Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 14, 2017

Is Killing "Leaders" Useful Or Not - CentCom Can't Make Up Its Mind

A contrasting juxtaposition in my twitter feed:


First the U.S. Central Command tweet with this statement by the commander of the U.S. Forces in Afghanistan, General Nicholson:

"This operation is another success in our campaign to defeat ISIS-K in Afghanistan in 2017," said Nicholson. "Abu Sayed is the third ISIS-K emir we have killed in the last year and we will continue until they are annihilated. There is no safe haven for ISIS-K in Afghanistan." [bold added]

Then the Micah Zenko tweet with this interview with the commander of U.S. Central Command, General Votel. Votel is the direct superior of the above Nicholson:

Q: ISIS leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi — dead or alive? And does it matter anymore?

Votel: [..] I hope that he is (dead), frankly. [..] That said, we've been doing this long enough to know that leaders are killed and we've killed plenty of them. And that there's always somebody who is going to step up into those positions so we shouldn't think that just killing Baghdadi is the key here. He can be replaced. So in that regard, it may not matter as much. [bold added]

Nicholson says he can win the war against XYZ by killing a bunch of successive XYZ "leaders". Votel rightly says that this is clearly not so. During sixteen years of War of Terror and constant killing of various "emirs" special boilerplate statements were prepared for the typical "victory" announcements. Votel seems to have understood that such killings do not matter. His direct subordinate Nicholson did not. Shouldn't they talk to each other about such issues?

But it may well be that Votel would have sounded very different if his troops had killed Baghdadi and not a Russian(!) air strike.

Posted by b on July 14, 2017 at 21:11 UTC | Permalink


James Mattis cannot get over it.
He. Just. Cannot. His statement reads like he was on the verge of tears.

Posted by: Lea | Jul 14 2017 21:17 utc | 1

Must be tough to lose a guy so much was invested in, yes?

Posted by: frances | Jul 14 2017 21:27 utc | 2

kill, or murder a leader ( not to mention numerous possible innocent people) and they get replaced with another... what part of this does the drone program, dipshits and etc in the usa not get??

Posted by: james | Jul 14 2017 21:54 utc | 3

Just wondering if they asked JFK first.

Posted by: JSonofa | Jul 14 2017 22:06 utc | 4

Jenan Moussa interviews captured ISIS from Raqqa being held by Kurds; summarizes in series of tweets.

Tunisian ISIS prisoner tells her Muslim Brotherhood encouraged Tunisians to jihad in Syria. Hey, I thought MB was just a peaceful Islamic political movement?

Jenan wrote the story earlier this year about how Nusra was really in charge of Idlib, not FSA or other moderate head-chopper variants. She writes for Al AAn - full interview article here (in Arabic)

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 14 2017 22:07 utc | 5

james @14

It is part of the charade in which the US claims to be attacking ISIS whilst actually supporting it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 14 2017 22:11 utc | 6

Killing "terrorist leaders" is only good for one thing - domestic political ratings. The politicians get to say they're winning the war on terror, you get some good PR, that's about it. It's the same as with arresting drug cartel leaders - it has zero effect on the availability of cheap cocaine in Phoenix, Arizona.

The external factors, that's what needs to be addressed. As with, for example, the drug trade in Mexico, laundering their money into Mexican banks and from there off to London and New York for a real clean-up (and a hefty percentage to Wall Street). The terrorist analogue is that many of these groups were set up and financed and armed as proxy forces for regime change; so as long as the guns & money keeps being delivered, nothing really changes. And with the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall, the only justification for continued bloated MIC budgets in the USA is terrorism - so they've got to keep it going. Killing the useful idiots every now and then, that's part of the game too.

Posted by: nonsense factory | Jul 14 2017 22:56 utc | 7

b asked: "Is Killing "Leaders" Useful Or Not?"

No, but, some of the ones behind the scenes, maybe.

Posted by: ben | Jul 14 2017 23:08 utc | 8

P.S.- "Terrorists don't all wear hijabs, many wear Brooks Bros. suits.

Posted by: ben | Jul 14 2017 23:31 utc | 9

it's like with the drug cartel leaders and their subordinates and their sub-subordinates here in kill one and another takes their place and so on....

But meanwhile back at the ranch, there's more violence in the area/plaza and the country as a whole because all the subordinates and of course the other cartels and their leaders and subordinates fight over the plaza/area/routes etc etc... a never ending cycle of violence.

I can't see how the strategies in either case are that much different, as you are essentially not dealing with the root causes of the appeal of ISIS nor with the causes of the drug violence which is of course dependent on addictions and governments preferring violence and force over talk/rehab/negotiations and in the case of the drugs, decriminalization/legalization.

The US can never 'win' in Afghanistan for the simple reason that it is an occupying/imperial power.

