Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 13, 2017

Charlottesville: What You Wish Upon Others, You Wish Upon Yourself

U.S. "liberals" cuddle fascists and right-wing religious extremists in Libya, Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela and elsewhere.

But when similar movements appear on their own streets they are outraged.

The person in the center on the above picture drove his car into a crowd of counter-protesters in Charlottesville killing one and wounding several.

Politicians and media hail such persons when they appear, often hired by the CIA, to overthrow the government of some foreign country. They condemn the same mindset and actions at home. But glorification of right-wing violence elsewhere hands justification to right-wing groups at home.

Above: Fascist torch march in Kiev January 28 2017. Then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Republican Senator McCain, The New York Times, the Washington Post and many "liberals" supported the above nazis.

Above: Fascist torch march in Charlottesville, August 11 2017. Former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, Republican Senator McCain, the New York Times, the Washington Post and many "liberals" condemned the above nazis.

You can not have only one of these. 

To claim, as "liberals" do now, that such marches as in Charlottesville, "is not what and who we are", is a lie. Ask people from outside the U.S. how the empire appears and acts towards them.

The U.S. uses fascism, religious extremism, torture, targeted killing and many other vile instruments of power in its quest for global dominance. All of these methods and ideologies, all of them, will one day come home.

Posted by b on August 13, 2017 at 18:02 UTC | Permalink

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add to 100

rephrase that to "white men"

Posted by: somebody | Aug 14 2017 11:45 utc | 101


Any liberal who practises tolerance against fascists will come to regret it, fast.

You cannot tolerate intolerant people if you cannot protect yourself against them.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 14 2017 11:48 utc | 102

somebody | Aug 14, 2017 7:45:41 AM | 101

Well, duh?
You must not be a Usian if you post that as a question.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 14 2017 11:51 utc | 103


Of course, I am not.

This type of demonstration, counterdemonstration fight could not have taken place where I live.

Usually, the right would register for a permit, the center left would do the same, and - for security reasons - the right wing would be banned to the outskirts whilst the mayor and all the defenders of democracy would assemble on the main square.

No mayor wants new images of Nazi flags in front of German landmarks.

People who want a fight will have to do it with the police.

Fights between the sides are only possible outside of demonstrations with no police presence.

It seems to me that that was what the right was looking for when they went for that torch march through campus the night before the official demonstration.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 14 2017 12:22 utc | 104


What you fail to grasp is that both sides can be wrong.

The alt-right wasn't seeking tolerance; they were seeking to exercise their constitutional rights of free speech and legally-permitted peaceable assembly. Not allowing them to do so gave them a propaganda victory - even if that victory is very narrowly based.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 14 2017 12:25 utc | 105

What in the world did Syria or Libya have to do with right wing politics? AQ or ISIS is right wing? Obama/Clinton, the people who fomented the revolutions are right wing? I like this site for international news but this irrational nonsense.

Posted by: WJ | Aug 14 2017 12:56 utc | 106

Somebody @104

This comment shows that you STILL fail to understand what happened in Charlottesville and you refuse to do any work to try to understand it.

I don't know why the f*ck you are here.

As others have explained there are issues raised that go beyond a march/public demonstration. We have a constitution. People have rights. And those rights apply to everyone.

FYI The authorities tried to move the march but their statements made it clear that they were doing so NOT because of public safety but because they disagreed with the marchers ideology. So a federal judge decided that the march/protest should go ahead in Emancipation Square where the statue of Lee is. Instead of allowing the march/demonstration to proceed in a legal and orderly way, the butt-hurt liberal authorities allowed the counter-protestors to assemble and act in a way that created a pretext for determining an unsafe condition. The alt-right march/protest was cancelled before it even began. THEN the counter-protesters staged their own impromptu, illegal march in celebration of their dubious victory. The car attack was made on the counter-protesters march. The authorities use of the counter-protesters got one of them killed and many others injured. Naturally the authorities and the media blame the alt-right but the alt-right has been handed a propaganda victory that will mean MORE demands for marches and the city of Charlottesville will face many lawsuits amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars - not just from the alt-Right but (if they are smart) from the counter-protesters that were killed and injured because they were USED.

So, for the last time, NOBODY WON and NOBODY is a white-knight with clean hands here. A hateful ideology was met with scheming and hate. And the result is (predictably) a clusterf*ck.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 14 2017 13:14 utc | 107

Remember the murdered Labour MP, Jo Cox? She teamed up with Tory Andrew Mitchell (he of 'plebgate') to form Friends of Syria and press for military intervention. She also nominated the White Helmets for the Nobel Peace Prize. Naivety, ignorance, selective compassion, opportunism, lack of coherent political philosophy? Take your pick.

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Aug 14 2017 13:15 utc | 108

1)There's no 'right' to spread slander.

2)The people don't need permission from the police to crush Nazis.

3)The Nazis were not 'socialist'. Of course, they called themselves that to make their party look good.

Posted by: ruralito | Aug 14 2017 13:19 utc | 109

JimS @83

Does Soros do cointelpro?

Soros' Open Society was behnind an outfit called Otpor that was used in the regime change actions against Serbia and then others. It used a 'clenched fist' symbol. The smybol was seen in all the 'opposition' groups in regime change operations in Venezuela, Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, Armenia, Egypt, ...

Lo and behold what are the 'opposition carrying in Charlottesville? Some of the well-groomed clean cut supposed 'Alt-Right' were also doing a very good job of mimicking the neo-Nazi torchlight parade. Maybe it is the usual case of working both sides?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 14 2017 13:29 utc | 110

@107, the same old liberal/hasbara shite: both sides are just as bad.

"Legal"? That's a joke. Enough money and guns and you can make anything "legal". The farkukte "State" does it all the time.

"The hateful are hated, is that so strange?" Clytemnestra explaining to Electra why Agamemnon had to die.

Posted by: ruralito | Aug 14 2017 13:32 utc | 111

As far as I can determine there is delusional thinking right across the American political spectrum. Fingers are pointed in every which direction except where they should be pointed. This leads to a specter of the pulling in of the last of the rational actors on both the left and right across the spectrum into the camps of the irrational on both the left and right as a matter of opposing the other. As economic deterioration continues this factionalism will only get worse as the manipulations of these groupings by you know who only becomes more pronounced. In the end a offer of a return to sanity will be offered in the form of a closed down of society in which all forms of dissent will be banned as anti societal as leading to the growing chaos we see being instigated today by you know who. Americans are all being played across a wide range of emotionally driven scenarios by those able to construct such scenarios. "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized [or intentionally disorganized] habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of the country...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested largely by men we have never heard of...We are dominated by a relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."
- Edward Bernays -

Posted by: BRF | Aug 14 2017 14:25 utc | 112

Really Moon? This is your reaction? You know who else supports fascist regimes all over the world? Republicans and non-Liberals in America. Guess where you can find a plethora of sites that denounce Western Imperialism? Leftist websites if you cared to take a look. You know, leftists, aka "Liberals". This is just the stupidest laziest piece of analysis I have seen in a long time. Your motives and beliefs are becoming transparent. Just come out and say you support the White Supremacists and alt-right basement dwellers already. Our whole damn country rallies behind the imperialist project. Don't try to pin that on the "liberals" as if they own it exclusively. If you want to actually critique Western Imperialism as you seem to hint by this superficial analysis then go to any University today stocked with "Liberals" and you will find all kinds of diatribes against neoliberalism and you will find whole classes devoted to post-colonial studies. Guess what they talk about in those classes? That's right, the critique US foreign policy and its reliance on dictators and fascists. Oh yeah, remember the guy who said the "chickens are going to come home to roost"? That's right, the guy Obama "pal"ed around with and subsequently got tarred and feathered by the alt-right. Your little critique is just borrowed from Jeremiah Wright but you are too lazy to figure that out. You won't go there though because it's obvious that your motive is to score points and to confirm your biases.

Posted by: Kronos | Aug 14 2017 14:52 utc | 113

15 Charlotteville's counterprotesters were incredibly brave.

They basically won.

Oh, so brave, using a mob to win a heckler's veto.

