Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 25, 2017

Librulism Run Amok - "My 7-Year-Old Is Transgender"

A society concerned about the welfare of its children would protect this boy from his mother's abuse.  But here she is rewarded with Washington Post op-ed space to promote her politics to the detriment of her child.

My 7-year-old daughter Henry is transgender. She’d change Trump’s mind.

The first time we knew that Henry was different, she was 2. When she found her cousin’s Barbie doll, she lit up like a Christmas tree. “The hair, Mama,” she cooed. “Look at her looong hair!” Henry continued to show us, in every way she could, that she wanted to live as a girl.

Henry is a boy. His mother is as crazy as this dude.

I have raised children. Two, three or seven year old kids have no real concept of gender. They can and do change their roles all the time. Henry is a boy, born a boy with all the biological accessories. A boy who likes to play with dolls is perfectly normal and does not express or constitutes anything special.

Every boy I watched growing up tried and mimicked at times a girls role - put on skirts, put on lipstick etc. (I also inherited pictures showing me as a child doing such.)  Likewise girls also change their role into male ones, taking up typical male role behavior, "I am the father now." That is the "play age".

Later, in the early pubertal development, comes a phase where sexual enthusiasm to persons of ones own gender is prevalent. A boy's first "best friend forever" is usually a boy. The girl's "best friend forever" is usually a girl. It does in no way mean that these kids are homosexual. After that phase comes the real sexual orientation and with it the development of a real gender identity. Only when that process is finished can a judgement be made whether the psychological gender identity really differs from the biological one. Only then can real transsexuality, which is a rare phenomenon, be diagnosed.

Is there any peer review research that comes up with a different conclusion?

Real transsexuals can find help with a medical gender change. The country with the most liberal attitude towards such is (the usually demonized) Iran.

I find the current propaganda campaign in "librul" U.S. media for the "rights" of "transsexual children" deeply disturbing. It puts policy above the welfare of children. Equally disturbing is the role of parents in creating such "transsexuals".

The mother writing the WaPo op-ed is doing her child no favor in projecting her preferences on him. She reminds me of those crazy parents who sent their 7 year old child to blow herself up in a police station in Damascus. That girl did not believe that she was a boy. But she believed, like her parents, that she would immediately go to heaven after killing Syrian policemen by blowing herself up in a police station. Her father had told her so.

What is the difference between that father and the mother that tells her five year old boy to use a public girls bathroom because she think he feels like one?

Posted by b on February 25, 2017 at 13:29 UTC | Permalink

next page »

She reminds you of a bomber.

You need to chill.

Posted by: librul | Feb 25 2017 13:39 utc | 1

let the abuse begin

these have become third rail topics and are the last to show up for divisive politics with a supposed line between republicans and democrats. for the life of me I cannot understand why the democratic party allows this as there are transgender people as well as homosexuals in both parties....oddly enough there seem to be more in high places on the right.

imho certain people with crazy agendas force these wedge issues into the liberal party platform. I once was enthused with the ACLU but for the last few years they have only been interested in advancing homosexual issues and ignore the erosion of personal freedoms. I suppose it is not only because the head of the ACLU is a homosexual.

at any rate, this is another of those silly things we are allowed to argue about, well within the circle of acceptable topics. let us not stray into those areas that are actually important to the survival of the human race on this planet.


Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 25 2017 13:41 utc | 2

I saw something disturbing the other day on Twitter. White middle aged lesbian had adopted a black toddler, labeled him genderqueer, paraded him at anti trump protests in a pink hat, dressed him girls clothing and had an older lesbian daughter. Liberals and their perverse guilt. She was using this child as an accessory and a prop. I felt very sad for him and disgusted by her.

Posted by: Guest | Feb 25 2017 13:56 utc | 3

It's about sexualising the children. You can be sure pedophiles are behind it

Posted by: Anon | Feb 25 2017 14:07 utc | 4

@dan of steele

What is happening this morning? Is there something in the coffee?
Loose as a goose with the hyperbole.

You don't seriously believe what you wrote:

the ACLU but for the last few years they have only been interested in advancing homosexual issues and ignore the erosion of personal freedoms

Before your next sip o java head on over to the ACLU website and see what they have been up to. Be glad that they are there. For you. And me. And us.

For example, you will find:

The ACLU is representing four people being sued for defamation because they exercised their right to free speech and voiced opposition to a coal ash landfill in their small town. The defendants, all residents of Uniontown, Alabama — a poor, predominantly Black town with a median per capita income of around $8,000 — are being sued for $30 million by Georgia-based Green Group Holdings because the residents are fighting the hazardous coal ash that the company keeps in a residential landfill. The ACLU asked a federal court to dismiss the lawsuit on First Amendment grounds. In February 2017, the parties reached a settlement in which the company dropped the lawsuit and agreed to better environmental protections at the landfill.

Posted by: librul | Feb 25 2017 14:16 utc | 5

What 3 and 4 said.
This is pure insanity, worse than late Rome.

Posted by: Manirai | Feb 25 2017 14:16 utc | 6

Let the children play. In my time girls played with dolls; for boys, they were toy soldiers or action figures. There was a tendency to use different terms for similar play. Plus they don't tend to be long term obsessions ... that is unless the parent makes them so. I have to agree with the earlier points that the media has become more disgusting in how it portrays children. And yet if one complains about this, they are labeled fascist and compared to Putin or Hitler.

Posted by: Curtis | Feb 25 2017 14:35 utc | 7

It looks like another Washington Post click bait article. There's not one word in the article where the parents and the child consulted with a doctor, psychiatrist, or psychologist to arrive at their decisions.

Posted by: Les | Feb 25 2017 14:41 utc | 8

Agree with your sentiments. But I propose that we are being trolled.

Why is all this craziness being given so much press? Why are we being told that 'transgender rights' are on a par with outlawing slavery? Because it's absurd! Because it will rile us up and distract us from the things that the oligarchy really cares about!

The rich don't care about abortion or gay marriage or transgender rights. They are happy to use their control of the mass media to stir the pot and have us screaming at each other over these issues. The rich do care about bank bailouts and cheap labor and endless winless wars. The more we talk about the former, and the less about the latter, the better, for the elites.

Posted by: TG | Feb 25 2017 14:50 utc | 9

@librul She reminds you of a bomber.

You need to chill.

The man isn't a bomber. The seven year old girl next to him decided that she needed to blow herself up in a police station to go to heaven. Just like the boy in the WaPo op-ed decided he needed to be a girl and to use the girls bathroom ...

(What the real girls in the school think about that dick watching them pee is obviously irrelevant.)

Posted by: b | Feb 25 2017 15:01 utc | 10

I read an observation once somewhere (source long forgotten), to the effect that as more of the true fundamental civil rights in the US were being taken away - since 9/11 and by the Patriot Act among other things - the second-tier rights of gender and elective expressions were being brought to the front of attention as diversionary concerns.

This observation has always struck me as being completely the case. I'm sure it all comes out of a well worn playbook held by powers and players in the background.

