Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 25, 2016

Open Thread 2016-35

(sorry for absence - hope to be back tomorrow - b.)

News & views ...

Posted by b on October 25, 2016 at 16:31 UTC | Permalink

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Pro Peace @ 46: Do you think they might try fake "assassination" of Hitlary by "a fanatic Trump supporter" ?

HRC, if she was smart, which she and her sycophantic groupie on-the gravy-train advisors are not, should be afraid. On the intertubes ppl scream that The Donald should watch his back, but he is not at risk, HRC is. Her dying, preferably thru some mystery murder shoot, would fix so many problems - a stop to investigations, no indictments, no prosecutions of the Clinton Foundation (which would go under the radar etc.), it would be nothing to see here folks, forget the e-mails, Benghazi, pass by, an ugly despicable horrific murder, we respect the grieving Chelsea and Bill and family, > see PP’s post.

Imho, it won’t happen, because it would be a huge loss of face and of investment.

Much of world has been co-opted by the US into supporting Killary, and many have put forward huge sums to ‘her’, to the most visible and rapacious part of the Deep State, aka the Clinton Foundation, which is supposed to furnish a return.

Killing Killary (sic) off would be a reneging on various shadowy contracts, deals and would not go down well. This is also the reason why the HRC ‘health scares’ has resonated world-wide.

Plus, another politically motivated assassination in the US is now hard to pull off, as it might be seen by the public and leaders everywhere as nefarious, very damaging to the reputation of the USA. No security, no stability, internally a rogue scene, one can’t deal with that.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 27 2016 16:48 utc | 101


A September 15, 2016 series of reports from the US EIA & anticipates projected technologies and still finds the capital expenditure comparison between gas and solar PV to be: solar PV costs 14 TIMES as much as gas per unit of production This is before subsidies of course.

Warren Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway which owns 10 power companies:
"More and more regulated power companies are facing a world where third parties, like solar service providers, can compete with them directly on cost. (Although Buffett stresses that the only reason for this competition is because of federal subsidies.)" --

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 27 2016 17:14 utc | 102

Jdmckay, I got curious as to how Chile was "delivering cheapest electricity ever anywhere by anyone" as the Joe Romm headline says-- especially with unsubsidized solar. And guess what?

"In Chile’s power auctions, developers offer to provide a certain amount of capacity at a specific price, without saying what type of power plant they’re planning to build. . . and distribution companies select the lowest-cost proposals available. "

Chile subsidizes solar and wind. And, by law, there is a penalty for power companies who fail to meet the quota of a certain percentage of renewable generation.

So no one has "delivered" electricity. They are bidding to provide it w/o saying how, and if they choose solar it's subsidized. Joe Romm was consistently incorrect.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 27 2016 20:55 utc | 103

in re 96

Ah, the Sturmbannfuehrer speaks.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 27 2016 21:32 utc | 104

Oh, and I think the beef from the antizionist gallery is insufficient zeal in condemning the illegal settlements and the ongoing brutality needed to maintain them in the West Bank. Who jails kids for throwing stones as soldiers in body armor? Jesus wept.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 27 2016 21:38 utc | 105


I don't know. China seems to SAY no more coal-plants, but to keep building them. Maybe they're insurance against an oil blockade.
‎Sep 21, 2016 ... Despite China's ratification of the Paris global climate agreement, it is still building more coal-fired power plants. So too is Japan, who is ...

Probably they're just building the hi-tech ones & closing down the primitive ones that spew particulates that're actually a danger to health. Their latest official report says coal power will increase by 2% annually instead of the 9% when the economy was surging, if I remember right. But it's 2/3 of their energy so renewables can't replace that.

Lots of Chinese households use coal too. We used to use it on the farm; you just throw it in the furnace or the kitchen pot-bellied stove. Burns a long time, but very dirty. Black dust on the snow.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 27 2016 22:10 utc | 106

@ Penelope

You don't even (remotely) accurately quote your own sources (that solar PV costs 14 TIMES ng for example).

You (IMO arrogantly) say: " Joe Romm was consistently incorrect", dropping "suggestion" contract he describes was subsidized (Chile does subsidize renewables under certain circumstances). You pull a Bloomberg link from last month commenting on an October contract (which doesn't support you "position" either), while ignoring Romm's (also) Bloomberg (from August... entirely different auction/contract requirements) link which he cited as source... which completely backs up his claims, including what you mock.

You say something trying to suggest winning bidders didn't commit to their fuel source (solar): winning bidders are 100% PV solar, the article says this explicitly, and if you dig a little deeper winning bidders have public documents clearly listing their financing and SOLAR PV farm technology for these plants.

As far as your Canadian link... I didn't bother to read it. Your conclusion after it is about what you said at beginning of this conversation. If you don't believe or trust info/links I gave, or want to embrace your (some going back to 2013) obsolete China news as fact that's certainly your business.

You seem to make a deal out of these only being "contracts"... not delivering yet. I never said otherwise, pointing out only that there's been well over 1/2 dozen mega (commercial scale) pv contracts awarded around the globe in last 6-8 months, all mwh prices well under market in their respective locations, and all winning contracts greatly (20% or more) below nearest NG fired bid... some as much as 40%.

This is brand new stuff. Nothing like this even a year ago, let alone even close to these prices. Winning bidders are locked: if they don't deliver they pay... could put them out of business.

You can get on Google and it's not too hard to find articles on best known financial media that NG generating companies AND investors are "all shook up" about this.

Which all comes back to where I began (with plenty of references):

- China is massively exiting Coal. News in the west is alway late on this and has been for years.
- China is massively accelerating PV investment, development and worker training. U.S. is not even close.
- Commercial PV is experiencing similar, greatly accelerating growth on other developed continents (but none at China's pace) except U.S.

Sorry, I just feel you are playing cheesy game of "got'cha" with me. I've lost interest in this conversation.

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 28 2016 1:15 utc | 107

So here are examples of the cancer growing in the US

on the one hand you have government suppression of protests (ND indians and oil pipeline)

and then you have the government mollycoddling of other protesters (the Bundy crowd at the wildlife refuge they held and trashed)

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2016 1:44 utc | 108

@jdmckay | Oct 27, 2016 9:15:03 PM | 107

Came across this piece today. Very long and well documented. A nation with a 5000-year history....China was communist long before Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels made it a household term.

The Rise of China: What it Means for the World - Interview with Jeff Brown. Kim Petersen. American Herald Tribune
Tue, 13 Sep 2016 01:31 UTCMap

...Since 1949, China has brought one billion citizens out of poverty and created the largest and fastest growing middle class in the world, .....In purchasing power parities (PPP), China surpassed the US, to become the world's #1 economy in 2014 and in PPP terms, will be 50% bigger than America's in only a year from now.....

.....Chinese Admiral Zheng He made seven voyages to Asia, Indonesia, Arabia and Africa, 1407-1421,....Zheng He's first voyage consisted of 317 ships, carrying 27,870 crew members. How significant is 27,870 voyagers? It represents half the total population of the city of London, in 1407! China's ships were titanic in size, up to 135m long, with 7-8 main masts and compartmentalized hulls and advanced rudders and rigging, whose innovations were centuries ahead of the West....

Posted by: Jack Smith | Oct 28 2016 2:22 utc | 109

@105 rufus.. no, i think anyone who follows zionism and can find a way to justify what israel does under it's name is a sick puppy.. it is one of the many reasons many jewish people have turned their back on zionism, especially the younger generations in the west... combo of israel/zionisms acts, with bds and an awareness of what a sickness zionism is will turn many more away from anyone who wants to hold to zionism..

Posted by: james | Oct 28 2016 2:54 utc | 110

jack smith @ 109

Thanks! Read the entire Q & A @ your link, really enjoyed it. Especially your 1st quote, very salient. FWIW, I was there 3 times between mid- 90's through 2003, each visit about 6 weeks. Last couple years, I spend about 1/2 my time in S.E. Asia... mostly Southern China and Vietnam.

My experience in China largely matches that of Brown & Peterson. Especially for westerners, maybe more so Americans... it's just a magical place. The people overwhelmingly are warm and approachable. The culture, their soul though... is so much different words cannot explain. Just have to experience it for one's self. I'd just say to anyone, if you have the chance to go (and aren't a bigot)... Go! It will enrich you greatly, expand your view of the world in a good way.

Relevant to what JB says:

There is a well-known stable of commercially successful "China experts", who have not had the same experiences as I have had over 13 years here, and continue to do so. They see a China that they imagine, or onto which they project their mythical Western ideals. (...)

I agree with this 1000%. It is so pervasive... again, very very difficult to communicate this in meaningful way to Americans who've never ventured beyond N. America.

I'd make 2 minor quibbles with 'em:

The Chinese have never been hegemonic, colonial, nor imperial. For thousands of years, the Chinese expanded their nation out to their natural borders. (... colonialism is) just not in their cultural and political DNA (...)

Largely true, with major exception of repeated occupation/incursions into Vietnam going back at least 2000 years.


Since 1949, China has brought one billion citizens out of poverty (...)

AFAIC meteoric rise of China's middle class did not begin in earnest until the mid 80's and really take off in the 90's, then whole economy into entire new realm shortly after 2k. People forget, China experienced multiple, consecutive years under Mao where over 10m died annually from starvation. I'm not so sure history will hold him in such high esteem as the party still reveres him: Mao had the ideology, but he didn't execute all that well. Effective execution did not begin until Deng IMO. And last 20 years (Deng & Xi) in my mind it's a given, they've out-executed every other nation on Earth. To me, it's utterly amazing. I have profound respect/admiration for what their leadership & people have accomplished.

Anyway, thanks again for posting. Really enjoyed that. :)

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 28 2016 4:24 utc | 111

To refer to zionism as a "sickness" is a form of dehumanization of the victim.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28 2016 4:47 utc | 112

@ Jack Smith & jcmckay

China has and is showing folks a lot to learn from. If the West wasn't stuck in its private finance/profit driven form of social organization with all the attendant bad incentives and exceptionalist mindset it wouldn't look and act so dysfuctional, IMO.

China has created and executed 13 - 5 year plans which means that Mao needs to be given some credit for getting the structure going. The West doesn't do public big picture social planning because folks like me ask too many questions and it makes the greedy bastards look bad. The West is also now into dumbing down the populace under its control for the same reason, educated people ask embarrassing questions.

I see the current geopolitical madness to be a conflict that has at its base a war over global finance which is currently privately led and managed. If we come out the other side of our current madness without extinction you can rest assured that there will be another Bretton Woods meeting of the minds and a new financial foundation will be laid for the world going forward from that meeting which will sovereign nation finance at its core instead of the private families of now.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2016 4:55 utc | 113

Saudi Arabia wants to participate in Raqqa offensive

“The kingdom is committed to the fight against ISIS in Syria as part of an international coalition, including air sorties delegated to it, whether from within the kingdom or via its warplanes stationed at the Turkish Incirlik base,” he told Al-Arabiya on Thursday.

Assiri stated that Saudi Arabia would not use ground forces during the offensive because the US wants local Syrian forces to conduct the operation.