Posted by: RudyM | Aug 14 2017 14:53 utc | 114


Liberals and Leftists are not the same thing. Liberals support this shit, leftists do not.

Posted by: Massinissa | Aug 14 2017 15:07 utc | 115

Both US parties cuddled Gadhafi frequently, and we still have people who hero worship Gadhafi like skinheads heiling Hitler. And now we have people wanting to cuddle Assad.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 14 2017 15:26 utc | 116

I'm not sure the leftist dumbfucks who have supported political violence, on this site and others, really understand what they are asking for. At the very least you are driving home the importance of preserving free speech in the United States, and if the Republicans are now the party of free speech, I guess I will have to continue supporting them (after voting Republican at the national level for the first time in this past presidential election).

Posted by: RudyM | Aug 14 2017 15:30 utc | 117

karlof1 @ 18

This piece at Common Dreams adds to the article you posted. Note the lack of agency in most of the terms used to report (as in "obscure") the car used as a weapon by one of the white supremacists. The somewhat neutral terms used in general. Ah, yes, to maintain their "objectivity" the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) will not use accurate terms.

However, now that Republican officials and pols are talking about homegrown terrorism, the MCM might begin to report what actually happened in clear language.

Did the headline writers not realize that people could see videos of a guy plowing into a car (to clear his path of attack?), backing up and moving at speed to strike people? Followed by a high speed reverse drive for the guy to try to escape. Oh, and as someone noted in a comment I recall, the airbags did not deploy...otherwise the driver might have been pinned in place for a while, but he wanted to escape to kill another day....

Posted by: jawbone | Aug 14 2017 16:19 utc | 118

"Liberal" in quotation marks may indicate fake liberal or fake leftist. Reagan the actor maligned liberals so effectively that people ran away from that label. Dubya made the Republican Party so unpopular that he holds the record for having had voter self-identification as Republican at an historic low. Congressional Republicans seeking election in 08 were using Democrat blue background color and frequently omitted the Republican label from their ads.

All Obama had to do was put a fork in the Republicans (instead he put them on committees) and enact a WPA style work program (instead, he made TBF banks whole, letting them foreclose, etc). The R Party was in bad shape in 2008, after having arranged the greatest pump and dump scheme in the FIRE sector on behalf of Goldman Sachs & Wall Street. The huge money was made on the short positions as the bubble burst. Lay the blame at the R Party's feet and they were done.

Now the D Party has crashed on the rocks.

I believe that a con game is played on us by the two parties.

As it turns out, neither party will do anything of value for common working people.

There is nothing liberal or leftist about the Clintons or Obama. They are warmongers. Same as Republicans. Nixon was a liberal by comparison.

People who call themselves liberal or leftist and believe that Obama and Hillary are the same are simply deluded MSM believers.

Posted by: fastfreddy | Aug 14 2017 16:46 utc | 119

You forget the flip side of the coin. Antifa violence has been going on a lot more than rightwing violence and, in fact, the armed militia at the most recent Charlottesville is a direct response to past Antifa violence against conservative protesters or rallies. In many early cases the rightwingers were caught flat-footed by the violence of the hard left. Worse still, many authorities in major cities (particularly California) are Antifa supporters so they let the Antifa violence go on without much response. At worst, Antifa thugs get wrist slaps and very little coverage in the press but some conservative responds or takes similar action and the entire universe piles on: the ADL, all the MSM, state and local leaders, national leaders...all see the slightest face slap by a rightwinger as Brownshirts come to Murica but turn a blind eye to hard lefty violence of Antifa (or they misattribute it to the right).

Here's a tip for ALL people, whether left or right, who go to protests or rallies...if you are not a full-on communist or radical anarchist, even if you are a true liberal, you WILL be labeled a "fascist" by Antifa and you WILL be likely to be on the receiving end of a sucker punch, pepper spray to the face, a thrown rock or brick, or struck by some Antifatard with a sock loaded with a bike lock. Come armed and prepared to exercise your inalienable right of self-defense.

Posted by: Praedor | Aug 14 2017 16:49 utc | 120

an unusual string of comments from 112 to 116... at least we can agree to disagree.. i want to know if i am disagreeing with one person, or 4?

Posted by: james | Aug 14 2017 16:49 utc | 121

@118 True but a big part of Liberalism is currently obsessed with race and gender politics. These have become the defining issues for many people. Democrats are seen as more liberal than Republicans in that context.

Posted by: dh | Aug 14 2017 16:52 utc | 122

True "white culture" is as valid to celebrate as black culture, asian culture, hispanic culture, native culture, etc. What is true "white culture"? Why all of Western culture! It was white Europeans that brought you democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, science, liberal political values (classic liberalism). Yet these are the very things the anti-whites are decrying! Feminists are praising Islam and Sharia(!!!!????), SJWs and BLM are decrying everything Western (and ALL males, but in particular, white males). They are all supremacists, every one of them. They are female supremacists demanding special dispensation and consideration (feminists) and discrimination against males. They are all-but-white-or-hetero supremacists (SJWs) decrying everything to do with heterosexuals, families, free speech (free speech is violence!), demanding special rights and protections for non-hetero, non-white, but especially non-males. BLM is right there with the SJWs but demanding special rights to a particular group (blacks). Commit an actual crime or pull a weapon? If you are black you must be given a pass. If a cop actually shoots a black person, no matter how gunned up and violent, it WILL spark violent protest and demands for dead cops.

The new left of millenials is a mishmash of supremacist movements for identities that are NOT white or male.

Posted by: Praedor | Aug 14 2017 16:58 utc | 123

ff @ 18 said:"As it turns out, neither party will do anything of value for common working people."

"There is nothing liberal or leftist about the Clintons or Obama. They are warmongers. Same as Republicans. Nixon was a liberal by comparison."
Yep, with the stipulation that both Clintons and Obama were pro-corporate warmongers..

Left & Right are BS terms nowdays. You're either "we the people" advocates, or you're "corporate" advocates in today's world.

Posted by: ben | Aug 14 2017 17:23 utc | 124

you're right on, b. The New York Times reports that the likely source of the rocket engines on those North Korean missiles is Ukraine. bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Posted by: mischi | Aug 14 2017 17:27 utc | 125

A couple ways I see this going; There is an ongoing effort to delegitimize the grievances and points made by the "alt right" by lumping all of them up with the fascist white supremacy folks, I believe this segment is very small comparatively speaking for a country of 250 million, very angry, ignorant and fearful: easily manipulated into serving as the new terrorists. Thus when for instance someone is pointing out the Russian hacking fiasco is a fairy tale or bringing up the evidence that points to Seth Rich probably being the leaker the argument can be shut down by saying not only "are you some kind of Putin lover?" but also "are you on the side of those Nazis?" Perhaps it goes so broad as to include when someone advocates for non interventionism or against wars of aggression in favor of putting the needs of people in this country first or even just for the right to free speech and the right to assemble peacefully = "What are you one of those racist alt right guys than?"
The under lying meme here is the same as with all terrorism as a tool of the state, to create an emotionally potent idea of an enemy that the uninformed will paint a much larger swath of people with by vague association. IE: Islamic terrorists carry out some savage attack on civilians in the US= the average MSM viewer just knows that our military activities in Muslim countries has something to do with the terrible bloody attack he saw over and again on the news. Thus the uninformed emotionally manipulated person is acquiescent to the US attacking Iraq, Libya, Syria..etc. Never mind that all of those governments actively fought against the Sunni Salifist Al Qaeda elements in their own countries and that we backed these terror groups to destroy these countries ahead of regime change.
Right now I see a concerted effort to associate every body who questions the Russia-phobic Neo Con agenda, or won't give up free speech, or won't give up guns, wants to stop the Israeli control of our government, wants to end the illegal surveillance state..etc as being associated some how with white suprematist terrorism like this murder by vehicle. I find it interesting that the type of murder weapon is exact same as the multiple recent Islamic terror events in Paris and London. Also I find it interesting that this Richard Spencer guy was all over CNN and MSNBC giving the Nazi salute to a crowd of about 15 people right after Trumps election, they even gave him an interview, yet he oddly seems to have nothing to say at all. Now there's this spectacle and he's the poster boy once again. This meme seems to be related to Oklahoma City and Waco in a way, as well as the ongoing effort to limit free speech and shut down "dangerous parts of the web" as well as the effort to make criticism or boycotting of Israel as a felony, if you don't accept these things you must be on the side of the racists terrorists.

