Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 18, 2017

Elections In France - CIA Spies On Political Parties, NYT Claims "Russian" Interference

New York Times Editorial, February 18, 2017: Keeping the Kremlin’s Hands Off France’s Elections

With the United States engulfed in questions about Russia’s role in the 2016 presidential election, France is determined to head off any such meddling in its coming presidential election.

Wikileaks, February 16, 2017: CIA espionage orders for the 2012 French presidential election

All major French political parties were targeted for infiltration by the CIA's human ("HUMINT") and electronic ("SIGINT") spies in the seven months leading up to France's 2012 presidential election. The revelations are contained within three CIA tasking orders published today by WikiLeaks ...



On Monday Richard Ferrand, the director of Emmanuel Macron’s campaign, claimed that the Russians had unleashed “hundreds and even thousands” of hacking attempts against Mr. Macron, and that RT and Sputnik, government-controlled news outlets, are spreading fake news, as they were said to have done during the American election cycle. The stories about Mr. Macron range from allegations that he is engaged in a secret extramarital gay affair to accusations that he used state funds to pay for foreign travel.

Marine Le Pen, the far-right National Front candidate, who has received Russian financing, is expected to win the most votes in a crowded field in the first round of voting, on April 23.


The espionage order for "Non Ruling Political Parties and Candidates Strategic Election Plans" which targeted Francois Holland, Marine Le Pen and other opposition figures requires obtaining opposition parties' strategies for the election; information on internal party dynamics and rising leaders; efforts to influence and implement political decisions; support from local government officials, government elites or business elites; views of the United States; efforts to reach out to other countries, including Germany, U.K., Libya, Israel, Palestine, Syria & Cote d'Ivoire; as well as information about party and candidate funding.


France is wise to take steps now, though it is too early to know whether they will have much effect. Mr. Ayrault was absolutely right, however, when he stated on Wednesday what should be obvious to all democratic governments: “After what happened in the United States, it is our responsibility to take all measures to ensure that the integrity of our democratic process is respected.” At stake, he said, is “our democracy, our sovereignty and our national independence.”

(For the record: In 2014 the National Front party of Marine Le Pen took out a regular loan from the First Czech Russian Bank registered in Moscow. This after French banks had rejected all loan requests by the party. On July 1 2016 the FCRB's license was revoked by the Russian Central Bank over other issues.)

I agree with the NYT that "Ayrault is absolutely right" to take steps now. Those steps will hopefully prevent further U.S. interference in French elections which the NYT editors so blatantly ignore.

It should also help to dismantle the stupid assertions that some slanted reporting by Russian news outlets, in contrast to completely faked "news" by the NYT, could somehow influence voter decisions in France or anywhere else.

Posted by b on February 18, 2017 at 11:05 UTC | Permalink


Its pretty obvious thar Operation Mockingbird
aka CIA is running media. The psyops that msm/cia/establishment is running against US/EU populations is classic propaganda,; causing a hateful population against Russia.

" Operation Mockingbird was allegedly a large-scale program of the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that, beginning in the early 1950s, attempted to manipulate news media for propaganda purposes, and funded student and cultural organizations and magazines as front organisations."

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 18 2017 11:50 utc | 1

Be factual or lie, tell it often enough, and it's part of the story. Did I imagine that the Government through some agency recently inaugurated a department of disinformation - as in fake news - or not? Is this a try to mask a possible coup within the government, or just plain B.S. There certainly seems to be something going on since Clinton lost to Trump. Sore losers?

Posted by: Eugene | Feb 18 2017 12:48 utc | 2

Since George Washington, the primary process of propaganda has been misdirection ..... make you take actions not in your best interest and blame others for your miserable life. NYT is a key element of US Government and elitist propaganda. A fake news organization writing fake stories about their own fake news!! How more fake can they get?

Posted by: ger | Feb 18 2017 13:15 utc | 3

I thought wow, how does b do it, come up with one bulls eye after another, week after week, for over a decade now. Figured it out, he just reads the news. They are so in your face with the dis-info that all it takes to detect the crap they are selling is to be prepared to click on MSM "news" links.

Thank you b, putting events into context is one of the most important aspects to keeping it real, for want of a better term.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 18 2017 13:23 utc | 4

France officialy enters the neo-Feudal era!

Posted by: nmb | Feb 18 2017 13:32 utc | 5

Jesus, like "ger" said above,
They use fake news to accuse other parties of fake news!

Nowhere have Russia started stupid gay accusation!

Trump is sooo right on the sick MSM propaganda memes.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 18 2017 13:54 utc | 6

The result of this fake news:
RUSSIA TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE Pence assurances European allies of 'unwavering' commitment to NATO

Why did Trump ever hire this Pence idiot?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 18 2017 14:23 utc | 7

@7 "Pence said the U.S. would demand that Russia honor a 2015 peace deal agreed upon in Minsk, Belarus, to end violence in eastern Ukraine between government forces and Russia-backed separatists.". Correct me if I am wrong, but are we (US) signatories to the Minsk agreement. And, who is perpetrating the violence? Idiot is a mild descriptive for Pence.....

Posted by: georgeg | Feb 18 2017 14:41 utc | 8

God, b. You've turned this blog into a cesspool of Russian propaganda. Sad!

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 18 2017 14:57 utc | 9

Anonymous 1
Dr. Udo Ulfkotte said as much from the perspective of a German journalist/editor.

