Which "War Torn" Country? - U.S. Slaughter In Somalia, Yemen And Syria
When I saw the above tweet this morning I wondered which "war torn" country those Somalis were fleeing from when they were murdered. The tweet doesn't say. Were they fleeing from the "war torn" Somalia? Or were the fleeing from "war torn" Yemen?
It is a sad world when has to ponder such.
It tuned out these people were fleeing from both wars:
Coast guard Mohammad Al Alay told Reuters the refugees, carrying official UNHCR documents, were on their way from Yemen to Sudan when they were attacked by an Apache helicopter near the Bab Al Mandeb strait.
An Apache attack helicopter shot up the refugees' boat. There are Saudi, United Emirati and U.S. Apache helicopters in or around Yemen. It is unknown which of them ordered and which executed the strike. These helicopters, their ammunition and the service for them are a favored U.S. export to belligerent dictatorships like Saudi Arabia.
The UN warns that 5 million people in Yemen are only weeks away from starving. The Saudis, the U.S. and the Emirates block all land routes, air ports and the coast of Yemen and no food supplies come through. This is an ongoing huge war crime and literally a genocide. But "western" media seem totally unimpressed. Few, if any, reports on the war on Yemen get published. Never have they so openly displayed their hypocrisy.
Somalia is falling back into an all-out civil war fueled by the decades old unwillingness of the U.S. to condone an independent local unity government. The Islamic Court Union, a unity government created by the Somalis in 2006, was the last working instance of a real Somali state. It had no Jihadist agenda and held down local warlords. It was destroyed by the Bush administration:
A UN cable from June 2006, containing notes of a meeting with senior State Department and US military officials from the Horn of Africa task force, indicates that the United States was aware of the ICU’s diversity, but would “not allow” it to rule Somalia. The United States, according to the notes, intended to “rally with Ethiopia if the ‘Jihadist’ took over.” The cable concluded, “Any Ethiopian action in Somalia would have Washington’s blessing.” Some within the US intelligence community called for dialogue or reconciliation, but their voices were drowned out by hawks determined to overthrow the ICU.
During the last 10 years an on-and-off war is waged in Somalia with the U.S. military interfering whenever peace seems to gain ground. Currently a new round of war is building up. Weapons are streaming into Somalia from Yemen, where the Houthi plunder them from their Saudi invaders:
Jonah Leff, a weapons tracing expert with conflict Armament Research, said many [Somali] pirates had turned to smuggling. They take boatloads of people [from Somalia] to Yemen and return with weapons, he said.
The wars on Somalia and Yemen are the consequences of unscrupulous and incompetent(?) U.S. foreign policy. (Cutting down the size of the U.S. State Department, as the Trump administration now plans to do, is probably the best thing one can do for world peace.)
The U.S. military should be cut down too. It is equally unscrupulous and incompetent.
Last night the U.S. military hit a mosque in Al-Jīnah in Aleppo governate in Syria. It first claimed that the strike, allegedly targeting a large meeting of al-Qaeda, was in Idleb governate. But it turned out to be miles away west of Aleppo. Locals said a mosque was hit, the roof crashed in and more than 40 people were killed during the regular prayer service. More than 120 were injured. The U.S. military said it did not hit the local mosque but a building on the other side of the small plaza.
The U.S. maps and intelligence were not up-to-date. A new, bigger mosque had been build some years ago opposite of the old mosque. The old mosque was indeed not hit. The new one was destroyed while some 200 people were in attendance. Eight hellfire missiles launched from two Reaper drones were fired at it and a 500lb bomb was then dropped on top to make sure that no one escaped alive. Al-Qaeda fighters were indeed "meeting" at that place - five times a day and together with the locals they have pressed by force to attend the Quran proscribed prayers.
Had the Russian or Syrian army committed the strike the "western" outcry would have been great. For days the media would have provide gruesome photos and stories. The U.S. ambassador at the UN would have spewed fire and brimstone. But this intelligence screw-up happened on the U.S. side. There will now be some mealymouthed explanations and an official military investigation that will find no fault and will have no consequences.
Amid this sorry incident it was amusing to see the propaganda entities the U.S. had created to blame the Syrian government turning against itself. The MI6 operated SOHR was the first to come out with a high death count. The al-Qaeda aligned, U.S./UK financed "White Helmets" rescuers made a quick photo session pretending to dig out the dead. The sectarian al-Qaeda video propagandist Bilal Abdul Kareem, which the New York Times recently portrait in a positive light, provided damning video and accusing comments. The amateur NATO researchers at Bellingcat published what they had gleaned from maps, photos and videos other people created. The NATO think tank, which defended al-Qaeda's invasion of Idleb, will shed crocodile tears.
Each new lie and obfuscation the U.S. Central Command in the Middle East put out throughout the day was immediately debunked by the horde of U.S. financed al-Qaeda propaganda supporters. This blowback from the "information operation" against Syria will likely have consequences for future U.S. operations.
In another operation last night the Israeli air force attacked Syrian forces near Palmyra which were operating against ISIS. The Israeli fighters were chased away when the Syrians fired air defense missiles. This was an Israeli attempt to stretch the "rules of operation" it had negotiated with the Russian military in Syria. The Russians, which control the Syrian air space, had allowed Israel to hit Hizbullah weapon transports on their way to Lebanon. Attacks on any force operating against Jihadis in Syria are taboo. The Russian government summoned the Israeli ambassador. Netanyahoo broke the rules. He will now have to bear the consequences.
Posted by b on March 17, 2017 at 19:42 UTC | Permalink
next page »#1
Was used before that on Native Americans, just saying.
Then a lest the Syrians took down one jet and damaged another by using a S-200 rocket. I don't have the link it's easy to find.
Posted by: jo6pac | Mar 17 2017 20:17 utc | 2
SOHR, White Hemets, Bellingcat all belong to the same organisation/faction as Clinton/Obama.
Sputnik had an interesting piece earlier on Obama just happening to be at a restaurant in Honolulu that was located between the judges place of residence and the courthouse, when that judge blocked Trump's revised travel ban. Apparently Judge Derrick Watson and Obama have known each other since school days.
So who are the power factions that are fighting each other? Who is behind Trump? Trump seems to want to grab what he can of Syria and then aim the US war machine at China, Iran, Hezbolla.
What is it the Obama/Clinton faction and their associated propaganda units want?
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 17 2017 20:22 utc | 3
While draining the Foggy Bottom and the Pentagon swamps sounds like the best public service Donald Trump might do for the US, the sad fact is that all those unemployed State and Defense Department employees will find new mischief to do as consultants in thinktanks and agencies patronised by their old employers, as lecturers in universities, as lobbyists on Capitol Hill or as "advisors" to foreign governments and private mercenary organisations with an interest in keeping the Middle East in permanent chaos. They might even be part of a future plot to overthrow Trump.
Trump would do well to keep these people close if only to keep an eye on them 24/7.
Posted by: Jen | Mar 17 2017 20:25 utc | 4
The Russians control the airspace over Syria. I find it inconceivable that the Israelis can strike any target in Syria without the Russians AT BEST deliberately turning a blind eye, AT WORST tacit permission and approval. The strike in Palmyra is even more extraordinary as it is in an area of recent combat operations, and was targeting forces who are opponents of ISIS.
Something is not right here...
Thoughts of an Iraqi abroad...
off topic:
RE: "These Neocons Want Another Sunni Insurgency" from March 15th http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/03/third-times-the-charm-the-neocons-want-another-sunni-insurgency.html#comments
@smuks 84
In response to my belief that an Arab coalition against Iran is in the making, you stated that Arab Coalitions by nature have been unstable- I think in this particular case (coalition Against Iran and its allied forces) they will form an ideological coalition against Iranian (Persian / Shia) forces. Sectarianism whether be it on an ethnic (Arab), religious (anti-Shia) or ideological (extreme secular) is a powerful tool and can be used to give forces the cohesion and motivation they need to fight. look at ISIS and al-Nusra. I am vehemently opposed to them and wish them to be destroyed, but it cant be denied that they are motivated to fight for their cause (all be it a false evil cause). I think the majority of people in the Middle East are not sectarian and want to live normal peaceful lives, but enough are out there that are willing to join and fight for this "sectarian" cause- these will be utilised by these Arab states for their "coalition Army".
RE: @jfl 77 - No, I'm not in Virginia!
Posted by: hayder | Mar 17 2017 21:12 utc | 6
"This [Jemen] is an ongoing huge war crime and literally a genocide."
Yes, I wrote that a few times in the commentary section of the ARD-Tagesschau. No reaction by other commentators. (I recently was bared there. They do not like lefties. This is done by cookies, not a big problem by the way.)
Killed refugees, a bombarded mosque and an Israeli attack on the syrian army fighting against the IS. Not to forget a menacing Rex. It's just sickening.
Posted by: Pnyx | Mar 17 2017 21:25 utc | 7
Several accounts of the downing of an Israeli military aircraft gleaned from varied sources all mention that the aircraft was downed over occupied territory which my bovine excrement decoder ring tells me is the Golan? Also mentioned in several of these reports that a missile was intercepted over the West Bank. What really occurred I have no idea?
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 17 2017 21:52 utc | 9
SOME WEEK AGO HE VISITED MOSCOW-HE PROBABLY DID NOT GET WHAT HE WANTED- NOW THEY DOING THEIRS PASTIME---BOMBING.....
Something was shot down last night in the Irbid, Jordan area. See here:
https://twitter.com/ivansidorenko1/status/842576840019644416
Looks like the body of some AA missile of some sort. Irbid is about 30km from the Syrian border. Could it be the remains of a deflected S200?
Posted by: Lozion | Mar 17 2017 22:23 utc | 11
The Russians control the airspace over Syria.No they don't and I doubt they would claim to do so. They don't have enough fighter aircraft present to do that and one airbase on the western edge of Syria means it's probably not possible to get aircraft over Palmyra in time to deal with an attack. The static air defences are there to protect the Russian base in Latakia and are most likely capable of that. Palmyra is over 250km from the Latakia and is within range for one variant,perhaps two of the five S-400 variants available (which have ranges of 40kms, 120kms, 200kms, 250kms and 400kms) s if the launchers didn't have the appropriate variant, there was no point in launching anything. The aircraft over Palmyra, if that is where they actually were, were no threat to the Russian airbase in Latakia and the risk of escalation probably doesn't justify launching missiles if the identity of the aircraft is unclear to the Russians.
