Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 28, 2017

Open Thread 2017-17

News & views ...

Posted by b on April 28, 2017 at 18:10 UTC | Permalink

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John Gilberts 102

All five eyes and other vassals will be the same. If the US goes down western financial System goes down. Pensions, superannuation, investments and so forth. For this reason, all countries that rely on the US financial system will always side with the US.

Posted by: Peter AU | Apr 30 2017 7:50 utc | 101

Posted by: Philippe | Apr 29, 2017 8:51:41 PM | 88
(The power of French Presidents)

Thanks very much for sharing your perspective. It included several terms which were used in the F24 discussion of which 'cohabitation' is the most notable. The discussion concluded that Chirac, of all recent Fr presidents, had the most freedom to navigate The System and reinforced that opinion with a brief clip of him berating, and questioning the sanity of, Jews in Palestine during a visit there.
Chiraq's "He missed a wonderful opportunity to shut up" quip made him my all-time favourite Fr President.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 30 2017 8:27 utc | 102

@98 marko

yes ... thanks for the link.

that fir's/postol's latest&greatest makes quite a bit of the french identification of the sarin residues they received from somewhere with 'syrian government sarin'.

the authors of the french report rely upon the presence of hexamine in those residues as the syrian 'tell', and postol - with the aid of 'Ålke Sellström, the Head of the UN Team that Inspected the Site of the Damascus Nerve Agent Attack of August 21, 2013' - demolishes that connection. the connection was apparently the work of the bellingcat guy, originally.

From: Åke Sellström

Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 9:44 AM


Subject: SV: An Inquiry Into a Small Technical Matter

Dear Professor Postol,

The presence of hexamine may mean that this substance was used as scavanger for protons when producing sarin. It is a product simple to get hold of and in no way conclusively points to the government. In addition hexamin found in samples may be derived from other sources for example, explosives.

All the best

Åke Sellström

i don't even get that far ... where did the sarin residues containing hexamine - and all sarin residue relying on explosives to be 'aerosolized' will contain hexamine - come from? there is no chain of custody even offered ...

France has deployed the required resources to obtain its own samples from the alleged sarin attack on 4 April 2017 in Idlib Governorate.

that's it. 'required resources'. they bought it from al-cia-duh/erdogan?

postel's conclusion with 'respect' to both the whr and the fir is that they were prepared, not by 'intelligence' analysts, but by political 'spin' doctors, used to printing in the tnc msm and never being challenged on any grounds at all.

i think he's right. this stuff hasn't a leg to stand on. makes no difference to the tnc msm ... just run up the volume and play it on every channel.

no one 'believes' the lies in commercial advertisements, which use the exact same m.o., but they buy the stuff anyway. that's 'ok' if you have 'too much money' and feel you have to throw it away on something, so it might as well be on what everyone else i 'buying' ...

but buying a lie on a war ... people ought to notice the results nine-months down the road and connect them with their behaviour nine-months prior. there's a whole pastel of these brats running around now, 17 years after the beginning of the new american century.

people need to exercise a little 'birth control' on the production of us wars. no matter what the neocon fundamentalists say, contraception ... and abortion are both legal.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 9:02 utc | 103

@ Philippe.

Love your Micron, by the way.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 30 2017 9:12 utc | 104

@ Hoarsewhisperer - 104

Yeah, Chirac (and Mitterand before him), but especially Chirac was an in-and-in insider. He had been involved in all positions, since the time of De Gaule. That is where the real power of a president lies of course, like everywhere. Micron, as the upstart he is, doesn’t have the depth of the connections. And that makes him much more captive to the powers (the one power center actually, as far as I can tell) that are pushing him. A France based friend quipped to me via email: “C’est un coup de com”, loosely translated as “a PR operation”.


:-) Use it! Steal it! Free!

Posted by: Philippe | Apr 30 2017 9:53 utc | 105

@105 philippe

can you write-in the name of any frenchman/woman of age for president?

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 10:31 utc | 106

Macron, next F pres:

26.04. 17. "J’ai été très clair sur le sujet depuis le début. Je condamne avec la plus grande fermeté l’utilisation d’armes chimiques par le régime de Bachar el-Assad. Cela contrevient d’une part au Droit International et d’autre part aux accords de 2013. Et donc si je suis élu président de la République, je prendrai les dispositions en lien avec la coalition et, si possible sous mandat de l’ONU mais même sans mandat de l’ONU pour neutraliser ses capacités chimiques du régime de Bachar el-Assad."

=> Let me be clear, as i have been since the beginning, i condemn, with great firmness, the use of chemical WMD by the el-Assad’s régime. The action violates Int’l Law and the 2013 accords. If i am elected Pres., i will take measures, within the coalition, and if possible, under a UN mandate, or even without it, to neutralise the chemical capacities of the al-Assad régime.

9.12.2016: (trans), Macron: France must stop considering the removal of el-Assad as a pre-condition for the organisation of negotiations concerning the inter-Syrian conflict.

Macron lets it be understood (without saying so himself) that Moscow has implemented cyber attacks ‘on his party’, though all this is innuendo etc.

Le Figaro

He has refused to accredit RT (quite how, why, and for what is mysterious)

Daily Beast

To sum up, Macron is no fool.

He will follow the Atlantacist line, the pro-EU line, with some Frenchie flavor sprinkled about, he will do his best to adopt very pragmatic stances. How that works out in the power-structure of 2017, 18 -> …, how he will react to being part of it, etc. is impossible to predict.

Reading some of his decl. closely I understood that his ‘high’ scores are in part due to Int’l politics and the desire — hope that F elect an ‘efficient’ ambassador, someone who can represent them on the Intl. stage, have credibility, negotiate, stand up, flash a presence.

Hollande was v. poor domestically, totally incompetent internationally; Sarkozy at least made a lot of noise, yet the distractions lead nowhere. Macron promises a better future on that rubric.

Posted by: Noir22 | Apr 30 2017 13:51 utc | 107

@95jfl @96marko and @98James . . . i appreciate the response. thanks fellas.