Manipulating the media and covert support of opposition make for more subtle regime change efforts. An independent media is a noble goal but difficult to achieve. It's up to the alt-media to report the other side of the story or at least read between the lines and provide context to the MSM rhetoric/propaganda.

Posted by: Curtis | Feb 18 2017 15:03 utc | 10

Fact is, Pence just reiterated what Mattis and Tillerson had told the Europeans the day before.

There's a disconnect between what Trump is telling the beliebers and what his crew is doing.

Posted by: peter | Feb 18 2017 15:05 utc | 11

@slothrop | Feb 18, 2017 9:57:20 AM | 9

sorrie, please take your god and anti Russian comments elsewhere.

Posted by: OSJ | Feb 18 2017 15:29 utc | 12

Senator McCain is spoofed by Russian comedians.

[2/17/17] For the second time in a week, a Russian comedian has released a prank call with a top member of the U.S. Congress.

“Hello Mr. Prime Minister, how are you?” Arizona Sen. John McCain told a man known as Vovan, who was posing as Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman.

After exchanging pleasantries, the prankster said he wanted to talk about U.S. sanctions on Russia.

McCain told him he was sending a letter to President Trump, urging him to send “lethal weapons” to Ukraine to fight Russia.

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 15:30 utc | 13

b, Another tremendous post.

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 15:32 utc | 14

b, good point on Russian reporting at the end.
The intel report released to Americans had one part hacking but another part was RT reporting. But this is not a TV/Cable media network. It has no print outlet in the US. That leaves internet only reporting (and re-reporting which RT does not have like AP, NYT, etc). It has very little scope in the US and yet the intel report put a lot of blame on RT reporting for being anti-HRC and pro-DJT. (as if the MSM doesn't have enough bias)

Posted by: Curtis | Feb 18 2017 15:44 utc | 15

Given Pence and Tillerson's statements about Ukraine and their continuing to believe US policy lies over the entire debacle, Putin's recent speech at the FSB has crucial meaning as fleshed out in the linked article,

Talk about Blowback! If done, it would be a great example of geopolitical judo!

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 18 2017 15:51 utc | 16

Wow, McCain is very trusting person, you just call him and tell you are prime minister and that's it, you are through, no check, no verification. Well I guess he receives unsolicited phone calls from foreign ministers 24/7.
Doesn't he have the caller ID on his phone to see the number? Ukraine and Russia have different country codes.
Now, OTOH, if those Russian pranksters spoofed the number to appear as from Kiev, then those jokers are a bit more sophisticated than the ordinary guys.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 18 2017 16:00 utc | 17

US Senator Lindsay Graham spoofed by Russian comedians

US Congressional Representative Maxine Waters spoofed by Russian comedians

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 16:03 utc | 18

Fellow barflies. I am fully aware that the Russian comedian videos featuring McCain, Graham and Waters could be Russian Intelligence constructs. If they are that makes them even more relevant in that it displays Russian technical expertise of the highest order. Irregardless they show a sense of humor that is very human.

Just me opinion

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 16:23 utc | 19

thanks b.. it will be interesting to see the results of the french election come mid april and may..macron seems to be the candidate representing the (conservative) banking industry and corporations, lol.. the media says he is the leading candidate, just like they were telling everyone hillary was going to win... i am hopeful of egg on the msm's face... couldn't happen to a better group of liars..

Posted by: james | Feb 18 2017 17:27 utc | 20

b is right about the NYT, as usual. They're pitiful. So pitiful in fact that I wonder if calling them out for their lies is not much different than all my friends who constantly carp and complain about Trump every day. I mean, it is different in that there are factual grounds to dispute the NYT and WaPo lies every day while most Trump attacks focus on baseless accusations rather than truth (which is not to say there are not legitimate reasons to oppose Trump on many issues, and I do).

In this world of lies the truth teller is a lonely man.

Posted by: WorldBLee | Feb 18 2017 17:27 utc | 21

@20, @21
Those people are not liars, they are bullshitters.
The difference between lie and BS is that a lie has truth value (negative, false) but bullshit does not have truth value at all. The difference is important, because while truth can trump a lie, it is ineffective against BS. You trump BS with bigger, yuger, better, stronger, richer bullshit. And boy do we have the champion, the genius, the BS Grand Master. God bless him.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 18 2017 17:53 utc | 22

Here is the REAL issue for those USians:

"How will this affect the NBA, the NFL, the NCAA championship? Will it raise prices at Wal-Mart (or my other preferred big box)?"

If the answer is that it won't the typical USian will say it doesn't matter. Thus,the Deep State will just do what it always does to prolong misery.

Posted by: C del Toro | Feb 18 2017 18:07 utc | 23

@Juan Moment how does b do it, come up with one bulls eye after another, week after week, for over a decade now. Figured it out, he just reads the news.
Ooch, someone detected my secret. What am I going to do now?

@slothrop - good to see you back.

@all - Pence/Trump on Russia - simple bad guy/good guy play.

The whole "bad Russia" thingy is in the end only about one issue. Money for the weapon industry and safe jobs for the military brass. Everything else are bad side effects of that dangerous but very profitable play.