Example: I know someone who thinks that one achievement of Obama was to get rid of the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" in the US military and thereby to address the gender issue squarely. No mention of the war crimes those soldiers were being sent to commit.

Diversions, diversions.

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 25 2017 15:05 utc | 11

After that (puberty) phase comes the real sexual orientation and with it the development of a real gender identity.

I agree. The kind of claptrap you're addressing is pernicious. I've never met a parent who questioned the gender of his/her apparently normal 7 year-old child. Given the role the Fake News MSM plays in Society it would seem that WaPo intends to induce premature concerns in parents of young kids, just to undermine the intermittent joys of parenthood.
Trump is right; the Fake News MSM are truly disgusting.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 25 2017 15:24 utc | 12

I think the current peer-reviewed psychological consensus is that core gender identity is established at around three years old, becomes rigid around seven years old, and relaxes somewhat thereafter. See for example Children's Search for Gender Cues

Also, you seriously can't tell the difference between telling a child to blow itself up and telling it to use whichever restroom it prefers?

Posted by: Tom Allen | Feb 25 2017 15:26 utc | 13

As TG and Grieved say: just colourful confetti thrown into the air to distract from the looting.

Posted by: Cortes | Feb 25 2017 15:27 utc | 14

[off topic content - deleted -

okie, you have been here long enough to know that off topic comments disturb discussions. Take the time to find an appropriate thread or use the Open Thread for such link dumping. b.]

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 25 2017 16:01 utc | 15

Insane parent encourages and directs a child to blow herself up for rewards in the afterlife in accordance with a superstitious belief system which was imprinted on the parent.

Insane parent encourages and directs a child to make an absolute determination of his sexual orientation before the onset of puberty.

Severity is different. Both are insane.

Posted by: fastfreddy | Feb 25 2017 16:03 utc | 16

(What the real girls in the school think about that dick watching them pee is obviously irrelevant.)

LoL! You can't see the girls peeing, b. They pee sitting down in cubicles with doors on them. I know this because on my first-ever day at school I went into the GIRLS toilet for a pee. I couldn't read and didn't know that there were separate toilets for BOYS. But I did know that one had to pee against a wall. The wall (opposite the cubicles) was very long and it was all mine!
I can still recall the varied and assorted squeals...
"Look! He's doing it!"

When I'd finished, a couple of nice 'big' girls escorted me to the entrance of the BOYS toilet and urged me to remember its location, which I did.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 25 2017 16:06 utc | 17

[off topic content - deleted - b.]

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 25 2017 16:06 utc | 18


Yep, just keeps everybody squawking.

Meanwhile, squads of newly minted ICE agents are combing the streets for Hispanics. There's a brand new mandate for private for-profit prisons and they're gonna need people to fill them. Think Tillerson and Kelly are miffed because Mexico said it won't accept non-documented aliens from a third country? Nope, why send all those money-generating assets south?

Posted by: peter | Feb 25 2017 16:09 utc | 19

Long ago--1966--lyrics by The Who:

"I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my mom won't admit it
I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But if I say I am, I get it."

Interesting info about their idea for the song,'m_a_Boy

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 25 2017 16:10 utc | 20

I live in Western Massachusetts so I'm right in the epicenter of this. I have attended the Miss Trans New England Pageant, which was quite entertaining. The contestants are all "ex-men" who have decided to become women. They do not have any "ex-women" and I have not observed any relationship between these two groups, but there is a lot I haven't seen. The strangest thing is that all of this makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in regard to how social things function.

I'm pretty sure that gender signaling is 100% arbitrary -- "Blouse" buttons are on the left and the buttonholes are on the right for women -- "Shirt" buttons are on the right and the buttonholes are on the left for men. Women's cloths pockets are invariably about 1/3rd smaller than men's. And it goes on and on.

Where I live the "bathroom problem" has been completely solved: Public establishments simply have two (I don't know why two, maybe because some people take a long time...) small bathrooms, and only one individual is permitted to use a bathroom at a time. This is nicer for everyone, since everybody hates "public restrooms" to begin with.

If the goofy mother in the newspaper article raises her biological boy as a girl, he will likely turn around and become a male character anyway. This is definitely approaching MK-ULTRA territory.

Of course this is all another giant social distraction to help enable the Shadow State Gods to treat us as their helpless playthings. They who need to manipulate us are the truly demented ones. They are the apex perverts.

Posted by: blues | Feb 25 2017 16:11 utc | 21

only a voyeuristic culture could manage to make a mountain out of this mole hill. transgenders are what, 0.3% of the population?

but then, the % of psychosexually bewildered peeping toms in Washington who get their rocks off launching hellfire missiles is hugely smaller.

Posted by: john | Feb 25 2017 16:24 utc | 22

I agree about the facts, but to equate it with turning a kid in a bomb is really way beyond. Stay with your usual topics and forget about this comparatively minor isssues - please B.

Posted by: Pnyx | Feb 25 2017 16:25 utc | 23

Funny, how we never hear of transgenderism before 1948 when the first operation was carried out.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 25 2017 16:27 utc | 24

Kids like to role play.

Some years back my friend's five year-old son fancied himself as Superman.

Next time I met him in the car I said "Hello Superman!"

The little blighter was annoyed. "My name's not Superman. I'M SPIDERMAN!"

Thank God no major surgery was involved.

Posted by: el sid | Feb 25 2017 16:32 utc | 25

Speaking of stupidity ...

Anyone see this?

Essentially Israel has proven something ... maybe that the US and Israel are gung ho supporters of ISIS? No wonder the deep (shit) state is opposed to getting along with Russia ... and finds Trumps rhetoric so unsettling.

Too bad Clinton didn't get elected ... we'd all be looking for fall-out shelters!

Posted by: rg the lg | Feb 25 2017 16:35 utc | 26

The more we talk about the former, and the less about the latter, the better, for the elites.

When this sort of transgender ideology becomes institutionalized, unfortunately, it is necessary to talk about it. People can potentially lose their jobs by not going along with this madness. It has become quite serious.

I don't really care what adults do to modify their own bodies, but I greatly resent being told how I am supposed to think about these things. No, I will never consider a biological man a real woman if I know the truth about his biology, although I may be fooled now and then.

Letting children "decide" to pursue "gender reassignment" is obviously grotesque.

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 25 2017 16:40 utc | 27

For those unfamiliar with it, this blog is excellent (though it is specifically from a feminist slant):

Also, this philosophical talk is worth a listen:

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 25 2017 16:52 utc | 28

What happens when doctors involved in handling transgender issues aren't extremist enough:

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 25 2017 16:59 utc | 29

I'm disappointed in you, Moon. Hyperbole, judgements, name calling - all worthy of the vicious alt-right.

I'm transgender. Growing up in a large Catholic family my life was hell - despite all the "cognitive behavior" and "social cues" around me. I knew at 5 years old that I was different, but my family and society actively repressed those feelings.

Who are you to judge whether or not I am a "real transsexual" needing surgery to feel better? I now feel awesome just as I am, thank you very much.

Lastly, this "battle" over transgender rights is effectively over. With rare exception, the young people I meet get it - they just don't care how someone expresses their identity - whatever it might be. I raised two children, neither of whom are trans, but they both get it, as do their children.

