Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 04, 2017

"... And the rocket's red glare ..." - North Korea Wishes A Happy 4th of July

In recognition of the U.S. Independence Day the Democratic People's Republic of Korea launched some remarkable fireworks.

DPRK State TV confirmed a successful launch and the basic data others had measured (video).

The announcement comes nearly exactly six month after President Donald Trump issued this prediction.

That forecast turned out to be false.

Jonathan McDowell @planet4589 - 7:02 AM - 4 Jul 2017
Recap: North Korea launches Hwasong-14 ICBM at 0040 UTC Jul 4 from Kusong's Panghyon Airport 933 km eastward to Sea of Japan, 2802 km apogee

More official pictures of the launch were published. The North Korean head of state Kim Jong-Un attended.

North Korea fired the missile at a steep trajectory reaching a very high apogee. This limited the range of the test launch. The flight time of 37 minutes was extremely long. Recalculating the data into a more normal trajectory the maximum flight range of the missile is estimated to be 6,700 kilometers with a normal payload. Launched from North Korea it could cover Alaska but not the lower 49 states. With a light warhead, possibly a small nuclear load, the range could be up to 10,000 kilometer and cover at least the north-western states.

Trump will be rightfully blamed for the braggadocious formulation of his tweet. But one can not blame him for not stopping North Korea's missile development. A war on North Korea would also destroy South Korea and have implications far beyond the peninsula. Only the end of U.S. military maneuvering around Korea and the perspective of a full peace agreement could have achieved a stop of North Korea's development. The U.S. Congress would support neither. Trump tried to press China to reign in North Korea, But China has no reasonable way to do that. One could just as easy blame former U.S. presidents - Clinton for breaking his agreements with North Korea, Bush for his general hostility and Obama for his do-nothing excuse of "strategic patience".

North Korea has very good reasons to perceive the U.S. as vicious enemy and to never trust any U.S. statement or agreement. It needs nuclear weapons for its self-defense. As it can not trust any of its neighbors it needs strategic independence. That has now been achieved.

The U.S., and Trump personally, has been just been "shown the finger" by a small underdeveloped state. One wonders how Trump and the official U.S. it will react to that.

Posted by b on July 4, 2017 at 8:25 UTC | Permalink


Another example of the world spinning out of control of the US imperialistic enterprise, at work at least since the Spanish American War in 1898. (See Oliver Stone's excellent "Untold History of the US:") Merkel of Germany is now referring to the US as a "partner," like Putin does, rather than as an "ally." With the rise and likely election of Jeremy Corbyn as Labor PM in the UK lapdog poodle/puppet #1, the UK, is close to being lost to the US. The current major allies of the US are the trogloditish regimes in the Baltics and Poland who are parasites on EU largesse. The only ally that the US can count on any more is Israel, and it can count on that Zionist apartheid theocracy for deceit, betrayal and to drag it into bankrupting foreign wars. How much longer will Japan stay in the US orbit? Well, Abe is on the rocks. Perhaps another year? In short, the US has flat run out of allies and friends around the world. As a US citizen I must ruefully say the US is only getting what it deserves. Well overdue.

Posted by: Joseph Dillard | Jul 4 2017 8:59 utc | 1

North Korea sitting on $7 trillion worth of minerals

Somewhere a load of oligarchs have got very itchy fingers. The spice (and blood) will flow.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 4 2017 9:10 utc | 2

Yes, a commonly untold side to the story - resources - despite every single war being about them.

Posted by: insanity | Jul 4 2017 9:34 utc | 3

In light of the realities of the last 17 years (at least), of government driven, MSM's propaganda campaign, along with very tainted reportage'; if, especially, one is a Usian; it is long past the time to rethink everything one thinks one knows about the world and its politics.
I no longer accept the U.S.'s insisted view of North Korea. Surely it's not accurate or correct. But, not "knowing", I'll damn sure try to find out.
No easy task, I might add, but, well worth the effort, IMO.
This is, as I see it, the value of b's efforts; he gives us another tool to the facts.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 4 2017 10:02 utc | 4

South Korea should just ditch the US, reunificate North Korea on an equal level nationalist base. With nukes, ICBMs and a potent economy Korea would become completely independent from any foreign interference. US sanctions or menaces would backfire as Korea would trade and ally with China and Russia.

Japan would go nuclear with their own ICBM next (months to a couple years, has all the technology and means available) declaring independence from WW2 US occupation

US would no longer be able to meddle in the north Pacific area other than on irrelevant small islands and reefs.

But obviously the South Korean top military and comprador elites have other than the Koreans interest on their minds and purposes so it's unlikely to happen.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 4 2017 10:21 utc | 5

"But China has no reasonable way to do that."

But China has no reason to that, given geopolitical situation. Somehow the White Man, buffoons such as Boris Johnson and Donald Trump, and still thinks that has the right to meddle into China's internal affairs.
"Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong ‘no longer has any realistic meaning’, Chinese Foreign Ministry says"

and than

"Chinese President Xi Jinping warned President Donald Trump on Monday that "some negative factors" are hurting U.S.-China relations, as tensions flare anew over a slew of long-standing sore points."

there is way too much of thing that aggravates Beijing and its relation with the US. The UK should can simply discarded as a nation of any importance.

It is important to say that these "sore point" are not going to go away anytime soon and
I would not be surprised if this launching have got green light, at this date, by China.