A good Andrew Cockburn piece on that at Harpers:
Game On - East vs. West, again

Posted by: b | Feb 18 2017 18:21 utc | 24

Europe is as stupidly paranoid of Russia as KSA and Israel are of Iran and the U.S. does nothing but enable and fuel this fanaticism and fear propaganda hyperbole for the deep-state war machine. If only Europeans realized how enslaved they really are under the Zio-Anglo empire's financial hegemony.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 18 2017 18:27 utc | 25

The whole "bad Russia" thingy is in the end only about one issue. Money for the weapon industry and safe jobs for the military brass. Everything else are bad side effects of that dangerous but very profitable play.

Playing dangerous games in order to have safe job is beyond crazy. Their risk compass is totally out of whack. A person who fears more of losing his job than of losing his life is either imbecile, insane or bit of both.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 18 2017 18:44 utc | 26

Granted the French have a longstanding revulsion for voting for the National Front, particularly in the second round, but things are different now because "centrists" like the fop Macron, or his Anglo forefather Tony Blair, are so completely discredited in the eyes of the majority. It is like U.S. Democrats fruitlessly hitting the reboot button with the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer still sitting at the keyboard.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 18 2017 18:48 utc | 27

Regarding the collaboration of the CIA and media within the Outlaw US Empire, Angry Arab had this to say: "The US media's current alliance with the intelligence community and with tech companies is a scary scenario and is more threatening to democracy than Donald Trump. I have never seen the lousy American liberals being more undemocratic than recently."

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 18 2017 19:38 utc | 28

@22 hopehely.. fair enough... so basically it's a fight between the msm bullshit and trump's.. i hope trump wins.. the msm slings dirt on a regular basis, with no end in sight... the cia feeding the msm to undermine trump doesn't help.. for me it's about the military and financial industry profiting off war and the constant threat of war.. seems like that's who the cia and the msm are working for.. i don't have the same impression on trump at this point... i hope he succeeds.. the fact he is challenging them is very positive.. i thought his talk at the press conference was masterful.. i like fighters and he's a good verbal fighter..

thanks for the many good comments from others..

Posted by: james | Feb 18 2017 20:05 utc | 29

thanks for the link @24 b..

Posted by: james | Feb 18 2017 20:08 utc | 30

If Le Penn wins, she will be submitted to the same treatment as Trump with accusations that he is was Russia candidate.
If he looses, then she was not!

Posted by: virgile | Feb 18 2017 21:01 utc | 31

The Deutsche-Wirtschafts-Nachrichten (DWN) has been under attack by politicians in Europe for reporting the truth. DWN editor Michael Maier has sent a sharp protest to the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker. The EU had accused DWN of spreading Russian propaganda with a fake report. Anyone who disagrees to the politics of the EU is attacked. This assault upon real news is becoming really very bad. The USA is just off the charts in how the media is twisting everything possible and appears to be egging on World War III. Any compromise Trump would reach with Putin is being characterized as pay-back for undermining Hillary. ABC, CNN, CBS, NBC want war perhaps for their ratings.

The mainstream media in the United States is on board 100% trying to undermine Trump. In Europe, the corrupt media is trying to support the EU and pretend Merkel is still popular.

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 21:04 utc | 32

The beast is in full display, fangs barred, ready to attack anyone who dare stray from the official 'Group Think' about Russia, Trump, the American economy, al CIA Duh, etc.

Hopefully, this will wake Americans up, but first you have to pry them from their 55" HDTV, and their large bag of potato chips and Lite Beer, after all, gotta watch that weight!

Posted by: Greg Bacon | Feb 18 2017 21:07 utc | 33

"The EU has circulated a paper containing a clumsy counterfeit about a DWN article and other manipulations. Bloomberg and The Nation are also accused of operating propaganda for Russia. The goal is obviously the intimidation of critical media. We need the support of our readers.

Help to secure the journalistic independence of German economic news in the long term"

please note Google translation from German to English

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 18 2017 21:30 utc | 34

French have a choice between the bad and the worse. With LePen in charge they'll have fundamental economic reset which is vital but will be very painful for awhile - yet at least France will survive as the homeland for French people and French culture . With Macron's victory they'll get the first Arab-African president (in the same way as Bill Clinton was the "first black President"), who will keep economy muddling through on endless borrowing, but on whose watch France as we knew it from books and movies, and which is in steady retreat already, will finally disappear forever.
I am sure Russians can live with both outcomes. The French can't.

Posted by: telescope | Feb 18 2017 22:42 utc | 35

@telescope | Feb 18, 2017 5:42:03 PM | 35

Agreed 100%. If LePen win and without UK (Frexit & Brexit) France must reset her economy. Angela Merkel the next Hitler of Germany if she survive the coming election.

Good luck b...

Posted by: OSJ | Feb 18 2017 23:00 utc | 36

@b 24

Nah...that's a bit too simple.
Russia is the #1 strategic geopolitical enemy of the US/UK, because it commands the same strategic resources. Europe and China have the complementary resources. It's the age-old story of 'sea power vs. land power' - in the long run, the land power always wins.

And then, it's just that accumulation has reached a dead end, there is nowhere left to expand (and reap profits). This calls for 'creative destruction' of some kind, which usually means a big war. :-( Good news: There are alternatives.

French elections are more than two months away. A lot can happen till then, like Macron stumbling into some scandal or Hamon and Melenchon joining forces...but in the end, it all boils down to 'everything but Le Pen'. She would be a disaster not just for France, but for all of Europe.

