In Which Reporting About "Fake News" Turns Out To Be Such
Another rather amusing piece about fake news is published in today's New York Times.
The headline:
Fake News, Fake Ukrainians: How a Group of Russians Tilted a Dutch Vote
It is amusing because no fact in the piece agrees with the headline. The piece itself turns out to be fake news. It is about old stuff, not news at all, and the content does not support the theses.
Some Ukrainian expats lobbied in the Netherlands against a vote for a EU-Ukrainian association agreement. Some Dutch people of Russian heritage also lobbied that way. The Dutch eventually rejected the agreement with 61.1% of votes against it and 38.1% in favor.
That vote took place in April 2016. I am not aware of any reason why that poll would now deserve a piece. Its purpose is certainly not to report current news or the vote itself. It does no explain what the vote was really about nor does it mention the numeric results.
A few expats in the Netherlands took part in public discussions and argued for the side of the vote that eventually won. They did so without hiding their identity, fairly and completely within the bounds of all laws. There is no sign at all that they had any influence on the vote.
But that is not good enough for the NYT. "Putin did it" is a standing order. Indeed the lobbying Ukrainians must have been "fake Ukrainians" and secretly Russians because somehow no Ukrainian would ever argue against the violent Maidan putsch and its consequences:
They attended public meetings, appeared on television and used social media to denounce Ukraine’s pro-Western government as a bloodthirsty kleptocracy, unworthy of Dutch support.
...
The most active members of the Ukrainian team were actually from Russia, or from Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine, and parroted the Kremlin line.
The author seems to express that people "from Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine" (which include at least a third of the country) are "fake Ukrainians"? That they have no agency as Ukrainians but are only capable to "parrot the Kremlin line"? Are these Russian speaking Ukrainians of less value? Is there something wrong with having an opinion that does not parrot the Washington/Brussels line?
Then comes a caveat that takes the intended blow out of the whole buildup of the piece:
It is unclear whether the Ukrainian team was directed by Russia or if it was acting out of shared sympathies ...
Could it be that it is neither-nor? That there is third reason why they acted that way? Maybe because they are convinced that the EU-Ukraine agreement is not in the best interest for either country? (Not said in the piece: The agreement in questions is way more than an trade or economic agreement. It includes binding defense and political alignment clauses.)
Let us look at the "Fake Ukrainians" and "Group of Russians":
One such [Russian] contact is Vladimir Kornilov, a Russian-born historian and political analyst who grew up in eastern Ukraine and now lives in The Hague, where he runs a one-man research outfit called the Center for Eurasian Studies.Before the Dutch referendum last year, Mr. Kornilov campaigned against the Ukraine trade deal, describing himself benignly as “a Ukrainian expat in The Hague” who was “stunned by the seemingly endless stream of lies and propaganda” about Russia and felt obliged to respond.
Vladimir Kornilov looks around 40 years old. When he was born there was no "Russia" or "Ukraine" as we understand them today. The historic Russia included the Ukraine. When Kornilov was born there was the Soviet Union with many federal entities. "Russian-born" and "grew up in eastern Ukraine" is a national categorization that no one made before the USSR fell apart. People would have said "born in Moscow" and "grew up in Donetsk" or something of that kind.
Kornilov strongly disagrees with the NYT piece and especially the "fake Ukrainians" headline:
Vladimir Kornilov @Kornilov1968@nytimesworld Dear editors! What does it mean "Fake Ukrainians"? Your author know that I'm an Ukrainian citizen and don't have another pass
4:07 AM - 16 Feb 2017
The only "Russian" with which the piece comes up with is a young student who came to the Netherlands as a child:
A particularly active member of the Ukrainian team was Nikita Ananjev, a 26-year-old student born in Moscow who moved with his mother to the Netherlands, where he is now chairman of the Russian Student Association.
Ananjev describes himself publicly as "Dutch raised but still 80% Russian".
Kornilov and Ananjev are the only two relevant persons the NYT piece identifies. They are the "Fake Ukrainians" and "Group of Russians" the headline describes.
