Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 25, 2017

Librulism Run Amok - "My 7-Year-Old Is Transgender"

A society concerned about the welfare of its children would protect this boy from his mother's abuse.  But here she is rewarded with Washington Post op-ed space to promote her politics to the detriment of her child.

My 7-year-old daughter Henry is transgender. She’d change Trump’s mind.

The first time we knew that Henry was different, she was 2. When she found her cousin’s Barbie doll, she lit up like a Christmas tree. “The hair, Mama,” she cooed. “Look at her looong hair!” Henry continued to show us, in every way she could, that she wanted to live as a girl.

Henry is a boy. His mother is as crazy as this dude.

I have raised children. Two, three or seven year old kids have no real concept of gender. They can and do change their roles all the time. Henry is a boy, born a boy with all the biological accessories. A boy who likes to play with dolls is perfectly normal and does not express or constitutes anything special.

Every boy I watched growing up tried and mimicked at times a girls role - put on skirts, put on lipstick etc. (I also inherited pictures showing me as a child doing such.)  Likewise girls also change their role into male ones, taking up typical male role behavior, "I am the father now." That is the "play age".

Later, in the early pubertal development, comes a phase where sexual enthusiasm to persons of ones own gender is prevalent. A boy's first "best friend forever" is usually a boy. The girl's "best friend forever" is usually a girl. It does in no way mean that these kids are homosexual. After that phase comes the real sexual orientation and with it the development of a real gender identity. Only when that process is finished can a judgement be made whether the psychological gender identity really differs from the biological one. Only then can real transsexuality, which is a rare phenomenon, be diagnosed.

Is there any peer review research that comes up with a different conclusion?

Real transsexuals can find help with a medical gender change. The country with the most liberal attitude towards such is (the usually demonized) Iran.

I find the current propaganda campaign in "librul" U.S. media for the "rights" of "transsexual children" deeply disturbing. It puts policy above the welfare of children. Equally disturbing is the role of parents in creating such "transsexuals".

The mother writing the WaPo op-ed is doing her child no favor in projecting her preferences on him. She reminds me of those crazy parents who sent their 7 year old child to blow herself up in a police station in Damascus. That girl did not believe that she was a boy. But she believed, like her parents, that she would immediately go to heaven after killing Syrian policemen by blowing herself up in a police station. Her father had told her so.

What is the difference between that father and the mother that tells her five year old boy to use a public girls bathroom because she think he feels like one?

Posted by b on February 25, 2017 at 13:29 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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I don't know how you could decide which country is more tolerant of transgender. Thailand is so accustomed to it they even have an idiom, "woman of the second type." I'm sure there are some who are born female and identify male, but they are less obvious. Many prominent people in the TV and movie industries are trans, although the leading ladies are (almost?) always cis-female. They are often of mixed race, though. Polygamy was accepted here until about WWII, and many men still try to have a minor wife, although the women have become very intolerant of the practice.

Posted by: Procopius | Feb 26 2017 14:49 utc | 101

@101 Yes but you don't find many full-blown katois working in banks or government offices. They mostly work in the entertainment industry.

Posted by: dh | Feb 26 2017 14:54 utc | 102

Agree with b. One major argument is missing. ‘Transgender’ therapy - aka turning a boy into a girl and v- v, hormones: blockers/added, surgery, and other ‘therapy’ is incredibly invasive and harmful to health. (see link, just an ex.)

Who would dream of going so against ‘nature’ with the help of big pharma and surgeons? One category - imho they do it for gain and are aware of at least some of the risks: some in high level competitive sports (not specifically trans-sex.)

Children are vulnerable and conventional, and when told “they have the right to really be a boy” or whatnot, they believe, and comply. Also it renders the child ‘special’, he/she, the parents, get a huge dose of attention.

It is a variation of the Munchausen syndrome.

Ahmadinejad wasn’t kidding when he said there were no homosexuals in Iran, or words to that effect. (Actually Iran is the no.2 for trans-sex ops, Thailand is 1.) What he meant was that in Iran the ‘inner person’ its ‘intrinsic nature’ if you will, is completely accepted and external characteristics can be made to fit it. (>> no same-sex sex. See hopehely at 43. Jen, tomo, Scylla, others.) The inner counts for more than the outer, a kind of fundamentalism. (Many gays in Iran have changed sex to be accepted.)

Re. trans-gender ‘issues’ the US has taken the same road as Iran (but not for the same reasons!) while rejecting ‘race’ as a defining mechanism, throwing that into ‘culture’, ‘personal situation’ (poverty, etc.) or even ‘beliefs’ such as applies to muslims, ‘radical ..’, djihadists, etc.

The move reinforces personal individuation (all special *snowflakes*) on some criteria (sex.. food preference.. esoteric religions.. special maladies and quirks..brain processes...etc.) while condemning other distinctions that deal, briefly stated, with socio-economic difference (equated to “racism”), which then can’t be examined.

The US has always been heavy on racial-social categorization (colonial past, superior and inferior beings, etc.) but also on creating ‘markets’ that target particular segments.

The difference between girls n’ boys was invented by Biz. who loathed the fact that families used children’s clothes as hand-downs indifferently. Having baby-child-clothes + toys + appearance differentiated by sex would up sales by at least 25%. (See Pampers today for ex.) Therefore pink vs. blue, dolls vs. trains, and endless jaw about what PC girl/boy behavior/choices should be. Then switching from one to the other becomes another money-maker…for a different set.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/03/25/american-college-of-pediatrics-reaches-decision-transgenderism-of-children-is-child-abuse-321212

No it is not a trivial issue. It is linked to deep politics.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 26 2017 14:56 utc | 103

@ Trisha Drscoll #30: thank you. in many first american tribes, at least in the great plains, southwest, and california, transgendered are actually revered as ‘two spirits, doubly blessed’.

a trans woman ‘margaret’ at then FDL readers diaries, told a bit of her story, including being discharged by the navy: ‘Why the “T” is Also Important’

https://shadowproof.com/2010/12/22/why-the-t-is-also-important/

“Sure, he [jerry springer] likes to say “it’s just entertainment” but somehow I don’t expect anybody who exploits racial divisions to ridicule a whole class of people to ever be given a television show. That’s why I use the catch all term. That and the fact that it really shouldn’t matter what “flavor” a person is. In my case, I was born with an XXY chromosome, a condition known as Klinefelter’s Syndrome. I was born male but with many feminine characteristics and also sterile. I was extremely lucky. Too many people with chromosomal anomalies also get a stir to their brains as well. The only thing I got was mild autism and an undeniable belief that I was living in the wrong body. . . .”

margaret’s having been on the autism spectrum is also interesting, as the National Geo someone had mentioned above indicates there is some correlation between the two; fascinating article altogether, including the wide spectrum of gender.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/01/how-science-helps-us-understand-gender-identity/

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 26 2017 15:34 utc | 104

jammes @ 71 said: " the big difference is that the usa has had a dominant role on the planet, whereas smaller countries, not so much."

Ah yes, and there in lies the difference james. And that dominance has led to that exceptionalism which MOST Americans believe in. And with over 900 military bases around the globe, our sociopathic youth help spread that contempt many Americans have for "lesser" nations.

Thanks for that generous post, but we, as Americans don't deserve it...IMO.

Posted by: ben | Feb 26 2017 15:38 utc | 105

Icon American feminist Camille Paglia sees this transgender phenomenon as a symptom of western decadence. Here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvFDT0-wmuk
I high recommend anyone to watch. Amazing interview to a Brazilian TV show

Posted by: Nick | Feb 26 2017 15:53 utc | 106

b said "The mother writing the WaPo op-ed is doing her child no favor in projecting her preferences on him. She reminds me of those crazy parents who sent their 7 year old child to blow herself up in a police station in Damascus. That girl did not believe that she was a boy. But she believed, like her parents, that she would immediately go to heaven. Her father had told her so."

"What is the difference between that father and the mother that tells her five year old boy to use a public girl's bathroom because she think he feels like one?"

Parents, especially, have enormous influence on their children's behavior, choices, etc which is how I read b's post. What is the difference b/w a parent convincing their 7 year old to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in the name of Allah with a parent's influence on a child's sexual orientation or ??? (fill in the blank)? Remove the bomb and sexuality and what you have left is the parent's influence on said child.

Children don't begin to break away from that influence until early puberty and they spend the next decade or more, for some a lifetime, trying to reconcile the childhood nature/nurture with the young adult nature/nurture as others noted up thread.

It's not so much how the child expresses themselves, but rather the influence, the pressures, the expectations parents place on their children for them to conform to their beliefs.

b - I don't see a difference with your example where both parents are using their influence, their power, to enforce conformity of their beliefs onto their vulnerable children.

Posted by: h | Feb 26 2017 16:16 utc | 107

Since this post is about identity issues, it turns out that Rachel Dolezal is on the brink of homelessness, according to her at least. An autobiography is on the way, however.

Posted by: aaaa | Feb 26 2017 16:49 utc | 108

aaaa @108

The post ISN'T about identity issues. It's about exploitation.

It's also about the Constitution. Trump has said that bathrooms are a matter for the States.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 17:05 utc | 109

@84 karlof1 - thanks.. seems poison in peoples system is overlooked and handed over to the psychologists who will provide whatever rationale the society would like!

@85 nonsense factory.. yes - depleted uranium in syria, thanks the good ole' usa - and no one is talking about it, least of all the usa who are responsible for it, just like the lead poisoning in the article karlof1 gave @84 and all else done in the name of industry and globalism.

@105 ben... i like to think many americans are quite bright, but they don't seem to be the ones running us foreign policy or much of any policy for that matter.. it seems corporations are calling all the shots and bright people can be bought out with money.. either that, or people give too much cred to the rational mind which has a hard time grasping a more compassionate and empathetic place, stuck only on 'facts', after the fact usually all the time - the lie towards the iraq war being a quick example of one..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2017 17:33 utc | 110

Perhaps it might have been an idea to actually contact some transgender and health organisations first to get some facts.
Even contact a parent of a transgender child or talk to one of the parents groups.
You could have just used the WPATH website to get some information.

I am transgender and I know parents of transgender children and what you have said is factually and provably incorrect.


Some Facts on the Table From Peer Reviewed Scientific Research and Clinical Practise.
- Gender identity forms between 2-5 yeas of age. At that point children can identify what they are and what others are. Once formed it is immutable.
- Gender identity is not related to sexuality.
- For the vast majority (99%) the internal gender identity (what you feel you are) and your gender assigned at birth (based on how your genitals look) match. Putting aside the issue of intersex kids for the moment.
- For a minority they don’t.
- The best evidence we have of why this happens are small brain differences (as found in dissections and MRI scans) where trans females match cis females, and trans males match cis males.
- This seems to be caused by differential hormone surges in the womb. Where one surge will cause the foetus to form as a male and without which will remain a female. The other later surge seems to be related to brain development, where the hard wired gender identity part is set.

- Diagnosis is not based on playing with dolls a few times, it is based on diagnosing persistent, consistent and insistent behaviour over a significant period of time as well as the level of distress the child is experiencing.

- If a transgender person is not accepted in their true gender identity they suffer Gender Dysphoria (GD), which is a killer.


- The protocols vary according to the child, but for those with extreme Gender Dysphoria they usually are:
(1) Supporting social transition.
(2) When puberty starts then at Tannner Stage 2 or 3 puberty blockers are used to stop irreversible physical changes happening, which for transgender adolescents are extremely distressing (one of the peak ages for suicide if untreated)
(3) At 16 (usually) Hormone replacement therapy is started and they begin a puberty of their real gender..
(4) Gender conforming surgery is then available from 18 onwards. Noting that the early use of blockers and HRT means far less is necessary than if this is not done.

At each stage they are assessed and while the vast majority with extreme Gender Dysohoria (GD) go onto transition fully a percentage take on a non-binary identity, neither wholly male or female.
This is similar to those with lower levels of GD, who may decide not to transition fully (though some still do) and again take on some sort on non-binary identity.

The Price of Ignorant Rejection and Prejudice
- If a transgender person is not accepted in their true gender identity they suffer Gender Dysphoria (GD), which is a killer.
- Untreated GD, combined with rejection (common) especially if from parents and families, ignorant prejudice, discrimination and bullying gives trans people the highest rate of suicide of any group in the world.
- However if trans children are supported and can transition early in life the latest scientific peer reviewed studies show their mental health statistics are the same as their cis peers.