They won't use their ground forces ... ISIS ... because they'll be withdrawing them to Syria. The Saudi warplanes from the KSA or Turkey will be piloted by the same folks who piloted the Belgian planes over Syria the other day, I imagine.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 28 2016 5:24 utc | 114

@ jfl about the House of Saud fighting itself

I read that too and scratched my head a bit. It is either getting down to show time and the the Saudi's are trying to cover their ass so to speak or they see their spawn as turning on them and want to destroy the "evidence" before it comes back to haunt them, again, so to speak.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2016 5:29 utc | 115

Any MoA folks customers of AT&T? You may want to read this article. You may be paying them to disrespect/sell your privacy

Its all about profit trumping (pun intended) public rights to privacy and the laws be damed.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 28 2016 5:54 utc | 116

@115 psycho

I think it's just like the US fighting al CIAduh. They're not. Just going through the motions, using the 'war on IS' as cover as we lay waste Iraq, Syria, Libya ... Saudi Arabia will be under US direction, providing 'local color', and taking the heat for all the civilian deaths, just as in Yemen.

People need to view the US through the same lens they view NAZI Germany. It's true that the US is using employing Sitzkreig rather than Blitzkreig, but it works out better for its MIC that way. The endless string string of serial aggressions and war crimes is just the same. Germany's run lasted from 1936 to 1945, while the US has managed to stretch that to 2001 to 20016, so far.

But the harder they come the harder they fall, one and all.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 28 2016 6:23 utc | 117

@jdmckay | Oct 28, 2016 12:24:05 AM | 111

Only once in 5,000 years history, they invaded Vietnam and got a good beating. China industrialization in earnest from mid 70's. I was working for an American company as marine manager in a SEA port, boarded a Chinese cargo ship for an O/B emergency repaired on a French Rateau turbocharger. They (rank - Political Commissioner, Captain and last Chief engineer) wanna meets the "boss" so to speak before begin work. My opinion China still between stone age and 3rd world.

In early 90 travel alone extensively on business, HK-Shenzhen as gateways into China by trains, roads and commercial flights (Russian’s aircraft). To cities, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenyang, Nanjing, Chunking, Tianjin, Suzhou, Hangzhou and Chongqing.

All foreigners stayed in States sanction hotels and used foreign exchange certificate (FEC) currency. NO traveler check, credit cards, or RMB, carried US$ as reserved. In cities like Shanghai and Beijing, Holiday Inn, Hilton etc. accept US$. I like Beijing and Shenyang. Shenyang where I do most of my business and Qing’s dynasty summer palaces and heavy industry base. To be polite, they're crooks.

This chap Jeff J. Brown exaggerates, but overall he is correct base on my business and pleasures travel over the years.

Posted by: Jack Smith | Oct 28 2016 6:42 utc | 118

Since this thread is coming to an end and the election less than a fortnight away, it is unlikely anything I have presented here or previously will survive in public memory, given the nature of the beast. For that, I haven't a concern. Already reports are adrift of voting machine fraud (early voters in Texas IIRC). My attempts to warn have been met with obdurate beliefs when silence hasn't prevailed. Not one reply contained any rational or fact based argument, the best was a blizzard of factoids, insignificant, blathering and drivelish but profoundly believed to have substance, all evidence to the contrary. [The effort of that particular writer was sufficient to mount a reply but disagreement was not abated although providing an opportunity to demonstrate adult behaviour without the need to demonise one another was indeed worthwhile.] The reality of numeracy will prevail irregardless of strongly held beliefs, of that I'm certain. Those choosing to vote their political 'morality' will have absolutely no effect upon the outcome of the election. All they will do is strengthen the signal to noise ratio needed for vote rigging to transpire without notice, as well as providing a supply of participating voters from which to fund vote rigging by machines - nobody will know or suspect the difference. But these moral voter's obduracy will win out against all reason - so be it, they cannot be reasoned with. Even those abstaining from voting will be utilised to provide additional support for the vote rigging as well as those whose being has transpired, the zombie swarms awaiting something to do. No resource will be under utilised this time around, the stake is too enormous, the ring of wealth and power must be possessed. The message must be understood - either vote effectively now or accept the consequences. What ever may be in 2020 is irrelevant and chimera distraction for the herd that follow such non-sense. All voting schemes not in place are dreams of fools. Look at the system with clear vision, trust your lying eyes (they are all you have) and act accordingly.

This election has become boring and without further interest. Those participating, do your damnedest to be counted with fidelity, trust not sweet promises or lying lips.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Oct 28 2016 10:21 utc | 119

@119 FTB
Yep, agreed. While we all would like to believe in a 20 year voting plan to see the 2 party system cracked open, it is just wishful thinking. Sad and true. The US electoral system has been so rigged towards the two party system that change could only ever come from within - and I think everyone can see just that right now with the levelling of the Republican who else but one of the system's own creation.

People gotta stop looking for Jesus in their candidate and simply find someone to oppose the beast. And the over the top media collusion against The Don has made a hero out of Trump. As much as Stein is the sanity the world needs, they really need to start campaigning for 2020 on November 9.

Face it, Trump is not a Republican...he's an independent or libertarian who has used the Republican platform - or perhaps he's an old school republican, what the party used to be and 2016 is the revolution. Ironically, Hillary is an outright neoliberal neocon disguised as a Democrat. It's all fucked up.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 28 2016 11:55 utc | 120

To refer to zionism as a "sickness" is a form of dehumanization of the victim.
Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28, 2016 12:47:44 AM | 112

Remember folks, rufie is the guy that laughs when informed, with evidence, of Zionist plans to steal all of the few palestinian water sources the zionists have not already stolen. He laughs at the victims of the planned theft.

Here he is now hypocritically pretending to have concern for "victims" when the truth is rufie only every "cares" when the "victims" are jewish.

Zionism is racism, its a racist supremacist exclusionary fascist political philosophy, (as people like racist rufie prove everytime they open their mouths on the subject. )

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 11:56 utc | 121

in re 96, 97.

The Sturmbannfuehrer speaks and rallies the shock troops.

The beef from the "antizionists," BTW, is that I'm insufficient zealous in condemning the illegal settlements and the brutalitiy needed to maintain them.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28 2016 12:03 utc | 122

I don't recall such evidence being presented. But had it been, I would not have laughed. Stealing the water is part and parcel with destroying the olive groves of the Palestinians, Herr Sturmbannfuehrer.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28 2016 12:05 utc | 123

No - the beef is that you are a closet Zionist pretending to be otherwise.

This is why no one takes you seriously here anymore, once it became obvious that you are merely a Zionist pretending to be otherwise - simply shouting "Sturmbannfuehrer" (itself a very Zionist reaction) at anyone pointing out your complete hypocrisy, won't fool anyone.

"Insufficient zealous" is of course your suitably duplicitous way of trying to dismiss the charge - so far I have seen you rushing to defend any slight on Zionism, laughing at claims of Palestinian victim-hood, as well as praising the extreme right-wing of Judeo-fascism. All the while pretending to be non-Zionist politically leftist - but those are not the actions of someone from the left, nor are they the actions of a non-Zionist- they are the actions of a pro-zionist racist, Rufie.

You're not fooling anyone

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 12:13 utc | 124

it's like james said, racist Rufie, "i think anyone who follows zionism and can find a way to justify what israel does under it's name is a sick puppy.. . . combo of israel/zionisms acts, with bds and an awareness of what a sickness zionism is will turn many more away from anyone who wants to hold to zionism..

Posted by: james | Oct 27, 2016 10:54:52 PM | 110

"Sick puppy" seems like a fair description of you, racist Rufie

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 12:24 utc | 125

You've seen all this? Really? You've only been leaving your droppings here a short time, and I have said little if anything about Israel or Palestine in that time. Wishful thinking, perhaps. Or hallucinations, maybe.

I have family and friends who are Jews, and I would prefer not to see them driven into the sea by a pack of jihadis. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza must end, and the Palestinians compensated for the damage.

They need to held to account for their war crimes dating back to the assault in 1967 on the USS Liberty and the 80's Sabra and Shatila massacres by their Phalangist proxies in Lebanon.

I don't see this as tracking with praise for the Israeli right, Herr Sturmbannfuehrer.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28 2016 12:25 utc | 126

Here's some more boffo comedy material, from America's Most Fabulous Presidential Humorist, the Day-Glo Orange Duckhead Dictator. Elections? We don't need no stinking elections. It's the will of the Volk that proclaims our Fearless Leader! Isn't that right, Herr Sturmbannfuehrer?

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28 2016 12:29 utc | 127

It's too little too late now racist Rufie - everyone here already knows that you're a racist Zionist - we all saw you being racist Zionist when given the chance, so trying to deny it now won't help you one little bit

I have family and friends who are Jews, and I would prefer not to see them driven into the sea by a pack of jihadis.

hahaha - thank you racist Rufie - your immediate dash to "defend" yourself with one of the most dishonest and well-worn Judeo-Fascist tropes ("drive us into the sea!!") is all the evidence one needs

Any knowledgeable (non-zionist natch) person here knows there's absolutely zero chance of any jihadis running them into the sea - knowledgeable persons here know that it is the Judeo-Fascists that are trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea (or drive them off their land). Your attempt to completely invert reality is très Judeo-fascist, Monsieur Racist Rufus.

Dishonesty is after all the Zionist modus operandi

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 12:42 utc | 128


Had to look it up. So often we see neolibcons calling the kettle black. They are fundamentally deceptive. So I wonder ...

If Cyberspace/Mindspace is considered the new 'battleground', are Obamabots and Hillbots like rufus the new version of Sturmbannfuehrer?

Rally the mensches! We must have thought purity!

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

If history has taught us anything, it is this: Beware those who deem themselves exceptional.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 28 2016 13:34 utc | 129

Jack Smith @ 118.

Only once in 5,000 years, they invaded Vietnam and got a good beating.

With all due respect, I beg to differ. They occupied until +/- 1500. It wasn't brutal, but was very hostile.

They also armed/financed Khymer Rouge.

This is very much in Vietnamese consciousness, kept live by China's aggressive but (comparatively) small incursions and aggressive actions within undisputed VN waters somewhat regularly. The oil derrick "incidents", bunch of very aggressive fishing "incursions" and couple times they actually sunk small VN fishing boats. Modern history (say last 300 years) IMO, multiple countries have demonstrated little regard for Vietnamese sovereignty & world community hasn't seemed to give a rip.

Having spent so much time there lately, gotten to know them and become familiar with all this from their perspective, I've come to think of them as a "forgotten" country. On a much smaller scale compared to China, what Vietnam has accomplished since Nixon pulled us out is just as remarkable as China.

I'll leave it at that, other then just saying my experience in VN in recent years (first time I have ever been there) has been nothing short of wonderful. I love it there, same with the people.

When were you last in China (early 90's)? I think you'd find it much, much different now.

To be polite, they're crooks.


This chap Jeff J. Brown exaggerates, but overall he is correct base on my business and pleasures travel over the years.

I think you both exaggerate a bit. :)

Anyway, thx for the read.

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 28 2016 13:59 utc | 130

@129 JR
Yeah it's a tired old Zionist formula. Hide behind holocaust, commit holocaust.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 28 2016 14:00 utc | 131

MadMax2 @131

Such an exaggeration doesn't help.

The neolibcon velvet glove may be more dangerous than the Nazi iron fist because the tyranny is gradual and masked.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 28 2016 14:39 utc | 132

Jack Smith, that was an interesting interview about China. Not mentioned is that China is re-writing its Constitution, which will come into force late ’17 or in '18 (if voted in..) Idk the details, I doubt anybody outside China does besides some invisible ppl, except for one thing: They are collaborating with some Swiss ‘experts’. Why? Because - some similarities.

On the face of it, CH is - and it truly is - a ‘free market’ and ‘free contract’ place (insofar as such a state of affairs exists at all), but when ‘the ppl’ ultimately own everything thru the power of initiative (referendum) and can write in any law…- Say, though many objections and crits. are poss - everything changes or at least works differently.