Posted by: au | Apr 30 2017 14:04 utc | 108

@108 marko

i made an ordinary, more readily-manipulated, spreadsheet of the fri appendix' table - their list of ALLEGATIONS OF USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN SYRIA SINCE 2012 (pdf). have no idea how accurate that list is, along any dimension - certainly inaccurate along the dimensions we've been discussing here - but stats are always interesting.

month count
jan 5
feb 6
mar 12
apr 38
may 15
jun 9
jul 3
aug 10
sep 10
oct 6
nov 10
dec 6

perp count
SSaf 5
SSp 2
SCp 22
DMa 3
al-CIAda 98

SSaf = Syrian government sarin asserted by French
SSp = Syrian government sarin presumed by ... someone
SSC = Syrian government chlorine presumed by ... someone
DMa = Dae'sh mustard gas attributed by ... someone
al-CIAda = 'moderate rebels' - funded, trained, equipped by us/nato/ksa/qatar/israel/turkey

... by process of elimination, i assigned all the 'chemical attacks' that weren't assigned to assad or to daesh to al-CIAda ... i.e. to the 'moderate rebels' ... the only other group of assassins on the syrian field.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 15:24 utc | 109


sorry ... at au, i guess, not marko. or at au and marko.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 15:26 utc | 110


and james, of course, and any one else interested ... as always. feel free to skip the string of comments if you are not ... as always.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 15:27 utc | 111

Thanks Jen @84!

Posted by: spudski | Apr 30 2017 15:28 utc | 112

@107 noirette

i'm sure you know better than i what is about to befall france, and europe, but i hope that mlp has the sense to campaign against the war ... and i hope she wins.

not that she will be better than micron, but that she will break up the unbroken string of neolibraconian wins in france and europe. although, like the rump she will probably fail there as well.

micron is obamaesque, and we certainly don't need another 'smart' liar like Himself anywhere on the planet.

thanks very much for you comment, and comments ... always a delight to read.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2017 15:39 utc | 113

@james 98

I remember Trump said similar things ('no more interventions'/ 'drain the swamp') before being elected...and yet today we see a far more aggressive foreign policy than under Obama, and a more corporate- or money-friendly economic policy.

It's why they're called populists: Promising everyone what they want to hear, then quickly forgetting about it. The only surprising thing is that so many people still fall for this.

Posted by: smuks | Apr 30 2017 15:49 utc | 114

Posted by: smuks | Apr 30, 2017 11:49:23 AM | 114

The only surprising thing is that so many people still fall for this.

Well, actually, the (public) majority did not fall for DJT smooth talk, so they voted for Hillary, the candidate who promised more aggressive foreign policy and with proven record for being very money friendly. Too bad that did now work for her, we would be in the same situation now, but not disappointed. However, we might have had regrets - if Donnie won maybe would be better? The question is, do we prefer to be disappointed, or to have regrets? The key thing is there is no third option, and that is a real problem.

Posted by: hopehely | Apr 30 2017 16:13 utc | 115

@ 107 Noirette22

Macron promises …, So did Barak Obama. Children of the same cloven hooved litter, producing the same poop. May France dodge that bullet, the U.S. didn't and see what happened. What should be terrifying, should Micron win, is the Macronomics that is part of the package; France will pray for deliverance from austerity before he is finished.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Apr 30 2017 16:28 utc | 116

@109 u da man JFL thanks for the spreadsheet. thanks

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2017 17:35 utc | 117

@108 au.. i encourage you and others to review @97 liams links if you haven't already.. that gives the lie to this white helmet propaganda craze the us/uk and etc have paid into..

@109 jfl.. that is cool you did that.. the only ones that seem to count are the one's that can be conveyed with assad responsible.. all the headchopper chem type attacks are ignored by the western msm..

@114 smuks... according to you, who is the populist here? macron or le pen? i am curious.. i am going to simplify my view on where we are at politically all as i see it.. it goes along the financial lines that psychohistorian (sp?) paints.. until we figure out how to rid ourselves of these financial overlords, we ain't going anywhere democratically speaking.. whether macron or le pen gets elected - the situation in france will continue to go down a road that is in no one's best interest.. until the world figures out how to get beyond greed, we will continue to be struggling with some form of slavery..

i am simplifying things here, but this is essentially how i see it. - obama - populist? was that good or bad? did anything much change? trump - populist? i am not sure, but regardless it seems much worse under him at present.. i reserve the right to be called naive and idealistic.. tell me how any of these politicians is going to rid the planet of the focus on money which has gotten much worse in my lifetime as i have experienced it? as i see it the whole system needs to come down as it is built up on falsehood...

Posted by: james | Apr 30 2017 18:15 utc | 118

jfl, as the ‘only’ gingerly- possibly... anti-war candidate (on the face of it) Marine LP deserves 100% support.

But she cannot win. Therefore my posts about Macron.

Formerly T-bear, yes empty promises by Obomba, and Macron is a version of that pol strand. Macron though hasn’t promised anything much, empty speeches and posturing etc. is his squeeze-by game.

Macron will implement more so-called ‘austerity’ which will be labelled with other names, liberalising, unlocking the economy, as per usual, etc. He will punt some ‘new’ proposals and will churn things around, for not much change - just like the el-Khomri law, which he wrote. 1/8 of France thought the law was great, 1/3 were rioting in the streets, and then what? ... Provided he can gather, after the legislative elections (June), a parliamentary ‘majority’ or ‘coalition’ together, which should be easy in view of the massive PTB / overall support.

Heh practically the only important W figure who hasn’t kissed his hand or a** is Queen Liz :)

Hope springs eternal. Obama, Trump were both elected versions of hopi-changi-ness, Macron as well. The underlying insuperable challenges such as dire economic inequality (leads to civil unrest, then civil war), global warming, degradation of the environment, invasions and destruction care of the Hegemon, ricochets from that, ridiculous economic models, etc. all lurk behind the dusty velvet red curtain while pretty boy Manu dances front stage.

