Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 16, 2017
Smashing Statues, Seeding Strife

In the aftermath of competing protests in Charlottesville a wave of dismantling of Confederate statues is on the rise. Overnight Baltimore took down four Confederate statues. One of these honored Confederate soldiers and sailors, another one Confederate women. Elsewhere statues were toppled or defiled.

The Charlottesville conflict itself was about the intent to dismantle a statue of General Robert E. Lee, a commander of the Confederate forces during the American Civil War. The activist part of the political right protested against the take down, the activist part of the political left protested against those protests. According to a number of witnesses quoted in the LA Times sub-groups on both sides came prepared for and readily engaged in violence.

In 2003 a U.S. military tank pulled down the statue of Saddam Hussein on Firdos Square in Baghdad. Narrowly shot TV picture made it look as if a group of Iraqis were doing this. But they were mere actors within a U.S. propaganda show. Pulling down the statue demonstrated a lack of respect towards those who had fought under, worked for or somewhat supported Saddam Hussein. It helped to incite the resistance against the U.S. occupation.

The right-wing nutters who, under U.S. direction, forcefully toppled the legitimate government of Ukraine pulled down hundreds of the remaining Lenin statues in the country. Veterans who fought under the Soviets in the second world war took this as a sign of disrespect. Others saw this as an attack on their fond memories of better times and protected them. The forceful erasement of history further split the country:

“It’s not like if you go east they want Lenin but if you go west they want to destroy him,” Mr. Gobert said. “These differences don’t only go through geography, they go through generations, through social criteria and economic criteria, through the urban and the rural.”

Statues standing in cities and places are much more than veneration of one person or group. They are symbols, landmarks and fragments of personal memories:

“One guy said he didn’t really care about Lenin, but the statue was at the center of the village and it was the place he kissed his wife for the first time,” Mr. Gobert said. “When the statue went down it was part of his personal history that went away.”

(People had better sex under socialism. Does not Lenin deserves statues if only for helping that along?)

Robert Lee was a brutal man who fought for racism and slavery. But there are few historic figures without fail. Did not George Washington "own" slaves? Did not Lyndon B. Johnson lie about the Gulf of Tonkin incident and launched an unjust huge war against non-white people under false pretense? At least some people will think of that when they see their statues. Should those also be taken down?

As time passes the meaning of a monument changes. While it may have been erected with a certain ideology or concept in mind, the view on it will change over time:

[The Charlottesville statue] was unveiled by Lee’s great-granddaughter at a ceremony in May 1924. As was the custom on these occasions it was accompanied by a parade and speeches. In the dedication address, Lee was celebrated as a hero, who embodied “the moral greatness of the Old South”, and as a proponent of reconciliation between the two sections. The war itself was remembered as a conflict between “interpretations of our Constitution” and between “ideals of democracy.”

The white racists who came to "protect" the statue in Charlottesville will hardly have done so in the name of reconciliation. Nor will those who had come to violently oppose them. Lee was a racist. Those who came to "defend" the statue were mostly "white supremacy" racists. I am all for protesting against them.

But the issue here is bigger. We must not forget that statues have multiple meanings and messages. Lee was also the man who wrote:

What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world.

That Lee was a racist does not mean that his statue should be taken down. The park in Charlottesville, in which the statue stands, was recently renamed from Lee Park into Emancipation Park. It makes sense to keep the statue there to reflect on the contrast between it and the new park name. 

Old monuments and statues must not (only) be seen as glorifications within their time. They are reminders of history. With a bit of education they can become valuable occasions of reflection.

George Orwell wrote in his book 1984: “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” People do not want to be destroyed. They will fight against attempts to do so. Taking down monuments or statues without a very wide consent will split a society. A large part of the U.S. people voted for Trump. One gets the impression that the current wave of statue take downs is seen as well deserved "punishment" for those who voted wrongly – i.e. not for Hillary Clinton. While many Trump voters will dislike statues of Robert Lee, they will understand that dislike the campaign to take them down even more. 

That may be the intend of some people behind the current quarrel. The radicalization on opposing sides may have a purpose. The Trump camp can use it to cover up its plans to further disenfranchise they people. The fake Clintonian "resistance" needs these cultural disputes to cover for its lack of political resistance to Trump's plans.

Anyone who wants to stoke the fires with this issue should be careful what they wish for.

Comments

Trump supporter falls in line.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Aug 17 2017 2:16 utc | 101

Argh, may the gods forgive me; Trump had a point; Washington, Jefferson, and many others in the founding government were slave holders; that’s a fact.
Are we going to destroy the entire history of the U.S., in the absurd name of political correctness?
All of its history is important; especially the ugliest of times; they must not be forgotten.
There is some thing else going on here; I get the uneasy feeling of being played on this whole issue.
What’s missing is some clear and critical thinking, devoid of Alts, ology’s, and isms.
This thread is one of b’s best, IMO.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 17 2017 2:45 utc | 102

Responding to psychohistorian | Aug 16, 2017 2:17:06 PM | 23 Pitting people against people <=that's what the constitution does; it divides people into the slave drivers[527] and the slaves[340000000] both slave and slave drivers exist to empower and protect a hidden very powerful third group of persons and corporations which we shall call the Pharaohs. (The Pharaohs set the goals that dictate what the slaves divers must get the slaves to produce). What has racism or sex got to do with slavery? Slavery has to do with forcing people to submit their person to abuse or to submit the work product to benefit of others at a price much lower than the others would themselves do the same work or submit to the same abuse. Slavery has nothing to do with racism or sex. Race and sex are attributes of humanity; slavery is a condition of humanity in bondage. Posted by: fudmier |

Posted by: fudmier | Aug 17 2017 3:36 utc | 103

The statue of a Confederate I would like to see is a statue of my great-great-great Union vet grandfather beating General Lee and General Jackson to death with his amputated arm. Put it up in Richmond VA.
If that is too offensive, maybe descendants of slaves would like a similar statue of a former slave beating and crushing Lee, Jackson, Jeff Davis. That way we could show history and the Confederacy could be immortalized.
As the statues are now it is not real history, the statues were put up to show the rest of us white supremacy was back in power in those cities and counties. The current statues are unpatriotic. USA number 1. E Pluribus Unum

Posted by: Billy Yankee | Aug 17 2017 3:46 utc | 104

Thought experiment: Suppose all statues and symbols of the confederacy were magically gone. Right now. Immediately.
How many of the things that really affect the quality of a persons life would change?
Education? Health care? Crime?

Posted by: ian | Aug 17 2017 4:05 utc | 105

I’m contributing to this thread rather reluctantly because I doubt that much of anything let alone anything good can come out of whitefellas talking to other whitefellas about black/brown/yellow fellas.
I’m surely not the first to notice that whilst there was plenty of BLM signs, there simply weren’t many pix of african americans in Charlottesburg over the weekend.
Now we can put that down to african americans honed by survival having an aversion to getting in the face of a big mob of assholes who are openly acknowledging their racism or, that it is important for whitefellas who believe they are not racist to stand up and do a ‘not in my name’ act. After all if I lived in amerika I too would be hesistant about joining in a Black Lives Matter protest – not because I disagree with the BLM point of view but because african american self determination means african american agency – in many instances there is no need for whitefellas to support ‘interpret’ or otherwise obstruct the message.
This subtlety is one too many neo-liberals or even worse blue dog dems, fail to understand. The worst example of that around here and/or the old whiskey bar was the regular abuse that Dr Condoleezza Rice used to cop for being a right wing african american. I hope it seems crazy to everyone now but a white liberal calling Dr Rice a ‘house nigger’ is just as offensive as a white redneck calling the fellow who bags his groceries a ‘fucking jungle bunny’.
Which brings me to the point I wanted to make, that the entire debacle probably was a set up and very likely a set up on both sides of the fence, trying to pin this mess on either Soros or the Ku Klux Klan is just more of the same – all anyone needs to know is that they are being played – trying to work out who is behind it is pointless, like the kid wearing the vest of exploding ball bearings who is gonna die wondering if he is working for da’esh or mossad, there is simply no way of knowing – all the fuss just plays into the enemies’ hands by prolonging the impact of the action.
Voltaire certainly seems to be on the outer in 2017. Although some of the biggest fights of my life and the worst scars and injuries I sustained were got fighting racism, I would never ever advocate restricting arseholes from spouting their nasty irrational racist claptrap.
Not because of Voltaire, even though he has a point but because these transperant efforts to shut the arseholes up never work but they do reinforce persecution complexes while they assist the pricks to get their message out.
Most egregiously the resulting heated debate plays staight into the hands of the prize pricks® who seek to distract everyone while they plunder our hip pockets.
As with the thread about google where I tried to point out that distraction was leading us all away from the attack upon southern workers seeking to organise themselves, I do wonder what precise dodginess between rethugs, dems and corporate amerika is actually occurring while everyone worries about things that have already happened.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Aug 17 2017 4:10 utc | 106