The "fake Ukrainian" is not "fake" at all but a real Ukrainian. The "Group of Russians" is a Dutch raised student in Rotterdam. The NYT has found no sign of any actual Russian influence on their public arguments or opinions. There is zero evidence in the piece, none at all, that these people "tilted a Dutch vote". There is not even one attempt made to show that this was the case.
The people of the Netherlands, Dutch people, voted against the preference of the NYT editors by a quite large margin. That this might have to do with the rather bad agreement the vote was about, or with the illegality of the U.S. organized Maidan putsch, does not deserve any question or attention. Instead we get false assertions about foreign influence stated as facts with nothing to back that up.
The "fake news" in the headline makes sense only as a description of the piece itself.
There is no argument in it that actually supports the headline. There are no "fake Ukrainians", there is no "Group of Russians" and those few expats who were active did not "tilt the Dutch vote".
The piece is also fake news because it contains no news at all. The vote was 10 month ago. The expats lobbied openly before the vote took place. Nothing mentioned in the piece has since changed. There is no one new fact in it.
It is cooked up propaganda which does no include any facts to back up its message. A rather sorry attempt to stoke the anti-Russian campaign that was intensified by Hillary Clinton first to win the election and, when that had failed, to explain her loss. It fits the imperial illusion of the "sole superpower" the NYT generally peddles. But it does not really serve its purpose. It is completely unconvincing and easy to debunk. It is fake news.
Posted by b on February 16, 2017 at 21:03 UTC | Permalink
« previous page@ Posted by: Eureka Springs | Feb 17, 2017 8:47:40 PM | 102
Great link, excellent data, thank you. We are certainly, not alone.
Posted by: Outraged | Feb 18 2017 2:44 utc | 103
@Circe 104
Although in truth I came back inside from a perfect late summer saturday afternoon to register my absolute dislike of the schoolyard name-calling by the two ninnies (who I strongly suspect to be one, alternate nyms of the prime ninny) I feel obliged to point out that your poking em back is likely a wrong move since they are either mentally children who have never progressed past name calling into rational discussion, or they are as I said above avatars for the prime ninny whose attachment to the Trump has become so determined that nothing will ever shake his belief - especially since it is much like the blind loyalty ninnies have for sports teams based on a mixture of emotional attachment and ego.
Nobody ever changes their mind as a result of losing an argument but even so rational people will shift over a period of time if the reality demands it, but that isn't the case for the fanboi who when Trump's bullshit can no longer be denied, will disappear from these boards rather than face the ignominy he believes he has earned.
Eventually he may return under a different nym as so many others have if he cannot find anywhere else to post his irrationalities every day but he will never own up to being who he currently is.
I was pissed and came back because I was trying to make a point about the true nature of the Saudi antipathy towards Iran only to see it buried in bullshit My return was also unlikely to effect any change in the level of kiddy debate from that quarter but I do reckon that you the target by reacting to the fuckwittery will encourage it.
That isn't victim blaming as much as an observation of the nature of fuckwits.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Feb 18 2017 2:55 utc | 104
fake--fake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U16Xg_rQZkA
Posted by: duck1 | Feb 18 2017 3:06 utc | 105
@ 96 DebsisDead I always have enjoyed reading your comments and that snapshot of the Saudi elite psychology is perhaps the most intriguing I have read/heard .... the Saudi's are held in such contempt in the region with their whoring, drinking and drugs ... the show of disdain and disrespect to anyone not "white" or not "high class" is just above the disdain they shower in the poor Shia. The Shia of Saudi Arabia are the equivalent of 'blacks' in the United States or as you wrote before 'black fellows' in Australia.
Posted by: Thirsy | Feb 18 2017 3:13 utc | 106
The failing US is the enemy of the People of the World.