- No treatment changes internal gender identity and you can no more change a transgender person's one, than you can a cis person's. You cannot ‘make’ someone transgender, they are or they are not.
-Over the decades everything has been tried to ‘cure’ transgender people: drugs, shock treatments, lobotomies, emotional and physical punishment, aversion ‘therapy…and all the sorry rest, they all failed. The Nazis had a good go in their camps as well.


Why You Should Not have Written This Article
- You are NOT a psychologist or a psychiatrist or therapist who has experience of this area.
- You have NOT read the extensive peer reviewed scientific literature on all this.
- Or even the fact sheets by many organisations, such as WPATH.
- You have NOT communicated with one of the many transgender parents groups which you could have found with a simple Google search.

- You have NOT read the impacts on transgender children when their true gender is not recognised, which includes the highest suicide rate of any group in society.
- Yet when their gender is recognised and supported their mental health statistics are identical to normal cis children.
- You obviously have not met or communicated with any and transgender adults or children.

Yet you think you can comment, insult and ridicule transgender people and their parents?

And that you can feed prejudice based on ignorance, against one of the most misunderstood and attacked groups in society?

Thanks For Nothing B. What next, having a go at ‘perverted’ homosexuals?

And I have to ask , if you are incapable of doing even some basic research on this, what credibility have you about all your other stuff?

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26 2017 19:14 utc | 111

Jackrabbit | Feb 26, 2017 2:50:27 AM | 92
Thanks for that link to Hillary's presentation - it convinces than ever that Hillary will be back for another run in 2020.
What scares me about American liberals today is their absolute belief in everything they do or propose. There was no admission from Hillary that there was any possibility that her policies and campaigning might be wrong and caused the failure of her campaign.

Posted by: Ghostship | Feb 26 2017 19:30 utc | 112

I cannot take anyone seriously that falls for the Muslim girl suicide bomber propaganda. You are beyond naïve. You are stupid.

Posted by: BigTim | Feb 26 2017 19:42 utc | 113

...
- Gender identity is not related to sexuality.
- For the vast majority (99%) the internal gender identity (what you feel you are) and your gender assigned at birth (based on how your genitals look) match.
...
Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26, 2017 2:14:45 PM | 111

And that 99% is the REAL problem; not b, and not "this article" which has provoked a debate to which you have contributed by expressing what you believe to be an informed opinion.

This article made your contribution possible.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 26 2017 19:53 utc | 114

I'll add: I knew at 6 years of age.

And I was very much brought up to be a boy, I could shoot and fish before I went to school. Everything my parents taught and socialised me (as well as society at that time) was about being a boy.

But it was a very hostile and horrible era, so I (like so many others, including gay and lesbian people of the period) hid 'in the closet.

We did it to survive, to not be beaten up or killed or incarcerated and put though abusive 'treatments'. I have friends who were put though electric shock 'therapy' to 'cure' them as kids.

And many of us died through direct and indirect (drugs, alcohol, risky pursuits, etc) suicide, I barely survived until I finally transitioned

Of the kids I grew up with statistically there were other trans kids like myself, also in hiding...and I am probably the only one left alive.

You can't make a cis person transgender, equally you cannot make a transgender person cis. If you are trans nothing changes it ..I tried everything for decades with total failure. I felt the same at 6, 16, 26, 36 and 46... I hid in the closet, pretending and acting 'normal' but with a terrible psychological cost and was very close to death many times.

Untreated gender dysphoria is a killer and there is only one treatment ... transition (though that can be a partial one to a non-binary identity as well as full transition to your true gender). And the younger that can be done the better the outcomes.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26 2017 20:15 utc | 115

The ignorance expressed in this article is profound. Not just ignorance though, because an intelligent person may be ignorant of a topic and come to a more enlightened position upon referring to science, reason or experiential reality. The author of this article is clearly stupid, plain dumb: So unpossessed of any intellect that mounting a discussion where facts might come into play would be a waste of time.

For the rest of you, gender is a by-product of our brain architecture and nothing which is learned. Our brain architecture is formed in the womb by many different processes to that which forms our genitals. Sometimes there are conditions which mean that the genitals and the brain will be different enough that a transgender child will be born. Gender expression is learned from our family and peers, especially in childhood. It is greatly influenced by our gender.

Gender is a core part of our identity and no process can change it. The only way to help a transgender child is to follow their lead and let them live in the gender they know themselves to be. Around the onset of puberty, medical intervention is generally required. All of this is known from peer reviewed science and repeated experience. The most progressive country in the world on this topic is not Iran. There are many which are way ahead of it, including many South Pacific Island cultures, Thailand, Australia, Holland and other European countries.

Posted by: Ricki | Feb 26 2017 20:19 utc | 116

looks like it got linked to the transgender community..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2017 20:39 utc | 117

Hoarsewhisperer: Comparing transgender children to suicide bombers is not a 'discussion' it is outright vilification.

B claims to be an analyst, yet a few Google clicks and a quick read of a few expert sites (such as WPATH) would have given him the correct information.
He has a duty to get his facts correct especially when commenting on a very vulnerable and prejudiced against group in society..

What resulted was a huge amount of transpohobia being expressed in this forum …not ‘discussion’. B gave people permission and fed them factually incorrect information to spout out their hatred and many did.

We trans people get this all the time, this relentless 'mentally ill', 'perverts', sick', 'being forced into it' and all the sorry rest.
This has created a wave of hatred against trans people resulting in discrimination, violence and murder.

US States are queuing up to pass anti-transgender legislation based on the premise that we are either 'perverts', 'mentally ill' or 'mentally ill perverts'.

This is not some religious extremist, conservative or TERF site spewing their expected hatred of trans (and all LGBTI) people, it is a fairly respected geo-political analysis site often linked to by others.

Therefore this causes real damage to trans people by perpetuating the usual negative myths and even worse ...making up one of the worst vilifications I have come across. What does B think he is, the new Milo Yiannopolous?

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26 2017 20:46 utc | 118

Sabine, Trisha, and Lisa, et al

This Post is about EXPLOITATION.

b's observations are VALID. They don't conflict with your own experience. Really, get a grip. Most comments are also valid. There is good parenting and bad parenting. The WaPo Op-Ed was a story of only ONE parent.

Furthermore, if you think corporate media like WaPo or the corrupt Democratic Party CARE, about trans people, you are seriously deluded. The are using emotionally-charged issues like trans children, as a means of attacking Trump and masking their corruption. Look no further than the election of Perez as DNC chair to find what the Democratic Party really cares about: the political gravy train that generates big money for consultants, star politicians, and big donors.

Do you remember Michele Obama's cop-out at the 2014 Democratic Convention? "Change takes time" was her answer to critics of Obama's betrayal of his "Change You Can Believe In" campaign promise.

FYI Trump has NOT said that he hates trans people. He has said that he thinks its an issue for the States. It's a CONSTITUTIONAL question. Obama's decree merely finessed the issue - the Constitutional question was never settled.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 21:01 utc | 119

Lisa @118:

Comparing transgender children to suicide bombers is ... vilification
Except he's not doing that. He's noting similarities in how ideologues use children to achieve their goals.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 21:14 utc | 120

@115 Lisa | Feb 26, 2017 3:15:39 PM

And I was very much brought up to be a boy, I could shoot and fish before I went to school.

I was never taught to shoot and fish, but I could read aloud 160 words a minute and recite 100 poems by heart before I went to school. In the kindergarten, while other kids were playing, I was reading books.
Tell me why do you think you were more special and unique than I was? I never received any special treatment in the school, nor I expected it. Why should I?
I am a male, that is what says on my driver's licence. I go to male washroom not because I 'feel' like a male (whatever that might mean), but because going to female washroom will make myself and the women there very uncomfortable.I attribute that to my upbringing to a member of society that has certain norms to function properly.
BTW, I prefer private washrooms.
Do you know that is your problem? Your problem is that you are dumb and uneducated. You speak only English, you picture is too small and your world view is too narrow and limited.
Here is one hint for you to expand your horizon a bit.
Hungarian language does not have a grammatical gender, it uses the same personal pronoun for anyone. So, if you are upset by discriminatory nature of personal pronouns in English, abandon English, learn Hungarian, move to Hungary and be happy there. Isn't that easier change than all of those changes you undergo yet keeping the English and keep living among stupid muricans?

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 26 2017 21:17 utc | 121

What is sure to put a stop to all of this excessive enthusiasm for changing one's gender identity is to cut insurance coverage, public as well as private, for it. When something is no longer free or not heavily subsidized by the state or private insurance, popularity, interest and enthusiasm for it drops significantly. Healthcare costs are already sky high as it is without adding the huge costs of covering medical and surgical procedures that are clearly not medically necessary. And hormone therapy and radical surgery to change one's gender identity is not only NOT cheap, it's certainly not medically necessary compared to medical procedures that clearly are, like surgery to fix a failing knee or a failing heart, or meds to treating high blood pressure of high blood sugar.

Furthermore, what's wrong with a women who looks and behaves more like a man or a man who looks or behaves more like a women? If a sex change is done on these folks, all you are doing is reducing the diversity and the overall character of the human population. Reducing diversity is never good for any species, including humans. Charles Darwin taught us that. Keep that in mind when you see fewer and fewer masculine women and feminine men walking around and depicted in books and film.

Which reminds me of an old film I watched the other day -- Giant (1956). In this particular film, there's a female character who is obviously overly masculine in the way she lives and conducts herself. Having her in the film adds a lot as to why this film remains one of the all-time greats among American films. If she had a sex change operation and then was depicted as a male in the film, the ability of the film to remain as one of America's all-time greats would have been greatly eroded.

On top of that, hormone therapy is not without its risks. It can be devastating to one's health. It can severely reduce bone and muscle mass. It can lead to heart, liver and kidney failure, not to mention cancer. Needless to say, the more money we, as a society, spend on sex change operations, the less money we'll have to spend on treating heart, liver and kidney failure, as well as cancer.
Healthcare dollars are finite, after all.

Another thing that is fueling this excessive enthusiasm for "anything and everything transgender" is Hollywood and the fashion industry. They are giving transgenders more and more roles in blockbuster films and putting them more and more on the cover of fashion magazines. They are doing this NOT because they have a deep appreciation for the transgender community and their plight for equality, but because they see transganders as nothing more than a novelty item to exploit. So once their novelty wears off and they get done being exploited by film and fashion tycoons, just like all victims of this industry, they'll be thrown away like a used pair of shoes.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 26 2017 21:18 utc | 122

Jackrabbit: B's 'observations' are contradicted by peer reviewed science, it is as simple as that.

All the other points you make are irrelevant to the best protocols for helping transgender children and adolescents.

Good parenting means accepting and supporting your child if they are transgender.

I know parents of trans kids and they went through agonies and most, at first, rejected their children's identity, and it was only the insistence, consistence and persistence of the child themself and the pain they were going through that changed their minds. And then they see the difference when they are accepted and loved. Depressed, morose, withdrawn children then flower into happy kids.

And it is not easy for them and that is made far worse by ignorant (heck downright cruel) attacks on them and their kids.

And many parents don't accept their kids and put them through conversion 'therapy' as happened to poor Leelah Alcorn, or even kick them out of the home, or beat them, up or even kill them.

Trans kids have some of the highest homeless rates around due to parental rejection.

Look here is a good place to start, a blog by the mother of a trans kid: https://gendermom.wordpress.com/about/

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26 2017 21:20 utc | 123

Lisa

1. How does a 7-year old child know that they are TRANS and not just gay? b believes that they can't/don't know. That is reasonable and probably true.

There may be some cases where it is true (like YOU, who claim to have known at 6) but I'd guess that to be unusual.

2. b says that kids naturally play with identity. That is true.

3. b says there are manipulative parents. That is undeniable.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 21:52 utc | 124

@ Lisa of the two spirits: thank you so much. i've witnessed your getting vilified by the alt-rightists at the website of a self-professed "left-winger", and have marveled at the dignity with which you shrug it off to try to educate his commentariat on the many issues you collectively face. one of them came to my home site to rail against the notion of "safe spaces" and rant about "micro-aggressions" (which turned out to be a theme in one dorm on a college campus, in the end).

for a man who allegedly believes so much in states' rights, he should have let this issue go...but he's playing to the fundie Christians of his base, i reckon.