Posted by: Jason | Aug 14 2017 18:10 utc | 126

The vile and despicable US foreign policy has come home.
The Empire of Insanity will take the US to the graveyard of empires.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Aug 14 2017 18:15 utc | 127

Drone footage (Youtube link to RT channel) of the car-ramming shows the (small? medium?) crowd gathered at that one intersection.

How many people altogether were counter-protesting? How did that one car make it to that one intersection? How did that group end up at that one intersection? What routes did the two take to come together? ( —or, who routed them together?)

Posted by: Charles R | Aug 14 2017 18:35 utc | 128

@115, Bashar al-Assad is the finest man alive. He could have run away years ago, especially having witnessed Ghadafi's fate, but he has stayed with his people. He's a new Saladin. You can't carry his speculum.

Posted by: ruralito | Aug 14 2017 18:41 utc | 129

@123, there is only one culture; it's called Staying Alive.

Posted by: ruralito | Aug 14 2017 18:51 utc | 130

This Charlottesville spectacle was "social engineering" on steroids. The pawns on both sides might be sincere but the social engineers at the top are giddy as hell. I said a year ago Obama was "false hope" for the under class left. Today, we have Trump as "false hope" for the underclass right. It really is a grotesque balancing act by the ruling elites to divert attention away from themselves. Economics rule the street. The divide between rich and poor continues to widen. History repeats itself.

Posted by: Peter | Aug 14 2017 19:20 utc | 131

This action was aimed to undermine Trump's base. The only news you hear is about rightists' violence, or confrontation at white power rally, or murder at alt-right klan rally. Trump's initial statement was not strong enough and he needed to call it the way MSM was reporting it. By him now doing so, Trump has alienated the largest block of his supporters, I.e. white male conservative and disenfranchised. Without white male conservative base, Trump is finished and he knows it. So don't "they". He will be easier to control but I wonder what the reaction will be by those voters who actually believed he'd drain the swamp. This is not over and the US has a total eclipse in a week across its entire heartland. Bad moon arising?

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Aug 14 2017 19:36 utc | 132


The only clean solution would be to make the Klu Klux Klan illegal as the murderous hate mongers they are.

Same to armed militias that are better armed than the police.

I am speaking as a European. I understand that the American constitution insists on the freedom of speech and the right of citizens to bear arms.

In Europe the insistence tends to be that the state has the monopoly of power.

So the American constitution expects its citizens to be able to fight things out.

I doubt very much that in any country of the world you can sue the police for not having protected you.

And yes, counter protesters were very brave with this type of constitution to do what they did.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 14 2017 20:28 utc | 133

132 I do hope that the considerable number of US citizens who voted for Trump feel no sympathies for the Ku Klux Klan or armed militias.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 14 2017 20:29 utc | 134

b raises some interesting issues about how our craven politicians - no matter which "party" they profess to be identify with - have long/always supported fascist/nazi/white supremacist regimes across the globe. Done mainly for the personal beneift our powerful Oligarchs calling the shots. While there is probably no direct correlation between what happened in Ukraine, the same types of issues are cropping up in the United States... mainly while our Oligarchs turn a blind eye and allow the situation to deteriorate... to their personal financial gain and power.

The KKK and other White Supremacy/Militia movements have long been curried a modicum of favor with by the PTB, albeit they were mostly relegated to the shadows and treated as kinda/sorta buffoons. Of course, some of these groups have always presented a level of danger to society - especially to certain segments of our society - but such realities were always swept under the carpet or treated as if the so-called "left" was being unreasonable or something.

In 2009, the USA Dept of Homeland Security issued a report about the very real threat of rightwing extremists: (don't like DailyKos, but it summarizes what happened). Amid an uproar by the usual suspects on the right, this report was Deep Sixed. And the PTB pretty much turned a blind eye to a lot of violent activity engendered by various rightwing extremist groups, such as the occupation of Malheur Wildlife Sanctuary in OR, where most or all of those violent white men got "off" without much in the way of fines or jail time.

Just imagine a bunch of black men taking over a wildlife refuge with guns. Just imagine the same number of black men, armed with guns and tiki torches marching down the streets of Charlottesville? Wonder what would've happened then??

Sure, speculation, but you be the judge.

When the right attacked ACORN with a clearly faked video by a known confabulist, what happened? The D party rolled over, including the Barackstar, and ACORN was shut down forever. What did ACORN mostly do? Register minorities to vote, that's what.

In the comments here, I keep seeing the notion of "both sides are equally responsible." Well I'd argue: No.

I think US citizens are dumbed down and don't know what's going on. So they're led by the nose by crap media to believe bullshite, hype and spin.

I agree that in this country, we are reaping the whirlwind of our International Policies, but I'd posit that it's also about the Oligarchs very definitely pitting groups of citizens against one another, as usual. This is nothing new, and the idea that these demos would grow more violent has been predicted by many.

I, for one, question Who the Eff these AntiFa/Anarchist people are. I suppose I could look them up online and perhaps there would be some enlightenment there. Speaking mostly off the cuff without much evidence to support my conjecture, they mostly appear to me to similar to the outside agitators that regularly showed up at Anti-Viet Nam War marches and demos. So I wonder who - really - is behind organizing and encouraging both groups.

I know of NO ONE who is part of some AntiFa/Anarchist group. Well, so what? But really? I'm pretty active, and I don't anyone who knows anyone in these groups.

When there have been violent, but not deadly, actions by these AntiFa/Anarchist people at demos such as those on campuses opposing that pedophile, Milos Y, or even Ann Coulter - what I read time and again is the students on the campuses saying they don't know who those people are, where they came from and that they - the students - supported the "right" of Milo or Ann Coulter to speak on their campus. But! They did want to demonstrate - peacefully - against what they stand for.

So then I hear and read how the so-called "left" is allegedly "more violent" than the right. I call crap on that and say we're being hoodwinked once again. I'd posit that it's likely that most AntiFa/Anarchists are put up to the task by outside forces interested in seeing citizens pitted violently against one another.

I'd posit that most so-called "lefties" in the USA - typically those who vote for the stupid Democratic party but also maybe those looking for other candidates to support - are not that violent. Unless I'm missing something (doubtful), we don't have leftwing Militias. We don't have leftwing groups - other than these new to me groups calling themselves AntiFa - that are similarly bigoted and racist and sexist like the KKK, StormFront and the like.

I don't really know what came down in Charlottesville. It's quite possible it was some sort of false flag or planned PsyOp. It's equally possible that the young man who drove the car into that group of people was impressionable and got riled up by our incendiary media and took it upon himself to do what he did on his own.

Let's face it. Media in the USA SUCKS. It's incendiary, inflamatory, lying, attacking, bullshit. It encourages citizens to feel pit against one another, and most US citizens don't have the wherewithall to see it. They just react.

It's also worthwhile to note that most of those white men carrying tiki torches look pretty well dressed to me, and apparently (I don't have the links to prove it, so take with a grain of salt) many came from pretty far away to attend this rally. These are not "economically anxious" white men with no jobs. As is the case with most Trump voters, they tend to be middle class or better, but Trump opened the Pandora's box of racism and gave these people their "freedom" to be complete bigoted, sexist, homophobic, racist assholes.

Yeah sure. Some of their precious "way of life" is going away, albeit what I've actually READ some of the noobs saying they are supposedly "losing" never happened. They want some 1950s TV show to come back. It never happened that way, and it's never going to happen again.

Neither party gives one iota of a stuff about those white people who really are poor and suffering. But mostly those people are so downtrodden and poor that they're not the ones showing up at these rallies.

So I'd go easy on the hype and hyperbole about who's really doing what, and who's really responsible.

