Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 12, 2017

Open Thread 2017-29

News & views ...

Posted by b on July 12, 2017 at 18:56 UTC | Permalink


(Had planned for a longer post today but found that the thesis I had is not yet sound enough. It needs more research. Sorry.)

Posted by: b | Jul 12 2017 18:59 utc | 1

This piece on Afghanistan's ethnic geography and its relevance to Kabul City may be of interest to some readers:

"The most difficult issue to discuss about Afghanistan’s future is that of ethnic groups, particularly their distribution relevance to political power. Blindly ignoring it has been widespread among the foreign providers of funds for the country’s security and reconstruction. Their actions resemble that of land developers near the San Andreas Fault, who hope that an anticipated cataclysmic earthquake will occur after they develop and sell the properties....On the other hand, nearly all Afghans will agree that the capital city of their homeland, and of their country, is Kabul. Its importance has a practical meaning and cannot be overemphasized in this heavily-centralized country. All relevant decisions, political and military, originate in the capital. Kabul is Afghanistan’s microcosm, its functional node, and in that regard the country’s Gordian Knot. It ties everything together preventing change in the status quo without its permission."
More at

Posted by: 47 | Jul 12 2017 19:18 utc | 2

Remember the Maine!

Remember the Maine!

Remember the Maine!

is the meme that comes to my mind with the anti Korean/Russian/Iranian hysteria. The MSM is bent on raising cane with "enemies" and eventually the public will demand war. And there shall be war. Except that one may know how they start but nobody can predict what their outcome will be.

Those that will survive will be those away from civilization centers that can extract basic living from their natural surroundings. The very same MSM that foment the next war will be their own victims.

These MSM are getting the crowds into a lynch mob frenzy. Soon the voice of reason will be drowned and any opposition will be crushed by the steamroller of induced mass fury.

Yet, nobody seems to be able to stop it.

The only way to stop this descent into the abyss would be to close all TVs, Radios and Newspapers and social media for a long time. Maybe then, we would stand a chance of getting back to our senses.

Will anybody do it? I doubt it.

Posted by: CarlD | Jul 12 2017 19:24 utc | 3

@ 47: Thanks for the link. Here's a pictorial of Afghanistan before the empire decided it wanted its'resources.;_ylt=AwrBT_3bd2ZZA.IArBRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybHVoajNmBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjQyNDVfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=afghanistan+1970&fr=yfp-t-s

Posted by: ben | Jul 12 2017 19:31 utc | 4

Sorry, I've ruined this thread with my stupidity..

Posted by: ben | Jul 12 2017 19:33 utc | 5

For those seeking a break from the current Soap Opera called Russiagate, Monthly Review has published a special edition, Revolution and Counterrevolution, 1917-2017, although not yet available in its entirety online, Some will find JB Foster's lead essay ties into the current distraction; it certainly provides a differing perspective for its analysis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12 2017 19:33 utc | 6

bad post, ben. You broke the right border by an overlong URL on only the fourth post.

By the way, Afghanistan wasn't really like that in 1970. I went there two years before, in 1968, and it wasn't filled with smiling schoolgirls in short skirts. Tha

Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 12 2017 19:36 utc | 7

If you want to see more films about how jolly Afghanistan was in the 1950s, watch the beginning of Adam Curtis' 2015 documentary Bitter Lake. The URL I had for it has had it deleted, but you can watch it on the BBC i-player. Only if you're not in UK, you have to spoof a location there, as non-UK people aren't allowed. Spoofing does work in that case.

In general, Afghanistan was more medieval then than now, and pretty well every woman was veiled.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 12 2017 19:47 utc | 9

@ 7: Right, the pictures are all staged and faked. Here's more on Afghanistan..:)

Posted by: ben | Jul 12 2017 19:48 utc | 10

CarlD @3--

You propose having a Dictator stop the Oligarchy? Wasn't that sorta what Trump promised to do by draining the swamp?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12 2017 20:03 utc | 11

It's very instructive to compare the treatment of Lula in Brasil with that of Temer. Lula was just convicted of corruption and sentenced to nine years in prison.


Meanwhile, Temer continues to serve as President no matter how much evidence piles up indicating his total corruption and criminal nature.

Lula would win the next election, but the US-backed "Team Coup" will not allow any democratic process to halt their looting of the country.

Posted by: WorldBLee | Jul 12 2017 20:06 utc | 12

1. Ralph Peters unhinged on Tucker Carlson while discussing Syria/Russia, 12 minutes of fun but I could only watch it once. Neocon lunatics are not used to being challenged. Carlson's calm demeanor made Peters look even more deranged because of his inappropriate responses.

2. Dances with Bears discovers the 'traitor clause' in the new sanctions bill.
It will punish Russian Oligarchs who are patriots while rewarding those who support dissident groups (I wonder if there is a Putin assassination bonus).

"(A) An identification of the most significant senior foreign political figures and oligarchs in the Russian Federation, as determined by their closeness to the Russian regime and their net worth. ... (B) An assessment of the relationship between individuals identified under subparagraph (A) and President Vladimir Putin or other members of the Russian ruling elite. ... (5) The potential impacts of imposing secondary sanctions with respect to Russian oligarchs, Russian state-owned enterprises, and Russian parastatal entities, including impacts on the entities themselves and on the economy of the Russian Federation, as well as on the economies of the United States and allies of the United States.”

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 12 2017 20:39 utc | 13

re 10

The Afghan mineral wealth is old hat too. Been known for years. It's just too difficult to get out, especially in the highly unstable political conditions.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 12 2017 20:57 utc | 14

Documentation and physical evidence: Diplomatic flights are being used to arm terrorists.

Posted by: Liveload | Jul 12 2017 21:11 utc | 15

Can't see there being a war against North Korea, if one was to start the 12 million population of Seoul would need to be evacuated, if, in the unlikely event that happened, war might follow. A war against Iran is also unlikely, Saudi Arabia and Israel would fight to the last American serviceman, but Iran is far too strong, and getting stronger, plus they have the backing of Russia. Those 3 aircraftcarriers off North Korea several weeks ago was just a show of willy waving. As with the evacuation of Seoul, all the US fleet in and around the Gulf would need to sail to safer areas, outside the range of the formidable Iranian missiles. Europe would not be onside either.