Posted by: Noir22 | Apr 30 2017 19:44 utc | 119

|@ 119 Noirette22

Residing the other side of the Pyrenees from France, it is interesting to watch the efforts to maintain a political status quo at enormous social costs, many of which are yet to be acknowledged. Political power in Europe is tightly held by interests dependent upon a high return on their economic investments, those investments having monopolistic or a monopoly upon their underlying markets that automatically provides substantial income revenue. That income requires like investment to provide like income flows but the economic landscape does not provide private capital such opportunities, only public investments have that scope. Those have for the most part been privatised and little remains to be obtained other than a few public social insurance funds which are under critical attack - how else can zero or even negative interest rates be economically justified? The problem of justification can be avoided as long as the public hasn't a clue about economics or even an interest in finding out; and if they did want to know, a handy ersatz neoliberal catechism is ubiquitously available, there is no alternative. It will be on the rocks of ignorance that the culture will flounder, there is no alternative. Charlatans and demagogs will appear with brilliant sounding nostrums to solve this or that existential problem but not one will offer an actual solution; goldbugs are notorious for those gullible enough to believe the value of a lump of metal is money. Likewise those desiring to do away with the banking system when their own abuse of credit lies at fault. Banking worked remarkably well distributing credit until the system was made monopolistic with only a handful of great banking/financial organisations captured a very large fraction of the world's savings. The problem lies in the control of such entities and government is no longer available for that job. Absolute power does not self correct, it doesn't have to. That is the real problem and no politician will get on any stage to inform their public of that. Instead of 'turtles' all the way dow in this cosmos, it is lies, maybe this is the fulcrum to shift the cosmos for the grandkids' sake.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Apr 30 2017 20:59 utc | 120

@hopehely 115

Whoever is the figurehead, they need a lot of pressure from 'below' for anything to change. Had Clinton won, maybe the Sanders wing of her party had built such pressure, esp. after the midterms...I don't know. Trump does precisely what you would expect from such a guy, no reason to be disappointed.

@james 118

Le Pen is the populist for me. She pretends to fight against those financial interests, but would forget about that the day after her election, should she win. If you look around, it's what every right-winger does.
With Macron, at least it's WYSIWYG.
Also, please don't underestimate the divisive consequences a Le Pen victory would have for French society.

'How the system can come down' - don't worry, it definitely will; the question is how violently this will happen. If govts implement somewhat sensible and forward-looking policies, the transition can be fairly smooth. But for this to happen, we can't afford to have a narrow nationalist view, pitching one country against the others...

Posted by: smuks | May 1 2017 0:47 utc | 121

Turkey, Russia reach agreement on purchase of S-400 defense system

It emerged in November last year that Russia and Turkey were negotiating the deliveries of S-400 air defense missile systems and in March this year Russia’s state hi-tech corporation Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov said that Ankara had expressed its desire to obtain a loan from Russia on buying armaments, including antiaircraft missile complexes of this type.

lend erdogan the money to buy the s-400 systems for nato. that doesn't seem to be such a great idea to me.

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2017 2:03 utc | 122

@121 smuks.. thanks. it's going to be a slow grind or a quicker one, depending on who wins the french election.. looks like macron either way. @107 and 119 noirettes summation sounds about right to me.. i don't know if i am underestimating the consequences or a slow deterioration or a fast one...that is how i see the difference!

smuks, i see @120 ftb sums up my general view as expressed in the last couple of paragraphs of my @118.. i just don't see anything like what you suggest in the idea of gov'ts implementing sensible and forward looking policies, when they are beholden to corporations, financial in particular.. i just can't see it working out in the idealistic way you appear to suggest! i wish i could! i have given up on the present western political system and think a radical shift is needed.. i am in my early 60's, so maybe i am too jaded for my own good!

Posted by: james | May 1 2017 2:49 utc | 123

Re: Posted by: jfl | Apr 30, 2017 10:03:46 PM | 122

Seems insane.

So let me get this straight. Syria has this system? Or will Turkey be getting it ahead of Syria?

And if that is the case - what exactly do Syria/Iran think of this sort of deal?

Posted by: Julian | May 1 2017 2:57 utc | 124

RAAF Jindalee over the horizon radar,
it can detect a Boing 747 taking off from Changi airport, even a 'stealth' USAF fighter over Papua
new Guinea.
Yet it had nothing on Mh370 ?


Posted by: denk | May 1 2017 4:33 utc | 125

'In the control room I was looking over the shoulder of a young operator who obviously has immense regard for the system.
He said “look at this as an image appeared on the monitor
“I can tell you that that is a Boeing 747 taking off from Changi Airport in Singapore but unfortunately I can’t tell you which airline owns it”.
Singapore is 4100 km from Alice Springs as the crow flies !
On another visit the operator told of an incident
which happened over Papua New Guinea. The RAAF was aware of a test flight around the world of the US Air Force F-117 Night hawk stealth
attack aircraft 5
. The idea was that the US Air Force would fly the aircraft roughly around the Equator just to prove that nobody could see it on radar. The operator told me that they picked up the aircraft over New Guinea and reported the sighting to the US Air Force
The Americans were flabbergasted but they knew that the report ed location of the aircraft was exactly where the aircraft was !

Posted by: denk | May 1 2017 4:41 utc | 126

A gesticulation but a revealing one
Macron on Frexit

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2017 7:35 utc | 127

re Mina

When I saw that, my immediate reaction that it was a classic Brexiter misinterpretation of what Macron actually said. If you haven't noticed (and you may not have picked up on it), the BBC has been heavily supporting Marine Le Pen. There are daily favourable stories, and very little about Macron. Quite why is not obvious, but it probably lies in the region of government orders, or they think that that is what the Brexit nutters want (and they're supposed to be the majority: the BBC used to lead opinion, no longer).

In any case, what Macron said is hardly new. What Macron said is the position of most western European politicians, if you remove the spin put on the story. The EU does have to be reformed. Though not necessarily in a formal way. A two-speed Europe is coming, everybody recognises it. That's what the French candidates (apart from Le Pen) have been saying. But the BBC wants you to think that France is about to Frexit, and the EU is on the point of disappearing down the drain. It's what all the Brexiters fervently wish for, in and out of British govt. Brexiters fervent wishes overflow their reality appreciation.

Craig Murray has been rightly blogging about the right-wing biases of the BBC. and elsewhere on his blog.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 1 2017 8:22 utc | 128

@127 @128

i'd imagine it's just micron lying, taking what wind he can out of mlp's sails. must mean 'his' pollsters are nervous.