Posted by: Ghostship | Mar 17 2017 22:32 utc | 12
Oh the Trumpsters troops hit a mosque by mistake that's all, old map, so what, right? They just have 6,650 troops in Syria to make a few mistakes while they get ISIS, that's all, meanwhile Yemenis are being slaughtered every day with increased U.S./Saudi escalation!
(Cutting down the size of the U.S. State Department, as the Trump administration now plans to do, is probably the best thing one can do for world peace.)
Really? We should be glad the broken grandfather clock is right once!
Netanyahu's gonna get a slap because the Ambassador was called in. No doubt Netanyahu got the message and is very, very scared to bomb in Syria again. NOT! The Israelis got their Ambassadors summoned every time they committed an extra-judicial act of war and assassination or war crime. It's laughable to imagine that getting their Ambassador summoned will stop them.
Posted by: Circe | Mar 17 2017 22:44 utc | 13
Never mind yapping about Obama or Hillary. They aren't in control. Trump's in control for crying out loud.
There's lots on here still maintaining that Trump's a good guy but he has lots people trying to make it hard to do the right thing. That he's all for peace and nonintervention if only the deep state would cooperate. And the Easter Bunny's gonna come next month. Jesus Christ, he's ratcheted up military assets in every theatre. That look like nonintervention?
He's ramping up things in the ME. More troops, bigger bombers, somebody's getting their ass handed to them before long. It'll be the same festering mess only more apocalyptic. Has there been the slightest hint of any relaxing of the intensity anywhere in that hellhole of a place? Nope, pedal to the metal.
The US and South Korea are about to start their annual months-long practice invasion of North Korea. They like that because it drives Kim up the wall. The little dork is shooting rockets all over the place, testing nukes every other week. It's time to show lil Kim where the bear shit in the buckwheat.
Send a few more battalions or armor to the Balkans and a few missile destroyers to the Baltic and Black Seas. Get right up in the face of Russia.
State Department, who fucking needs it? Need more generals, not diplomats. I'm being facetious in case you didn't know. Mattis has said if there's cuts to State he'll need more ammo. I guess that's the plan.
Trump might need a shooting war to reestablish his creds as a leader. He's made such a hash of his agenda at home that even his most ardent believers are beginning to wonder what's going on. He's gutting all the domestic and environmental regs. He's clearing the deck for him and his pals to start looting and pillaging. He's pulling the rug on the old and the poor. He's fostering hatred towards Latinos and anyone from the Middle East. Even Jews. That wasn't the intention but once he gave the okay to hate he had no control over where the hoi polloi would stop. Can't get his Muslim ban going, his Trumpcare is DOA just like his budget. This wire tapping shit is making him a laughing stock.
How do you get the people back on board? Start a big-ass war.
Obama's kicking back in the South Seas. Hillary's just being Hillary. But they got fuck-all to say about anything. It's all Trump. He's the president.
Posted by: peter | Mar 17 2017 22:45 utc | 14
Yesterday, prior to reports of the Israeli air strikes near Palmyra, The Long War Journal published "Hezbollah is Preparing Syria as a Second Battlefield Against Israel." Maybe Israel's changing the rules of the road is part of a "Plan C."
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 17 2017 22:45 utc | 15
These events are surreal and born of unconstrained hubris, even 'insanity' ? Depressing.
In common with the post by: hopehely | Mar 17, 2017 5:05:29 PM | 5
For those that may not comprende' @5, its about a NK soldier taking photo's of SecState Rex Tillerson 'visiting' (Why?!) the Joint Security Area (JSA) on the Korean DMZ. A singularly unique location that worships hubris & insanity, whilst being a major tourist attraction?!
Another excellent Sth Korean Cinema classic providing insight into the bizarre bubble of the JSA (pre 2004 changes), see Joint Security Area (Film)(2000). Fictional thriller.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 17 2017 22:55 utc | 16
Is Trump in control, or is the national security state?
Posted by: lysias | Mar 17 2017 22:58 utc | 17
@ Posted by: Ghostship | Mar 17, 2017 6:32:11 PM | 12
Indeed.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 17 2017 23:01 utc | 18
@ Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 17, 2017 6:45:55 PM | 15
Mike, in case you may not be aware, that 'article', and one is being generous, is a construct of mis & dis-information & deliberate falsehoods, literally worthless crap, IMHO, and was produced by the 'The Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD)'. Do follow the link if interested, the founders and members are most, illuminating. Might as well have been produced directly by DebkaFile or PNAC.
FDD was co-founded by Dr. Jeane Kirkpatrick soon after the al-Qaeda attacks of September 11, 2001 and served on its Board of Directors until her passing in 2006.
An ardent anticommunist, she was a longtime Democrat who became a Republican in 1985. After serving as Ronald Reagan's foreign policy adviser in his 1980 campaign, she became the first woman to serve as US Ambassador to the United Nations.She was known for the "Kirkpatrick Doctrine", which advocated supporting authoritarian regimes around the world if they went along with Washington's aims.
From the FDD profile:
Dr. Kirkpatrick’s contributions were celebrated abroad, too. For her work on NATO enlargement, the Czech Republic awarded her the Tomas Garrigue Masaryk Order in 1998. Hungary presented her with the Presidential Gold Medal in 1999, Israel recognized her with the 50th Anniversary Friend of Zion Award in 1998 ...
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 17 2017 23:38 utc | 19
There is ample evidence that the US, like South Africa and Israel are settler states and by definition fascist.
So, here is THE QUESTION:
What is news here?
And THE ANSWER:
Not a damned thing.
Posted by: rg the lg | Mar 18 2017 0:11 utc | 20
Bilal Abdul Kareem is CIA. Study his speech patterns, pure military cadence. He trained in Qatar over a decade ago. They are literally all (Bellingcat, SOHR, White Helmets, HRW, Amnesty International..the list goes on and on) speaking and acting with one voice.
Make no mistake, this Bilal character and his faux-Islam and/or "indie journalist" schtick is 100% stagecraft. The White Helmets even use traditional theatrical prosthetics and "dust", in their insta-productions. I'm not sure what's sadder; that these tragediennes exist at all, or that their fancy-dress mercenarism is believed by the dumbass western public.
Posted by: sejomoje | Mar 18 2017 0:17 utc | 21
b,
Never have they [the tnc msm] so openly displayed their hypocrisy.not just hypocrisy ... complicity with the war crimes of the great satan, the 'premiere' terrorist state, the united states of america.
The wars on Somalia and Yemen are the consequences of unscrupulous and incompetent(?) U.S. foreign policy.unscrupulous but not incompetent. they are getting the results they set out to get. just as does a sadistic child pulling the wings off flies.
The U.S. military should be cut down too. It is equally unscrupulous and incompetent.amen, amen. the world's premiere terrorist operation : the usaf is the poster-'boy' ... it's job is to murder civilians and to destroy infrastructure. has been for its entire criminal career.
But this intelligence screw-up happened on the U.S. side.'intelligence' ... their own description of their stupid, criminal undertakings is the foundation upon which their 'intelligence' is built, just as their civilian wing, the banksters, build their common financial empire on the interest on the money they loan into existence. the rug needs to be pulled from beneath them both ... they are just two faces of the same counterfeit coin.
The Russians, which control the Syrian air space, had allowed Israel to hit Hizbullah weapon transports on their way to Lebanon. Attacks on any force operating against Jihadis in Syria are taboo.no percentage in allowing 'good' war crimes to proceed while disallowing 'bad' war crimes. this is akin to the us supporting 'good' head-choppers. the russians need to provide the syrians with the means to defend themselves ... s-[34]00 air defense systems and the training to use them ... or do they plan on occupying syria themselves in condominium with the us/israelis-gcc?
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 0:17 utc | 22
@16 or
couldn't make out hopehely's post. saw no picture of tee-rex at the korean dnz ... but it's a tradition for the us secretary of state to go the dnz, isn't it?
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 0:34 utc | 23
Aaah fuck! where are Bono & Geldof? They need to be aboard a yuuge freighter loaded down with food and medicines going to Yemen. I'm only kidding they wouldn't dare unless george clooney came along too and he's too busy making yet another crappy rom-com.
From a coldly objective standpoint I sorta wonder exactly what will happen once the inevitable occurs and Yemenis begin dying in large number.
Of course we will be told that it is the houti who caused it by not dropping their pants & begging for a good buggering by the saudis, but humans tend to ignore that claptrap once they are presented with the stark reality of enforced mass anorexia. It may be something hard wired into us where the sight of brutal starvation overrides social conditioning.
Thing is I don't want it to get that far, even if it means some sorta victory for the remaining population of Yemen,the misery may well turn the world completely against amerika & ksa but the price is still too high.
Individually there is fuck all we can do, collectively there isn't much either, nothing will demonstrate the complete disempowerment of all humans outside the elite more than millions of people starving and none of us being able to lift a finger to help while we toss our half eaten meals into the garbage, but so what? It's still not worth it.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 18 2017 0:51 utc | 24
Apparently Hezbollah has underground missile factories supplied by Iran located in Lebanon.
The Iranian general was quoted by al-Jarida as saying that the decision to produce rockets indigenously in Lebanon came after Israel bombed weapons factories in Sudan and supply routes for Iranian rockets via Syria.
The new factories would mark a dramatic upgrade in Hezbollah’s ability to acquire more, and more precise, rockets than ever before.
Rockets produced by the new facilities have already been used by Hezbollah in battles in Syria, the report said.
The development highlights the depth of Iran’s involvement in Syria and Lebanon. During Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s visit to Moscow last week, he reportedly presented Russian leaders with information acquired by Israel, according to which Iran is seeking to establish a naval base on Syria’s Mediterranean coast, likely in the Latakia area.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-sets-up-underground-rocket-factories-in-lebanon-report/
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18 2017 0:58 utc | 25
@ Posted by: jfl | Mar 17, 2017 8:34:23 PM | 23
The links contents are now incomplete for some reason (broken secondary source links ?) ... here is an alternate direct link to the same image (Jpg) ...