Posted by: From The Hague | Feb 18 2017 3:21 utc | 107
@harrylaw 54 & karlof1 59:
You can't tell Americans that they're under the thumb of an empire and expect them to listen to you unless you provide examples like the British and French and Soviet Empires for comparison. Britain, for example, played a key role in starting World War I by denying Germany access to Middle Eastern oil, aka the Baghdad-to-Berlin railroad:
Rob Newman History of Oil
The French Empire's role in the Vietnam debacle, a failed post-WWII effort to re-establish French colonial control of Southeast Asia? Or the Soviet Union's role in Hungary, or their invasion of Afghanistan? Where empires go to die.
To get to Americans, you have to explain this history, and then explain that America is the last global empire, the end game of the imperial period, and it has to dissolve, just as the USSR did; the world that results will be one in which trade between nations is the norm, not war between nations.
Of course, this means that American client states like Saudi Arabia and Israel will have to change; very difficult since Israel is a huge nuclear power (some estimate it to be #3 in terms of arsenal size) and the Saudis are a corrupt monarchist Wahhabi state, but it is inevitable that the American Empire will collapse - and the sooner th better, it has become a huge weight around the neck of the American people, benefiting only a few elites in Washington and Wall Street.
I mean, if you want real news, take a look at Steve Coll's Private Empire of ExxonMobil, that will explain more about the modern world than any CNN or FOX bullshit:
Steve Coll Private Empire XOM
That's real journalism; the puppet show of WaPo NYT CNN FOX, that's a waste of time, entirely. The only reason to flip through NYT and WaPo headlines is to see what kind of propaganda is being fed to the American public.
@Circe & Jackrabbit: this is the reality, why don't you admit this? Trump is just a phenomenon, Hillary Clinton was supposed to be the next champion of Empire. This election represents populist American outrage over this corrupt imperial system, its rotten media, its dirty Congressmembers, the appartchiks of the executive bureaucracy, all the idiot think tanks - Everyone wants them gone. The deep state, that's the problem, a bunch of jackals sitting around pulling down six-figure salaries off taxpayer income, plotting the next war, desperately trying to maintain their relevance in a world that no longer needs or wants them.
Posted by: nonsense factory | Feb 18 2017 4:21 utc | 108
TRUMP HAS THE POWER TO DECLASSIFY WHATEVER HE WANTS — INCLUDING THE RUSSIAN INTERCEPTS
From the Intercept:
Debs @106: Good advise, for everyone.
Posted by: ben | Feb 18 2017 4:54 utc | 109
IMO, Mr. Trump isn't deranged or crazy, he's following a Bannon plan to delegitimize the MSM, and stifle dissent, by accusing them of peddling "Fake News". His offensive is just beginning. The way the MSM lied us into the latest wars, they deserve to be discredited.
I'm LMAO.
Posted by: ben | Feb 18 2017 5:21 utc | 112
I find a McCain to be a nice thermometer for deep state views on Trump. First, he was cheerleading for Flynn's Iranophobia a few days ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com. . republicans-cheer-flynn-putting-iran-on-notice/
No, I don't bother reading anything Wapo or NyTimes publishes, I just scan their headlines on Google Search.
Here's something, though, I tried to find any articles mentioning both Flynn and Abrams:
Google [ flynn abrams iran ]
See that's how you find interesting stories.
. . .flynn-trump-and-elliott-abrams
The thing is, now McCain is all up in arms again:
. . .john-mccain-savages-donald-trump-administration-inability-separate-truth-from-lies
So McCain is all hyped about Flynn, Flynn gets dismissed, McCain has a breakdown?
Now, Circe - you were wrong about Elliott Abrams, obviously deep state doesn't like Trump (not that Trump is some panacea), so I think it's time to pay up on the attack Iran at 10:1 odds, isn't it? Bitcoin please!
Posted by: nonsense factory | Feb 18 2017 6:06 utc | 113
Sorry if this has been posted already, but I scanned the comments and didn't find it.
I think it is an extremely interesting piece and deserves attention.
http://www.thomaswictor.com/leakers-beware/
It makes sense out of some things that were not adding up any other way I've found.
And I find it heartening.