"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare." - Sun Tzu

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 14 2017 23:43 utc | 10

"Is Killing "Leaders" Useful Or Not"

How is the ownership/leadership of a proxy army determined? Their rise was facilitated and funded by US allies under the watchful and approving eye of the US. My guess is the buck stops at the white house and their leadership could have been found there.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 14 2017 23:46 utc | 11

Killing ISIS leaders? Do you mean like the Saudi, Qatari and Emirati royalty? I don't know... it seems like it would be a pretty effective. I would be willing to let CENTCOM give it a shot. Say, the top six or so layers of the ruling families and/or wealthiest/most powerful in each of those countries. I would be willing to accept significant civilian collateral damage as long as it was restricted to other assorted royals, oligarchs and their banks. Please try to avoid the 'little people', most of whom will be out in the streets celebrating the strikes.

When do we let the Tomahawks fly, Mad Dog? Tell the corpse-like Votel that it's time to smoke a few top head-choppers! Riyadh, Doha, Dhubai... take your pick. Better yet, why don't we just fund a Shia insurgency in each of those countries for a little ol' fashioned regime-changin'?

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 15 2017 0:18 utc | 12

@12 Excellent suggestion PW. Let's put those tax dollars to work!

Posted by: dh | Jul 15 2017 0:44 utc | 13

@ Paveway IV and dh


For a change lets have those tax dollars working for the right people.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 15 2017 1:02 utc | 14

Assassination (extrajudicial murder) is contrary to longstanding international law and norms. It was the Israelis who deliberately pushed the envelope on this, followed by the U.S. with its overt drone program.

Forty years ago, officially sanctioned assassination programs, revealed by Senate investigators, was considered shocking headline grabbing scandals in the U.S. Times have obviously changed, not for the better. Nowadays talk of death and killing is common in the lexicon of so-called "leaders".

Posted by: jayc | Jul 15 2017 1:04 utc | 15

Speaking of killing:

Want To Shoot A Palestinian? Israel offers tourists the chance to be soldiers

Posted by: ProPeace | Jul 15 2017 1:25 utc | 16

PW @ 12 said: "Better yet, why don't we just fund a Shia insurgency in each of those countries for a little ol' fashioned regime-changin'?"

Can't argue with that, but, we could take it even further, and include some economic "terrorists" that reside here in the U$A, and are part of our current regime.

Posted by: ben | Jul 15 2017 1:50 utc | 17

jayc@15 - Western leaders have - to use an old U.S. military term - screwed the pooch by assassinating (directly or indirectly) foreign leaders. They have to know that there are probably going to be consequences for those poor decisions. I'm certainly not advocating such actions by anyone for any reason, but I've always been a big fan of Darwin: " exactly what did you THINK was going to happen when you started killing foreign leaders you didn't like?"

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 15 2017 4:05 utc | 18

This post agitated my memory hole so I went back in the MoA archive to this post...

June 14, 2017
The War In Afghanistan Is A Racket

...and found what I was looking for in the last line

"These (AmeriKKKan) wars have become a self-licking ice cream..."

And that's the answer to ALL the irrational thoughts, questions, and answers put forth by the chicken hawks who invented, promote and ACTIVELY sustain and subsidise Israel & AmeriKKKa's Fake War On Terror. It has nothing whatsoever to do with logic or common sense, and everything to do with ripping off Taxpayers to make the owners of the (Privatised) Military Industrial Complex immensely wealthy.
It's about Greed, Deception and Insanity.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15 2017 4:22 utc | 19

The Jews in charge of the Israel Project have successfully sold a gullible and incurious World the Crock that the Palestinians who strenuously object to having their land stolen and their children killed, maimed, starved and terrorised 24/7 by Jews, deserve to be branded, and treated as Terrorists.
They don't.
And that's where all this insanity began. Until the Jews are booted out of Palestine, the popularity of blaming victims of Oppression and Genocide for their misery will continue to pave the way for more oppression and genocide.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15 2017 4:45 utc | 20

Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15, 2017 12:45:06 AM | 20
And that's where all this insanity began. Until the Jews are booted out of Palestine, the popularity of blaming victims of Oppression and Genocide for their misery will continue to pave the way for more oppression and genocide.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment, however, I would suggest it began with Edward Bernays and our (U.S.'s) penchant for power and domination.
Of course, a case could be made it goes farther back than that; much farther back...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 15 2017 5:18 utc | 21

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 15, 2017 1:18:06 AM | 21

Dunno much about Bernays.
However my diary says it all started with a proudly white, racist-supremacist, divide & conquer, British, Toff, Lord Balfour, whose Declaration established and reinforced the racist-supremacist notion that Palestinians were sub-human. Godmother Golda fell over herself with glee and declared Palestine to be "a land without people for a people without a land" possibly the most sickeningly dishonest statement in the history of humanity.
But hardly surprising, considering the source.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15 2017 5:51 utc | 22

Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15, 2017 1:51:39 AM | 22

Yah, yah, not disagreeing with you.
I'm well aware of Golda, who famously said; "Palestinians, who are they, they're not recognizable."
Israelis are monsters, at least, when it comes to the Palestinians; my comment was simply to point out attitudes/racism go back a long way; Old Testament even.
Humans are not nice people and are likely commiting a very slow (by human standards) suicide.
The Sixth Extinction is under way as I type this...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 15 2017 6:09 utc | 23

I cannot believe anything that Col Hackworth called the "Perfumed princes" in the US military say. As Major General Smidley Butler stated: "War is a Racket". The key to understanding the Middle East wars revolve about Western financial interests and their control over resources and more importantly their rate of exploitation via control of transportation routes. I expect the empire will continue to do all they can to inhibit trade not controlled by the West starting with Syria and Iraq.

Syria and China have just announced that the New Silk Road will use Syria as a hub. China will spend two billion dollars building an industrial park for 150 Chinese companies in Syria. Furthermore, the Syrian Ambassador to Syria has declared that China, Russia and Iran will get first rights to any infrastructure and reconstruction projects:

The five eyes will do all they can to stop this Iran-Iraq-Syria trade route. All this bloodletting in Iraq and Syria has been directed by the US, France, and the UK (FUKUS). It was designed to undo the Shia crescent that was created with the overthrow of the Sunni regime in Iraq that actually worked to allow Iran to expend their influence in Iraq. This Shia front was also a threat to Saudi Arabia as Iraq borders on the Shia province in the Saudi Kingdom that is currently being repressed as it contains most of the oil reserves. Stopping the Iranian backed pipeline through Iraq to the Syria coast was also a major Western globalist goal.

The suffering from the multiyear drought in Syria led to a CIA backed terrorist uprising in Southern Syria (covered in detail by “b”) . The West also managed to setup terrorist training camps in Turkey leading to the attack on Lattakia which was defeated by the Syrian Army. These terrorists wheeled East and joined up with Sunni terrorists in Iraq creating the ISIS “brand”. As Anti- Media reported, the U.S. allowed/supported ISIS in gaining control of Mosul quite deliberately: “The Media Says the US Just Liberated Mosul: Here’s What Really Happened”:]

The story goes back much farther and includes in North Africa where the US and especially the French created Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb as a counter to the Islamic groups that threatened to overthrow the corrupt Algerian government as well as prevent Tuareg rebellions: “How Washington helped foster the Islamist uprising in Mali”

These western controlled “Al Qaeda” terrorists were used during the Hillary/Obama led conquest of Libya and later to suppress the Tuareg in Mali along with US special forces (three died) and the French army. As a result, the Chinese development projects in Mali were cut short as part of the global trade war with China.

Many of the Al Qaeda terrorists along with many others formed the backbone of this invasion from Turkey. This is not to discount the Chechen and Georgian terrorists trained in Georgia as part of the earlier attack on Southern Russia during the Caspian Sea blood for oil efforts under the Clinton Administration. The Clinton Cabal did manage to kill thousands in Serbia (including Chinese) and conquer Kosovo as part of the globalist control of oil. This cabal believed that the Caspian contained 200 billion barrels of oil (USGS estimate), which was a vast overestimate.

I fear that the plan is to continue to create chaos in Syria and Iraq until the US no longer has the resources to continue the gridlock.

Posted by: Krollchem | Jul 15 2017 6:30 utc | 24

Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15, 2017 12:22:26 AM | 19

Re Israel/US. A lot of what I read in blogs and so forth seems to have the opinion that Israel somehow took control of the US through AIPAC or whatever. Looking into AIPAC some time ago I found that AIPAC consists of Israeli's and US ecumenical TV evangelists. (Substantial voting block)

A couple of times now, pl at SST has put up posts on USS Liberty
I also run on something simlar when looking at youtube doco's on the SR-71 Blackbird Relevant part starts about three minutes in - interview with the pilots who flew the plane over Egypt and Israel.

Rather than Israel taking over the US, it seems very much like initially the US forced itself onto Israel, perhaps for cold war purposes?
Any thoughts on this?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 15 2017 7:08 utc | 25

Bana Alabed's family life in Eastern Aleppo | Investigation by Khaled Iskef

Posted by: TJ | Jul 15 2017 7:32 utc | 26

@12 paveway.. i love how you cut to the quick, lol - effectively saying the same thing as anonymous @6, which we all seem to think around here...

i have to quote you on that again, lol... "Killing ISIS leaders? Do you mean like the Saudi, Qatari and Emirati royalty?"

perfect.. i am not sure john mccain or sarah palin, or whatever bimbo they have helping to run usa foreign policy at the moment would go for it.. it is too direct, lol...