The Chinese, reportedly, are going to adopt one of the top parts of the preamble, which states (my paraphr.) that on any matter that comes before any court, if no legislation exists to bring down a decision, the ‘judge’ must, a) put himself in the place of the potential, imaginary, legislator, and so to speak, ‘invent’ a new principle, b) must comform himself to instituted, conventional, informal practices, which are ‘generally accepted’, c) must take a decision, not shirk his duty. (No sending it off to limbo or a higher court.) (In CH these cases thus take on a weight of ‘potential new jurisprudence.’)

Necessary in a system which rests on succint Const. articles and a law-book which is reduced to core issues. (E.g. CH labor law is 15-30 pages, French labor law is 2,970 pages in dense print.)

F labor law, download offered

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 28 2016 15:18 utc | 133

Hide behind holocaust, commit holocaust.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 28, 2016 10:00:30 AM | 131

Such an exaggeration doesn't help.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 28, 2016 10:39:25 AM | 132

It's a pretty good description of what people like racist Rufus do all the time.

They hide the current holocaust being carried out by making reference to the jewish holocaust of the past. All in order to silence.

And when that doesn't work they will switch immediately to screaming something like "Sturmbannfuehrer" - it's childish and completely transparently obvious at this stage.

It's an old Zionist trick, which you may have noticed racist Rufus resorts to with a regularity you could set your watch by.

Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni; "Anti-semitic", "its a trick we always use it" -

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 15:19 utc | 134

According to the mainstream media, in a recent speech in West Palm Beach, Donald Trump finally completely lost it. Sawing the air with his tiny hands in a unmistakeably Hitlerian manner, he spat out a series of undeniably hateful anti-Semitic code words … like “political establishment,” “global elites” and, yes, “international banks.” He even went so far as to claim that “corporations” and their (ahem) “lobbyists” have millions of dollars at stake in this election, and are trying to pass the TTP, not to benefit the American people, but simply to enrich themselves. He then went on to accuse the media of collaborating with “the Clinton machine,” presumably to benefit these “global elites” and “international banks” and “lobbyists.”

Now, a lot of folks didn’t immediately recognize the secret meanings of these fascistic code words, and so mistakenly assumed that “global elites” referred to the transnational capitalist ruling classes, and that “lobbyists” referred to actual lobbyists, and that “banks” meant … well … you know, banks.

As it turned out, this was completely wrong.

None of these words actually meant what they meant, not in "anti-Semitic CodeSpeak".

So the mainstream media translated for us.
“Political establishment” meant “the Jews.”
“Global elites” also meant “the Jews.”
“Banks” meant “Jews.”
“Lobbyists” meant “Jews.”
Even “corporate media,” meant “Jews.”

Apparently, Trump’s entire speech was a series of secret dog-whistle signals to his legions of neo-Nazi goons, who, immediately following Clinton’s victory, are going to storm out of their hidey holes, frontally attack the US military, overthrow the US government, and, yes, you guessed it … “kill the Jews.”

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 15:35 utc | 135

Mondoweiss: Draft of Clinton letter called BDS ‘odious,’ ‘unconscionable’ attack on ‘legitimacy of Zionism’

An email released today by Wikileaks reveals the strong pressure of the Israel lobby inside the Hillary Clinton campaign. A draft of Clinton’s famous letter opposing Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel makes what was actually sent out look almost sweet by comparison. The draft called the BDS movement “odious” and “unconscionable” and an attack on “the legitimacy of Zionism.”

That June 25, 2015 draft also included fulsome praise of Jews:

Jews have led the way on human rights and civil rights, always raising the bar. It is wrong to ignore this tradition and use the tools that were applied to apartheid to undermine the legitimacy of Zionism.

The draft was worked on by Jake Sullivan, Clinton’s foreign policy aide, along with the campaign’s ambassador to the organized Jewish community, Washington lawyer Stu Eizenstat, former deputy treasury secretary under Bill Clinton.

The draft stated that Israel shares US “fundamental values and interests”:

This campaign against Israel, a nation that shares our fundamental values and interests, is unfair and unconscionable.

Clinton’s letter to Haim Saban, dated July 2, 2015 left out “odious” and “unfair and unconsionable,” the shared “fundamental values and interests,” as well as the praise for Jews and the salute to the “legitimacy of Zionism.”

In fact, the letter seems toned down by comparison to its predecessor. The strongest emotional expression was “alarm:” “I am writing to express my alarm over the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement.” Even the word “appalled” in the draft became “concerned”– about efforts to compare Israel to South Africa.

The email shows the in-house pressure on the Clinton campaign to go even further than it did in pandering to the organized Jewish community. Eizenstat talked about Clinton having a big meeting with Jewish leaders over BDS, including many rightwingers and Republicans, maybe even Sheldon Adelson!
But both men expressed the fear that such a meeting would get out of control. They then resolved to send out a letter to 30-plus members of the organized Jewish community. In the end it was sent to just one of them, Saban.


“HRC is now thinking that she can send a letter to a broader group — like all the names you’ve offered and then a few more — RATHER than hold a meeting. She is now worried about how to manage a meeting given competing perspectives and the like.”

I like the idea, since a meeting has to be inclusive, yet this might make it unmanageable, divisive (J Street vs. AIPAC), and lengthy, as everyone will have to be heard.

In that email, too, you will find Eizenstat’s suggested list of recipients. All the heavy hitters of the Israel lobby, including many rightwingers. Eizenstat even notioned inviting Adelson. Though Eizenstat redlined the idealistic young Jews of the Open Hillel movement, calling it “controversial” and siding with the head of Hillel International, Eric Fingerhut. Excerpts:

Eric Fingerhut, President of Hillel (he has had to handle the controversial “Open Hillel” movement on some California campuses and a J Street confrontation).

Jeremy Ben-Ami (J Street)(I do not think he should be excluded)

Mort Zuckerman

Ronald Lauder (President of World Jewish Congress)(former US Ambassador to Austria, and a Republican, but must be invited given his position).

Lynn Schusterman, Oklahoma (large funder of Hillel and many other Jewish causes).

Haim Saban (recently teamed with Sheldon Adelson to form anti-BDS group of wealthy donors, but already caused some controversy by excluding left-leaning groups. I do not see how Adelson can be invited because he is such a strident GOP-supporter and would be a potentially disruptive force in a meeting. But you could check with Saban).

Professor Deborah Lipstadt (Emory University).

Dov Zakheim (former senior DOD official in Bush Administration; thoughtful and wise)…

Clinton sent out her letter against BDS as a means of countering her eventual support for the Iran deal inside the Jewish community, as earlier emails disclosed.
Oh, and here is another email showing the pressure of the lobby inside the campaign. Last January, megadonor Haim Saban pushed findings to the Clinton camp that Clinton could change campus perceptions of BDS by speaking out about her anti-BDS letter. Saban wrote to the head of Jewish outreach for the campaign, Sarah Bard:
Sarah we should Talk about how to capitalize on this.I have some ideas and would appreciate your thoughts when we talk next.

Saban attached a note from an employee, Amitai Raziel, titled “HRC’s Anti-BDS Letter / Impact on Campus.”
Hi All – I thought you might find this of interest: the Israel on Campus Coalition held a recent call regarding polling that they conducted this past semester. I’ll send a fuller sum later, but there was one statistic that I think you would appreciate:
* Once informed about Hillary Clinton’s letter opposing BDS, the favorable/unfavorable views held by students regarding pro-BDS arguments shifted 11 points in the right direction.

Just a reflection that she remains a trusted source to students on these issues, and I’m glad to see she is out there conveying this viewpoint.

Sarah Bard wrote back to Saban within the hour:

Haim Thank you for sharing. I look forward to discussing and strategizing on this with you. Alex and I are in touch to schedule tomorrow. Again, thank you. Sarah

Cause that’s how you treat a big donor!

The Democratic Party Platform duly contained opposition to BDS

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 15:44 utc | 136

now that ph refuse to play ball with uncle scam
in its 'asia pivot' boondoggle, u'd think murkka would pack up and go home,

uncle scam sez,
*not on your life !*

*US to Go Beyond THAAD Deployment in S Korea if N Korea Threat Persists*

everybody and his dog should know the drill by now...

the next thing you know, murkka , sk would poke nk and provoke a reaction,'

that might not even be necessary, nk would prolly step up to the plate by itself with another missile test, complete with a warning to 'wipe out murkka, jp'.

hey presto, uncle scam gets another carte blanche to push more wmd at china's

nk, just like the 'al qaeda', isis, the gift that keeps on giving.

Posted by: denk | Oct 28 2016 16:20 utc | 137

jdmckay, you're mistaken that I have a "gotcha" attitude about Solar. I pointed out to you that Joe Romm's story to the effect that Solar delivers electricity at half the price of coal is false. I think you're hostile towards documented countervailing info because you have made it a part of your identity to be loyal to the ideas of catastrophic global warming and Solar as a viable solution. Am I wrong? Don't you feel personally attacked when I present information that contradicts your conclusions? You can't do science or real information that way.

It would be wonderful if Solar were developed to do the job. Just consider: We wd be free of the oligarchs in a very important area: energy. The sun is decentralized power widely available which could then set industry & homes free of the grid-- allowing small pockets of development anywhere. Independence for us, and development for the poor countries.

Because technology's possibilities are boundless I suspect that non-solar technology close to free energy is already known, and blocked. Look at the full context, jd. Do you know who the people are who are developing Solar technology-- or at least who are controlling the pursestrings of it? Unless the international oligarchs are overthrown they will never permit energy independent of them.

The purpose of leading us down the renewables path is to spend resources without result. Do you know what happens to the "sustainable development" subsidies we spend and make others spend abroad? When the loans can't be repaid territory rich in natural resources & ag land is forfeit to organizations like Rothschilds' GEF. There's so much that you don't know about the wider background of what you think you are fighting for. But you won't look. You are not even troubled that you have no real data in support of this limited point about the present viability of Solar. I guess "the links are there someplace" is good enough if your emotion is strong enough.

AGW is a hoax bought by the oligarchs. The underlying source of the multiple stories you saw in support of solar and of catastrophic warming is the foundations controlled by Rockefeller, Soros and the other oligarchs. They are funding Sierra Club, World Wildlife Fund, etc. to push global warming so they can control industrial development everywhere. This is documented
CA,%20US%20Senate%20Minority%20Report,%20Billionaires%20Club%20(1).pdf "The Environmental Chain of Command" Senate Report.

I continue to be open to scientific data in support of AGW and I request it from anyone who has such.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 28 2016 16:55 utc | 138

I pointed out to you that Joe Romm's story to the effect that Solar delivers electricity at half the price of coal is false.

An awful lot of Joe Romm's stories are false or are factually distorted

This should come as no surprise - up until 2014 Romm was paid by George Soros to be an attack dog - I doubt he has changed his M.O. since then.

I think Soros stopped paying him because he wasn't much good at even being merely an attack dog - his website, despite all the filthy Soros lucre poured into it over the years still only gets a fraction of the traffic a website like WattsUpWithThat gets -

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 18:03 utc | 139

None of these renewables would ever be in anyway profitable if they didn't have laws mandating that all their power generated must be purchased by the grid even when it is not needed, and that they must have hydro-carbon sources like Coal and Gas electricity plants operating as a fall-back option, for when they (frequently) fail to deliver the required power

The South Australian black out — A grid on the edge. There were warnings that renewables made it vulnerable

Entire state of South Australia has power black out because of flawed climate change [remenwables] energy policy

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 18:12 utc | 140

You are not even troubled that you have no real data in support of this limited point about the present viability of Solar.

Yes - curious that all his "evidence" came from the one site - one that until recently was heavily financed by Billionaire speculator George Soros.