Posted by: harrylaw | Jul 12 2017 21:37 utc | 16

karlof1 @ 6 referenced John Bellamy Foster's "Revolution and Counterrevolution, 1917–2017. It's definitely worth checking out. These are the last two paragraphs from the opening:

Today, a hundred years after the Russian Revolution and a century-and-a-half after [Marx's] Capital, conditions have changed. It would appear that the clock has been turned back, and the forces of global counterrevolution have triumphed. Most of the emancipatory movements that seemed to be gaining ground in the 1960s, primarily in the periphery, have been roundly defeated..

Nevertheless, the material contradictions of capitalist development—particularly in the form of the planetary ecological emergency—are in many ways more serious than ever before. Since the Great Financial Crisis of 2007–09 pulled the veil away, it is abundantly clear that the present phase of global monopoly-finance capital, with its unprecedented levels of inequality, its stagnation and instability, its civilization-destroying bellicosity, its destruction of the environment, and its new forms of political-economic reaction, threatens the future not only of this generation, but that of all generations—the very survival of humanity. As Eric Hobsbawm concluded in his history of the twentieth century, “the price of failure, that is to say, the alternative to a changed society, is darkness.”

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 12 2017 21:56 utc | 17

I found this incredibly insightful.

This has almost nothing to do w Trump.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 13 2017 0:36 utc | 18

Christian Chuba @ 13, What an interesting link. I spose everybody knows by now that the fake Syrian chemattack took place on the very day that EU approved Nord Stream II to bring Russian gas to Germany. It was predictable that it would be approved, thus allowing preparation of fake attack.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 13 2017 1:37 utc | 19

harrylaw @16, of course we are assuming that TPTB care about killing people-- well, I spose they do care about the bad PR.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 13 2017 1:39 utc | 20

Excerpt from Wm Engdahl:
How does that all fit the demonization today by Trump and by Saudi Prince Salman of Iran as “the number one sponsor of terrorism” and Qatar as a backer of terrorism?

It all fits together when we realize that the current Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, son of Sheikh Hamad, being a more pragmatic sort and realizing that Qatari dreams of a pipeline through Aleppo into Turkey on to the EU had gone up in flames once Russia stepped into the Syrian war, quietly began talks with…Teheran.

This past spring, Qatar began talks with Teheran about finding a compromise on exploitation of the shared South Pars-North Dome gas field. Qatar lifted its moratorium on exploiting the field and carried out discussions with Iran over its joint development. Reportedly Qatar and Iran had come to an agreement on joint construction of a Qatar-Iranian gas pipeline from Iran to the Mediterranean or Turkey that will also carry Qatari gas to Europe. In exchange, Doha agreed to end its support for terrorism in Syria, a huge blow to the Trump-Saudi plans to balkanize a destroyed Syria and control the gas flows of the region.

To prevent that geopolitical catastrophe as Washington and Riyadh and Tel Aviv view it, the unholy three have teamed up to blame Iran and Qatar, ironically home to the Pentagon’s most important bases in the entire Middle East. Qatar they announced is the ‘Evil Knievel’ of world terrorism, with US Defense Secretary “Mad Dog” Mattis actually declaring that Iran was the world’s “biggest state sponsor of terrorism,” while Qatar’s crime allegedly was as key financier of Hamas, Al Qaeda and ISIS. That was maybe then. Today Qatar is pursuing other aims.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 13 2017 1:55 utc | 21

Penelope you are spreading fake news. The EU did not approve Nord Stream II, "the EU" is against it. Germany decided that it was not an EU but a Russian-German matter as the pipeline is between those countries only.

As a matter of fact "the EU" has managed to nix all Russian-European pipelines - except Nord Stream II. And they are trying.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 13 2017 2:17 utc | 22

add to 21
New US Russian sanctions target the financing of Nord Stream II.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 13 2017 2:22 utc | 23

@21 Somebody is spreading fake news?? Remove the log from your eye before criticising others for the splinter in their eyes.

FALSE::: Germany decided that it was not an EU but a Russian-German matter as the pipeline is between those countries only. ::::FALSE
NordStream 1 currently does, and NS2 will travel through Finnish, Swedish and Danish territorial waters. The Finns and Swedes have approved NS2 but the EU is currently putting heavy pressure on Denmark to nix NS2. The Pole Donald Tusk is leading this push by the EU because, because?? well Poland stands to lose some money if Russia can export even more NG to Germany while bypassing Poland.

FALSE::: As a matter of fact "the EU" has managed to nix all Russian-European pipelines - except Nord Stream II. And they are trying. :::FALSE The aforementioned NordStream 1 is a currently operating pipeline between Russia and Germany and as such is a Russia-European pipeline that the EU has not managed to nix.

Posted by: Køn | Jul 13 2017 3:15 utc | 24

Started reading Washington’s Long War on Syria recently and thought it might be of interest to MoA regulars. It traces the history of Syrian Ba’athism and the Syrian Arab Republic and contrasts its constitutionally mandated goals (in short: keeping Syria and its people united as a secular nation independent of imperialistic foreign powers, resisting imperialist and Zionist attempts to subjugate Arabs and offering a model of Arab unity based on nationhood rather than religion or subservience to an absolute monarch or dictator) to the United States’ stated goals of destroying independent Syria, and all other likeminded nations, and forcing them into a world order controlled by Washington and its sponsors.

The author raises an excellent point about democracy. In the West, democracy, as defined by the West, is a sacred cow that is unquestioningly assumed to be good and desirable in all countries at all times. Indeed, much of the rhetoric and propaganda designed to sell imperial wars to Western citizens is built on a foundation of bringing “democracy and freedom” to people living in nations ruled by ostensibly sadistic and egomaniacal Hitler clones. How many times have you heard critics or opponents of Western wars say “Well, [insert Hitler du jour’s name here] is no angel but this does not justify war, invasion and slaughter.” In other words they fetishize Western liberal democracy as much as the warmongers do. This is extremely shortsighted.