Yeah, Dulles, the second brother. Hubris & Insanity.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 0:58 utc | 26
hahaha jfl "condominium". More like rickety frat house.
Posted by: sejomoje | Mar 18 2017 1:04 utc | 27
Perhaps my memories, or what has stuck in my mind of the press coverage of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia may not be right, but it seems very similar to the MSM coverage of Yemen. MSM ringing their hands and crocodile tears ect. From what I remember, Veitnam were the bad guys in the MSM when they went in and cleaned up the Khmer Rouge.
Nothing has changed.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 1:14 utc | 28
@28 That's correct. It was described as a Vietnamese invasion. Of course some Vietnamese generals did acquire a few bits of prime Cambodian real estate for their trouble.
Posted by: dh | Mar 18 2017 1:35 utc | 29
@ Posted by: ALberto | Mar 17, 2017 8:58:02 PM | 25
Alberto, Times of Israel, Avi Issacharoff ?
A long term Mossad/IDF media shill/operative quotes Kuwaiti newspaper 'al-Jarida' saying an Iranian General said, BS, BS & more Psyop mis/dis-information BS, yet can't name/attribute the actual Iranian General ?! Avi, might as well claim/attribute the contents of his 'article' to the Easter Bunny. It's more absolute Crap! re the Evil™ Iran sub-narrative, IMHO. (E5)
@ Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 17, 2017 9:14:37 PM | 28
Nothing has changed.
My recollection, too :(
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 1:38 utc | 30
an article i found interesting, in translation at southfront The United Arab Emirates And Egypt Aspire to Dominate the Middle East
@28 Peter AU
saudis:yemen::vietnamese:pol pot's cambodia ? confusing analogy.
too many pieces have to be 'explained' to make that fit. the vietnamese were cleaning up the mess nextdoor created and left by the usa. the saudis are trying to subjugate the yemenis. some interesting observations and assertions in the link above on yemen, ksa, uae.
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 2:20 utc | 31
"An Apache attack helicopter shot up the refugees' boat. There are Saudi, United Emirates and U.S. Apache helicopters in or around Yemen."
Quite right, and thanks for pointing that out.
The military of Yemen has never had any Apache helicopters but has relied entirely on Soviet/Russian models for "gunships" instead. And if, via this fact, we can rule out the Yemeni army _proper_ as culprit, we can rule out the rebels too, with whatever equipment they got from defecting troops. Certainly no "Apaches" there, either.
Apparently, this simple consideration (it can be done with the help of Wikipedia, too) is too much to ask for with Western journalists. They like to keep the question of who might be responsible for this act of violence as open as possible because, you know, it's just so unclear, there's been no confirmation etc. Had there been the slightest possibility of Russia being in any way involved, the blame would have been put on Putin even before the poor victims would have been done dying.
"There are Saudi, United Emirates and U.S. Apache helicopters in or around Yemen. It is unknown which of them ordered and which executed the strike."
Maybe, but what does it matter, anyway? They're "coalition", right? In for a penny, in for a pound. All those 3 countries, each of them a true champion of human rights no doubt, are currently members of the UN Human Rights Council. Let them sort it out among themselves there.
BTW, what makes the killing of those refugees even more stupid and heinous is the fact that their boat was 30 miles off the Yemeni coast and clearly headed southward. This should have been enough to tell it apart from any would-be smugglers' vessel carrying weapons into rebel territory. Luckily for the survivors, the attackers stopped halfway into their attack - some decency and common sense left maybe?
Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Mar 18 2017 2:25 utc | 32
@32 sb 'some decency and common sense left maybe?'
you're kidding? they ran out of bullets / rockets / fuel ? the us/gcc are utterly indecent, heedless, and stupid.
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 2:34 utc | 33
Posted by: jfl | Mar 17, 2017 8:34:23 PM | 23
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 17, 2017 8:58:35 PM | 26
It works fine on my machine. A mouse click goes straight to the Colonel Cassad article. All photos are there (6 in total, actually 5.5 #3 is a close T-Rex crop of #1).
Alternatively, try to google Colonel Cassad, or go to his main page and click the article link in the bar on the right hand side. The title of the article is "Я за тобой слежу".
If you have a problem seeing the content, your machine or your ISP might be guarding you a tad more than it should. ;-)
Posted by: hopehely | Mar 18 2017 2:52 utc | 34
@25 Get back to me in one week on MoA and tell me what you think of the ME situation.
Presidential Unit Citation
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18 2017 3:11 utc | 35
@hayder, peter, DiD
I second your comments and hope to read more from each.
hayder,
Here is Mattis in a photo-op with the Prince of Darkness and Death.:
The press was totally blacked out of the meetings between Trump and the Saudi princely highness Defence Minister and his meeting with Mattis. This is a very opaque and deceptive White House and I don't mind repeating it. Mattis was charged to prepare a plan in 30 days for Syria and Yemen safe zones, two months ago and we have no idea yet what these two are conspiring. Someone should bug the White House and Pentagon so people won't be in the dark about how their hard-earned money is going to be spent in yet more Middle East entanglements. People have a Constitutional right to know what their government is up to.
Like Russia, Iran has become the perennial enemy, despite not having invaded or occupied any country and never mind its scientific and technological advancement under the harshest sanctions imposed on it, not to mention its vast resources and exponential economic potential. Russia and Iran share a common resilience; both being the top targets of the Empire and yet Russia voted on sanctions against Iran at the UNSC. Even Brazil and Turkey non-permanent members voted against and Lebanon abstained. I can not fathom why Russia did not at least abstain.
Now, Russia is doing nothing to condemn Israeli bombing in Syria and escalating U.S. military presence, both Israel and U.S.; uninvited invaders. Putin has some 'splainin to do; this is looking like a double-cross.
Debsisdead:
Affluent America gorges and low income Americans pay, for the bombs being dropped on the skeletal, half-starved Yemeni, with slashed programs that help them survive from one day to the next. George Clooney supports causes, interventions and proxy wars under the guise of human rights that have the Zionist seal of approval. Hollywood celebrity hypocrisy and spinelessness is staggering.
Posted by: Circe | Mar 18 2017 3:14 utc | 36
@14 Peter
Well said. I am stunned how some are still not quite over talking about Clinton's would be presidency instead of looking at the current power system. Or others choosing to frame this as simple battle of "Trump VS The Deep State." The naivety has dulled down quite a bit lately though. A lot of people fully on board the Trump train earlier seem to be walking back their earlier thoughts it seems.
Can't blame people for wanting to latch onto a personality I suppose tho.
http://journal-neo.org/2017/03/11/can-trump-be-described-as-obamas-political-twin/
Posted by: FecklessLeft | Mar 18 2017 3:31 utc | 37
'Apart from a few bitter-enders still trying and failing to get the words “I was wrong” out of their mouths like Fonzie in Happy Days, antiwar Trump supporters seem to understand that they got played.
Perhaps Trump will change course yet again and start pulling American troops out of the Middle East when (not if) things blow up in his face, as Ronald Reagan did after the 1983 Beirut Marine barracks bombing. But I wouldn’t bet on it. His temperament and, so far, his actions scream “war president.”'
http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/17/sorry-non-interventionists-donald-trump-is-a-war-president/
Posted by: FecklessLeft | Mar 18 2017 3:35 utc | 38
Feckless left 38
Looks like there is two or more factions in the US/US world competing against each other for world hegemony. Old money factions?
On one side is the Obama/Clinton faction that includes NGO's, media, new money Soros ect. Who is backing them.
Trump is appearing to be front man for another faction. Who are they? Did they jump aboard the deplorable wagon when they saw Trump would grab the drivers seat of the war machine?
What are the two factions? Old UK/English money and old US money?
One faction wants to concentrate on taking down Russia, the other wants to take down China. Russia is the strategic weapon equal of the US, China is an up and coming financial threat to US hegemony.
Trump wants to grab what he can and close down the Syria/Ukraine operations, or leave them as festering sores, to concentrate on China and Iran.
Obama/Clinton is the face of the other faction that want to concentrate on Russia as the primary target with China a secondary target.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 4:03 utc | 39
@ jfl
What do you reckon the MSM headlines would be if Russia were to move an S-400 into Yemen at the request of the elected government in Sana and blew the camel fuckers out of the air?
I think Russia would be seen as the bad guys by MSM.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 4:18 utc | 40
@39
You're soon going to find out that regardless if Trumspter discriminates against minorities and the poor, when it comes to military targets he won't be as discriminating with the targets of the past administrations as you pretend he is. Obama for all his failings didn't put 4,000 boots on the ground in Syria and 2,500 airborne when ISIS defenses are already reportedly collapsing. Trump and Obama both equipped the Saudis with more weapons to bomb Yemen and Trump is stepping up bombing raids in Yemen. Trump is also meeting with the Saudis on safe zones in Syria and Yemen, something the previous administration wouldn't sign off on.
Trump also has something up his sleeve regarding Iran; part of the reason for his meeting with the Saudi Prince of Darkness. Obama made a deal with Iran that Trump wants to shred; so Trump is looking for a fight with Iran. He's threatening North Korea militarily, and pissing off China every second day with this and that provocation. Oh, and despite his statements on Russia, the escalation of NATO troops on Russia's border and U.S. naval presence in the Black Sea continues.
I'd say Trump is trying to provoke wars on two continents; not seen since WWII. He's after the same targets and escalating.
Posted by: Circe | Mar 18 2017 4:46 utc | 41
And ALL these conflicts in the name of increased profits for a select few, at the expense of many common people.