Posted by: Chauncey Gardiner | Jul 4 2017 12:01 utc | 6

b, 'But one can not blame him for not stopping North Korea's missile development.'

nor its nuclear weapons development. look at iran and its experience. with the rump-bibi-mbs alliance ready to try iran, it would be better off today with nukes. that fact cannot be lost upon north korea.

if the usofa wanted peace then they would kick in with russia, china, japan and of course south korea and work till they got it. the attitude of the us needs to be - what can we do to remove our perceived threat to you (all)? - instead its all about us demands. an utter non-starter. and obviously - like the ultimatum delivered by the rump-bibi-mbs alliance to qatar - a an offer made that can't possibly be accepted. and they know it. what's that say about the usofa? i guess they figure that after their nuclear war there will be now one left to hang them, as they hung the germans 70 years ago.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 4 2017 12:10 utc | 7
Russia says it was a medium range missle per Sputnik

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 4 2017 12:18 utc | 8

So North Korea sent a candle to light the sky. Selecting such an auspicious day, wonder what 'the pretence' will reply. Will the message be taken as a challenge or read as a 'Do Not Tread On Me', only time will show, what wisdom already knows. But the dividing power is engaged in its work, setting all against all for pleasure and profit picking up the pieces left when tribe turns against brother tribe, their lands engorged with the slain and barren of those to collect the grain. Tribes torn from their source of succour, where generations invested their lives content to build their culture, all gone with the blast of bomb and ardent infliction of terror, the bequest of generations taken from their rightful descendants. This is the world today we see, armageddon where none survives. This day the world observes a once sacred day but can only say: "This day enjoy your Flies, M'Lords"

(to be read in poetic mode)

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 4 2017 12:52 utc | 9

Historically, the US has never attacked a nuclear-armed state. Since WW2, the US has attacked only weak and relatively defenseless states.

For this reason, it is theoretically valid that those states which are nuclear-armed are better insulated from US aggression.

The timing of Kim Jung's display is clever.

Posted by: fast freddy | Jul 4 2017 13:15 utc | 10

A few thoughts:

If that NKorean missile reached an altitude of 2800 km as claimed, then it can definitely achieve orbit and therefore the warhead (s) could fall back to Earth at *any* point of latitude and longitude that NKorea desires. Its nearly impossible to shoot them down because they are only several feet long and a few hundred kilos of mass moving at too many multiples the speed of sound. That's what we call an ICBM.
Trump needs to sign a peace treaty with the NKorean monarch and let the Koreans sort out the fate of their nation. Its not our problem.

The US national anthem defends slavery in the fourth, all but forgotten stanza.

The US national anthem is a disgrace that needs to be rewritten asap:

Oh say can you see, by the dawn´s early light,
Our nation reborn and a country re-branded.
Where once oligarchs stood and a clique ruled by might,
The army rebelled and The People commanded:
That a nation conceived, founded in Liberty,
Stay true to her creed and reboot when there´s need!
And the star-spangled banner in triumph did wave,
In the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave!

Stanza 2

United we stand, divided we would fall,
The great melting pot, made one nation of many.
From all countries we came, to begin a new life, in
‘merica, the Land of Milk and Honey.

The American Way, separates church and state,
No temple, no mosque, will determine our fate!
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave,
While the Land of the Free is the Home of the Brave!

Stanza 3

Oh let freedom ring, from the majestic heights
Of all mountain tops, and from sea to shining sea.
Safe and strong in our homes, in our cars, on the street,
No fears we might meet, a rogue cop on the beat.
No police state will stand, ‘ver the freedom of Man,
While our Bill of Rights, is the law of the land!
Black,beige,brown,white,red,yellow,rich,poor and in between!
Formed one nation to be free and the home of the brave!

Stanza 4

Genius for industry, science, technology,
Made true the promise, of long life and prosperity.
Our best minds changed the world, to the marvel of all,
Yankee novelty, redefined possibility.
And the world did rejoice, with John Glenn´s soaring voice,
One step for a man, is a leap for mankind!
And Mars beckoned us forward to new frontiers of space,
In the name of the Free and the Home of the Brave!

Daniel Bruno

Posted by: Daniel Bruno | Jul 4 2017 13:16 utc | 11

"Missile launched by North Korea was intermediate range, not ICBM – Russian Defense Ministry"

Posted by: relament | Jul 4 2017 13:24 utc | 12

b: "..North Korea has very good reasons to perceive the U.S. as vicious enemy and to never trust any U.S. statement or agreement..."

North Korea... And every single other country on earth. Loathing of the USA and what it represents has never been so palpable.

Posted by: Petra | Jul 4 2017 14:14 utc | 13

Perhaps the greatest strategic mistake that the United States has made in the Bill Clinton/George W. Bush/Barack Obama era, has been to crush and destabilize countries that didn't threaten us - even that tried to make nice with us! And not just destroy the countries, but see their leaders and their families tortured and killed, and then gloat about it.

We have made it perfectly clear, that only by possessing a serious military deterrent can a small nation be safe from the Untied States. Iran, North Korea, Pakistan... I am only surprised that more countries aren't going this route. But expect more to follow before too much longer, unless a fit of sanity breaks out and the United States becomes a normal country again.

Posted by: TG | Jul 4 2017 14:33 utc | 14

#Petra... every country loathes...

Excepting Puerto Rico. One wonders where that moment of insanity came from. Perhaps a corrupted plebiscite?

Posted by: Petra | Jul 4 2017 15:08 utc | 15

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 4, 2017 6:21:53 AM | 5
(West-)Germany drove almost all of Europe to the brink to pay for its reunification. Why would South Korea want to pay so much, and what could they gain?
Please recall there is a "free work area" in DPRK where thousands of people provide cheap labor to South Korean industries (which in turn provides almost all the foreign currency DPRK needs). Who would want to see that disappear?
And there are other motives that keep also US, China or Japan from pushing for reunification (why keep US military bases in Japan/Korea afterwards?). So basically nobody wants a single Korea.

Posted by: Jeff | Jul 4 2017 15:37 utc | 16

"...Obama for his do-nothing excuse of "strategic patience"."
Uncle Tom did not do nothing. He escalated the situation. And you know it B. I wonder why you rote that.
The u.s. and Russia are now downplaying the test. I'm not sure if this is a good sign or the contrary. It's difficult to predict if Tronald has the guts to look like a wuss or prefers to ignite the world.

Posted by: Pnyx | Jul 4 2017 15:46 utc | 17

i was thinking of that joke this morning about the body part that wanted to be the boss and thinking of the usa's role here as the bodies asshole...

Who’s the Boss?

When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss. The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss. The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss. The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days…

The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…

Just an Asshole.

Posted by: james | Jul 4 2017 15:59 utc | 18

Jeff @16.

It is the case that most S. Koreans are not interested in paying for the costs of reunification. However, there are a many in Korea that strongly believe that Korea's future lies in Asia. The perpetual state of no-war, no peace is not good for the Korean people. Some kind of normalization will be need to be worked out.