Pitting people against people <=that's what the constitution does; it divides people into the slave drivers[527] and the slaves[340000000] both slave and slave drivers exist to empower and protect a hidden very powerful third group of persons... ... Posted by: fudmier | Aug 16, 2017 11:36:16 PM | 103

I love a good word picture.
On a global scale, Russell Brand (“Revolution!” – 2014) envisages a bus containing the 87 individuals who control more wealth than the 3.5 billion people at the bottom of the Totalitarian Capitalism Pecking Order.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 17 2017 4:16 utc | 107

It would be helpful to know which party (or bi-partisan faction, or agency) is setting the table for civil unrest in the US. A friend of mine who is more knowledgeable of Civil War history than I, reminded me that if you that if you were to scratch beneath the surface of Abraham Lincoln, you would find some of the racist beliefs that were prevalent in that period of history. Abraham Lincoln and Robert E. Lee were two of the best men of that generation. It is a mistake to think simplistically about American history or anyone’s history. There was bigotry in some ranks of the Union Army, and occasions when blacks were badly beaten, when southern plantations were overrun by those forces, because some Union soldiers had racist attitudes as well, and unjustly blamed those slaves, believing them to be the ultimate cause of all the bloodshed.
Robert E. Lee was sought out to be the commanding general of the Union Army; but he had to explain to his fellow countrymen who offered him this command, that it would simply be impossible for him to lead an invading army into his home state of Virginia. There is nothing particularly surprising about this; and it is one of the sad outcomes that is to be expected in a civil war. In the immediate aftermath of the war, Lee spent months dealing with Confederate officers who came to see him, soliciting his help and leadership to carry out some kind of continuing insurgency against Federal forces. Lee dealt with these men patiently, and in all cases advised them to return to their homes, and accept that the United States was one country again.
The present madness that threatens to seize the US is not an inspired one. Who then is setting the table for civil unrest?–that is the question. The partisans tearing down statues have no rational model, or limit; and have no concluding destination at which they would stop. Hysteria and limitless confidence in their own virtue is all they have to guide them now; and if it is left up to them, they won’t be satisfied until the context of their country’s history is a featureless, purified, and barren surface.

Posted by: Copeland | Aug 17 2017 4:44 utc | 108

ian | Aug 17, 2017 12:05:44 AM | 105
Very good question.
IMO, nothing would change.
As I said above; there is something going on we do not see.
And, that’s by intention.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 17 2017 5:02 utc | 109

When I looked in here this morning, I expected that comments would be overrun with trolls and flaming, but returning I find many comments I would like to follow up on, too many to mention by name. You could say I did NAZI that coming!
b, as to your conclusion re: history, I find it quite sound. But I would add that the oligarchs are attempting to reduce the public’s entire understanding and even conception of history to the most simplistic terms possible. The oligarchs (through politicians and the media) do this by reducing symbols to single-term equations, in this case R.E. Lee = racism and the Confederacy = racism. By attacking symbolism and symbolic language, they attack the depth and richness of the public discourse. Stripped of complexity, public discourse reverts to binary choices, Good/Bad, Left/Right, Progressive/Nazi, and never shall the dichotomies meet through the dialectical method.
Consider the position of our (US) Southerners. They are well aware that the CSA needed slaves, that slavery was evil, but to them the history of the South through the US Civil War stands for so much more, both good and bad. We have touched on some of the bad side. On the good side, it stands for chivalry, for manners, for respect, for dignity, for love of the land, for family, for family dinners, for sweet tea and mint juleps, and so on and so forth. When a Southerner speaks of heritage, he or she means all that, all the good and the bad. To a Southerner, the concept of “The South” is a complex symbol. “The Confederate States of America” is a complex symbol. “Robert E. Lee” is a complex symbol. To the so-called Left, right now, “Robert E. Lee” is a simple symbol, and that symbol equates to racism. They are not even speaking the same symbolic language. A Progressive might criticize R.E. Lee, and in his mind he is only criticizing racism, but to a Southerner listening to it, he is criticizing so much more. It’s damned tragic.
I was going to extend this line of thought, but I think I’ll just hit post.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 17 2017 5:55 utc | 110

V. Arnold 109 “there is something going on we do not see.”
There seem to be two lines of thought.
1) All in power are acting in a coordinated manner to deceive everyone.
2)Trump is an outsider and the efforts we see to take him down are genuine. (In saying Trump is an outsider, this not to say he is good or bad, simply an outsider)
Because I don’t believe in in the tale of honour among thieves and psychopaths, I think option two is more likely.
To date, the globalists, neo-cons whatever seem to be using the same methods they have used for regime change everywhere – fomenting trouble and division.
Trump’ moves? He is not a professional politician (any precedent for that in the last 70 years or so?)
My thought is that the US is now at war with itself, a confused population that has been fed a steady diet of propaganda for many years.
Two things that may be happening, is Trump making moves in unconventional ways, and also events overtaking..? Perhaps the globalist/neocons dividing the US to take down Trump never though about if there are any brakes? Because they were always acting against other countries, brakes were not needed. ?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 17 2017 6:03 utc | 111

Peter AU 1 | Aug 17, 2017 2:03:36 AM | 111
Brakes? Possible.
But a recurring thought for this one is that Usians are descending into madness/insanity.
Co-incidently today, I came across this at ZH;
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-16/americans-are-rapidly-descending-madness
It’s by Mike Krieger, of whom, I know nothing, but; it struck a chord in a timely sort of way.
See what you think.
Thanks for the reply.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 17 2017 6:25 utc | 112

The rush to monument removal, especially removal of so-called war hero monuments, is missing one cogent point one may make in this context namely those worshiped or hated monuments are there in the first place because of a lie of American exceptionalism, American supposedly inherent superior morality of goodness of future intentions and occasional unintended collateral evil of the past ripe with gigantic moral relativism i.e. moral discrimination that points out inherent inability of others/strangers/aliens to embrace any sort of goodness.
No, America is not exceptional, far from it, she is the same abhorrent regime as imperial Britain, France, or Russia or imperial and Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia or medieval fiefdoms of MENA except she denies it fashioning herself as beacon of human civilization and peddling supremacy of a phantom of democracy she never even tasted.
America is an Emporium of Illusion and Hypocrisy, and those and many other monuments including Lincoln’s, MLK’s or Statute of Liberty etc., are monuments to that, monuments of Orwellian lies and manipulation that cost millions of lives of ordinary people indoctrinated, divided and loaded with fear and loathing of their brothers and sisters for oligarchs’ profit as one may read in ”The People’s History of the United States” by late H.Zinn.
But the problem is never in monuments, it is in people who cannot accept their ancestors’ and their own capability of evil and do not want to be reminded of that preferring great illusion over ugly reality which they have no shred of control.
America needs to denounce itself, to break with the disgusting, inhumane past as many nations already did many times in last 250 years. America needs a kind of French revolution with thousands of metaphorical (or not) guillotines of absolute repudiation of legacy of political puppets of Anglo-American ruling aristocracy, their shills, courtiers and their hired killers of imperial security apparatus and most of all American oligarchy S&P1000 responsible for civil war and every war before and after and guilty of murder of tens of millions around the world.
There is only one monument for victims of abhorrent US regime (from Indians, blacks, white, Asians etc.,.. to Syrians) that should be erected in the US telling children what monster America was before we the people of all races and creeds finally destroyed oligarchic ruling elite and started to fearlessly self-govern within egalitarian society devoid of extortion, threats, intimidation and violence all those monuments one way or another worship.

Posted by: Kalen | Aug 17 2017 8:35 utc | 113

Kalen | Aug 17, 2017 4:35:58 AM | 113
Nice post, well said.
I especially liked;
“America is an Emporium of Illusion and Hypocrisy…”
Nice turn of phrase.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 17 2017 8:43 utc | 114

A submersion in the atavism on display in Charlottesville will not drive out the nation’s demons, or purify any person’s soul. Regressing to a primitive type is part of the descent into fascism. And a committee of guillotines will never cure the emptiness that is gnawing at this country’s innards. A cult of violence always manages to rationalize its crimes while waving a banner of virtue. Were the police ordered to stand down, until the object of the mayhem was achieved?
Those who delight in the accumulation of political capital, during this tragedy, are precisely the people who should never be trusted again.

Posted by: Copeland | Aug 17 2017 9:35 utc | 115

‘I don’t trust politicians & corporations in this country’ Russell Brand
https://youtu.be/VqsFp0J22Hc

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 17 2017 9:44 utc | 116

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 17, 2017 1:55:39 AM | 110
Yep, Gone with the wind.
You forget that a large part of Southerners were black. Their memories are very different.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 10:01 utc | 117

Kalen says:
America needs to denounce itself
i think the multi-polar world will beat them to it.

Posted by: john | Aug 17 2017 10:17 utc | 118

Charlottesville is about the Soros pseudo-left taking advantage of its media power and a couple hundred sad sack rightist losers in order to assure that _the_ central ‘left-right’ conflict is over old statues. Not the ever more obscene economic inequality and austerity for the bottom 90%.