What aew the odds that Billionaire speculator George Soros has invested in "renewables" - Pretty high I'd say, given how his attack dog Romm likes to lie about Solar/renewables

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28 2016 18:16 utc | 141

Mosul in the news and Yemen out of them?

Posted by: Mina | Oct 28 2016 19:26 utc | 142

At Chase Manhattan's headquarters June, 1980 meeting between China delegation, Rockefeller and 300 US corporations charted a course for economic and technical cooperation between the economies of China and the US. Whereupon billions of annual Western investment began, and many Fortune 500 opened China headquarters, including substantial R &D facilities. Technology transfers including military tech have occurred.

Obviously the intention was to entice China's oligarchs to join in producing a global oligarchy. The plan has always been that this would be regionally administered-- especially at the beginning-- and that China would administer Asia. Have China's oligarchs agreed to this or do they oppose a global oligarchy in which they have a part?
The 8 Chinese who oversaw the opening of China to Western financial & business interests are called the "eight immortals" and their descendants the "princelings." All are fabulously wealthy of course.

Do you think they prefer democracy, or a worldwide oligarchy that preserves their position?
I don't know to what extent they rule in the economic interests of the Chinese people, or whether there is political dissent. Nor do I know if the South China Sea dispute is real, but it hasn't affected FDI (Foreign Direct Investment). I wish I knew someone else who is doing a little factual research. If anyone is interested, the footnoted sources to the Corbett Report's China coverage look promising.

I do know that TPTB have always intended an end to US hegemony, as a step in furthering the the NWO of global oligarchy-- just as the collapse of the dollar is a step towards the global currency.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 28 2016 20:08 utc | 143

@jdmckay | Oct 28, 2016 9:59:05 AM | 130

I was in Vietnam only once, visits my classmate's parent. Stayed in their home for a week. It was a beautiful and still peaceful country just after Ngo Dinh Diem assassination. Amerika decided regimes changed.

Vietnam’s landmass and much of Eurasia (east, west, south and north) were also part of China. China in Chinese Zhongguo or Chung-Kuo mean Middle Kingdom. Got it?

Wouldn't recognize China if I drop in today. Back than everyone travels on bicycles, only States owned companies can afford cars.

We are here to shares life experienced and not who is smarter. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Can't dispute what written, but my personal encountered, in business and pleasure travels either confirm or dispute what other had to say.

Have a good weekend. Cheers. :-)

Posted by: Jack Smith | Oct 28 2016 22:35 utc | 144

@Noirette | Oct 28, 2016 11:18:43 AM | 133

Can't comments on China's Constitution and laws am not up-to-date. Glad you find the article interesting. I dun normally like long articles. The topic cover - wide range of issue which I'm familiar from my ancestry background and travels and share with MoA.

My opinion, Amerika, Japan and EU are spent force. This will be China Century if they continue what Deng Xiaoping envisions. Amerika cannot stop China short of a war or instigate another regime change - Joseph Wong's umbrella movement in HK .

Three world's fastest supercomputer No1 and No. 2 in China and miles ahead of the No. 3 in US. Five astronauts in two Space stations above us. China on its own launch Suzhou 11 and MSM ignore it.

If remove "commie" from China it looks like a new democracy, like Russia. China with 1.4 billions populations’ much easy to manage than Amerika or India. Agrees, easy or ‘free market’ and ‘free contract’ to do business - if stay clear of politics like Russia.

Posted by: Jack Smith | Oct 28 2016 23:43 utc | 145

Oh, I forgot, they were to be driven merely to the shore, not the sea....

So no Muslim anywhere wants the destruction of Israel?

I would not think it to be the entirety of the Arab or Muslim world, nor either a majority, but I think a substantial part of the ummah wouldn’t mind seeing the Israelis pushed out. Certainly that is the overtone from the refusal to recognize the Israeli state.

Such calls were made immediately after the United Nations approved the establishment of the State of Israel. But see this video, the work of a production house with close ties to the Revolutionary Guards, for more recent evidence.

Wealthy Gulf states push and promote Wahabism. They want to purge Islam of "apostates," i.e. all Shiites and those Sunnis who disagree with them. Islam allows for those accused of apostasy to be killed. It is this ideology motivating any number of jihadi groups.

And so what do groups like the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and other Gulf-funded fanatics propose to do with the Jews, once they occupy Jerusalem?

This certainly looks like a call to drive the Jews into the sea, justified – or at least prettied up - by Islamic theology. The “...Ummah has been promised victory and consolidation when it abides by the prerequisite causative means, ie. when it arms itself with steeds of war and prepares itself to fight for the Cause of Allah.” Riddle me this – how might it come about the “the State of the Jews will perish” after “the occurrence of a battle with the Jews wherein they will be killed” without the citizens of that state dying?

So I would say that, sadly, the fears are not entirely groundless.

I have said before that the reversal of the settlements would transform the dynamics of the region. The BDS campaign in what was styled "the Free World" (back in the original Cold War) could mobilize enough public opinion to begin this process.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 29 2016 0:24 utc | 146

So no Muslim anywhere wants the destruction of Israel?

see now there you go lying again Monsieur Racist Rufus, cos what I said was

    Any knowledgeable (non-zionist natch) person here knows there's absolutely zero chance of any jihadis running them into the sea - knowledgeable persons here know that it is the Judeo-Fascists that are trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea (or drive them off their land). Your attempt to completely invert reality is très Judeo-fascist, Monsieur Racist Rufus.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 1:09 utc | 147

but you keep banging on incessantly about "they want to drive us all into the see!!" if you want to - if you think that's going to help you win the argument - and I'll just keep pointing how the actual reality on the ground is the complete opposite of how you are dishonestly painting it.

Dishonesty and duplicity, and reality inversion, is after all what you Zionist Judeo-fascists excel at, so it's what every one here expects from you anyway.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 1:15 utc | 148

And so what do groups like the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and other Gulf-funded fanatics propose to do with the Jews, once they occupy Jerusalem?

hahahahahah - Oh Monsieur Racist Rufus with these ridiculously far-fetched fairy-tales you are spoiling us.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 1:19 utc | 149

It's Aleppo and Raffa in Syria these Gulf-Funded Headchoppers are occupying, not Jerusalem.

Syria is a neighbour of the Zionist Judeo-Fascist state of Israel, and considered an "enemy" - so these ISIS Gulf-funded bogeymen, that are apparently such an existential threat to the poor little Judeo-fascist State of Israel are actually attacking it's enemies for it. Wow - you'd think the Judeo-fascists should be thanking them, for that service they are rendering them, wouldn't you?

And the only occupiers in Jerusalem are the Jewish ones - and the fascist occupiers in Jerusalem are murdering the occupied and stealing their land and homes from them

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 1:30 utc | 150

I guess that whole "inversion of reality" thing must get quite addictive once you get hooked on it, Monsieur Racist Rufus, no?

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 1:31 utc | 151

Well I can see why rufus might be concerned.....if the Arabs do ever take over in Israel who will pick the grapefruit? Will the swimming pools get drained? Will felafel will be felafel again?

Posted by: dh | Oct 29 2016 1:49 utc | 152

No you wont see this on western MSM
Violent crowd attacks, insults homeless woman guarding Trump’s Hollywood star (VIDEOS)

Posted by: TheLsL | Oct 29 2016 7:16 utc | 154

Punished because they are seen as too conservative? Same in Somalia? They were already starving before the war so ... what now.
(if anyone could unblock this page)

Posted by: Mina | Oct 29 2016 9:26 utc | 155

Posted by: TheLsL | Oct 29, 2016 3:16:49 AM | 154

She's spewing hate, bro!

The idiocy of the avg american

THIS. These people are too stupid to know just how stupid they are, and if you were to try and explain it they'd still be too stupid for you to ever even hope they'd get it. The average American.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 10:31 utc | 156

. . . and the irony is these people consider themselves to be much nicer, much better people than the Trump supporters. "We are the better half" they think.
And you can be sure that afterwards they still do.

That's how totally stupid and ugly is the average american

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 10:38 utc | 157

German article: Attack on school in Syria is a fake:

Feel free to translate and use it.

Posted by: Jens | Oct 29 2016 11:47 utc | 158

Transcript of Putin's speech and Q&A afterwards at the 13th Valdai discussion group from the Kremlin.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 29 2016 12:06 utc | 159

I would assume that it would be the Palestinians not only picking but selling and profiting from it, once they regain the West Bank and Gaza.

But actually, I seem to recall that the Israelis began to replace Palestinian with foreign labor after the first intifada. They did not want the Palestinians to be in a position, by withdrawing their labor power, to affect the Israeli economy.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 29 2016 12:17 utc | 160

once they regain the West Bank and Gaza.

here's something to cheer you up, Monsieur Racist Rufus: it'll probably never happen cos people like your friend Avigdor Lieberman (born: Moldova) plans to kill them all, and soon

Israeli Defense Minister says next Gaza war will be the last ‘because we will completely destroy them’

cos you know, dem dere Gazans is tryin to "drive him into the Sea!!!!!"

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 12:46 utc | 161

But see this video, the work of a production house with close ties to the Revolutionary Guards, for more recent evidence.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 28, 2016 8:24:35 PM | 146

That must be a simply terrifying video, Monsieur Racist Rufus.

I don't know how you can sleep well at night, what with all the terrifying things happening . . . . . . . . . in an animated video!!!!!

Shocking stuff I'm sure . . .

[shock!! Horror!! Run fer yer lives, it's an animated video comin to get ya!!]

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 13:46 utc | 162

@112 rufus quote "To refer to zionism as a "sickness" is a form of dehumanization of the victim."

no rufus.. it is calling it what it is. i would call 'wahabbism' the same thing.. when an ideology ( political or religious) gets so toxic that it is blinded by it's vision of intolerance for others, it's a sickness..

Posted by: james | Oct 29 2016 16:11 utc | 163

Posted by: james | Oct 29, 2016 12:11:25 PM | 163

Still, you got to admire his duplicity in trying to mask his attempted defence of Zionist bigotry by wrapping it in a cloak of victim hood, no?

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 16:25 utc | 164

The South Australian black out — A grid on the edge. There were warnings that renewables made it vulnerable
Entire state of South Australia has power black out because of flawed climate change [remenwables] energy policy
Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 28, 2016 2:12:29 PM | 140

Sorry, but that is incorrect. The state-wide outage in SA was caused by the (unexpected) destruction, by cyclonic wind damage, of 20+ Hi Voltage feeder-line towers in several scattered locations. So the HV lines finished up on the ground (= short circuit) resulting in the entire system dropping into self-preservation mode and shutting down. The bribed fascist Turnbull Govt is anti-renewable because they're in the pockets of the non-renewable energy sector (coal, oil, LNG) which ALL export their profits. SA has a lot of wind turbines in addition to the ubiquitous (in Oz) household rooftop solar panels.

There are several bizarre aspects to the Turnbull fairytale:
1. Turnbull's Energy Minister came out with the version you've repeated before ANYONE in SA knew the precise details of the full extent of the damage to the grid.
2. SA had access to, and a current agreement to buy, electricity from the neighboring state of Victoria BUT the line from Victoria was one of the several feeder lines damaged by the storm. i.e. there was no functioning grid into which any power from any source could be fed.
3. SA, The Media, and the Public accused Turnbull of lying about the 'renewable' trope.

Turnbull's argument is that SA's over-reliance on renewable energy left a hole in the state's non-renewable base-load capacity. But that argument studiously, and deliberately, ignored the catastrophic damage to the grid rendering it incapable of transmitting any kind of power anywhere. And Turnbull's imaginary hole was amply covered by the agreement with Victoria.