Posted by: ben | Mar 18 2017 4:58 utc | 42
Somalia,
why bbc and others dont think it's necessary to identify who's bombing somalis....cuz its a no brainer !
i once challenge someone here,
'if ten yrs on, make it 20 even [1], you read some headline like *hundreds of civilians killed in an air raid in xxx*, i'll bet you one hundred bucks the perpetrator would be washington, not beijing*
&......
why's murkka in somalia ?
the same reason its in yemen etc , south china sea,
control of 'choke points', china
http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/somalia-hidden-catastrophe-hidden-agenda/
Posted by: denk | Mar 18 2017 5:26 utc | 43
Now White Helmets, Oscar winners, are scolding US military, while swearing the the mosque bombing was not Assad or Russian deed, showing themselves not only opportunistic liars but a partisan opportunistic liars. It looks like that Dems have their own party militia called Al-Nusra ion a Lebanon style.
Can we make sense of this political theater of absurd?
After escalation of anti-Russian hysteria culminating in firing Flynn it is clear that the so-called intelligence community leadership of the US Deep State went rogue partisan and has become a clear and present danger to the American Republic and the President's Office in particular…
But relax, all of this is just another re-write/re-run of the old political farce, a dramatic twist in this more than usually entertaining tale of political fakery this time starring by a really talented professional entertainer, would be Oscar Winning Donald Trump.
If he was for real one would expect from Trump to demand massive audit and consequently de-funding of those agencies three letter agencies, especially CIA and mass arrest of their directors and executives as a necessary measure to maintain US constitutional order, including invoking a "rebellion" prerogatives and locally martial law as well as use to full extend Obama signed NDAA declaring all those de-facto slow-coup leaders enemy combatants and render them to the military discretion such as putting them in Guantanamo, but that’s not what’s in this play’s script.
As the script of this reality TV show requires during last few episodes producers wanted us to suspend our disbelief and make us think that the Deep state concocted CIA led coup relying on instigating civil unrest and violence disrupting Trump presidency and other provocations and false flag ops CIA specializes in, while using MSM media monopoly loaded with CIA assets pretending to be reporters and owners, to fuel a new reincarnation Red-Biting from McCarthy communist witch-hunt hysteria this time directed to highest level elected US official i.e. POTUS.
But there is more;
This obvious CIA false flag psyops underlying fake concocted out of thin air reports, MSM anti-Russian hysteria [new reincarnation of old CIA run Mockingbird Operation] and WaPo slanderous piece based on ProPornOt fake website seems to be working somewhat, political audience seems flabbergasted.
The producers of this farce are happy, American sheeple seem to be biting the crap and gorge themselves on it again like in old Joe McCarthy days where millions voluntarily enlisted to search for card-carrying commie bogymen under their beds.
To add to drama, old Joe McCarthy propaganda methods from beyond his grave, are used by a fake CIA Putin slanderous leaks, utterly repudiated by former CIA and NSA executives as baseless, rejected by current FBI and NSA experts as containing groundless conclusions with completely absent evidenciary support after they read secret CIA reports in their entirety. That should have close the case.
But it did not, the show must go on, all to keep audience emotionally charged and wanting more. Hard facts completely repudiating the CIA anonymous claims did not matter for MSM propaganda machine exactly what screen writers wanted it. Leaving us hanging mulling fake? Or real?
So what is this story all about? Surely not about finding out the truth but rather to put all of us i.e. the audience of the lowbrow farcical play on an emotional roller coaster, to get us confused, conflicted, guessing and most of all divided of what next episode may bring, while being effectively anesthetized to true reality around us.
The same old reality of US oligarchic ruling elite firmly in charge, smoothly transitioned from Obama label to Trump label continuing on a preprogrammed course, set decades ago un-challenged and unimpeded while masses are being entertained in a little more dramatic fashion than usual.
However this whole charade was prophetically pointed out already a week before elections in November 2016:
https://syrianwarupdate.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/us-elections-a-farcical-spectacle-of-blood-and-imperial-hubris/
"But most important reason why.. [success of ] Trump presidency is a near impossible is because he would have faced nothing but hostile establishment, who would have squashed all of his more reasonable utterances like peace with Russia or stopping, slowing globalization etc., by actions of congress filled with hateful and angry Reps and Dems in unity, ready to impeach him if he does not conform to imperial policies.Also Trump would face un-governable, mutinous the US Imperial military elite that repudiated Trump entirely except for lower ranks grunts, or surveillance and security apparatus leadership ready to kill him with pleasure.
The “President Trump” would not have had a real power to change wall paper in oval office, he would have been relegated to a TV personality POTUS in a surrealistic reality show, what US politics really is.
In fact this would have been the very role and only role he is experienced in and talented enough to fulfill. ..
Simply Trump will not be able to exercise any kind of influence over the deep state which will continue their deeds unaffected."
Posted by: Kalen | Mar 18 2017 5:47 utc | 44
@ Circe 41
Apologies for the short reply. A bit more going on here than your simple mind can comprehend or perhaps not listed on your talking point sheet.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 6:01 utc | 46
There's a universally accepted Get Out Of Jail Free card for mass-murderers. It's called WAR and it works against the interests of civilians every time it's used as an excuse to kill people. If killers dress up in identical costumes and arm themselves they become "soldiers" allowing any crimes they commit to be brushed aside by their paymasers/recruiters as the happenstance and confusion of WAR.
However, IF it were to be mandated internationally that "soldiers" must not be deployed to foreign country without first declaring WAR, then most of the killing of civilians being perpetrated by "soldiers" in undeclared "wars" in the world today would become illegal - no matter what costumes the soldiers/murderers were wearing.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 18 2017 6:39 utc | 47
A quick search of the term old money brought up one European name, a number of US names of which Rockefeller apparently is the most powerful.
Rothschild - Goldman Sachs. Europe based. Big banking interests in China, small recent entry into Russia
Rockefeller - Chase Manhattan. "Philanthropist" interest in China, oil interests in Russia?
Rothschild - business in Europe/UK. Europe/UK keen on doing business with China, but currently anti Russia. Europe also fully in the Obama/Clinton/Soros camp.
Trump in the drivers seat of the war machine has his sights set on China. Who is backing him? Ex Goldman Sachs employees in Trumps admin? Trumps admin - Big oil - T Rex ex ceo of Exxon of standard oil = Rockefeller.
Big oil, Goldman Sachs, US military...
mmm... nukin the US would solve a lot of problems.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 6:56 utc | 48
Adding to the propaganda organs turning against Trump US is the expensive compromised raid in Yemen under the Trump admin. Ninety something million dollar Osprey destroyed and the AQ honcho that apparently was the target got away. Trump ends up with 100 million or more in costs, dead and wounded US mercenaries, bad press for killing AQ civilians and nbo trophy AQ honcho.
Not that I feel sorry for any of them - including Trump, but there is a faction war going on for power in the US.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 7:28 utc | 49
@ghostship
Ghostship | Mar 17, 2017 6:32:11 PM
"No, [the Russians don't control the airspace]"
They do where it is relevant with regards to Israel. The east is a different story. They Syrian air defenses and the Russian one in Syria are integrated. Not perfect maybe but they are. Along with the Russian S-400 there are Syrian S-300 systems, older but effective S-2 systems and Pantsyr local air defenses.
What people underestimate is the difficulty to detect Israeli strikes. They can fly over Israel or Lebanon and launch a cruise missile against Damascus before you can say "hello". This would give the air defense a warning time of less than 2 minutes before impact or so. It's difficult to detect at all and responding in a calculated manner is even more difficult.
But the Russian military are certainly in agreed upon common control of the Syrian network and will have their (political) guidelines of how to act in each and every case. If need be the Russians will hardly refrain from shooting down an Israeli airplane that launches on Syria even if that airplane is in Israeli airspace.
Pro-Russian forces in Israel's "Jewish" (most Russians in Israel aren't) society are very strong. If Putin calls upon them Netanyahoo is political toast.
@CIRCE
WARNING
If you screw up another page by using the URL of a link as link-text you will get banned.
Learn manners or stay away.
About Israel's fighters - Russia will never shoot at them unless they are directly attacked themselves (Israel will never do that as well).
Russia maintains good relationships with Israel, and always looks the other way when IAF bombs "Hezbollah", code word for bombing of SAA to provide air cover for Al Qaeda groups (including ISIS) and degrade SAA capabilities. Whether its near Golan, Damascus, or even Palmyra now. Nutjobyahoo is increasingly desperate when his favorite headchoppers are loosing in Syria.
Posted by: Harry | Mar 18 2017 8:25 utc | 52
Starting to question *Palmyra as target* in the Syrian account of events. If southern Homs was the target area, how did a Hezbollah high ranking official get killed near the Lebanese border?
Posted by: Wwinsti | Mar 18 2017 9:17 utc | 53
Even worse news, the brittih people are pretty unware of the war in Yemen!
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/03/18/514769/UK-YouGov-poll-Yemen-war-Saudi-Arabia
Posted by: Anonymou_s | Mar 18 2017 9:23 utc | 54
Is there any hope of someone risking the displeasure of Big Massa to run the blockade to get food and medicine in? Where does the American body count in the Middle East stand now? Since 2002, the people of this region have taken the full brunt of one of the most monstrous campaigns of terror and barbarism of the modern age, courtesy of The Indispensable Nation. America truly is the Evil Empire.
Posted by: Almand | Mar 18 2017 9:36 utc | 55
@40 peter au
they already have s-400s, and syria itself has s-300s, in syria according to b @50 and yet they cannot / will not stop israel air-attacks in that country. hard to imagine the russians putting the 'vaunted' - but untried? - s-400 into yemen. they'd have to invade by sea or send in paratroopers by air to occupy an airport, wouldn't they? they've got what they need on the ground in syria and don't use it ... no sense in invading to put same in yemen so they can not use it there as well.
i can understand the russians not wanting to attack israel from a third country, but there is no reason why they should not tutor the syrians themselves on the use of their russian armaments to defend their country. every time the israelis bomb syria it gets easier to repeat. hezbollah is in syria at syria's 'invitation' - request - and an attack on hezbollah is therefore equivalent to an attack on the saa. according to the syrians this last report was by a squadron of israeli jets.
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 9:50 utc | 56
@55, almand, 'Where does the American body count in the Middle East stand now?'
1.3 to 2 million was the estimate of the physicans for social responsibility body count in 2014-15. it's certainly higher than that now. many say it was higher than that then.
all victims of the united states of america's series of elective wars in the middle east.