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2017 10:07 utc | 129

i am very fine with a two speed europe

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2017 10:56 utc | 130


but a 'two-speed europe' is the german model, north exploiting south. you're ok with that? with micron on cruise control france too will be headed for her lower gear, don't you think? or do you think the french 'elite' will be able to save themselves at the rest of france's expense?

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2017 12:53 utc | 131

Formerly T-bear at 120, I agree with what you wrote 98%. In France, events are deeply rooted in the ‘economy’, money systems, ressource ownership, attribution of value and thus power, etc., in the direction you detail. (As so in GB, see Brexit, USA Trump, und so weiter…)

Contemp. politics and analysis of the ‘economy’ (should be part of Social anthropology, say, as imho even the ‘moderns’ -e.g. MMT- etc. while making stabs just aren’t illuminating enough, because the division between politics and the ‘economy’ as a ‘pure, circumscribed’ field is upheld …) is willfully obscured, confused, manipulated and transformed by front-stage spectacle rah rah raucous political theatre. With, note, accusations and not praise…like…oh anything.. racism, fascism, totalitarianism, communism, nationalism, patriotism, globalism (or its opposite) all being thrown about to fool us all.

Vid. “Les Pinçon-Charlot analysent le cas Emmanuel Macron” is worth a watch, generalist and not only about Manu. In F, 23 mins, 19 April 2017.

Posted by: Noir22 | May 1 2017 15:18 utc | 132


You haven't understood what two-speed Europe means. It doesn't mean a north-south split. It means a core of founder members moving forward, and the outer ring of new members, which the now-departing Brits (acting as agents for the US) were so keen on being admitted, left where they are. It's not a German concept, the French are in on it too. And it started quite a long time ago, before the Brexit referendum. It's a question of what is manageable in Europe.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 1 2017 15:36 utc | 133
Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
"F-117" redirects here. For other uses, see F-117 (disambiguation).
F-117 Nighthawk

F-117 flying over mountains in Nevada in 2002
Stealth attack aircraft
National origin
United States
Lockheed Corporation
First flight
18 June 1981
October 1983[1]
22 April 2008[2]
Primary user
United States Air Force
Number built
64 (5 YF-117As, 59 F-117As)
Unit cost
US$42.6 million (flyaway cost)
US$111.2 million (average cost)[3]
Developed from
Lockheed Have Blue
The Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk is a single-seat, twin-engine stealth attack aircraft that was developed by Lockheed's secretive Skunk Works division and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The F-117 was based on the Have Blue technology demonstrator, and was the first operational aircraft to be designed around stealth technology. The maiden flight of the Nighthawk took place in 1981, and the aircraft achieved initial operating capability status in 1983.[1] The Nighthawk was shrouded in secrecy until it was revealed to the public in 1988.[4]
The F-117 was widely publicized for its role in the Persian Gulf War of 1991. Although it was commonly referred to as the "Stealth Fighter", it was strictly an attack aircraft.[5] F-117s took part in the conflict in Yugoslavia, where one was shot down by a surface-to-air missile (SAM) on 27 March 1999; it was the only Nighthawk to be lost in combat. The U.S. Air Force retired the F-117 on 22 April 2008, primarily due to the fielding of the F-22 Raptor. Sixty-four F-117s were built, 59 of which were production versions, with the other five being demonstrators/prototypes.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 1 2017 15:42 utc | 134

mina @ 127. some glitch, yr link re. Macron, i couldn’t view.

Looking for it, I found this from a year ago, April 17, 2016. 9 mins, heh, very clear. In English.

Emmanuel Macron on EU Referendum and Hinkley Point - BBC News

Posted by: Noir22 | May 1 2017 15:50 utc | 135


Carpenter skills required; materials provided to build a large sand box with flipper toys for lil Kim and lil Donny:

Posted by: likklemore | May 1 2017 16:55 utc | 136

@136 full post did not print.

Bloomberg News reports

Trump Says He’d Meet With Kim Jong Un Under Right Circumstances

‘I would be honored to do it’ under the right circumstances

Posted by: likklemore | May 1 2017 17:04 utc | 137

@ 132

Oh good! A gift! Another of life's treasures, the mystery of what the 2% might be. ;-P

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | May 1 2017 17:10 utc | 138

if there is to be a EU, 2 speed is better than ending up with Hungarians and Polish who show the way by opposing a "sorry we don't take migrants coz our catholic ethics forbids it"

Laguerre, the BBC and French media puts Le Pen on the front page everywhere because that's the perfect way to have enough people panic and go vote for Macron. it worked for the first round.

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2017 17:11 utc | 139

Maybe they received an angry phonecall from Henri de Castries?
i still find it with search "macron" on the bbc news website
France election: Macron says EU must reform or face 'Frexit'

…Emmanuel Macron pledges EU reform if elected The front-runner in the French… of "Frexit". Pro-EU centrist Emmanuel Macron made the comments as he and his far-right… Pen has meanwhile accused Mr Macron of being merely more of the same. Ms Le Pen…

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2017 17:14 utc | 140

Dr Mahathir,
'Oz and murkka knew the whereabout of mh370' !

Aviation week concurred,
'Jindalee./Pine Gap have the ability to track the airliner, why is Oz keeping mum ' ?

Australian DOO[ffense],
'No comment' !

No doubt it's on order from murkka.
But Wasnt Washington legally , not to mention morally, bound to shed light on the fate of the airliner ?

I bet the excuse was ' not to compromise on national security'

Why must somebody die every time the west invoke their god damned 'national interest/security' ?

Posted by: denk | May 1 2017 19:07 utc | 141

@ denk

Thanks for posting the piece on Jindalee/JORN
The over the horizon radar at Leonora would have tracked MH370 from start to finish if it had flown the path as put out by officialdom.

Posted by: Peter AU | May 1 2017 19:21 utc | 142

@142 peter au.. ditto - thanks denk.. dr. mahathir is a bright guy - ex leader of malaysia.. this disappearance story makes no sense on the surface... i haven't kept up with the theories connected to it. i recall visiting malaysia and asking about this.. apparently a section of the country think the usa was behind it, while another part think it went up into the sky into some religious type viewpoint of where it went.. this is going on memory from an actual malay that i spoke with about this - they spoke english quite well fortunately..