There is an ongoing inquiry by SA and a report will emerge in due course. And it is certain to make Mr Turnbull look even more bribed, dishonest, stupid and eerily inept, than he does now.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 29 2016 17:52 utc | 165

The South Korean Indira Ghandi?
"At the time, Park was serving as acting first lady after her mother was killed in 1974 by a man trying to assassinate her father, military strongman Park Chung-hee, who would be murdered by his own spy chief five years later."

Posted by: Mina | Oct 29 2016 18:49 utc | 166

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 29, 2016 1:52:48 PM | 165

You're probably correct, I have not investigated too deeply what happened in Oz but it's immaterial to the point I was making.

The point I was making is that renewables would have a hard time ever be considered as "commercially profitable" if they didn't have a rigged market of subsidies and laws mandating that all their power generated must be purchased by the grid even when it is not needed, and that they must have hydro-carbon sources like Coal and Gas electricity plants operating as a fall-back option, for when they (frequently) fail to deliver the required power.

Because they DO frequently fail to deliver.

And when not failing to deliver, often they deliver too much power when it is not really needed, thus seriously effecting the the profitability of other, non-renewable, sources while playing havoc with load-balancing on the grid itself.

The net result of all this is a big increase in the cost of power overall without any real benefit for society because coal and Gas plants still need to be operated, though at a much reduced efficiency rate, to serve as a necessary fall-back option for when the solar/wind sources inevitably fall to deliver.

Overall no wins out of this except the heavily subsidised Wind/Solar providers, who essentially profit heavily through the combination of their rigged market and their overall inefficiency.

There are plenty of other examples one could chose from, especially using Germany for example, that prove the point. Oz was just one I chose cos it popped up on Google. But as I say, there are many examples of this in Germany alone.

But essentially, the whole thing is a bit of a scam.

No overall efficiencies are delivered and no there is no overall benefit to society, due to the Coal and Gas plants having to operate anyway due to the very predictable unreliability of Wind/Solar

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29 2016 23:20 utc | 167

Putin once again refusing to bomb the terrorists

Posted by: bbbb | Oct 29 2016 23:25 utc | 168

elijah j m has a newish post up which some here might like to know about.. goes with patrick bahzads latest at sst.

Posted by: james | Oct 30 2016 0:41 utc | 169

Anyone care to speculate about the emails found on Weiner's laptop?

The Daily Mail first broke the news of Weiner's chats with an underage woman on September 21st. Presumeably the FBI would've seized Weiner's computers shortly thereafter.

1. Why was there a delay in revealing Weiner's texting with an underage girl? According to the Daily Mail, the girl had revealed the texting in April to her teacher and father. It seems that they decided to come forward only AFTER Huma decided to divorce Weiner.

The girl's father is a lawyer. Is he connected to the Democratic Party?

2. Is the laptop Huma's, Weiner's, or shared?
It would be logical, I think, for them to have separate laptops. So, why were these emails on Weiner's laptop?

a) Huma forgot that they were there? (Does that make any sense?)

b) Huma gave Weiner her old laptop to use when she was ready to buy another (probably thinking that her emails had been deleted)

c) Weiner took them from Huma's laptop without her knowledge? (to have leverage in their divorce?)

d) Someone (Huma/Wiener/others) put them on the laptop knowing that they would be found? (far-fetched)

I would guess b or c.

4. Why did the FBI/Comey delay in reporting that they had the emails?

a) The emails were in an encrypted archive? (This makes most sense if Hillary was trying to keep a backup of her server - seems doubtful that Huma would've encrypted her email when email security was so lax) If so, how long did it take for the FBI to crack it?

b) the emails were deleted so they had to be forensically recovered

c) FBI/Comey attempt to squash?

d) DOJ interference (we already know DOJ was against Comey's announcement)

5. Why did Huma keep the emails?

a) They are emails to Huma (backup of emails sent to her account on Hillary's private email server?)

b) Huma (innocently) got a backup of Hillary's email server at some point and forgot to delete it - or DID delete it but it can be recovered (or parts of it)

c) Did Hillary ask Huma to stash away an email backup from her server (So Hillary could say that she doesn't have them)?

6. Is Huma now in legal jeopardy? I believe that she had been given immunity. But if she withheld evidence in a criminal investigation, she could be charged.

"Withholding" could also mean not telling investigators that she had retained email on her computer (even if she had previously deleted them).

And if she thought that she had deleted the emails - when did she do this deleting? Was it AFTER the subpoena had been issued?

It seems that the FBI had not previously been provided with the emails that Huma had in her possession. If the FBI wanted to aggressively pursue the case, wouldn't they recommend that Huma be charged immediately?

7. Hillary's call for the FBI to release what they know is a smart political move. But will AG Lynch allow FBI to release info? (DOJ has already tried to block the announcement!!)

If the FBI recommends that Huma is charged, and the DOJ refuses to do so, the need for a special prosecutor would be clear. But that could mean a weeks-long delay.

8. The FBI should already know enough that they can act quickly. But there is likely to be some delay in re-starting (agents having been re-assigned) plus bureaucratic maneuvering.

Could/should the elections be delayed to provide time for more investigation and/or a special prosecutor? Is that even possible?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 30 2016 1:38 utc | 170

Jackrabbit @ 171

> 2. Is the laptop Huma's, Weiner's, or shared?

I've looked. Only thing I could find was Fox "a senior law enforcement official" (???) saying it was shared. So far, FBI is very tight lipped about everything.

The narrowest t private (gmail?) account that got some SOS email? Or Weiner received "sensitive" mails?

Thing is, Comey said they hadn't looked at them yet... whatever "they" are. Maybe nothing there, & Comey just had a brain fart.

I'm w/you... we keep hearing there's no way FBI will complete their "investigation" before election day. I find it very hard to believe they can't pull a few dozen folks, give 'em proper search tools and bust through that in a couple days.

If they don't, as bad as this election is already... there's going to be a long national hangover, especially if when they do release their findings there's nothing there.

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 30 2016 2:16 utc | 171

FBI Dir Comey is being pummeled by the Democratic-friendly press for making his letter public and going against DOJ wishes. They had lauded him only weeks before for the decision not to prosecute (actually he had only decided to NOT RECOMMEND prosecution). But AFAIK Comey merely sent a letter to Congress - it was Congressmen that made his letter public. Newsweek said that he may actually have been legally required to inform Congress.

Comey's letter says:

I am writing to inform you that the investigative team briefed me on this yesterday, and I agreed that the FBI should take appropriate investigative steps designed to allow investigators to review these emails to determine whether they contain classified information, as well as to access their importance to our investigation.

1) Some news outlets (like Vox, though they published the entire letter) have left out the words that I bolded when quoting from the letter. Cutting out that last part makes it seem like an "email review" instead of an ongoing investigation.

2) Some Republicans have said that the investigation has been "re-opened" - but it had actually never been closed.

3) "appropriate investigative steps" is very vague. Does that mean engaging FBI resources (like forensics) or that DOJ has been dragging its feet on issuing a subpoena? I suspect the latter, given DOJ's admonishment and the attack on Comey from the press.

4) Some news outlets are saying that "sources" tell them that Hillary and the campaign have no connection to these newly discovered emails. That seems like mighty convenient reporting!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 30 2016 3:04 utc | 172

Writing in"The Daily Beast", Joy Reid - an MSNBC contributor - claimed that the Republicans had "weaponized" FBI Dir Comey, citing a history of Republican investigations or theatened investigations against the Clinton's.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 30 2016 4:29 utc | 173

And on a totally different subject

The first statement:

Scientists had long ago proposed that common swifts, a medium-sized migratory bird, might spend most of their lives in flight, but it is only now that they have managed to prove that these birds can actually fly for most of the year -- 10 months -- without landing.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 30 2016 5:12 utc | 174

Rufus Magister: 'To refer to zionism as a "sickness" is a form of dehumanization of the victim'

I totally agree with this, except for one bit.

Palestinians are not the only victims of Zionism. Only the most obvious, directly impacted one.

But yes, by treating the evil as a mere "sickness", we ignore the fact that evil takes away human lives and future of a great many. We treat the perpetrator (Zionists) as someone who's a bit ill and needs a cure, which will not only mend them but also sort everything else out ex machina. Absolute unabridged bullshit. The amount of damage already caused just in the Middle East will take generations to bring back to 0 impact, ignoring all the opportunity cost and generations wasted in fixing something that should never have been broken again in the first place.

Israel is ongoing European aggression on Middle Eastern / Arab soil. In my opinion, just dismantling Israel is not nearly enough. The original source of evil, Great Britain, the House of Windsor and The City of London, must be permanently neutralised.

Posted by: Quadriad | Oct 30 2016 8:31 utc | 175

@ 175 psycho

Thanks for the news on swifts, psycho. It's a bouyant dream throughout the night, and an uplifting thought at dawn.

The total population of the world's vertebrates has decreased by 58% over the 42 year interval from 1970 to 2012.

The Global Living Planet Index shows a decline of 58 per cent (range: -48 to -66 per cent) between 1970 and 2012. Trend in population abundance for 14,152 populations of 3,706 species monitored across the globe between 1970 and 2012.

The world's human population has increased by (7,080,072,417 - 3,691,172,616)/3,691,172,616 = 91.81% over that same period.

As b points out, Facts have no bias. I am not anti-human, I just note the genocidal proclivities of our human race : Zionists, Wahabists, North Americans, Europeans, Chinese ... 58% of the vertebrate population living on our planet have gone out of existence since my 27th birthday. I can't think of anything I've done in the past forty-years that has in any way acted to reverse that trend. And the population of people like myself has nearly doubled over the same period.

The forecast : more of the same. Mother earth is singing you just keep on usin' me 'til you use me up. No one is lis'nin'. Nobody here but us motherfuckin' humans.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30 2016 8:56 utc | 176

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 29, 2016 7:20:54 PM | 168

My pro-renewable bias probably helped to obscure the message you were trying to convey and, of course, your perspective on the practical shortcomings of the Renewable Energy 'industry' is beyond dispute.

However, imo, Renewable Energy's dilemna is merely an early sign that Neoliberalism's insistence that every productive human endeavour must be privately-owned, profitable and monopolistic-but-competitive (no matter how artificial and contrived this competition may be) doesn't serve the Public Good very well.

Unfortunately, it would be true to say that the rush to adopt Renewable Energy could/should have been postponed until practical methods of storing excess energy had been explored and perfected.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 30 2016 10:24 utc | 177

@178 hoarse

If one tenth the money spent on war and tertiary fossil-fuel production were spent on hydrogen storage of solar energy, and if the focus were on on-site production, not centralized facilities to feed the grid, we'd have all the energy we needed stored in a natural non-polluting form. The reasons that hasn't been done are the same old reasons : greed, sloth, and stupidity on the part of the deaf, dumb, and blind 1% who are in charge of the TNC mismanagement class and its dependent governments.

Putin made the point last year at the General Assembly. Although Russia derives a good part of its livelihood from fossil-fuel production, Putin is more than a fossil-fueler and can see a couple of generations into the future. And he is not blinded by his addiction to illusory monetary 'wealth' and more and more of the same.

None of the proven reserves of petro-carbons will 'go to waste', they will instead replace present industrial and structural materials - the effective production and storage of hydrogen will depend upon them - they are far too precious to burn.

But the greedy, lazy, and stupid ogres are in charge, and their governments pander to them. We must beat back the financiers. the fusiliers, and the fossil-fuelers if we are to have any future at all on earth.