I completely decry how Trump has unleashed the KKK, StormFront and similar onto the national stage and somehow made them seem "reasonable" and that we should all just go along to get along with them. NO. Emphatically NO. This is wrong and it's crap to suggest it.

If conservatives want to voice their opionions, then let them do so. But let's call a spade, a spade. The KKK should have no legitimacy as some kind of governing body in our country. And whomever these AntiFa/Anarchist people are - they should not have any legitimacy either.

But realize that the majority of so-called "leftist" people who go to demonstrations and protests of this nature are NOT AntiFa, and they should not be lumped in with them.

JMHO, of course.

Posted by: RUKidding | Aug 14 2017 21:24 utc | 135

jawbone @118--

Thanks for posting that other item. Other's have added input about the media's manipulation and other aspects about the riot. I sometimes think most people behave the way my Alzheimer's afflicted mother does by ignoring the facts confronting them while continuing with their mindless activity. And like an Alzheimer's patient, they must be closely watched lest their behavior endanger their safety.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2017 21:47 utc | 136

"Jefferson’s fight to extend slavery into Missouri also influenced his last notable personal achievement, the founding of the University of Virginia. He saw the establishment of a first-rate educational institution in Charlottesville, Virginia, as an important antidote to elite Northern schools influencing the Southern aristocracy with ideas that could undermine what Jefferson dubbed “Missourism,” or the right of all states carved from the Louisiana Territories to practice slavery."
- Robert Parry, 'Thomas Jefferson: America’s Founding Sociopath'

As the realtors say, location location location.

Posted by: drj | Aug 14 2017 22:04 utc | 137

b is right to call out the hypocrisy, even though most ‘libruls’ would never ‘get it.’ I was called cray-cray by the few US friends / acquaintance I have in 2004 because I told them that how the US was acting in Iraq towards the civilian population beyond war -> shock and awe would return home.

They considered the ‘war’ legitimate because tyranny, 9/11, bloody dictator, WMD, threat to the US, and so on, but army goons breaking into homes terrifying ppl and stealing money and raping girls - cutting down trees, scotching electricity and water infrastructure - even preventing families from going to clinics, shooting ppl in the streets - that is a level of personal, non-sanitized, violence that they could not accept (as to them war was bombing a bunch of tyrants to instore democracy, or more in the past the glorious heroes of WW2, as portrayed in film..)

They either did not believe me - difficult as I have a lot of credit and there were plenty of reports… - or allowed that I was perhaps ‘xagerating and goin’ too far’, and that a few bad apples in war situations will always exist. They could not admit that State violence (a ‘just’ war in their eyes) bleeds over in every nook and cranny, and breeds ..well I’ll leave it there. Skipping the topic of what might be a ‘just’ war, as the invasion of Iraq could never qualify, in whatever schema.

Yes, this is different from internal US ppl-faction violence e.g. “antifa against white nationalists”, both of which labels are totally misleading, yet it is similar, as built on myths, lies, misunderstandings, manipulated by the PTB and media.

(USA.) Neo-lib interventionists are amongst the most vicious on this earth, drape themselves in ‘anti-racist and pro-feminine stance’ or whatever varied gout du jour thingie, while the traditionalist are forced to contest, and adopt a socially conservative position, as well as some threatening shows of force, a different brand of viciousness, which rest on male solidarity and ‘guts’, weapons, necessary rejection of the ‘other’, etc..

This kind of cr*p is in favor of the PTB…who is served really? The distract with divide-to-rule template can be invoked, but imho it is deeper than that, there is something I can’t quite describe for now.

Pol history of the US.. There is a certain self-congratulatory complaisance on both sides, which re-inforces authoritariansim and ‘leadership’ roles in all camps..

(see also Copeland 25, I was going to mention such, and blues 78 as I made things simple)

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 14 2017 22:09 utc | 138

Charlottsville probably a hoax. 3 minutes in he does charlottesville. He makes some good points.

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 14 2017 22:30 utc | 139

Apparently the Moon wants to accept his superficial analysis. Likely most of these people had ancestors who fought on the confederate side, whom were not slave owners. Likely most of the torch protesters are nationalist.It's also likely the deep state or George Soros supplied the some of the people carrying Nazi symbols.

Interesting enough most of counter-protesters appeared to be from Jewish Supremacist and globalist George Soros

The Mayor of the Town, Michael Singer is Jewish, and it's been widely reported he told the police to stand down. Soros funded protesters arrived armed with urine filled balloons, and other implements.

The driver of the Car, Alex Field was also reported by the NYT to be Jewish, his mothers maiden name is Lea Bloom. Apparently his father died when he was young and he was raised by her. It would not be the first time a
Mossad patsy was used to foment violence.

Perhaps in irony, the woman killed Heather Heyer, also has a Jewish last name.

I see nothing racist about historical statues remaining but the Soros lead communist gang will deface them all.

Posted by: stevec | Aug 14 2017 22:44 utc | 140

@91 Operate.

The third Reich was hardly socialist. The socialist part was added to the party moniker as an afterthought to gain sheeple votes, as Socialism was the envogue ism at the time in Europe. To suggest otherwise is obfuscation of reality. Its similar to leaving the INTRINSIC connection between state and corp out of the definition of fascism. IMHO

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 14 2017 22:46 utc | 141

I'm curious. You know that the media & State Dept are controlled enough to give us many lies about Syria, and about Russia. You may even know that President Eisenhower's farewell speech about the "military/industrial complex" was censored in the second edition of some newspapers; it simply didn't appear.

Now, given the fact that some group has the power to ban a speech given by a sitting President, don't you think that you should consider that this same group has the power to ban or to invent any story, according to their interests. SIX companies control most media including the wire services. You watched them lie about 9-11.

So, I'm curious: Why don't you read or watch every story/alleged incident with the mindset "This is what Rockefeller, Soros, the whole NWO gang want me to believe today. This is what they want me to be thinking about, rather than their real objectives and activities." ?

Do you believe that altho they HAVE the power they've shown in the above examples that they choose NOT to use it when it would help them? When a small group hope to rule a numerous world, what could be better than disinfo? Counterintelligence is the necessary tactic of a force which is so massively outnumbered, no?

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 14 2017 23:00 utc | 142

Jackrabbit, thanks for sticking up for free speech. Here's a little satire written by Scott Creighton on the WillyLoman site:

"Violence is justified only by those with the sanctioned message, the right message, the holy message. The message that must not be questioned, whatsoever that message is today or may be tomorrow. And our violence to silence their heresy is not violence. It is never violence and must not be mentioned or acknowledged as violence. It is the correction of intemperate children in need of guidance and nothing more.


Posted by: Penelope | Aug 14 2017 23:07 utc | 143

The lazy MSM had the video of the car hitting the people (over and over) but not much else like this from Greg Palast.

Posted by: Curtis | Aug 15 2017 0:31 utc | 144

Jackrabbit | Aug 14, 2017 9:14:32 AM | 107


Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 15 2017 1:09 utc | 145

Praedor | Aug 14, 2017 12:58:25 PM | 123

There is no white culture; just as there is no Asian culture.
There is, however a British, French, German, etc., culture.
There are many cultures in Asia as well.
Racist much?

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 15 2017 1:19 utc | 146

I'm not gonna buy into the pick a side and fight for it bullshit which media otlets have been promoting around this, other than to point out that there is a fundimental difference in the way that left and right philosophies are developed. The starting point of leftist promulgation is that we are all humans in this existence together and we need to solve problems together to the advantage of all. The right has a different take - sure scapegoating of minority races and cultures by wannabe leaders from the centre rightwards is just politicking, albeit ugly politicking. but I have yet to see, hear, meet, a rightist 'spokeperson' who doesn't develop his/her philosophy on the basis of a group (99% of the time the group that the spokesperson identifies with) being either innately, or by dint of inherited 'rights', superior to all other races/cultures/identities.

And that is reality - the stumbling block for promoters of rightist philosophies is that claim to being entitled to more than anyone else. Rightists can only look forward to qualified support since their ideas depend upon the scapegoating of some 'other' and that creates a group of citizens who will never join up since they are the maligned 'other'.
Rightist Japanese still believe they are entitled to more respect, more money and more assistance from society than the fourth generation Japanese of Korean heritage whose antecedants were abducted to be slaves 100 years ago - neve rmind that some of the real indigenous people of Japan are treated as second class citizens. People such as the Burakumin.