War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.
The term supreme international crime was introduced by Justice Robert H. Jackson, chief prosecutor for the United States at the Nuremberg Trials, who said ...
We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well.
... it's clear the united states of america in the 21st century is of the same qualitative sort as the german third reich in the 20th. no one says so outloud, but the historians of the future will write so, and the usa will be held up as the negative example of the 21st century. there may yet arise a more evil government, i suppose, but i hope not. the usa is plenty evil for me, and certainly for the 2 million acknowledges souls whose bodies were separated from them by the shocking, awful power of death, devastation, destruction, and deceit of my united states of america.
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 10:25 utc | 57
Israel assumes there is a Hezbollah front now from Lebanon to the Golan and that they will have to fight a "real army" in the next war.
Israel cannot afford this war. Their rationale is that they are the only safe place for Jewish people in the context of Jewish history and that the solution to the "Jewish problem" is to behave as nationalist and chauvinist as everybody else in 19th and 20th century Europe.
Their tragedy is that the foundation of Israel made Jewish life unsafe in the Middle East. If life should become unsafe within Israel it is the end of the rationale of Zionism.
There might be a chance for preemptive Middle East peace.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2017 10:29 utc | 58
@12 Ghostship
I'm not suggesting the Russian air force has a plane that covers the whole Syrian airspace all the time, however, they have deployed the S300 and S400 system in Syria.
The S400 has coverage over the Palmyra area- please see ref: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34976537
So, the Russian have monitoring coverage of the majority of Syrian airspace all the time- save feo the furthest East and the northeast "tail" of Syria.
For aircraft to come into Syrian airspace, carry out a bombing run in an area close to an ACTIVE combat zone with ISIS tells me 1 of 2 things: either 1) the S400 system is useless at detecting incoming aircraft (which seems false) or 2) the Russians picked up the attacking aircraft, and gave the green light for bombing run to take place. I know which version I believe.
The Russians calling the Israeli ambassador is just smoke and mirrors- political games, as I cant believe there was no green light for this to take place. Sources that I have looked at state that it was the Syrian army that was bombed and the area in Palmyra is NOT a route take for weapons smuggling.
@36 Circe
Thanks for your comment. I think Russia would be absolutely mad to break up anti-terror alliance with Iran. Surely Putin and Co have more sense than this -regardless of the incentives and guarantees Russia receives to break the anti-terror alliance, the "other camp" are liable to change / break the agreement at a later date leaving Russia "hanging in the wind". Time will tell, but the signs look ominous, and I think this could be a colossal mistake by Russia.
Thoughts of an Iraqi abroad...
Posted by: Hayder | Mar 18 2017 10:29 utc | 59
ALL Americans are war criminals and have been for some time, including me. Our ancestors butchered the Red Man, enslaved the Black Man, helped kill hundreds of thousands of South America brown men, while murdering millions of SE Asia's yellow man.
Now we're back to butchering the brown man in the ME. We are such a messed-up nation.
Posted by: Greg Bacon | Mar 18 2017 10:40 utc | 60
@Posted by: peter | Mar 17, 2017 6:45:01 PM | 14
Quote, "There's lots on here still maintaining that Trump's a good guy but he has lots people trying to make it hard to do the right thing. "
Just like Obama, Trump was elected on an anti-war agenda and turned coat as soon as he got to the White House. There is a reason for that. In the USA, war is big business. Whoever is in power, and whatever his personal ideas are, does not change the system, which was built during WW2 and makes billions. Wish I knew what the solution is.
http://www.entelekheia.fr/why-america-needs-war/
Posted by: Lea | Mar 18 2017 11:30 utc | 61
Haydar @59 wrote:
For aircraft to come into Syrian airspace, carry out a bombing run in an area close to an ACTIVE combat zone with ISIS tells me 1 of 2 things: either 1) the S400 system is useless at detecting incoming aircraft (which seems false) or 2) the Russians picked up the attacking aircraft, and gave the green light for bombing run to take place. I know which version I believe
There is a third possibility. The fact of the matter is that the S400 still hasn't received its long range missiles. Only one Russian mobile system carries a missile with a 250 km range, and that is the s300VM4.
The vm4 can only carry 2 such missiles inside gigantic tubes. The S400 still carries the standard missile tube carried by the average s 300. It is therefore reasonable to assume the missiles carried are of medium range.
Scroll to the bottom to read about the s300 vm4 http://www.military-today.com/missiles/s300v.htm
Posted by: Wwinsti | Mar 18 2017 12:26 utc | 62
@62 Wwinsti
You may be right, and my expertise does not extend to military matters, however from a strategic point of view, it looks bad for Russian.
The Russians stated that the S400 was deployed in Syria, now I would have thought they would use their most capable system as a deterrent. Either the Israelis have called their S400 bluff and won, showing that the Russians have deployed a system that is deficient for the task, or the Russians are in some way complicit in what happened. either way, Russia's credibility seems to have been dented.
Thoughts of an Iraqi abroad...
Posted by: Hayder | Mar 18 2017 13:21 utc | 63
@40 jfl
The Russians are already seen as the bad guys in the US. It is absurd that otherwise nice Americans, the people I encounter in my life, are repeating this trope ad nauseum, harkoning to the days of "The Russians are Coming." Calling Trump's bluff might be a bad idea, however, as it would further incense the neocons who would push Trump even harder when he would have to back away from the semblance of support for KSA, otherwise facing down Russia OVER Yemen!
However, Yemen would receive attention from the msm and, as the msm has run out of juice for inciting R2p wars abroad, the net effect would be beneficial for Yemen with a higher probability of the public supporting the correct "rebels" this time, all the while with the potential to shine the light on KSA war crimes. The conflict is too confusing for the Joe Budweiser-Tacobell in the US to fathom, however, so they would yield to their intuition and consider any group with the name "rebels" to be fighting the good fight.
But, you are correct in that it would pinch Trump and I don't think Putin is interested in that, yet.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 18 2017 13:48 utc | 64
@40 jfl
The Russians are already seen as the bad guys in the US. It is absurd that otherwise nice Americans, the people I encounter in my life, are repeating this trope ad nauseum, harkoning to the days of "The Russians are Coming." Calling Trump's bluff might be a bad idea, however, as it would further incense the neocons who would push Trump even harder when he would have to back away from the semblance of support for KSA, otherwise facing down Russia OVER Yemen!
However, Yemen would receive attention from the msm and, as the msm has run out of juice for inciting R2p wars abroad, the net effect would be beneficial for Yemen with a higher probability of the public supporting the correct "rebels" this time, all the while with the potential to shine the light on KSA war crimes. The conflict is too confusing for the Joe Budweiser-Tacobell in the US to fathom, however, so they would yield to their intuition and consider any group with the name "rebels" to be fighting the good fight.
But, you are correct in that it would pinch Trump and I don't think Putin is interested in that, yet.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 18 2017 13:49 utc | 65
Note: Started this comment shortly after b posted his.
>>>> b | Mar 18, 2017 4:05:02 AM | 50
They do where it is relevant with regards to Israel. The east is a different story. They Syrian air defenses and the Russian one in Syria are integrated. Not perfect maybe but they are. Along with the Russian S-400 there are Syrian S-300 systems, older but effective S-2 systems and Pantsyr local air defenses.
Except for the longest range variant for S-400, the S-400 system in Latakia doesn't have the range to cover any part of Israeli except in the very north. As far as I can make out, the only operational S-300 systems in Syria are under Russian control in Latakia. It seems that the Syrians ordered six S-300 systems, one of which was sold on to Egypt (was that a Saudi-funded purchase to work out how to counter the S-300 for Israel and USA?), the remainder seem to have not been made operational. Most of the Syrian static air defence is based on the S-200 (aka SA-5) which is about 50 years old though it has been substantially upgraded but in the past the Syrians have not shown that they're really capable of doing static air defence. The Pantsyr is a mobile point defence system with a range of 20-40 kms depending on model so while it would be useful around Damascus or Palmyra for dealing with surprise attacks, it's not much use against standoff attacks. The only way of preventing Israeli surprise attacks from Latakia would be to have 24/7 AWAC cover and combat air patrols over southern Syria. Given the rarity of Israeli attacks that would be a waste of time and money. The other issue that the Russians and Syrians need to be wary of is the capture of air defence systems by the FSA and ISIS, the Syrians seem unwilling or incapable of destroying their equipment when overrun by the terrorists (T4 for example) and since the terrorists don't have an air force why put air defence systems in harms way?
What people underestimate is the difficulty to detect Israeli strikes. They can fly over Israel or Lebanon and launch a cruise missile against Damascus before you can say "hello". This would give the air defense a warning time of less than 2 minutes before impact or so. It's difficult to detect at all and responding in a calculated manner is even more difficult.
I quite agree and it was made far harder when the Syrians were forced out of their radar base in Lebanon atop Mt. Hermon, I believe. A mobile air defence system of Pantsyr might be ideal but no-one would want to live several kms. downrange of their locations unless they could afford to build substantial blast walls.
But the Russian military are certainly in agreed upon common control of the Syrian network and will have their (political) guidelines of how to act in each and every case. If need be the Russians will hardly refrain from shooting down an Israeli airplane that launches on Syria even if that airplane is in Israeli airspace.Again FWIW I quite agree. The S-300 and S-400 are highly mobile but I've yet to see the Russians make use of that feature with hunter-killer anti-aircraft teams as the Germans and Afghans did against Russian tanks with Panzerfausts and RPG-7s respectively. If you want to scare Israel pilots put a few such teams in the field in southern Syria, but perhaps the Russians are reserving that tactic for when they really need it.
Pro-Russian forces in Israel's "Jewish" (most Russians in Israel aren't) society are very strong. If Putin calls upon them Netanyahoo is political toast.If Netanyahoo can't persuade enough western European Jews to immigrate to counter faster population growth among the Palestinians, perhaps he can get a few million Russian "Jews" to do so instead. Netanyahoo and the Zionists need Putin far more than he needs them.