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 26 2017 22:38 utc | 125

“1. How does a 7-year old child know that they are TRANS and not just gay? b believes that they can't/don't know. That is reasonable and probably true.”

They are two totally different things that manifest at different ages. Typically a trans kid will start to feel 'different' between 2-5. In my case my first clear memory is at 6 years old. Being gay or lesbian is a later thing that becomes evident at puberty.

And not all trans kids are same sex attracted (relative to their birth sex). The Tavistok centre in the UK put the trans girls (MTF) as 50% NOT being male attracted and 30% of trans boys (FTM) NOT being female attracted.
The New Zealand school kid survey put it at 45%-55% of trans kids were NOT same sex attracted (relative to birth gender)

That is a classic 'Trans Myth'. In fact trans people show the whole range of sexuality, male attracted, female attracted, bisexual and asexual.

“There may be some cases where it is true (like YOU, who claim to have known at 6) but I'd guess that to be unusual.”
Nope all my trans friends knew they were different at a very early age, due to lack of information they might not have been able to intellectualise it properly, but they sure felt it. The New Zealand survey showed the majority knew before 12 and all by 16.

“2. b says that kids naturally play with identity. That is true.”
Trans kids are different because they are persistent, insistent and consistent. This is not a phase for them, it is always there and never goes away.
For kids with high gender dysphoria (as per tests) they have a near 100% rate of persistence into adolescence and adulthood (if they survive that far that is).

“3. b says there are manipulative parents. That is undeniable.’
The facts show that more parents REJECT their trans kids than accept them. And of those that do accept, rarely do so at first and in fact may require counselling to help them..

You can’t make a kid trans, otherwise you get ‘reverse’ gender dysphoria and the kid will suffer.

This has been proven (tragically) both in the past and happens to this very day for far too many intersex kids. Where their gender is ambiguous at birth but is picked for them, often with major conforming surgery, they are brought up as that gender, then a bit later their own gender identity forms …and it is the opposite to what was picked for them….they then suffer gender dysphoria just like a transgender kid does.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26 2017 22:51 utc | 126

Lisa, Rikki:

The point that B is suggesting by comparing the mother of the transgender child and the father who apparently sent his daughter as a suicide bomber to the Damascus police station is that both parents' decisions were driven by a desire to be "politically correct" in the context of the society in which they live. There is also a possibility that both parents were also driven to make examples of their children and through them, gain some attention or notoriety as it were.

There are real issues present that you missed such as the possibility that the parents were exploiting their children to satisfy their own desires for attention. In the case of Henry, the mother was using the child to criticise the Trump government's decision to change or do away with the law introduced by the previous Obama government that public schools had to allow students to use bathrooms and locker rooms that were "consistent" with the student's gender identity or risk losing federal funding. This was the real issue that caused furore in several states across the US and the WaPo article completely missed (deliberately or otherwise) discussing this topic in yet another crude attempt to discredit the Trump government.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/12/feds-schools-transgender-bathrooms-letter-title-ix/84311104/

Posted by: Jen | Feb 26 2017 23:19 utc | 127

Lisa

Thanks for the info.

Maybe b should've researched trans. However, IMO b is NOT anti-trans and his "librule" point stands.

"Librule" means using identity politics as a device to gain and maintain power. And keeping their base 'hungry' for change is part of the game. It's not surprising that Obama acted on bathrooms only during an election year in which the establishment candidate (Hillary) was in trouble.

Look at labor. They have now (largely) gone over to populist Trump after being constantly played by the Democrats.

Citizen's United means that what really rules both major Parties is M-O-N-E-Y. One could well imagine that as soon as enough immigrants get to vote, their conservatism will be more important to the Democrats than trans rights. Just as Obama-Hillary's Israeli/Saudi/Qatari/etc. connections are more important to them than human rights.

It'll be interesting to see what progressive movement (if any) develops now that that it is clear that corrupt Democratic Leadership refuse to give up power. IMO, the most viable way to return democracy to the people is probably direct democracy via the Pirate Party. This approach can unite principled conservatives as well as progressives.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 23:59 utc | 128

Talk about tunnel vision!! Here is a trans person saying that gay people don't know they're gay until puberty! A blatant and dare I say very rightwing viewpoint. Everyone I know who's gay knew in elementary school.

So take this "expert" with a grain of salt. The very fact that they don't see the exploitation and obvious munchausen-by-proxying going on in broader culture is evidence enough, to discount them. I don't think *anyone*, even b, is saying that transgenders don't exist. Obvious soapbox BS from the new posters.

And that link that was provided(yet another professional mommy blogger w a trans kid of course) for "facts" or something...jeesh, what a pantload. One post actually says that if your kid's video game avatar is the opposite gender, that's a trans red-flag that should be taken seriously - and the blog also claims that no child who has undergone an early transition has ever gone "back" to their real gender! Well DUH. They're fully committed, when their parents decide "what they are", just as a kid raised by white supremacists wouldn't resist that dogma, at least until full adulthood.

Posted by: sejomoje | Feb 27 2017 1:09 utc | 129

Jen: "both parents' decisions were driven by a desire to be "politically correct"

How do you know that? Have you read any parents of transgdner kids sites, communicated with any, met any?

You don't what they have gone through. I know some parents of trans kids and they have gone through (and are going through) agonies and nearly all initially rejected their child being transgender until the child got so bad they had to accept it, or risk losing them.

Untreated, 50% of trans people have tried to commit suicide at least once in their lives (recent Australian survey). The only thing that works is acceptance and transition which for a child is initially only socially, medical treatments don't start until puberty and no irreversible ones until 16.

"mother was using the child to criticise the Trump government'"
Of course they and many other parents were, this affects trans kids very negatively. One school insists they wear coloured bracelets (shades of pink triangles)...

How would you like being banned from the bathroom of your gender?

This is not 'seeking attention' this is criticising a cruel policy based on ignorance and prejudice. As a good parent who cares about and is frightened for her child what would expect her to do?

There have been many cases of trans kids being driven out of schools by prejudice from teachers and administrators.

This is what it is like from http://transparenthood.net/
” I haven’t cried in years, a fact in-and-of-itself that is amazing given all our family has been through. Short ... So you can imagine my surprise when, as I sat at the computer this morning reading my newsfeed, that I broke down in tears. Not just little sniffling tears, but sobs, deep heaving sobs that caused our dog to cower and our two cats to come running, their curiosity piqued by the unfamiliar sound.

And I couldn’t stop.”

”The stark reality of the party‘s platform soon to be in control took my breathe away, as I thought about Sam’s rights and all the children like him that follow… basic human rights the rest of us take for granted, like using public restrooms and locker rooms of their affirmed gender. To be legally protected against bullying and harassment because they are often the victims of verbal and physical abuse. To be free of discrimination in the workplace, when buying a home and seeking medical treatment.”

Or see: https://www.facebook.com/Parents-of-Transgender-Kids-PTK-102798079808117/

Now you can judge that as some sort of 'political' issue, but for the people involved these are life and death issues that transcend any politics.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 1:35 utc | 130

Lisa,

You continue to miss the real issue, ignored by the Washington Post article, which is that the Obama government originally forced upon public schools a directive, in which they had no choice, that they had to make bathrooms available to transgender students (irrespective of whether there actually were any such individuals in most schools' student populations) that were consistent with the students' own choosing, or the schools would lose federal government funding.

This was no small issue for schools, students, teachers and the students' parents who were deprived of the opportunity to discuss the issue and perhaps come up with a solution that served the needs of transgender students that was BETTER than the Obama government's ham-fisted approach. The issue served to rile up communities in areas of a conservative religious bent and served to divide these communities and the rest of the nation in a way that was completely unnecessary. It threw a spotlight onto transgender people in a way many of them might not have welcomed and which ignored their other needs.

But if you want to, go right ahead and ignore this post and every other post that tries to point your attention to an underlying issue. Keep trying to bludgeon everyone with stories you collect from around the Internet and see how far you get trolling this comments forum.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 27 2017 3:51 utc | 131

The immortal Georges Brassens published a song in 1964, when "free love" in the form of pop culture was starting to cross the Atlantic. It is called Le Mouton the Panurge. He sings about a woman that in today's freespeach, fuck's around. He wonders about her motivations, which he determin's are neither love, concupiscence or profit, but the need to conform to fashion.
I think it's exactly what's happening today, pop culture making sexual deviation fashionable In a society where thousands of idiots queue for days to be the first to get the latest Apple gizmo is there any wonder lgbt becomes the model to follow?

"Mais alors, pourquoi cède-t-elle
Sans cœur, sans lucre, sans plaisir
Si l'amour vaut pas la chandelle
Pourquoi le joue-t-elle à loisir
Si quiconque peut, sans ambages
L'aider à dégrafer sa rob'
C'est parc' qu'ell' veut être à la page
Que c'est la mode et qu'elle est snob"

Posted by: estouxim | Feb 27 2017 4:57 utc | 132

Jen: I am not sure what you are arguing for except not allowing trans students to go to the toilet of their true gender?

This is what can happen to trans people and this is a trans adult and it was bad enough, imagine how devastating for a trans kid:
"I wrote to my father, carefully explaining my condition and that I would be transitioning. I got a brief note back informing me that I was mentally ill and proposing to mutilate myself, and as such he would take no part. In his words, ‘don’t call, don’t write’. (And I haven’t.)
I was not allowed to pee at work.
I was refused emergency treatment at a major medical centre in a major western city. I had a urethral blockage and had been unable to urinate in two days. Without so much as examining me, they said they couldn’t help ‘people like me’ and showed me the door, effectively leaving me to die.
I used to frequent a local restaurant, owned by a friend. This friend knew I was transitioning and was, apparently, supportive. Once, well after I was ‘passing’, I used the ladies’ room, and she was waiting for me as I came out. I was asked to leave the restaurant and not return."

So you saying this is all fine? And that was for a trans adult in the not too far past, since then little bit by little bit we trans people got some greater acceptance and some legal protections.

And now the Trump Govt is following the extreme religious right organisation, the FRC, and their 5 point plan to eliminate trans people from society (and supported by about every far right group and religious extremist ones in the US).

And are you are ok with this?

Some here have mentioned all sort of weird political ideas, however the documented fact is that the FRC (and the like) have stated clearly their aim to eliminate all trans people and have advised and lobbied State, local and of course the Federal Govt on how to do so (the so called bathroom laws are just a part of this plan).

One of the reasons the Obama Govt brought in (after much lobbying from LGBTI and human rights orgs) the Federal protection for trans students was the fact of this orchestrated right wing plan. Trans students and their parents were being attacked, in one case a SLPC designated hate group made up a story about a trans student which resulted in them being attacked.
” The Pacific Justice Institute, a California-based anti-LGBT advocacy group, is still relentlessly focused on attacking a transgender teenager in Colorado — months after the group's initial claims that the teenage girl was "harassing" her classmates in the bathroom were proven false.”
” During the nationwide conversation that emerged from the institute's targeting of the teen, identified in responsible media reports as "Jane Doe" because she is a minor, a number of antitrans activists published the girl's name. Doe's mothers reported that their daughter was subsequently harassed and bullied, and that she received death threats, which were so traumatic for the girl that she was reportedly placed on suicide watch. Doe and her family emerged from the harassment”

http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/01/17/anti-lgbt-organization-again-takes-aim-colo-trans-student-jane-doe

And again I ask, are you fine with this?

Or do you believe that human rights extends to all people regardless of their sexuality or gender ..including those who change their gender.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 5:13 utc | 133

Lisa @ 133:

You're even more dense than I thought.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 27 2017 5:25 utc | 134

This thread didn't begin with much, but...hey...isn't it funny how things evolve.

Think we all learned something today. Or at least we had the opportunity to.

Posted by: librul | Feb 27 2017 5:33 utc | 135

@ Lisa | Feb 26, 2017 2:14:45 PM | 111

"Some Facts on the Table From Peer Reviewed Scientific Research and Clinical Practise."