Posted by: smuks | Feb 18 2017 23:19 utc | 37

Attention beliebers!

The Trumpster just promised safe zones in Syria

Posted by: peter | Feb 18 2017 23:22 utc | 38

"Safe zone" is just another moniker for a "no-fly zone". But Russians will never agree to any slice of Syrian territory being closed to the Russian aircraft. All Trump's promises can't change that reality. Besides, Saudis are broke. With these oil prices, they have no money for a low-end toilet paper, let alone safe zones, that, according to Trump, they are supposed to pay for. If eventually there are any "safe zones", they will be inside Jordan and Turkey. Just serving as reprocessing centers for ex-jihadis heading to a demographically-challenged Europe (which has insatiable appetite for new warm bodies).

Posted by: telescope | Feb 19 2017 0:15 utc | 39

sorry for the repeat comment... if anyone is going to offer safe zones, how about starting with the usa inner cities? start at home before branching out, lol... i can see it now.. a 'no gun' zone, agreed to be smith and weston and the nra.. wait, better check to see if they have shares in that company first, lol..

31 virgile... exactamondo..

Posted by: james | Feb 19 2017 0:22 utc | 40

What can I say. Pure McCarthyism.

Concoct a shocking but possible story a big lie with no shred of evidence and put it up on the front page with fake news headline that contradict the text and its conclusions.
It works like a charm. Not this time.

Some still are picking up a the false narrative and lies that this is all about Russian influence.

In fact it is not even about that, nothing even close to it.

And certainly it is not about suppose ulterior motivation driven propaganda of “external” [Russian] influence on the US and western political process via network of independent websites or state media outlets, knowing well that American and western (EU)political process for long decades is bought and sold by foreigners namely Israelis and their extortionist outfit AIPAC, as well as Saudis, EU, Japan even China and more buying American/EU politicians wholesale every elections even by that pushing West into senseless wars and enormous expenditures.

Let's not be fooled by such a straw-man arguments.

It is all about new McCarthyism, new campaign of terrors and accusation, alienation of the journalists from their readers under cloud of criminality, spying and FBI investigation against those who do not peddle official narratives who are not buying utter nonsense and who do not draw absurd conclusions based on lies and innuendos without any shred of evidence.

All independent medial journalists and readers must unite and must drown this puny voice of paranoia perpetuated by MSM, NYT or Wapo in the ocean of sanity, humanity and reason.

Posted by: Kalen | Feb 19 2017 0:32 utc | 41

Is it just me or has anyone else noted that President Trump's appointees are mainly retired 'flag officers'?

flag officer. A term applied to an officer holding the rank of general, lieutenant general, major general, or brigadier general in the US Army, Air Force or Marine Corps or admiral, vice admiral, or rear admiral in the US Navy or Coast Guard.

Is the Pentagramagon making a move on the CIA and their Globalist stooges at State?

Stay tuned.

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 19 2017 0:40 utc | 42

Saturday Night entertainment February 18, 2017

The background music for today The World according to Ozz (remastered)

Posted by: ALberto | Feb 19 2017 0:43 utc | 43

The same treatment as Trump? Interesting, didn't know that French MSM are as infected with russophobia as the North American one.
If M. Le Pen likes Russia, she should be openly and proudly pro-Russian and blast anyone who dares to criticize her for it. If is OK to be pro-American, it's OK to be pro-Russian too.

Posted by: hopehely | Feb 19 2017 0:49 utc | 44

definitive article about Flynn
how he was an expert killer in Iraq and then Afghanistan under McChrystal
fascinating to learn why he is so berserk about Iran
and his relationship with fellow Iran demonizer Ledeen
(did you know Ledeen's daughter worked for Flynn in Afghanistan?)
Flynn even claimed that the attack on Benghazi consulate was by Iran!

Posted by: mauisurfer | Feb 19 2017 1:20 utc | 45

nmb@5: Thanks for the link> An excerpt:

"It's indeed unbelievable how François Hollande and his cabinet are devoted to their masters, the big banks and corporations. A week after Bastille Day through which people are celebrating the end of Monarchy and Feudalism, and all these things conquered by the majority since then, the "Socialists" in France became those who decided to take them back without shame. They exhibited absolute determination to pass the anti-labor bill without even thinking the political cost."

Has anyone noticed that the neo-feudalists are making gains globally, under the guise of "austerity"?

Posted by: ben | Feb 19 2017 2:23 utc | 46

@ Posted by: mauisurfer | Feb 18, 2017 8:20:38 PM | 45

Respectfully, definitive ? Would regard it as an unsubtle amalgam hit piece. Unsurprising why Hersh is no longer at the New Yorker.

The 'line' they follow now in the articles published in the New Yorker, fully supports the 5-Eyes/MSM 'narrative' ... might as well be CNN, especially the last linked article.

Trump’s Flailing Foreign Policy Bewilders the World

Donald Trump and the Enemies of the American People

Inside Trump’s Surreal Press Conference

Posted by: Outraged | Feb 19 2017 2:49 utc | 47

Obama: "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"

A disrobed Statue of Liberty comes to mind.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19 2017 3:56 utc | 48

outraged 47
did you know about Ledeen's daughter?
did you know Flynn surfed?
can you name a more definitive article about Flynn?
if so, please link
you dislike the article so much, perhaps you could enumerate the errors it contains, so far = 0

Posted by: mauisurfer | Feb 19 2017 4:15 utc | 49


There is already a safe zone in Syria - behind Syrian government lines!

Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 19 2017 6:26 utc | 50

Hey Krollchem at 50, try to keep up with the Trumpster. He's moved Putin off the front page and he will be the decider.

Hey beliebers, were you paying any attention to the Donald at his rally? He really tore the press a new arsehole, that's great huh? Somebody finally told those bastards where to get off. Now we can get down to some real government.

Trump instructed that Kelly guy to begin drawing up plans for task forces to aid the police. You see, the police are in a really bad way and nobody has been helping them out. The bad people have been able to do whatever they want and nobody gives a fuck. They just laugh at the police. No more. There will be armed units there to back them up from here on in. All the bad guys are fucked. Beliebers will be fine. As long as you don't look Mexican. You will soon get used to the convoys.

Another thing, those fucking liberals and lying MSM cocksuckers having being trying to say that the climate is changing. The Chinese say the same thing so you know it's bullshit. Not to worry. The Donald has cut all the energy outfits loose. No more bogus regs. They will blowing the tops off mountains in West Virginia in no time. Coal is back baby. And if anybody starts pissing and moaning about the watershed it's up to us beliebers to put them in their place.

I forget what he said about the rest of the world. Something about going to war with ISIS and establishing safe zones in Syria, so no Islamists come to the US. He feels bad that the beliebers were counting on peace with Russia but it's strictly business, they're just going to have to hang.

So Krollchem, my man,don't be too sure about Dr Assad. I hope he didn't let his license lapse.

Posted by: peter | Feb 19 2017 7:09 utc | 51

Macron seeks better relations with Moscow

Then french intelligence changed him....

Posted by: ripz | Feb 19 2017 8:40 utc | 52

Hmm…this is just the usual low-level SPY BS. It isn’t infiltration (the word sounds edgy and I suppose SIGINT is also cool… ) but it simply requesting ordinary, pedestrian info about what is going on in France politically, as all Gvmt. do all the time. In fact asking for it looks supremely ignorant, clueless and weak!

In 2012 (note this is old-news) anything one wanted to know about topics in the posted list, was mostly or entirely available on the internet, party platforms, funding, rising figures, views of the US, etc. All you need is three people who read French with fast internet connections, one extra to collate. Or just one “France expert” - maybe the Ambassador? (Oops.) It is hardly ‘interference’ in F elections.

So just part of the useless fakelorum US PTB/inner circuit, shunting money around to ‘operatives’ ..

Storm in a tea-cup.

hello slothrop!

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 19 2017 13:37 utc | 53

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 19, 2017 8:37:57 AM | 53

I agree, but I suppose there is more to come.

The question on resentment of Germany's exports in 2012 is interesting.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19 2017 14:00 utc | 54

Talking about political interference...
Tony B Liar seems to have been taking lessons in Public Relations from Bibi. I saw a TV News item yesterday showing Phony Tony on a podium announcing his intention to 'educate' Brits and persuade them that Brexit is a bad idea.
Considering the friction between the demographic which voted for Brexit, and the demographic represented by Mr B Liar, his stance stands a good chance of becoming the Kiss Of Death for the anti-Brexit crowd.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 19 2017 15:06 utc | 55

The severe punishment Volkswagon incurred may have been a hint for Germany to keep on keeping in line - go along to get along - and stay in good graces with the USA juggernaut.

Posted by: fast freddy | Feb 19 2017 15:14 utc | 56

The US run a trade deficit against China, Japan, Germany, Mexico and Canada in that order.

From 1998 - the time of Bill Clinton - The consequences of trade deficits

Nothing happened.

I guess the US are too big to fail. But obviously, this has a depressing effect on any US industry with products that get imported.

VW and Audi deserve what they get for management stupidity.
Their cars are very good if you don't buy Diesel. However, you cannot trust their claims on the amount of petrol needed per 100 miles either.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19 2017 16:39 utc | 57

good article on the topic of germany and the us relations from a few years ago..
Germany and the U.S. Empire (Pt. 1)
The Volkswagen scandal

Posted by: james | Feb 19 2017 17:12 utc | 58


VW and Audi deserve what they get for management stupidity.
Their cars are very good if you don't buy Diesel. However, you cannot trust their claims on the amount of petrol needed per 100 miles either.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19, 2017 11:39:24 AM | 57"

As the lucky owner of a VW Transporter I can assure you that VW diesels are very good indeed. Better than any other diesel vehicles on the market. The VW diesel engines beat all other diesels, no contest. Any one that has ever compared a VW diesel with ANY other diesel engine made by the other manufacturers can confirm this. The irony is that despite all the negative press regarding VW emissions cheating software they still make the cleanest and best diesels on the market today.

" However, you cannot trust their claims on the amount of petrol needed per 100 miles either."
You must not be very good at basic math either. The readouts I get for l/100km are spot on.

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19 2017 17:47 utc | 59
EU heavyweights France and Germany gear up for national elections this year, local media, pollsters, and mainstream parties are scuffling to understand the ever-growing support for their respective extreme-right parties, the National Front and Alternative for Germany.
Befuddled after a year with Donald Trump beating the political odds to take the Oval Office and the Brits voting to split from the European Union, observers seek an explanation for the recent slant towards the extreme right. A post-factual era has been announced. Over night, it seems, large portions of the global electorate lost the capacity to think rationally about politics.
From a cognitive science perspective, this hurriedly devised explanation is off target. It rests on the premise that until recently, people derived their attitudes from rational, objective considerations of political facts.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 19 2017 18:19 utc | 60

peter @ 51: Thanks for the bit of humor. LOL!