Posted by: fairleft | Aug 17 2017 10:18 utc | 119

119
No, it is over racism and supremacy. And this IS the basic left-right conflict since the times of fascism. Or since colonialism and the ‘worker aristocracy‘.
Trump’s/Bannon’s economic policies are a fraud. US workers cannot profit from a Trade War with China as it would make consumer goods very expensive and would stop Silicon Valley.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 10:42 utc | 120


Trump’ moves? He is not a professional politician (any precedent for that in the last 70 years or so?)

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 17, 2017 2:03:36 AM | 111

Ronny Raygun?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 17 2017 11:43 utc | 121

Over the last week I have been researching the civil war no not the amerikan one, the english one of two centuries earlier.
This is a war that most people know about but few really know.
Two particularly salient points are that it was stirred up so quickly because printing presses had only recently become widespread across europe and that had triggered a big mob of protestant Vs catholic conflict -that and everyone had their own copy of the bible – they no longer needed a priest/preacher to interpret it – so they drew their own conclusion free of the establishment church hierachy – indeed it was the demand to get rid of church bosses (bishops) which kicked off the conflict. Although the mainstream media was pretty much banned in england in the 1640’s cos everything had to be approved by the archbishop of canterbury who was the censor and he regarded ‘news’ as too likely to be inflammatory there were a lot of underground pamphlets. These were either printed secretly in england or imported from europe, particularly Germany.
Both the puritans (roundheads) and royalists (cavaliers) accused the other of printing fake news as each preached to their own choir.
The other issue that is pertinent is that the King’s nephew Prince Rupert was kicking roundhead arse up and down Britain until Cromwell took control and transformed his force from a bunch of bible bashing god botherers who spent as much time praying for victory as they did sharpening swords and cleaning muskets, into the ‘New Model Army” a dedicated fighting force. Cromwell got most of the money to fund the transformation from Virginia Puritans who wanted to help their ‘brothers and sisters’ in the old country.
In the end just as money kicked off the war (Charles had to recall parliament from a 12 year recess to raise taxes and fund his Bishops’ war and Spanish and Dutch fights, but the parliament went straight into argument with the king) money also determined the conclusion as once the Puritans got enough to equip themselves the end was determined. King Charles could never have won too many opposed him if the puritans hadn’t got the gold they needed together the war would have just gone into abeyance until enough had been saved to kick it off again.
Really it was more a revolution than a civil war but Cromwell and the rest of the squires cum parliamentarians were a lot closer to King Charles point of view than they were to the aims of the proletariat expressed by the levellers and the diggers.
Charlie got his head chopped off because he embarrassed and humiliated Cromwell by playing him for a derp, when he should have had his melon removed for cynically prolonging the conflict causing the unnecessary deaths of tens of thousands of decent humans; but King Charlie kept it going in the hope he could somehow cling to power.
So the most salutary thing I learned from my most recent studies is how little has changed in 400 years which isn’t particularly uplifting.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Aug 17 2017 11:53 utc | 122

122
Yep, taxation by the king sparked the English and the French revolutions.
But the underlying cause was that an informed merchant class had grown who owned the money, not controlled by the aristocracy.
Serious money today is on the internet. A successful internet company needs very little capital to take off. My hope is that this will change politics.
Cambridge Analytica very likely had a lot to do with Trump’s victory. And the stupidity of BREXIT.
This is just the start. It is very similar to the effects of the printing press and the translation of the Bible.
Trump was able to hijack the Republican Party because they have a small bigotted membership, Democrats are not much better.
Should the Democrats manage to get their party back from the elites, or form a majority third party, they can do something like Corbyn. With every new young generation their chances get better.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 12:48 utc | 123

“The radicalization on opposing sides may have a purpose. The Trump camp can use it to cover up its plans to further disenfranchise they people. The fake Clintonian “resistance” needs these cultural disputes to cover for its lack of political resistance to Trump’s plans.”
Well said. Kudos.

Posted by: TG | Aug 17 2017 12:51 utc | 124

The statue of a Confederate I would like to see is a statue of my great-great-great Union vet grandfather beating General Lee and General Jackson to death with his amputated arm. Put it up in Richmond VA.
If that is too offensive, maybe descendants of slaves would like a similar statue of a former slave beating and crushing Lee, Jackson, Jeff Davis. That way we could show history and the Confederacy could be immortalized.
Posted by: Billy Yankee | Aug 16, 2017 11:46:21 PM | 104

Far and away the Best comment on this subject thus far

Posted by: Just Sayin’ | Aug 17 2017 13:06 utc | 125

Lies That Confederate Statues Tell
“James Loewen’s books include Lies Across America: What Our Historic Sites Get Wrong, Lies My Teacher Told Me and Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism. Earlier this year, he spoke at a symposium in Richmond on Confederate monuments and memorials, available on C-SPAN. And a couple of years ago he wrote an article in the Washington Post called “Why do people believe myths about the Confederacy? Because our textbooks and monuments are wrong.” His website is http://sundown.tougaloo.edu We discuss confederate statues.”
http://davidswanson.org/talk-nation-radio-james-loewen-on-the-lies-that-confederate-statues-tell/

Posted by: Robert Beal | Aug 17 2017 13:37 utc | 126

what’s going in Charlottesville right now
reminds me very much of what must have gone on in the Cultural Revolution in China.
i’m sure people in China are seeing this in very much the same way
probably reminds them of their long-forgotten history.
likewise the hypocrisy of the Political Correctness movement in general, since early 1990s
i’m certain every other country must also have its own era of such madness.

Posted by: chris m | Aug 17 2017 13:48 utc | 127

127
I bet all you know of the Cultural Revolution in China is the word “cultural”.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 13:57 utc | 128

127
I bet all you know of the Cultural Revolution in China is the word “cultural”.
Posted by: somebody | Aug 17, 2017 9:57:49 AM | 128

the mere fact that you seem to think that’s a pithy comment you’re making shows that if all he knows is the word cultural, he still seems to have a far better understanding than you, of what Mao was trying to achieve by unleashing the youth of China upon the rest of Chinese society.

Posted by: just Sayin’ | Aug 17 2017 14:27 utc | 129

Charlottesville has knocked MOA off his stool. “Right wing” nutters took down Ukraine? Rightwingers like Obama, Clinton, Victoria Nuland? Sure.
Regarding Charlottesville, assuming the pro statue forces did not initiate violence, then they had every damn right to demonstrate. Dictators want to regulate the speech they don’t like but at last recall we can still speak freely here. Back in 79 the ACLU even defended the Nazi’s right to demonstrate in Skokie, Illinois, home to many holocaust survivors. How far we have fallen.
The modern day Democratic Party has no connection to the freedom and liberty loving Democrats of the past.

Posted by: WJ | Aug 17 2017 14:44 utc | 130

Not that it will make any difference. These are a sample from studies I did many years ago.
——————————————-
http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
Mr. Lincoln’s Speech, Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois,” September 18, 1858
——————————————-
http://douglassarchives.org/linc_a89.htm
“Mr. Jefferson did not mean to say, nor do I, that the power of emancipation is in the Federal Government. He spoke of Virginia; and, as to the power of emancipation, I speak of the slaveholding States only. The Federal Government, however, as we insist, has the power of restraining the extension of the institution — the power to insure that a slave insurrection shall never occur on any American soil which is now free from slavery. ”
Abraham Lincoln, “Cooper Institute Address,” 27 February 1860
——————————————-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_amendment
http://www.geocities.com/ghostamendment
The Corwin amendment
uS House of Representatives, 28 February 1861
uS Senate, Adopted Adopted March 2, 1861
No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.
——————————————-
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp
I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution–which amendment, however, I have not seen–has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.
First Inaugural Address of Abraham Lincoln, Monday, March 4, 1861
——————————————-
http://www.classicallibrary.org/lincoln/greeley.htm
“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.”
Lincoln’s Letter to Horace Greeley, Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862
——————————————-
http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/state-of-the-union/74.html#axzz0wDlQyUEB
(it was difficult to find the text of this speech. I wonder why?)
“Applications have been made to me by many free Americans of African descent to favor their emigration, with a view to such colonization as was contemplated in recent acts of Congress. Other parties, at home and abroad–some from interested motives, others upon patriotic considerations, and still others influenced by philanthropic sentiments–have suggested similar measures, while, on the other hand, several of the Spanish American Republics have protested against the sending of such colonies to their respective territories. Under these circumstances I have declined to move any such colony to any state without first obtaining the consent of its government, with an agreement on its part to receive and protect such emigrants in all the rights of freemen; and I have at the same time offered to the several States situated within the Tropics, or having colonies there, to negotiate with them, subject to the advice and consent of the Senate, to favor the voluntary emigration of persons of that class to their respective territories, upon conditions which shall be equal, just, and humane. Liberia and Hayti are as yet the only countries to which colonists of African descent from here could go with certainty of being received and adopted as citizens; and I regret to say such persons contemplating colonization do not seem so willing to migrate to those countries as to some others, nor so willing as I think their interest demands. I believe, however, opinion among them in this respect is improving, and that ere long there will be an augmented and considerable migration to both these countries from the United States.”
(snip)
“I can not make it better known than it already is that I strongly favor colonization; and yet I wish to say there is an objection urged against free colored persons remaining in the country which is largely imaginary, if not sometimes malicious.”
Abraham Lincoln’, 2nd Annual Message, December 1,1862, Washington, DC
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http://www.mrlincolnandfreedom.org/inside.asp?ID=41&subjectID=3