You are from England maybe? This thread is beginning to sound like those ones that argue neverendingly about "Climate Change" or "Vaccinations". I refuse to argue about such things anymore. You seem to put a lot of faith in "therapists" and "doctors" -- Well I do not. It seems like every blog that wanders into anything relating to "science" ends up creating a toxic superfund mess. I have been studying "science" all my life, but I no longer believe in it. "Peer reviewed studies" are now widely known to be mere rituals -- They merely produce nonsense. It is also becoming evident that the "results" of modern experiments cannot, actually, be duplicated. Look at CERNs Large Hadron Collider (LHC); it cost $4.4 billion and what did we get?

You are probably right with most of you information, but I don't trust where it came from. "Science" was just a 19th century fad and it's over. Right now I am having a colossal war with a large group of mathematicians and political "scientists" about election methods. They all started with absurdly wrong premises and have built this giant edifice on top of them with all kinds of ridiculous "systems" based on meaningless "criteria", etc. It's just another big mess.

I think the issue here is that in a country of 330,000,000 people, absolutely anything that can happen will happen, and will get reported (however inaccurately) somewhere.

Maybe I will get back to this blog with news about my war with the election methods cognoscenti if the time is right. My own life has been vastly too interesting, so it's easy for me to see how people who've lived such lives would come to develop strong opinions.

Posted by: blues | Feb 27 2017 5:42 utc | 136

blues: Not being able to stop myself " "Science" was just a 19th century fad "...ok then please throw away your phone, TV, computer, ditch your car, never take any transport except your own feet or a horse or a wooden boat, never take any medicine or have surgery. And please feel free to prove your assertation by disproving the law of gravity anytime you want. You can also try to disprove the existence of electricity as well...just do it on your own.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 6:29 utc | 137

hopehely : I could read before I went I school as well.

” Do you know that is your problem? Your problem is that you are dumb and uneducated.”
I have a degree in Physics (with minors in psychology and computer science) and worked in top level analytics all my life …

” I never received any special treatment in the school, nor I expected it.’
I got lots of ‘special treatment’, like being bullied and attacked for years because I ‘was different’.

” I am a male, that is what says on my driver's licence’
Mine says female.

” living among stupid muricans?:
I live in Australia.


--------------
Cynthia: “of covering medical and surgical procedures that are clearly not medically necessary. And hormone therapy and radical surgery to change one's gender identity is not only NOT cheap, it's certainly not medically necessary”
Untreated extreme gender dysphoria has a 50% death rate before 30. That puts it up with many extreme medical conditions.
There are many, using your criteria, that would fall well behind in the priority list compared to gender conforming surgery.

”Furthermore, what's wrong with a women who looks and behaves more like a man or a man who looks or behaves more like a women?”
That is a Trans Myth, that it is just about being gender non conforming (GNC) in behaviour and looks. Trust me it is far, far more than that and is backed by all the peer reviewed research.
Your very identity is different, your body feels wrong all the time, you look wrong to yourself.


HRT has proven to (a) be safe and (b) life saving.
In fact it is the single most effective medical treatment in reducing gender dysphoria and cutting transgender suicide rates.
Not all trans people want, can afford or can have gender confirming surgery (such as vaginaplasty, breast removal, facial surgery, prosthetic penis, etc).

Plus there is no such word as ‘transgenders’ there are ‘transgender people’, or 'transgender women’ or ‘transgender men’, using ‘trans’ as a shorthand is acceptable.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 6:33 utc | 138

Winner: Documentary Short Subject
Joanna Natasegara and Orlando von Einsiedel for "The White Helmets"

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 27 2017 6:42 utc | 139

sejomoje: This is a misconception. Typical schoolyard prejudice is that gender non conforming (GNC) children are 'all gay or lesbian', that 'effeminate' boys are gay, and 'masculine' girls lesbians.

Nope, a fair number of GNC kids do grow up gay or lesbian or bisexual, but a significant number don't. Equally many very 'straight' appearing kids (gender conforming) grow up gay/lesbian or bisexual. That schoolyard bully all macho and everything can be just as likely to be gay as the quiet artistic 'feminine' boy (who could easily turn out rampantly heterosexual).

Though there may be suspicions, or even hints along the way it is not until sexuality actually appears at puberty that a person is sure themselves and they are the only one that matters in this, and that may take some exploration and experimentation by them to work themselves fully out. Are they exclusively gay, or are they bisexual for example. There is a big difference between the two.

Most do work it out by mid to late adolescence these days, back in the bad old past it was much harder and many tragically didn't get the chance until they were much older.

This is in contrast to trans kids, who often show clear symptoms from an early age, long before puberty.

There is nothing new about this, just we see people repeating the same tired old schoolyard prejudices. And anyway what is GNC behaviour? That is in the eyes of the beholder, GNC to you would not be for me.
Is a quiet shy, intellectual, maybe musically/artistically gifted boy who hates contact sports GNC? Is the very bright and athletic girl who wants to be scientist GNC?

This brings us to another Trans Myth, ‘that all trans kids are super stereotypical acting and appearing in their true gender’. Nope.

Trans kids show the same range of gender behaviours for their true gender as their equivalent cis peers. Some trans girls (MTF) are super ‘girly’, others not so, some trans boys (FTM) are very ‘masculine’, some not so. Just as many cis girls are not super ‘girly’ and many cis boys not super ‘macho’.
I myself was considered quite feminine as a kid despite me trying to hide what I felt (which I only found out many, many years later from relatives) hence I was a target for bullies, but I wasn’t into dolls and loved science fiction. I didn’t think of myself ‘as ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ when young, I was just me (when older I started to police my public behaviour to 'fit in') but I just knew I had the wrong ‘bits’, preferred playing with girls (but also had some male friends) and would have been much more relaxed and happier as a girl, though I would have still been a 'nerd'.
Nowadays, after transitioning well I am still a nerd and though I like to glam up to go out, I blob around in jeans and daggy tops, just like 95% of cis women.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 6:46 utc | 140


IS forcing children, disabled into suicide cars: US general
Islamic State jihadists are forcing children and disabled people into explosives-laden trucks and making them drive at Iraqi security forces in Mosul, a general from the US-led coalition has said.
The barbaric tactic, coupled with other increasingly desperate battlefield measures, is a sign the IS group knows defeat is inevitable, officials say.
The jihadists have used exploding trucks, known in military circles as VBIEDs -- vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices -- and pronounced "Vee-Bids," to devastating effect in numerous engagements during the Mosul offensive and elsewhere in Iraq.
Speaking to AFP and other reporters in Baghdad this week, US Air Force Brigadier General Matt Isler said the IS group had adopted coercive new techniques in its use of suicide car bombs because the jihadists appear to be running out of willing drivers.
"We saw people being led to a VBIED, being put in (it) and being chained in the VBIED," he said.
"We've seen children put in VBIEDs as drivers, people that aren't able to walk... I don't know if they signed up for this service."
The coalition has often seen VBIEDs depart on missions, only for their drivers to veer off course and attempt to hide behind structures.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 27 2017 7:28 utc | 141

@138 Lisa | Feb 27, 2017 1:33:06 AM

I got lots of ‘special treatment’, like being bullied and attacked for years because I ‘was different’.

Well I was bullied too, until started training martial arts. Bullying disappeared miraculously then. Being strong and being able to hit hard is pretty handy. Pity you gave up on that gift from Mother Nature - I assume you keep your testosterone level at female level now.
Your very identity is different, your body feels wrong all the time, you look wrong to yourself.

Did ever cross your mind that perhaps everything was right with your body, but your mind was not quite right? Wouldn't be easier modify your mind to harmonize with your body, the mind is more flexible, more malleable, more elastic, plastic and fantastic.


Posted by: hopehely | Feb 27 2017 7:37 utc | 142

james : Look we trans people get fed up with cis people talking ABOUT us, not WITH us. We are more than happy to discuss and explain things as I have tried to do here in an understandable manner.

We know it is difficult for cis people to grasp it, heck it is difficult for us to do that in a world of prejudice and misinformation and downright lies, with people out there that hate our very existence and have dedicated themselves to eliminating us.

But what really gets out backs up is when cis people, basing their opinions on (basically) 19th century religious views or propaganda from right wing religious extremists. think they have a right to question our very existence and make decisions that affect us negatively, because it makes them fell 'better', instead of taking just a little amount of time to research things and talk to us.

We are nice people and when people take the time to get to know us they usually like us. We are just people, who got a bit of bad luck but fortunately now can be fixed.

And when you see a trans kid, affirmed and accepted in their true gender, happy and full of life after being morose, depressed and withdrawn then I defy anyone to say they should not have that chance to be themselves and be happy, instead of being forced into something and someone they are not because (to quote Gore Vidal) of some 'bronze age, middle eastern, tribal sky god' beliefs.

My hope is that one day being transgender will be seen as trivial as having a cleft pallet, bit of bad bad luck but thanks to an enlightened society and medical science is easily fixable so the kids can go on have have a good life. And that there is no need for people (like myself in the past) to hide away in that dim, dark, lonely and miserable 'closet'.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 7:39 utc | 143

Hopehely: “Well I was bullied too, until started training martial arts. Bullying disappeared miraculously then. Being strong and being able to hit hard is pretty handy. Pity you gave up on that gift from Mother Nature - I assume you keep your testosterone level at female level now.”

Well I did too, went ‘into the closet” as a teenager, determined to ’be a man’. For sheer survival I trained myself, built myself up…and put some bullies into hospital.
And it shouldn’t have been necessary one little bit. When teachers take the side of the bullies then there is something really wrong with society.

”Did ever cross your mind that perhaps everything was right with your body, but your mind was not quite right? Wouldn't be easier modify your mind to harmonize with your body, the mind is more flexible, more malleable, more elastic, plastic and fantastic.”

I tried that for 45 years and failed totally. Tried everything, self conditioning, hyper ‘masculinity’ extreme sports and activities, top level analytic jobs…many relationships.
Failed totally.
At 45 years of age I was still policing my body movements, even how I crossed my legs, so no one would suspect what this seemingly hyper masculine, ‘alpha’ male was really like. Pathetic, but that is how much I was determined to be 'straight and cis'.

Eventually I couldn’t do it any longer, it took too much mental and emotional energy to maintain my ’act’. And I ran out of steam and had to face myself as I really was and always had been from a kid. Accept myself or die. And I so wish I had done it far earlier. I lost a lot of good years.

There are lots of things you can change about yourself…but sexual orientation and internal gender identity are not on that list. They are totally hard wired.

So many of we older transitioners tried all that, trans men that go through a 'hyper feminine' stage, trans women who go though a 'hyper masculine' stage. Desperately trying to 'cure' ourselves, full of self loathing and fear, lonely, desperately trying to be cis and 'fit in'. Until you can't do it any longer.

Far, far better to be your true self from the beginning and transition young.

PS: Anyway fighting is about speed, the most dangerous man I have ever met (and I grew up in Glasgow in the 70s) was an ex SAS sergeant…all 5’8” and as thin as a rake….. and one of the nicest guys I have ever met, except that he was tragically damaged by his experiences. I hope he found the peace of mind and good life he so deserved.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27 2017 8:37 utc | 144

I must say that I despise the cleft palate analogy. Cleft palate is a disfiguring and dysfunctional defect in all who have it, regardless of any sort of identity.

Let's just call pre-adult reassignment surgeries and hormonal treatments what they are: MULITATIONS.

You do realize what our society is becoming now, don't you? It's the secular version of Islam. They have FGM, and we have transgender reassignment surgery and permanently disfiguring hormonal treatments.

Leave the children alone. I thought we'd already learned about this the hard way years ago when doctors used to try and have families raise genetic boys as girls when their genitalia were ambiguous. No one remembers that documentary about some guy whose name I believe was David. He even found a wife eventually, but still committed suicide.

What you adults do to yourselves is your own business, though, as long as you don't make it mine.

Posted by: Cahaba | Feb 27 2017 11:43 utc | 145

@ Lisa | Feb 27, 2017 1:29:03 AM | 137

You said:
/~~~~~~~~~~
blues: Not being able to stop myself " "Science" was just a 19th century fad "...ok then please throw away your phone, TV, computer, ditch your car, never take any transport except your own feet or a horse or a wooden boat, never take any medicine or have surgery. And please feel free to prove your assertation by disproving the law of gravity anytime you want. You can also try to disprove the existence of electricity as well...just do it on your own.
\~~~~~~~~~~

Well I do believe in the law of gravity and the existence of electricity. Really most of the technology "we" have these days comes from engineering refinements from the science of the 19th century. We can't do much of it anymore. (Maybe it's the fluoride in the water?) I don't have to do the "ditch your car, never take any transport except your own feet or a horse or a wooden boat, never take any medicine or have surgery" since I live in a tiny shack slightly north of the Deerfield River. Sex and gender don't mean too much to me either since I only (briefly) meet up with another human being about once a month. I am a mountain man. Come spring when the ground thaws I will probably dig a hole and bury this computer.