Korean business would benefit hugely if they could join with China and Russia in the one belt, one road project. This can only be done if S. Korea could establish over-land connections directly with China and Russia. The necessary highways, rail and pipe lines will have to go through the North. This would connect the south with direct land connections to nations representing well more than half of the world's population.

To establish such connections would tie Korea firmly into the Eurasian land mass and break its de-facto island economy. It would also mean the dissolution of its alliance with the US. That is probably the big reason that the US is resisting a peaceful resolution to the Korean war. Such a change in US policy will require some very big changes in the US, obviously.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2017 16:31 utc | 19

"Trump will be rightfully blamed for the braggadocious formulation of his tweet. But one can not blame him for not stopping North Korea's missile development"

I beg to differ. It could have been stopped by diplomacy if the US still had any diplomatic skill. Unfortunately it is a nation taken over by militaristic fervor and is completely delusional about what an over funded bloated military can actually accomplish.

Posted by: goldhoarder | Jul 4 2017 16:40 utc | 20

@20 To which I would add that any kind of concession is viewed as weakness. The US could for example offer to scale back the military exercises with S. Korea in return for no further testing. Russia and China have suggested this might be a good move. Trump can't do it without having it called appeasement.

Posted by: dh | Jul 4 2017 17:11 utc | 21


I suppose diplomacy is hopeless anyways when you have decided on full covert war

Separately, the CIA said on Wednesday it had established a Korea Mission Center to "harness the full resources, capabilities and authorities of the Agency in addressing the nuclear and ballistic missile threat posed by North Korea".

The center would gather experienced officers from across the CIA in one entity "to bring their expertise and creativity to bear against the North Korea target", it said.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2017 17:27 utc | 22

"If that NKorean missile reached an altitude of 2800 km as claimed, then it can definitely achieve orbit and therefore the warhead (s) could fall back to Earth at *any* point of latitude and longitude that NKorea desires."

No, that is incorrect. In order to achieve orbital speed, it has to reach at least 8 km/s relative to the ground. If you take the numbers (2800 km at 16 minutes) that only puts the warhead's average speed of just under 3 km/s. I'm also going to go out on a stretch here and imply the missile had no load on it, either since it was likely for propaganda purposes.

Posted by: P Walker | Jul 4 2017 17:28 utc | 23

Best headline, b.

This plus the Wall Street "glitch" makes me think blended attack, but probably just self-inflicted stupidity.

Still thinking that the NK missiles could go west as easily as they could go east. If the range of [Alaska} counts, Afghanistan and the northern tip of Australia along with all of SE Asia are in range. If Kim can get his range up to 8000 km, Europe and Hawaii are game. If NK wants to jump in with Iran, Dubai is in play.

Posted by: stumpy | Jul 4 2017 17:29 utc | 24

Pyongyang to Chicago, 10400 km

Posted by: stumpy | Jul 4 2017 17:47 utc | 25

Pyongyang to London, 8700 km

Posted by: stumpy | Jul 4 2017 17:52 utc | 26

p walker @23

No your calculation is in error. You calculated an average velocity. In fact the rocket was accelerating. At the beginning, at time zero from lift off, its velocity was 0 km/sec. During the course of ascent its velocity was increasing. Its velocity when it reached 2800 km was considerably higher then the average you imagined. The fact it was able to reach 2800 km means it was definitely going fast enough to reach orbital velocity. It came back down because it was steered to do so.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2017 18:46 utc | 27

China will never, ever allow US/NATO troops to deploy on what is now the Chinese/N. Korean border in the event of either a western backed reunification of Korea, or a total collapse or defeat of the pesky little "Hermit Kingdom". This is something that Russia is now trying to fend off on it's western borders - especially in the Ukraine - with the recent US/NATO putsch right up to the primarily Russian Donbass.

Though China might not be particularly pleased with Kim's continued military petulance and threatening bluster, it still very much desires an independence, non-western aligned territory that's directly south of it's borders. If ever N. Korea were to collapse or be "regime changed" by a US/NATO invasion, then Chinese troop would immediately come poring over the border and seize a good chunk of northern Korean land - establishing a defacto buffer zone between itself and any potential western backed government.

At present, China at least has a somewhat protective (if increasingly unstable) pit bull at it's feet, that will not hesitate to defend itself against the ever menacing US/NATO bully hegemon. A series of bat-shit krazy Kims armed to the teeth have thus far kept the western hegemon at bay. How long this can continue is anyone's guess..but, I'm betting that the US/NATO gang will not cross the DMZ if they think that they'd really have to pay a heavy price for doing so. Facing an arsenal of Nuclear weapons is something that even bulling neocons demure from when challenged..

Posted by: time2wakeupnow | Jul 4 2017 19:14 utc | 28

- China uses North Korea as a "Pain in the A**" for the US.
- The US uses North Korea as an excuse to build up its military strength in Okinawa, South Korea and other places (Guam ???) and that military power is aimed at China.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 4 2017 19:35 utc | 29

b--"... a small underdeveloped state."

What criteria were used to arrive at that conclusion? Given North Korea's technological capabilities, I don't think that appellation can apply.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 4 2017 19:56 utc | 30

@ToivoS #19

The stalemate is not good for China either, since the cost of maintaining the little DPRK garrison state with a minimal economy places a burden on China and there's the constant refugee problem near the border. I think you are correct in seeing the path out of the current impasse hinging on relations between ROK and China. China has a lot of economic and political incentive to offer ROK, although the path forward would not be without stumbling blocks. China has traditionally seen ROK as an economic as well as a political rival, which was a major incentive for maintaining the impasse on the peninsula. IMO that thinking is obsolete since China has become the unrivaled economic power of the far east and much of ROK's business is done with China. China could broker a peace between ROK and DPRK if ROK becomes neutral. The big question is whether DPRK's cult-like leadership would be amenable, since their legitimacy is derived from confrontation with the west. But China has some pretty strong cards to play on the DPRK as well and no particular love for its hereditary dynasty.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Jul 4 2017 20:22 utc | 31

Soon Germany will get a middle finger as well...
C est la vie Krauts..