And we will. It will come about. The 'payoff' is there waiting to harvested by the outsiders.

This sanctimonious misrepresentation of 'greed' and 'competition' at the heart of human progress will collapse and give way to cooperation. The present fossil-fuel TNCs will be left choking in their own coal-dust, sucked under in the pools of their own bituminous black gold. And not a moment too soon.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30 2016 12:00 utc | 178

in re 129 --

Of course you didn't know. You the Mann, swillin' that Green Tea from your Make America Great Again (TM) mug.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 30 2016 12:50 utc | 179

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30, 2016 8:00:59 AM | 179

The technologies you linked to are too blue-sky, and alien to my background/expertise, for me to evaluate. When I referred to "practical methods of storing excess energy" I had in mind 3 potential alternatives:

1. Storing solar energy as heat in some kind of heat bank which could be used to generate electricity conventionally for a limited period of time. This method is being researched.

2. Storing the electrical output of solar panels and/or wind turbines in batteries. This is already possible but the cost/efficiency ratio of current battery technology makes it impractical to store enough electricity to run a large city for, say, 7 days.

3. Using wind and/or solar power to pump water up to a hydro power reservoir. If this was a good idea then someone would be doing it already, and no-one is doing it - which leads me to conclude that until electricity is deemed to be a global resource requiring a globally-coordinated solution, then entrenched traditional, government-owning monopolies will do their utmost to ensure that no significant progress will be made in this direction until the entrenched monopolies can profit from it.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 30 2016 13:52 utc | 180

Here's the only real news out of Novorossiya of late. The murder of the commander "Motorola" by a bomb. Thought to be Ukrainian special forces behind it.

There is said to be shelling and UAF units on the move along the front, but this is not uncommon. The account seems to suggest some free-lancing by a nationalist volunteer recce unit. We'll see what comes of it.

Posted by: rufus magister | Oct 30 2016 14:01 utc | 181

If one tenth the money spent on war and tertiary fossil-fuel production were spent on hydrogen storage of solar energy, and if the focus were on on-site production, not centralized facilities to feed the grid, we'd have all the energy we needed stored in a natural non-polluting form.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30, 2016 8:00:59 AM | 179

This is somewhat nonsensical - all the money in the world,won't change the laws of physics. Nor will seemingly total incomprehension, nor any amount of wishful thinking, do so either.

Had you bothered to actually fully read the wiki-article you linked on MOF's ( ) you would have read the follow paragraphs

Structural impacts on hydrogen storage capacity

To date, hydrogen storage in MOFs at room temperature is a battle between maximizing storage capacity and maintaining reasonable desorption rates, while conserving the integrity of the adsorbent framework (e.g. completely evacuating pores, preserving the MOF structure, etc.) over many cycles.


An association energy of 22-25 kJ/mol is typical of charge-induced dipole interactions, and so there is interest in the use of charged linkers and metals.[18] The metal–hydrogen bond strength is diminished in MOFs, probably due to charge diffusion, so 2+ and 3+ metal ions are being studied to strengthen this interaction even further. A problem with this approach is that MOFs with exposed metal surfaces have lower concentrations of linkers; this makes them difficult to synthesize, as they are prone to framework collapse. This may diminish their useful lifetimes as well.


Sensitivity to air

MOFs are frequently air/moisture-sensitive. In particular, IRMOF-1 degrades in the presence of small amounts of water at room temperature. Studies on metal analogues have unraveled the ability of metals other than Zn to stand higher water concentrations at high temperatures.[34][35]

To compensate for this, specially constructed storage containers are required, which can be costly.


Structural defects

Structural defects also play an important role in the performance of MOFs. Room-temperature hydrogen uptake via bridged spillover is mainly governed by structural defects, which can have two effects:

1) a partially collapsed framework can block access to pores; thereby reducing hydrogen uptake, and
2) lattice defects can create an intricate array of new pores and channels causing increased hydrogen uptake.[38]

Structural defects can also leave metal-containing nodes incompletely coordinated. This enhances the performance of MOFs used for hydrogen storage by increasing the number of accessible metal centers.[39] Finally, structural defects can affect the transport of phonons, which affects the thermal conductivity of the MOF.[40]

These are real problems with the technology in question, that have been known about for quite some time, and that may not ever be solved.

Simply stating things as you have done shows a basic lack of understanding of such technologies, ignoring not only the actual realistic scope of their potential, but more importantly, their very real physical limitations.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 30 2016 14:02 utc | 182

Nice to see Monsieur Racist Rufus still pretending he's not a closeted Zionist though.

He's probably still a little worn out after all the sleepless nights he experienced as result of all the nightmare-inducing absolutely terrifying "drive me into the sea!!" Iranian animation he's been subjecting himself to lately

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 30 2016 14:10 utc | 183

1. Storing solar energy as heat in some kind of heat bank which could be used to generate electricity conventionally for a limited period of time. This method is being researched.

Recently been tried - Ivanpah Solar Power Facility - turning out to be a total disaster
A Huge Solar Plant Caught on Fire, and That’s the Least of Its Problems

It's also been heavily subsidised, which is also turning out to be a bit of a disastrous financial decision.

2. Storing the electrical output of solar panels and/or wind turbines in batteries. This is already possible but the cost/efficiency ratio of current battery technology makes it impractical to store enough electricity to run a large city for, say, 7 days.

Or even for one (1) day would be nice. Plus: battery production is environmentally damaging, and requires a large amount of initial power and other resources (metals etc). So no overall gain for society.

3. Using wind and/or solar power to pump water up to a hydro power reservoir. If this was a good idea then someone would be doing it already, and no-one is doing it

Actually this has been done many places already - it's just not the most efficient use of resources and still relies on Coal and Gas electricity sources, so it's not an actual replacement for those sources, merely a "helping hand" at peak times.

- which leads me to conclude that until electricity is deemed to be a global resource requiring a globally-coordinated solution, then entrenched traditional, government-owning monopolies will do their utmost to ensure that no significant progress will be made in this direction until the entrenched monopolies can profit from it.

The actual problem is: transporting electricity over long distances. A LOT of money has already been thrown at that particular problem.

But the laws of physics remain unchanged alas, not being easily sway-able by piles of filthy lucre, no matter how enthusiastically or wishfully thrown.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 30 2016 14:24 utc | 184

PS: Ivanpah Solar Power Facility is also a turning out to be a bit of a disaster for the fragile eco-system in which it has been plonked.

Greenie Tree-huggers, normally quite uber-sensitive about such things, are currently doing their damnedest to completely ignore the disaster they have helped create, though

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 30 2016 14:31 utc | 185

@ 181, 168

In U.S. Crecent Dunes came online about a year ago. Been ramping up month to month production, now at projected production. Provides 24/7 SOLAR generated electricity, 110 mwh, @ 0.135 US$ per kWh. And... this was only 1st generation Solar CSP. Molten Salt Storage is integral: maturing fast, closed system loops (eg: minimal, 1 time resource allocation, with +/- -0- waste/pollution), and addresses solar/pv "intermittent" issues WITHOUT batteries.

Given massive improvements in PV/CSP accross the board in just last 3 years: < 50 drop in cost, greatly increased effeciency & improved electronics and automated system management/maintenance, not too hard to see where Solar/PV/CSP is going... fast.

It is illuminating to compare IEA 2014 and 2015 renewable growth forecasts to see how they are playing catch up to what is happening in real time: year on year, progress is entirely eclipsing their forecasts in REAL TIME.

China is leading the way, good overview of their Solar/PV/CSP installations and commitments here. EZ to Google through those projects to get details: it's incredibly dynamic and promising. And like Solar/PV/CSP (and several others) meteoric effective development in real time is occurring while nay-sayers sit on their butts making-up-stuff, convincing others it's all a grand conspiracy & a bunch of other nonsense... while the initiatives are moving forward at lightspeed. Many of these are hybrid PV/CSP systems.

Reminds me of when many tech gurus saturated media with inevitability IDE HD drives hit their feasability limits around 15 years ago... IDE was "dead".

Can get a good indication where China's going with the China National Development and Reform Commission Sept. 2016 statemement of feed in tariff policy (eg. this is state policy). Cost is way down (below US NG this year). They now project over 1.3 gw of production by late 2018, at 20 locations. And these are just DEMONSTRATION projects: eg. iterative implementation, R&D, improve/perfect etc... that's how you do it!!!

Given exponential increase in China's solar development Y2Y unpredicted by each prior year's forecast, some predicting their 2018 PV/CSP capacity will exceed 100 gw. They are also making use of smart, common sense PV productions storage in ways not even on US Radar.

Global overview of planned (eg: financed, engineered and bid-ready) Solar/PV/CSP projects here.


"There's 2 kinds of people: those who think they can, and those who think they can't. They're both right."


As to there being "no benefit to society" from solar...

- Health consequences from burning coal are off the charts. Our economic metrics do not even begin to track this cause/effect. Aside from human health fallout, healthcare monetary costs fall back on consumer/taxpayers. CDC barely makes feeble effort to connect these dots.

Not unlike Trump University.

In 2000, you could hike the Appalachian Trail and largely enjoy the natual beauty with minimal visual evidence of Coal mining footprint. Since Bush stripped environmental reg after environmental reg just to enable this, it's gotten grotesque. You can easily Google up the same for this practice's affect on their local water supplies; devastating.

Exact same thing in Canada's Tar Sands projects, good overview here. Good stats there on health consequences, devastation to what 10 years ago was still pristine beauty, etc. etc.

Solar/renewable development eliminates this. I'd call that a nice benefit to society.

- Destruction of water tables from Fracking is off the charts. And just like most other environmental & health devastations people here would like to think our institutions (CDC, EPA etc.) monitor, they are always... late. We don't have technolocy to even begin considering cleaning this up other then hugely expensive ground level water treatment, which require ongoing cost in perpetuity... paid for by local taxpayers. And this doesn't even begin to consider loss of productive land above these contaminated water supplies. The deniers come out of the wood work hurling explicatives trying to obscure this, but it doesn't take much digging to find all this to be so.

- The environmental destruction from coal burning is not localized: air currents carry the toxins 100's of miles affecting not just human health, but environmental health. Again, EPA does not even attempt to track this. Scripps had done studies on this (especially degradation of forest health) which KOCH's don't care to consider. Very good, well researched book detailing this is here (and 20 years old). It's very unfortunate, given lack of research into cause and affect, so many buy into various cancers and immune diseases being ascribed to "genetic predisposition" and "bad DNA".

- Continued reliance on oil means endless industrial process: extraction at source, local proccessing/transportation to super-tanker equipped harbors, endless convoys of tankers acroos oceans to harbors that can accomadate them, transportation to local refining facilities, then transportation by truck/rail throughout the country for retial distribution. Even now in early stages, PV/Solar/PV/CSP is one time investment. The farms run with minimal maintenance for min. 25 years. All the f ssil fuel distrubution energy costs, attendant pollution on 1 - 1 ratio between volume extracted >> the pump... in perpetuity, is eliminated.

All of this, Solar/renewable development meets head-on. I'd call that a VERY nice benefit to society.

Of course, none of this matters to those who are not (or not aware) of being immediately impacted... especially by serious health consequences. The same people sure get pissed when it hits them.. Just one representative case study in Denton Texas: the locals take action after their drinking water goes bad, fracking industry lawyers come in with big guns and unlimited budgets & overwhelm local finances to fight them. In this case frackers bribed State congress to outlaw local fracking bans. Similar lawsuits elsewhere have killed bans based on legal arguments that fracker's "property rights" are dishonered by fracking bans, entirely ignoring in court even consideration of damages. Most US law "insulates" activities on land surface from consequences on water below... absent EPA acknowledgement of groundwater contamination. Since EPA has only recently begun to do this (on very small scale), frackers have near 100% success in court with these arguments.