So get over yourself and show some compassion and support for those whose gender expression is different than your stiff expectations.

Posted by: Trisha Driscoll | Feb 25 2017 17:02 utc | 30

Might' check out this definition folks.

b, there is a difference between liberal and just plain dumb.

This issue is brought to the fore, for one reason only, to demonize the word liberal.
Just more BS to hide real life and death issues. The world is full of dumb parents, and they aren't all liberal.

Just like the word neo-liberal, what neo-liberals pursue is far from liberal.

Posted by: ben | Feb 25 2017 17:04 utc | 31

Speaking of sexual self identity I bring up the subject of same sex marriage. Financially speaking Qui bono?

Is that pizza I smell?

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 25 2017 17:05 utc | 32

I share to an extent b's concern. What is missing is adequate consideration of the fact that the sexual identity play of kids reflects their attempt to figure out not just "who they are" but who they are in relation to other people. When children play around with their sexual identity, they are working with fantasies of their relationship to others, and the early fantasizing is inescapably about their parents.

Children who are having trouble managing their relationship with their parents can end up "solving" the problem by imagining themselves to be different from the (unwanted/unloved/somehow deficient) person they feel their parent takes them to be. What appears to the child to be simply self-knowledge is in fact a program to make things better.

It is truly sad that the legitimate program of acceptance of transsexuals has come to entail a dogged naivite regarding basic child development literature. The transsexual's investment in "really" being the opposite sex, and being free of what they were trying to escape, to the point of completely repressing it, turns into a demand to suppress our understanding of the complexities of child development. I disagree with the bomber analogy, but the child in question is quite possibly going to be helped into a fairly miserable, self-absorbed life by their nominally accepting parent.

Posted by: anondooronron | Feb 25 2017 17:08 utc | 33


I don't post very often here for reasons I prefer to keep to myself. this topic seemed so silly that I allowed myself to vent. sorry if that hurt your feelings.

another poster, chipnik perhaps, likened all this to professional pickpockets working the rubes. create a distraction and relieve the mark of his wallet.

that is what I see happening here. It is a new low for WaPo which has been incessant in its attacks on Trump. I am not here to defend him but I do believe that their attacks are for the wrong thing. In the overall scheme of things this little boy who likes to dress up like a girl cannot possibly be anywhere near as important as threatened nuclear exchanges with Russia for example.

as an old trekkie, the words of Spock seem wise to me when he proclaimed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 25 2017 17:17 utc | 34

Clearly, discourse over "identity" is intended to be controversial and become yet another Wedge Issue designed to divide people from gaining the solidarity required to confront and defeat the Deep State. Promotion of such by the Yenta Media and its political allies's been escalating since 2000 and needs to be put into its grave--people are people and their actions are way more important than whatever identity they choose: Bush & Cheney would still be a War Criminals even if they were proven to be transgender lovers.

The more important topic mooted by b is the abusive use of children for political ends and as terror weapons--both despicable, IMO.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 25 2017 17:19 utc | 35

This is quite silly. The notion that someone from a genetically-defined sex can be sure of what it exactly feels like to be from a different genetically-defined sex - and therefore would know his genetically-defined sex is "wrong" - is a ludicrous lunacy. This has been settled a long time ago:

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 25 2017 17:31 utc | 36

The notion that someone from a genetically-defined sex can be sure of what it exactly feels like to be from a different genetically-defined sex - and therefore would know his genetically-defined sex is "wrong" - is a ludicrous lunacy.

The same argument (or at least a similar one) is made at the end of the talk I linked to above (with some borrowing from Wittgenstein, I think).

Also, I have yet to see a good argument as to why someone's subjective gender identity should be given more importance by the rest of us than their biological sex.

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 25 2017 17:44 utc | 37

I dunno is the bathroom issue that critical right now?

If I was Trump I'd have stayed away from this by saying; "My plate is full, I'll let the courts settle Obama's bathroom dictate"

Of course with Pence pushing this issue, you might have to tell him to fall in line.

Posted by: S Brennan | Feb 25 2017 17:44 utc | 38

I believe, Moon, you have constructed a rationale to negate the woman and her childs experience. You may be correct. But you have a thesis. She and her son have the DATA.

I think you are writing checks with, perhaps, no money in the bank. I dunno

In any case, i think this is one of the best blogs i have ever read. Thanks for keeping it going....

Posted by: bernie | Feb 25 2017 17:55 utc | 39

It's for the children!!!!

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Just more Trump hate.

Imagine the fun they'd be having if Trump had tried to keep Flynn. Instead, we get THIS.

It's all a power play by despicable establishment power players that want moar war and TPP (expanded financial services monopolies at the expense of deplorable Americans). TINA! (There Is No Alternative)

They'd like you to forget what Obama did to for kids. His neolib sucker punch can be summed up as comforting the comfortable and afflicting the afflicted: austerity for the poor and bank bailouts and tax cuts for the rich. Whataguy.

Citizens United has destroyed representative democracy. All that remains is the lip service to keep the deplorables suckers rubes at bay. Blues is right that we need a different voting system (a variant of ranked choice) but the establishment is NOT going to let that happen. So have a look at the Pirate Party. Its a way to introduce direct democracy into a representative system.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 25 2017 18:09 utc | 40

@17 Hoarsewhisperer.. good story.. thanks!

@30 trisha... thanks for sharing.. i am seeing this a lot.. i suppose being able to have surgery and hormone treatment to alter one's biological sex is an important aspect of why.. seems like the level of malaise and discomfort in living on the planet is being expressed countless different ways - and this is one more of them - being transgender.. i have a musician friend who is transgender.. i was relatively close to them from the transition from guy to women.. i think to go thru this is incredibly challenging psychologically, aside from all else. at the same time i think our world is becoming increasingly crazy. the story b gives sounds real enough to me and is quite disturbing for all the obvious reasons.. people seem to have gone bonkers.. i think commenting on it is far game, especially the article from wapo which is the first link in this article.. a general madness has descended and one of the first places to pick it up is in the msm.. i am pretty sure about that..

Posted by: james | Feb 25 2017 18:18 utc | 41

@30 Trisha Driscoll

I knew at 5 years old that I was different,...

I have a breaking news for, darling.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 25 2017 18:30 utc | 42

@37 RudyM

Also, I have yet to see a good argument as to why someone's subjective gender identity should be given more importance by the rest of us than their biological sex.

It is a cultural thing. Concept of separate soul and body combined with spirituality without God, where the soul is supreme over body but nothing is supreme over soul. That's why they talk about being in wrong body, and trying to change the body to fit the soul, instead of talking about confused soul seeking God's guidance to accept the body God has given to them.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 25 2017 19:00 utc | 43

That mother's behaviour is as sick as the one of the jihadi father. This recent focus on transgenders who make up a very marginal amount of the population is just creating another contradiction out of thin air to further distract those people of the population who would otherwise react against their western opressive regimes. And it also obfuscates the political spectrum where (far) right parties/news papers can claim they aren't bigots.