Posted by: blues | Feb 27 2017 12:28 utc | 146

Lisa: very interesting, you seem to have a lot of statistics, rates, etc. Yet I wonder - except for just this time of the year, when hordes of men showed up in the streets in female dresses, and this in a very religious, catholic conservative south-european country, but in carnaval all is allowed, I never even heard of trans people untill 45 or 46 years ago, when a friend introduced me to someone that had been married, fathered 2 kids, and now had a portentous pair of breasts. I think he also had new genitals but I'm not certain about that. That was something we never heard of or read about before.

I don't recall anyone being bullied on account of "being different" and there were over 1500 boys in the boys only school I went to in my teens. There were a few openly gay boys, we even had a couple of gay teachers. No trans people though.

That started spreading in the late seventies when a lot of mostly brazilian trans prostitutes took over some sidewalks in diferent capitals, for instance Pigalle in Paris, it's most famous traditional nightlife quarter, home to the Moulin-Rouge of Toulouse-Lautrec fame.

In that way trans people became conspicuous in many european big cities. They must have had clients for their number increased constantly. Checking the online version of the biggest circulation paper in my country, the modern version of the sidewalks of old, I find today they represent about 8% of the number of women. Gay prostitutes are less then 1%.

Also conspicuous is pop culture and the media. The first outlets where I found out about the plight of the trans person (let's keep it pc) were self-described "underground" magazines even if they were sold in exactly the same kiosks as all the other press produts. Interestingly one of them, of which I then wouldn't miss an issue, transformed under the same ownership from an herald of hippie culture -early 70's- to the herald of yuppie culture 10 years later. No wonder we are where we are.

Another glorification of the lgbt was to be found in comics, in music, yes take a walk on the wild side, and later the catwalk where women became little boys and men more and more dress in skirts. And evidently, hollywood.
From there to the msm was a baby's leap. Nowaday's it's everywhere, it has become an european value.

Take Sweden, for instance. Up to the early 80's I never heard anyone in the circles I frequented refer to gay men but in a derogatory manner nowadays these same people speak of the ever increasing gay population as something positive.

And then there is porn which has become ubiquitous thanks to the internet.

So, from the time of my youth when the concept of trapped in the wrong body was unknown and homosexuality tolerated even if condemned, as it had been through the ages, to today, what has changed?

On a physicall level the exposition to an ever increasing range of chemicals whose effects and of their interactions have not been properly researched but that are known to impact the regulatory systems of our organism could be a factor. Autism is known to have increased exponentially and so have immune system disorders.

But, above all, what has changed is the cultural environment. Cultural change is not random, it is driven, and pop culture is certainly not an emanation of the aspirations of societies but has been for a long time a product that is designed and marketed and thanks to mass comunication reaches everywhere. That is the greatest strenght of capitalism, it manages to get you to pay to be brainwashed.

I suspect that the main reason for the colapse of the USSR was precisely their incapacity to compete on the pop cultural level. they were unable to wrap their brainwashing in an actractive enough package

There is no doubt that the left in the developed west has been transformed, placing gender issues as the main arena while disregarding their traditional role, the defense of the worker class. The left does not control the means that produce pop culture. It did so when they were state means, and for awhile after the war it managed to produce nacional pop cultures but those were surrendered and the doors were opened wide to the fabricated pop culture pouring from across the Atlantic. Gender issues were relentlessly promoted within it. Same with drugs. The discourse changed as this pop culture was attacked by the traditional right. The left took the bait and shifted the discussion from the morality of income distribution to the morality of behavior and self destroyed. Gender issues, the drugs debate, human rights in the context of the now universal western pop culture are not issues, they are instruments of brainwashing.

By the way Wahabits and Zionists are fully aware of the power and mechanisms of brainwashing, they sit on the same boards where these things are decided, that's their commonality.

And that in my view is what b was comparing, brainwashed creatures that harm their children, a perversion of nature, on acount of their brainwashing and an instrument of brainwashing that in a basic utilitarian way promotes said perversion.

And that's what you, despite all your top level analytical skills were unable to grasp, maybe because of your own subjection to brainwashing that prevents you from understanding the difference between utilitarianism - it works, we do it, consequences, what consequences? - and science which is what blues was talking about rightly pointing that its method is no longer applied.

Posted by: estouxim | Feb 27 2017 13:48 utc | 147

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 26, 2017 3:46:19 PM | 118 et al

What a load of over-sentimentalised crap.
You should learn the difference between education and vilification, and decide which you prefer, before riding both horses into a debate on a topic you enjoy getting steamed up about.

This is a below the belt issue and the following remark from your #111...

Thanks For Nothing B. What next, having a go at ‘perverted’ homosexuals?
And I have to ask , if you are incapable of doing even some basic research on this, what credibility have you about all your other stuff?

... was below the belt and way out of line.
Taking your miserable self as the trans exemplar, all you've done here is make a persuasive case that trans people are angry and bitter. And in my observation of hi-profile trans people expressing themselves in the Media, angry and bitter is par for the course.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2017 13:49 utc | 148

...
I live in Australia.
...
Posted by: Lisa | Feb 27, 2017 1:33:06 AM | 138

I thought so. Magda Zubanski, I presume?
The cranky MO certainly fits like a glove.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2017 14:20 utc | 149

Szubanski

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2017 14:46 utc | 150

Lisa,

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

1. You say: "... a fair number of GNC kids do grow up gay or lesbian or bisexual, but a significant number don't". The commonsense view is that its impossible for a child to know that he/she is gay or trans and this statement essentially admits that.

2. You ignore Democratic Party failings and attack Trump instead.

>> Obama could've addressed this in 2008 but he waited Hillary's electoral troubles forced his hand.

>> Your anger is misplaced. Hillary lost because of Democratic Party corruption. The recent election of Perez as DNC Chair shows that they have learned nothing.

3. Your attack on Jen ("are you OK with this") was unwarranted and used emotional stories unrelated to the issue we are discussing. The stories of bias from an adult and a teenager aren't very relevant to whether a young person can know that they are trans.

Jen made important points including that Obama's decree was almost designed to cause push-back.

blues point about not trusting science is well taken. We've seen how science can be politicized.

And your personal history makes me think that the belief of being 'trans' at an early age, and possibly (to some extent) 'trans' at all, could well be a reaction to a society that is hostile to gays.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

I think that most people today believe that people should be free to be who they are. And the necessary accommodations for a few young trans people are not that onerous when done in a sensible way.

Unfortunately, bathrooms have become a political football in the Culture Wars. And the Democratic Party shares a big portion of the blame. They betray ordinary, working people (under Obama, we have reached gilded-age wealth inequality) while championing 'wedge issues' that affect very few.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2017 14:56 utc | 151

The truth is, it usually doesn't matter if parents teach their kids odd things, since 90% of other parents will teach their own kids equally odd things.

If I had to go back to visit myself when I was very young I would definitely teach myself one paramount thing: Nearly everything other people teach you, whether they are parents, teachers, physicians, therapists, or whatever, is always likely to be U.S.D.A. Grade A bullshit. Don't ever believe anyone no matter how authoritative the appear to be.

Any child that doesn't learn that early on is going to suffer miserably (unless they are surrounded and protected by wealth).

Posted by: blues | Feb 27 2017 15:07 utc | 152

...is always likely to be U.S.D.A. Grade A bullshit. Don't ever believe anyone no matter how authoritative the appear to be.
Any child that doesn't learn that early on is going to suffer...
Posted by: blues | Feb 27, 2017 10:07:30 AM | 152

Yeah, and not just USDA either. One of the Low Hilights of my early life was after a 'science' teacher in year 7, who had just informed the class that "Gravity is caused by the Earth spinning" reacted Deep Purplishly when I dared to ask "Excuse me Miss, are you sure that's right? If you roll a wet tennis ball along the ground, the water spins off."
"Shut up, HW, I'm the teacher here!!"

Later in life, other teachers have unanimously agreed with my 'science' teacher's stance which hasn't done my respect for teachers any good...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2017 15:46 utc | 153

Just to add a comment at the end of a dead-ish thread. The issue of toilets is only a sensitive question in Protestant-dominated countries like US and UK. In Catholic France it's not an issue. The men's toilets in our institute are full of women. Who cares?

I quite agree that 7-year old kids should be left to develop their own identity without pressure. If a boy wants to go to school dressed as a girl, let him do so. If a girl wants to go to school dressed as a boy, there is no protest anyway. It may be a phase; it may not.

I didn't get the impression from the WaPo article that the mother was pressuring the kid, as suggested by many above. Simply that she was ready to fight for the kid's rights.

There is a problem that trans people don't like to admit (I've known a

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 27 2017 20:24 utc | 154

*(I've known a lot) and that is, that in order to get the transition medical treatment, you have to convince the doctor that you've been like that since birth. So they create the necessary history. or not even for the medics; it's a necessary part of your story (lot of YouTubes like that).

From my point of view, if a genetic male wants to live the life of a female, or a genetic female the life of a male (increasing numbers), so what? It's interesting that there's been a move away from genital surgery among trans women (which no-one sees), towards facial surgery, to reduce the proportions of the face (which does affect daily life). It's what shows that counts.

Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 27 2017 20:55 utc | 155

Taking Laguerre lead, can anyone explain to me what regulations exist on toilets for the wheel-chaired in the US? That's mandatory in the EU now in public buildings, malls etc. Anyone can use them.
Isn't this toilet debate a tempest in a glass of water?

Posted by: estouxim | Feb 27 2017 21:48 utc | 156

Laguerre @ 154:

The issue with the toilets in the US was that the Federal government order to public schools to allow transgender students to use toilets on the basis of what they (the students) said was their appropriate gender, was not the transgender matter itself, but the fact that the schools had no say at all. They were not given a choice to decide whether the Federal government directive was appropriate for them or for the student population (transgender and non-transgender), or to put up an alternative solution that everyone could agree on. In addition, if the schools did not do as directed, they stood to lose Federal government funding.

What the Obama government did was force a one-size-fits-all approach guaranteed to cause widespread anger and division, almost as if the administration had planned it that way.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 28 2017 0:29 utc | 157

With the population bomb ticking I don't care what you tell your children if it lessens the chance they'll reproduce. Homosexuality would be a good evolutionary method of population control.

Posted by: Jason | Feb 28 2017 9:26 utc | 158

As someone who experienced the dislocation of knowing my identity at an early age and her and not having it juxtapose with a traditional understandings of gender identity, I think I can speak for all trans people and say that your position on this while understandable, is entirely off the mark. It would be better if you just admitted that you don't understand. It would be better if you approached the topic with an open mind. It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many people who feel that they have a right to an opinion without the responsibility to investigate circumstances in a meaningful way in order to assemble facts. It is true that Iran is the best country in that part of the world to be trans. The trans people there owe a great debt of gratitude to ayatollah Komehni.

This is all about the prevention of suffering. For most of us that suffering went on and on and on until we had the financial resources or flat out desperation leading us to solve it ourselves. I think this mother deserves a lot of credit for trusting her own child.

Posted by: Theobserver | Feb 28 2017 19:07 utc | 159

Jackrabbit "And your personal history makes me think that the belief of being 'trans' at an early age, and possibly (to some extent) 'trans' at all, could well be a reaction to a society that is hostile to gays."

Trans Myth again...that all trans girls are 'really' gay men and trans boys 'butch lesbians'.
You could also argue that some gay men and butch lesbians are really trans.... and in fact some go through a stage of living as such before transitioning. just as some have a stage as hetersexual men and women.

At least 50% of transgender people are not exclusively same sex attracted (relative to their birth sex)

In fact I am female attracted, which confused me even more as a kid when I hit puberty. In many ways my life would have been easier (or at least less confusing) if I had been male attracted.

I know trans men that are male attracted and others that are female attracted , trans women that are male attracted and others female attracted and of course those in both groups that are asexual or bisexual.