For a country on the DC/NATO hit list, adopting liberal democracy would be suicidal. It would let Western intelligence agencies step up their covert operations and make it much easier for them to fund and bribe domestic agitators, engineer and exploit sectarian resentment and otherwise undermine, and ultimately destroy, the state and the country. Freedom of expression/speech, the ability to start a political party challenging the government’s legitimacy and so forth , are detrimental to a country under relentless attack form powerful enemies seeking to destroy it.

There is why Washington is so fixated on “pro-democracy activists”, "citizen journalists” and dissidents of all stripes in countries it wants to dominate and why it orchestrates color “revolutions” in the name of “democracy” whenever feasible. An open society is only possible when people are in control of their destiny and free of seditious foreigners waging covert or overt war on their country. That said, Syria is not totally undemocratic as most people here already know. It is, for one thing, light years ahead of American client states Egypt and the KSA, GCC monarchies.

A very interesting read so far and I highly recommend it.

Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Jul 13 2017 4:32 utc | 25

Trump administration run by Zionists, for Zionists: Analyst -- PressTV -- 7/11/17
[When Wayne Madsen speaks, I listen]

Anyhow, I no longer believe that zionism has anything to do with "israel". They are outright Satanists. See:

Posted by: blues | Jul 13 2017 4:53 utc | 26

A very interesting read so far and I highly recommend it.
Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Jul 13, 2017 12:32:09 AM | 24

(Washington's Long War on Syria)

I agree. He's got a July 11 post up.
"The Myth of the Kurdish YPG's Moral Excellence"

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 13 2017 5:36 utc | 27

Chris Wray?

Another swamp creature Trump as stupidly saddled himself with?

Or in on Trump's 11D Chess Game that only certain people (like Trump) can see going on.

Personally, I really hope they do go hard after Trump Jnr. - this may be the best way to ensure Trump actually fights back properly.

Ie - Indicting Comey, Clinton, Podesta, Mills, Lynch etc. - the lot of them.

I imagine Trump's general thought process has been I'll go along just enough to get along, but god knows - if you start messing with my family - all bets are off and i'm coming after you all - ALL GUNS BLAZING!!!

Posted by: Julian | Jul 13 2017 6:17 utc | 28

@ Temporarily Sane #24

Although the West has adopted features of "democracy", our political constructs are based on electoral politics.

One pivotal feature of Western societies is excluded from the democratic process however: the monetary system.

The political construct:

1 arbitrarily and unilaterally bestowed ownership of the vehicle of exchange unto an un-elected entity

2 imposes said vehicle of exchange by law

3 arrogates unto itself the right to run perpetual fiscal deficits with thorough unaccountability

The outcome of this construct is arithmetical. The only variable is time but the result is arithmetical and it is works through the concentration of profit, thus the concentration of title.

"Democracy" in the West is a relative concept.

Posted by: guidoamm | Jul 13 2017 6:37 utc | 29

b - i look forward to your next post.. no hurry!!

@13 Christian Chuba.. the usa is fucked in the head... so of course sanctions must be ordered! i wish the usa could sanction themselves off the planet and do everyone else a favour..

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2017 7:02 utc | 30

Amerika is not a democracy. Last Novembers shit shower underlines this basic fact. That a country of over 300 million can wittle down to a simple binary choice between a turd sandwich and an orangutan! And then handing the reigns of power to the candidate that was unequivocally the least popular (lost the pop vote) for the second time in 20 years! The widespread voter disenfranchisement (normal democracies allow ex-cons to vote), the gerrymandering, the pathetic participation rates, the carte blanche for moneyed interests to flood the media with partisan messages and so on.

Syria does not rank amongst the most democratic countries of the world but it is a far sight more democratic than USA.

Posted by: Køn | Jul 13 2017 8:02 utc | 31

CIA controls Afghanistan to control OPIUM trade.
Same way the CIA murdered millions of people to control the whole of LATIN AMERICA to control the COCAINE trade.
Rothschild his desire to control all commodities being traded is DOLLARS is unlimited and he DOES NOT SHARE power. Like Sauron.
I am still looking forward to the complete and utter thermonuclear destruction of London!

Posted by: Thucydides | Jul 13 2017 8:04 utc | 32

Collapse of Complex Societies by Dr. Joseph Tainter

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2017 8:48 utc | 34

Penelope @ 18

thanks for that link. Catherine is always a good listen.

i just wish she'd go rogue(she also recognizes that the physics signature of the 'collapse' of the twin towers precludes the use of explosives),

but that's easy for me to say.

Posted by: john | Jul 13 2017 11:10 utc | 35

Posted by: Køn | Jul 13, 2017 4:02:19 AM | 30

Not really.

1) The US president is not all powerful. He gets quite a few problems from law, congress and the senate. Never mind the media.

2) Trump may be unpopular but Republicans are. They won congress plus the senate. If congress or senate republicans decide to impeach Trump then that's it.

3) Trump may be unpopular but his policies are not. Or there would be a lot more resistance in the US.

Actually the way the US presidency is turning into family affairs and reality shows, the best idea would be to officially convert it into a symbolic presidency the way British monarchy has been functioning for centuries.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 13 2017 12:07 utc | 36

Patrick Cockburn, "Counting the Dead in Mosul"

People in west Mosul say that the intensity of the bombardment from the air was out of all proportion to the number of Isis fighters on the ground Saad Amr, a volunteer medic, worked in both east and west Mosul during the nine-month siege. He says that “the airstrikes on east Mosul were fewer but more accurate, while on the west there were far more of them, but they were haphazard.”...

The sighting of a single sniper on a roof, would lead to a whole building being destroyed along with the families inside them. A sign that Isis was not present in any numbers is that, while there are bombed out buildings in every street, there are surprisingly few bullet holes in the walls from automatic rifles or machine guns. In cities like Homs in Syria today or Beirut during the civil war, wherever there had been street fighting of any intensity, walls were always pock-marked with bullet holes.

The article does say that the snipers would heard civilians into the buildings but counted on gratuitous use of coalition air power to increase civilian deaths. This rings true to me. According to most articles linked by wikipedia, 8,000 is a conservative estimate for the total number of civilian deaths in Mosul to defeat about 4,000 ISIS fighters.