Posted by: xor | Feb 25 2017 19:10 utc | 44

Oh Boy b,

You sure poked a hornets nest of neurally hard wired opinions.

Anyway, thank you for your courage in swimming into new shark infested waters.

Still the best and most important blog I have ever encountered.

And thanks to many here for considered discourse rather than personal prejudices.

Posted by: juannie | Feb 25 2017 19:23 utc | 45

@Bernie, 39

I believe, Moon, you have constructed a rationale to negate the woman and her childs experience. You may be correct. But you have a thesis. She and her son have the DATA.

But is that really true? He isn't "negating" any experience per se. He's negating an interpretation of those experiences. The interpretation isn't even her own but one foisted upon both of them by psychology, telling them that, because the child is expressing these certain behaviors (the other "gender," however that is socially defined), that child without doubt should belong to a different sex.

In the United States, I remember, not that long ago, recovered memory therapy was in vogue and approved by many psychologists. It also led to legal consequences like children being removed from their mothers and fathers because they would remember being raped and abused. Later, it was demonstrated that the methods used in the therapy were unreliable, frequently producing fake memories rather than reproducing real ones. Someone else posted a website which used the similar case of lobotomies.

The history of abnormal psychology is replete with errors like those. Why we're so terribly confident that, this time and for sure, we have resolved significant issues in gender, sex, and identity correctly is beyond me. I don't have a problem with an adult choosing to go through with the hormones and operation, but experimenting on children is reckless.

Posted by: Abstract Generality | Feb 25 2017 19:33 utc | 46

Creepy direction to take this b.

I really want to agree with the sentiment your expressing, but Jesus what a weird way to go about doing so.

Maybe I just get irked when people correlate their anecdotal experiences to "this is the way things surely are in reality." I wonder why you'd even bother mentioning peer reviewed research without looking at any. Any subscription to a quality database should allow you plenty of opportunities to confirm/disconfirm your biases. Lots of research out there on this topic from all sorts of perspectives.

But man, when science becomes politicised it gets messy. You're here complaining about that, probably rightly so, but your post oozes in that same attitude. I don't look to politicians for info about these things. Nor political commentators.

Comparison to mother getting kid to blow themselves up was pretty unnerving man. I'd stick to foreign policy.

Posted by: FecklessLeft | Feb 25 2017 19:49 utc | 47

Jackrabbit @ 40 said:"Citizens United has destroyed representative democracy."

Yep! No doubt....

Posted by: ben | Feb 25 2017 19:51 utc | 48

@46 Abstract Generality.. excellent post.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Feb 25 2017 19:58 utc | 49

I agree with the-"this is another wedge issue to distract everyone from the important issues". Being a monetarily conservative person, I imagine these sex change operations and follow up are expensive - does insurance pay for these? When there are people without the ability to pay for needed medical care and/or medicines - is this the best way to spend money on health? Being a boy in the 50s and a teenager in the 60s there was still a lot of weirdness about sexuality, especially homosexuality. Attitudes for many people have changed for the better. Some of this overemphasis on LGBT issues is the pendulum like way cultural attitudes change. But there does appear to me for there being some powers with other agendas using this emotion rousing issue. It is obvious to me that the Military-Industrial-National Security complex is the biggest issue that isn't being dealt with. Also the way the elites decided in the 70s that they wanted to do away with the changes that the Great Depression forced on them - a more egalitarian society in the developed world - and look how they have succeeded. Hopefully those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first build up.

Posted by: gepay | Feb 25 2017 20:41 utc | 50

Concept of separate soul and body combined with spirituality without God, where the soul is supreme over body but nothing is supreme over soul.

For those who believe that, there is at least some sort of logic to it. There is a metaphysical basis. But there is absolutely no reason this should become institutionalized in secular institutions.

(I am an irreligious agnostic myself. I don't see transgenderism as an offense against a divine order, but I do see transgender ideology as an assault on reason, as well as a threat to children's well-being.)

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 25 2017 20:47 utc | 51

whats the difference between he father who send her daughter to blow herself up in a station?

the boy gets to live, the girl died. And as she was sacrificed by her father, i hope that if there is a god and a heaven that Peter did let her in, and send her to finally just simply play with all the other kids in heaven.

as for age and sexual orientation, my cuzzy was a flamboyant queen at a very early age ( and funny as again from an early age onward) , he had not idea why he was different, but good old frankie was different, and no amount of praying away the gay or beating the gay away worked. He ran away from home and came out publicly in the 80's to be repudiated by his family as was his sister who came out as a lesbian a few years later.

Frankly its simple, the reason we hear about this now is because people speak about this now more often and in less then hushed voices.

this post should simply be deleted.

Posted by: Sabine | Feb 25 2017 20:54 utc | 52

Curious but relevant anecdote:
Some years ago I had a job traveling the country and was staying in a hotel in "conservative" Raleigh, North Carolina; there was a medium-sized group of prostitutes plying their trade out of the hotel, who were fairly obviously men->women transgender and there was a steady stream of men in expensive cars pulling over to pick them up. No police ever showed up to harass them in the three days I was there, it was right out in the open.

It's just an observation. Other hotels (for example, Arizona) also had prostitutes working out of them, heterosexual women in that case, who were selling opiates and cocaine on the side (cheapest in the country, right across the border from Mexico). And yet these were some of the more "conservative" regions we were working in. However, it was also noticeable in San Diego, with one guy at our worksite offering access to Asian prostitutes who had an online website.

In general, it seems "social conservatives" accept this kind of behavior as long as it stays in the closet or at the fringes of society, where they don't mind covertly sampling it, but they're outraged when it breaks out into public view, whereas "social liberals" think it's better out in the open, since the stuff that goes on behind closed doors (i.e. your pedophile priests, etc.) can get really creepy, and they also tend to get a kick out of flaunting social norms (something of a chip on the shoulder mentality, you can see this sort because they're always looking for a reaction).

Regardless, the people who think these issues are more important than, for example, a country's decision to go to war, or the rising gap between the rich and the poor across the country, they're the real lunatics, on both sides.

In this particular case being discussed, it looks like yet another overly controlling parent trying to establish their child's identity for them. I wouldn't call it conservative or liberal ideology, more like a control freak problem. Let the kids figure it out for themselves.

Posted by: nonsense factory | Feb 25 2017 21:01 utc | 53

Iran may indeed be quite "liberal" in helping people change sex, to the extent that the government actually helps foot the bill, but the vast majority of Iranians who want to transition are homosexual men who would otherwise be discriminated against, even jailed in a country where homosexuality is outlawed. This "liberal" attitude to transsexuals exists due to a fatwa made by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in response to a request. After Khomeini's death, this fatwa, like other fatwas he declared, became law.

We don't hear of Iranian women wanting to transition to men but perhaps that's because Iranian lesbians find other avenues to express their sexual preferences that the authorities are ignorant of.