@ Posted by: nonsense factory | Feb 17, 2017 11:21:10 PM | 110
lol. Fixed first link:
Robert Newman - History of Oil
Posted by: Outraged | Feb 18 2017 6:20 utc | 115
@ Posted by: nines | Feb 18, 2017 1:20:26 AM | 116
#Fake, tho therefore On-Topic. Simply utter BS. The site is an Israeli disinformation/dissonance site, similar to DEBKA.
The simplest most likely explanation for Flynn's dismissal, is the one given, he misled the VP, twice. Breach of trust & faith as NSA, yer OUT!
No one involved at the levels concerned from any area of the Intel community would be caught out as described. Farcical. There are multiple & varied far more subtle methods involved re identifying a 'specific' leaker via a document/text/content. And ALL involved would be professionally aware of them. For starters, an exact copy of a document is never made, see previous, second, in the proposed scenario, any Intel leaker would purposely PARAPHRASE, not recount word for word, verbatim, as described, to a 'cut-out', who would again PARAPHRASE, to a media contact, in such a scenario for self-protection, as well as other measures prior ...
James Clapper(!), participated in the fictional sting ? The DNI who championed the Russian 'hacking of an election', the MI6 'Dossier' that never was, etc, ?! Clapper was out prior to the 20th. James Clapper trusted by the Trump-faction ?! RAOTFLMAO!
Could go on, however, the 'Leaks' (mis-characterized content(?)) re Flynn occurred almost certainly via COMINT/NSA intercepts, since we've depended on such for 80% of worthwhile intelligence for far too many decades ...
The timelines, the assertions re the Mexican and Australian telephone calls are ludicrous ... cartoonish! Want to waste time, read some of the other fantastical crap on that site ... or just skip to "Metastatic blog has become terminal. Behold my final post" ... better have a bucket handy to puke in as you proceed ;)
Posted by: Outraged | Feb 18 2017 7:45 utc | 116
Thank you so much for writing this!! The lies in this NY Times article have really upset me, people should make an effort to find and do something about the real reasons for civilians voting like this, instead of just being lazy and blame the Russians. That's just the easy way out and making people blind to the real motivations.
Posted by: Laura | Feb 18 2017 8:32 utc | 117
Circe @95
I am at “b’s” website to learn and share with links that academically support my statements. I tend to focus on energy geopolitics as that is one of my specialties before I retired.
My comments at Krollchem @30 were directed to your statements on Russian foreign policy in Syria and Ukraine which appeared to echo the Obama/Hillary Zionist propaganda they promote which was created by the “Neocon Plan for the New American Century” and implemented by the Zionist cookie monster Victoria Nuland (wife of Robert Kagan).
As you know, Hillary and her harpies ran Obama’s foreign policy behind his back while he spent his time running the drone war from his personal war game room. Obama’s obsession for his drone kill “game”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-smart-war-us-drone-killing-machine-now-on-autopilot/5570499
was similar to the Saudi king’s pastime of strangling pigeons. Hillary’s team were responsible for overthrowing the governments of Ukraine, Egypt, Libya, Honduras, Brazil and attempted coups in Syria, Macedonia, Moldavia, Transnestria, Yemen and Venezuela. Thus you comment that Russian actions were hostile should have applied to the Obama administration policy and not the Trump administration. Trump has stated over and over again that his administration is not interested in regime change (we shall see).
Perhaps I should elaborate and clarify my statement based on your comment: “When you consider that many more European countries feel Russia is a threat as opposed to only Israel and KSA feeling threatened by Iran; your argument doesn't justify Trump's bias.”