I'm not going to rant and rave but I was very put off by the psychotic rantings of Col. Ralph Peters shouting about the criminal acts of the Russians and Assad in Syria, especially because he represents the mainstream of the U.S. Foreign Policy Establishment. No one has perfected bloodless urban warfare. The Syrians were able to liberate Aleppo with no more than 2,000 civilian deaths according to the rebel sympathizing SOHR. I am appalled by the information warriors, they dishonor my country. They may fool my fellow citizens but the people in the M.E. know the real score.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 13 2017 13:38 utc | 37

@Køn 30

America isn't a democracy because it was never envisioned as a democracy. The electoral college system pretty much ensures that. Moreover, given that wealthy Americans, multinational corporations, and foreign governments can contribute heavily to campaigns necessarily tilts the playing field such that it is really a contest of which monied interest can buy the election. You also have, seen this last election cycle in stark fashion, the Deep State working to see that their interests are represented over the people. None of this is democratic in the least. Thus, bringing up the popular vote (which, by the Constitution is irrelevant anyway) is a moot point. But if we examine the popular vote, this is merely another tool manipulated by the powerful interests. The popular vote is in no way transparent. Trump is finding this out since states will not disclose their voting data to him. We know non-citizens vote (we can discuss the merits of that, but by law they are not allowed); we know dead people vote; we know there are districts with more votes than people; we know that people are bused into locations to vote multiple times; we know the voting machines are manipulated; we know there is voter suppression. Both teams use a variety of tools to disenfranchise the citizens from having a vote that actually counts. So yes, Trump may have lost the popular vote, but he may well have won it. We literally have no way to tell without data on the cheating that was done by both sides. And no one is coming forward with that. Moreover, one of the reasons we have an electoral college in the US is to prevent the rural populations from being overwhelmed by the cities. In this case, the popular vote was largely swung in the direction of Clinton by California, the most populous state (and also the state with the highest number of non-citizen voters). Whatever we may think of the values of rural America, it is not fair to disenfranchise them because 15% of the country wants to live in one location. And since we have no dialogue in this country, we cannot come up with any sort of consensus between the 'fly-over country' and the cities. And speaking of California, in normal election cycles they have voter suppression simply because the elections are called before California has even closed the polls (and don't get me started on how states are called before it is humanly possible to actually count votes...). The entire system is rotten and corrupt and anti-democratic, and the popular vote is almost certainly a made up number. Just look at the sort of cretins that get lifetime membership in the Senate--those elections are essentially rubber-stamped. I am fairly certain that if Americans just protested an election, went into the voting booths and just submitted blank ballots, they'd still spit out a result at us.

Posted by: Mataman | Jul 13 2017 13:56 utc | 38


nice exposé.

I am fairly certain that if Americans just protested an election, went into the voting booths and just submitted blank ballots, they'd still spit out a result at us

the trick is to not vote by not registering to, by not entering the booth in the first place, like something like 90 million eligible voters already do.

Posted by: john | Jul 13 2017 14:44 utc | 39

@ Karlof1

I believe if a dictator is capable of gagging the MSM and other propaganda sources, let him do it.

In another vein,

In the US, foreign policy is presidential turf. It would appear, however, that the Senate and House are usurping Presidential prerogatives
when they author bills that impose a particular foreign policy on the Executive. For example, Obama could not bypass laws taken years
ago by Jesse Helms against Cuba and having the peculiarity of extraterritoriality. The POTUS is not able to lift sanctions on Iran because
capitol Hill is making sanctions into law. Visibly, these sanctions are taken for the benefit of Israel who is the instigator of these unconstitutional
measures, even to the detriment of the US itself.

This again is due to the Zionists having control of the minds through the Media and the social networks. Therefore, world stability cannot
coexist with the MSM. Just for the sake of raising the ratings, TV magnates would love to see wars galore. Randolph Hearst is reborn every
day with a new inducement to war.

It will reach a point when the only possible outcome to all these sanctions is the nuclear option.

The question is should the tail be obliterated or should the dog be euthanized?

Posted by: CarlD | Jul 13 2017 15:05 utc | 40

@25 blues

I think Zionism has plenty to do with Israel, but these are certainly different terms, entities and causes. I like Madsen too, and you must have read his backgrounder: The Dönmeh: The Middle East’s Most Whispered Secret (Part I)

Alison Weir shows how Zionism used the west to create Israel, and terrorized Jews across Europe (in part by using the Nazis) in order to scare them into moving to Israel. Her important book on this, Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel [Amazon link], also mentions that Rothschild was in at the founding of Zionism, so I surmise that Zionism itself is a tool of sorts for even more powerful interests at play.

I'm not an expert on any of this stuff, and have little stomach for it, or even deeper levels of the rabbit hole, but these two pieces offer a lot of data. Scraps I've picked up around the water cooler include that the true tribal affiliations at work here tie Saudi Arabia most intimately with Israel, and that closeness is beginning to show. Further, I gather that the only true Semites in the Middle East are the Palestinians. The so-called Jews appear to be Khazars, with a natural linkage to Ukraine. Completing the circle, the conquest of Crimea is said to be a long-term goal of Zionism as another settlement for Zionists, which may account for so much rage now, after Putin snatched it back out of danger at the last minute, and offered what Sheik Imran Hosein calls the first major defeat to Zionism in its more than 100 years of existence.

That's all I got.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 13 2017 15:33 utc | 41

Light relief .. / ..right margin broken..

Blackie Reveal !!

Nikki H. can testify, with a friend who shall be an anon source as in hush intelligence, that she knows that she
heard that Melania Trump who is Slovak or Slovene or like that, allied to Russia, really gets on with Putin regularly
walks a big white fluffy dog around Mar-el-Lago and soon the White House Gardens where there are historic trees
(etc. etc.)

Rumor has it Michelle Obama’s veggies plots will be destroyed mercilessly, Monsanto lobbied for that,
the Trumps agreed, as it left more room for шпион, Shpion, the beloved dog, to lollop about.