The right wing government of India preaches hatred of Muslims, Parsis, Sikhs even the peaceful Jainist people whose philosophy is predicated on the sanctity of all life. And of course the Dalits have been copping it real bad forever, have found things awful since Modi's mob of rightwing Hindu nasties took over from the Nehru gang of neoliberal assholes. (The leader of Congress Party and founder of the Ghandi political dynasty was Jawaharlal Nehru, who organised for his upper class daughter Indira to marry a bourgeois schoolteacher with the family name of Gandhi on the grounds that India's then undereducated masses would likely assume that a family name of Gandhi was somehow associated with the Mahatma).

Benefiting from the oppression of others has always been a driving force behind the aims of rightist theory.
This goes to the core of why, when push comes to shove, rich assholes back right wing populist movements against leftist popular movements, they know that rightists will always shoot themselves in the foot by creating conflict and dissension rather than solidarity and focus, then taking down everbody's enemy the greedies, who have been leeching off decent people of whatever race, culture, or belief since the year dot.

As for the nazis and their pseudo socialist pose, that was an essential attribute of any popular based political movement in Germany the home of socialism during the great european war interregnum of 1918 to 1939.

Some of the Nazi Party's earliest recruits were committed socialists who rose to high position in the party people such as the openly gay socialist Ernst Röhm who had the proletarian connections to build the street fighting arm, the Sturmabteilung or SA from scratch.
By 1934 the Nazi Party's socialist ideals had become an embarrassment to Hitler, he had the proletariat onside now he need to get the greedy aristos behind him and they didn't want to know about the leader of a political movement whose ideals claimed socialist roots.
Therefore on June 30 1934 operation hummingbird AKA "The Night of the Long Knives" kicked off.

Any nazi party member with the slightest taint of leftist ideas was butchered.
Not just Röhm and the brownshirts,leading members of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party (NSDAP), along with its figurehead, Gregor Strasser, were also killed.

From that night onwards any claims that nazis were socialist were finally and thoroughly disproven.

Socialism isn't a name that can be hung on any old idea to create a caring vibe, socialism is a way of life practised by socialists in their day to day existence - that is how it grown. Not by making speeches or ticking a box in a voting booth, or by pointing a gun, but by living a socialist life and thereby 'infecting' those around with the noble ideal - because socialism is an outwards flow of ideas through action, there is nothing 'top down' about it.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Aug 15 2017 3:57 utc | 147

@147 debs.. thanks.. good post and i agree fully with your last paragraph...obviously you don't live in the usa where socialism has been demonized up the yin yang for what seems like forever..

Posted by: james | Aug 15 2017 4:31 utc | 148

Actually, there is no German culture. There are Bavarians and Frisians and anything in between and West and East. Plus upper class and low lifes. Very distinct subcultures.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 4:33 utc | 149

somebody | Aug 15, 2017 12:33:31 AM | 149

Okay, but you did get my point, yes?

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 15 2017 4:44 utc | 150

of course. In this country, some multicultural people came up with the "slur" "Bio-German". This is not a description of culture.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 4:52 utc | 151

This here is a good analysis of the US constitutional contradiction between freedom of speech and the right to carry arms.

There is no free speech when you are threatened with a gun.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 5:37 utc | 152

Those Charlottesville "people" whatever we may wrongly name them, white supremacists, fascist, alt right, concerned citizen or whatever, etc., are exactly "we the people" the US constitution, a deeply racist, segregationist, exclusionist, belligerent document enshrining imperial conquest and slavery into US law [with only slight modification today] is talking about, leaving the rest, including white poor and landless with a status of animals that must be domesticated or eradicated.

These are true Americans and more outrageous they are, more psychotic, more anti-intellectual they are, more backward, more unreal they are, more bullying they are,.. they are more American, more truly devoted to the very foundations of this country namely fear, loathing, intimidation, murder and mayhem, not that foundation of any other country is more noble but they in most part brag less about their moral superiority of non-existing american democracy.

These are true and original "US Americans". We, who oppose them [are strangers to the American psyche of anti-humanism nurtured within 228 years old US power elite that created solid institutional foundations of apartheid and discrimination [POTUS, SCOTUS CONGRESS etc.,] enshrining a form of slavery of all, submission and infantile dependency, within the law and brick and mortar institutions of social , cultural and political oppression and totalitarianism making existence of any true honest opposition to this inhumane abhorrent US regime impossible despite a zoo of opposition phonies aimed at subversion of true dissent among scarce Americans who want to get rid of this inhumane behemoth called US.

One of those controlled opposition which in fact is truly worshiping this abhorrent US regime as suppose conduit to "progressive solutions" as much as white supremacists as suppose conduit to "nationalistic solutions" is AntiFa with nice slogans and subverting mission while a part of over all Identity politics of division.

AntiFa is nothing but a thinly disguised concoction of dead corpse of Dems party's, Resistance" BS. AntiFa is a CIA backed outfit that attack anyone who question Deep State under guise of attacking meaningless oligarchic puppet, run by the same puppet masters as Hillary and whole farcical theater on Congress, SCOTUS and WH.

What disqualifies AntiFa as genuine antifascists [who blame people] is that they attack those who, are vulnerable, hurting economically, often being manipulated by Trump/reps agents to believe that Trump stands for anything they care about like american jobs and not for his brothers oligarchs' global profit and power.

If AntiFa were genuine antifascists they would have read a history book how fascists took over power.

It it was not because they manipulated people to vote for them, their weird, mystic, inhumane ideas of identity politics (anti- (Jews, Roma, LGBT, communists, cripple) etc.,) but because fascists "won" backing of Christian establishment (DNVP, at the time of Hitler assuming post of Chancellor NSDAP won about 9% of vote only) and full support of oligarchic elites and ger,man industrialists and aristocrats against growing power of socialist left, and Hitler was chosen as the candidate of [much lesser evil] the establishment to destroy the left in Germany. But Hitler refused to be a puppet of German elites and had plan of his own.

Being Antifa mean being against this entire (Reps and Dems) abhorrent US regime of war and death that want to divide us along phony divisions along identity politics and by that suppress the class politics that unites us..

The promoted by the establishment and oligarchic elite under phony leftists and less often rightwing label so-called identity politics or single issue politics like Progressive/Conservative divide, feminism, animal welfare, environmerntalism is all politics of division mostly a class division within all identity groups, that enables emerging of new, subservient to rulers, elites within each identity group to usurp a voice of the rest of their group. In that way society sliced and diced into razor thin conflicted pieces overall is weak and manageable by the establishment elites.

So Black elite usurps voice of all blacks, Hispanic elite usurps voice of all Latinos, white-supremacist elite usurps voice of all whites, religious elites usurp voice of all religious people, trade union elites usurp voice of all workers, native American casino elites usurp voice of all Indians, progressive elite usurps voice of all progressives citizenry, LBGT elite usurps voice of all LGBT community, NRA elites usurps voice of all gun owners, environmental activists elites usurps voice of all people who care about environment, animal right activists elites usurp voice of all animal lovers etc., while a “rainbow coalition” of ruling oligarchic elite usurps voice of us all.

The sole purpose of all of it is so poor and working people have no voice at all, insidiously gagged by their own kin, brothers and sisters who sold out cheaply for a silver coin to ruling oligarchic class as a repugnant slave master surrogate within their own flash and blood communities.

It is all aimed to continue conducting clandestine vicious and brutal class war between defenseless working people [lied to by all politicians] and armed to their teeth oligarchic class under guise of cruel joke of a slogan “we are all together in it”, meaning in the corporate entity of the USA.

Posted by: Kalen | Aug 15 2017 6:07 utc | 153


plus 1.

One correction
"But Hitler refused to be a puppet of German elites and had plan of his own."

No, German industrialists, militarists and aristocrats wanted the war. They just made the same mistake they had made in the First World War - they gave absolute power of their authoritarian system to a guy who was crazy.