Posted by: Ghostship | Mar 18 2017 14:03 utc | 66
@37 agreed
Easy to admit you are wrong when there is something besides your ego at stake, i.e. the lives of innocents the world over continually "reaped" by the empire's killing machine. I think that Trump is making a foolish mistake, because I never counted him that smart. What he could have done was, I believe, not outside the realm of possibility, but the facts don't lie so far:
1. Delayed infrastructure plan
2. Endorsed Ryan-care (throwing in his hat with that wormy-bitch!)
3. Selling arms to KSA
4. Increased MIC spending
Just a few, and I admit that his take on Syria so far is muddled and indiscernible, especially when you take into account that Russia will not allow partition of Syria.
Et tu, Trumpus?
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 18 2017 14:06 utc | 67
jfl | Mar 18, 2017 5:50:29 AM | 56
according to the syrians this last report was by a squadron of israeli jets.
AMN are a bit prone to hyperbole, it was four aircraft which is a flight rather than a squadron (Israeli attack squadrons appear to consist of 16 aircraft).
Posted by: Ghostship | Mar 18 2017 14:18 utc | 68
Posted by: Hayder | Mar 18, 2017 9:21:36 AM | 63
If I understand strategy correctly you don't show what you can do when provoked but wait for real war.
Otherwise you help your enemy prepare for it.
I think it would take a Russian phone call to stop the Israelis whenever Russians consider it necessary.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2017 14:55 utc | 69
The slaughter will continue until and unless the money flows to support it stop.
The money flows will not stop until/unless the countries of the world have had enough of the killing and will coalesce around another economic power center like China......AND stop buying US Treasuries.
Then the murders will stop or we will go extinct from the hubris of the elite not being able to handle losing control of global finance.
Thank you b for your ongoing service to mankind.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 18 2017 14:59 utc | 70
Peter 14
I'm part way into The Roosevelt Myth. FDR's first 100 days were haphazard and slap-dash efforts to throw as much out there as possible. But most of these things were not his ideas but the ideas of others and he had to backtrack many times. He also ran as a conservative and ranted against govt waste with Hoover and deficits. FDR took office. He pushed for 25% pay cut for govt employees but then pushed programs that used over $3 billion for things like NRA, WPA, etc. Deficits exploded. Reminds me of Trump for some reason. Could Trump be a Roosevelt Republican?
b
Your pictures at the top reminded me of the times when they swap pictures around to change the blame ... and do lazy journalism. Why send journalists and photographers everywhere to get the real story/news, when you can recycle pictures and reprint press releases from "activists" like White Helmets? At what point will the latest damage be used to push a different agenda and demonize a different "enemy?"
Leaving Somalia for Yemen? Why? One sounds as bad as the other if not worse. At least some are paying attention because our MSM does not unless it is part of an agenda.
Posted by: Curtis | Mar 18 2017 15:00 utc | 71
Peter AU 49
Good point. That sort of failed attack and its costs in lives and equipment got big press here and political hay, too. But for some reason failures and costs elsewhere are not reported. It's hypocrisy and media myopia.
Posted by: Curtis | Mar 18 2017 15:02 utc | 72
Re the 'Israeli Airstrikes' ... longish explanation/clarifications, TL;DR ?
Syria nor Russia have never been reticent to call-out US/coalition airstrikes on SAA forces. Quite the opposite.
The S400, modernized S300 series and lesser/older S300-200 systems are not used to fire their missiles at maximum range, that is not how they operate via doctrine nor operationally. The exact version the Syrians may have been given to deploy is unconfirmed, nor even if effectively deployed/operational, AFAIK. Only the S400, S300VM4 & Antey 2500 are capable of the 250-400km MAXIMUM engagement ranges, and only under very limited, specific circumstances. Ie, not in real world engagements.
However, there is no doubt the Russian systems were deployed to provide an air defense umbrella over their strategic assets and deployments in western Syria, ie Latakia locale, etc. Those deployments cannot cover all of Syria. Not ... even ... close ...
The often breathlessly quoted maximum ranges do not reflect the operational firing range of the most capable versions of these SAM systems batteries. 'Slant Range' to target, detection range of target, category of target and available missile versions ready to launch, are the crucial factors in the real world. The altitude of the attacking aircraft determines its possible detection & engagement (DE) range, the lower the altitude the shorter the DE. The higher the altitude the greater the detection range but the shorter the relative engagement range (re theoretical maximum) given linear distance & altitude climb (Slant Range).
It is the radars and missile versions capabilities/combinations, ready to launch, that determine what target can be detected and possibly engaged and at what range, this varies dramatically by target type, ie, Ballistic Missile, Cruise Missile, manned Aircraft, unmanned Aircraft, AWACS, etc
If the likely target of the opposing strike aircraft is not identified/assessed as a Russian strategic asset or pre-agreed Syrian/SAA strategic asset, the Rules of Engagement (ROE) would highly likely preclude a Russian response, even if within 'operational' range & detected. No one wants to start WWIII. Non strategic assets are expendable and have to depend on lesser systems for defense, ie Syrian S200, etc. Military/Political 'Necessity' is applied, ruthlessly.
Other systems such as TOR/Pantsir are deployed & integrated into the S400/300 systems multi-layer Air Defense (AD) umbrella re overall multi-layered mutual defense & support. They are only very rarely deployed in isolation, re doctrine.
The various reports of the Israeli Airstrikes are piecemeal and highly conflicting.
The Israeli have historically limited themselves to attacks they can plausibly-deny as being against Hezbollah/Iranian targets supposedly transferring/transporting arms. A strike in Palmyra locale does NOT fit.
Amongst the various uncorroborated reports is an Israeli jet was damaged & one was downed over 'occupied territory'. The latter is an unusually specific and entirely out of place phrase, especially given a supposed strike on Palmyra locale ?!
Hence, in the current 'Fog of War' re the Israeli Airstrikes, my best guess, partial assessment given insufficient, accurate nor reliable reports, is the strike was on a target in southern Syria, Not Palmyra, and a jet was downed, in the 'occupied' Golan. This aligns with no Russian AD launches, ie out of range, not a strategic threat, outside ROE. Also aligns with past Israeli strikes/patterns limited to S & SE Syria, usually using stand-off ordnance and calculated avoidance of Russian SAM 'capabilities'.
A probable reason for the conflicting and fragmented, false(?) reports is to pollute/cover the loss of the downed Israeli jet to maintain the myth of the IDF invincibility/superiority. They do it as a matter of routine.
Lastly, and most crucially, military forces/commands conduct operations based on opposing force capabilities. NO Israeli strike aircraft in their inventory has any better than a ~2-10% chance of survivability if within detection & engagement range, if fired upon, by s400, S300VM4, modernized S300 AD systems. ~2-10%. Unless they were to launch an all out series of multi spectrum strikes using numerous various aircraft assets in multi flight/squadron packages, against the RUSSIAN SAM/AD batteries, FIRST, taking significant losses in the process. Welcome to WWIII, in that scenario.
Hence, they (Israeli's) haven't in the past, and don't see any reasonable rationale for 'em now, nor in the foreseeable future, re strikes on Palmyra locale or ever within engagement envelope of Russian AD systems (integrated-systems/multi-layered capabilities/Integrated command & control). YMMV
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 15:32 utc | 73
rg the lg @20
USA is not a 'settler nation' anymore. Most people here were born here. Steeling Indian land (de-humanized as 'savages') was largely complete by 1880 - 140 years, 7 generations ago. This was well before establishment of the modern, post-war world order.
Tagging USA as a 'settler nation' is being done as psyop that brings us more in line with Israel.
FecklessLeft @37
Sooo ... give the Democrats a pass? The Democrats want the Left to waste its time and energy on Trump hate. Look what he did today!!!!
The answer to Trump is building a Movement that is not dependent on the corrupt, complicit Democratic Party.
My suggestion: direct democracy via The Pirate Party. The principled left and principled right can only wrest power away from the monied Parties by joining forces. And only direct democracy can bring them together.
@Peter_AU
IMO the factions are NOT Empire vs. No Empire but different versions/models of empire. Trump's 'America First' is more centralized, the Obama-Clinton model allows vassals to take action with covert support/control. The latter is best for US pols that want to line their pockets.
The crucial problem for the Empire is SCO. The neocons 'lost the peace', thereby driving Russia and China together.
Neocon 'Never Trump'-ers want conflict with Russia because peace with Russia undermines the lucrative Zionist-Whabbi project. Those that are hyper-critical of Trump and Putin are aligned with the neocon faction (though they will vehemently deny that they are).
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 18 2017 15:43 utc | 74
Jackrabbit 73
I still think that the "Obama-Clinton model" of vassals (or jihadi proxies) also allows them to skirt the anti-war crowd by not having large amounts of US troops on the ground. That way the real war efforts and costs can be hidden somewhat by the media.
Posted by: Curtis | Mar 18 2017 15:52 utc | 75
Curtis @74
Yes. That's part of the appeal. Hidden costs and controlled media mean they can play God.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 18 2017 16:40 utc | 76
Outraged 72
When Russia moved the S-300 into Tartus, Russian MoD also announced they had completed an electronics upgrade of the Syrian S-200 systems. According to wikipedia its a large missile thirty something feet long weighing seven tons at takeoff, reaches a speed of mach 8
Reasonably long range, depending on the electronics.
These things with upgraded electrics would seem to be more than capable of taking down the Israeli's if they wandered into its range.
Not sure where the S-200s are based, but only 100k or so from Damascus to Jordan border, which would cover all of the Golan border.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 16:46 utc | 77
The wisdom of sanctioning supposed enemies gets us this
The opening of a Beijing representative office by the Central Bank of Russia was a “very timely” move to aid specific cooperation, including bond issuance, anti-money laundering and anti-terrorism measures between China and Russia, said Dmitry Skobelkin, deputy governor of the Central Bank of Russia.
Russia is preparing to issue its first federal loan bonds denominated in Chinese yuan.
Could this single event become a Nuc'lur event?