Shpion wears a secret transmitter to send information to the Kremlin, Wikileaks is managing the transmissions,
Assange is in control. Rumor hints that all the bodyguards and staff know ALL about this but are sworn to secrecy
by the President, as he is set on protecting Barron who has to grow up in a serene, calm atmosphere;
Barron loves Shpion, seeing him as a traitor would be shattering to his psyche.
Tiffany too is fond of the dog and though she is far off now the dog is a link to her father.

Jared and Ivanka are aware but at the moment they have more important matters to attend to.

Stay Tuned! :)

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 13 2017 15:38 utc | 42

Trump have travelled to France, Macron have earlier threatened Syria with attacks, and so have Trump, and what they will talk about is Syria. Will we see attacks on Syria coming days? weeks?

Posted by: Anon | Jul 13 2017 15:39 utc | 43


the origins of totalitarianism - Hannah Arendt

There is no reason to doubt Mr. Allan W. Dulles’ statement that Intelligence in this country has enjoyed since 1947 “a more influential position in our government than Intelligence enjoys in any other government of the world,’ nor is there any reason to believe that this influence has decreased since he made this statement in 1958. The deadly danger of “invisible government” to the institutions of “visible government” has often been pointed out; what is perhaps less well known is the intimate traditional connection between imperialist policies and rule by “invisible government” and secret agents.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 13 2017 15:41 utc | 44


Is BIG BROTHER JEW, watching you. If not, he and ONLY he, will be, by 2020, according to Brother Nathanael former Jew and now an Orthodox Christian :

How you will KNOW that JEWS RULE the World, by Brother Nathanael:

Then there is a small ray of GOOD NEWS- The REASON why CNN is collapsing : Parasites will suck the life out of their HOST, if they are not controlled, just as Natures Parasites suck the life out of Trees and even some unfortunate animals

Posted by: Freespirit | Jul 13 2017 15:41 utc | 45

Pepe Escobar updates us on the level of China's involvement in Syria's reconstruction as several major events just occurred, but he seems pessimistic regarding the level of peace Syria will attain once Daesh is defeated,

CarlD @39--

Thanks for your reply. Your point about Yellow Journalism is well taken. As for controlling what the Executive can accomplish regarding Foreign Policy, writing bills to control executive behavior in that arena is the only tool Congress has, and historically they've had very mixed results. For example, today's Neocons and Neoliberals want to ensure the impossibility of reenacting anything like the Neutrality Acts from the 1930s, which weren't very well written but did do a good job in restricting what FDR could do, and that's what 1947's National Security Act was meant to do, as well as adopting Military Keynesianism as economic doctrine. Obviously, longstanding propaganda from the Anti-Communist Crusade and the drive for Unipolar dominance effectively limits what changes in policy might occur. Earlier today, Mercouris wrote about this point, His conclusion is correct, IMO, but it's far from ideal.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 13 2017 15:43 utc | 46

@24 Temporarily Sane

I was forutunate to see Gowans on his book tour. He wrote one of the best articles on Syria that I have read:

The Revolutionary Distemper in Syria That Wasn’t

Posted by: Tobin Paz | Jul 13 2017 18:22 utc | 47

According to Zio-Jazeera, during the Trump-Micron love-in, Micron's Napoleon Complex caused him to propose a plan for unspecified diplomats to draw up a roadmap for Syria's future. Confirming, perhaps, that the French who voted for Micron as Warmonger-in-Chief, got stiffed more comprehensively than the Yankees who voted for Trump.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 13 2017 18:34 utc | 48

@47 hoarsewhisper... yeah - france is fucked.. i mentioned that a moment ago on the new thread..

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2017 18:48 utc | 49

Good backgrounder on what's driving American foreign policy in the Middle East:
Recall that the last major threat to the petrodollar system was Saddam Hussain dropping the dollar for the euro c.2001,
a move ridiculed by economists at first, but which then saw a 30% rise in the euro over the dollar. That was one of
several factors motivating the neocons and neolibs to launch a military assault and occupation of Iraq; WMDs had
nothing at all to do with it. Their fantasy involved using Iraq as America's oil tanker / aircraft carrier in the Middle East
to (1) break OPEC's oil market control and (2) run similar regime change operations against Iran and (3) break into
Central Asian oil across the 'stans on Russia's southern border, as well as (4) controlling all pipeline access routes to
Europe (i.e. regime change across eastern Europe's ex-Warsaw Pact partners. "Total world domination".

Hillary Clinton was frothing at the mouth to re-up this agenda, along with Borg State and corporate media actors. With the
shock election of Donald Trump, that's all gone to shit. It's kind of a trade-off - Donald Trump will likely screw over
the American domestic economy with his idiotic policies on energy, and he's back on board with NAFTA after Exxon
explained how its Mexico energy deals work (It's really more of an ExxonMobil administration than anything else, really).
But Hillary Clinton would have screwed the whole world, likely pushing the U.S. into direct military conflict with Russia.

So America, we've got to go back to work if we want to get paid, no more sitting on our arses watching the imperial
petrodollar tribute roll in as we get stupider and lazier. . . Classic imperial malaise, Byzantine corruption, we've got it bad.

Posted by: nonsense factory | Jul 13 2017 18:53 utc | 50

@ Hoarsewhisper #48

My bet: It must be Ambassador Araud ( he was at the UNSC before being sent to DC)and he has been on the Syria file since Sarko. Plus we have two 'mandarins" at Quai d'Orsay (very pro-American)

Posted by: Yul | Jul 13 2017 20:16 utc | 51

Syria and China Silk Road investment
...Take what happened this past Sunday in Beijing. The China-Arab Exchange Association
and the Syrian Embassy organized a Syria Day Expo crammed with hundreds of Chinese
specialists in infrastructure investment. It was a sort of mini-gathering of the
Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), billed as “The First Project Matchmaking
Fair for Syria Reconstruction”

And there will be serious follow-ups: a Syria Reconstruction Expo; the 59th Damascus
International Fair next month, where around 30 Arab and foreign nations will be
represented; and the China-Arab States Expo in Yinchuan, Ningxia Hui province, in September.

Qin Yong, deputy chairman of the China-Arab Exchange Association, announced that
Beijing plans to invest $2 billion in an industrial park in Syria for 150 Chinese companies....