Posted by: james | Jul 15 2017 7:39 utc | 27

I applaud PavewayIV above for the highest level of appropriate discourse since our good friend Rememberinggiap ceased to comment. One needs a certain perspective.

Not that I don't appreciate all the posters, as best as I can anyway. Certainly an education in online references, the different histories, viewpoints and above all exemplary skillsets. Noirette's post-it note summaries of extremely relevant social axes come to mind. Military analysis of the war in Syria as well as convincing tidbits of how the intelligence community actually functions also stand out, not to mention the hard-won and colorfully stated plain descriptions of direct experience in what we call politics. It would not be fair to name names, I appreciate you all.

On another tangent, looking at a map of the Levant, trying to explain or understand the oil and gas sources, pipeline routes and so on.

Syria gives Iraq and Iran a port on the Mediterranean Sea. The only other countries with potential access to the Med are Israel, Lebanon and Jordan. Well, and Egypt. No wonder Syria is such a busy place right now.

Posted by: jonku | Jul 15 2017 8:16 utc | 28

Actually, to the north, Turkey gives both Iran and Iraq Med access. I was wrong above, Egypt borders only Saudi Arabia to the east.

Does it make sense that the US favors LNG transport via tankers, and oil via tankers, over pipelines. Certainly the US has lots of navy and pretensions to police the sea lanes, no? Straits, canals and pirates do come into play I'm sure.

Pipelines require political stability as well as access for maintenance. Ships require ports. What a job it must be to plan this stuff, fun to think about but what if your job, or life, depended on it.

Posted by: jonku | Jul 15 2017 8:32 utc | 29

NATO has recently released a video glamorising a bunch of WWII Lithuanian/Latvian Nazis under the name of 'Forest Brothers'. The Baltic Nazis outdid the Ukrainian OUN in terms of depravity during WW II.

They have been outdone by NBC which has released a video glamorizing a Ukrainian Neo-Nazi children indoictrination camp. The camp is run by the Azov Battalion, whose logo is the wolfsangel.

Azov, probably the second worst Neo-Nazi battalion are very fond of their torchlit parades.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 15 2017 10:13 utc | 30

Paveway IV @ 12 and others:

Why kill the first six or so layers of the various ruling royal families in the Arabian Peninsula when they have so much money they can afford to hire six or so layers of protection supplied by Akademi (the former Blackwater)?

Instead let them buy (with their insane levels of wealth) heaps and heaps of one-way space tickets for themselves and their families, close and extended alike, to Jupiter or Saturn.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 15 2017 11:24 utc | 31

@ PavewayIV | Jul 14, 2017 8:18:35 PM | 12

You've got your nick after "smart" bomb? Are you techno-fascist? Yes!? Than you are typical Amerikkan. Are you on something, either legal or illegal, doesn't matter. Another evidence of Amerikkanism. Just like those who liked your so-called comment. Or, maybe this is just echo-chamber place with funny nicks?

You comment is reflection of your mindset, that is: a hate, hate to the others. While your "empire" is in ruins, self-inflicted ones, if front your own eyes, powerlessness is more pronounced by days with own (democratically elected) impotent "leader" of all.

Just like this guy with pseudo-historical text without context. Anglo-saxon tribes are desperate in the era of its sunset. Manufacturing consent and enemies from WWI to today is the ruling mode of your "democratic republic" since the Founding Fathers.

Have a mirror PavewayIV, literally and figuratively i.e. are you reading history of your own settler-state country?

Amerikka is a swamp, that is only accurate assessment of your chieftain, and it can not be drained. Not within. But it will be, from outside forces, gradually. It is on the way.

While the US had given inspiration to Nazi-Germany legislative in theoretical framework, and practical one - the Final Solution, in those days, that inspiration remain to nowadays, the US have give direct support US Government-to-compradore class in form of direct occupation (Philippines) and when it becomes too expensive than if form of neo-colonial death-squads from Indonesia 1947 to ISIS 2017.

You PavewayIV think you are smart, you are crippled, no emotions, yet "human" as a result (product) of the system your are living in. You are fuckin' consumer, it is all you can be after all you, that's amounts to your "freedom" because you think in terms what you are given from regime's media outlets and your upbringing. The White Racist one.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 12:31 utc | 32

"Votel seems to have understood that such killings do not matter."

In context of this story it doesn't matter, we talking about fringe movement disconnected from masses. In national-liberation movements it does matter, leaders get s "status" of, almost, mythical figures. However any struggle have some kind HR plan that is developed over the time so no one is irreplaceable.