Posted by: Greece | Jul 4 2017 20:29 utc | 32


IMO there is a very good chance that China will assume direct control of DPRK at some point, either through economic receivership or militarily. The DPRK dynasty pushes China's patience as much as it pushes the west's. If a shooting war ever breaks out on the peninsula, China could occupy Pyongyang, replace the government, and offer a cease-fire before the USA could say boo.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Jul 4 2017 20:39 utc | 33

In support of my question about North Korea being "underdeveloped," I offer this new item at The Duran by Andrew Mercouris and the links within it as evidence,

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 4 2017 20:56 utc | 34

the 'moral' of this long tale about the Koreas is exactly has bernard has mentioned several times in his posts on the subject

"...Only the end of U.S. military maneuvering around Korea and the perspective of a full peace agreement could have achieved a stop of North Korea's development."

everything else is window dressing. and since the US obviously is not going to make any kind of a peace treaty with the north (though I wonder if the South might not some day do it itself), then we will have continued manufacture of nuclear weapons and missiles in the north, and continued belligerence by the neighborhood bully the world-wide cop on the beat with its big stick

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 4 2017 21:17 utc | 35


An interesting article by Mercouris.
Part of China's silk road plan is to increase the wealth of all countries involved to help increase Chinese trade.
With NK as a buffer zone, it would make sense for China to help out there too.
In looking at this article of b's, I wonder if NK has had some help with missile tech. Matching a nuke to a missile may be a lot more difficult, but having the US know that NK has a successful missile and a successful nuke puts some pressure on the US.
An interesting part of the Putin Stone interviews - Putin said it was US nuke scientists themselves that passed information onto the USSR to allow them to quickly demonstrate a working nuke.

Something similar may have occured here with NK, either China or Russia giving NK an assist.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 4 2017 21:27 utc | 36

First and foremost I'm a supporter of China’s mix commie/capitalist form of government. During Xi Jinping last week visits to Hongkong 20th anniversary handover ceremony before meeting Vladimir Putin in Moscow to show she has the mean and able to crush any regime changes and interference from other States. Not to forget US, Japan, Soviet Union and Westerns powers humiliated China for more than a century against the Chinese people.

China building massive bases in South China Seas - Pascal and Spratly Islands which for centuries belong to China is not against its neighboring States but foresaw a future war with Japan and the US. Unknown to many the US are behind the scene prepare a coup-d'état regime change with Joshua Wong 'Umbrella' rebellion leader movement in HK. Just as Crimean belongs to Russia Federation, the islands belong to China. Both nations will never yield its sovereignties and will go to wars with USA (and Japan). Period. War with Japan will be revenged for the crimes (Japan never admitted) during the Qing or the Manchu dynasty, the horrific and brutality Nanking's massacre and in Asia.

Hongkong democracy activist leader Joshua Wong honoured in United States

Hong Kong: Joshua Wong Sees Diminishing Prospects for Democracy under Chinese Rule
( Note Freedom House)

China National anthem Chinese & English lyrics
(Note read the lyrics Arise, "ye who refuse to be slaves!")

Posted by: OJS | Jul 4 2017 21:30 utc | 37

since we are talking about nukes

Over the weekend, more than 10,000 people signed a petition under the heading “Tell Trump and Putin: Negotiate, Don’t Escalate.” The petition was written by RootsAction to be concise and to the point: “We vehemently urge you to take a constructive approach to your planned meeting at the G-20 summit. Whatever our differences, we must reduce rather than increase the risks of nuclear war. The future of humanity is at stake.”

petition is here:

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 4 2017 21:40 utc | 38

Thinking about it some more, it is in both China and Russia's interest to have a prosperous and stable NK as a buffer. As b has pointed out in previous posts, that is difficult to achieve if NK has to maintain a huge conventional military.
So China/ Russia assist with economy plus missile/nuke tech?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 4 2017 21:40 utc | 39

Obvious, but worth mentioning, perhaps. Downplaying (by Russia and the US) the size, range and relevance of the missile aids in preparing a climb-down - face saving, if you will, for the Idiot President and the biggus dickus USA he represents.

A ham-fisted retaliatory measure at any point will upset the vaunted markets. Of course, Goldman will take short positions in due time and clean up as they do.

Did you know that NK has the largest fleet of submarines? They're mostly junk, of course, according to CIAwikipedia.

Posted by: fast freddy | Jul 4 2017 21:43 utc | 40
...Moscow and Beijing have agreed that North Korea should freeze its nuclear and missile programs, while the US and South Korea should abstain from holding war games in the region, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.
“We’ve agreed to promote our joint initiative, based on Russian step-by-step Korean settlement plan and Chinese ideas to simultaneously freeze North Korean nuclear and missile activities, and US and South Korean joint military drills,” Putin said at a press conference after meeting with China’s leader, Xi Jinping, in Moscow....

China and Russia have been holding this stance for sometime now. The wording is freeze. Leaves NK with its current missiles and nukes. I wonder if this is a method of steadily increasing pressure on the US until eventually the US blinks and begins to step back?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 4 2017 22:09 utc | 41

Thirdeye | Jul 4, 2017 4:22:41 PM | 31

One of the difficulties for Westerns have in assessing Chinese plans and national interests is the time scale of events. This brings to mind a story from a press conference Zhou En Lai had in France in the 1950s. A French reporter asked Prime Minister Zhou thought about the French revolution in the 1790s. His response was 'that remains to be seen'. When I heard that I laughed thinking he was making a joke. Now I don't think he was joking.

I saw an interview with Putin where he complained that the US representatives did not try to see 25 or 50 years in the future. Any one who follows US politics cannot imagine any US leader seeing more than 4 years in the future -- they are all tied into the four year election cycle. And these US fools are negotiating with Russia who measure time in 25 year periods or the Chinese who think in terms of centuries.

China remains very sensitive to what happened in Korea in 1952 when US forces moved onto the Yalu River marking the Korean-Chinese border. The Chinese lost close to a million men repulsing that invasion. That was only 60 or 70 years ago (definitely a short time scale in the way Chinese see things). There is no way that China will now concede to US demands that they do something about the North Korean "threat" to US "interests".

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2017 22:13 utc | 42

@42 ts

that's so true. the chinese and the russians certainly view the 'us regime' as continuous post-wwii. americans think we're light years 'beyond'. it's a conscious decision by the ptb in the usa.