Right on down the line... (especially in US) ignorance and unwillingness/inability and (???) to come to grips with this is mind-boggling. Every bit as destructively EVIL as our ME atrocities. These things are going on simeoultaneously, in real time, and one does not cancel/obviate the other as far as reality is concerned, as much as many like to drown out one by myopic focus on the other. It's all part of the big picture, and this planet is every human being's home.

And of course, all of this is greatly diminished in value for those who take the "deniers" side in man made global warming/climate change. That's a conversation for another day. Whatever one's "opinion", most of developed countries have adopted polices in response to this reality and are moving on it. The U.S. is the knuckle-dragger. This election circus AFAIC a good canary-in-the-coal-mine indication as to why.

And we haven't even begun to talk about persistent, increasing US drought the last 5 years massively impacting agricultural production. Why not blame sunspots. :( That makes it all better, right?

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 30 2016 19:41 utc | 186


Yes there are problems with new technologies. That's what the r&d money is needed for.

There are three separate areas in which research needs to be pursued ...

1. solar hydrogen production
2. hydrogen storage
3. hydrogen fuel cells to produce electricity

There is no need to change the laws of physics. Green plants split water and produce hydrogen, and oxygen, every day. That's where the fossil-fuels came from. Storage is the biggest challenge today, it seems, the least attended to historically.

I like bacterial production for number one ... so-called bluegreen algae, 'technology' with a 3.5 billion year track record ... but various photosynthetic mimesis projects are in the works as well. MOF is there as well.

I like adsorbed hydrogen for storage, which is the direction I was pointing to with the MOF research

I haven't been following fuel cell electricity production, but there's been an interest in existing technologies there for use in drones ... a French company is selling a hydrogen fuel-cell propelled train to the Germans ... and MOF research may work out there as well ...

MOF ... it's actually all about 'nano-technology', the ability to create chemical structures at a molecular scale. Physics working its way through chemistry to biochemistry.

I'm certainly no expert. We'll see if hydrogen production/storage/conversion becomes a reality, or not. There are interesting reports of pursuit along all three lines of technology.

I imagine that photosynthetic hydrogen production, storage and conversion will come about, and that the economics of the situation will push its application, that at some point the proverbial 'critical mass' will be reached and its increasing adoption will bring about the collapse of the fossilized fossil-fuel infrastructure.

We'll see what happens. It could go a lot more quickly with proper support, and that does seem to be picking up. I'll leave the exact date to short Big Oil to the financial speculators.

Alternatively, we could bomb ourselves back to the stone age. As in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Ukraine ... It seems the fossil-fuelers prefer that option. Deaf, dumb, and blind at the top of and sloth, greed and stasis throughout their organizations, all in symbiosis with the MIC and geo-political megalomaniacs.


There are lots of ways to utilize solar in traditional ways. I live in Thailand ... and most showers use electricity to produce hot-water here. Nuts. Of course the Thais have an historic appreciation for cold water. But climate change is making the hot season hotter and the 'cold' season cooler as well. There will be a call for heating in the cool season. Simply 'redesigning' - returning to traditional design - could help out on hot end. And of course the whole country is in the tropics ... as is Northern Australia.

The challenge is storage. I think it will be hydrogen. The challenge in Australia will be in recycling the water from the electricity ... and water ... production stage to the hydrogen production ... and water consumption stage.

But I'm talking through my hat. We'll see what actually happens. The continued pursuit of fossil-fuels and warfare over control of them are both working to our ... and the whole earth's ... disadvantage.

It won't take as long as we think it will. Putin is not thinking as far ahead as he seems to be ... it is ourselves who are not looking ahead at all, wed as we are to 'the preservation of the status quo', and so to our own destruction.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30 2016 19:56 utc | 187

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 30, 2016 3:41:57 PM | 187

Thanks. Good rant. Lots of interesting stuff in there...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 30 2016 21:23 utc | 188

@187 jcmck

Yes thanks for the information. I don't need the information on the costs imposed by the fossi-fuelers, but I haven't been following CSP (concentrated solar power) so much. I realize that China is pretty much at the forefront of PV (photovoltaics).

A few things strike me :

1. Energy storage : hydrogen does that
2. The need to eliminate fossil-fuels from transportation applications : hydrogen does that.
3. The interest of Big Oil/Big Power each in keeping it's monopoly on production : hydrogen has the potential to break that in both, CSP seems to be Big Power's post-fossil-fuel 'cure' for distributed generation and storage of energy.

I think that in power, as in communications - the internet, centralization of production/control is a bad thing and distribution is a good thing. If the grids were shaken lose from the producers/controllers in both instances, I think that would be a good thing. Monopoly seems always bad. It's a growing threat.

Local power production could gradually replace central power production on the power grid.

In the case of the internet, end to end encryption and anonymizing routing techniques could be required if the internet communications grid were separated from the content providers, and a 'simple', anonymous, encrypted ip 'dialtone' service were separated from and stripped out of the monsters that are growing the internet grid at present.

I think you are absolutely right to link the fossil-fuelers and the MIC in the ME. It is all related by the political-economic model being pursued.

So, too, are the concentrations of production and control in power and communications linked with the concentration of political power and control. Globalization - as defined by neo-liberalism - is really concentration of power and control in all spheres and at all levels, and so all organization comes to resemble itself along every dimension and at every level : monopoly.

An essential part of the solution to all our problems is distribution of control and authority. In politics it's called democracy outright, but it's the same thing across the board in all of our societal endeavors. So it seems to me at any rate.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30 2016 22:39 utc | 189

That's jdmck ... sorry.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 30 2016 22:54 utc | 190

jfl @ 190

Thx. I live in southwest (New Mexico... sunny as it gets) so for renew ables, solar is best fit here. I've paid pretty close attention for about 10 years now, and put some time into keeping up. Spend +/- 6-8 weeks in (mostly southern) China per year, so I see their real-time initiatives up close in real time. It's all over the news all the time there, and a lot of pride/enthusiasm in the culture.

Sounds like you keep up on Hydrogen progress more then I, so I'll defer.

Your point 3...

3. The interest of Big Oil/Big Power each in keeping it's monopoly on production :

... is the kicker, the nicotine, the addiction. Their almost unfathomable wealth w/constant revenue stream, funds friendly "think tanks" which pump media with bs, money keeps flowing, rinse & repeat etc. etc. Will take enormous political will we haven't seen to change this.

As far as localized vs. centralized you bring up, I'll pass for now. Only thing I'll say that hasn't been on that: we need a new, forward thinking world class smart grid taking into account (as best as possible with enlightened thinking) progress in new technologies, energy sources and more so the grid won't be a dinosaur in 75 years. If this is done right, it will make the localized vs. centralized issues/engineering much more flexible. Grid technology/design is in my field of expertise (Engineer). I've been back to college a few times to bone up on latest tech "hoping" for new grid, but it just hasn't happened. Window for me (at 61) to participate in this has probably closed.

And last, there's nano technology in early stages of "beta" which has potential to render PV obsolete in 50 years. With really concerted effort like what Jill talks about (I love that, WWII/Manhattan project focus/effort. And that's kind'a what China's doing now), I'm pretty sure we have barely scratched the surface of what's available/possible from solar. Multiple complete transformations available & possible I'm sure. Coordinated human will... that's the open question.

One last thing about why I am more enamored & spend more time investigating solar then other renewable/clean sources: literally all the energy available on Earth was & is ultimately delivered by the Sun. It is "first cause" in our (Earth's) universe for harvest-able energy. My favorite stat: the sun delivers more energy in 24 hours then man generates collectively on entire planet in a year. This just completely reminds me that the technology gap between now and what's possible, is enormous.

There's a lot of work to do.

Ok, thx for chipping in and good conversation.


Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 31 2016 0:53 utc | 191

@192, jdmck, 'One last thing about why I am more enamored & spend more time investigating solar then other renewable/clean sources: literally all the energy available on Earth was & is ultimately delivered by the Sun.'

The hydrogen I refer to is generated by photolysis, it's not really a 'renewable energy source', the sun is the ... not very renewable itself ... energy source, although we flash-in-the-pan, omnipotent humans regard its life as infinite,

The H2O -> H2 + O -> H2O cycle is just that.

The first arrow is solar ... PV/artificial photosynthetic/biological photosynthetic ... I imagine that biological photosynthetic would be the most desirable, although artificial photosynthetic might turn out to be so. PV is not really in the running.

I suppose you could think of fossil fuels as part of a much longer cycle, with disastrous 'side' effects and 'waste' products.

As you point out, other than its own relict radioactivity, all the energy available on earth comes from brother sun.

There was an interesting article written by Michael Seibert - National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Golden, CO. It was written sometime ago, and 'biofuels' were still in vogue at that time. Seibert's Figure 8 shows the relative amounts of territory required produce us gasoline production by various solar products.

Seifert also wrote a good introduction to photosynthetic hydrogen production.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 31 2016 5:35 utc | 192

Erdogan: Greek islands ‘used to be ours’

“We have our monuments and our mosques there [on the islands],” he said.

He made no reference to the innumerable Greek churches on Turkish territory, including the famous Hagia Sofia in Istanbul.

Erdogan's been hanging around with the Israelis, I guess, taking notes. I think that Erdogan is going to exhaust his usefulness to the Atlanticist/Eurasian powers sooner rather than later.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 31 2016 5:39 utc | 193

Selloff in global bond markets

[I]f interest rates do start to rise, either because of an increase in inflation or an uptick in economic growth — the stated aim of QE measures — there is the risk of a major crisis as a result of massive losses incurred in finance markets.

Moreover, there is a significant difference between the situation today and that of eight years ago. In 2008 the central banks stood outside the financial markets. Today they are major players and would therefore be directly involved in any market meltdown.

And there you have it : the lie that must not be named ... but interest on the lie 'must' be paid! After the meltdown of the central, commercial, and non-bank banks of Atlantis.

Posted by: jfl | Oct 31 2016 9:04 utc | 194

Admittedly the feast of links and figures feverishly assembled by "Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 30, 2016 3:41:57 PM | 187" look at first glance quite impressive, a little bit of scrutiny leaves one with the impression that we're dealing with someone that at some point in his life worked as a 2nd hand car salesman

Haviing been around the web for a while, it's obvious that the feverish deast of links and numbers is designed to bamboozle rather than inform.

Curiously, despite being posted less than a mere 48 hrs ago, two of his links don't work at all
- thus indicating the freverish nature of what was obviously a rather frantic googling session designed to find the most impressive set of figures (and damn the reliabilty) in order to refute what was posted earlier concrening the hard physical limitations concerning solar energy and storage

Notably absent was any mention of subsidies - which is curious since this whole conversation concerning solar started with a discussion of subsidies.

The snake oil salesman at #187 would have us all believe that China is a veritable nirvana of Solar power - what he concealed from us though is the very pertinent information that the Chinese Gov't provides the princely sum of a total of $28 Billion Dollars (with a "B") of subsidies to it's solar industries. (See: Bloomberg - )

For some reason the snake-oil salesman forgot to tell us about that little bit of info when the composed his snake-oil sales screed at 187

Just to be clear that's $28,000 Million Dollars, or 28 and 9 zeroes - $28,000,000,000 - in subsidiesthat the snake oil salesman neglected to mention - Whoops! Could happen to anyone, right?