The real issue is that we live in societies that have inherited religious and cultural traditions and customs that arose in the Middle East hundreds of years ago and which are premised on strict segregation of the sexes in daily life. I don't just mean the Jewish-Christian-Islamic religious tradition and all their attendant cultural baggage; I also include the cultural baggage that was inherited from the ancient Greeks (specifically Athenians in whose society the wives and daughters of citizens lived secluded lives and worked at weaving) and Romans. In addition we are also heirs of early Industrial Revolution societies in which textile-making was the first industry to become factory-based and its work became gendered, with women (and children) tending spinning and weaving machines, and men supervising the women and children.

If we were to compare Western society as it developed through the centuries with various non-Western societies, we will find that generally in Western society gender identities (and the range of activities allowed to men and women) were more fixed and rigid than in other societies, with the result that homosexuality and other "deviant" behaviours were suppressed and punished.

In parts of North America where indigenous peoples adopted horses and horse-riding, became more mobile in pursuing bison and developed a militaristic tradition - these are people like the Dakota (previously known as Sioux) - some of these groups had a "berdache" tradition in which men could live as women, wear women's clothes and do women's work, marry other men and adopt and raise children. I do not know if lesbian women in these communities were allowed to live as men. Some Polynesian societies used to have similar "berdache" traditions.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 25 2017 21:03 utc | 54

and whats up with the 'librul'? Is that to be an insult?

Really is it that slow a news day?

Posted by: Sabine | Feb 25 2017 21:05 utc | 55


and whats up with the 'librul'? Is that to be an insult?

Nah, it it just a shorthand for the basket of adorables.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 25 2017 21:18 utc | 56

"...What the real girls in the school think about that dick watching them pee is obviously irrelevant."

Wow, if I were your kid, I wouldn't confide in you. I don't even want to know how you define "real girl" is, but I know who the "dick" is.

Posted by: anon | Feb 25 2017 21:26 utc | 57

@dan of steel
In reply to your #34.

Agree with you that nothing is "as important as
threatening nuclear exchanges with Russia."

I was a single issue voter this time around and that
was it for me.

Imagine a former Nader voter voting for Trump.

Hillary and her oft repeated intention to shoot down Russian
planes over Syria was, imho, all any sane person should have needed to hear.

Imagine a former Nader voter voting for Trump.

Full disclosure:

To defeat Hillary the numerical impact of voting for Trump rather than Jill Stein
made me decide to vote for Trump. However, there was no way I could convince
my wife, a life-long Democrat, to vote for Trump so she and I made a deal. She switched from Hillary to Stein and I switched from Trump to Stein.

Posted by: librul | Feb 25 2017 21:41 utc | 58

Sabine @55

Where have you been? There's an almost mandatory protocol to show utter contempt through misspelling.

Until recently the accepted spelling on here was amerika or (even more clever) amerikkka (get it? three ks like the clan)

That's all changed now. I mean "make Amerika great again" is hardly stirring. Sounds kinda contradictory, don't you think? Besides Trump has changed it from a bad government to a good government. Just ask anybody. So we can now dispense with the ks.

This is however subject to change without notice. Like say, if Trump didn't really want peace with Russia or wasn't as compelled as he lets on about draining the swamp. Then it would be the old Amerikkka again faster than you could say obomber or obambam.

There's been some indications that Trump isn't that friendly to Russia. And he keeps filling his cabinet with swamplike creatures. But we've mostly agreed that it's his cleverness behind this. It's just to keep the deep state out of his hair while he brings peace to the world.

Posted by: peter | Feb 25 2017 21:51 utc | 59

@Sabine #55
It certainly aint a slow news day where I'm sitting altho I'm sorta reluctant to go into it lest b drag out the big delete button. Of course the parents of this kid is crazy but unfortunately the world is full of crazy parents undoubtedly the result of their own parents imbecility.
Since where gonna be stuck with anecdotes since the original article is based on one and as was pointed out above, wading thru the research would be a chore, here's one. Years ago I used to walk two of my kids to school every morning the kids were young (5 & 7) n I enjoyed the exercise. We walked past a tennis court complex and every morning would see a big grumpy bloke screaming at a 7 or 8 year old girl in Serbo-croat while he hit tennis balls at her demanding she hit them back. It was the same when I returned home a couple hours (and a coupla coffees at the local hangout) later.
I got really pissed about it and spent some time trying to work out why was it because the bloke was a foreigner? I didn't think so. The attitude of most people was that parents do what they do and that is the end of it. If some asshole wants to dream of millionairedom by torturing his kid so be it? Many other migrants from former socialist states were spending all their money on lottery tickets was this any worse?
It was but nobody got that. Parenting is a funny business - finding the line between giving a kid enough information and ideas to make good choices and pushing them where you want them to be is not simple at all.
It varies hugely from kid to kid and whatever gratification you may feel from hearing an 11 year old ranting about some piece of inhumanity the 7 o'clock news is trying to sell is always undermined by that nagging doubt "Is he/she saying that because she/he believes it or have I indoctrinated him/her?"
There are always outliers setting the extremes in behaviour. The "tennis coach" was one and the mum who wants her son to reinforce her own self-identity as being 'out there' by having a trans kid is another. Who else can remember the hippie days when some lost soul of a woman would proudly breastfeed a six year old? It wasn't a particularly uncommon sight. Unfortunately media have always exploited these extremes which inevitably makes them worse by locking people into bad ideas.
The real question is, if we want to "do something about it" and find a way to prevent parents from raising children outside the 'expected norms' the cure would likely be worse than the disease.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 25 2017 22:08 utc | 60

ps @#59 I've been referring to the united states of assholes in here (and the whiskey bar before that) as amerika for well over a decade and have no intention of changing before amerikans stop their butchery across the planet. Blame the 'deep state' or whatever other weak assed excuse takes yer fancy but most of us around the world know that amerika is full to the gunnels with worthless sociopathic assholes - otherwise they would have fixed it themselves long ago.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 25 2017 22:16 utc | 61

These sick ppl have lost the plot and we are supposed to champion it? WTF! My 4y/o son, found it hilarious to wear his mums hair ribbons and pretend he was his mum! He found it hilarious. We found it hilarious. He moved on to playing Sonic on his ipad and we just have a fond memory of this! Serious elements of Western society have lost the plot!

Posted by: Irshad | Feb 25 2017 22:24 utc | 62

Irshad @62--

Yes, we live in a time when kids aren't allowed to be kids, to play, to employ whimsical experiment while playing, to instead become consumers as soon as they can communicate desires. Fortunately, for now at least, such doesn't happen within every culture/society.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 25 2017 22:41 utc | 63

Debs @ 61 said:"but most of us around the world know that amerika is full to the gunnels with worthless sociopathic assholes - otherwise they would have fixed it themselves long ago."

LMFAO Debs..God, ain't it the truth...

Posted by: ben | Feb 25 2017 22:46 utc | 64

A friend of mine, a very, very smart and kindly family therapist with a degree in Early Childhood Development, recommends an article in last month's National Geographic which covers the issue and gives a summary of peer reviewed research.

Posted by: AantiSpin | Feb 25 2017 23:31 utc | 65

We walked past a tennis court complex and every morning would see a big grumpy bloke screaming at a 7 or 8 year old girl in Serbo-croat while he hit tennis balls at her demanding she hit them back.