No. 1. contrast is the USA, where time is annihilated in favor of an ever-ongoing present in which anything goes and all things can change very rapidly, by the day even - seeing to it that no coherent history, narrative, exists, and thus no future goals can be imagined, constructed, agreed on, and then acted on.

it's all about the open-ended process of making financial sausages, one link follows another ... an endless series of groundhog's days. just keep feeding the machine. the abattoir is 'over there'. was anyway. its various functions are now coming home, one by one.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 4 2017 22:38 utc | 43

jfl @43

That is a good quote that does seem to summarize what I was trying to say.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2017 23:00 utc | 44

@ 20: Yep, if these articles have any validity, all the unrest can be laid at the feet of the corporate ass-wipes who, for the sake of ever increasing profits, refuse to make peace in the world..

Posted by: ben | Jul 4 2017 23:23 utc | 45

We're such hypocrites. Last month, the media hailed the test flight of the US new ICBM. So the US, France, British, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, and Israel can have missiles but smaller countries can't? Its too late.

Posted by: Toxik | Jul 4 2017 23:28 utc | 46

ToivoS @42

It is more credibly a reference to the Paris student riots of 1968. Creative misunderstanding of alleged Chinese inscrutability and centuries long foresight did the rest. Chinese BS smells the same as that of any other.

Posted by: Ivan | Jul 4 2017 23:50 utc | 47

@42 - ToivoS

The beauty of the Internet is that you encounter things that were personal in your life long ago, and that you assumed were irretrievable forever. Thanks for that Zhou quote, I've loved it for many decades. The story I heard was specific to asking if he thought the French Revolution was a success. After pondering, he said, "Too soon to tell." Chinese time indeed. And like you, I've taken it more seriously in recent years as a very real judgment that he made.

@34 karlof1

I just came over here from reading that Mercouris article on North Korea - citing the Financial Times, no less, to the effect that the DPRK economy is booming. Once again the scales fall from the eyes, we remember that everything we ever were told about anything is a lie, and it becomes clear that all the western stories about North Korea come from South Korea, and presumably the CIA, and the current ones certainly are demonstrably wrong.

I get the impression that the tides of history want to reunite the two Koreas and have them partake in this Asian Century to the full. The story becomes far less one of US perception of and aggression against the North - it is simply impotent in this theater - and far more one of when and how South Korea will throw off its shackles and regain its sovereignty, leading its own life as part of Asia rather than as an Atlantic vassal.

I could speculate that this sovereignty might come sooner to South Korea than to, say, France. Only because I have an idea that events weakening the bonds of US vassalage will speed up over the next few years. It's an extraordinary speculation, but in my neighborhood it IS Independence Day. And this is Asia, with different players ruling the game.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 5 2017 0:06 utc | 48

@47 ivan

ha! the guy from wikipedia claims the source of the quote was the bbc ... 2003 ... no attribution. sounds like 1968 might be more nearly correct. the chinese cannot walk on water.

they have a longer sense of time than us americans ... but that's more of a function of our obsessive inattention than any mythic qualities of the chinese. it's the usofa that's exceptional ... aka abnormal.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 5 2017 1:03 utc | 49

@48 g

i agree with you on south korea. the new president seems serious.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 5 2017 1:05 utc | 50

#11 Daniel Bruno

"If that NKorean missile reached an altitude of 2800 km as claimed, then it can definitely achieve orbit..."

Can you please show me your calculation? Did it have to travel at 28,440+km/h to reach that high up:

To quote the internet "This speed of 7.9 kilometers per second is known as the orbital velocity"

Note: I am not saying that this particular missile can't reach even further than Alaska, if there are greater fuel reserves or if a smaller payload is used; merely that they aren't near orbital yet. Which doesn't mean they wont get there in a year or two.

Posted by: Quadriad | Jul 5 2017 1:17 utc | 51

#32 Beaucoup d'amour lost between youz Moussaka boyz and Frau Merkel's unterlinks... and it shows.

Posted by: Quadriad | Jul 5 2017 1:22 utc | 52

#36 good point

If you are keen to listen, sometimes all you need is the right hint at the right time in the right context, from someone who's been there before and learned your lessons the harder way. No need for fancy spy affairs and advisors etc. Just a friendly tete a tete between a couple of engineers over a cold beer and some kimchi.

Posted by: Quadriad | Jul 5 2017 1:24 utc | 53

P Walker @23, et al.
according to wikipedia, the orbit of the international space station is between 330 and 435 km. So if this DPRK rocket reached 2800 km, I'd say that it definitely reached orbital velocity - about 2400 km before it turned around and headed back to earth. Am I right in thinking that the N. Koreans could probably land that thing anywhere on the planet? They could just have it orbit and loiter for a few thousand miles and then send it plunging down. Looks to me like they have a full on ICBM. Am I missing something?

Posted by: skuppers | Jul 5 2017 1:38 utc | 54



Well now they're admitting that it was an ICBM. And firing up the blowhards like Tillerson. I must say that Nikki Haley inspires a load of confidence.

Posted by: fast freddy | Jul 5 2017 2:04 utc | 55

jfl @49 its not just Wiki, but the internet is no longer the eternal store of memory that it was a decade ago. I read the about this some years back and it was attributed to people who were there.

Posted by: Ivan | Jul 5 2017 2:22 utc | 56

#54 skuppers

Yes you are missing something.

At 2800km altitude, the missile has slowed down to a vertical vector component speed of 0, before turning down.

At above 20km or so altitude, the air resistance becomes negligible... I don't have the calculations to prove, long been since I've done my calculus and physics, but I feel that it's near impossible to slow down something that initially flies at almost 30,000 km/h to 0km/h within just 2800km using a tiny initial bit of air resistance, and then gravity alone. Even if you round that 2800km to 3000km to remove and account for the horizontal velocity vector.

Posted by: Quadriad | Jul 5 2017 2:27 utc | 57


My apologies. The freefall speed from 2,800,000m in ideal circumstances (sans resistance) based on this online calculator is nearly 27,000 kilometers per hour, compared tothe orbital 28,500 km/h

If this can fly up to 2800 and stops accelerating say even at 100km altitude (leaving it another 2700 to ride up, plus the horizontal V), then it's only slightly suborbital it should be able to reach most places in North America. Sounds like a real ICBM.