Another correction
Identity politics don't come from an evil plan to divide and rule. Or rather, the divide and rule has much older roots. If you enslave people based on the color of their skin they have to fight back based on the color of their skin.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 6:57 utc | 154

@110 the oligarchs working both sides is indeed my bet. Narrative control is aided by scripted events, and real always works better than staged, but even dupes must be primed for the script somehow.

"Soros did it" is just a joke, of course. The KKK/supremacist groups have long been infiltrated by the feds, and it shouldn't have been difficult to expand existing influence networks into the newer movements. No need to start from scratch. In the early years of the KKK, many of its members would also have belonged to Masonic lodges, so there is that to think about, too.

Thanks for the image links.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 15 2017 8:23 utc | 155

Vandalizing statues, liberals show their rabid hate again:
Protesters topple Confederate statue in Durham, North Carolina

Posted by: Anon | Aug 15 2017 12:13 utc | 156


No, the clenched fist is a old as 1917 - it means solidarity. Probably older.

Torchlight marches have lots of traditions, most of them are close to Nazi. Probably because the fire makes people feel irrational and it projects danger and fear.

It is very likely that the FBI has informers in all groups. It is also likely that all groups have rich supporters.

Hey, some people in the US have a private army.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 12:34 utc | 157


Identity politics don't come from an evil plan to divide and rule.

Identity politics didn't ORIGINATE from an evil plan but in recent years is being used in narfarious/evil ways.

Your "correction" warps Kalen's point. These groups are essentially controlled because their leadership is installed by, or otherwise connected to, the establishment.

I sense, given your earlier comments, that you are trying to protect the left. But tyranny can come from either extreme. And when elites use both sides against the middle, there is a sort of 'soft tyranny' that grinds on people and allows elite adventurism to flourish.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 15 2017 12:59 utc | 158

Secret services use anybody who is psychologically rife for using weapons, commit murderous suicide whatever, the ideology does not matter.

They have used political islam, anarchists, left radicals, fascists whatever.

Your analyisis would mean that the US deep state intends to destabilize the US splitting Republicans, endangering business, internal security.

I don't believe so. I agree with b. that what the US is doing abroad is coming home. In lots of ways, drugs, political Islam, right wing extremism, color revolution.

But yes, of course, I am on the side of counterprotesters. They got a right of freedom of speech, too, remember.

So if a racist, potentially murderous militia (they talk about it, can you really assume they do not intend to do it?) descends on your town, you make sure they know that they are not welcome.

What the alt-right is trying to do now (and what Trump was trying before the images came out), and what you are trying by saying "extremes against the middle", is to create a wrong equivalency.

The counterprotesters were the decent middle against a force that should have been outlawed.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 14:01 utc | 159

@153 Kalen, you irrationally construe people into your personal bias; insisting that "American" can only be defined by your limited list of negative traits. You reduce US people and culture to one-dimensional cartoon villains.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 15 2017 14:49 utc | 160

RT has a good article comparing Maidan and Charlottesville that exposes the propagandistic media biases made at both,

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 15 2017 15:07 utc | 161

Penelope 142 you are right to be wary. Anyway the incident (man driving car and deliberately killing / somehow a bad reaction to being hit with a baseball bat / or whatever took place in CharlotteV.) is worthy of attention because of the media storm.

It appears that this is, say, the first ‘serious’ incident of ‘attacks’ between the ‘antifa’ (“Resist!” eh what?), and the ‘fascists’ aka racists, white nationalists, etc. as touted insistently in the MSM.

The Tea Party was left alone by Dems, just as Occupy Wall Street was not bothered by the ‘fascists’ or so the history claims, surely there were incidents but these were not reported or only glancingly so, considered trivial, etc.

Killing by CAR moreover is not new and there have been plenty of occasions in ’17. Was this one a traffic accident panic provoked in peculiar conditions, manslaughter, deliberate murder, what? Without +++ investigation one can’t judge.

The media spin is 100% distilled on a unique narrative line - one faction of valiant US citz. is ‘resisting’, ‘fighting’, ‘opposing’ another, down to street battles, reportedly. (Apportioning guilt here is a fool’s game.)

Imho, the Dems and varied anti-Trump forces, for now, my description, Force Noble (neo-cons, neo-libs, humanit, NGOs, BLM, the MSM, some Corps goups, ITs, Silicon Valley, Pharma, part of MIC, more, much more…one needs a long list…) have instrumentalised the ‘base’ of the upper/middle class edjicated whites (yes, whites of course most are social-status aspiring only; many are not white skinned -> class not race) to ‘oppose’ Trump, by extension to ‘resist’ and ‘fight against’ Trumpers, or those labelled as such.

What the quarrels are really about underground is couched in layers of unanalysed mystery, or even unknown and most likely non-existent ... hurled insults suffice. These blind protestors are fooled with crappy MSM narratives and aren’t even paid (some are, another story.) Because Force Noble feels endangered they will scrape around for anything disruptive, including citizen ‘revolt’.. it creates chaos, lamentations, grief and harm and obfuscates real issues, great, as then one can call for peace, —> submission and control, etc.

The ‘Trump oppo’ is running a color-revolution script. Which signals the breakdown of the previous Gvmt/control/status quo.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 15 2017 15:08 utc | 162

Can't resist to put it here, where many will explain me it is a hoax

Posted by: Mina | Aug 15 2017 16:17 utc | 163

And it didn't just happen recently:

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Aug 15 2017 16:53 utc | 164

@164 bob in portland.. good article.. thanks.. even though it is from march 2014, it details a deep connection with these nazi groups involved in ukraine back to the usa... i would be curious how the ukrainian community here in canada connects with it, but i would probably have to ask the writer who is interviewed in that article directly..

Posted by: james | Aug 15 2017 19:02 utc | 165

@165 Don't Ukrainian fascists hate Russians mostly? The Charlotteville guys sure hate liberals but no mention of Russia (or Syria, Iraq, Venezuela etc). They may even be isolationists when in comes to US foreign policy.

Posted by: dh | Aug 15 2017 19:14 utc | 166

Mina @163--

Oh yes, there's definitely several small peat fires burning in close proximity to each other. Here's a local media story about those fires and the other 37 that've broken out this year so far,

Here's a link to a screenshot I took from the Sentinel website,,B03,B02&maxcc=20&gain=1&gamma=1&time=2015-01-01|2017-08-15&cloudCorrection=none&atmFilter=&showDates=false&evalscript=

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 15 2017 19:19 utc | 167

@dh, i was just responding to the article which made a connection between supporting nazis and the republican party.. they focused on supporting a group from ukraine from quite a ways back, so i was interested in knowing if there might be a connection to the ukraine community in canada.. it is really off topic to the charlotteville, or only on topic peripherally...

Posted by: james | Aug 15 2017 19:25 utc | 168

@168 Sorry about that. I thought it was a follow up to the RT article karlofi posted at 161 and bob's subsequent 164..

I totally get the hypocrisy thing BTW (Maidan Nazis good, Charlotteville Nazis bad) which I think was b's original point.

Posted by: dh | Aug 15 2017 19:35 utc | 169

@162 Noirette it was interesting to watch how quickly social media blew up with "Nazi" headlines and posts, soon salted with "Trump/Nazi" messaging. But my feeling is that this really is more of a tactical strike against the alt-right, and strategic effects are just bonuses. As far as apportioning guilt, it seems pretty clear Antifa and the like deliberately adopted street violence as a campaign strategy, although elements of the alt-right have vowed to respond in kind.

Speaking of jokes, the notion that Antifa is a "decent middle" made me laugh. What wilful ignorance.

On a related note, from Zero Hedge today: DOJ Demands 1.3 Million IP Addresses Of Visitors To Antifa Website Used To Coordinate Riots

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 15 2017 20:20 utc | 170

Ukrainian fascists believe that Ukraine should belong to genetically Ukrainian, Ukrainian speaking people and not Poles, Hungarians or Russians.

This supremacy crowd believe black people are the problem There are no black people in Ukraine.