How did you understand what was he screaming in 'Serbo-croat' if he was a foreigner to you?

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 25 2017 23:38 utc | 66

Purpose of such trash is to distract people from real issues, like reclaiming our currency from the oligarchs. What you see in the media is what the oligarchs WANT you to think about-- pure distraction. Bathrooms, personalities, personality struggles w Trump, fake news-- it's all trash. YOU decide what's important. Don't let them decide for you.

Posted by: Penelope | Feb 25 2017 23:56 utc | 67

Until recently the accepted spelling on here was amerika or (even more clever) amerikkka (get it? three ks like the clan)

The best spelling IMO is 'Murica'.
I also like 'nucular', 'iranium' and of course 'yuge'.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 25 2017 23:58 utc | 68

Penelope @67--

I'd endlessly second your comment if possible!

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2017 0:08 utc | 69

There is a real story here, because it's not just one or two crazy parents. It's not enough to say that there will always be outliers among parents. It's schools, doctors, psycotherapists, etc. It's institutions. An aggressive transgender agenda has already been institionalized in various forms. Surgeons who specialize in this type of surgery are pushing to make it happen even earlier:

And there is a strong element of social contagion. The same high school will suddenly have several teenage girls (often teenage girls who recently decided they were lesbians) decide that they are male. It's not just parents getting strange ideas, it's kids being immersed in social groups (often virtual ones) where there is pressure to join the other special transgender children.

I haven't gotten any links handy for much of the above, but poke around earlier entries on the blog linked to the site I already linked to.

Posted by: RudyM | Feb 26 2017 0:14 utc | 70

@64 ben.. i always enjoy debsisdead, but that comment you highlighted was one that i thought could be applied easily to most all the countries on the planet.. the big difference is that the usa has had a dominant role on the planet, whereas smaller countries, not so much.. but is it really different in all the other countries of the world? i understand why the usa gets singled out, but that statement applies to pretty well every country across the planet..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2017 0:19 utc | 71

I wonder if all of these chemicals which mimic estrogen, for example

- alkylphenols (intermediate chemicals used in the manufacture of other chemicals)
- 4-Methylbenzylidene camphor (4-MBC) (sunscreen lotions)
- bisphenol S, BPS (an analog of BPA)
- butylated hydroxyanisole, BHA (food preservative)
- dichlorodiphenyldichloroethylene (one of the breakdown products of DDT)

have something to do with it. We know that sex hormones in utero or at a young age can change a human being's genitalia. How about their gender identity. And, these chemicals are found in things as mundane as cash register receipts. Minute amounts can have very large effects.

Posted by: mischi | Feb 26 2017 0:36 utc | 72

@ hopehely | Feb 25, 2017 6:38:04 PM

RU serious? Perhaps I have knocked round the world a bit and visited Dalmatia when the locals considered themselves to be Dalmations first Yugoslavs second not Croatian "mainlanders" back when it wasn't the former Yugoslavia - just Yugoslavia the motherland many had never seen of a heap of my mates. There are a few Tarara in my whanau and I worked with a big mob of em in my first year at Uni in a big fishery so why not check out where they came from especially since way back then they all reckoned Tito was the best thing since sliced bread. People do travel u know and I picked up enough of this bully's rants to ascertain the language. It wasn't anything vicarious same thing every morning 5 days a week is pretty hard not to suss out.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 26 2017 0:36 utc | 73

@72 mischi.. i had a few friends back in the 80's swearing off the use of plastic - using it to carry food especially - saying that it was bad mojo for this same reason.. it is interesting thinking back on that.. maybe they were ahead of the curve?

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2017 1:02 utc | 74

Tom Perez wins vote to lead Democratic Party

Yves Smith "The Democrats double-down on failure"

Although repeatedly referred to as "Sander's faction", I don't think Ellison and others are not tied to Sanders, nor is Sanders their leader. (Maybe something of a spiritual leader in that he INADVERTENTLY demonstrated the strength of the progressive movement?). The pretense that Sanders is their leader allows for sheepdog Sanders to undermine the progressives by calling for 'unity'. In fact, Sander CONGRATULATED Perez after the vote (while calling for changes in a Party that JUST reaffirmed the status quo!) - despite KNOWING that Perez was elected to keep the Democrats as a money-grubbing Centrist Party.

Nomiki Konst of "The Young Turks" (TYT) has provided excellent coverage. In this interview with Tom Perez she deftly demonstrates Perez's claims of being the "Unity candidate" is bullshit. In a later video she revealed that the chair of the unity commission was a highly paid DNC independent consultant (essentially an Obama-Hillary loyalist). sexplained that Consultants that get millions of dollars from DNC have been lobbying for Perez. Y

Furthermore, Perez won partly because Ellison was smeared as anti-Semitic.

The Obama-Hillary Centrist Democratic Party is a Party of M-O-N-E-Y, pure and simple. 'Citizen's United' destroyed representative democracy. The Debate about whether the Democratic Party can be reformed is over (hopefully). It can NOT. It is as irredeemable as the system it serves.

IMO the best alternative is the Pirate Party (a form of direct democracy).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 1:05 utc | 75

@73 Debsisdead | Feb 25, 2017 7:36:55 PM

RU serious?

Yup. I am the native speaker of the language, I never met an Anglophone who can speak it, and I have been living among you for almost 1/4 of century (wow, time flies...).
That makes you very special in my book, way more so than those navel gazing trans maroons.
Do you remember what the guy was shouting?

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 26 2017 1:37 utc | 76

Lots of Americans misunderstand sexuality - they don't think in terms of biology (i.e. allowing children to develop fully and then to see what they are). For many gay people I've met when I lived in Los Angeles sexuality is like a cult or a religious club. You pick what you think you like - it's kind of a la carte behavior. They think biology and innate sexual instincts (i.e. sexual attraction between sexes, wanting to have kids etc) are irrelevant. It's a mix of religious background (any crazy idea is possible and real if you believe it and if you find other deluded people to share that delusion with) and selfish fake individualism (I can do whatever I feel like, if I put a liptstick on I transform into a woman etc). All based on confused lack of reality and lack of knowledge about our biology. Out of at least 100 of gay men I've met (some of them are very successful producers, directors, actors) - I don't know anyone who is actually happy. Or in love. Mostly they just have sex with strangers they never want to see again. They are pretty much all on drugs and anti-depressants and to be accepted in their 'religion' you must confirm to all their rules (be effeminate, slutty, submissive etc). In Serbia where I come from - it's the opposite. You are allowed to do whatever you want as long as you are not hurting others or showing your dick to children etc. Like religion, it's considered a private thing. And homosexuals there have much more sex and more meaningful interactions and are much happier. I think it's like that in Argentina, Italy etc also. Only in America and England - gayness is like some unhappy, bitter religion/cult. The way they approach children and their playing with dolls reflects that . They are lost and basically don't understand human nature because all they know is fear and shopping.