Posted by: james | May 1 2017 19:32 utc | 143

Trump's administration nixed the rule of his predecessors that school lunches should have lower levels of salt and higher levels (50%) of whole grains.

As reported by The Independent and New York Times. NYT cites governor of Indiana complaining that children there refuse to eat grits because "whole grain grits have dark flecks". To an European it is strange that "whole grains" are unusual and expensive in USA. Not throwing out part of the grain should make the product cheaper, and in my former homeland it is usually so, or the price is roughly similar (in the case of bread). In any case, how different are "whole grain grits" from regular?

I checked, a cornucopia of products and associated information. Folks, the amount of fiber in whole grain grits can be absolutely amazing!

"Our grits have over 7g fiber per 100mg"

Perhaps, as a child, I would also refuse to eat this suspicious product. 7000% of fiber!!!!

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 1 2017 20:01 utc | 144

Not that I particularly want to dispute with you, but in UK there's no support for Macron. They only care about Brexit, and the potential demise of the EU. That's what the Brexiters want.

Scaring people into voting for Macron is a French thing, not a British. My opinion, although I don't have a vote, is that France should not enter into the disaster that the UK is currently experiencing. If that means Macron, OK, he's not too bad.

Frankly, Macron is quite flexible, and he will adapt to what is necessary. Today he has become Eurosceptic, tomorrow may be not.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 1 2017 20:34 utc | 145

145 was directed at 139.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 1 2017 20:35 utc | 146

Trump seems to be listening to the complainers in the public. If he can/will diplomatically resolve the Nork conflict and work with Russia and China on resolving the middle east disaster, then we might have a bit of boom time economically.. that's just IMHO.

The problem is that Trump talks and then flops, so everything remains to be seen. I thought it was over after the tomahawk strikes in Syria, but Nassim Taleb's assessment is seeming to be more correct with each day passing

Posted by: aaaa | May 1 2017 23:36 utc | 147

another good article from elijah j. m. today on syria with regard to the south..

Posted by: james | May 1 2017 23:46 utc | 148

@james 123

There's really no need to be fatalistic imo, though things don't look good on many fronts. Of course the power of corporations (or rather of capital owners - companies aren't their own boss) is a huge problem and destroys democracy, but it can be tamed. Th. Roosevelt is probably the best historical example, currently there are positive signs e.g. banking regulation, introduction of a financial transaction tax (FTT) or debate on corporate taxation (BEPS). It's a constant struggle of 'money vs. the people' under capitalism, but the chances of democracy winning aren't that bad. The collapse of 2007 showed quite clearly who is more powerful.

As for Macron, I guess he is rational enough and will do what's necessary, in concert with other European govts. The EU is actually quite flexible and reforms itself all the time, the bigger risks being sudden shocks from who knows where.

@Laguerre 128

Thanks, very interesting. I'm not following BBC, only Guardian a bit. Seems like a lot of the English-language media is trying to present Le Pen as an acceptable candidate, which is quite disturbing. As you say, the Brexiters would certainly like the EU to go down in flames, but the BBC?

re Two-speed Europe: This has been a reality for 20+ years. We have Schengen, and we have a 'core EU' which is called 'Eurozone'.

Posted by: smuks | May 2 2017 1:26 utc | 149

Peter AU 142, James 143.

More on the Jindalee/PIne gap radars,

In 2002, two murkkan teachers were murdered in Indonesia, local police believed the culprit was the military, a FF.
Australia intel even intercepted indonesian army CIC ordering the hit, !

Washington intervened to absolve the army of the crime and frame the papua separatist movement for the murder instead, cuz it wanted Indonesia military on board the anti chinese alliance. !


'some Australian members of parliament were given a security briefing where a video conference intercept of two of the most senior Malaysian military commanders was proudly shown to demonstrate Australia’s electronic surveillance abilities, where it implied the ability to access some of the most sensitive military and diplomatic communications in the region.' [1]

Yet they had nuthin on mh370 ???

Some headlines in the past week...

Scientist says they've been searching in the wrong place all along...!

Australia suggested a new search saying it now has firm idea where's the doomed airplance....!

from british rags,
putin knows the whereabout of mh370,
NK hijacked mh370,


Posted by: denk | May 2 2017 2:21 utc | 150


still sounds like a split between the have-mores and the have-nots.

the eu is an unelected government. how can that possibly work in any actual human population's favor? in some subset's, surely.

Posted by: jfl | May 2 2017 6:33 utc | 151

Posted by: aaaa | May 1, 2017 7:36:01 PM | 147

I agree with your first par. He's throwing all kinds of Traditional wisdom up in the air and letting it fall where it may. And he's getting lots of feedback. And he does more listening than talking; never a bad thing.
There are lots of things going wrong with AmeriKKKa's madcap schemes.
SK seems to be tiring of being treated like a bunch of dimwits. Japan is conducting anti-NK naval patrols but far from Yankee patrols. Trump's suggestion of talking with Kim is unbelievably grown-up for an AmeriKKKan Prez. Perhaps he does listen to and respect Xi's opinion?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 2 2017 7:34 utc | 152

Laguerre, i was pointing at the French expat voters who read the bbc. Plus the kind of international touristic audience who visited Paris and thought it was all Arab and all black and has no clue about French colonies.

Posted by: MI | May 2 2017 7:42 utc | 153

Laguerre, i was pointing at the French expat voters who read the bbc. Plus the kind of international touristic audience who visited Paris and thought it was all Arab and all black and has no clue about French colonies.

Posted by: MII | May 2 2017 7:42 utc | 154

@152 Maybe I wrote too soon - Wilbur Ross just proclaims that the missiles were f*cking after-dinner entertainment?

Also, Trump's words don't seem to match American actions as strategic bombers trigger Un into new belligerent statements.

Posted by: aaaa | May 2 2017 14:21 utc | 155

@149 smuks.. thanks.. i have a darker view on world finances unfortunately.. at one time i might have believed that alan greenspan was like the wizard of oz, until i saw just how fictitious that was!! people in business suits working in banking have my greatest disregard! some of my astrologer friends are predicting a le pen win by default... maybe there are more then a few in france that hold the same level of mistrust of banker types - macron - that i do.. i guess we will see soon enough.