I now don't understand the "Alaska only" range assumption.

Posted by: Quadriad | Jul 5 2017 2:45 utc | 58

An intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) is a guided ballistic missile with a minimum range of 5,500 kilometres

An intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM) is a ballistic missile with a range of 3,000–5,500 km

Interesting that both Russia and US are calling it an LRBM.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 5 2017 3:20 utc | 59


Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 5 2017 3:22 utc | 60

October 18, 1994 Remarks on the Nuclear Agreement With North Korea William J. Clinton

Good afternoon. I am pleased that the United States and North Korea yesterday reached agreement on the text of a framework document on North Korea's nuclear program. This agreement will help to achieve a longstanding and vital American objective: an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula. This agreement is good for the United States, good for our allies, and good for the safety of the entire world. It reduces the danger of the threat of nuclear spreading in the region. It's a crucial step toward drawing North Korea into the global community.

Posted by: Brian | Jul 5 2017 3:56 utc | 61

The path out of the impasse is very clear.

Have President Moon invite Chinese troops into South Korea and then kick the US troops out.

After that is done reunification talks can start in earnest with all parties actually interested in achieving reunification.

Posted by: Julian | Jul 5 2017 4:08 utc | 62

Grieved @48--

Thanks for your reply! When I did rather deep study into China and Eurasia as a whole during the latter half of the 1990s, it became very clear that the 2100s would be The Asian Century--not just China's. And Russia is a very big part of Asia. The current Putin/Xi summit is probably more important than the upcoming G-20,

But not only is it a shift from The American Century to The Asian Century, there is also a Paradigm Shift that's in the process of occurring demanding cooperative equalitarian cultures instead of top-down corporative-authoritarian types as being the formula for success.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 5 2017 4:27 utc | 63

@54 skuppers

The ISS needs to maintain an orbital velocity of 7.66 km/s to avoid falling into the Earth.
The required velocity to maintain orbit depends on how far out the orbit is - the closer you are to Earth, the faster you have to be going in order to maintain your altitude.

Regarding the ICBM, there is also the possibility that NK remotely killed the engine before allowing it to go any higher. Perhaps a calculated threat, in advance of the G20? Not enough to cause widespread major panic (which would absolutely require a US response), but enough to raise tensions.

Posted by: ragehead | Jul 5 2017 5:38 utc | 64

...Moscow and Beijing have agreed that North Korea should freeze its nuclear and missile programs, while the US and South Korea should abstain from holding war games in the region, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.
“We’ve agreed to promote our joint initiative, based on Russian step-by-step Korean settlement plan and Chinese ideas to simultaneously freeze North Korean nuclear and missile activities, and US and South Korean joint military drills,” Putin said at a press conference after meeting with China’s leader, Xi Jinping, in Moscow....
China and Russia have been holding this stance for sometime now. The wording is freeze. Leaves NK with its current missiles and nukes. I wonder if this is a method of steadily increasing pressure on the US until eventually the US blinks and begins to step back?
Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 4, 2017 6:09:36 PM | 41

I'm wondering if Russia & China are stepping into a trap with their step-by-step stance. The danger is that in going along with the Yankees that the No 1 priority is to halt NK's Nuke & Missile programs, they're setting themselves up for a Palestinian-type FAIL.
i.e. The Yankees want the Nuke & Missile programs stopped as an end-game and if they achieve that then they don't really care what else happens in NK.

So they've set their No 1 priority as a pre-condition to further 'negotiations'. The Jews have been pulling this sort of cheap trick on the Palestinians for more than 70 years and it's beginning to look as though it's going to work just as well with Russia and China as it has with the Palestinians.
Russia and China should, imo, be saying that we're not thinking about, or discussing, Nukes & Missiles until the issue of Yankee Provocations and anti-NK bullshit have been thoroughly aired, examined and resolved, one way or another.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 5 2017 6:03 utc | 65

The uninformed nattering about orbital vs sub-orbital velocity for the NK Missile is pointless and irritating. Logic would suggest that no-one wants his/her/its ICBM to reach orbital velocity because if it went into orbit then it would have to have retro-rockets to get it out of orbit. So the velocity of all ICBMs must, of necessity and simplicity, be sub-orbital.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 5 2017 6:30 utc | 66

peter au @36: An interesting part of the Putin Stone interviews - Putin said it was US nuke scientists themselves that passed information onto the USSR to allow them to quickly demonstrate a working nuke.

I too noticed that statement. Not sure what Putin was saying here. My understanding was that it was Klaus Fuchs (an expatriate German physicist who worked at Los Alamos during WWII) who let the Russians know what the US had learned about atomic bombs. Of course the Russians had captured many high energy German physicists after WWII as well as their own home grown scientists that understood the fission science even if they lacked the engineering knowledge that was developed at Los Alamos. Maybe that was what Putin was referring to.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 5 2017 6:40 utc | 67

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 5, 2017 2:40:55 AM | 67

It's much simpler than that. Putin was insinuating that the very clever ppl at Los Alamos suspected that the Yankees for whom they were working were utterly and completely insane and decided to hedge their bets. Amusingly, their fears were confirmed at Nagasaki and Hiroshima...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 5 2017 6:57 utc | 68

The Russians report the missile as having reached a much lower altitude, that may be basis for their IRBM claim.

Posted by: Paul Cockshott | Jul 5 2017 7:03 utc | 69

Klaus Fuchs provided the UK and the USSR with the details of the plutonium implosion weapon. He was tried as a traitor by the British, but as an expatriate German anti Nazi he owed no special allegiance to any one of the Allies, his sympathy with them was dependent on their anti Hitler role.

Posted by: Paul Cockshott | Jul 5 2017 7:08 utc | 70

| @ ToivoS | Jul 4, 2017 6:13:35 PM | 42

The quote you mention, I recall from the '50's as well, it appeared many times in The New Yorker magazine if that might help pinpoint the time. Actually that quote informs my opinion about Piketty's Capital, In the Twenty-first Century. I found Piketty's opus to be enlightening up to the point Piketty started prescribing solutions, at which point I would challenge Piketty to produce a French Republic that works before his prescription be considered. That, of course will get me in deep dodo with the Franco - Francophile contingent of this readership - so be it.

@ Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 5, 2017 2:30:15 AM | 66

It seems to me the definition of 'ballistic' is just as you say - sub-orbital. Funny that.

@ ToivoS | Jul 5, 2017 2:40:55 AM | 67

Unless the knowledge of physics, particularly the nuclear variety changes between Los Alamos and wherever in the Soviet Union, it is inconceivable that knowledge and developing the technology to effect that knowledge could be contained. It is the hubris of certain ideologies to consider anyone but themselves smart enough to live. It is morally reprehensible Julius and Ethel Rosenberg lost their lives to such idiocy. Some facts are universal and can be discovered at will, certainly the Soviet Union had such will

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 5 2017 8:08 utc | 71

@71 That is valid enough. At the first meeting between UK and US atomic weapons designers to exchange information in 1958 someone on the US side remarked that they had learned nothing because as it turned out the laws of physics were the same on both sides of the atlantic. But on the other hand some technical clues can help. Reputedly one of the big problems the UK scientists faced with the plutonium device was the problem of how to cast the material, Penny told them to alloy it with Gallium, the reason for which was not evident at the time, and was apparently a confidential trade secret conveyed to him by Fuchs.

Posted by: Paul Cockshott | Jul 5 2017 11:13 utc | 72

NK previously offered to give up nuclear ambitions in return for a cease on US / SK operations. The US refused. All blame for the current situation squarely lies on US shoulders.

Posted by: insanity | Jul 5 2017 11:14 utc | 73

So tiresome reading the nuclear-warmed west whine about this issue. And now Trump and South Korea fire missiles too, so why blame NK for wanting this weapon that is actually protecting themselves from dangerous Trump&Nato.

Posted by: Anoynous | Jul 5 2017 11:29 utc | 74

Anoynous | Jul 5, 2017 7:29:36 AM | 74

Oh so true; boring even...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 5 2017 11:43 utc | 75

In 1957 the USSR put a little shiny ball called Sputnik into orbit and the USA was aghast. Why? Because it meant that the Soviets, whose Airforce could not yet reach North America unless on a suicide mission, had the capability bring a nuke down onto any American base or city in a matter of minutes.

The NKorean monarchy is shooting off a missile every week or two. Once a missile gets going high and fast enough it cant be shot down and warheads re-entering the atmosphere are impossible to shoot down. THAAD is deployed to try and shoot down a NK missile right after take off before its too late, but the US doesnt know if a missile firing is the real thing or just another test.

Note that a few days ago Congress approved the formation of the US Space Command to make war in space. Lasers and Star Wars come to life.

Posted by: Daniel Bruno | Jul 5 2017 12:19 utc | 76

@45 - All Wars Are Bankers' Wars By Michael Rivero

I know many people have a great deal of difficulty comprehending just how many wars are started for no other purpose than to force private central banks onto nations, so let me share a few examples, so that you understand why the US Government is mired in so many wars against so many foreign nations. There is ample precedent for this.

Posted by: Brian | Jul 5 2017 12:28 utc | 77

I believe NK launched a satellite into orbit early 2016

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 5 2017 13:31 utc | 78

Daniel Bruno | Jul 5, 2017 8:19:47 AM | 76

Utter crap; Sputnik meant no such thing.
Just where do you come up with this shit?

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 5 2017 13:33 utc | 79

Sputnik's launch freaked out the U.S. because it showed the U.S. was behind the USSR in the space race; and the next few years exemplified that even more; first man in space; first space walk, first woman in space, etc..
It demonstrated an excellence in technology the U.S. couldn't match at that time...
And frankly; it still exists today...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 5 2017 13:42 utc | 80

Daniel Bruno | Jul 5, 2017 8:19:47 AM | 76
Utter crap; Sputnik meant no such thing.
Just where do you come up with this shit?
Posted by: V. Arnold | Jul 5, 2017 9:33:04 AM | 79

Here, perhaps?

I will admit that when my schoolmate, Ron, and I were getting parental permission to watch Sputnik at odd night-time hours, and listen to its beeps on his family's short-wave radio, the last thing we were thinking about was ICBMs and Nukes. However, in 1959-60 the classmate at my next school was AmeriKKKan and his favourite joke was the bomb shelter in the yard of the family home in California. There was a sequence to the joke. He'd draw a square on a piece of paper depicting the main features of the shelter and the finishing touch was "this red button, up high on the wall opposite the door".
Someone would always ask "and what's the red button for?"
"You drag this stool over to the floor beneath the red button, climb up on it and push the button with your nose to stop yourself going crazy with boredom waiting for the All Clear."

That's only 2 to 3 years after Sputnik, which makes Daniel Bruno's story sound quite plausible...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 5 2017 14:19 utc | 81

I'm not great at physics, but here some are overlooking some pretty simple stuff, so:

(With respect to orbit, ICBMS, velocity etc)

The velocity of a missile is not the only thing that determines whether or not it goes into orbit, trajectory (here I mean by _trajectory_ angle from the plane of the earth's surface at a point) matters also. If I shoot a missile straight up (90 degrees from the plane) at 'orbital' velocity, the missile might well go up to some thousands of km before getting slowed down to 0 velocity, at which point it will start plummeting back to earth. The earth below it might have rotated somewhat in that time, but otherwise (and weather and other stuff), in principle, it will fall on the same spot it was launched from. If it's velocity is great enough it has 'escape velocity', and won't return. If you want some orbit, you need to pull that angle away from 90 degrees. Space shuttle launches for example broadly speaking were probably (total guess) more like 20 degrees trajectory. It starts out going straight up, but very soon starts developing velocity in a closer angle to the surface plane. I was puzzled by reports of NK's missile reaching altitudes of ~2000 miles, but it makes some sense. Engineers may just need to test the rocket's capabilities and they want the telemetry/data available from Korean peninsula ground stations (IR telescopes, also comms links). If they had the missile land out in the Pacific somewhere there would be political hell to pay (political issue), much higher chance of forcing an American attack, but also, even those political/military risks aside, they want to ensure as much as possible reliable telemetry on the project, so it makes sense to send it straight up (roughly) and have it land relatively nearby, simply because it simplifies the diagnostic process, indeed the further away it gets more likely telemetry to be jammed by USMil.