Posted by: tomo | Feb 26 2017 1:58 utc | 77

@tomo. Americans are very weird. I used to read the liberal blogs and laugh at the Red Staters who were in denial or weaving the strangest stories, but now I see liberals doing this. There's one guy who wants to build a hiding spot for his legal immigrant wife or girlfriend or whatever, like Anne Frank hiding from the frigging Nazis. There are economics professors who think that Clinton's problem with emails were due to anti-female prejudice and discrimination. Same woman thinks that Russia has intentions to invade Finland in the near future. It's like logic and rationality completed disappeared from the USA once Trump became the Republican candidate. I've never seen anything like it, although I am sure that people who lived through the era prior to WW2 might have. (I am not American, nor do I live there).

Posted by: mischi | Feb 26 2017 2:11 utc | 78

A few weeks ago I listened to an interview on a Pacifica station with a child psychologists who specialized in transgender children. I was expecting a lot of librul nonsense but was surprised by a rational discussion. She said that when parents brought in young children it is best to just let your child be a child and not try to discourage or accommodate transgender behavior. It was not that easy to diagnose young children. It sounded like she considered the parents as her primary patients in those cases.

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 26 2017 2:18 utc | 79

Intersex/transgender are very rare but real physical phenomena, that will be evident, usually physically but also behaviorally. Homosexuality is more common, but still pretty rare as an inherited, genetic phenomena. Nature. Later in life lots of people just develop non-standard sexual preferences. Nurture.

Medical historian Alice Dreger wrote a good book, Galileo's Middle Finger, about being armed with the more or less clear facts and then negotiating the often asinine but politically correct territory of sexual identity (and other topics). Like, for instance, that all homosexuality is inherited. Normal people don't care and respect all but denying the fact that some homosexuality is a choice is important politically to gays/lesbians/and-so-on.

Posted by: fairleft | Feb 26 2017 2:25 utc | 80

tomo at 77 and mischi 78:

Everything you said is true as far as I can tell, and I'm American and have lived there too much.

The putting on airs superiority of "I'm a homosexual," or "I'm a vegetarian" or whatever-the-f#ck. (Jeebus people if you're an upper class prig you're an upper class prig. No cure other than a loss of position and income.) And the entirely lost connection with reality, high on paranoid mainstream media hysteria, with former ostensible liberals recently cheering for a CIA soft coup cuz Trump is gonna kill us all!

Posted by: fairleft | Feb 26 2017 2:35 utc | 81

War on the alpha male gone full tilt -
taking no prisoners !

Posted by: denk | Feb 26 2017 2:36 utc | 82

I'd just like to point out that the Iranians are really not all that "librul" regarding gender. Take a homosexual, pressure/force them to change their gender through surgery and viola: Look ma! No homosexuals! I am all for pointing out that the popular and rabid hatred of Iran is nonsense, but there is more to their seeming accepting stance on transgenderism than meets the eye.

Posted by: Scylla | Feb 26 2017 3:01 utc | 83

mischi @72 & james @74--

You're more correct than you realize. Please read Our Stolen Future and visit their website, The Truth of the matter's been known for several decades now, but the focus is always on cure, not ceasing polluting the ecosphere!! And this covers hormone mimickers, not the entire spectrum of pollutants.

And if you haven't, The Secret History of Lead tells you who allowed children--and the rest of us--to be poisoned by lead via auto exhaust and the rationale used.

The best cure is to not poison!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2017 3:10 utc | 84

If kids are the issue, ever see the effects of depleted uranium exposure on the developing human fetus? It's been used all over Syria, just as it was in Iraq.

As little information on the dangers of the material has been shared with the Iraqi people, depleted uranium and depleted uranium-tainted metals are regularly sold for scrap metal and re-used for any numbers of purposes — including machinery parts, cookery implements and home furnishings. Children play in depleted uranium-contaminated fields, which presents a heightened risk of unintentional ingestion due to hand-to-mouth activity. Abandoned vehicles salvaged for metal present a particularly high risk, as depleted uranium dust could accumulate from depleted uranium munitions, without access to an active airflow to dissipate it.

Maybe the kids dying from cancer due to reckless use of such munitions are a more important topic than which bathroom they get to use?

Posted by: nonsense factory | Feb 26 2017 3:37 utc | 85

The excuse unerringly wailed back in one's face when one brings this up is, "But it takes better when you do it before puberty!" I think people are being trained to regard not only strangers, but friends and even family as though they are cartoon characters, entertainments... not real... not actually real kind of real... just meatspace extensions of everything else to watch.

Posted by: nines | Feb 26 2017 5:05 utc | 86

it's all to keep our minds off us terrorism worldwide. don't notice that the us is THE rogue, criminal, serial aggressor state dealing death, devastation, destruction and deceit worldwide ... no, they're actually 'spreading freedom'. 'spreading democracy'.

don't look out the window ... concentrate right here ... on the ball at the end of the string ... you are getting sleepy ...

Posted by: jfl | Feb 26 2017 5:10 utc | 87

I was searching for information on the Council on American–Islamic Relations (CAIR) and its relationship with the Democratic Party when I came across this tweet by the Oregon State University Pride Center. It promotes a talk by Zahra Billoo, director of the San Francisco chapter of the Council on American–Islamic Relations, on Islamophobia and the Muslim ban.

The Oregon State University Queer Resource Center naturally promotes transgender causes. From their Facebook page we can read a FAQ on the Withdrawal of Federal Guidance on Transgender Students published by the National Center for Transgender Equality or about the 6 Mistakes That Trans Allies Are Still Making.

Muslims nor CAIR are known for their friendliness to transsexual or LGBTQ+ causes. This is just an example of the kind of strategic political alliances that define the modern American Left. CAIR offers a deal, we will support your Progressive causes if you support our Muslim causes - all in the name of solidarity and identity politics.

The Muslim Brotherhood has been infiltrating Progressive groups and the Democratic Party for decades. Muslim Brotherhood influence on Washington has been stated as the reasons behind Hillary's disastrous wars of aggression of Libya and Syria. CAIR is claimed to be a front for the Muslim Brotherhood, Keith Ellison is claimed to be connected with CAIR.

The Democratic Party now revolves around diaspora politics ("you bomb my native country, I will bomb yours") and identity politics ("you bomb my native country, I will gaze your navel"). Tom Perez is unlikely to change that.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 26 2017 6:00 utc | 88


You nailed jfl. It's all about keeping our minds off terrorism. Some fucking broad writes an op-ed about her fucking kid and we're being buffaloed by fake news once again.

We're likely to be caught sleeping at the switch and miss the clues to some terrible plot to lay us all low because we're too busy wondering if this kid really wants to suck cock or not.

I guess it's like Dubya said, they hate our freedom.

