..
a GlobalResearch.ca reprint from The Duran.
“Trump has been Trumped” by Putin: North Korean Delegation Arrives in Russia, Joined by South Korean President

September 05, 2017
The Eastern Economic Forum is a unique meeting which will be attended by delegations from Russia, China, Japan, Vietnam, Mongolia, South Korea and North Korea.
Hours after the 9th annual BRICS summit wrapped up in Xiaman, China, delegates from East and South East Asia have begun arriving in the Russian city of Vladivostok for the Eastern Economic Forum.
The Forum is an event designed to enhance economic partnerships and cooperation between multiple Asian nations including Russia, China, Japan, Vietnam and the Korean states.
This year’s summit occurs days after North Korea tested what is thought to be a hydrogen-weapon. Russia and China have both condemned the move and support UN sanctions against Pyongyang, but are equally opposed to further crippling unilateral sanctions from Washington.
With many suspecting that North Korea would boycott the event, Russian officials have confirmed otherwise, stating that the North Korean delegation is already in Vladivostok.
South Korean President Moon Jae-in is to arrive shortly along with the South Korean delegation. While the Korean crisis is set to dominate discussions that would otherwise have been reserved for discussing trade and economic matters, it is not yet clear if the North and South Korean delegations will interact at any level.
Many suspect that Russian President Vladimir Putin who hosts the event will attempt to conduct dialogue with the representatives of both Korean states
in order to try and de-escalate regional tensions.
The Eastern Economic Forum officially begins on the 6th of September and runs through the 7th.

Posted by: likklemore | Sep 7 2017 17:27 utc | 152

And then as the “peanut” turns we have this report:

BEIJING, Sept. 7 (Xinhua) — Chinese President Xi Jinping said Thursday that the international community should make a concerted effort to solve the nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula.
During a telephone conversation with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Xi said facts have repeatedly proven that an ultimate settlement of the nuclear issue could only be found through peaceful means, including dialogue and consultation.
Xi stressed that China remains persistent on the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, adamant in preserving the international nuclear non-proliferation regime, and resolute in safeguarding peace and stability in Northeast Asia.
Merkel said Germany supports a peaceful solution to the Korean Peninsula nuclear issue through political means, and favors efforts to bring related parties back to the track of dialogue and negotiation.
She pledged to enhance communication and coordination with the Chinese side in a bid to find a solution as early as possible.
During the phone conversation, Xi also noted that China-Germany cooperation has gone beyond their bilateral relationship, and plays an increasingly important role in maintaining world peace and stability and promoting common development.
Xi said China-Germany relations are currently riding a wave of momentum, adding that China is willing to continue its cooperation with Germany under multilateral frameworks.
Xi also recalled the new consensus reached with Merkel during his state visit to Germany in July on advancing overall China-Germany strategic cooperation and strengthening coordination in international affairs.
Merkel said Xi’s visit to Germany in July was highly successful and significant to the development of Germany-China ties.
Noting the increasingly close political, trade, economic, people-to-people and cultural exchanges, the German chancellor said Germany hopes to maintain communication and coordination with China on major international and regional hot-button issues.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 8 2017 4:56 utc | 153

Julian (98,99): Oh – he went to school in Switzerland. Well clearly he’d have nothing to do with any banking cabal being a pupil in Bern then.
But according to your own paste, that info could be about his late brother who confusingly shares the family name AND half of the given name (plus, to add to the confusion, given name is last in Far East).
Actually, from what I have heard, Koreans (my only contacts are from the South) also find the situation confusing. The family name is not confusing, they once had a presidential election with three main candidates named Kim. Neither are the given names, the distinctions between Jong-chun, Jong-un, Jong-chul and Un-Jong are obvious. But the situation is genuinely bewildering. There is a sharp left-right division in S. Korea that in my opinion dates to the beginning of Christian era, the left having a bastion in the former kingdom Pekche (now, Jeolla), and the right in the former kingdom of Silla (now, Geongsan). They spent few hundred years on wars, and even though Silla have won, they do not like each other even today. The rightist would advocate solidarity with USA and strengthening the defense, and resolute responses etc. but now they seem to lack the traditional resolve. USA is so bombastic and erratic that it this attitude is harder to maintain than usual. The left (or rather liberal) side (since the beginning of the year, in power) would advocate decreasing tensions, finding common ground etc. but North Korea is even more bombastic (if not erratic) than before, which seemed scarcely possible.
Incidentally, the power transition in S. Korea was a bit premature as a right wing president, a daughter of much admired military dictator proved that a carefully selected leader can be very, very, very stupid. And morbidly shy. And emotionally dependent on a female version of Rasputin. So now they can put their trust in their own president who seems have resolve in a constancy of some a kind of noodles (Koreans have plenty of those kinds), or the American president whose antics are just too painful to follow. Like announcing that American fleet takes course on North Korea while that fleet circumnavigated Australia from the south (I hoped that it would take course at Tuvalu, a conquerable archipelago with cheeky government). Anyway, on strictly military terms USA scored a pair of shipwrecks. But what are two shipwrecks if you have more than 500 ships! Then there is a series of “resolute but not helpful” announcements. Then a day after thermonuclear test Trump proposes to cancel trade agreement with South Korea. Perhaps it is a dubious agreement, but is it really, really the best day to concentrate on that issue?
The bottom line is that following the events would allow Koreans to make a ton of jokes, but the situation is not funny, so they are bewildered instead.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 8 2017 7:41 utc | 154

– Robert Parry sees a link between the Ukraine crises and the current North Korea crisis.
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/15/a-ukraine-link-to-north-koreas-missiles/
Parry thinks that perhaps N.-Korea got the (sophisticated ???) rocket engines from the Ukraine. It wouldn’t surprise me at all since the Ukraine are VERY corrupt.

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 8 2017 16:40 utc | 155

peter
China prefers DPRK as their neighbor. Why would China want to replace them for an American puppet state. The US is attempting to encircle China. This is a complex game beyond your understanding.

Posted by: @Madderhatter67 | Sep 8 2017 20:04 utc | 156