Posted by: newleaf | Jul 5 2017 14:28 utc | 82

Grieved | Jul 4, 2017 8:06:20 PM | 48

Thanks for the correction on the Zhou Enlai exchange. I was relying on my memory from 30 or so years back. Your version is even better.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 5 2017 16:08 utc | 83

On CNN, Trump is saying that the US and regional powers are contemplating steps against NK. It never occurs to him
that it is this very attitude that forces NK into a cornered animal behavior.

Bullies never learn that respecting others leads to gracious living.

Posted by: CarlD | Jul 5 2017 18:28 utc | 84

So the Heritage Foundation pipsqueaker aka US Amb at the UN is biatching about the missile :

Do we have another prima donna à la Susan Rice?

Posted by: Yul | Jul 5 2017 18:36 utc | 85


What we have is an overeager hipster trying to outdo other warhawks without fear of ridicule.

Posted by: CarlD | Jul 5 2017 19:13 utc | 86

Joint statement by Russia and China on North Korea released, and discussed,

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 5 2017 20:21 utc | 87

Monolycus, please check in...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 5 2017 20:40 utc | 88

Trump should cease the tweeting of fake red lines.

Posted by: JSonofa | Jul 5 2017 21:58 utc | 89

following up on the misplaced @32 at 'the saudi-qatar spat' thread ...

US refuses to stop military exercises on North Korean peninsula, after Russia's plea

The US does not intend to refrain from military exercises in the Korean peninsula, despite the appeal of Russia and China, the Pentagon told reporters.

"No, we're not going to stop," - said Jeff Davis, on the question of whether the US is going to make some changes to the plan of joint exercises with allies in the region.

so its up to president moon of south korea to stop taking part in joint exercises with the usofa.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 6 2017 2:08 utc | 90

It seems to me that western media claims of Russia & China stating Korea should dease futher overt development of nukes n rockets may have a kernel of veracity. The Koreans have achieved their primary goal of demonstrating any attempt by amerika to move beyond their war 'games' into an attack upon Korea either by amerika or that puppet to the south of sovereign Korea will have drastic consequences - so "hands off". If there are any issues around portability of the thermonuclear devise or range of the ICBM they can most probably be worked through without further testing.
That doesn't mean that this is all over however - far from it.
It is helpful to remember that in a sane world Korea having capacity to protect itself would mean that further imperialist attempt would cease, but we don't live in a sane world we live in one where absolutists in charge of financiers and their subservient corporations are so crazed with megalomania that they regard being placed in check as a direct affront.

Right now the pox faced arse-lickers whose job description is to sate the desires of their meglomaniacal masters will be hard at work devising strategies they believe will embarrass, upset, humiliate and discomfort Korea's leadership without being so egregious or provocative that nuclear retaliation could be considered a reasonable response.
One thing that immediately strikes anyone who bothers to study the history of Korean amerikan relations is that despite the decades of biological warfare, torture, destruction of every building from domestic dwelling to hospital by amerika, Korea's response has always been a carefully thought through measured and reasonable riposte.

Hopefully the most likely outcome of any such exercise in amerikan arrogance will be a number of 'popcorn moments' Ones where we the humans, get to watch these attempts at humiliation fail simply because the dullard enablers turned strategic planners lack sufficient insight into the culture & belief system of their targets to do more that provoke a kind of wry amusement. Then we can drag out the Act II & munch - yeah, yeah I know unhealthy but brown bagging it lacks the irony which the humiliation of greed obstructed demands.
The Korean leadership will have been considering this situation and the probable responses for a considerable time, so I reckon they will have a number of answers ready for whatever stupidities the trumpet's masters demand.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jul 6 2017 3:55 utc | 91

Trump and Kim are America's well-deserved karma, after all you don't get away with slaughtering over a million people in the Middle East and then get to pretend you're the global beacon of light and moral standard bearer of freedom and democracy and leader of the free world and all that bullshit that curiously makes American great (not). Millions of people will lose their healthcare if Trump gets his way. Not that they'll be the ones who deserve that fate or to die from it or be bankrupt by serious illness. No, it'll be Democrats who corrupted liberalism and tried and are still trying to peddle neo-liberalism in its place and who show unconditional love for the criminal Zionist state and it'll be all the unhinged redneck, bible thumping, gun-toting loons who believe that Trump can resurrect a dying coal industry and all those patriotic zealots who send their children to die for Neocon domination and every complacent, superficial American who's ignorant hubris is so spectacularly marketed. They're the ones who deserve WWIII. Trump is a reflection of what America has become: unhinged, gaudy, hypocritical and morally depraved.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 6 2017 11:10 utc | 92

Four possible outcomes.
1) This is all bullshit and things continue as normal.
2) China Russia bend their knee before the might of the US.
3) US is kicked of the Korean peninsular
4) MAD.

1,3 and 4 seem most probable.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 7 2017 9:16 utc | 93

I was over at SST, soaking up some of Pat Lang's (Millennialist?) "wisdom" in the Forget The ME - Think Korea, thread and couldn't help noticing the Fuzzy Logic and laughable contradictions in his self-indulgent response to b @ 07 July 2017 at 07:18 AM.
I'm not sure what the Military does teach the ppl it brainwashes but it certainly does NOT teach them to think, or communicate, clearly and logically.
No wonder Military outfits are perceived by so many civilians as disasters waiting to happen.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 7 2017 15:06 utc | 94
The Koreans are going to destroy the USA. The ICBM is just the distraction. They will do it in a totally different matter. I shall say no more since I want it to happen! I have known this for 6 years now.
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything" - Albert Einstein

Posted by: Thucydides | Jul 7 2017 20:43 utc | 95

@Circe @92 Exactly! They deserve it. All of them. They chose death! The curse. For themselves and their seed, children, offspring. God is not mocked! There is always a POINT in your life you decide to THINK for yourself or being to lazy to think for yourself and just CONSUME. This choice can become your undoing.

Posted by: Thucydides | Jul 13 2017 1:20 utc | 96

caution, spelling pedant alert, ahead.... "reign in" should be "rein in" and easy error to make as "rain, rein, reign". Cheers.

Posted by: stevelaudig | Jul 13 2017 16:13 utc | 97

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