First, European countries really don’t matter much, as they are subordinate to the a CIA created EU dictatorship of four Presidents and one Commissar – none of which are elected:
http://theduran.com/eus-five-unelected-presidents-connection-cia/
Second the EU doesn’t matter much as Nuland clearly stated, and Ambassador Pratt concurred, “fuck the EU” in regards to their planning of the Ukraine coup. The Hillary and her harpies coup had three main goals:
(1) Gain control of Crimea for US military projection of power and push Russian naval forces out of the Black Sea;
(2) Acquire oil reserves offshore of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine (Donbass);
(3) Prevent European economic integration with Russia and China:
http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/why-is-putin-in-washingtons-crosshairs/
http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/the-fallujah-option-for-east-ukraine/
http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/uncle-sam-does-ukraine/
One could argue the coup also providing a job (legal director for Ukraine’s Boresma Holdings) for vice President Biden’s coke head son Hunter Biden helped sell the plan: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8OKhlGlQpU)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-vice-president-bidens-son-continues-to-buy-gas-assets-in-ukraine/5505300
The Hillary/Nuland plan has worked thus far to force EU sanctions against Russia. The sanctions have overall hurt the EU but not so much Russia. Putin seems more than happy to see the EU sanctions continue, along with Russia counter sanctions. Turns out that they are allowing Russia to be more self-sufficient which is a long term goal of Putin. Russia ran a 12 billion trade surplus this last month, which is something that the US and most EU pseudo-countries cannot claim!
If you are following the EU political landscape, there are several countries who may soon choose to exit the EU (e.g. UK, France, Netherlands, Greece, Hungary) as well as several other countries complaining about the sanctions against Russia.
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 18 2017 8:32 utc | 118
Circe @95 continued:
“As Trump stated in his most recent presser, that the U.S. views Russia as an equal nuclear competitor.”
Trump also stressed in the presser that the consequences of thermonuclear war are unmanageable. Neither Trump, nor his advisors, fully recognize the danger as they do not have the technical and environmental background to truly understand just how bad a 20,000+ nuclear exchange would be (nuclear winter).
Previously, Obama’s U.S. Nuclear Weapons Council rejected the potential for nuclear winter , including General John Hyten, Head of USSTRATCOM, who is in charge of the U.S. nuclear triad, and General Paul Selva, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:
https://fas.org/2017/01/turning-a-blind-eye-towards-armageddon-u-s-leaders-reject-nuclear-winter-studies/
Several of these council members along with US Intel Agencies are trying to Strong-Arm Trump Into War with Russia (see also Hillarys war-whoop article)
http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/us-intel-agencies-try-to-strong-arm-trump-into-war-with-russia/
http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/hillarys-war-whoop/
Given Russia’s superiority in nuclear weapons delivery systems and rapid advances, Trump cannot directly threaten Russia! The economic sanctions also supported by Trump are useless as I pointed out above. Trump can tweet all he wants for domestic consumption… He should also remember Field Montgomery’s advise:
(1) never attack Russia;
(2) never start a land war with China;
(3) never attack Russia
You misunderstood what I said in your comment: “Iran is not a potential breakaway region - Iran is a sovereign nation that is not even considered to be an Arab state and can do with it's oil and gas reserves as it pleases.“
I never stated that Iran was not a sovereign nation: I was referring to the Northeast region of what is now Saudi Arabia. This region is populated by mostly Shiite Muslims and also coincidentally contains most of Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves. This region consists of “Al-Hasa and Qatif which were conquered and annexed into the Emirate of Riyadh in 1913 by Ibn Saud”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Qatif_Uprising
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 18 2017 8:34 utc | 119
Circe @95 continued:
I agree with your comment that: “Yemen is also a sovereign nation; therefore, if Saudis exploit its oil reserves; that would be theft, a breach of sovereignty; hence an act of war.”
Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia, along with UAE are conducting a genocidal war against the Houthi who are members of the Zaidi sect, and their Sunni allies that back acting president Ali Abdullah Saleh.