And in fact this is another Trans Myth, social pressure is actually far greater against transitioning. If you are living as a gay man (after a strongly trans childhood) you will get a lot of pressure not to transitions, ditto a butch lesbian.
Surveys show far greater social acceptance of gay men and lesbians than trans people.

So in actuality, there there are trans people closeted away in the gay and lesbian worlds to escape transphobia, not gay/lesbian people being trans to escape homophobia

And anyone that tried that would quickly suffer gender dysphoria, which is caused when you are forced to to be the gender you are not.
If you are not transgender, then trying to be the opposite gender will make you suffer.
One classic example is the cis woman author, who as research for her book, lived as a man for a year and cracked up....

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 28 2017 21:24 utc | 160

Laguerre: That is less of an issue now with the latest protocols from WPATH.

Back in the past you be allowed HRT and surgery then (for a trans women) you had to meet ridiculous standards that 95% of cis women would not meet: young, attractive., stereotypically 'feminine', only male attracted and so on (one sexologist stated they only approved those they wanted to have sex with).

Nowadays that is not the case and in fact sexual orientation is not even a criteria or even asked about, as it is irrelevant.

But the vast majority of trans people show clear signs before puberty and had clear feelings. Many (like myself) hid that because their parents (and others) were disapproving, some got hauled of for 'reparative therapy'....

However (this is far less an issue now of course) it is one thing to feel something, another to intellectualise it and understand it.

I did not want my penis and did want (and kept waiting for it to grow in) a vagina. But I didn't understand it, thought I was the only person in the whole world that thought that way, had no one to talk to about it. It took a long time to understand what my very strong feelings meant, but I very quickly picked up (as a shy and sensitive kid) that signs of being 'feminine' were frowned on.
That was me of course, others come to understanding far quicker.

In fact in my case being female attracted made it even harder to understand....

But thanks to lots of research we now understand it and what to do about it. And information is far more readily accessible for parents and the kids themselves.

The incredible relief of knowing what all these feelings mean, that you are not alone, or a 'weirdo', or a 'pervert'. It is almost impossible to express how much they matter.

The loneliness is maybe the worst, you are in hiding in 'the closet', keeping a big part of you secret from everyone, perhaps with self loathing added, definitely fear..... you can never get too close to anyone in case they find out.
Then you find out that you are just a part of normal human variation, that there are many like you and always have been. You are not alone and you now have hope...where before you only saw darkness.

One of the saddest things I ever read was from someone when in 'the closet' wanted to die but couldn’t bring themselves to do it. So they joined the army hoping they would be killed. Fortunately they survived, came to terms with themselves and later transitioned. But it just shows you the depths of despair some of us can go through.


So accepting and supporting trans kids is the best option and a life saver, over and above just basic humanity.

The question that has to be asked of all anti-trans kid people is: "Do you want people to grow up and be happy as themselves, or does your ignorance and prejudice matter so much to you that you enjoy the suffering of others to make you feel better'?

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 28 2017 22:30 utc | 161

And then there are the incredible double standards about intersex kids.

They are allowed to be chopped up with extensive surgery (including sterlisation) as babies to make them ‘normal looking’. Even things like trimming their clitorises, because they ‘look too big’ (who cares about their future sexual functioning)

They are not allowed to grow up to see how their gender identity forms. Or to become older and be consulted about their medical and surgical options.

Just the parents and doctors choose for them., often with nothing more scientific than a ruler. And that happens every day in hospitals all over the world.

Yet people jump up and down about trans kids where:
-They have to be evaluated by experts.
-No permanent physical changes start until about 16 and only after further evaluation and the person being informed of all the risks and issues.
-Where these days, attempts are made, if desired, to preserve their fertility (such as freezing sperm or eggs) something intersex kids never get a chance at.

We trans people call these astonishing (and cruel) double standards as ‘cis-normativity’ where making someone cis needs no input from the person involved whatsoever, while those who want to change gender have to go through hoops to prove it.

Worse, all those who jump up and down about trans kids never think about or mention or care about intersex ones at all, they are ‘erased’.

Posted by: Lisa | Feb 28 2017 22:56 utc | 162

Lisa @160

Thank you for clarifying.

However, you have failed to address issues that are more important/relevant to this thread (as I am among the majority here that believe that people should be free to live life as they chose):

>> Sejomojie says that his gay friends knew they were gay in elementary school so how a child KNOWS that they are trans instead of gay is very questionable.

>> blues has raised the issue of politicized science;

>> Jen and I have written of how trans issues have been used for political benefit.

>> Laguerre tells us that to get approval for a trans operation, someone has to convince their doctor that they were trans from birth. That creates a strong incentive toward overstating the "known since birth".

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2017 23:00 utc | 163

Glad to see that you responded to Laguerre.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2017 23:03 utc | 164

Jackrabbit:
"Laguerre tells us that to get approval for a trans operation, someone has to convince their doctor that they were trans from birth. That creates a strong incentive toward overstating the "known since birth"."

Nope, not true at all. Not under WPATH Standards of Care 7.

The fact is the vast majority do so, but it is not a requirement. Some people take longer to work themselves out, for example trans men do tend to come out as trans at a bit older an age than trans girls and there are many complex reasons for that. There are those from very transphobic families who have been pushed into deep denial and can take time to work out their feelings and separate them from their internal prejudices (that also happens to gay and lesbian people too by the way).

For some puberty is the big trigger and that low level, almost unnoticeable gender dysphoria may have been bubbling away, but it is the huge hormonal changes that bring it to the fore.

The numbers show the majority have had feelings of some kind as a kid pre puberty, from moderate to extreme. But not all.
But nearly all have had by mid to late puberty.
Being 'late onset' transgender is another of those Trans Myths, no more true than 'late onset' homosexuality or bisexuality, it has always been there.

There are some, tragically, that have been misdiagnosed as having all sorts of conditions and then it takes time to find out the cause of it all is their gender dysphoria (and there lies some tragic stories, like a friend of mine).

Again that all comes from the old 'gatekeeper' model where a trans woman had to be more 'feminine' than 95% of cis women to get through. But that is all gone now.

What matters these days is the level of Gender Dysophoria NOW and working out how to deal with it. Now that can be some sort of non-binary identity, or full or partial transitioning. Or a staged approach or whatever. One misconception is that WPATH pushes 'there is one solution for all', not true at all. In fact the guidelines are clear that alternatives should be discussed, and if wanted, explored and supported.

I have friends whose personal solutions are not full transitioning like myself, one for example is bi-gender in that they live part of their life as a male and part as a female. That works for them.
It depends on how strong the gender dysphoria is, not everyone has the high levels like I did, some are more moderate. Some with moderate GD will still transition, while others will work out something else...however that 'something else' is not being 100% cis.

These are all tired old Trans Myths that keep getting put out again and again and again. Things are very different now.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 1 2017 6:01 utc | 165

If we look at the New Zealand survey into high schoolkids we see:

How old when wondered about being transgender
 <8 years 25 (27.3)
 8–11 years 16 (17.9)
 ≥12 years 50 (54.8)

Note the maximum age possible was 18. So 100% reported it by then.

The only thing about that is it combines both trans girls and trans boys and we know that trans boys typically report at an older age than trans girls. Backtracking a bit and looking at other numbers we get around 50% of trans girls knowing (or strongly questioning at least) by 8 and maybe 70% by 11. The rest are usually by mid puberty (13-16).

That corresponds with 'straw polls' I have done with non-binary and trans women friends (of all stages of transition) where we have no need to lie amongst ourselves. We all report some things, from my penis hate and desire for a vagina at 6 and 7, to a friend who cross dressed at 8 (and got caught and got conversion therapy which put them in the closet for 20 years), to less noticeable things like much preferring to play with girls...and so on. They all reported something before puberty, some younger than others, some a bit older. They all felt 'different'.

As I said the reasons why trans boys tend come out older are complex and not fully understood yet, it seem the impacts of puberty and what I call the 'gender hammer' coming down on them (where they had more freedom as young kids to be GNC compared to trans girls) causes their gender dysphoria to spike massively at early puberty (Tanner stages 2 or 3 usually).
This can catch parents unawares, despite the fact that their child might have been a ‘tomboy;’ for years …but that is often socially acceptable in pre pubescent girls (see Enid Blyton’s Famous Five books written in the 1940s, 50s and 60s for example), where ‘femininity’ is not allowed for boys.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 1 2017 6:45 utc | 166

Lisa @:

Nope, not true at all. Not under WPATH Standards of Care 7.
A quick search shows that version 7 was published in 2011. So it was true from 1979 - 2011. To what extent might the previous requirement to express KNOWing from birth have affected research that you cited above (research that you claim demonstrated that young people KNEW they were trans at a very young age)?

And, in any case, even if trans people do KNOW from an early age, there is still a real possibility of false positives: kids that think they know (at 7), but aren't really trans. Plenty of people convince themselves that they are one thing or another but turn out to be something else.

Also looking forward to your reply regarding the other outstanding issues that have been raised:

>> Sejomojie says that his gay friends knew they were gay in elementary school so how a child KNOWS that they are trans instead of gay is very questionable.

>> blues has raised the issue of politicized science;

>> Jen and I have written of how trans issues have been used for political benefit.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 1 2017 6:47 utc | 167

Jackrabbit: Oh it is only in very recent times that trans people stopped getting treated like crap.

The protocols are designed to stop 'false positives', hence how cautious they are. In fact they are now, with more recent research becoming available, are being criticised for being too conservative since the 'regret' rate is so small (l% to 3%).

The fear by cis people that some people might be forced into being 'trans' is ridiculous and not backed by the facts, compared to the case of the horrible treatment of intersex people who really have a high 'false positive rate' that no one cares about.

Again it is ‘cis-normative’ bias.

If you talk to LGBT kids they know their gender and sexuality clearly, they have no confusion it is only the adults that have that. Check out the Australian Minus 18 group for LGBTI kids. LGB kids know they are cis, trans kids know they are trans...they are not 'confused' in the slightest.

These are those Trans Myths that go around and around.

The only politicised science was by the homophobic and transphobic ones in the past, who invented gay conversion therapy and later called it trans conversion therapy. Centered around the Toronto school of thought (University of Toronto, CAMH and so on) and Catholic extremist Paul McHugh they dedicated their lives to eliminating all LGBTI people. People like Catholic extremist Paul McHugh, Catholic Ray Blanchard, Kenneth (king of gay/trans conversion therapy) Zucker, trans hater Michael Bailey and their hangers on.

Michael Bailey author of the trans hate book The Man Who Would be Queen actually stated:
"WPATH has become an egregious organization that makes the world worse in the name of making the world better for the transgendered. "

Think that through or a bit and work out what he means...

It took a lot of work by dedicated researchers (like Kelley Winters) to break the grip these homophobic and transphobic people had and replace it by real, provable science.

And Zucker...he is always contradicting himself, in his papers he shows one thing, then in his public statements, contradicting his own published work, he states anti-trans things...what is it Kenneth?

I've actually gone though in detail all their published papers... The classic is Ray Blanchard, I have personally tore apart one of his key papers for being total unscientific, full of errors including circular logic...

It was the era, Green, Rekers (of later homophobic NARTH fame ....and his rent boy) Blanchard, Bailey, Zucker. All dedicated to making people 'cis and straight' and eliminating LGBTI people from society. To this day Ray Blanchard argues that gays and lesbians are mentally ill...in fact he goes further in that he states ALL non procreative sex (that is anything but PiV sex) is a sexual paraphilia....yep if you masturbate you are a mentally ill pervert according to him.

Nowadays they tweet and support TERF, religious right and extremist anti LGBTI sites.

They are extensively quoted by LGBTI hate groups like the FRC...which they never contradict by the way, despite being asked to.
Examples:
The National Catholic Bioethics Center 2009
The Psychopathology of “Sex Reassignment” Surgery
Position: “If SRS is neither medically nor ethically justifiable for adults, then starting hormone treatments on adolescents with GID in order to suppress puberty, with the promise of later proceeding to SRS, is even less so.”

Quotes/references: Blanchard: 11 times, Zucker: 19 times, Bailey: 10 times,
Janice Raymond 6 times, Lawrence: 21 times. McHugh 13 times. Autogynephilia: 32 times.

FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL (FRC) 2015
Understanding and Responding to the Transgender Movement
Position: "We believe that governments should not recognize any change in sexual identity from that identified at birth (with the exception of the rare cases in which a biological disorder of sexual development can be diagnosed), and the law should not force any private entities to grant such recognition."

Quotes/references:" Ray Blanchard is mentioned and referenced twice, Zucker 10 times, Bailey twice, Dreger twice, Lawrence 3 times,
Janice Raymond 7 times, McHugh 11 times. Autogynephilia 6 times.


That's what we had to put up with for decades. But now all disproven and debunked but they keep coming up again and again like zombies that never lie down. LGBTI haters to the very bitter end.


In many ways Zucker was the worst, he'd do a resonable paper and his research showed one thing. Then he'd make a public statement that was the exact opposite. He prove himself how young gender identity formed...yet still kept doing gay/trans conversion therapy on kids. And never forget the majority (70%) of kids he 'treated' were not trans ...he was trying to stop them growing up gay. Until 2015 no less, paid for by the Govt.

He knew full well the difference between gay and trans kids but he wanted to eliminate both of them. Thousands of kids.
In the 2015 CAMH review the data showed one kid, brought in at 5 not diagnosed with GD (hence not trans) got 105 sessions, with all the reparative ‘drop the barbie’ treatment to make him 'straight'. That’s child abuse.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 1 2017 8:12 utc | 168

Lisa

You say 'regret' is 1-3%. This may seem low, but it shows that even some trans adults have not been certain of who they are!! Thus, it is likely that not all kids that think they are trans actually are.

Furthermore, I'd guess that this statistic is drawn from a period where being trans is socially unacceptable (in wider society) as it takes time for that regret to develop and be reported. One could well imagine that when the social stigma is greatly reduced that there will be more kids/people that identify as, or allow themselves to think that they may be, trans. (In other words, the percentage of those that regret having the operation will probably rise a somewhat in the future.)

<> <> <> <> <> <>

I think your main concern is different from that of most others at MoA. As a trans person, you'd like to see trans kids be treated in a way that is caring and respectful. Most other here are concerned with larger political and cultural issues.

The skepticism expressed at MoA of a what appears to be a very sensitive and accommodating 'model' parent that comes forward at a politically opportune time to write an Op-Ed in a very political newspaper seems very warranted.

This Op-Ed was a political statement. As such, it made certain assumptions and ignored certain facts, like: 1) Obama acted in a way that made the issue more contentious than it needed to be; and 2) The mother's sensitivity and caring for her child makes it APPEAR that every child KNOWS if they are trans and can be trusted to truthfully report that knowledge. But the abandonment of a 'KNOWN FROM BIRTH' requirement for the operation and the regret of trans adults indicates that some children may think they are trans when they are not.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 1 2017 10:14 utc | 169

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/iran-s-gay-plan-1.729253

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Mar 1 2017 15:05 utc | 170

Jackrabbit: "In other words, the percentage of those that regret having the operation will probably rise a somewhat in the future"

Unlikely, the protocols are pretty well developed these days.

"Regret' tends to come from several sources but not that they are not sure they were trans, such as: (a) medical issues with surgery, this is far less common now as techniques have improved massively (b) The usual rejection, non acceptance and prejudice experienced (c) relationship issues (d) financial issues associated with prejudice..

These are factors external to the transition itself and the amount of gender dysphoria the person was experiencing prior to transition.

1%-3% regret rate (the lower level is for tans men by the way) is unbelievably low, there are literally no medical treatments/surgeries done that show that low a rate, even innocuous things like stomach band surgery has a far higher rate, ditto many cosmetic surgeries.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 2 2017 19:50 utc | 171

And we trans people, with literally our lives on the line here, get a bit fed up being a political football for some ideologies.

Let me state for the record: YOU ARE KILLING US DOING THAT.

We are literally the most oppressed and attacked group in society with very powerful sections of it (such as conservatives, the religious right, the Catholic and other major churches, in the US the GOP, etc) are: DEDICATED TO OUR ELIMINATION FROM SOCIETY and are following a well funded, coordinated and organised plan to achieve that (this is well documented).

We are attacked, on mainstream media no less, endlessly. Our very identities are called into question all the time.

Not a week goes by when an article (such as for the latest American Conservative) appears where I and others have to go and try to debunk the lies, vilification, calls for our elimination from society, accusations of being 'perverts' 'sexual predators', being 'mentally ill' and all the rest.

It is an endless drumbeat of hatred, bad enough for we trans adults devastating for trans kids and adolescents who feel that the whole world hates them.

We suffer some of the highest rates or murder, physical attacks, discrimination in jobs, housing, homelessness, expulsion from the family home, etc of any group in society. In fact this year is setting new records in trans women being murdered in the US.

So when someone adds fuel to the fire by comparing us to 'suicide bombers' I don't care what political point he is trying to make, he is just another person adding to the drumbeat of lies, ignorance and hatred towards us.

And if he is trying to make some political point over our dead bodies, especially the dead bodies of trans kids, then he really needs to think through his ethics.


And if he had wanted to make a valid point then he could have picked out the vastly greater numbers of USA kids being indoctrinated into extremist 'christian' religious right doctrines...little different from what Sunni Wahabbi extremists force onto kids.

You know, those two groups that hate ALL LGBTI people and especially trans ones.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 2 2017 20:03 utc | 172

Meanwhile I'll toodle off the to American Conservative and do some more debunking...sigh....

Do you know that a bunch of families in the US stated to a school board that they were against an anti-LGBTI bullying scheme, because they stated that it would 'indoctrinate kids into the gay agenda and make them gay ' .... sigh.
And this is not an invitation to peddle 'the gay agenda to indoctrinate kids into being gay (by stopping them getting their heads kicked in)' is the same as 'making kids suicide bombers'.... though no doubt someone will do it.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 2 2017 20:11 utc | 173

Thank you Lisa. Very informative.

b's focus was on brainwashed PARENTS, not on trans people.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 2 2017 21:53 utc | 174

Jackrabbit: the only brainwashed parents are those like the religious extremists that reject their kids, send them to 'conversion' therapy, even kick out of the house, sometimes even murder them.

THEY are the real issue. Not the far too small number that accept, love and support their kids. And that applies to ALL LGBTI kids, not just trans ones. The rate of homelessness of LGBTI kids, caused by parents kicking them out of the house, is the highest of any group in society.

Check out the trans kids parents groups for the issues and challenges they face and don't you dare criticise them,. they are doing a difficult and wonderful job.

But it is a sign of the transphobia in society that no one mentions, all those brainwashed parents who reject their trans kids (and LGBI ones too) and are accepted as 'ok' parents, when those real parents who accept their kids get attacked.

Funny standards eh? Hatred good, love bad.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 3 2017 6:55 utc | 175

Here is a (in the end) a heart warming story about how brainwashed conservative Christian mother finally came to terms with their transgender daughter, though at first they punished the child endlessly to stop them:

"Before Kai transitioned, all Kimberly knew was that her child was incredibly feminine, and would persistently transgress gender norms. Kai would tie her t-shirts into skirts or wear one on her head as if it was long hair, and she kept insisting she was a girl. Kimberly did what she thought a good parent would do: whatever it took to prevent her child from being transgender. She researched conversion therapy and implemented the techniques she read about into her parenting style.

"I didn't look up the fact that—how dangerous it was," Kimberly said. "I just looked up how to do it, because I wasn't gonna have this transgender kid; this wasn't going to happen to me."

Whenever Kai told her mom that she's a girl, Kimberly reprimanded her. "I would say, 'No, you're a boy'," Kimberly said. "'You're a boy.'" Kai was constantly being punished—she spent entire days in and out of "time out" for crossing gender boundaries. "This kid spent the majority of her days being punished. There were days when I would have to tell myself that I could not spank her again that day. I would tell myself, 'You have to let this kid out of time out.'""


"Kimberly also attempted to use deliverance ministry to exorcise the dark forces she believed had manifested in her child. Kimberly fasted, and she prayed. "As a Christian, I exhausted every avenue that I thought I was supposed to do at that time," she recalled.

"As hard as I tried to break her little will, she would not be broken," Kimberly said, ashamed of how she initially treated Kai. "I was awful for her. I was horrible to her. I thought that I was doing everything a parent would do to make their kid not be this way.""


"Finally—after acknowledging the fact that Kai was suffering from behavioral problems from being forced to live as a boy, and that punishing her wasn't changing anything about her gender identity—Kimberly decided to do research. Through the internet and other resources, Kimberly learned about transgender people, trans healthcare, gender identity, and the medically recognized treatment for transgender people. She also connected with other Christian mothers of trans kids"

"Some people have argued that young children shouldn't be allowed to self-determine their gender identity, but today, Kimberly strongly disagrees. "All kids know their gender identity," she explained. "It's just that you're focusing on my child's gender identity because it's not what you thought it should be.""

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/she-was-asking-the-lord-to-let-her-die-raising-a-trans-child-in-texas?utm_source=broadlyfbus

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 4 2017 0:25 utc | 176

Lisa @175
The rate of homelessness of LGBTI kids, caused by parents kicking them out of the house, is the highest of any group in society.

You just made that up, didn't you?

Posted by: estouxim | Mar 4 2017 1:31 utc | 177

More child abuse



VICE @VICE

If 8-year-old Max changes his mind about hormone blockers, the effects can be reversed. #TransYouth

1:45am · 4 Mar 2017


Having read the comments I stand at my position.

A child DOES NOT KNOW. A child can be influenced to think it knows. It can be influenced to think the reverse.

To tell a child it is "special" in a way that will likely hinder its normal development process IS CHILD ABUSE.

The issue with "child trans" is mostly about the parents, not about the children.
---
To the Obama edict:
So a 14 year old girl can decide that, today, it wants to be a boy and it then has A RIGHT to go into the boy's bath room and watch the boys pee?

How do the young boys feel about that? Anyone cares for their RIGHT to privacy.

-(Letting other boys watch is (at the age we discuss) naturally different from letting a girl watch ..)
-(You can the gender in that question - the issue stays the same.)

That Obama passed that issue may well have given Trump a whole bunch of additional votes. The Dems are obviously clueless what the people really think.

Posted by: b | Mar 4 2017 6:10 utc | 178

Posted by: b | Mar 4, 2017 1:10:56 AM | 178

It is a very individual personal issue that should not be politicised by anybody.

Any kid with ideologically brainwashed parents or teachers by which side whatever is bound to suffer.

It is a non issue anyway. There is no reason toilets for men have to be built the way they are - except male bonding.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 4 2017 7:15 utc | 179

Thanks to all, learned a lot

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2017 9:46 utc | 180

With all due respect Kids dont know sounds like a motto for authoritarianism

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2017 13:06 utc | 181

What got up my nose with Lisa's remarks was that they are loaded with unsubstantiated, highly emotive & presumptions inferences of EXACTLY the same kind of Hasbara as the Holocaust Survivors routinely deploy in order to bully the audience into accepting the tales as proven beyond doubt. And I've seen and heard this tactic used so often over the last ~16 years, by self-described Holocaust Survivors, that it always rings alarm bells. Bullying weakens the resolve of the victim to maintain scepticism and in that respect it is a very dishonest, and increasingly common, way to defend a position in a discussion/debate.
No apology offered or implied.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 4 2017 15:18 utc | 182

estouxim: "Eight percent (8%) of respondents who were out to the immediate family they grew up with were kicked out of the house, which represents 6% of the whole sample. Those who transitioned 10 or more years ago were twice as likely to have been kicked out of the house (16%) as those who transitioned within the last year (7%)"

"One in twelve people who were out to the family they grew up with got kicked out of the home. Take a glance again at the transgender people you may know. By the numbers, one of us has experienced eviction for being transgender."

Not just transgender we share this with other LGBI people:
"In one study, 40% of homeless youth identified as LGBT. The #1 reason for homelessness among LGBT youth is that they ran away because of family rejection. The #2 reason is that they were thrown out for being LGBT"

Given that LGBT people are about only 4-6% of the population, I repeat

'The rate of homelessness of LGBTI kids, caused by parents kicking them out of the house, is the highest of any group in society."

All by, using B's terminology, 'non -brainwashed' parents.

We LGBTI people see it the other way, parents brainwashed by ignorance and lies told by others and religious extremism are 'The Brainwashed' ones....the facts (and research) supports our point of view.