@150 denk.. thanks for these posts.. people generally don't ask enough questions.. the mh370 is a story that never made any sense to me.. the fact the mh17 happened after that was also quite weird.. almost like someone was out to get malaysia airlines or worse..

Posted by: james | May 2 2017 15:45 utc | 156

Via Xymphora...

Twenty Truths about Marine Le Pen
(and a few about Micron & some other alarming stuff)
From James Petras.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 2 2017 16:24 utc | 157

IS and FBI, a family story

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2017 17:44 utc | 158

james 143

' i recall visiting malaysia and asking about this.. apparently a section of the country think the usa was behind it, '

what, uncle sham again ?
well he practically earns that honor...

empire watch rule 1
'unitedsnake is always guilty....until proven innocent' !

in the mh370 case, i'd say it stinks to high heaven from day one !
Does uncle sham has the motives....?

you bet !

*Dr Mahathir called fukus terrorist states !
*asian financial melt down,
Mahathir lambasted soros for assault on asian currencies.
*tribunal in KL indicted Bush/cheney etc as war criminals.
*Obama's visit to KL failed to bludgeon malaysia into the asia pivot gang,
*Xi followed hot on the heel of obama , he was feted by both Najib and Mahathir.
uncle sham must be straining at his leash at that one !
Does U.S has the means ?

*I'd think so !

cui bono ?

ask dr mahathir,
'somebody is trying to drive a wedge bet KL AND beijing'

That's my very thought when i heard a malaysian airliner with 200 chinese nationals on board went 'missing.'

KL/beijing did get into a bitter spat following the 'accident'.

IN addition,
here'r some 'conspiracy theories' which sound plausible but unverifiable.

*to prevent state of art murkkan chip tech falling into chinese hands.
*to kidnap top chinese defence experts on board,
*soros exacting his pound of flesh !


historical backgrounder...

fukus covert/overt assaults on china has never stopped since 1949,
TW, tibet. , Xinjiang, SARS, bird flus, TAM, HK destabilisation, falun gong, terrorists attacks on chinese in africa, SEA, apak, ....

in particular,

CIA tried to bumped off chinese premier chou enlai in 1950 by air assasination, one of cia's fav wet job .
luckily chou missed the target plane, but 300 collateral damages went down to a chilling grave at the bottom of SCS.

then in 2009
china's top thermo nuclear scientist xiao xiang, who's the architect of china's nuclear aircraft carrier proj, died in an air 'accident' , while on his way home after completing a collaborative proj in brazil with his counterparts. eyewitness reported explosion in midair.
xiao was known a genius amongst his peers, his death dealt a serious blow to the progress of china's nuclear carrier proj.
what about that 'coincidence' theory ?

look at the big picture,
all these 'accidents' happened within six months after the Xi party in KL !

*QZ8501 [air asia]
*copter exploded,
*warsj led campaign on najib,

Apply ian fleming's fundamental law of probability !
'once an accidence......'
Math doesnt lies, i'd give it a 99.99% chance this mh370 tragedy is another black op courtesy of the unitedsnake.


Posted by: denk | May 2 2017 18:12 utc | 159

@158 mina.. from the article greene was "smart, articulate and obviously naive"... smart and obviously naive, lol.. i like that! perfect candidate for cia recruitment, lol..

@159 denk.. yeah - sounds like we are a couple of hardened anti-americans, lol.. there are many bright and forward thinking folks in the usa.. unfortunately they are not driving usa foreign policy one iota...

Posted by: james | May 2 2017 18:42 utc | 160

@james 156

Of course it's fictitious. It's a complete joke that we talk so much about 'money' which is nothing but a societal convention: Everybody agrees to take these 0s and 1s in the bank's computer very seriously, and that's the only reason why they're important.
What's real is people's basic needs, like food, housing, health, clean air and water, cultural and spiritual needs. 'Money' only "exists" because people believe it is there.

Macron is a ridiculous political lightweight, but unlike Le Pen, at least he is 'mostly harmless'.

Posted by: smuks | May 3 2017 0:53 utc | 161

Posted by: denk | May 2, 2017 2:12:36 PM | 159

Dr Mahathir also also famously said "Jews rule the World by proxy" and put his 'antisemitic' money where his mouth is by financing the ill-fated Mavi Marmara aid mission from Turkey to Gaza.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 3 2017 1:48 utc | 162

@161 smuks.. i wish the imf, world bank, international bank of settlements and etc - were fictitious too! they're not.. they're sledgehammers the senior shareholders - usa and western countries- use against those other countries that they want to control... financial sanctions still have implications and this is one of the areas it gets played out.. oil is still priced in usa$.. these are some of the perks thanks camp bretton agreement after ww2..

i'm talking the dynamics of world finance.. guess who wants to call the shots on this level? want to do a financial transaction with iran or russia? you may or may not be allowed to thanks these same financial dynamics that usa is always using as a hammer over other countries.. i wish it was a joke!! in a monopoly game, you want to corner the market ( while pontificating about democracy and freedom, lol!).. same deal is taking place on an international scale at present..

Posted by: james | May 3 2017 1:54 utc | 163

@163 james

grieved began with a link to Alasdair Mcleod analysis ... i only skimmed that until i noticed the link to PLA Strategist: The U.S. Uses Its Dollar to Dominate the World, which i had seen before entitled One belt, one road.

what had originally caught my eye was general qiao liang's 'discovery' of a capital pump operating in the us, pumping capital out during expansionary, what would be inflationary times, then pumping it back in during times of (us-induced) stress on the world economy. general qiao has the period at about 2:1, he puts the pump out at 10 years, and the pump in at 6. i don't know that there is enough data to generalize on the period of the phenomenon, but i think he's definitely on to something ... and you definitely won't read it in the tnc msm ... it's 'fake news' of the very first water :)

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 10:47 utc | 164

Posted by: jfl | May 3, 2017 6:47:03 AM | 164

The 'one belt, one road' article is interesting, especially the idea that online payment will end the role of capital in the future.