https://news.vice.com/article/saudi-arabias-unsavory-allies-in-yemen-could-make-things-really-awkward-for-the-us
Saudi Arabia support the previous president Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi (who exceeded his two year term) and UAE supports the former Prime Minister Khaled Bahah although they sometimes fight each other:
http://en.farsnews.com/print.aspx?nn=13941127000512
Saudi Arabia is using large numbers of mercs from Sudan and Central America as well as al Qaeda factions and UAE is employing Mercs from Eritrea to do much of the ground fighting
Yemen is sitting on substantial oil and gas reserves in Murad province populated primarily by the Sunni Marib tribe. “Riyadh's Dirty Secret: Saudi Arabia Thirsty for Yemeni Oil, Gas Reserves”
https://sputniknews.com/politics/201604061037584835-saudi-arabia-yemen-gas-oil/
http://yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?SubID=7606
Besides the oil and gas reserves, US and other Western powers control of Yemen of “great strategic importance to the stability of Saudi Arabia and the Arabian Peninsula.” And also a needed for a Saudi controlled pipeline route:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44362.htm
Trump is unfortunately continuing and expanding the war previously supported by Hillary and Obama. You will note that Trump recently approved the sale of smart bombs to Saudi Arabia in order to kill more Houthis, expanding the genocide!
“Trump pretended a non-interventionist policy and then 3 weeks in office he's sanctioning and threatening Iran.”
Trump’s statement that Iran is the biggest sponsor of terrorism demonstrates that he is an ignorant vessel to be filled up by the Deep State. How does anyone ignore the fact that most of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia and all were followers of Wahhabism. As one article pointed out: “It's the Saudis, Stupid!”
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2017/01/its-saudis-stupid.html#more
A Islamic leaders in Jordan stated that “They specifically recognized the validity of all 8 Mathhabs (legal schools) of Sunni, Shi’a and Ibadhi Islam; of traditional Islamic Theology (Ash’arism); of Islamic Mysticism (Sufism), and of true Salafi thought, and came to a precise definition of who is a Muslim.” http://ammanmessage.com/ Unfortunately, this conclave did not include the Grand Mufti of Mecca and the Chief Imam of the University of Medena!
Normative Sunni Orthodox opinion as the leading Sufi-Scholar Shaykh Muhammad Yaquobi stated:
“Although ‘Alawis are considered kufaar [disbelievers] in the Hanafi school, as a sect we accept their legal presence within the Muslim community. They are not to be executed as murtadiin [apostates], because they were not Muslims who rejected Islam. They were born within their sect!”
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/sheikh-muhammad-al-yaqoubi-interviewed-by-syria-comment/
Most Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia (and Qatar) consider the Alawis in Syria and the Zaidi sect Houthi to be apostates. While the Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam of Cairo Denounces ISIS and radical Wahhabi ideology, the Saudi and Qatar Governments could care less: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/12/muslim-leader-condemns-islamic-state_n_5671572.html
Likewise, the US, France, UK, Canada (see recent arms sales to Saudi Arabia) and other Western powers could also care less as long as the Merchants of Death make a profit. Trump has a personal interest in the war as his friend Eric Prince (Blackwater, Xe, R2 Academi) runs the companies that trains UAE and mercs to fight in Yemen against the Houthi and allied Sunni forces that oppose ex-president Hadi.
It is the Western powers and Israel that serve to protect Wahhabism so as to continue the the oil revenue stream. I am sure that most of the Islamic world would welcome the elimination of the Wahhabi ideology and the return of a Sharif of Mecca. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_Sharif_of_Mecca
“Russia has a spy ship off U.S. waters, Russia tested a cruise missile and Russian fighter jets buzzed a U.S. warship. Iran only tested a medium-range ballistic missile and right away Trump imposed sanctions and threatened putting Iran on notice also tweeting threats against Iran.”
Trump is too ignorant understand that the cash transfer to Iran was Iranian funds frozen during the Western sanctions that were finally lifted by Obama, among other leaders. Trump also thinks that the money was a hostage release bribe due to his ignorance of the world and the Deep State turning him into a pod person. As far as I can tell Iran is also owed interest on the frozen funds, which greatly exceed the principle, which I suspect they will never receive.
Trump probably hasn’t been told Russia has provided Iran with Gauntlet and S-300 missile batteries as well as shore to ship missiles by China. I sure hope Trump will wake up as war with Iran will result in worldwide economic collapse sooner than predicted (did you have a change to read my previous links on this subject ?)