I'd followed somewhat closely a "death" (even ISIS, and SOHR has confirmed his death) of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, to me mythical figure. Everyone want us to believe in his existence as if so-called ISIS is centrally guided. For god's sake how major threat to "our way of life" can be leaderless!? Like it has the HQ and all necessary infrastructure for commanding with military operations. Moscow has taken credit and Washington has doubts. In lack of any proof I see it rather as PR of competing forces.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 13:03 utc | 33

Well, someone must have peed in Chauncey's cornflakes. Of all the people to attack he singles out one US American who stands head and shoulders above almost everyone else. If Chauncey took the time to read a bit before making silly accusations and attacking someone he has never met and doesn't know he would realize PW3 has traveled far and is graciously offering his observations.

spewing nonsense like this justifies your nick. you really are a pudding head

Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 15 2017 13:16 utc | 34

oops, the Paveway I referred to is the version 4 not 3 as I typed

Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 15 2017 13:20 utc | 35

dan of steele | Jul 15, 2017 9:16:13 AM | 34

Processing food is not good for you, I do not eat that shit.

"Of all the people to attack he singles out one US American who stands head and shoulders above almost everyone else."

Ups...really? I've learned the worse are one who claimed are not be like the rest of herd. You can not find real human being in Amerikka.

"If Chauncey took the time to read a bit before making silly accusations and attacking someone he has never met and doesn't know he would realize PW3 has traveled far and is graciously offering his observations."

It is typical bullish from Amerikkans. To say nothing and write a plenty. Again, your mind and conciseness is shaped by i-phones androids, CNN, Fox etc. You have no brain, period.

"spewing nonsense like this justifies your nick. you really are a pudding head"

OK Sockpuppet, I am very gladly to be, as opposed to you!

"The ugly irony is that when the Nazis rejected American law, it was often because they found it too harsh."

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 13:30 utc | 36

"The ugly irony is that when the Nazis rejected American law, it was often because they found it too harsh."

Astonishing statement!

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 13:39 utc | 37

PavewayIV | Jul 14, 2017 8:18:35 PM | 12

Who would be next? Moscow, Tehran, or Beijing? Tomahawk missiles? You are run on AI (artificial intelligence) too? You have sad state of mind just like the rest of settler-nation.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 13:51 utc | 38

Killing Leaders? Although I'm against Capital Punishment, a useful parlor game is to compose a kill list of 100 people that would make this world a better place. It helps one focus on who is really screwing up the planet!

Posted by: Enrico Malatesta | Jul 15 2017 13:59 utc | 39

Makes me think of Anders Brevik and his logic

Posted by: adamski | Jul 15 2017 14:21 utc | 40

speaking of killing, anyone know if potus is still observing the terror tuesday kill list ritual?

Posted by: john | Jul 15 2017 14:31 utc | 41

“It’s almost an embarrassment being an American traveling around the world and listening to the stupid shit Americans have to deal with in this country,”

This is from one who is on the top of food chain, Jamie Dimon CEO of JP Morgan. Imagine that. Not knowing the context uninformed reader would think this is benevolent statement of concerned citizen, who is concerned for well being of the settler-state. While his bank made record profit PavewayIV and his followers programmatic-human-being are sinking into debt. Many do not have health insurance. But, they still believe in its "exceptionalism" and its "civilizational mission".

Solution? ->, House backs massive increase in defense spending because a hordes of barbarians of various colors are at the gate.

Paveway and the like (white trash) are proud of this, this will Make Amerika Great Again. Dream on...

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 14:35 utc | 42

Fuck off gardiner. Go and eat some cornflakes.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 15 2017 14:40 utc | 43

Yes...I know. What's good for Kellogs it is good for you.
I only eat food with high content of Fructose and Corn Syrup. It helps my metabolism.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 15 2017 14:48 utc | 44

It speaks much of their goals or lack thereof ... or true goals. Is it to take out the leader like Omar, Saddam, Gaddhafi, bin Laden, or Assad? Is it to put semi-puppets in place like Karzai or Chalabi? Is it destroy the country? And so what is the goal with ISIS or al Qaeda? They know they can't kill them all. But can they admit to the American people that GWOT is a forever war with no end? It is mismanagement writ large whether inept, corrupt, or both.

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 15 2017 15:13 utc | 45

Here a two quotes from General Mattis.
3. "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."
6. "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

Posted by: harrylaw | Jul 15 2017 15:17 utc | 46

Chauncey Gardiner... obviously i and others here think you miss the gist of paveways comment... some words can be taken literally, and others are meant in a wider context... this appears lost on you for the moment..

Posted by: james | Jul 15 2017 18:41 utc | 47

the title and the fact that american leaders think along these lines is all one needs to know how far out of sync with reality the usa is..

@15 jayc.. excellent comment. thanks..

Posted by: james | Jul 15 2017 18:49 utc | 48

Outlaw US Empire policy of killing leaders goes back before the founding of the nation--get the scalp of the tribal chief, put it atop your flagstaff and strike terror into his followers over your barbaric behavior--Yes, that's how it actually was, and remains. Think of all the very well organized assassination programs that began in the Philippines almost 120 years ago and the millions murdered since--murdered, not combat kia--Brazil, Argentina, Korea, Chile, Indonesia, Colombia, Africa, and so on and so forth.