Contemporary biographer Noah Brooks noted that “when others urged it upon him he almost invariably argued against it; and in this way, as had been his wont when he was in the profession of the law, he found the weakest as well as the strong points of the case under consideration.”2 It is in the light of this mental condition that we must judge the well-known reply made by him on the 13th of September to a deputation from the religious denominations of Chicago requesting him to issue at once a proclamation of universal emancipation.” President Lincoln deflected their arguments for immediate emancipation but admitted he had not “decided against a proclamation of liberty to slaves.”3 Washington journalist James C. Welling argued that was with “festive humor that, on the 13th of September, he parried the arguments of the Chicago clergymen who had come to Washington in order to press for a proclamation of freedom. To their representation that the recent military disasters ‘were tokens of divine displeasure, calling for new and advanced action on the part of the President,’ he shrewdly replied that, if it was probable that God would reveal his will to others on a point so intimately connected with the President’s duty, it might be supposed that he would reveal it directly to the President himself.”4 Mr. Lincoln told the Chicago delegation:

“Now, then, tell me, if you please, what possible result of good would follow the issuing of such a proclamation as you desire? Understand, I raise no objections against it on a legal or constitutional grounds; for, as commander-in-chief of the army and navy, in time of war, I suppose I have a right to take any measure which may best subdue the enemy. Nor do I urge objections of a moral nature, in view of possible consequences of insurrection and massacre at the South. I view the matter as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion.”

——————————————-
http://mrlincolnandfreedom.org/inside.asp?ID=1&subjectID=1

Mr. Lincoln realized that freedom depended upon Union — but he also realized that some supporters of Union opposed the actions he had taken to grant freedom to Southern slaves. He addressed these critics in an open letter to Union supporters meeting in Springfield, Illinois in September 1863.
You dislike the emancipation proclamation; and, perhaps would have it retracted — You say it is unconstitutional — I think differently. I think the constitution invests it’s [sic] commander in chief, with the law of war in time of war — The most that can be said, if so much, is that slaves are property. Is there — has there ever been — any question that by the law of war, property, both of enemies and friends, may be taken when needed? And is it not needed whenever taking it, helps us, or hurts the enemy? Armies, the world over, destroy enemie’s property when they can not use it; and even destroy their own to keep it from the enemy — Civilized beligerents do all in their power to help themselves, or hurt the enemy, except a few things regarded as barbarous or cruel — Among the exceptions are the massacres of vanquished foes, and non combattants, male and female.

——————————————-
http://dig.lib.niu.edu/civilwar/narrative2.html
But Fremont also proved to be capable of rash action. Late in the summer of 1861 he issued a proclamation announcing the emancipation of slaves in Missouri. Lincoln, eager to avoid ruffling the feathers of border state slaveholders, ordered Fremont to withdraw the proclamation. When Fremont demurred, the commander-in-chief officially overruled his subordinate. In early November, the War Department removed Fremont from his command.
——————————————-
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/september/lincoln-slave-order.htm
(www.sonofthesouth.net site has “over 7,000 pages of original Civil War content” and “recently completed posting the complete run of Harper’s Weekly newspapers from the Civil War. These papers give incredible insight into this important period of our history.”)
THE EMANCIPATION QUESTION IN MISSOURI.
The following letter front the President to General Fremont has been published:
” WASHINGTON, D. C., Sept. 11, 1861. “Major-General John C. Fremont:
SIR,—Yours of the 8th, in answer to mine of the 2d instant, was just received. Assured that you, upon the ground, could better judge of the necessities of your position than I could at this distance, on seeing your proclamation of August 30 I perceived no general objection to it; the particular clause, however, in relation to the confiscation of property and the liberation of slaves appeared to me to be objectionable in its non-conformity to the act of Congress, passed the 6th of last August, upon the same subjects, and hence I wrote you expressing my wish that that clause should be modified accordingly. Your answer just received expresses the preference on your part that I should make an open order for the modification, which I very cheerfully do. It is therefore ordered that the said clause of said proclamation be so modified, held, and construed as to conform with and not to transcend the provisions on the same subject contained in the act of Congress entitled ‘An act to confiscate property used for insurrectionary purposes’ approved August 6, 1861, and that said act be published at length with this order.
” Your obedient servant,
A. LINCOLN.”

Posted by: JAimeInTexas | Aug 17 2017 15:15 utc | 131

Not that it will make any difference. These are a sample from studies I did many years ago.
Within the last 10 years, letters been found in England, where Lincoln was still working on sending free blacks out of these uSA. Lincoln was still working for the colonization project through his war against Southern Independence.
This is a sample of the news at the time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356078/Abraham-Lincoln-tried-deport-slaves-British-colonies.html
——————————————-
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jala/29.1/magness.html
Benjamin Butler’s Colonization Testimony Reevaluated
PHILLIP W. MAGNESS
One morning in the waning days of the Civil War, Major General Benjamin F. Butler called upon Abraham Lincoln at the White House. An obviously concerned Lincoln approached the general in private, acting “very much disturbed” in thought.1 Questioning Butler, the president remarked, “But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free?”2 With the hostilities of the previous four years drawing to a close, Lincoln’s attention now turned to the condition and future of the emancipated slaves. “I fear a race war,” he confided, while expressing concern that the enlisted black soldiers of the Union army would “be but little better off with their masters than they were before” if no action was taken to prevent it. The solution, he observed, was to be found in a program of colonization. Continued Lincoln, “I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes.”3
1
Instructed to study the feasibility of a colonization plan, Butler departed the Executive Mansion, promising to return with his findings. A few days later he again called on Lincoln. The logistical scale of colonizing the freedmen of the South, he reported, would make a comprehensive colonization program impossible. Butler proposed an alternative in which the “one hundred and fifty thousand negro troops” that were “now enlisted” in the federal army could be transported to a long-proposed colony location on the Panama isthmus where they could find employment in digging an American canal between the two oceans. “After we get ourselves established” on the isthmus, “we will petition Congress under your recommendation to send down to us our wives and children,” thus apparently inducing a free migration of blacks to the new colony. “There is meat in that, General Butler, there is meat in that,” responded Lincoln with instructions to the general to pursue preparations for the plan.4 Butler was apparently to lead a renewed administration policy for colonization—a topic that occupied substantial attention within the Lincoln administration prior to January 1, 1863, but had since been supplanted by other priorities as the war progressed and, according to a common interpretation, abandoned entirely. It was the last time the two would meet, as Lincoln’s life ended with an assassin’s bullet a few days later.
2
So goes a well-known and controversial anecdote related late in life by General Butler. Though the colonization issue appeared frequently in the early years of the Lincoln presidency, its placement by Butler a few short days before Lincoln’s death, if accepted as true, may require a revision of longstanding interpretations of both Lincoln’s racial views and post-war policy goals at his untimely death. Hinting at those implications, George Frederickson observes that acceptance of the Butler anecdote would suggest that “Lincoln continued to his dying day to deny the possibility of racial harmony in the United States and persisted in regarding colonization as the only real alternative to perpetual race conflict.”5
(snip)
The present inquiry set out to provide a firmer basis for evaluating Butler’s colonization anecdote by resolving the issue of its reported timeline. Though established in date, the anecdote leaves many additional questions unanswered and provides room for further examination of an underexplored area of Lincoln’s presidency. As the full conversation between Butler and Lincoln was known only to its participants, one of them assassinated only three days later and the other writing of it twice several decades after the fact, a comprehensive and unbiased record of its events is unlikely ever to emerge. What is certain is that a private meeting in 1865 between Butler and Lincoln occurred. The details of this meeting, as conveyed by Butler, exhibit duly acknowledged signs of embellishment and the distorting effects of their distance from the event itself. Beginning with the meeting’s known date though, the two Butler accounts deserve greater attention than they have received. Sufficient evidence exists to merit additional consideration of Lincoln’s colonization views later in life, and tends to caution against the conclusiveness that many scholars have previously attached to the view that Lincoln fully abandoned this position. The Butler anecdote remains an imperfect example, yet some of its more plausible details may indicate that Lincoln retained an interest in colonization, even if limited, as late as 1865.