Posted by: ben | Feb 19 2017 18:54 utc | 61

In my business I had 5 trucks (gvw = 18,000 lbs), all diesel, and the best 3 were all Japanese. The best was made by UD, which has for many years been the leader in diesel technology. The Isuzus were also excellent, often Isuzu diesel engines are imported by GM and sold in their trucks. Sometimes Isuzu trucks arrive in USA with no nameplate, and the distributor attaches his choice of Isuzu or GM decals.

Posted by: mauisurfer | Feb 19 2017 20:15 utc | 62

You're talking commercial trucks (gvw = 18,000 lbs)

I'm talking consumer vehicle engines

truck diesel engines ≠ consumer vehicle engines
Apples and oranges

VW were prosecuted regarding their consumer diesel engines

but even still, emmisions and consumption are what I'm talking about, and I doubt that the engines you are talking about can show better fuel-consumption or emissions figures than the VW consumer diesel engines

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19 2017 20:31 utc | 63

I don't know where you live. But around here VW/Audi are far more expensive to buy and maintain than Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia. Also, mechanics need a whole range of special tools to work on Vw/Audi, such tooling is very expensive, so owners are forced to the dealers that charge at least twice as much for any given maintenance or repair.
My neighbor is German, she is very happy with her VW diesel, but it was given to her. She would never have bought it herself, and cannot afford to take it to the dealer for maintenance/repair.

Posted by: mauisurfer | Feb 19 2017 20:55 utc | 64

Oh I agree German vehicles are generally more expensive to maintain than Japanese vehicles. The dealers of German-marques charge exorbitant amounts for service, parts etc. This holds true no matter where in the world one lives.

There are plenty of VWs where I live, so there are plenty of perfectly competent non-dealer mechanics available to choose from, who charge no more for their work than do non-dealer mechanics for other vehicle makes. The VW I drive, 11 years old when I bought it, has so far (2 years) needed nothing but normal consumables (Oil-changes, filters tyres etc) .

The main competitor, a Renault, would at equivilant milage and age, have needed at the very least, new front shocks and drive shaft by this stage.

BUT: that's not the point under discussion.

For fuel economy and emissions levels, the VW diesels out perform all the others, at least in the 2.0 to 2.5 litre range of engine size. And when it comes to TDI's in that range, the VW tdi is more reliable than any other I know of, and I've driven a few. So overall, provided you don't go to a dealer for every service, the VW works out pretty cheap to service, when calculated over its lifetime

If you can afford the initial outlay, and have a decent mechanic who doesn't charge you an arm-and-a-leg, then a VW is a better investment than most other makes, as overall it requires less spent on servicing over its lifetime compared to equivalents from its main competitors.

Which is why so many people buy them . . . .

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19 2017 21:30 utc | 65

@ Posted by: Noirette | Feb 19, 2017 8:37:57 AM | 53

Yes, in isolation it's routine collection tasking, however, it gets interesting when you then consider what priority & resources/methods may have been assigned to the collection task ... recall the public exposure of interception of Merkel's phone, etc ?

Also of more interest when contrasted re the hypocrisy of the endless reporting of the myths of Evil Russkie Putin Demon-Head election hacking that never was ...

Slothrop! Howdy ;)

Posted by: Outraged | Feb 19 2017 21:59 utc | 66

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19, 2017 4:30:00 PM | 65

Real World and official fuel consumption of popular European cars

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19 2017 22:46 utc | 67


Nice try, but your attempt to provide some proof, while laudable in its aim I'm sure, is a complete failure in execution.

Where in that document does it discuss emissions and fuel-consumption from VW Diesel engines (or indeed ANY Diesel engine) specifically?

Where in that document does it compare with other competitor diesel engine manufacturers, emissions and fuel-consumption from VW Diesel engines specifically?

All that pdf shows is that you can't rely on ANY manufacturers figures.

It certainly does not show that VW are the most unreliable, which is what you were implying.

In fact it is impossible to learn anything about Diesel engines, and VW diesel engines specifically, from that pdf because it does not tell you anything about Diesel engines specifically, which if you had bothered to read it, you would have known before you posted it here..

It is a comparison of all engines, lumped in together, not a comparison of Diesel engines from different manufacturers, which is what you would need to produce if you were going to produce evidence for what you earlier claimed.

The word "diesel" is mentioned a paltry 3 times in the document as a whole

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19 2017 23:34 utc | 68

PS but actually even using your "all engine-types lumped in together" comparison data, my point still stands, because when comparing similar vehicles, especially those most likely to actually be fitted with Diesel engines eg: VW Passat vs Skoda Octavia - both "mid-range" vehicles, the VW wins by a country mile on emissions, and ties on consumption.

Given that the VW is a better-built vehicle and, I know from experience having driven both, that its a much better car performance-wise to drive than the Octavia, the VW wins out overall.

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19 2017 23:43 utc | 69

Posted by: T5 | Feb 19, 2017 6:34:17 PM | 68
"VW and Audi deserve what they get for management stupidity.
Their cars are very good if you don't buy Diesel. However, you cannot trust their claims on the amount of petrol needed per 100 miles either."