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18 2017 16:54 utc | 78
Outraged @30
(E5)
The Presidential Unit Citation (PUC), originally called the Distinguished Unit Citation, is awarded to units of the Uniformed services of the United States, and those of allied countries, for extraordinary heroism in action against an armed enemy. The collective degree of valor (combat heroism) against an armed enemy by the unit nominated for the PUC is the same as that which would warrant award of the individual award of the Distinguished Service Cross, Air Force Cross or Navy Cross.
I have a PUC. What you got?
PS - Go F*#K yourself.
b, please forgive me for violating MoA behavior rules but this person has been very insulting and disrespectful to me personally intimating that as an E5 (Petty Officer 2nd Class) that I have no right to express my opinion or that my opinion is of no worth.
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18 2017 17:09 utc | 79
@ Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18, 2017 12:18:49 AM | 40
Russia will only ever deploy S400 or modernized S300 series where they can effectively physically protect by ground & air as well as physically control access. That requires accompanying guard forces, logistics, etc, a not insignificant combined-arms expeditionary force. Never in isolation. Can't see 'em doing it, yet, re Yemen. They would make suitable diplomatic/military noises in advance should they consider such, at Yemens 'formal' request. And everyone would know the Russkies were comin' ;)
@ Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18, 2017 12:46:22 PM | 76
Upgraded S200s are capable of taking out F-16s for example, especially if multiple simultaneous launches from previously unidentified site/s. The Israelis have for many years now limited themselves to launching stand-off weapons from within their borders (& Golan & Lebanese overflights) to reduce the likelihood of the platform (actual aircraft) being engaged. Within SW, S & SE Syria they can even use dumb/smart iron bombs by doing a high altitude 'Lob', let alone launching actual missiles from the other side of the border. Suspect on many occasions they use the readily detectable aircraft flights to distract/divert from harder to detect simultaneous Drone strikes, within southern Syria ...
Re all this talk of 250-400km engagement ranges against manned aircraft that are flying tactically FAST and LOW re missile launches or loitering beyond the border HIGH & Slow as a 'Launch platform', for example, especially given the propaganda rubbish from MI6 hangouts like the BBC & the wider MSM, simply peruse the following graphic, S-300PMU & S-400 Engagement Envelope (Png image), re S-series battery system/missile/target/altitude/range/radar-horizon limitations & capabilities (Note: Technical specifications without considering operational limitations, doctrine or opposing force actions/capabilities).
For anyone interested, with the time & inclination re accessible referenced detailed facts/analysis, see the following:
Systems Overview - Almaz S-300P/PT/PS/PMU/PMU1/PMU2 Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf SA-10/20/21 Grumble/Gargoyle - Technical Report APA-TR-2006-1201
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 17:22 utc | 80
@ Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18, 2017 1:09:30 PM | 78
Remarkable, Alberto. Generally respect your posts, didn't reply to your earlier (PUC) since it made no sense at the time.
E5 was the 'Admiralty Code' rating attributed to the Iva S dis/mis-information, crap. And the entire post was addressed to the article referenced and its author. Not you, personally, in any way.
A misinterpretation/misunderstanding on your part, that has fired you up ? If so, no offense taken re your post @78. Otherwise, this poster doesn't engage in pissing contests, nor 'baiting'. Your call.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 17:39 utc | 81
@ Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18, 2017 1:09:30 PM | 78
Remarkable, Alberto. Generally respect your posts, didn't reply to your earlier (PUC) since it made no sense at the time.
E5 was the 'Admiralty Code' rating attributed to the Iva S dis/mis-information, crap. And the entire post was addressed to the article referenced and its author. Not you, personally, in any way.
A misinterpretation/misunderstanding on your part, that has fired you up ? If so, no offense taken re your post @78. Otherwise, this poster doesn't engage in pissing contests, nor 'baiting'. Your call.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 17:39 utc | 82
Admiralty code??? I see you on the Street I will knock you out. If you are British I'll throw in some free dental work. No charge.
Posted by: ALberto | Mar 18 2017 18:31 utc | 83
Israel has hit SAA personnel perhaps a dozen times in aid of Al Qaeda/ISIS PROXIES.
Russia dares not attack Israeli jets even though they are in flagrant violation of international law.
Why? Jewish money in US/UK politics essentially means Israel is above the law.
Period.
Which is why no one will discuss the HIGHLY disproportionate $ given y Jews to both parties.
Posted by: Florin N | Mar 18 2017 18:43 utc | 84
@Hayder 6
You're right, ideology is a powerful tool/ weapon, more so than money or missiles. But as far as ISIS is concerned, the way I see it they fight exactly for as long as their supplies of cash, arms and captagon last. Most of them anyway.
The Saudis would love everybody to believe that this is a 'sectarian' conflict, so every Sunni would feel morally obliged to fight on their side. But their alliances and militias are fragile, held together by money and fear. As you say, the vast majority of people want peace, and I suppose they can see quite clearly that this is just the House of Saud trying to hold on to power...don't you think?
And of course, they have this very young, potentially restless population in KSA, so they have to find ways to get the most hot-blooded young men out of the country. Europe did the same in former times, with the crusades, military campaigns, colonialism...
(yes, this is just my analysis from afar - feel free to completely disagree with me! :-)
Posted by: smuks | Mar 18 2017 18:45 utc | 85
outraged @ 72
I follow your analysis, but ask a question.
You say
" my best guess, partial assessment given insufficient, accurate nor reliable reports, is the strike was on a target in southern Syria, Not Palmyra, and a jet was downed, in the 'occupied' Golan."
Question:
If a jet was in fact downed, how is it that there are no published pictures of it, and no named eyewitnesses?
Posted by: mauisurfer | Mar 18 2017 19:26 utc | 86
Jackrabit 73
Have to agree with you on the different versions of empire. Becoming clearer by the day.
Trump faction's version of empire is only now just starting to take shape with solid actions.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 19:28 utc | 87
@smuks 84
I agree, money and fear are not enough for a cohesive, well motivated fighting force- there needs to be an ideology, a "belief in the cause" otherwise those fighting would not risk their lives, and at the first sign of real danger, will abandon their posts or surrender- the Saudi troops on the boarder with Yemen is a good example.
I think your analysis of ISIS is correct, but only at a certain level. There are several layers to ISIS. There is the leadership, whom I believe are NOT true believers in the ideology of ISIS, but rather use it to attract like minded individuals to their cause- now these are the "true believers" who are used as the foot soldiers and are basically cannon fodder and are too "brain washed" or too deluded to realise that they are being used. As for the leadership, who backs them, who supports them etc.. that's a different matter and now is not the time to delve into this. The leadership will continue to use the "foot soldiers" as long as the supply of men, weapons and money persists. "Cut off" the fuel and the fire will stop!
Thoughts of an Iraqi abroad...
Posted by: Hayder | Mar 18 2017 19:47 utc | 88
@ Posted by: mauisurfer | Mar 18, 2017 3:26:11 PM | 85
Israel has an all-powerful Military Censor with absolute control over all media, even more power than UK MI6 D-Notices, where the penalty for breaches is frequently prison for years (without public announcement).
IF it was shot down on 'occupied territory', ie the Golan Heights, then its on land under the military occupation and absolute control of the IDF as well as physically isolated/cordoned re civilians ingress/egress. Just as for any military aircraft loss that's politically damaging, IF it was shotdown it's crash site would be very quickly sealed off re access with an inner and outer perimeter, yes ?
SAA may have known it was downed (tracking), maybe even ground elements observed it shot/going down, yet have pictures of the other side of the border or access to the crashsite ? Unnamed eyewitnesses ? All previous caveats stand.
There is plenty of evidence of numerous Saudi Apache helicopters shotdown by Yemens Houthis, ie photo's of the wreckage, yet Saudi says every single time, 'No losses!' Hence, Saudi 'credibility' = Zero(0), same for the IDF, IMV (ie. do an Image search for 'Saudi Apache helicopter').
A followup to #30
The 'Al-Jarida' newspaper that longtime Mossad/IDF media shill/operative Avi Issacharoff of the Times of Israel, uses as a source for his fabricated article, is an arabic only newspaper in Kuwait. How convenient.
'Al-Jarida' is widely known as taking a strongly sectarian stance (SUNNI) and any article to be published that 'could' be 'controversial' must be submitted to Kuwaits Emir for prior approval before being published, apparently.
Alas, Avi S's fabricated 'crap' cannot be graded as lower than E5 on the Admiralty Code*, as Reliability of Source = 'E - Unreliable' & Accuracy of data = '5 - Improbable', is as low as it gets, IMHO.
* The Admiralty Code has been used by NATO & AUSCANZUKUS for decades in assessing the reliability of the source and the assessed level of confidence of information.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 19:52 utc | 89
@ Posted by: mauisurfer | Mar 18, 2017 3:26:11 PM | 85
Israel has an all-powerful Military Censor with absolute control over all media, even more power than UK MI6 D-Notices, where the penalty for breaches is frequently prison for years (without public announcement).
IF it was shot down on 'occupied territory', ie the Golan Heights, then its on land under the military occupation and absolute control of the IDF as well as physically isolated/cordoned re civilians ingress/egress. Just as for any military aircraft loss that's politically damaging, IF it was shotdown it's crash site would be very quickly sealed off re access with an inner and outer perimeter, yes ?
SAA may have known it was downed (tracking), maybe even ground elements observed it shot/going down, yet have pictures of the other side of the border or access to the crashsite ? Unnamed eyewitnesses ? All previous caveats stand.
There is plenty of evidence of numerous Saudi Apache helicopters shotdown by Yemens Houthis, ie photo's of the wreckage, yet Saudi says every single time, 'No losses!' Hence, Saudi 'credibility' = Zero(0), same for the IDF, IMV (ie. do an Image search for 'Saudi Apache helicopter').
A followup to #30
The 'Al-Jarida' newspaper that longtime Mossad/IDF media shill/operative Avi Issacharoff of the Times of Israel, uses as a source for his fabricated article, is an arabic only newspaper in Kuwait. How convenient.
'Al-Jarida' is widely known as taking a strongly sectarian stance (SUNNI) and any article to be published that 'could' be 'controversial' must be submitted to Kuwaits Emir for prior approval before being published, apparently.