That adds up to more than the combined amount of subsidies for the US and EU - so no wonder there is massive growth in solar installation in China - the chinese gov't is essentially handing out free money to anyone investing in solar right now - who's going to pass up free money, right?

Another thing Mr Snake-oil Salesman neglected to mention, when presenting us with his deceptively impressive-looking array of solar capacity figures, is that typically generation methods like solar and wind typically deliver a mere 20% of the Nameplate capacity.

So when Mr SnakeOil tells you about a 100MegaWatts solar installation it sounds real impressive until you realise that the actual return is somewhere in the region of 20-25 MegaWatts - basically you need to divide all his capacity figures by 5

Snake-oil salespersons have always behaved this way

Now Mr Snake-oil wants us to believe that there's been a massive increase in Solar in China over the last few years, and indeed there has been, no doubt about it, after all the chinese Gov't is essentially gibving away free money to anyone investing in new Solar installations- but once against Mr Snake-oil neglects to include some pertinent facts.

Mr Snake-oil mentions that there are impressive increases over the last gfew years in the rate of solar installations, and not only that Mr Snake-oil wants you to take that rate of increase and extrapolate it forward into the future, and that my friends is just more Snake-oil Sales-talk.


here's why:
Solar prospects dim as subsidies peter out and overcapacity builds

After a rush in installations to pre-empt scheduled subsidy cuts from July 1, analysts turn bearish on the outlook for sector in second-half and next year
PUBLISHED : Monday, 08 August, 2016, 6:01pm

“What goes up, must come down.”

That’s the rather stark assessment by one analyst, of the expected fortunes of China’s solar power industry in the second-half, after the number of panel installations scorched ahead by a record 159 per cent in the first six months.

Others say volumes may continue falling moderately next year, too, and remain subdued for the next few years.

The likely easing in the sector’s progress is the direct result of growing difficulties in the financing of new projects, not helped by a reduction in generous government subsidies for new developments.

Many firms are already finding tighter cash flows, too, from growing amounts of still unpaid government subsidies, and of low plant utilisation caused by power grid bottlenecks.

“After a rush in installations [during this year’s first-half] to pre-empt scheduled tariff cuts from July 1, we are now turning bearish on the outlook for China’s solar sector in the second-half and next year,”

Beware SnakeOil Salesmen.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 31 2016 11:41 utc | 195

More Anti-Snake-oil info

In China, as in the rest of the world, solar is a tiny slice of the energy pie. It produced just 0.2% of China's electricity in 2012, Yuanta Financial Holdings, a Taiwan-based firm, estimated in a recent research note. Even if China meets aggressive targets it has set out for installing more solar panels over the next several years, it will generate only 1.3% of its electricity from solar in 2020, Yuanta said.


Investors in Chinese solar farms found cash similarly easy to come by. In 2009, China's central government rolled out an incentive called Golden Sun, designed to spur construction of solar farms. Under the program, the government pays half of solar-farm developers' costs.

The program is based on a key inefficiency. It pays developers based on how much money they spend on a solar farm, not on how much electricity their solar farm produces. So the subsidy doesn't spur developers to install the most cost-efficient technology or to pick the most cost-effective sites.

More egregiously, Wang says, some Chinese solar developers have built solar farms, pocketed the Golden Sun subsidy, and then removed the solar panels and installed them elsewhere.

In 2011, China's solar rush hit a wall. The feverish expansion by Chinese manufacturers created an oversupply of panels that sent prices plummeting some 40% in that year alone. European governments cut back their solar subsidies; given the lower panel prices, they reasoned, they didn't have to give away so much money. Those subsidy cuts reduced investors' interest in building solar farms. And that erosion in demand further ate into solar-panel makers' margins.

But those minuscule numbers mask how important China's export-focused solar-panel industry is to the country. That importance is partly about image and partly about money.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 31 2016 11:51 utc | 196
But U.S. solar panel manufacturers and people who believe that solar manufacturing can become part of a new “clean technology” economy are unhappy. They believe that the flood of Chinese solar cells is a textbook case of dumping — an economic term to describe when foreign companies overwhelm a market with cheap goods to drive competitors out of business. Later, after gaining control of that market, the foreign companies can jack up prices.

Chinese panels are selling for less than $1 a watt, while those made elsewhere sell for about 20 percent more, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

China supplies nearly half of U.S. solar panel imports — 44.6 million units in the first eight months of the year, up from 3.8 million in 2008, according to an anti-dumping petition filed by a group of U.S. firms. Those sales rocketed to $1.69 billion through August of this year from $233.3 million in 2008.

But volume doesn’t guarantee profits and for Chinese solar companies, it has been a painful rise to the top ranks of the global market. Suntech, JA Solar and LDK Solar, the top Chinese solar panel makers, reported losses for the third quarter and warned investors the outlook was grim. JA Solar reported operating losses and a writedown on the value of its inventory. Suntech, which lost $116.4 million in the third quarter, said it expected shipments to drop 10 percent in the fourth quarter.


“China is not pricing its products to make money,” said Timothy Brightbill, a lawyer at Wiley Rein who is representing U.S. solar panel makers in the dumping case. “It’s pricing its products to try to dominate this market.”


Like many Chinese industries from the past, the solar industry is supported by subsidies and loans from state-owned banks; it imports equipment, thrives on low-margin, high-volume exports and often violates basic environmental standards in disposing of waste. In September, riot police clashed with about 500 people who damaged vehicles and stormed a Jinko Solar plant, which they said had dumped toxic waste in a local river.


“I’m worried that what we see in China is . . . a pattern where existing technologies — sometimes mature, sometimes not — are ramped up rapidly, expanded quickly, because they have access to government support,” Naughton said. “That kind of support has a danger because it distorts the overall global environment for these newly emerging technologies — technologies that are important for all of us.”

Joanna Lewis, a professor of science, technology and international affairs at Georgetown University, adds that “the part of the process that China excels in is energy-intensive and not environmentally friendly.” She adds that solar is “clean, green technology, but only after you manufacture it” — and not if it’s all exported.


While China talks about boosting its domestic market, its solar panel manufacturing capacity is 32 times greater than domestic consumption. Solar last year accounted for just 0.006 percent of China’s electrical power, Naughton said.


Many subsidies are given out at the local or provincial level. The dumping petition points to Shandong’s $340 million energy fund for solar water heaters, Hunan’s call for a 150 percent tax deduction for solar research and development, and Yunnan’s grants and low-interest loans.

Georgetown’s Lewis notes that a Hunan company called Sunzone bought industrial land from the Chinese government at one-third the official rate, then listed the land on its books at full value.

A Suntech filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission in May says most of its subsidiaries qualify as “high and new technology enterprises” and therefore pay a 15 percent corporate income tax rate instead of 33 percent.

U.S. solar companies and lawmakers also point to the $34 billion in credit that the China Development Bank has offered to the big five panel makers. But JA Solar, which in September 2010 announced that the bank would provide $4.7 billion in financing, told Bloomberg News last month that it has not drawn down any of that amount. Suntech has used less than 10 percent of its $7 billion facility, said Andrew Beebe, the company’s chief commercial officer. Other firms have also balked at the bank’s offer for the time being.

The China Development Bank’s interest rates have been “market rates,” according to Beebe and SEC filings by Chinese solar firms listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Beebe says Suntech paid as little as 4.5 percent over the past couple of years and more than 6 percent this year. That is about three times as high as the rates Solyndra was paying for five-year loans from the Federal Financing Bank.

SEC filings reveal other advantages for Chinese firms. Suntech describes a guarantee it gave for a loan of 554 million euros provided by China Development Bank to a project developer called Solar Puglia, which Suntech had acquired. When Solar Puglia’s power projects were not connected to the grid by Jan. 30, 2011, China Development Bank was entitled to demand immediate payment; it did not.

Another key trade dispute: The price and availability of polysilicon. China has imposed a quota on exports of polysilicon, the key ingredient of most solar panels. That has kept the price of silicon in China artificially low. In 2008, the price of polysilicon spiked as high as $450 a kilogram (2.2 pounds). Solyndra’s panels did not use silicon, an appealing feature at that time, and Energy Department officials said they could not foresee a plunge in polysilicon prices.


But in the new five-year plan, the Chinese government has set a goal of generating 20 gigawatts of electricity with solar by 2020. That would represent just 1 percent of China’s expected power generation, but it would be roughly equal to the world’s total installed capacity.

Posted by: Killary PAC | Oct 31 2016 12:05 utc | 197

Noirette | Oct 27, 2016 12:48:06 PM | 101

And that's what "they" want - a new crisis to implement even more sever measures restricting civil liberties, to confiscate guns. It would immediately "solve the state crisis" and unite the society against common enemy: Trump+Russia+...

Posted by: ProPeace | Oct 31 2016 12:23 utc | 198

interesting confession by a French involved in the arm sales from France/UAE to Syrian rebels
plus the post above his comment (the first in the series of comments)

excellent interview of a war correspondent

Posted by: Mina | Oct 31 2016 15:52 utc | 199

Killary PAC @ 196

Curiously, despite being posted less than a mere 48 hrs ago, two of his links don't work at all 1) 2)

your #1 was link to my statement: "Global overview of planned (eg: financed, engineered and bid-ready) Solar/PV/CSP projects here." Comprehensive details are here. Have fun!!!

your #2 was link to my statement: "They now project over 1.3 gw of production by late 2018". Here's quick google search on that subject: pages of articles with same headline. Take you pick.


Notably absent was any mention of subsidies - which is curious since this whole conversation concerning solar started with a discussion of subsidies.

Nope! Just a disqualifying sideshow you/Penelope introduced along the way.

Solar PV/CSP efficacy stands on it's own: it works or (as of just 3 years ago it couldn't compete on price/cost)... or it doesn't. I've said China has made massive investement, R & D and real time experimentation/improvement... the Design Process: this doesn't make US news. People can choose to read some of those links and see for themselves, it's pretty hard to deny. You/Penelope pull up a few "subsidies", and use it as a religious, self-righteous dis-qualification of this technologies efficacy.

And that's where the conversation began (I started it): that China is doing this (in big way), and cost is now well below coal, and newest projects coming in under NG.

You pull up one project (Ivanpah) that's had *some* problems (mostly corrected now), attempting to suggest this is evidence of a failed technology across the board. Aside from Ivanpah designed in 2013 (almost archaic now, not even close to state of the art) and their contractor poorly chosen (you don't see Haliburton in any of the winning bids worldwide in last year or so), there's (even aside from China in links I provided) well over 3 dozen successful projects across the globe. With China's state of the art new ones BTW, exceeding these in effenciency & cost (both to build and price per kwh).

What you are really "denying" is the ability of people and organizations all over the planet to... pro-gress. A Naysayer. Holding up a sick tree in the forest to declare forests are a "scam". And ignoring the vast real time progress, well represented in my links... to do so. And wrapping every statement you make, beginning and end, in a personal slur.

Pretty juvenile.

Killary PAC @ 197

More Anti-Snake-oil info

A little dated, to say the least.

Killary PAC @ 198

2011. You're going backwards my friend.

Anyway, seems I had that big red spot on your forehead with a bullseye. :) Glad to get your attention.

China as voted with their $$, in a huge way. They have every right to.

You call it "subsidies". They call it investment. Proof is in the pudding.

And their middle class is expanding rapidly; ours is in decline. They are spending billions re-training their workers for next generation technologies; ours are ending up flipping burgers in Macdonalds. Germany similarly invests heavily in their workforce: their "blue collar" workers often better trained then many US college graduates.

Looks like they are doing a lot of things... right.

Posted by: jdmckay | Nov 1 2016 0:29 utc | 200

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