"What drives LGBT youth to run away? The data is hard to look at. In researching this piece, I ran into one data point that made it incredibly difficult to keep looking at the data.

One shocking statistic from NYC’s Hetrick-Martin Institute showed that homeless queer females aged 13-15 who they had encountered reported that 50% –HALF- were homeless because they ran away after being raped by a father or brother to ‘cure’ them [4"

That's right, so called 'non brainwashed' families RAPING their queer kids..... And the difference to ISIS is what exactly?

That's where B is totally wrong, it is the LGBTI hating parents, here in the west predominantly 'christian', who are the exact same as ISIS and the other Jihadists....

To B (and others here) a 'non brainwashed' parent will physically abuse, rape, murder, kick out of the house their LGBTI kids. While a parent that accepts, loves and supports their kids is some sort of 'weirdo' (or even 'evil').

I think the problem is more with B and the like than loving parents.

But never let some facts (and science) get in the road of good old homophobia and transphobia...where 'beat up, rape, kick out, kill them all' is the catch cry ...just like their best friends ..the Islamic extremists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-do-parents-reject-their-lgbtq-children_us_58b9a3f7e4b0fa65b844b26d

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 5 2017 2:56 utc | 183

Hoarsewhisperer:I can back up everything I say with hard scientific research ... can you? Or do you depend on prejudice, ignorance, homophobia, transphobia and extremist religious beliefs? And please don't quote Leviticus ... unless you never eat bacon and shellfish ...or cut your beard or hair.....or sell land.

To we LGBTI people the so called religious extremists are jokes by their cherry picking of their 'printed words'.... So called 'common sense' conservatives who simply mimic extremist religious beliefs while claiming 'they are different and somehow rational' are even more of a joke.

Ok, try and justify all those LGBTI kids kicked out of their homes and put on the the streets by their 'non brainwashed' parents."Ok I gave them a good kicking and threw them out onto the streets because I love them so much....".

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 5 2017 3:07 utc | 184

B: "So a 14 year old girl can decide that, today, it wants to be a boy and it then has A RIGHT to go into the boy's bath room and watch the boys pee?"

"IT"?????

Well, let your transphobia pour...What do you suggest them B, give them a good kicking, 'rape them straight', send them to 'conversion therapy'...what? Kill them? After all to you they are just 'IT', sub-human things of no worth. The world would be better off without them then would you argue?

Well there is a history of that in some places ... of classifying some people as 'IT'...like ... a country with the name starting with the initial 'G'.

Naturally I am trying to shock you into seeing where your unibformed prejudices take you...which is logically ...a little place called 'extermination'.

Where love and accceptence by parents is 'being brainwashed' the same as parents of young 'suicide bombers,' but hatred, violence, rape and murder of children is 'common sense' and 'the right thing to do'.

You need to do some self examination... because from my, and all LGBTI people and their friends, loving families and supporters, point of view, there is no difference between you and the 'alt right', 'religious right', 'neo-nazis' (like those you rail against in the Ukraine) who all agree with you on this.

We are not 'ITS'...we are valid human beings.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 5 2017 3:31 utc | 185

The parents in this case remind me of those who greet their childrens' coming out of the closet with great enthusiasm, become activists, and start looking for boyfriends or girlfriends for their kids. The poor kids are embarrassed, wanting only quiet support while they explore possibilities in their lives. I have five interesting children, but their accomplishments are their own -- I can't live through them.

I'm sorry Lisa is so angry, and abusive of b. She has lots of information and experience to offer, but she, and gay people, are confronting a world-view that began to open up in the last century or so. The old tradition has its attractions, not least in providing a base for our current culture. But what b. sees as "normal development" may not be so in many cases -- identity as male or female can't be held now as the whole story. There are nuances and variations. But kids who are exploring their version of normal development don't need to be spotlighted as "special" or made models -- let them find their way without stereotypes or exploitation. The several cases in which boys were reared as girls because of damage to their genitals in babyhood show them strongly exerting their male identity at adolescence. I hope that the child in this case will find their own way in due time, regardless of their parents' trying to exploit the experience and share it.

Posted by: mudduck | Mar 6 2017 2:35 utc | 186

Lisa @183
'The rate of homelessness of LGBTI kids, caused by parents kicking them out of the house, is the highest of any group in society."

I'm not familiar with yankeeland's (which the statistics you mention refer to) family law, but I find it hard to believe that parents kicking them out of the house is not considered a crime against the family. Here in euroland it is a crime, and it is prosecuted.

I looked and what I found from those messy statistics that don't provide sample sizes or methodology, which seems to be a characteristic of yankeeland charities whose main purpose, considering what first pops up in their sites, is to get donations, is that all those homeless - by the way they mention either LGBT or LBGTQ, not LGBTI, I guess Q(uestioning)is a much larger group than I(ntersex) probably larger by orders of magnitude than any other letter of the acronym, allowing much better numbers for their purpose- kids in fact overwhelmingly say they ran away, not that they were kicked out.

Therefore I must reiterate that you just made it up, the honest statement would be "caused by incompatibility with their family."

I haven't checked Australian numbers but I suppose the absolute largest number of homeless kids in Australia are from what's left of the aborigines, not from any LGBTwhatever.

Going back to what I wrote above I recall having met the first person to "transition" in my country and that was an absolute novelty, I never heard about it before. That was in 71 or 72. By the end of the 70's there was a big influx of, mostly Brazilian transex prostitutes, whom in yankeeland are known as shemales. They became conspicuous in most big European cities nightlife and therefore normal. So, from my personal observation, I can attest that before this encounter transsexuality was unknown to me and to my circles, was not expressed in large groups as high-school. What was known was homosexuality, and that was frequent, I even had a couple of gay teachers one of whom wouldn't skip an occasion to let us know how much he abhorred women. Besides, as much as I know the means to transition were becoming available just then, with in the one hand development of plastic surgery (breast implants and reduction) and on the other the pill. Transvestism, men who dressed as women, was almost mandatory in carnival. There were gay clubs where performers were invariably men in drag. Nightlife by the mid, late seventies was quite small before the proliferation of discos, so a night out would start on some bar and continue through some cabaret to finish in a gay club as these closed latest. And yet, during those years I never met another local transexual. There were none in the clubs. Therefore, I must conclude they didn't exist.
Now there are hundreds if not thousands, and increasing in every new generation.

It was pop culture that promoted LBGT as a positive, desirable identity, first through so called counterculture and then through all the means used to disseminate the globalizing yankeeland pop culture. By the late 80's it had become mainstream and a focus of political debate. To the detriment of the real political and societal issues like class struggle, racism, imperialism, the destruction of entire societies and cultures, proxy wars, etc. That is why it was promoted, as one more tool of alienation, brainwashing. in the same way as professional sports or the mutually reinforcing movie, music, fashion, gaming scenes.

Brainwashing, such as created by advertising, has results. Saturday or Sunday in Euronews or the BBC there was a piece about the latest gadget from Nintendo and how one swedish idiot had queued for 6 days to be the first to buy it. I don't know how many other idiots queued after him, but there were hundreds.

I have no doubts that the exponential increase in LBGTwhatever identity is a result of advertising, media pressure and in these latest years conditioning through school education. LGBT was not part of the curriculum in my days. The other possible explanation would be exposition to thousands of new chemical compounds that saturate our changed environment , but there's scarce investigation and few results, and even if I strongly suspect it, I can't make the case.

I would also point out that "science" is by definition never definitive, that pure science does not exist, it is controlled through funding, that peer review is nowadays a joke. When was it homosexuality was declared no longer a (very scientific) psychiatric disorder? And how long was that science truth? And I'm sure some statistics have already found the gay gene.
So they wrote in the rags some years ago.

My point is, LGB is objectively a marginal problem, has been with us for millennia, it has existed through all civilizations, and it was never a societal vital issue. It was prosecuted at times, but those were the exceptions. Mostly it was tolerated. But it was never promoted as a positive, much less as a desirable thing. T is a different story. It couldn't exist before the means were available, plastic surgery and hormonal treatment = the pill. So, "transition" before the availability of these means was impossible, the nearest to it would be castration and I very much doubt that those subjected to it did so willingly. And yet -got no statistics on that, you probably do- the overwhelming majority of those that nowadays "transition" do not castrate themselves.

So, I'm sorry, but being trapped in the wrong body sounds terribly hollow to me. It sounds much more like a social construct then a biological one. Maybe you have plenty of examples from past centuries, I haven't heard of one. Heard of plenty in present days. Like this one immortalised in poem by the immortal Carlos Cano.

b is right when he places both characters in the same level. Both use their children to make a political statement. In my view both are deeply alienated, and just as you try to make the case of justifying the mother one could, from another system of values, make the case to justify the father, for instance, that he acted in the best interest of the child freeing her from this valley of tears, guaranteeing her place in paradise. In fact they both abuse their children to fulfil a political goal. The toilet debate is absolute nonsense from beginning to end. People in wheelchairs have a problem with toilets, not LGBTIQwhatever. Just one more way to deflect debate, yankeeland is indeed a very sick society.

Posted by: estouxim | Mar 7 2017 5:51 utc | 187

estouxim: " Both use their children to make a political statement."

Incoherent bigotry. Ignorance combined with arrogance.

I already gave links to actual parents who have transgender kids, maybe you should look at them...before doing the old 'transgender shuffle' ....cis heterosexual guy make statements not based on facts, but hey who cares 'better to talk at them, than talk with them and learn something'

Oh and your Eurocentric bias shows, many cultures accepted other genders and sexualities throughout history. Only the so called 'christian' European invaders imposed their views of only heterosexuality and 2 separate genders being allowed. Yes alongside LGB people transgender ..and intersex people have always existed.

" sounds terribly hollow to me" Ignorance combined with arrogance. "I don't feel that way so no one else can'. I battled gender dysphroia for 40+ years and it was horrible...don't tell me I and all the others like me imagined it.

And don't pull that old "marginal problem' bit, as a white, conservative, probably religious, heterosexual male (or at least pretends to be) ..well everything is 'marginal' to you., Indigenous people ...women especially, I bet you whine all the time about them and 'feminism', other ethnic people ...and all the rest....to you sitting at the top of the pile 'punching down; all the time...trouble is we, combined, outnumber you now.

After all the mentally ill, Gypsies, Jews and Slavs were all 'marginal' to the racist supremacists in a certain country.... And yes I have talked to actual German Nazi supporters who said that to me, 'he did great things, they were just "marginal problems" that should not distract from all the good he did'...quote-unquote.

The true measure of a society, or an individual, is how they treat the perceived weakest members.

I will state that someone that attacks vulnerable transgender kids is NO different to a Sunni extremist IS member ...none whatsoever.

Posted by: Lisa | Mar 14 2017 9:39 utc | 188

Lisa:

1-There were no transgenders before the means: hormones, surgery and silicone.

2-There were no transgenders in popular culture, literature, recorded history prior to the 60's when the means became available and the pill allowed for the sexual revolution.

3-The 60's counterculture was allmost imediatly coopted by the propaganda apparatus, became mainstream and was used gradually but increasingly as a distraction from the real crucial political issues.

4-As such, and aiming at atomization of society, lifestyle and tribal identification were promoted. Sexual identity was one of those. Sexual non-conformism was first accepted, then exhalted.

5-Simultaneously the physichal environment became evermore contaminated with new chemichal compounds that have effects on the development and health of living beings.

6-Concomitantly with 4 and 5 transexuals became visible and multiplied, exponentially.

7-Homosexuality has been with mankind forever, it's well recorded in history, in popular culture and in literature. Untill now it was never exhalted or promoted, it was mostly tolerated.

I hope that makes my point clearer for you to understand, and I hope you agree my premises are fair.

The question that I ask is, why this growth in transexual numbers? What causes it? I think 4 and 5 are probable explanations but since I'm not awhare of scientific consensus on the effects of exposure to new chemicals I think 4 plays the major role.
Just like piercings and tatoos, everyone wants one nowadays, sexual identity seems to have become something one chooses.

Oh, and I wonder where in what I wrote before might you find something that makes me sound like Hitler.

Posted by: estouxim | Mar 14 2017 14:16 utc | 189

@ Posted by: estouxim | Mar 14, 2017 10:16:14 AM | 189

Well said, indeed. Enjoy following your many interesting posts.

Posted by: Outraged | Mar 14 2017 15:16 utc | 190

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