I have been fascinated by the inconsistency of the "Fascist international" for quite some time.

They even admire Israelis because of Israeli racism though they hate Jews.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 15, 2017 4:20:14 PM | 170
Charlottesville voted 80 percent Democrat. These people will have been the bulk of the protesters. Black lives matter is pretty mainstream, and from what could be seen on video they are pretty mixed. I saw no image where they showed guns.
Compare to Black Panthers.
To make extremists out of these people is trying to move the scales.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 15 2017 20:57 utc | 171

@169 dh.. no problem! i understand!

Posted by: james | Aug 15 2017 21:02 utc | 172

Antifas, BLM, and neo-Nazis deserve each other. The rest of us don't deserve any of them.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 15 2017 22:24 utc | 173

@172 so you are saying that normal Democrats met a hitherto peaceful protest with baseball bats? That normal Democrats swung at this guy's car with baseball bats, before he had actually done anything? That normal Democrats wearing normal ski masks swinging normal bicycle chains in order to normally beat up Trump supporters in Berkeley, nothing extreme about that? That normal Democrats burned cars, looted stores, and generally wrecked their own communities during the BLM protests? Heck, just what kind of people do you think normal Democrats are?

Or are you saying these extreme actions committed by the Soros-funded Antifa and BLM are not extreme at all, but normal?

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 15 2017 22:45 utc | 174

@174 jim.. makes no sense you asking me! maybe you have the number - 172 post - wrong..

Posted by: james | Aug 15 2017 22:52 utc | 175

@175 james yes, that was directed at somebody 171, please excuse me. I must have been distracted by the humorous idea that Antifa isn't extreme.

Posted by: Jim S | Aug 15 2017 23:06 utc | 176

Jim S, james, others

Somebody has drunk the Kool-Aid or has other reason for what Jim termed "wilful ignorance".

As I wrote @107, it seems clear that the authorities hoped and expected that Antifa's actions would create an unsafe condition so that the march/protest by Alt-right could be cancelled.

Somebody seems happy to drive into the ditch on the left to avoid the pole on the right. The rest of us are wary of both hazards.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 15 2017 23:35 utc | 177

The whole Charlotteville thing is a fake. The guy who organized the "right" meet is an old Soros prostitute. The crashed helicopter apparently got so hot every last shard of metal burned up because there is no wreakage there. There had been an ad put out earlier for Charlottesville area "crisis actors." It's all total bullshit, just like all the other false flags that Soros & co. are behind.

Posted by: Tony B. | Aug 16 2017 2:30 utc | 178

Well, this here is a comment from the FBI

German: One of the things I’m concerned with the way this is being discussed is this idea that there’s violence on both sides or on all sides. As if somehow the groups who are protesting the neo-Nazis and defending their communities are somehow in the same boat. I would never argue, number one, I’m against all forms of violence and think it’s counter-productive to use in any sense, but certainly self-defense is very different from offensive violence. Even to the extent that there are people in the counter-protesting crowd who are going there to get in a fight, there’s no history of violence from these groups that comes anywhere near what the Ku Klux Klan or Nazi groups or these other far right groups have engaged in. These things are not equal. They’re not anywhere close to equal, and we have to keep that in mind.

TCB: Do you have any policy suggestions or ideas for how to deal with this?

German: As far as what to do going forward, in the 50s and 60s we had a situation where state governments were not protecting the rights of their citizens. The federal government had to come in and intervene and make sure that constitutional rights were being protected. I think we have the opposite situation here. I think it’s incumbent upon state and local government now to take control, to make sure that the rights of their citizens are being protected.

I talk to a lot of people and a lot of communities about policies at the FBI that I’m concerned about, and they feel like, well, we can’t lobby the FBI, we can’t go touch them, they’re this mysterious force. Well, your state and local police are there in your community, and you can go down and ask your local police chief what’s going on with these protests, and why the police response is so different in Charlottesville and in Sacramento and Berkeley and Portland than it was at Standing Rock or Ferguson or the Occupy movement. Get the documents out and have city and state officials hold their own departments responsible so we can start making sure all communities are protected.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 16 2017 7:32 utc | 179

Noirette it is obvious that the "United Right" is rallying in places where there is a strong Democrat majority i.e. where they would meet most resistance.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 16 2017 9:17 utc | 180

The rats are leaving the sinking ship

Other top business leaders also spoke out in response to the violence in Charlottesville.

“I support Ken Frazier’s decision. I’m thankful we have business leaders such as Ken to remind America of its better angels,” said Hewlett Packard Enterprises CEO Meg Whitman, who ran for governor of California as a Republican in 2010.

Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein tweeted: “Lincoln: ‘A house divided against itself cannot stand.’ Isolate those who try to separate us. No equivalence w/ those who bring us together.”

Richard Trumka, president of the largest federation of US labor unions, the AFL-CIO, questioned the council’s effectiveness and said the group was mulling leaving.

“The AFL-CIO has unequivocally denounced the actions of bigoted domestic terrorists in Charlottesville and called on the president to do the same,” Trumka said in a statement.

Several executives from top US companies have previously stepped down from a number of presidential advisory councils in protest to Trump policies.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 16 2017 9:27 utc | 181

add 181

actually, the above link is a funny case as Veterans Today quotes Tasnim which is an Iranian news agency.

Iranians influencing the US :-))

So now we have Democrats against Russia and Trumpsters against Iran and vice versa.

The contradictions of the empire did come home.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 16 2017 11:12 utc | 182

Alt Right marches this weekend cancelled

They do not have enough followers to back the KKK. So yes, they lost.

They sure have enough people feeling bad about identity politics, but not the extremists needed for a "united right".

Posted by: somebody | Aug 16 2017 13:46 utc | 183


Your comments always redirect to how bad the racists and fascists are.

You have shown yourself to be Antifa because you don't care about anything except sticking it to the racists/fascists.

Whether you like it or not, it is not illegal to have unpopular thoughts or beliefs. It is illegal to act on those thoughts in a way that harms or discriminates against others.

In earlier comments you have disparaged an American system that could allow for Nazis to march. But the respect for the difference between thoughts and actions, and the universal application of law is shared by most democratic nations. Here is a German judge that wouldn't convict based on 'thought crime'. The judge convicted on the lesser charge of defrauding the Islamic State instead.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2017 15:33 utc | 184

The altright is similar to the muslim brotherhood in egypt, and the liberal elites in US are using the same method against Trump as used by Egyptian elites (with advise from CIA color revolutionists) to take down the popularly elected president Mohamed Morsi

Posted by: Thegenius | Aug 16 2017 15:57 utc | 185

"On the morning of 1 July, anti-Morsi protesters ransacked the national headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo. Protesters threw objects at windows and looted the building, making off with office equipment and documents. The health ministry confirmed the deaths of eight people who had been killed in clashes around the headquarters in Mokattam."

Posted by: thegenius | Aug 16 2017 16:07 utc | 186

"Four Ministers also resigned on the same day: Tourism Minister Hisham Zazou (who previously offered to resign a few months ago after Morsi appointed an Islamist linked to the group that attacked tourists as governor of Luxor), Communication and IT Minister Atef Helmi, State Minister for Legal and Parliamentary Affairs Hatem Bagato and State Minister for Environmental Affairs Khaled Abdel Aal,[384] leaving the government with members of the Freedom and Justice Party.

On 2 July Foreign Minister Mohamed Kamel Amr resigned as well in support of the anti-government protesters."

Posted by: thegenius | Aug 16 2017 16:09 utc | 187

" Instead of purging the most entrenched elements of Mubarak’s centers of power, namely, the army, the intelligence services, the security apparatus, and the police, he naïvely thought that he could appease them. He was lulled into believing that he had earned their loyalty. In fact, these agencies, along with the judiciary, the public and private secular media outlets, as well as most of the bureaucracy, represented the interests of the “deep state,” a decades-old web of corruption and special interests entrenched within the state’s institutions."