Posted by: JAimeInTexas | Aug 17 2017 15:20 utc | 132

The commentary on this subject reflects the lack of training prospective teachers get on the underlying history, those teaching grades 7-12 where most students within the Outlaw US Empire get taught its history. I know well what those prospective teachers don’t get having gone through it myself, and frankly I was shocked at how shallow the requirements were to get credentialed. For example, the upper division semester length class dealing with the US Civil War isn’t a requirement–it’s an elective–as are more periodic history classes plus world and foreign nation histories. Their shallow education in the subject they’re supposed to teach provides a rather predictable result–essentially untaught students who find they dislike learning history because it’s taught so poorly.
In his 2000 campaign, Nader remarked on the great lack of citizen training/civic education those responsible for holding their representatives accountable display and suggested that such needed to be provided through high school civics classes, which are almost a universal requirement for graduation. What occurred at the end of that election proved just how correct his assessment was on that issue and how totally apathetic the US citizenry is about governing itself–the Supreme Court Coup should never have occurred, nor the Florida recount been allowed to be illegally stopped. History and its related civic literacy matter a whole lot as events prove over and over again.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2017 15:25 utc | 133

@133 karlof1.. i agree with you, and thanks for your comment @45 as well.. unfortunately many people are not interesting in history.. it doesn’t help that those who might teach it are not educated to do it.. education in an institution might inspire one to want to learn more, but i think it is thru those who have a strong interest in a subject and are motivated to learn more about it, that is the best form of education.. it doesn’t always happen in a classroom, but is more likely to be the result of someone showing a strong interest in a particular subject.. i suppose getting a well rounded education implies not everything is covered.. life is the best education of all.. reading the comments here seeing the diversity of thought and how others come to a position, right or wrong – informed, or only partly informed.. it is all informative for anyone paying attention!

Posted by: james | Aug 17 2017 16:25 utc | 134

@ karlof1 and james
I agree with the need to teach history but want to broaden that to include anthropology to better give some of our evolution some context. Anything to reduce the hubris that seems to be driving us now.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 17 2017 16:38 utc | 135

james @134–
Thanks for your well thought reply. To make history and any other subject appealing to students, teachers need to link the content to today’s context–to make the connection between past and present that shows why learning about the past is actually very important. Without a deep grasp of what occurred in the past, it’s very difficult to make the required connections with the present.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2017 16:44 utc | 136

By all means, teach history. Whose version?
Government schools will teach the official version, Feds’, comixed with whatever the political faction controls a given State.
On Lee being brutal. Are you confusing Lee with Sherman, Sheridian or Custer?
On Lee being a racist. Have read any biography of Lee’s.

Posted by: JaimeOnTexas | Aug 17 2017 17:44 utc | 137

Washington may have owned slaves, but he also wanted and pushed for the abolition of slavery; he was against slavery and acted on this belief. Lee, on the other hand, was the general for a movement to preserve slavery. I am glad these statues are being removed. What was done to blacks was grotesque and there has been precious little acknowledgement of this fact, either symbolically or materially. I like the suggestion of someone to build a park out of these statues, as the Russians have done with Soviet statues.

Posted by: Edward | Aug 17 2017 18:25 utc | 138

The majority of articles appearing on MOA are of high quality and show a high degree of consistency but here MOA misses the ball.
Analog to the story about the Lee statue and its fate; if there was a huge statue of Adolf Hitler at let’s say a Frankfurt university, it should be maintained by the German society (which of course still includes jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, …) because Hitler once scribbled some romantic poem (or whatever) and the statue itself is of intrinsic value to some German citizens. WTF!?!
Lyndon Johnson as an example is as bad because he was co-responsible for millions of Vietnamese deaths but Vietnamese mainly live in Vietnam and wouldn’t be confronted with his statue, they don’t have any right over US soil nor do they need to pay for its maintenance. The story would be different if such statue would stand in Ho Chi Minh City for example.
There is little doubt that opportunistic career politicians like Clinton, McCain, etc would like and maybe even succeed in hijacking the resentment and movements against the far right that goes under different labels but that doesn’t invalidate those resentments and movements. The latest Charlottesville posts on MOA remind me of election campgain Trump and the disbelief that a Trump administration would actually continue the policies of the predecessing administrations.
The good thing about Trump is that his support for the far right and nazis is known and visible and it’s also perceived like that domestically and internationally. A US aggression on Venezuela, North Korea or any other country makes it more complex for the presstitutes to sell it to the ‘world’ because of perceivable similarities with the ‘Third Reich’.
The worst case scenario now is some kind of coup or assasination on Trump. The ongoing US political upheaval weakens its position and the multipolar world can only benefit from that.

Posted by: xor | Aug 17 2017 18:54 utc | 139

When Abraham Lincoln delivered his second inaugural address on March 4, 1865, at the end of four years of civil war, few people in either the North or the South would have dissented from his statement that slavery “was, somehow, the cause of the war.”1 At the war’s outset in 1861 Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederacy, had justified secession as an act of self-defense against the incoming Lincoln administration, whose policy of excluding slavery from the territories would make “property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless,…thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars.”2
The Confederate vice-president, Alexander H. Stephens, had said in a speech at Savannah on March 21, 1861, that slavery was “the immediate cause of the late rupture and the present revolution” of Southern independence. The United States, said Stephens, had been founded in 1776 on the false idea that all men are created equal. The Confederacy, by contrast,
is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based on this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.3
Unlike Lincoln, Davis and Stephens survived the war to write their memoirs. By then, slavery was gone with the wind. To salvage as much honor and respectability as they could from their lost cause, they set to work to purge it of any association with the now dead and discredited institution of human bondage. In their postwar views, both Davis and Stephens hewed to the same line: Southern states had seceded not to protect slavery, but to vindicate state sovereignty. This theme became the virgin birth theory of secession: the Confederacy was conceived not by any worldly cause, but by divine principle.
Southern Comfort
James M. McPherson
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/04/12/southern-comfort/

Posted by: mauisurfer | Aug 17 2017 18:57 utc | 140

The right response would have been to put up a bunch more statues of Martin Luther King and such. But people wanted a fight.

Posted by: paul | Aug 17 2017 19:06 utc | 141

PH @135–
The reason I minored in anthropology was because it’s actually the history of humanity’s evolution from physical and sociocultural aspects while providing perspectives you don’t get from traditional history courses. I used what I learned the few times I taught World History.
JAimeInTexas @131 & 132–Excellent material you posted. As I wrote earlier, the US Civil War is far more complicated/complex than what’s provided educationally, which is often superficial and rather dumbed-down.
JaimeOnTexas @137–I’d guess you’re the same individual who commented at 131 & 132. “Whose version?” Secondary history teachers are mandated by their state’s curriculum goals and accompanying textbooks are tailored to them. Here’s a sample of such standards, http://static.pdesas.org/content/documents/Academic_Standards_for_History_(Secondary).pdf Here’s another that’s far more detailed and goes from K-12, http://www.cde.ca.gov/BE/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf Please note that as indicated in the last document, the US Civil War is only taught in the 8th grade, while also noting what students are supposed to learn about it. After that if the student matriculates to college, s/he only gets about one week’s worth of instruction about the US Civil War within the first semester of the required Intro to US History course. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that is rather poor level of education for such a profoundly complex and important aspect of the Outlaw US Empire’s history. Private and Charter schools are no better. Summer vacations are nice, but they rob children and society of gaining the education required for functionality. If it were up to me, the school year would be year-round, divided into trimesters, with US History taking 6 of those sessions to be properly introduced, containing a heavy dose of countervailing voices airbrushed from history as now taught. But, what would happen to all those Back to School sales and related profits to business and all the other upheavals such a pragmatic change would bring?
The ultimate question is: Whose interests are to be served via universal public education? Or, What the hell is best for the students?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2017 19:23 utc | 142

Face it, the Confederacy were the ISIS of their day:
– rebellion against the elected president – Check
– establishment of a treasonous state – Check
– slave markets – Check
– sexual slavery – Check
– execution of prisoners of war – Check
what would those so solicitous of confederate statues say about statues of Abū Bakr al-Baghdadi ?

Posted by: Paul Cockshott | Aug 17 2017 20:19 utc | 143

We need anthropoligcal historIans to explain our past. 2000 years ago Hadrian’s wall was built. Was that an early preview into race relations today?

Posted by: Ed | Aug 17 2017 20:28 utc | 144

The irony of the takedowns of the Lenin statues is that Lenin was the true father of the unitary Ukrainian state that the Slava Ookraeena types pulling down the statues hold so dear. He brokered the deal where the Donbas region was added to the Ukrainian People’s Republic to form the Ukrainian SSR, essentially buying their loyalty to the Bolshevik Revolution. But as Ookraeena heads inexorably towards decay and disintegration Lenin’s experiment looks to be going down as a failure.
Ookraeena’s national anthem is “Ukraine Is Not Dead Yet.” Maybe not, but it’s sure smelling that way.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 17 2017 20:32 utc | 145

129
The youth of China against their parents. Ie to break traditional authority and replace it with the authority of the state. I don’t see anything like that in Charlottesville.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 20:54 utc | 146

@144 “We need anthropoligcal historIans to explain our past. 2000 years ago Hadrian’s wall was built. Was that an early preview into race relations today?”
That was all white people. Romans versus Celts. Doesn’t count.