I submit Paveway IV has the correct prescription but proposed the wrong target--The Outlaw US Empire Deep State and most of its .01% are most deserving.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 15 2017 19:04 utc | 49

Chauncey Gardiner, keep eating and keep vomiting up those cornflakes with the high fructose corn syrup. Every new comment you spew out against PavewayIV's sarcastic wit gives the rest of us more ammunition to suggest to Bernhard H that you be kicked off MoA as a troll.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 15 2017 20:56 utc | 50

@ 49:"I submit Paveway IV has the correct prescription but proposed the wrong target--The Outlaw US Empire Deep State and most of its .01% are most deserving."


Posted by: ben | Jul 15 2017 23:18 utc | 51

jonku @ 28,29

I appreciate your input. I am remembering that at a recent press conference Putin was asked about the US 'competition' shipping gas products to Europe, to which he replied that he welcomed the competition since it was a matter of economics basically, that would prove to be in Russia's favor.

Winter is not so very far off.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 15 2017 23:58 utc | 52

juliania | Jul 15, 2017 7:58:33 PM | 52

Trump pushing US gas to Europe is interesting. It both defangs those in US who are pushing the war in Syria because of pipelines required to pull Europe away from Russian gas, and brings in money for US. Somewhat covers two of Trump's earlier stated goals.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 0:10 utc | 53

@ 25 u need to read some history start in 1896 with Rothschild and Hertz..the first conference in Switzerland on managing human misery and religious beings for profit.

Posted by: Oyear | Jul 16 2017 1:22 utc | 54

@Jen | Jul 15, 2017 4:56:32 PM | 50

Sarcasm, really? Get serious. Listen Guardian-Sockpuppet, I do not give damn about you or what that person what you mention is going to do. Is that clear?

As far as your (Internet and otherwise) illiteracy goes educate yourself, not because I am buying that "sarcasm" argument but because not to make a fool of yourself. Grow up first.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 16 2017 1:56 utc | 55

Out of curiosity.

Is it sarcasm "at gunpoint"?

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 16 2017 2:03 utc | 56

@56 Clearly there has been some misunderstanding. Chauncey it might help if you told us who you hate the most. America? The West? Paveway? b? All of us at MOA?

Posted by: dh | Jul 16 2017 2:37 utc | 57

Look Chauncey Gardiner (I don't think that's your real name), you could not pick a harder target than Paveway IV here. OK you hate Americans we get that. No need to repeat this over and over. A strategic thinker you are not.

Pipelines require political stability as well as access for maintenance. Ships require ports. What a job it must be to plan this stuff, fun to think about but what if your job, or life, depended on it.

<<= jonku | Jul 15, 2017 4:32:45 AM | 29

This is totally true. Pipelines are very delicate. And it takes up about half of the energy of natural gas to "liquefy" it by cooling. I recall about 20 years ago activists complaining that they were about to let liquefied gas ships into Boston Harbor. The issue was that if they spring a leak they could cause a nuclear-like explosion. I don't doubt this.

Also, this "fracking" thing is a guaranteed disaster, since we will run out of fresh water long before we run out of energy. The whole puzzle is a big unwinnable joke. Who sold us this?

(OK back to the murder and mayhem. I agree that killing people who are enemies is generally sustainable. There are no limits when there are no limits.)

Posted by: blues | Jul 16 2017 3:36 utc | 58

If you scan this whole thread you'll see that the focus of vilification was shifted to the US, and away from Israel, where it was appropriately once trending.

Never feed trolls.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 16 2017 4:52 utc | 59


The US is a grown up now and responsible for its own actions as a state. Unless Israel goes nuclear, it is wholly dependent on the US for survival. The US uses all the radicals in its quest for total world hegemony - wahhabi's, zionists, nazi's. Any fanatical religion or ideology is used.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 5:18 utc | 60

New push for evidence in death of Dag Hammarskjöld


There were claims that the Albertina, which was carrying Hammarskjöld and a 15-strong team seeking to negotiate a ceasefire in the breakaway African republic of Katanga, was riddled with bullets. Several witnesses said they saw as many as eight white men, armed and in combat fatigues, at the crash site.

An industrialist in the copper belt of the old northern Rhodesia apparently saw convoys of Land Rovers heading into the bush after the crash.

Even the former US president Harry Truman was suspicious. The day after the crash he told reporters that Hammarskjöld was at “the point of getting something done when they killed him. Notice that I said ‘when they killed him’.”

“We know from available information that they know much more than what they’re saying,” said one of the senior United Nations officials, referring to the government keepers of those archives. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a confidential United Nations report.

One theory is that the DC-6 may have been attacked or harassed by a French-built Fouga Magister fighter jet operated by secessionist forces in the southern Congolese province of Katanga, who were resisting Mr. Hammarskjold’s efforts to end their rebellion.