"In November 2012, Prince Bandar presented two detailed plans to the Americans through the CIA. Plan A was a quick plot to topple Morsi in early December while Plan B was a long term plan that involved two tracks. One track was a series of destabilizing protests that would culminate in Morsi’s ouster, while another track included uniting the opposition to form one coalition to defeat the MB at the polls if the first track failed. While the CIA was fully aware of the plan it neither endorsed nor objected to it because the Obama administration, playing both sides, was also pursuing dialogue with the Morsi government."

Posted by: thegenius | Aug 16 2017 16:19 utc | 188

"By mid-June, the campaign was in full force. Many political science professors and public intellectuals from the opposition including Waheed Abdelmagid and Hasan Naf’ah, as well as constitutional law professors such as Noor Farahat and Husam Issa, were arguing across several television networks that the call for “early presidential elections” was not only an acceptable mechanism available in all democracies, but that it had been used many times before. As examples, they cited Nixon’s resignation in 1974, France’s Charles de Gaulle in 1969, Argentina’s Raúl Alfonsín in 1989, and Brazil’s Fernando Collor de Mello in 1992.

The intellectual dishonesty of these liberal elites is appalling, since none of the examples they cited were actual calls for “early presidential elections,” let alone the deposing of a democratically elected president by a military coup. "

Posted by: thegenius | Aug 16 2017 16:32 utc | 189

Throughout the month of June the media onslaught on Morsi’s government not only continued to blame it for all the ills afflicting Egyptian society, but also intensified as three particular problems were highlighted: the deterioration in security, frequent power outages that lasted hours and affected not only residential but also industrial areas, and shortages of fuel, causing hours long lines at gas stations.

Even before a single demonstrator went to Tahrir, Okaz, a Saudi daily newspaper preemptively published the details of the scenario that unfolded three days later when the military took over. The following day, Al-Ahram, an official newspaper and Egypt’s largest circulated publication, had the headline “Either Resign or Be Overthrown.” This report foretold in frightening details how the events would unfold, including the military ultimatum, the overthrow of Morsi, the arrest of the MB leaders, and the suspension of the constitution.

on July 1, the U.S. adminstration showed its true colors as National Security Advisor Susan Rice told Morsi’s foreign policy advisor, Essam al-Haddad, that it was over: either Morsi should resign or he would be overthrown.

Posted by: thegenius | Aug 16 2017 16:38 utc | 190

BRF @ 112, Thank you for understanding that whenever people begin to identify their oppressors the manipulation to turn them against each other increases.
A new element I've heard 3X recently is the actual decrying on mainstream radio of "Wall Street oligarchs who are running things behind the scenes." This is always followed by silliness of presenting Trump as our savior.
However, the very fact of using this ploy wd seem to indicate that we are approaching some critical mass in those we are explicitly aware of the Deep State.

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 16 2017 22:22 utc | 191

Peter @ 131, Yes, it was social engineering-- and probably also a hoax, complete w actors and stuntmen. And when, for heaven's sake do police EVER allow competing demonstrators to approach each other? I'm sure there were real people there, but the incident itself and much of the "fighting" was pure theatre I think.

stevec @140, Thanks for thinking. Most people get so wound up in their emotions that they are forever manipulated by the media-- even while they KNOW the media is controlled by six companies whose leading board members are oligarchs all.

jackrabbit @158, You got it, Baby.

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 16 2017 22:22 utc | 192

"The whole Charlotteville thing is a fake. The guy who organized the "right" meet is an old Soros prostitute. The crashed helicopter apparently got so hot every last shard of metal burned up because there is no wreakage there. There had been an ad put out earlier for Charlottesville area "crisis actors." It's all total bullshit, just like all the other false flags that Soros & co. are behind."

Posted by: Tony B. | Aug 15, 2017 10:30:12 PM | 178
Thankyou, Tony B. It baffles me how easily people are directed by the media. Most are arguing about how to handle Nazi demonstrations, etc-- exactly as directed by the media.
Or, like Democracy Now, ginning up Black vs White hatred. Why oh why can't they see it?

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 16 2017 22:23 utc | 193

Antifas, BLM, and neo-Nazis deserve each other. The rest of us don't deserve any of them. Thirdeye at 173.

In a way. Yet, they have all been isolated, quartered into camps, segregated one from the other ideologically (as none of them has any political or decisionary power to speak of) manipulated and ‘dumbed down.’ Many ppl’s only succor or in-groupy-feelings comes from these ‘ersatz’ - partly chanelled and run by internet gurus and bots - groups. Not that they can count on their brethren for shelter, livelihood, or money, only internet sympathy, as the solidarity aspect has gone AWOL.

Everything is done to keep the political-economical, off the scene, and all concentrated on sex-orientation, gender identity, ethnic divisions, etc.

A simple solution for statues, which provides one OK full time job. The statue is shrouded with screening curtains. Ppl who walk by or come there can choose to have the curtains lifted, provided they seem sincere and stick around to see the statue. The park / museum municipal employee thus does his/her job, Ta-da, the figure is revealed. (Good to hire someone with punch and presence, snazzily dressed and with a loud voice..) Then closed off again as it might ‘offend’ others. In this way, seeing or sighting this statue is reduced to trivial BS - as everyone knows what the statue is and what it looks like (or can see on the intertubes) :) One can dream.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 17 2017 17:10 utc | 194


Even to the extent that there are people in the counter-protesting crowd who are going there to get in a fight, there’s no history of violence from these groups that comes anywhere near what the Ku Klux Klan or Nazi groups or these other far right groups have engaged in. These things are not equal. They’re not anywhere close to equal, and we have to keep that in mind.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Since the late 1960s the preponderance of political violence has been from the left. The antifa mini-riot tactic is a logical outgrowth of the SDS "trashings" and their organized "Days of Rage" riot in Chicago during October 1969. Then there were the Weather Underground bombings during the 1970s. The Black Panther Party mostly postured with guns, but was responsible for one ambush against Oakland police officers that got Bobby Hutton killed and Eldridge Cleaver on the lam. They backed off from that sort of thing but later used beatings, threats, arson, and at least one murder against those they came into conflict with while they were striving for mainstream respectability. The far right has bred lone wolf attacks such as bombings of women's health clinics, the 1984 San Ysidro Massacre of 1984, and of course the Murrah Federal Building bombing in 1995, but organized political violence has largely been the province of the left. But if non-organized political violence is figured into the equation, we would have to consider the wave of race riots during the late 1960s as such non-organized violence.

The militia movement, while doing a dangerous dance with weapons and ideology, knows better than to cross the line into outright attacks. And the authorities are not shy about violently suppressing them a la Ruby Ridge. Maybe the militias heed the message.

More recently, the tactic of violently suppressing free speech has become routine for the left on college campuses. Organized violence of the sort directed against the Trump campaign from the left, which caused them to cancel their Chicago event, is unprecedented in American politics since the Reconstruction. The right is doing nothing equivalent. And Black Lives Matter has definitely spawned a wave of violence that culminated in the Dallas police shootings.

Condemnation of violence from the left has been the exception rather than the rule and excusing or denying it has become routine. The frogfaced Mayor of Berkeley Jesse Arreguin responded to the suppression of free speech and riot in Berkeley this year by condemning the targets of the left wing violence. 'Twas ever thus. Mainstream liberals started their long slide with their failure to forcefully condemn the race riots of the 1960s, culminating in their role as BLM apologists at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. It is possible for someone with a record of left violence such as Bill Ayers to attain "respectability" among liberal ideologues, euphemistically referring to their shenanigans as "anti-war activism," while efforts are made to destroy the careers and personal lives of those who publicly express nonviolently conservative "wrongthink."

Meanwhile, we've seen a wave of hate crime hoaxes that get media attention when claimed but are debunked with much less fanfare. Bogus claims of right wing violence have become big business for the Southern Poverty Law Center and similar groups.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 17 2017 18:19 utc | 195


I'd like to qualify my previous comment as to who doesn't deserve them. Those who refuse to condemn them deserve them. The racist right gets condemned by everybody else but the racist left is embraced by mainstream liberals.

In RE: historically-rooted-monuments-that-would-never-be-built-today, the elegant solution would be historical designation with an explanatory plaque at each site.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 17 2017 18:27 utc | 196

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