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 13 2017 21:56 utc | 52

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 13, 2017 5:56:31 PM | 52
(China's growing influence on, participation in, and control of the World Economy)

Pure speculation; but China seems to be approaching a position which will oblige it to declare the USD to be a weaponised currency/plague to be avoided at any cost as a medium of exchange, if the world is to prosper peacefully for the common good.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 14 2017 5:45 utc | 53

Tucker Carlson takes on another hysterical anti-russian-trump democrat...that have no evidence at all for what he's claiming!

Posted by: Anonynous | Jul 14 2017 9:47 utc | 54

Hey b, I asked you for your address to send a contribution but I've been so busy with work, I haven't had a chance to take care of it.

It's on my list of things to do for this weekend though.

Sorry to have delayed it.

Posted by: mischi | Jul 14 2017 14:49 utc | 55

The Revolutionary Distemper in Syria That Wasn’t, by Gowans. (Tobin @ 47 recommended it.) Hmmm.

Much too long for what it offers, history is dragged in to little purpose, as it always impresses US citizens.

Pretends to be an ‘overview’.. It’s reliance on one article in Time! is mind-boggling.. plus quoting Friedman as an authority?

Yet, the section Socialist Syria is OK (minor quibbles no import) but it is a bit of a red herring.. a side bar.

The main and only point made is that Evil Muslims (Brotherhood, Al Q, terrorists, etc.) in conjunction with the USA are entirely responsible.

What about France? The EU, Merkel ? Big energy Cos? Goldman Sachs aka Banksters? Or even Russia (gets too complicated.)

The article is set in a USA-flat earth prism, as I call it.

The only salient topics are tribes, ethnicity, religion, who is in what gang, who is instigating violence against whom, etc.,
who is the Big Boss with Muscle - like a vaudeville skit, the stage is set and not questioned, beds, armchairs are stable fixtures.

Ignored is: the price/availability of proper food, energy/machines to do work, housing, education / sanitary, WATER! for agri,
is…essential for survival? (Much like in the US today, food, health care, schooling, etc. are of no interest except as dodgy cash-cows..)

Assad did ‘liberalise’ much (but in fine not banking which was a nail in his coffin.) Which sent many into despair …
deprived poverty…

The section in the paper that follows ‘drought?’ is ridiculous. Drought in Syria was a serious topic at the UN etc. from 2003
or even before on, Syria was requesting help, the circumstances were and are dire.

The economy and its links with global warming, water management, infrastr., the movement of population to the cities (> slums..), unrest -
not everyone does W demos with banners to be filmed by CNN! is left aside.

In some places, the abandonment of State authorities as they could no longer function, schools closed for ex., etc.,
territorial patches thus emptying out, etc.

Plus, the effect of US sanctions, recall,

Syria has been designated a State Sponsor of Terrorism since December 1979

and the sanctions from the EU have just been extended again, to june 2018.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 14 2017 15:39 utc | 56

News is that Russia plan to kick out US diplomats, close compounds in return for the same US move last year.
This would be a grave blunder for Russia, and is of course what the neocon msm, elites just want to happen to effectively block Russia/US talks/relations.

Posted by: Anonynous | Jul 14 2017 17:44 utc | 57

I do not see why that would be a blunder for Russia. Trump had more than enough time to fix that.
If you want to do something, you will find the way. If you don't, you will always find the excuse.
Words are cheap.

Posted by: hopehely | Jul 14 2017 18:02 utc | 58


Why wouldnt it be a blunder? How will it help the US/Russia relations at this point?

Posted by: Anonynous | Jul 14 2017 18:29 utc | 59

First lets just make sure that we both mean the same about blunder. Blunder means making mistake by being careless.
Now about the situation. As it stands, Russia is at loss. The US seized 2 her properties and expelled 30 Russian personnel.
If the US does not want to return the properties and take back Russian personnel, by reciprocal seizing US properties and expelling US personnel Russia will at least recuperate some of the loss. And it will show to the US that it did not appreciate the gesture from December.
About the relations damage, well if the US does not value good relations with Russia, no reason Russia should cherish it neither. If someone does not want to be friend with you, and it behaves badly to you, to hell with him.
So, I do not see the Russia makes mistake by retaliating. Rather, I see that Obama made mistake by doing it first. Trump did nothing to fix that, Russia gave him 6 months grace period. I wouldn't be so generous- 90 days max.

Posted by: hopehely | Jul 14 2017 19:28 utc | 60


Imho, that type of argument is childish and not realistic, 'you made a dumb move against me and now I going to do the same against you', thats not how real diplomacy should work, in fact Russia showed to be very mature by not responding to this bait obama made last year.
Good relations arent created just like that, it takes time, especially in these hysterical times on Russia/Trump..

Posted by: Anonynous | Jul 14 2017 20:31 utc | 61

- The war in Afghanistan can not be won. The goal is supposedly to defeat the afghan Taliban. But there's a problem. The US occupation force in Afghanistan needs (A LOT OF) supplies that must be transported by road into Afghanistan. But the US military doesn't control enough roads in Afghanistan. And to get those supplies into the country the US needs to pay off/bribe those same warlords/Taliban. The moment the US army starts to attack the Taliban/warlords those supply lines will be severed/cut. Leaving the US army "hanging out to dry".


Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 15 2017 21:53 utc | 62

- Gareth Porter:

Obama was very reluctant to get involved in the war in Syria. But he "buckled" under the pressure of the Golf states and the CIA. But he wasn't willing to allow US made weapons to be send to the rebels in Syria. David Petraeus (head of the CIA) came up with the plan to ship weapons from Khadaffi's Libya to the rebels in Syria.
- After a while the Saudis also started to buy weapons from countries in Eastern Europe and from countries that belonged to the Soviet Union (Russia ???).


Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 15 2017 22:28 utc | 63

- Trump is hinting at abandoning the US military base in Qatar ??????????????

Does this mean war between the State Department and Pentagon on the one hand and the White House on the other hand ? This is something the "Deep State" doesn't like. It also could increase the possibility of an inpeachment of Trump. Some voices/people in the US have a new name for Trump: "Buffoon".
- But when Trump is impeached then Mike Pence will become president. OMG & Ouch.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 15 2017 23:36 utc | 64

An interesting article in RT on some hacked US Department of State files.