I did say petrol.

From my experience with small cars Toyota's consumption is best.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19 2017 23:45 utc | 70

253, noirette, '... simply requesting ordinary, pedestrian info about what is going on in France politically ... All you need is three people who read French with fast internet connections, one extra to collate. Or just one “France expert” - maybe the Ambassador?'

ah, but we americans are all strange visitors from another planet ... who came to earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men ... And who ... fight a never ending battle for truth, justice and the American way. human languages? we don't need no stinkin' human languages.

'In fact asking for it looks supremely ignorant, clueless and weak!'

Posted by: jfl | Feb 19 2017 23:53 utc | 71

"I did say petrol"

Yes you did, but the document you provided as "proof" showed that the "offical vs real world" discrepancy exists with ALL manufacturers, and is not limited to VW as you were implying.

But you also did say "their cars are good if you don't buy diesel" which I know for a fact is incorrect, especially when compared to other diesel-engined vehicles from competing manufacturers, and which we can all see for ourselves, was a statement not at all supported by the document you presented as "proof."

Posted by: T5 | Feb 20 2017 0:08 utc | 72

The irony is that despite all the negative press regarding VW emissions cheating software they still make the cleanest [consumer] diesels on the market today.

Posted by: T5 | Feb 20 2017 0:12 utc | 73


Thus far the French election appears to be more crazy than the recent US election.

The mainstream candidates Dominique Strauss-Kahn, François Hollande, Alain Juppé, Manuel Valls, Arnaud Montebourg and Nicolas Sarkozy fell off the bus early:
(1) Dominique Strauss-Kahn was tripped up by an arrest that brought new meaning to “maid in NY”
(2) François Hollande was such a fool that his ratings were below double digits and but rose a couple of points when he was discovered wandering off to bang his mistress.
(3) Alain Juppé was disqualified by his high level of corruption. In 2004, “A Nanterre court on Friday gave Juppé an 18-month suspended sentence and banned him from holding elected office for a decade, finding him guilty of using Paris taxpayers’ money to pay the salaries of full-time staff from Mr Chirac’s previous party, the RPR. (Les Républicains)”
(4) Manuel Valls, despite, or perhaps because of his fiercely pro-Israel stance along with his connection with fellow socialist Hollande was rejected by the Socialists. He is blamed for Hollande's controversial labor reforms.
(5) Arnaud Montebourg, famous for his romantic liaisons and his advocacy of re-industrialization of France was also rejected by the socialists for lack of name recognition.
(6) Nicolas Sarkozy lost out due to multiple corruption investigations against him as well as the sour taste among the French from the Libya war genocide that he lead.

This mas left François Fillon (Les Républicains), Emmanuel Macron (his new political movement entitled “En marche), Benoît Hamon (Socialist), Jean Luc Mellenchon (Parti de Gauche) and Marine LePen (Front National)

(1) François Fillon is a globalist, like Macron, and also very corrupt. Le Canard enchaîné has corrected its previous mistake and now claims that his wife Penelope Fillon earned 831,440 euros for work she doesn’t remember doing. He supports lower taxes for corporations, drastic cuts in social welfare and lower health insurance benefits. He also supports (supported?) removing Russian sanctions and as a practicing Catholic opposes overthrowing Assad in order to help support embattled Christians in Syria.

(2) Emmanuel Macron held the lead until last week. That was until some Russian magazines started accusing him of being a closet homosexual” (who cares in France!) was simply gossip.
For the real dirt on Macron see:
Turns out that Macron like Pompidou was a director of Banque Rothschild. It was Pompidou who staged an insider revolt against Charles De Gaulle and destroyed the Bank of France for the Rothschilds and Macron destroyed the French high-tech company Alstom:
The Macron campaign is now crying that the Russians are behind Fillon’s campaign and cracking the Macron computers: Richard Ferrand, secretary-general of Macron’s En Marche! (Onwards!) party claimed the “Macron campaign was being hit by “hundreds if not thousands” of attacks probing the campaign’s computer systems from locations inside Russia”
The Macron campaign also lacks substance. A French comedian recently pointed out that washing machines have more programs than Macron! In effect, there was nothing on the computers that could be cracked (not hacked).
Macron has promising to reopen discussions with Russia and to make the fight against the Islamic State group a priority. He also flip-flopped and labeled Fillon as a “Putinopile” (If Macron really understood French he would have said Putinophile) or Putin fan. Macron often speaks Engish outside of France which still doesn’t explain the language error.

(3) For those who believe in utopia there is Benoît Hamon (a French Bernie Sanders) who seems to be gaining on Macron. He is best known as party hack that supports universal basic income, the euro and NATO.

(4) Jean Luc Mellenchon rejects of France’s current Russophobic foreign policy and wants France to leave both the euro and NATO but lacks a large party base.

(5) Marine LePen is left of Fillon on preservation of social services and workers rights but like Mellenchon wants France to leave both the euro and NATO. She is best known for her stance that the EU is a dictatorship that has eliminated French sovereignty. See:
Like Trump, she wants strong borders and protect the public from Islamic radicals. She has met with the Grand Mufti of Cairo who has agreed to help her identify Salafist Imams to help cleanse French society of terrorists.