We shall see if Trump will keep his promise not to overthrow foreign government. At least the neocons such as Hillary Graham and McCain hate Trump and he stated that he supports no first use of nuclear weapons. Hillary refused to make this pledge!
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 18 2017 8:35 utc | 120
Empowering the "Deep State" to Undermine Trump is Prescription for Destroying Democracy
Now, I happen to think that the Trump presidency is extremely dangerous. ...- They want to dismantle the environment.
- They want to eliminate the safety net.
- They want to empower billionaires.
- They want to enact bigoted policies against Muslims and immigrants and so many others.And it is important to resist them. ...
What they’re doing instead is trying to take maybe the only faction worse than Donald Trump, which is the deep state, the CIA, with its histories of atrocities, and say they ought to almost engage in like a soft coup, where they take the elected president and prevent him from enacting his policies. And I think it is extremely dangerous to do that.
Even if you’re somebody who believes that both the CIA and the deep state, on the one hand, and the Trump presidency, on the other, are extremely dangerous, as I do, there’s a huge difference between the two, which is that Trump was democratically elected and is subject to democratic controls, as these courts just demonstrated and as the media is showing, as citizens are proving.
But on the other hand, the CIA was elected by nobody. They’re barely subject to democratic controls at all. And so, to urge that the CIA and the intelligence community empower itself to undermine the elected branches of government is insanity. That is a prescription for destroying democracy overnight in the name of saving it.
And yet that’s what so many, not just neocons, but the neocons’ allies in the Democratic Party, are now urging and cheering. And it’s incredibly warped and dangerous to watch them do that.
i think that's a rational analysis of what's going down.
Posted by: jfl | Feb 18 2017 9:11 utc | 121
@Circe So how desperate has become hasbara these days?
Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 18 2017 14:14 utc | 122
@106
I was pissed and came back because I was trying to make a point about the true nature of the Saudi antipathy towards Iran only to see it buried in bullshit
I got to read it anyway despite the bullshit and fuckwittery around, and I believe two others got to read it as well @108 included, so it was worth the effort.
@120,121,122
I read your informative analysis as well and I'm also relieved to know that there are people here who didn't drink the Kool-Aid.
@123
But on the other hand, the CIA was elected by nobody. They’re barely subject to democratic controls at all. And so, to urge that the CIA and the intelligence community empower itself to undermine the elected branches of government is insanity. That is a prescription for destroying democracy overnight in the name of saving it.
I don't call it democracy when people are being fooled and screwed from all sides by a two-party monopoly and their pretender figureheads like Obama and Trump who come along with their messiah-complex, ready to exploit the people's desperation and the impoverished Appalachia and sheeple in rural counties' ignorance, to feed their own insatiable egos. Really, can you call that democracy?
Yeah, the CIA is the legitimate mob, that should be eliminated, but ask yourself, is there anything worth salvaging in such a fraudulent system designed to benefit a select few and screw everyone else? Only when people realize their government has been corrupted to the extent that it has and morphed into the enemy will they understand what needs to be done to take back their democracy. I don't see any other way out. Let's not forget also how many other nations, some democracies the U.S. is responsible for destroying. The foundation was noble at the start; but today the structure has widespread rot, and it's time to tear it down and rebuild.
Posted by: Circe | Feb 18 2017 14:22 utc | 123
@124
Sigh...it's bad. So bad Goebbels might have even learned a thing or two from the level of bullshit out there.
The only difference between Obamabots and Trumpsters is the color of the Kool-Aid.