Posted by: somebody | May 3 2017 12:14 utc | 165

@165 somebody

see the view of modi and the googleplex for the promised (threatened) cashless society. the etherealization of invention ... was it toynbee who said that? ... the googleplex and financial capital together plan to etherealize money. i think they're the only ones with the requisite 'faith' to keep tinkerbelle alive, and theirs ... faithless faith, for truly they believe in nothing ... is far from sufficient to keep the tiny fairy going.

i'm just about to read michael hudson's Review of Steve Keen’s “Can we avoid another financial crisis?” i'll trade you all the west's 'theoretical economists' for one empiricist : michael hudson. and the first step is hardest step, having found one, one can find more.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 12:47 utc | 166

Russia Insider Staff: Will China force Saudis to dump dollar

Chinese tourists can use Alipay in Frankfurt airport - theoretically that would be possible for all shops interested in Chinese tourists - ie they can pay in Yuan in Germany. Electronic cash surely will be the end of currency, to extend that to capital is a bit of stretch though possible as a virtual exchange market would be difficult to organize but possible.

The stuff you can actually buy with Bitcoin is limited. It seems to be possible to launder Bitcoin via Nigeria though.

Posted by: somebody | May 3 2017 14:51 utc | 167

@164 jfl.. thanks for that and for your many other posts... the 2 last links in your post are the same, although they are formatted differently, but the same.. yes - that is what i am talking about!! many folks just don't see any of this.. it is beyond there scope of interest and typically so, including myself for a long time.. gotta run!

Posted by: james | May 3 2017 17:12 utc | 168

people get criticized for being 'gold bugs' and etc.. however, i like the article grieved linked to by alasdair macleod that you also like @164 jfl.. thanks for that and to grieved...

Posted by: james | May 3 2017 18:14 utc | 169

you also linked..

Posted by: james | May 3 2017 18:15 utc | 170

@164 james 'the 2 last links in your post are the same'

they seem to be different translations of the same excerpted chinese article, published about three months apart. we may take our pick.

@167 somebody

from your russia insider link ...

The use of alternative payment systems like gold, yuan, rupees, rubles and other monies, fiat and not, to evade the potential of sanctions and seizures of the US dollar, or its decline, are seen as favorable.

... the 'us sanctions and seizures' aren't sufficiently recognized (by the us tnc msm :) as militating against the us dollar as the 'exceptional' trading currency, in my view. yes, china, russia, south korea, japan, india ... are all just plain tired of us financial hegemony ... but the us of a ... that exceptional bastion of 'free trade' and unhindered capital movement ... has in fact got its greasy thumb on the scales with its ... 'us sanctions and seizures'.

the us of a acts as though all the us dollars in the world belong to the us of a, no matter who's received them in payment for what. they all 'belong' ... are held hostage by ... the us federal reserve 'bank'. people ... 'friends' or foes ... don't like that.

Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall.

the harder they come the harder they fall. one and all.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 19:43 utc | 171

@167 somebody

from the link at asia times on which the russia insider is based ...

Turkey, for its part, may soon be the gold payment intermediator across Asia, and is already nationalizing the sector with a demand for private confiscation occurring to support the Turkish economy, but this has scarcely been reported.

This clever evasion was known as the Iran-India-Turkey triangle. Iran was escaping the dominance of the US dollar and trading in real money, not a hegemonic fiat currency that was being printed hot-off-the-press all day. They were dealing in gold; not something that could be strangled through SWIFT and electrons traded on a screen easily.

... no there's a twist of erdogan's shiv in the back of uncle sam that i was unaware of. bodes well for - and helps explain - his success in skating on thin ice as well ... it ain't so thin. another facet of topkapi not 'covered' so well by 'fake news' central ... the tnc msm.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 19:52 utc | 172

@172 the link at asia times

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 19:53 utc | 173

@169 james, "people get criticized for being 'gold bugs' "

yeah they do. but there needs to be an interim flying buttress of support for the world financial system as the foundations of finance shift, and gold is that, historically.

and it's not an accident that general qiao begins his exposition of the us of a's financialization of empire with nixon's drop of the gold standard. the us dollar has been 'air america' since then ... well, with de facto backing after the us forced opec to substitute their black gold for the yellow variety. but the us dollar is still air america, as black gold backing is merely a convention and, as andrew brennan points out, the times they are a changin'.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 21:01 utc | 174

another exercise in clear-headedness, in my estimation, by lawrence davidson, Politicizing anti-Semitism

as ever, beware of hambaconeggs, as sold by 'Dennis Kearney' above.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2017 21:53 utc | 175

Hoarsewhisperer 162

The mahathir/soros enimity ran deep, even tho they ostensibly 'made up' some time later, i wouldnt be surprised soros had a part in the mh370 caper as suggested by yiochi shimatsu.

what we do know is soros role in various color rev world wide , including his destabilisation camaign in Malaysia. [1]

At one time dr mahathir even accused soros as complicit in the thick haze from indonesia that has been plaguing SEA for decades. [2]



Posted by: denk | May 4 2017 2:44 utc | 176

@james 163

The IMF-World Bank financial order is but a shadow of its former self, it doesn't hold much power these days. (Financial) sanctions may still bring small countries to their knees, but not Iran or Russia.
The BRICS threatened to start their own parallel financial order, so the sanctions against Iran had to be lifted - an epic defeat for the 'West', or rather the US, which basically had to beg for a deal.

And since the 'threat' of abandoning the IMF-WB-BIS system can be revitalized any time, China et al will keep winning in the coming negotiations on (further) IMF, BIS and WTO reform.

There's no more monopoly, so there's no 'calling the shots' as in former days.

@jfl 164

Military people are usually straightforward and honest, that's the good thing about them.

The 'capital pump' was most obvious when the Volcker shock led to the Latin American debt crisis, and again in the late 90s in SE Asia and Russia. What Qiao Liang doesn't mention (or did I miss that?) is that China outsmarted the US with capital controls and a state-controlled financial sector.
Thus, the Dollars pumped into China remained with the PBOC, and can easily be released once they are 'pumped back' (unlike in Latin America where they are in the hands of the oligarchs). Since the RMB is now part of the SDR and the petrodollar monopoly has fallen, the 'West' no longer holds the monopoly for 'world money'.