Files in pastebin here
"Perhaps you know that the U.S. State Department has a direct bearing on the agenda formation not only at home but throughout the world.
Now you can make sure it's true. Let me show you the correspondence between the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency Robert P. Otto and his colleagues, CIA officers and other intelligence agencies, as well as representatives of mainstream media, NGOs, international funds and think tanks.
With the respect for privacy I've deleted his correspondence with his wife and relatives. The rest of emails will give evidence of who is responsible for different information campaigns, the so-called mythmaking and essentially engaged in the promotion of "American values" throughout the world."

The address is, which I take as Kim Dotcom?
Nothing about it at Kim Dotcom twitter acc
Curiosity got the better of me and I downloaded the first file, but have no idea how to open it.
Each time I try a "save" box appears?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 1:34 utc | 65

About EU and Nord Stream pipelines: pipelines are regulated by EU in a very politicized way, BUT what is EU? Does poor little Germany have any influence over that wicked behemoth? It so happens that it does. EU works like Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in old days: rules have to be decided by consensus, and that works only when intimidation works. Germany is the largest net contributor to the budget of EU, and it can veto the union's budget and thus nix the subsidies for developing the poor regions, including Poland and the Baltics. The result is that when Germany needs a pipeline, it is OK, but if Italy or Greece would like to have one, nope. Similarly with Finns, Swedes and Danes protesting the pipeline. They could protest effectively, but they are dominated by the Germans, a bit like Australia, New Zealand and Canada is dominated by USA -- in part, it is a matter of common culture.

Re: The war in Afghanistan can not be won. The goal is supposedly to defeat the afghan Taliban. But there's a problem. The US occupation force in Afghanistan needs (A LOT OF) supplies that must be transported by road into Afghanistan. But the US military doesn't control enough roads in Afghanistan. Really?

For the amount of money wasted in Afghanistan, airlift is not a huge problem. It is even not that problematic to get permissions from Turkmenistan to fly over (Russia has a de facto veto there, I guess, but they do not care), and normally it is not problematic to fly over Pakistan. Even roads are not that bad. The main problem seems to be that Afghan government is severely dysfunctional and the countryside is mired in abject poverty. This led to the popularity of Taliban even in regions were Taliban was hated before American-led intervention, like Uzbek-speaking parts of the northern Afghanistan. The disfunctionality has some cultural-historical reasons, but a large part of it is the huge cultural distance - they are hated by Westerners who work with them and they hate those Westerners.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 16 2017 2:09 utc | 66

@Piotr Berman:

- I would strongly suggest to listen to the podcast before posting any reply.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 16 2017 18:22 utc | 67

You got pulled into a Baxter Dmitri hoax regarding Haiti---the person was subpoenaed for his own corruption, and had no ties to Clinton that are known.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Jul 16 2017 21:47 utc | 68

Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 15, 2017 7:36:25 PM | 64

Yep and Tillerson says UAE hacked Qatari media.

They are playing good cop bad cop extracting protection money from the gulf.

In other news Israel has nixed the Syrian ceasefire agreed by Putin and Trump.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 17 2017 0:17 utc | 69

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 15, 2017 10:09:04 PM | 66

Germany is not all powerful in the EU. The US have used "new Europe" versus "old Europe" ie Germany and France since the Iraq war.

Poland got a US base (that means money) plus is promised a LNG terminal (with Croatia) to become an "energy hub" distributing gas to Eastern Europe in competition with Russian gas. In the case of the EU the president of the European Council - Tusk - exerts pressure to nix Nord Stream II. Germany's position is that offshore business is not EU business. Denmark and Sweden are now under a lot of pressure to refuse the project.

In the end it is very likely that Nord Stream II will be built and South Stream or Turkish Stream, too. But it will have split the EU.

Not that Nord Stream is needed for the split. Trump allying with the present Polish government is enough - this here is Anne Applebaum - and this time she is correct.

I also think William Engdahl here is right - including gas being the reason for the US engineered Saudi - Qatari spat

Posted by: somebody | Jul 17 2017 0:49 utc | 70

This info is not from a horrible Nazi Hollycaust denier, but a member of the Knesset!

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 18 2017 16:52 utc | 71

@45 you're a fool playing into the Zionists' hands whether you know it or not. They love the anti-Djew; it gives them nourishment.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 18 2017 17:03 utc | 72

Quite impressive Russia Deploys Terminator-2 in Syria: Unique Weapon with no Analogues in the World

Posted by: ProPeace | Jul 19 2017 2:29 utc | 73

Thucydides @32, You're certainly right about the US motive of drugs in its Afghani and other foreign policy. Just like the British Empire, they just can't find enough money to fill all their totalitarian needs.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 20 2017 1:11 utc | 74

John @35, Interesting that Catherine says the 9-11 collapse signature not consistent w explosives. She clearly thinks it was an arranged event, so I wonder if she subscribes to a small nuke or what?

Btw her Lars Schall interview is funny & interesting. Lars Schall often has high quality programming not found elsewhere, usu financial.

Posted by: Penelope | Jul 20 2017 1:24 utc | 75

@Penelope Some say The "Jewish" Conspiracy is British Imperialism

Posted by: ProPeace | Jul 20 2017 3:27 utc | 76

- Glenn Greenwald: "With New D.C. Policy Group, Dems Continue to Rehabilitate and Unify With Bush-Era Neocons"

Quote (first paragraph of the article):
"One of the most under-discussed yet consequential changes in the American political landscape is the reunion between the Democratic Party and the country’s most extreme and discredited neocons. While the rise of Donald Trump, whom neocons loathe, has accelerated this realignment, it began long before the ascension of Trump and is driven by far more common beliefs than contempt for the current president."

Another nice quote:
"Indeed, the likelihood of a neocon/Democrat reunion long predates Trump. Back in the summer of 2014 — almost a year before Trump announced his intent to run for president — longtime neocon-watcher Jacob Heilbrunn, writing in the New York Times, predicted that “the neocons may be preparing a more brazen feat: aligning themselves with Hillary Rodham Clinton and her nascent presidential campaign, in a bid to return to the driver’s seat of American foreign policy.”


Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 20 2017 14:18 utc | 77

Empire watch theorom 1 says
'India is guilty until proven innocent'

It's been verified time and time again since 1949 and once again its vindicated
by this latest Indo/Sino flare up.
I knew the Indians were lying thru their tooth from day one, its the nature of the

By now its clear .
Indians went into Chinese territory to confront and stopped a road crew exactly
like what the Chinese claimed.
That Indian accusation of 'very aggressive Chinese troops intruded into Indian
land and destroyed two bunkers ' were pure undulterated Indian cow dung.

India is at the wrong side of border and wrong side of history ,
exactly like 1962.

This simple fact doest seem to register with the ARMIES of jingoistic, dumbed
down, holier than thou and hysterical Indians who swarmed the internet, some who'r even baying for MK

Richard Nixon was right when he obvserved....
'Indians are the most aggressive !@#$%^! around. ' !

Pity China,
So far from god, so near to India.
Oh gawd,
What've the Chinese done to deserve such a neighbor ??

with due respect to MK !

Posted by: denk | Jul 22 2017 3:39 utc | 78

Richard Nixon,
'Indians are the most aggressive !@#$%^! around'

Well it gotta take one !@#$%^! to know another right ?

The Butcher of Mosul in bed with the butcher of Gujaraj,

A partnership made in heaven !

How many heard of Gujaraj 2002 ?

'Much of the violence unfolded with the full collaboration of the police.
In some cases, police fired at Muslims seeking to flee the mobs.
When asked to help a group of girls being raped on the roof of a building,
police officers demurred, explaining: "They have been given 24 hours to
kill you." Subsequent investigations confirmed that police knew in advance
of the pogrom and had been instructed not to interfere with it.'

Posted by: denk | Jul 23 2017 2:09 utc | 79

Indians are attacking Chinese business now, might even turn into
violence against Chinese if the border dispute escalates.

Modi tells them the motherland is being attacked by China.....again,
like 1962.

Posted by: denk | Jul 23 2017 16:50 utc | 80

I just saw/read this Naomi Klein interview by Spiegel online and wanted to share.

Here are some good quotes
SPIEGEL: You argue that the problems of globalization should be solved through more nationalization. Isn't that a bit simplistic?

Klein: It makes sense to keep more of the resources within public control, especially in the field of energy. This has happened in Germany in hundreds of cities and towns. As part of the transition to renewables, there has been a remunicipalization of energy, so that communities are not hemorrhaging the profits from energy production. The same is true after three decades of rail privatization in the United Kingdom. In a lot of cases, the answer is not state ownership but more of a public ownership on the commons model -- community ownership, different ownership structures and more decentralization. Neoliberalism is in crisis. It has been in crisis since 2008, since the financial crisis.

SPIEGEL: Why aren't there any alternative ideas to replace neoliberalism?

Klein: The neoliberal project was never just about privatization, deregulation, low taxes and cuts to social spending to offset those low taxes. It centered around the belief that there is no alternative. The left has been far too timid when it comes to proposing a different vision. But we now have a generation of young people who were never subjected to the kind of propaganda that my generation was subjected to. Their entire adult life has been spent after the financial crisis, their coming of age politically was capitalism in crisis and its defenders running for the hills.

SPIEGEL: Twenty years ago, you helped launch anti-globalization with your book, "No Logo." Today it has become almost fashionable to campaign against the consequences of unrestrained capital flows. Has your criticism become part of the mainstream?

Klein: I've never liked the term "globalization," it sounds like you're against the world. What we're really talking about is the globalization of a specific economic model. The political right is hijacking legitimate frustration about people's jobs, living standards, the ability to change the direction of the country you're living in. This is the feeling that Trump, the Brexiters and Marine Le Pen are all tapping into, and they're mixing it with xenophobic hatred of anything international, with hypernationalism and a toxic anti-immigrant, anti-United Nations, anti-everything global sentiment. The right has been able to do this because centrist political parties abandoned their traditional opposition to these types of policies. They ended up pushing the agenda even further, creating a vacuum for the right to go in. It's very dangerous.

SPIEGEL: Why did these parties leave this space open?

Klein: You mean, why did they pepper spray us when we raised these issues? It is about the triumph of an ideological project that colonized pretty much every major political party. The reasons are different in South Africa than they are in England than they are in the United States. This is partly what I described in my book, "The Shock Doctrine."

SPIEGEL: What do you mean by that?

Klein: During the past 50 years, people in various countries voted for political parties that promised the opposite of austerity. Then came a shock, often an economic crisis. Some governments have to go to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank for a loan, and as a condition to that loan, they are told to abide by the rules of these institutions. This is one of the things that concerns me about Trump -- his administration is setting the U.S. up for another economic shock by deregulating the banking sector, and by cutting taxes so much that there's going to be a massive budget crisis. This becomes the pretext for advancing more radical economic projects. Trump ran on a platform promising to protect social security, but all it takes is one economic crisis to say, "Well, sorry. I have to break that promise."

SPIEGEL: Do you seriously believe Trump is pursuing a strategy that elaborate?

Klein: It's naïve to think he does not understand the utility of a crisis. His advisers are openly quoting Machiavelli and throwing around this "shock to the system" metaphor again and again. Trump made his first major business deal in the midst of New York's debt crisis in the 1970s, he has stacked his cabinet with five former Goldman Sachs executives, including a Treasury Secretary who with bloodless focus profited off of the subprime mortgage crash. He has an education secretary who wants to privatize the entire school system of the United States. It is dangerous to just treat him as a buffoon who is incapable of executing any kind of coherent agenda.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2017 4:38 utc | 81

After 1 year of investigation with Zero evidence being found, Chuck Schumer just stated that "Democrats should blame ourselves,not Russia."

Posted by: Anon | Jul 24 2017 12:04 utc | 82

- Details of Ivanka's income have been revealed:

Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 24 2017 20:43 utc | 83

Mueller russian probe: Meet the lawyers who gave $$ to Hillary, now investigating team Trump

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2017 22:31 utc | 84

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