Seven months before the crash, three Fouga Magisters had been delivered to the secessionists aboard an American-owned cargo plane that was supposed to be delivering food. President John F. Kennedy was deeply embarrassed by the delivery, which was later reported to have been a C.I.A. operation.

His inquiries also include questions about two American military intelligence officials at different listening posts on the night of the crash, one of whom has since died. Both claimed years later to have overheard radio intercepts that suggested the DC-6 had been shot down.

The Belgium connection is potentially important because of unverified information that Belgian mercenaries had been operating in the Ndola area — including a Belgian pilot who may have been operating the secessionists’ Fouga Magister.

The investigation by Mr. Bjorkdahl suggested the plane had been shot down as it was approaching Ndola. That conclusion was based on interviews he conducted with residents of the Ndola area, who said they had seen a second smaller aircraft, but had never been asked to provide testimony for any official inquiry.

Posted by: mauisurfer | Jul 16 2017 6:03 utc | 61

The course of US rise and expansion since inception is constant Grieved. Israel did not do a deal with the Saudi's that gave rise to the petro dollar. Like the wahhabi kingdom, Israel is a dirty little state, but blaming all ills onto it is a cop out for Americans that understand what their country has done in the world, but don't want to face the full reality of what their state and culture is.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 6:09 utc | 62

mauisurfer | Jul 16, 2017 2:03:08 AM | 61

Landrover? Simply using that term for a four wheel drive vehicle or they were the actual vehicles? Brit involvement?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 6:18 utc | 63

If America really wanted to kill high-level ISIS leaders, then it would start launching some Tomahawk missile strikes on Washington DC, London, Riyadh, Tel Aviv, Ankara, Doha, Amman, and other capitols of terror-supporting nations.

In order to do my patriotic part in the War on Terrorism, I humbly submit this list of targets for Predator Drone bombings in the USA: the White House, the Pentagon, the US State Department, and Langley, Virginia.

Posted by: AK47 | Jul 16 2017 6:46 utc | 64

AK47 | Jul 16, 2017 2:46:45 AM | 64

You missed NSA data base. A library of dirt, or information for manufacturing synthetic dirt, for regime change operations, and installing suitable applicants to positions of leadership in vassal states.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 7:27 utc | 65

@62 Peter AU

I was only talking about this thread. And trolls. And where they throw your thinking. It was only about this thread - please don't extrapolate beyond my simple observation of how trolls change the discourse and the things we think of.

This has nothing to do with facts on the ground. It has everything to do with discourse in the air. I wasn't talking about the things themselves. I was exclusively talking about the gaming of this thread - exclusively. In the nicest possible way, I would label my comment, "Take it or leave it, but don't take it further than it intends to reach."

We can talk about the wrongdoing of the US, all day long actually. But let's do this when we choose, rather than when a troll chooses. We were talking about Israel. And then a shitload of noise hit the thread. What matters is to go past that noise.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 16 2017 7:53 utc | 66

No problems Grieved. The troll that ate one too many frootloops as a kid rather than cornflakes has thrown the thread a bit.
I think this issue of who is the horse and who is the jockey regards US/Israel does need to be sorted out.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 8:26 utc | 67

mauisurfer | Jul 16, 2017 2:03:08 AM | 61
Landrover? Simply using that term for a four wheel drive vehicle or they were the actual vehicles? Brit involvement?
Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16, 2017 2:18:37 AM | 63

Mauisurfer's comment refers to 1961. Back then the choice of 4-wheel drive station wagons was Landrover or Willys Overland (the original Woodie). They were readily distinguishable from each other.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 16 2017 9:10 utc | 68

It all depends upon which group you consider killing the leaders of. I have been saying since the development of Russia's missile defense systems that if the US starts a war then Russia should change the nature of warfare forever by attacking the leaders in DC, including the generals and admirals in the Pentagon, and be sure to take out the crooks in Wall Street.

This scum will bleat like newborn lambs once they start dying through missile attacks, hunter-killer squads, snipers and car bombs. Attack their main homes, second homes, holiday cabins, yachts etc. Make those who start war amongst the first to die in war and end the desire for war.

Posted by: Michael McNulty | Jul 16 2017 11:42 utc | 69

@ 67 Peter AU

Perhaps this video will provide will provide a little clarification in regard to your horse/jockey conundrum.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gets 29 standing ovations from Congress

Strange, when this event was first recorded there were numerous You Tube clips available, mocking congressional obsequiousness and questioning the actual as opposed to nominal leadership of the U.S.. These clips appear to have been scrubbed from U-tube, disappearing down an ever widening rabbit-hole.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Jul 16 2017 13:19 utc | 70

Al-Baghdadi had ‘died’ so many times I have lost count. Having 9 lives or so is great, no?