Posted by: dh | Aug 17 2017 21:21 utc | 147

146
….and the youth of China against the educational system and intellectuals in general, condemning their country to dysfunction and stagnation for years. Rebuilding the Chinese educational system after that debacle was a decades-long project.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 17 2017 21:25 utc | 148

Ed @144–
First, it must be stated that anthropology recognizes no such construction as “Race”: nor, was such a formulation present when Hadrian built his wall. There is only one race–the human race–that’s populated with numerous ethnicities having distinct cultures all of which have the capability at birth to learn every language in existence–past and present–through the mechanism known as Universal Grammar. Race then is an artificial construct designed to segregate differing ethnicities to keep them from confronting a Power wanting to control them. And as opposed to Hadrian’s, China’s Great Wall, The Berlin Wall, the artificial barrier called race has performed much better at separating people who ought to be in solidarity. As concepts, Race and Racism ought to have died decades ago but are kept on life-support by media and dead-enders and the forces of Power that gain from its continuance. Jefferson was correct when he penned the Declaration: All people are [hypothetically] created equal, although numerous things can confound that equality–birth defects and place of origin being two of the most important.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2017 21:41 utc | 149

The youth of China against their parents. Ie to break traditional authority and replace it with the authority of the state. I don’t see anything like that in Charlottesville.
Posted by: somebody | Aug 17, 2017 4:54:42 PM | 146

Yes but:
Experience has repeatedly shown that you claiming to not see something is no guide at all to whether or not it actually exists.
‘Tis a very foolish person indeed that would judge a situtaion based on any evaluation that originates from you, imho.

Posted by: Just Sayin’ | Aug 17 2017 21:44 utc | 150

147
The Romans colonised parts of Africa, too.
Romans had no concept of race. Their historians described tribes. They integrated everybody into their empire by superior technology and warcraft.

The Romans had various sources of slaves—war, birth, piracy, and the long distance trade from outside the empire. Of these, war, the enslavement of Rome’s defeated enemies, was one of the most important. The commanding general determined the fate of war captives, whom the Romans considered part of the plunder. Usually, the general handed over the captives to an official who sold them at auction to traders who followed the armies. Cicero’s behavior after a small victory during his governorship of Cilicia was typical. He gave his soldiers all the plunder except the captives whom he sold on 19 December 51 BCE: “as I write, there is about 120,000 sesterces on the platform.” Cicero’s words mark out auction as a step in the commodification of the humans sold—a step toward social death. Cicero did not even count the captives that he put up for sale; for him, they were not Cilicians—just 120,000 sesterces.
To use modern terms, the Romans were “equal opportunity” enslavers: they did not limit their enslavements to one people, place, or, in our terms, race. From the late third century BCE through the early third century CE, as the Romans conquered the Mediterranean basin, the Balkans, much of the modern Middle East, Europe west of the Rhine River, they often enslaved at least some of their defeated enemies. Although the numbers given in ancient sources are notoriously unreliable, a few examples indicate the scale of capture and enslavement. In 177 BCE, during his campaign in Sardinia, Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus killed or enslaved 80,000 of the island’s inhabitants. In 167 BCE the Roman senate granted the victorious Roman general in Greece the right to sack seventy cities on the west coast of Greece: 150,000 persons were enslaved. Although the nearly continuous wars of expansion of the last two BCE came to an end under imperial Rome, the empire still waged wars and enslaved many of the conquered. To name a few, Augustus’s wars against the Alpine tribes and in Spain, Tiberius’s wars along the Rhine, Claudius’s conquest of Britain, campaigns against the Parthians, Trajan’s wars in Dacia, and Marcus Aurelius’ campaign across the Danube all brought captives to Rome as slaves. Revolts in the provinces, though rarer, too, resulted in enslavements. In the Jewish War (in what is now Israel) in 66-70 CE, to take a dramatic example, 97,000 people were enslaved.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 21:54 utc | 151

Posted by: Just Sayin’ | Aug 17, 2017 5:44:53 PM | 150
Experience has repeatedly shown that you claiming to not see something is no guide at all to whether or not it actually exists.
Surely, this is true for every human and the universe?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2017 22:19 utc | 152

Perhaps.
But it is especially true in your case.

Posted by: Just Sayin’ | Aug 17 2017 22:26 utc | 153

Well, I’ve read several well argued essays that have persuaded me to reverse my position on the removal of statues, the following two in particular: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/17/president-trumps-white-blindness/
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/08/17/when-will-united-states-transcend-white-supremacy
Perhaps those who agreed with me will read them and also change their minds.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2017 23:44 utc | 154

143
Before 1861, how many secession threats, arguments, conventions were made? By which States? Were there any assumptions as to the authority of a State to regain any delegated powers/authorities granted to the creature/agent?

Posted by: JaimeOnTexas | Aug 18 2017 0:23 utc | 155

142
We home schooled four children, two through high school, two through intermediate.
Had to stop home schooling because the lack of inflation, somehow, kept eating at the one paycheck.
Wife had to go back to work.

Posted by: JaimeOnTexas | Aug 18 2017 0:27 utc | 156

Karlof1
A couple of pieces from the consortium news link
…Trump tweeted: “Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments. You can’t change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson – who’s next, Washington, Jefferson? So foolish!”….
….These were monuments to white supremacy — and for Trump and other white Americans to pretend otherwise is anti-historical nonsense.
On the second article, US seems to consist of a number of cultures that generally can exist together.
Perhaps the white American culture and African american cultures are the two prominent cultures.
Trump I am starting to see as America’s Gorbachov, neither good nor bad, but in trying to turn the country away from where the neo-cons and globalists are taking it, will probably oversee the downfall of the US.
Over the last few years the globalists and neo-con have used cultural and religious differences as exist in the US for colour revolutions around the world.
It is difficult to create the conditions for two cultures to co-exist and interact peacefully, and exceptionally easy to turn them against each, more so with the sort of history between the African American and and what is considered the white American.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 18 2017 0:32 utc | 157

@151 German slaves were used mostly for menial tasks in Rome I understand. Mining, farming that kind of thing. Though they could work their way through the system and become Roman citizens. Arminius, aka Hermann, for instance who defeated the legions in the Teutoburg Forest.

Posted by: dh | Aug 18 2017 0:35 utc | 158

karlof1 | Aug 17, 2017 11:25:04 AM | 133
Yes, I well remember it also. A very shallow dive in the shallow end of the pool.
But then the whole U.S. educational system in shockingly inadequate.
Encyclopedias like “The World Book” were nothing more than an expensive joke.
My few attempts at university were a waste with me exploding on my lame professors for not doing their jobs.
Quite possibly, the best education is to be had in Russia; and their universities don’t bankrupt; either financially or educationally.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 0:54 utc | 159

karlof1 | Aug 17, 2017 5:41:20 PM | 149
+1 Well said.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 0:57 utc | 160

Somebody @152

Surely, this is true for every human and the universe?

Yes. Every human, in fact, every sentient being in the Universe, should be wary of what you say.
Congratulations! Knowing you have a problem is the first step …

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2017 2:38 utc | 161

Somebody @152

Surely, this is true for every human and the universe?

Yes. Every human, in fact, every sentient being in the Universe, should be wary of what you say.
Congratulations! Knowing you have a problem is the first step …

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2017 2:42 utc | 162

What I’m not getting in all this is this: suppose you could wave a magic wand and have all confederate flags and statues miraculously disappear from this country. What then? After the feel good moment has passed, you would be stuck with the same problems as before (crime, education opportunities, health care, … – take your pick ).
This whole thing seems like a sideshow – one designed primarily to ‘get’ Trump.

Posted by: ian | Aug 18 2017 3:11 utc | 163

To continue from where I left off:
b, your effort to construct a broader, multi-dimensional symbolic picture of “Robert E. Lee” is commendable. It recognizes that the simplistic picture of Lee as a “[racist] brutal man who fought for racism and slavery” is insufficient to allow meaningful discussion. Others here have explained quite well how your simplistic construct of Lee is wrong. I think that you may be pardoned for it, as a European who may not be intimately familiar with that period of US history, but I would like to ask where you learned this symbol of “Robert E. Lee” = brutal, racist? Who taught you such slander? Clearly, other commenters here also believe this simple lie. Where have they learned it?
The answers to these questions may reveal quite a bit about this particular Information Operation. You may correct me if I am wrong, please, but I suspect that you have borrowed your symbolic lexicon from the initial reporting of this incident. This reporting started with, and continues to describe Lee as a symbol of racism, slavery, hatred. It does not delve into Lee’s character or record. It hardly discusses him at all, just presents the public with the construct “Robert E. Lee” = racist as a given, and moves on. And it has been remarkably successful. The public has accepted this simplistic symbol as a given. The symbolic argument that follows is that Lee is only racism, and racism is bad, so anyone that defends Lee must be racist, no need for further discussion. It’s hardly a new attack, is it? But it’s never been this effective.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 18 2017 3:18 utc | 164

mauisurfer @140
That is a somewhat one-sided view that whitewashes Northern guilt.
With the election of Lincoln, northern manufacturers were in a good position to raise tariffs on cotton and other southern goods so that Northern manufacturers could further increase their profits at the expense of southern crop-growers as described here:

[Southerners resented] … the large profits amassed by Northern businessmen from marketing the cotton crop, Southerners attributed the backwardness of their own section [of the country] to Northern aggrandizement.