Alas, Avi S's fabricated 'crap' cannot be graded as lower than E5 on the Admiralty Code*, as Reliability of Source = 'E - Unreliable' & Accuracy of data = '5 - Improbable', is as low as it gets, IMHO.
* The Admiralty Code has been used by NATO & AUSCANZUKUS for decades in assessing the reliability of the source and the assessed level of confidence of information.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 19:52 utc | 90
@ Hayder who ended his comment thought with: " "Cut off" the fuel and the fire will stop!"
Exactly what I am saying as well. Follow the private money and international finance tools.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 18 2017 20:25 utc | 91
@ Outraged
Seems likely the Israeli target was near Palmyra.
From Sana news.. "In two letters sent by the Foreign and Expatriates Ministry to the UN Secretary General and the President of Security Council, the Ministry said that in flagrant defiance of the international legitimacy and UN resolutions and the sovereignty and the inviolability of the Syrian territory, four Israeli warplanes violated the Syrian airspace in al-Breij area through the Lebanese territories at 2:40 am and targeted a military site in the eastern countryside of Homs province."
http://sana.sy/en/?p=102361
Haaretz... "There were no Israeli casualties in the incident, and the IDF military spokesperson's unit confirmed Israel struck targets in Syria in an exceptionally rare statement.
There have been several reports over the past five years that Israel has targeted weapons convoys in Syria headed for Hezbollah in Lebanon, but until now Israel has not officially addressed these claims.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.777902
Also Russia called in the Israeli ambassador.
Badie Hamya - Hezbollah commander - seems to have been the target of the attack.. was killed in the Israeli attack near T-4 airbase, though some say Quneitra?
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18 2017 20:49 utc | 92
@ Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18, 2017 4:49:50 PM | 90
Well, there we have it, the 'Fog of war' has somewhat lifted.
Therefore the Israeli's aircraft are deliberately skirting the Russian S-series systems (Fast & Low (NOE), undetected/engage-able beyond ~120Km), through Sth then E Syria, have directly violated Syria airspace by deep ingress flights, committed an Act of War by targeting a SAA military site, whilst not at war, and without provocation. Not to mention the points made re Sovereignty and that 'notional' thing called International Law & the UN Charter.
Remarkable, they almost never confirm a strike, especially when aircraft have actually violated territory, not just their ordnance. Hm, wonder if this somehow fits into the recent uptick in BS articles/reports re the Evil™ Hezbollah/Iranians & mythical rocket factories ... trying to add 'weight' to the narrative, perhaps ?
Hm, less advanced Syrian SAMs (S200s ?) fired on IDF Fighters returning to Israeli territory (Golan?), at least one SAM intercepted by Israeli AD systems(photos), missile wreckage in both Israel & Jordan (lost guidance, overshot ?) ?
Perhaps the Russians may add additional battery complexes and extend the integrated AD umbrella further S/SE ? or just commit some CAP, or both perhaps ? Or not.
So, who are the 'Rogue Nations', again ? The IDF 'Targetted Killings' (TK) gave birth to our 24/7 Drone-Strikes, we used to denounce TKs 'em in the UN, prior to 2001. :(
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 21:42 utc | 93
@Outraged 79: System specs not withstanding, speculations about the s 400's lack of a long range missile aren't new. Consider the National Interest a hostile witness.
That doesn't mean the triumf's radar can't handle a long range missile.
In fact, the requirement of the Israeli fighters to be protected by arrow 3 missiles might indicate that the f16i's spine full of ew jamming equipment was not enough to protect the attacking planes. Pure speculation on my part, of course.
@Peter AU #90:
Excellent leg work there. Still can't explain why Hezbollah would report the Lebanon border area as the location of combat death, but one of the Israeli denials clearly states "Northern Syria" as the point of the air strike.
Posted by: Wwinsti | Mar 18 2017 22:24 utc | 94
Israeli Prime Minister Promises Continue Hitting Hezbollah in Syria
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised that Tel Aviv will continue to attack Hezbollah facilities, located in Syria. The statement was made just a day after Israel carried out airstrikes on the territory of the Arab country and admitted this fact.
i guess he's got the green light from putin? i wonder if the saudis will be allowed to join in too?
Posted by: jfl | Mar 18 2017 23:44 utc | 95
@ Posted by: Wwinsti | Mar 18, 2017 6:24:42 PM | 92
Our warmongers actually like to always refer to maximum capabilities (overcook), without context, to justify the MICC $. Ie Bomber/Missile/Mineshaft Gap (imaginary).
The Russians have long range missiles for the S400, the unknown question is whether they went operational, and where ? No way to easily tell what's in a launch tube/canister. For example, they have 'magazine' inserts, so you can fit 4 smaller missiles in one large tube, sneaky russkies ;)
The articles pretty good actually, but, the Long range missiles fit in the same large canister/tube as previous, so 4 per launcher, as before. Yet there are other configs as well, such as two small tucked in between two large canisters on a single launcher. None of this binary, or black & white, huge flexibility, and the Russians like it that way, keeps everybody guessin' ;)
The key issue that keeps being missed is the effect of altitude in combination with target size/type given earth curvature re detection and therefore targeting by radar & subsequent engagement by appropriate missile. Longer range missiles don't matter if the target is aircraft size, fast and low, over the horizon ... in that scenario, best detection/engagement range is ~120Km, regardless of max missile range ... see graphic in post @ 79. To increase detection & targeting of fighter aircraft fast & low, Nap of the Earth (NOE) beyond that, it's a question of effective & accurate upgrades to longer range 'Over the Horizon Radars' (OTHR), not the missiles themselves ... but as the range increases with OTHR it's accuracy diminishes ...
Palmyra and Damascus are ~250Km & ~230Km linear distance from Latakia. Therefore, the RU Latakia integrated complexes of S4/300 batteries are short by minimum ~110-130Km re Fast & Low NOE strike aircraft engagement, and at maximum range even then. Actually worse than that, 'cause it doesn't take into account stand-off ordnance by the strike aircraft ...
So, does anybody actual have an idea of where the S4/300 SAM complexes are deployed, other than Latakia & almost certainly Tartus ?
To cover Syria S4/300 complexes, with EFFECTIVE integrated/layered mutually supporting/overlapping defense-in-depth Tor/Pantsir systems as well, would have to be positioned along an internal border approximately every 220Km (site 1 120km > < 120Km site 2). Since Syria has open borders under threat in every direction, that would require a shitload of SAM complexes, and they'd all have to be emplaced, secured and assigned local defense. At what $ cost, where do the qualified techs to operate & support 'em come from, plus local security/defense ? Can't see it happening. Best case realistic coverage is Western Syria, Damascus to Latakia/Alleppo parallel to the coastline, suppose ~0-40Km inland, giving coverage up to ~160Km inland from the western coastline, IMHO ... as territory is recovered and secured add another complex and increase inland coverage by another ~240Km radius ... all speculative ...
So Southern, Central, Eastern & NE Syria is highly probable undefended re effective SAM. What the SAA could do is scatter ZSU23/4 Shilka, TOR/Pantsir, etc, throughout to ambush low/fast aircraft, but, unless carefully concealed, would simply become defenseless stand-off ... targets ...
Re the Arrows having to defend the F16's ... old systems like S200s, modernized or not, have to be fired in large numbers, salvos, to overwhelm in order to have a chance at a hit, given the need to engage/intercept with Arrows as the IAF was hightailing it back to Israel, the pilots would have been prayin' hard.
If those same fighters HAD BEEN successfully detected/targeted/engaged by S4/300 systems ~9 out of every 10 fighters would be smokin' wreckage, EW/ECM pods or not. The Israeli's learnt that lesson re Russian 'current tech' SAMs back in '73 the hard way. Hence all the skulking about in Sth & E Syria.
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 18 2017 23:54 utc | 96
Out of four Israeli aircraft, it seems one downed, one damaged, and another possibly saved by an arrow interceptor. Not bad for the old S-200.
Israeli's couldn't jam the upgraded S-200 electronics?
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 19 2017 0:24 utc | 97
long-range ... the whole syrian theatre is short range ... these s-3/400 systems are mobile ... that is their most salient feature ... as of now they seem to be positioned to protect russian aerospace military assets only. syria needs [has?] s-3/400 units of its own? it clearly needs them, and needs to put them in palymyra, and other positions were syria and her ground allies need protection. they are defensive weapons, destabilizing only to the plans of aggressors like those of the us-il-gcc axis.
i'm no match for all the retired military geeks on this board in terms of missile specifications, the difference between a 'flight' and a 'squadron', arcane military acronyums ... but the basic outlines of syrian defense are common sense. russia does not seem to be enabling it.
Posted by: jfl | Mar 19 2017 1:07 utc | 98
@ Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 18, 2017 8:24:08 PM | 95
Depends on what 'exactly' was upgraded ... they can actually be upgraded to utilize highly advanced & EW/ECM resilient S4/300 Search & engagement Radar & Command & Control systems, essentially dumping everything in the S200 battery complex, except the missile and launcher or even be directly integrated into exiting S4/300 complexes as additional launchers with S200 missiles onboard. If the actual S200 missiles onboard radar was also upgraded, then the EW/ECM challenge is similar to S4/300, only disadvantage is significantly less maneuverable missile in flight, essentially immobile fixed launch sites & longer ready to launch time as are liquid fueled (more dangerous for ground crews too). The proximity fuse on S200 triggers a 217KG warhead with ~37,000 fragments in a 120' arc. Carefully staggered & spread salvo/volley fire under S4/300 complex control with upgraded onboard radar ... hm, might explain the requests for Arrow ABM interceptions as the IAF was running for the border ...
Posted by: Outraged | Mar 19 2017 1:49 utc | 99
98
Plenty of publicly available material, both from the manufacturers and western defence analysts on the web to give the average public a reasonable idea of the capabilities and limitations of the various soviet/Russian air defence systems. Latest systems and upgrades may be different.
Posted by: Peter AU | Mar 19 2017 5:01 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
War by starvation. Introduced to the US by Lincoln and his war crime generals Sherman and Sheridan during the war of Northern Aggression and used by Yankees in virtually every war since.
Posted by: Heros | Mar 17 2017 20:01 utc | 1