Posted by: peter | Feb 26 2017 6:11 utc | 89

@ hopehely | Feb 25, 2017 8:37:49 PM
Well I don't claim to be able to speak it but I do remember (from when I hung fish in the smokehouse) the old bloke in charge who actually came from Dalmatia calling me glupo/gloopo? and liyeni often enough to remember what the words for stupid & lazy were. I have no idea what portion of the former Yugoslavia the man & his daughter emanated from but it didn't have the more guttural (that was how it seemed to me) accent that serbian border/customs blokes spoke on the train.
When I visited Yugoslavia, my wife at that time was German so she sort of knew what was up going through Slovenia since many Slovenes had German, but the few bits of Serbo-Croat I thought I knew were unintelligble to those guys so mostly the usual mixture of hand signs and loud english did the trick. When we went to Dalmatia (1986) 'daring' englanders had been going to the Croatian coast, some even to the islands, for quite a time so communication wasn't easy but it was possible.
All the 'Dallies' and Tarara of my age were 2nd or 3rd generation Kiwis, my cousin married a 2nd generation fella whose father told me his apocryphal story of how he ended up at the other side of the world. He was conscripted into the Austrian Army and made to fight in WW1 I was too young to understand that not everyone fought on the western front so I didn't ask him where - anyway he got a medal which he threw into the sea as soon as he got home then he and a couple of mates from his village decided to go to NZ. Immigration to Aotearoa was really strict nearly impossible if you weren't British except some bureaucrat somewhere had decided men from Dalmatia were ideally suited to the gum fields so they got entry on the basis they were going to dig kauri gum out of the swamps.

They generally dug gum until they had saved enough to start a business. A lot of Dallies got into fishing which they had done back home. In my cousin's case his Dad opened a quarry which was originally meant to supply stone for buildings but became a source of the coarse gravel (metal) for roads which he did OK out of. A few kiwi ww1 veterans had been given land up there which they tried to turn into sheep farms but Northland is really prone to drought so that was less successful. That meant that the Dallies either married Tangata Whenua or send back to the old country for a wife since there weren't very many single non-Maori women about.

A few Chinese and Indians were given residence in NZ, but AFAIK the people from Dalmatia were the only non-Brit europeans granted residency in large numbers before ww2. Not Slovenes, Macedonians or even other Croatians, just people from Dalmatia.
Or tho saying that my best friend at middle school was a kid who proudly said he was Croatian NOT from Dalmatia and when I suggested to his Dad that my cousin would be happy to take them to the 'Yugoslav' club & introduce them around he became very disconcerted - almost angry. My cousin who has to be one of the most well intentioned blokes I have ever known, had no clue why. Once settled in NZ, it seemed almost as though they took no further interest in news from the old country. The blokes at the fish factory would toast "Tito" once they got a few into them but that was about it. I had no idea why and my older brother who was quick to point the finger at a Latvian family for being probable war criminals never made a similar accusation about my mate's family although looking back now 'Dad' likely had a murky past.

The internet plus all the TV coverage in the 90's has changed that. Many prefer to be known as Croats rather than Dallies and there are no toasts to Tito.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 26 2017 6:31 utc | 90

@90 Debsisdead
Wow, fascinating story. Great read, I really enjoyed it. Learned about kauri gum, that is really interesting. When I saw the picture of it I thought it is some sort of amber but then it said the people chew it so I guess the stuff is not that old. :-)

the old bloke in charge who actually came from Dalmatia calling me glupo/gloopo? and liyeni often enough to remember what the words for stupid & lazy were.

Yes, that's right. Glup means dumb/stupid and lijen/lenj means lazy.
The name that Maoris gave to Dalmatians (Tarara) is hilarious. But it is true, they really have that rapid fire way of speaking. We from Pannonia speak much moooore sloooowly.
Many prefer to be known as Croats rather than Dallies and there are no toasts to Tito.

Nobody toasts to Tito anymore. XX century is long gone.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 26 2017 7:47 utc | 91

Its not a distraction from terrorism or war. Its a strategy for regaining POWER.

Obama-Hillary Centrists did what they had to do (dirty politics) to retain power over the DNC despite corruption and failure. The neolibcon Centrist sell-outs and bullshitters will NEVER give up control of the Democratic Party. They've been pretending to champion progressive causes so as to energize their base (women, immigrants, LGBT, etc.). They will continue to do so until they win back the WH.

Listen to Hillary's message to the DNC/Democratic Party faithful:

Resistance [from paid activists pretending to be a grassroots movement] plus persistence [no change in Centrist policy!] equals progress for our Party and our country.

"Unity" = fall in line behind the same corrupt establishment or STFU.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Citzens United destroyed representative government. It will be very difficult to restore a government OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people. One way toward that goal is via a form of direct democracy.

Check out the Pirate Party!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2017 7:50 utc | 92

Hyper specific microidentity microgendering of the population leads to extreme alienation and with that very easy ad targeting and easy political influencing/alienating.

Identity is not what you feel, especially when you're a dumb fucking kid, identity is what you do.

If someone is truly transgender let them take the dangerous medications after they're legal adults, because theres a huge risk of parents projecting their own desires on dumb kids and those kids being hormonally wrecked for life because their parent unconsciously wanted to be the really special mother of the trans kid, or just wanted to have a girl instead of a boy.

Kids are kids, let them be kids, don't medicate identity, it's fucking crazy

Posted by: Cresty | Feb 26 2017 8:42 utc | 93

b genuinely runs the full gambit; can't say I disagree with his assessment.
Carry on...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 26 2017 10:14 utc | 94

Although dirt-poor, I 'identify' as being a multi-millionaire, so someone better give me at least five million dollars, or I'll start screaming DISCRIMINATION and sue the government in court!

Posted by: Greg Bacon | Feb 26 2017 10:29 utc | 95

jfl | Feb 26, 2017 12:10:48 AM | 87

I guess it takes some time out of the illusion/matrix, to finally see the illusion/matrix for what it is.
It's why I left and every year since has proved me correct.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 26 2017 10:32 utc | 96

@ Posted by: jfl | Feb 26, 2017 12:10:48 AM | 87


The individual life consequences for those exploited in either, 'campaign' ... merely yet more, 'collateral'.

Posted by: Outraged | Feb 26 2017 11:22 utc | 97

This is the most nauseating thing I've ever seen at this site. Some halfway reasonable thoughts are mixed into a vicious smoothie with some really hateful stuff. There is no question at all that gender stereotyping is forced on children from the earliest age. This is the standard model of parenting. I've seen parents/grandparents freaking out over a spot of pink in a boy's baby blanket!!

I'm not in favor of parents recruiting their children to be transgender or forcing them to conform to gender stereotypes. How about for once in human history we let them explore their natures? I wish my parents had done so.

Posted by: paul | Feb 26 2017 12:26 utc | 98

Oh Yes! And give kids a loaded .38 and let them explore the trigger! Or let them wander into traffic and explore trauma! Or let them play with matches and explore fire!

Gosh, why didn't I think of that?

Posted by: Greg Bacon | Feb 26 2017 13:59 utc | 99

Greg Bacon | Feb 26, 2017 8:59:43 AM | 99

Yeah, I got a target .22 at 12; before that I played with matches and fire; before that I explored swamps, creeks, lakes, artesian springs, and frogs, turtles, snake's, tadpoles, and many of life's mysteries.
Sexuality was another adventure not messed with in my life by adults; I figured it all out by myself.
So, kindly take your stultified version of life, somewhere dark and dangerously secret, somewhere else.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 26 2017 14:18 utc | 100

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