There is a good chance that Marine LePen can win the French Presidential election.,314239 Having said all this, the French do have a tendency to be somewhat childish and do not want to take responsibility for their actions. Charles De Gaulle tried to make them act like adults and where did it get him?

Anyone other than Le Pen for President and the French will be drinking a lot of wine to drown their eventual sorrows. The French also have a lot of cobblestones in place for the start of the Sixth Republic in case they actually sober up.

Yes the French election is as crazy as the American one, but they only have three months to express their craziness!

Lots more articles on the French election at,314554,314267,314332,314309

Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 20 2017 5:45 utc | 74

Good piece up at CounterPunch by DianaJohnstone that speaks to this. France: Another Ghastly Presidential Election Campaign; the Deep State Rises to the Surface

It looks like the fake news bit about Russian intelligence throwing the US election is to be localized as required and repeated in every country where the preferred neoliberal establishment party is under threat.

Johnstone argues, convincingly, that Emmanuel Macron, an "independent" running in the French elections is a fake candidate hastily wheeled out by the global deep state to prevent Marine LePen or her counterpart on the left, independent Jean-Luc Mélenchon, from winning.

Democracy is being slaughtered in a slow-motion spectacle and most people are still acting like nothing out of the ordinary is happening. Posting on internet forums is cathartic and better than sleepwalking through the crisis but it's not changing the world either. But what can we do? Serious question. Typing away as Rome is being set alight isn't enough...there has to be some pushback, but what, how..?

Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Feb 20 2017 8:46 utc | 75

yes, @ somebody, the German exports question is interesting. I’d say, off the cuff that ‘resentment’ towards Germany from France on economic topics - in 2012 as today - concerns:

a) ‘social dumping’ with Germany using the eastern hinterlands integrated into EU for industrial and other delocalisation. (France does it too > the world, to the Mahgreb, China, India.)

b) the Euro, which makes the French ‘euro’ overvalued (as compared to a putative F franc) and the German euro undervalued, so to speak. That is anti-EU/euro argument, not pointedly anti-German.

While it is undoubtedly the case that the German and French ppls retain or now have some animosity towards each other (either superficial knee-jerk or long-rooted), and that ‘rapprochement’ on that level, mostly instigated by the EU (Arte, common TV station, multiple cultural etc. stuff) has failed. Which French girl of 19 learns German to go to G or v-v?

The bedrock of the matter is that German and French ‘industrialists’, now Big Intl Corps, have always been collaborators, which is why the French did not defend themselves in WW2. In fact on that score little has changed …

@Outraged, 66, yes, and I was going to mention Merkel’s phone (oh that is just normal etc.)

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 20 2017 15:28 utc | 76

From a cognitive science perspective, this hurriedly devised explanation is off target. It rests on the premise that until recently, people derived their attitudes from rational, objective considerations of political facts. okie farmer @ 60.

yes, the expl. is ridiculous. And the characterization of those who opposed EU treaties /further integration - who voted for Brexit - US, for Trump - will do so for Le Pen / Wilders or against Merkel, etc. - as white supremacists, quasi-fascists, as symptoms of a sort of dangerous poison aka ‘nationalist populism,’ is off.

Other efforts are blithely labelled radical left (be afraid! Communist hordes at the door!) - see for ex. Syriza in Greece, from the supposed ‘left’ - actually just a cobbled together mainstream party who failed in what they promised.

Whether there is some underground ‘reset’ by the PTB, or a a genuine surge from below I don’t know.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 20 2017 16:03 utc | 77

74 Temporarily sane

Write a blog, share links and arguments on twitter, facebook, forums where alot of people are. Write a book, dare to make your argument when you hear someone you know saying something wrong etc.
Most important: move your arguments you make hear on MOA to other sites, thats how we spread our views to people that have never heard our arguments. Thats where we are needed.
I agree very much with your question: what could we really do?

Its really a fight against a monster but giving up will not lead to anything good.

Posted by: ripz | Feb 20 2017 16:32 utc | 78

December 12, 2016 Georgia Official Says Homeland Security Tried To Hack Their State’s Voter Database

While most of the country frets over Russia’s role in the 2016 election, the state of Georgia has come forward saying that they’ve traced an IP from a hack of their voter database right back to the offices of the Department of Homeland Security. Apparently we need to focus on protecting our vote from our own government. The Ring of Fire’s Farron Cousins discusses this.

Dec 12, 2016 Georgia Official Says Homeland Security Tried To Hack Their State’s Voter Database

While most of the country frets over Russia’s role in the 2016 election, the state of Georgia has come forward saying that they’ve traced an IP from a hack of their voter database right back to the offices of the Department of Homeland Security. Apparently we need to focus on protecting our vote from our own government.

Posted by: Agent76 | Feb 20 2017 17:03 utc | 79

Wow, McCain is very trusting person, you just call him and tell you are prime minister and that's it, you are through, no check, no verification.

Posted by: Yeezy | Feb 21 2017 3:18 utc | 80

b @ 24 "Ooch, someone detected my secret. What am I going to do now?"

Dear b, lol, sorry for having let the cat out of the bag. But don't worry, there is no other site I've come across that arranges the puzzle pieces the way you do. Your uncompromising style of contrasting what is widely reported with what actually happened is unique, a gift to anyone fortunate enough to have found MoA. So keep pouring those stiff drinks barkeep, its what keeps us coming back.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 21 2017 8:31 utc | 81

The comments to this entry are closed.