Posted by: Circe | Feb 18 2017 14:38 utc | 124
nonsense factory | Feb 17, 2017 11:21:10 PM | 110
Many historians have attempted to explain the American Empire to the American people for a long time: During WW2, Bernard DeVoto published the first installment of his trilogy depicting the Empire as it began--The Year of Decision: 1846--topped by his Course of Empire in 1952; Across the Wide Missouri was the middle work and won the Pulitzer Prize in 1947. William Appleman Williams taught about Empire to his university students and published some of the best explanatory works about it, beginning with The Contours of American History in 1961, then The Roots of the Modern American Empire: A Study of the Growth and Shaping of Social Consciousness in a Marketplace Society in 1969, and capped by Empire as a Way of Life: An Essay on the Causes and Character of America's Present Predicament, Along With a Few Thoughts About an Alternative in 1980. Most of Chomsky's many publications center on the nature of the Outlaw US Empire.
So, when I taught, most of the writing and research was already there, and I cited those and other works to get students to understand what sort of polity they lived within and the history of its actions. Many well meaning historians have tried over many years to inform the public, but still the public mostly remains ignorant of their condition and place in the world to their great detriment.
Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 18 2017 15:34 utc | 125
Russia (aka Putin) and Trump are to blame for everything. Of course, many reasons are to be found: Russia as a scapegoat for Dem loss of the election, Russia as a historic so-called threat and a power that is now pushing for a multipolar world, the MIC + others who want war, lashing back at an ‘enemy’ who appears to be making ‘head-strides’, and more.
Putin as the figure-head gets the flack, and Trump, as coming out for ‘détente with R’ putting a spanner in the works, is associated with Putin. The last serves the purpose of masking the deathly in-fighting within power circles in the US which can’t be revealed to the public. (E.g. the Dems don’t blame Assange, as he is just one guy, that would be an Xtreme show of weakness, or the Repubs, these being more adept at vote-rigging than they are, while they part of the ‘fake’ duopoly. .. )
The ‘fake news’ meme is a hapless attack on loss of command /creation / control of the ‘narrative’ by the usual reversal - accuse others of what you do yourself. The neo-cons-libs, US PTB, have lost the plot, and while they hold the MSM, particularly TV (as profiteering, scheming hangers-on) they have not been able to adapt to the ‘intertube’ age. As is often the case, the illusion of control rests on sclerotic schemes of distribution of power and ppl being blinded by their need to ‘hang on.’ Not that the internet is a boon for ‘people power’, that doesn’t follow, and it is another discussion.
Posted by: Noirette | Feb 18 2017 16:33 utc | 126
Outraged @ 118 says:
Want to waste time, read some of the other fantastical crap on that site
skip directly to the bass solo at the bottom of mr. wictor's memorial page by the remarkable Scott Thunes and just listen...it's a real gem!
Posted by: john | Feb 18 2017 18:03 utc | 127
Circe@125
Here is a good book that covers the CIA in detail:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0997287012/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
As for Goebbels he learned everything from edward Bernays book propaganda:
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 18 2017 19:09 utc | 128
Well txs to Krollchem for his eloquent crossing of the T's and doting of the I's. Great job..
Posted by: Lozion | Feb 18 2017 22:32 utc | 129
Circe@ 125
Thanks. Often I find it best to elaborate on a subject, with a lot of links, to find common ground and learn from others.
So often short answers lead to misunderstanding and name calling.
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 19 2017 1:20 utc | 130
132 Krollchem
Lucky you.
With Circe and a sane mind, the more severely you misunderstand him, the more likely you are to find common ground instead of getting a severe need to namecall him/her/it.
Posted by: Quadriad | Feb 20 2017 8:36 utc | 131
"The most active members of the Ukrainian team were actually from Russia, or from breakaway Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine"
"Correction: February 17, 2017
(...) They are breakaway Russian-speaking regions, not just Russian-speaking."
Considering people from "breakaway Russian-speaking regions" as "fake-Ukrainians" the NYT strongly support the secession of Donbas, isn't it? :)
Posted by: lvzor | Feb 22 2017 11:26 utc | 132
The comments to this entry are closed.
@99
Oh gawd, I was only quoting facts! I wasn't making any judgment against Russia for any of those actions. I was merely using those facts to make a point about Trump's bias towards Iran; that's it. You're being really dishonest taking those facts out of context.
Posted by: Circe | Feb 18 2017 1:51 utc | 101