If the North had wanted slavery to end, the Emancipation proclamation would’ve been issued at the start of the war, not in the middle (after the North experienced a set-back).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2017 3:34 utc | 165

SJWs attack on statues is comical at a time when:

1) participating in BDS is being criminalized;
2) an opiate epidemic is killing people every day;
3) the US has the greatest wealth inequality in its history;
4) there is pervasive surveillance;
5) there is clear evidence of “rigged” elections (DNC working for Hillary, Sanders as sheepdog).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2017 3:45 utc | 166

/~~~~~~~~~~
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
\~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by: blues | Aug 18 2017 3:58 utc | 167

V. Arnold @ 112: Thanks for the Krieger article, excellent read..
Better a late read than never…

Posted by: ben | Aug 18 2017 4:28 utc | 168

Everyone should wakeup and realize that the calls for removal of statues is just part of the Purple Revolution coup to remove Trump with someone acceptable/pliable to the deep state.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/11/11/clintons-and-soros-launch-america-purple-revolution.html
Trump is right that removing images of Confederate soldiers is a slippery slope. What next:
Gettysburg memorials;
Statues in Congress;
Names of street, school, bridge, roads (etc.) across the US (millions of them);
The Jefferson and Lincoln (a racist) memorials;
Mount Rushmore (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-17/lets-blow-mount-rushmore-says-vice);
Once all the statues are destroyed we can focus on the currency replacing all the dead presidents, in God we trust and all the Masonic symbols. Although, replacing dead presidents with birds (e.g. loons), butterflies, hummingbirds, flowers, trees and rocks does appeal to me!
From there we should recognize that the US wars of aggression on people of color are truly evil and those who died taking part in them should not be recognized on monuments. We can start with the Vietnam memorial and work our way down to the local level. The memorials can be replaced with statues of the heroes that fell opposing US aggression, much like the famous stone monument to great Native American leaders.
To help in this cultural transition, deep cuts in the US military need to be undertaken. The saving can be used initially to reclaim military pollution worldwide. Later the funds can be used to reclaim damage to the environment and improve the health, education and skills of the American people.
These efforts must also destroy the financialization of the economy that results in a plantation economy:
http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2017/08/why-were-doomed-our-economys-toxic.html
http://www.unz.com/mhudson/putting-an-end-to-the-rent-economy
Means must be found to claw back the trillions robbed from the people by the Federal Reserve system and replace it with a true National bank. This will also require that the psychopaths (past and present) in government, banking and industry by detained, punished and undergo reeducation in work camps.
We must recognize that further human growth is bad and recognize the need for a no human growth world:
http://www.albartlett.org/
http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/rome/
https://www.kateraworth.com/doughnut/
The problem with these and similar sustainability ideas is that it is dangerous to consider these ideas in gentle conversation. Back to our regularly scheduled programming pioneered by Edward Bernays and perfected by the elites. Ignore the man behind the curtain and continue killing each other:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-17/tearing-down-liberty
Stock up on popcorn as this chaos is only just beginning. Remember to duck and cover and avoid the crazies (zombies) where possible. The Zombieland movie may serve as a tutorial…

Posted by: Krollchem | Aug 18 2017 4:47 utc | 169

Krollchem | Aug 18, 2017 12:47:38 AM | 169
+1
I’m not hopeful…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 5:33 utc | 170

Continued again:
The question of the meaning of “Robert E. Lee” raises the question: what does “Alt-Right” mean? (here’s where the real fireworks start). Clearly, just as the oligarchy has advanced the simple symbolic definition of “Robert E. Lee” = racist, the oligarchy is also passing off the simple definition “Alt-Right” = Nazi. Again, it has succeeded wildly. Discussion here and other places worth having discussions at starts and ends with “Alt-Right” = Nazi. Nazis are bad, so it’s abundantly clear that “Alt-Right” is bad, right? And of course, anyone who questions it must be bad and Nazi as well.
Well, maybe the oligarchs really do NAZI the fallacy in that!
What do you know about Alt-Right and its followers? If your sole source of information is a known propaganda vector, you may wish to reconsider your construct.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 18 2017 5:37 utc | 171

@104 Billy Yankee perhaps your ancestor would rather have memorialized this:

“Having thus formed, the brigades standing at ‘order arms,’ the head of the Confederate column, General Gordon in command, and the old ‘Stonewall’ Jackson Brigade leading, started down into the valley which lay between us, and approached our lines. With my staff I was on the extreme right of the line, mounted on horseback, and in a position nearest the Rebel solders who were approaching our right.
“Ah, but it was a most impressive sight, a most striking picture, to see that whole army in motion to lay down the symbols of war and strife, that army which had fought for four terrible years after a fashion but infrequently known in war.
“At such a time and under such conditions I thought it eminently fitting to show some token of our feeling, and I therefore instructed my subordinate officers to come to the position of ‘salute’ in the manual of arms as each body of the Confederates passed before us.
“It was not a ‘present arms,’ however, not a ‘present,’ which then as now was the highest possible honor to be paid even to a president. It was the ‘carry arms,’ as it was then known, with musket held by the right hand and perpendicular to the shoulder. I may best describe it as a marching salute in review.
“When General Gordon came opposite me I had the bugle blown and the entire line came to ‘attention,’ preparatory to executing this movement of the manual successively and by regiments as Gordon’s columns should pass before our front, each in turn.
“The General was riding in advance of his troops, his chin drooped to his breast, downhearted and dejected in appearance almost beyond description. At the sound of that machine like snap of arms, however, General Gordon started, caught in a moment its significance, and instantly assumed the finest attitude of a soldier. He wheeled his horse facing me, touching him gently with the spur, so that the animal slightly reared, and as he wheeled, horse and rider made one motion, the horse’s head swung down with a graceful bow, and General Gordon dropped his swordpoint to his toe in salutation.
“By word of mouth General Gordon sent back orders to the rear that his own troops take the same position of the manual in the march past as did our line. That was done, and a truly imposing sight was the mutual salutation and farewell.
… “The emotion of the conquered soldiery was really sad to witness. Some of the men who had carried and followed those ragged standards through the four long years of strife, rushed, regardless of all discipline, from the ranks, bent about their old flags, and pressed them to their lips with burning tears.
“And it can well be imagined, too, that there was no lack of emotion on our side, but the Union men were held steady in their lines, without the least show of demonstration by word or by motion. There was, though, a twitching of the muscles of their faces, and, be it said, their battle-bronzed cheeks were not altogether dry. Our men felt the import of the occasion, and realized fully how they would have been affected if defeat and surrender had been their lot after such a fearful struggle.

–From Gen. Joshua Chamberlain’s account of the surrender at Appomatox.
Perhaps your ancestor was witness to this event?

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 18 2017 5:46 utc | 172

Good in depth analysis of the power play behind the internal coup against Trump:
The Neocons are pushing the USA and the rest of the world towards a dangerous crisis
http://thesaker.is/the-neocons-are-pushing-the-usa-and-the-rest-of-the-world-towards-a-dangerous-crisis/

Posted by: Krollchem | Aug 18 2017 5:46 utc | 173

It’s annoying to read so many here catapulting the old propaganda that the American Civil War wasn’t about slavery. The articles of secession of Georgia, Texas, South Carolina, Virginia, and Mississippi expressly say slavery is why they secede. https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
Also, Robert E. Lee was absolutely racist (in a way many of his time weren’t) and a vicious slaveowner. B is right: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Posted by: NoOneYouKnow | Aug 18 2017 6:08 utc | 174

NoOneYouKnow | Aug 18, 2017 2:08:34 AM | 173
If memory serves; the civil war was about state’s rights, which included slavery.
One of many barbarities in a long history of barbarism…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 7:17 utc | 175

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 18, 2017 1:37:43 AM | 171
The Alt-Right did that with this “Unite the Right” march. If they don’t draw any distinction why should we.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 8:20 utc | 176

162
I was suggesting that you might have this problem, too ….

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 8:24 utc | 177

Oliver Stone: “1984 Is Here”
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell
And history is being erased as I type these letters.
It’s incumbent on those, who do know history, to always speak truth to power.
Charlottesville is in fact complex on the one hand and almost too simple on the other; I’ve been wrestling with this ever since; I’m inclined towards; leave the statues alone for what they are; a constant reminder of our history and its unbridled ugliness since first contact.
Denial is a signature element of U.S. society (I’m not sure the U.S. even has a culture).
Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick have donated an immense contribution to the genuine history of the U.S. along with the late Howard Zinn.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 10:11 utc | 178