In Short, the US is trying to use the 'capital pump' once again to bankrupt China et al (by raising interest rates, which is economic suicide - sort of Volcker 2.0), but the result will be very different this time...

Posted by: smuks | May 4 2017 13:20 utc | 177

@jfl 174

What's rarely mentioned is that the 70s 'deal' with OPEC involved a fairly open threat of war, and the untimely death of a Saudi king.

Recent history has some very nasty secrets which will be rewritten some day - but their mere existence means that many people are 'all in' and have to defend the status quo with all means.

Posted by: smuks | May 4 2017 13:26 utc | 178

Trump just pulled millions of people off life support, because health insurance should be a hu-mane right. But what does he know? He's a billionaire who can afford the best health care out there. Mr. Swamp.

Posted by: Circe | May 5 2017 3:15 utc | 179

Trumpcare is really Trump cares...for his millionaire and billionaire friends who will receive massive tax cuts while millions of less fortunate Americans die from Trumpcare that pays for those tax cuts by cutting health coverage for those who need it most.

Trump really cares...for his swamp friends.

Posted by: Circe | May 5 2017 3:51 utc | 180

Is Circe an enforcer?

Every shell game needs shills to keep the rubes interested. Western two-faced, single-party politics is no different - but more sophisticated because there are shills on each side(!). I call these dual shilling teams apologists and enforcers.

Apologist / enforcer shills are a necessary component of the razzel-dazzel faux populist politics embodied by Obama and Trump. Enforcers not only give a President an excuse to betray their base, they also strengthen the apologist 'message' and set up the next con as outraged voters flock to their "visionary"/trusted advice.

Trump likely knows the game well as he was a prominent enforcer against Obama via the "birther" allegations.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Direct democracy could bring people from both the left and right together to end this farce.

Check out the Pirate Party.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 5 2017 5:11 utc | 181

It's almost too painful to watch as the "let's take over the Democratic Party" canard plays out:

War, Morality, and How to Get There From Here
The core premise is faulty and an exercise in misdirection. Prioritizing healthcare over war is laughable. It is a false choice. One that arises ONLY because Yves & Co. insist that the only viable means of effecting change is taking over the Democratic Party. Wouldn't it make more sense to:
>> prioritize anti-war over lax border enforcement? (Most people believe that the combination of unrestricted immigration and free healthcare is a receipe for financial disaster.)

>> Link war profiteering to wealth inequality, civil rights abuses (surveillance, militarized police, drugs, etc.) and climate change?

>> Use Bernie's betrayal as a rallying cry?

>> Explore means of circumventing the duopoly (like via direct democracy)?

But the intellectually lazy feckless left that sucks at the teat of the Democratic Party won't look at such practical measures to win over more voters. They prefer slippery slopes that offer convenient excuses and leading voters down garden paths. And that will NEVER change.

Yves inspiration is anonymous. Leading to the question of who might be the source for this nonsense. Yves Here is Lawrence Davidson writing at

Politicians need money to survive in their chosen career. As long as it does not cost them an overwhelming number of votes, they will sell their support to high bidders. And, no one bids higher than the Zionists.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 5 2017 6:33 utc | 182

I should add that it really doesn't matter to me if Circe is an "enforcer" or not. What's important is that we can identify the "enforcer" role of hyper-partisans from the out-of-power Party.

Some will complain that I am trying to shut down opposition to Trump. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is over-the-top opposition and establishment narratives (example: Russian stole the election) that are used as an excuse for betrayal that I am interested in.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

The prevailing view is that Trump was "forced" by the CIA / "borg" / Deep State to betray his base.

But a simpler explanation - and no more dark or conspiratorial - is that Trump and Obama were already of a mindset that ALLOWED for such betrayal, even expected/anticipated/(planned for?) that betrayal. In short, these Presidents are narcissistic and expect a payoff for their "service". They almost certainly made it clear to TPTB that they are not ideologues and would govern in a "practical" manner. Remember "no drama Obama"?

Obama got a $60m book deal (and much more to come). Trump can make billions. Why not play along when the payoff is so high and the cost for NOT paying can be severe?

Citizen's United reinforced the duopoly. And the Duopoly has morphed from mild competition to outright collusion against the people's interests.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 5 2017 13:37 utc | 183


For most people, healthcare is much closer to their daily real life than wars or immigration. So it makes perfect sense to start here, esp. since you already mention 'inequality'. Ever wondered why the US healthcare system is by far the most expensive in the world, yet ranks only average in quality?

If you want to reach many people, you have to talk about their real needs and not some abstract or imaginary concepts. 'Abolishing the duopoly' is a nice idea, but it's a long way to go and won't come without a civil war and/ or revolution. Which most folks seem to be afraid of.

Posted by: smuks | May 5 2017 17:19 utc | 184

smuks @184

I agree. Lets talk about their real needs. But that doesn't have to mean ignoring other issues. Connect the dots for those who have been asleep can be very powerful.

Anyone that thinks that the Democratic Party is not going to vet candidates behind the scenes is deluded. 'Taking over' the Democratic Party is a pipe-dream. Hope and Change BS. The DNC would love to see activists tilting at Party windmills instead of working at building a real Movement.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 5 2017 21:42 utc | 185

@177 smuks.. it was my understanding these financial sanctions on iran are still in place. i can't tell for sure reading this wikipedia page, but it looks like sanctions are still in place in a number of areas.
i thought brics was going to take some time to get up and running and i noted in the past year how brazil gov't was upended with some western type stooge, to prevent them from participating in it - no b, in brics at present.. in fact, i don't know where that stands now. thanks for sharing your insights on this!~..

Posted by: james | May 5 2017 22:19 utc | 186


You need both. If the movement is strong enough, they won't 'tilt at the windmills' in vain.


Both are correct. But even if some US sanctions remain, the rest of the world finds a way to trade with Iran, so it's just US firms losing out. Brazil, sad but true - but both it and South Africa are not economically essential to BRICS; their significance is rather political in that it shows the global aspirations of the bloc imv.
With or without Brazil, they could launch their parallel financial system any time they want.

Posted by: smuks | May 6 2017 16:50 utc | 187

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