— It all depends on the ‘leader’. Some of them are poster boys for terrorism, don’t do much except some stuff in Afgh, interviews on MSM tv, die naturally and then are ‘officially’ pretend-killed off, for propaganda purposes. - > Osama, and so who is on which side and running whom? Setting that aspect aside,

Others are indeed crucial figures in complicated landscapes where decapitation of a ‘head’ coupled with concerted attacks on the apparatus and/or the people below can destroy a whole country (e.g. Kadafi.)

Generally, imho, in non-state, revolutionary / terrorist / upstart, underground, subversive / secret criminal entities, medium-sized ones, soldered ideologically -no matter if rather weakly- that have continuing funds, killing off one bozo at the top has no effect.

1) It is of course envisaged and planned for. 2) The leader is often not an original instigator, and not brilliant and charismatic, but propped-up, holding temp. power, and easily replaced, and/or there are clear succession lines to deal with it. 3) It is expected that the enemy ‘crowing’ about killing the ‘leader’ is vain BS - the US is very prone to this trap for propaganda purposes, like it is all a Wild West movie, and of course only rich/ powerful/ sadistic ppl count, in narratives that are less sophisticated than traditional fairy tales.

Btw, this kind of organisation is often very successful, and highly praised when it is a legal *business*. Semi-flat + fluid structure, good collaboration, soldered happy group and strong creative allegiance, attractive corp. ideology, shared powers, rotating ‘top’ roles, etc. => envied success and big money!

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 16 2017 14:11 utc | 71

Paveway posts, 12:

Killing ISIS leaders? Do you mean like the Saudi, Qatari and Emirati royalty? I don't know... it seems like it would be a pretty effective. I would be willing to let CENTCOM give it a shot. Say, the top six or so layers of the ruling families and/or wealthiest/most powerful in each of those countries. I would be willing to accept significant civilian collateral damage as long as it was restricted to other assorted royals, oligarchs and their banks.

As a fantasy about what might unfold in an alternate world, OK, fine, we all have covert aggro impulses and hopes, say.

As all here know, ISIS (Daesh, al Nusra …) are for a large part a US creation or at very least benefit from encouragement / support / funding / arms…is Pave arguing against these Masters?

To flip it about: Iraqis, Lybians and some assorted Europeans, as an ex., might choose, in imagination, to eliminate the top 6 or so layers of ruling families in the US, which would include CEOs of big corps / military / msm / Gvmt. / and maybe up to 10% or *far more* of the US population, as tolerance for killing civs. is high.

Then what? Does Pave, or those who approve of his post, agree with the same measure applied to the US?

I am maybe missing high-octane Irony? If so others did as well…ppl seem to agree with such moves…or object clumsily…> the Chauncey guy

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 16 2017 15:18 utc | 72

@72 "I am maybe missing high-octane Irony?"

Yes I think so. Paveway can speak for himself but I saw his post as saying 'If we are going to kill ISIS leaders why not do a thorough job?'
It won't happen of course but the logic is sound.

Posted by: dh | Jul 16 2017 15:34 utc | 73

heh dh 73 ok thx maybe i'm just having a literal interpretation bad day :) as my hair is ok.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 16 2017 15:56 utc | 74

pantaraxia | Jul 16, 2017 9:19:46 AM | 70

Similar to the reception Poroshenko received...

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 16 2017 16:21 utc | 75

The affection for killing leaders stems from the 60s when "they" killed JFK, RFK, MLK, and Malcolm X along with most of the Black Panther leadership. along with continuing legal harassment for any other effective leaders but then there's Wellstone and JFk jr where the favorite method was to have their planes fall out of the sky. I don't have any proof of this but I imagine that beamed, pulsed microwaves of the correct frequency can cause heart attacks of troublesome people - when having them fall off of buildings or out of windows is inconvenient (mostly used for low level irritants along with convenient deadly auto accidents but I can remember a certain Princess - not exactly low level). I, of course, don't have documentary proof but when timely death is not important, inducing cancer can be used. This doesn't work for drug dealing gangs in Mexico or South America or externally controlled terrorists like ISIS. It has worked remarkably well for politics in the US and political leaders in foreign countries. If not there's the US military for people like Noriega and Ghadafi who had good security as did DeGaulle but France was just a little too big to invade. It just took a little longer using softer methods along with Gladio B type terrorist events.

Posted by: gepay | Jul 17 2017 12:13 utc | 76

Bagdadi is a figment of your (our) imagination.

Posted by: C I eh? | Jul 17 2017 16:38 utc | 77

There will be a day the descendants of these KILLED people will make thermonuclear weapons that pollute the place where they drop (USA) for 10.000+ years. So it is never ever smart in the AGE of thermonuclear weapons.

Posted by: Thucydides | Jul 18 2017 18:35 utc | 78

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