By the way – Trump is no protector of historical monuments

In December, shortly before leaving office, Obama infuriated Utah Republicans by creating the Bears Ears national monument on more than 1m acres of land that is sacred to Native Americans and home to tens of thousands of archaeological sites, including ancient cliff dwellings.
Republicans in the state asked Trump to take the unusual step of reversing Obama’s decision. They said the monument designation would stymie growth by closing the area to commercial and energy development. The Antiquities Act does not give the president explicit power to undo a designation and no president has ever taken such a step.
Trump’s order also targets the Grand Staircase-Escalante national monument in Utah, created by Clinton in 1996, and Katahdin Woods and Waters in Maine, created last year by Obama. At 87,500 acres, Katahdin is the only one of the 22 monuments under review that is smaller than 100,000 acres, the minimum size designated by the order.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 10:29 utc | 179

You would benefit greatly from refreasher course on the history of these monuments to white supremacy… http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5995a3a6e4b0d0d2cc84c952/amp

Posted by: Bill J | Aug 18 2017 10:30 utc | 180

Addendum; I’m no longer inclined;
leave the fucking statues where they are; it’s critically important to the future of the U.S.; if in fact the U.S. is to survive…
History damnit, history must survive; if for no other reason than to accurately look at the late, great U.S.A.; all its warts, crimes against humanity, its genocide of native peoples, and finally, its pathetic attempt to maintain its hegemon; obviously doomed to failure.
In a just world, that history would be very useful; but then, in this, I’m a rediculous hopeful…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 10:41 utc | 181

Bill J | Aug 18, 2017 6:30:40 AM | 179
And you would benefit greatly from reading my posts accurately.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 10:43 utc | 182

Conservatives are not amused – The national review

Most of the debate about Confederate monuments after Charlottesville has been a distraction. The rally organizers came prepared for violence, and they wanted it. They wanted footage of themselves getting punched and maced so that they could use conservative antipathy to Antifa to erode conservative antipathy to ActualFascists. Don’t fall for it.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 10:50 utc | 183

Conservatives are not amused – The national review

Most of the debate about Confederate monuments after Charlottesville has been a distraction. The rally organizers came prepared for violence, and they wanted it. They wanted footage of themselves getting punched and maced so that they could use conservative antipathy to Antifa to erode conservative antipathy to ActualFascists. Don’t fall for it.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 10:50 utc | 184

V. Arnold says:
I’m inclined towards; leave the statues alone for what they are…
yeah, me too. legacy can be splendidly evocative.

Posted by: john | Aug 18 2017 11:04 utc | 185

john | Aug 18, 2017 7:04:33 AM | 184
Wow, unexpected, yours.
Thanks
It’s interesting, at the least, as to why people are so frightened of THEIR history.
Vanity? Ego? Cultural identity? Supremacist tendencies?
Usain’s think they can erase their history; lol, not going to happen.
I think its the destruction of the image they fear.
The illusion of a democratic country; a few exist, yes, but not the late, great, U.S. of A.; the last illusion going down. Hard!
And none too soon…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 11:24 utc | 186

V. Arnold says:
I think its the destruction of the image they fear
yeah, certainly, ’cause…
‘No other nation’ has made its past a ‘construct of the imagination’ to the extent done by the US. – Professor David H. Murdoch
the USAs true legacy will be psychologically devastating to many when it becomes common knowledge, but for generations who have been trained to feel, rather than to think, that time is still a long way off. imho

Posted by: john | Aug 18 2017 12:48 utc | 187

Posted by: john | Aug 18, 2017 8:48:25 AM | 186
Yes exactly.
Trained to feel rather than think; a very cogent point, lost to most…
All in all, I’m not hopeful; the U.S. is lost in ideology and just plain wrong thinking.
An inability to critique its own dialogue; the path forward to a future it cannot envision…

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 18 2017 13:12 utc | 188

182, 183
Any protester at the right of antifa must dress and act according to antifa’s requirements, so that antifa can beat the crap out of them, so that antifa can burn stuff and brake glass unimpeded. Any one the comes prepared to defend against antifa’s peaceful mayhem is vicious and violent, to be condemned by the MSM, Democrats, socialists, Bernie (I repeat myself), and National Review.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Aug 18 2017 13:38 utc | 189

Nah, fuck that. The statues should be put in museums because these are people who existed but no way should they be prominently displayed.

Posted by: KP | Aug 18 2017 14:12 utc | 190

Simple solution for statues, creates one OK full time job.
The statue is shrouded with screening curtains. Ppl who walk by or come there can choose to have the curtains lifted, provided they seem sincere and stick around to see the statue. The park-museum municipal employee thus does his/her job, Ta-Da, the figure is revealed.
Hire someone with punch and presence, snazzily dressed and with a loud voice.. One can also demand payment for the opening and closing, such as 10 cents, symbolic. Then closed off again as it might ‘offend’ others. Everyone knows what the statue is and what it looks like (or can view on the intertubes) – seeing it or not is trivial – problemo finito. 🙂
Or create: The park of the Condemned Statues. Let them RIP. Or rather, Stand up in Peace? The statues are removed from public space to an area that feels like private space, ‘enclosed.’ The ‘park’ doesn’t cost much (outdoor) and can be ‘sold’ as ‘educational’ etc. Here a proper, stiff, entrance fee is required.
errrr…The first glib ‘conceptual art’ move won’t ever be implemented in the US, nor the second, as the only aim is to rile ppl up rather than ‘solving a problem,’ the statues themselves are convenient patsies, plus as is obvious from thread some ppl feel strongly about all this!
Trump-bashing thru crowd-tribal mobilisation is implemented under some disguise, etc. As instigated from above or by ‘organisers’ who are paid to do so; the displays have an unmistakable rotten perfume smell of manipulation, shepherding, bad street theatre performed for the cams, etc.
Remember Occupy? What about the inept and ridiculous Black Lives Matter? Imho it was just a money making scam, the Nth charity ‘thingie’.. money in the coffers and some jobs … And now Antifa and so called White Supremacists…I have mentioned divide to rule so many times I can’t do it anymore!
All this statue BS will be forgotten in a few weeks.
Interesting that statues provoke more posts than starving children?

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 18 2017 14:40 utc | 191

I apologize if this was already posted:
There are two videos making the rounds, one supporting slavery as the cause of the civil war, the other refuting the first video and arguing states rights and taxation as the cause. Well worth watching both:
slavery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPOnL-PZeCc
states rights/taxes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPOnL-PZeCc

Posted by: frances | Aug 18 2017 16:18 utc | 192

The antifas should start a Supporters of William T Sherman charity and pay to put up statues of William T Sherman throughout the south wherever there is a statue to Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and particularly Nathan Bedford Forrest. After all many southerns are alive because of his actions which ended the pointless slaughter that the American Civil War had become. That the politicians then blew the situation he had created and screwed up the reconstruction was not his fault. But I can understand Native Americans having an issue with this.

Posted by: Ghostship | Aug 18 2017 16:34 utc | 193

The knife and trucks attacks in recent days really show how EU politicians have failed, still no political party seems to care?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2017 16:37 utc | 194

>>>> frances | Aug 18, 2017 12:18:11 PM | 192
Since slavery was a matter that had been decided on by individual states, then it obviously was a matter of the states’ right in defense of slavery – there is no contradiction between the two causes.

Posted by: Ghostship | Aug 18 2017 16:39 utc | 195

Never mind slavery, the US establishment draws the line when there is Nazism.
Bannon has left the White House.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2017 17:11 utc | 196

Trump being whimp, kicks out Bannon,
News:
“Chief strategist Steve Bannon exits Trump White House ”
Trump team is gradually becoming neocon/deepstate controlled.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2017 17:36 utc | 197

While northern agitators were agitating over slavery, they conveniently ignored the black codes and exclusion laws in northern states. Oh, and check out Oregon’s constitution of l859 and its position on blacks. Hypocrisy much?
The fact is that the whole country was, to use the modern term, racist. The radical abolitionists created a conundrum. Where were these ex-slaves to go if they got their way? Laws on the books in northern states clearly showed they weren’t welcome there.
So what was the deal? A gang of 6 in the northeast financed John brown’s raid on harper’s ferry. Did they just think a region-wide slave revolt could be kept bottled up in the south and it wouldn’t reach them?
I would say that there were those back in the day that sought to consolidate the federal government’s power and these moves served their purpose towards that end. It’s not different at all from today where we use chaos to achieve our goals in the mid-east.
In spite of all but one of our original states having slavery at our founding, in spite of it being a protected legal institutions, in spite of the naked northern racism, slavery made a most excellent cross on which to crucify our republic and with it the founding concepts of limited government and consent of the governed.
The civil war fundamentally changed the power structure of US government. Lincoln was the original ‘big brother’.
But yeah, let’s continue to shit all over the south and its effort to withstand the onslaught because …… slavery, ya’ll know.

Posted by: woogs | Aug 18 2017 18:38 utc | 198

woogs @198–
Nicely researched comment! But what changed the power structure of the USA was the Articles’s overthrow and installation of the 1787 Constitution.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 18 2017 19:41 utc | 199

I would highly recommend the website SlaveNorth for any that want a broader understanding of slavery, the slave trade and the part the north played from our colonial days up to the war between the states.

Posted by: woogs | Aug 18 2017 19:42 utc | 200