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April 26, 2016

Open Thread 2016-16

News & views ...

Posted by b on April 26, 2016 at 17:44 UTC | Permalink

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pyschohistorian - I don't know where I stand on private finance simply because I don't know what the alternative would look like. What would your idea alternative look like if you don't mind explaining? Are you advocating a more centralized gov't entity to finance or some thing entirely different? thnks.

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 4:43 utc | 201

@ Au

The alternative would look something like the China 5 year plan writ global. Instead of some clique of global plutocrats acting in their best interests we would have "bureaucrats" and all the transparency possible around the "economic" decisions.

I believe in a global government that respects the cultural differences while keeping us at peace with each other in spite of those differences. I believe that exclusive competition based culture is a evolutionary dead end and that we need to evolve toward better sharing with outlets for competitive energy being frontiers like space exploration. I also don't believe in ongoing accumulation of private property and control through inheritance.......China has 99-year leases for example.

I don't have all the answers but see us approaching extinction on our current path and want to effect structural change of some killing the Gawd of Mammon/private finance.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 30 2016 5:10 utc | 202

Controversy Continues to Swirl Around Clinton New York Primary Win

There were at least 125,000 voters who were unable to vote in Brooklyn alone. ... Clinton had 586,017 votes to Sanders’ 338,313, with a total of 924,330 votes cast.

This gave her 63.4 percent over Sanders’ 36.6 percent, according to the New York Times.

586,017+338,313 = 924,330
586,017/924,330 = 0.6339, 63.4%
338,313/924,330 = 0.3660, 36.6%

586,017-125,000 = 461,017
338,313+125,000 = 463,313

461,017+463,313 = 924,330
461,017/924,330 = 0.4987, 49.9%
463,313/924,330 = 0.5012, 50.1%

Move along. Nothing to see here.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2016 7:45 utc | 203

@203 psycho

I don't think China's a particularly good model. The problem seems to me to be rooted in money's being lent into existence. Interest of the 'debt' starts at 'birth' and only increases as the debt is passed from hand to hand. 'The miracle of compound interest' is unsustainable.

People get confused. What is money? Is credit money? Is money a store of wealth? Is money an abstract unit of trade value. The answer is 'Yes'. It's all those things.

What I'm talking about is credit. So you don't have to pay for my hydrogen until you get paid for your electric cars. And the other way around.

Banks create the money to make the loan, then retroactively make a fractional reserve deposit at the Fed to 'cover' it. Slightly different mechanisms elsewhere, essentially the same.

If national governments recaptured seignorage, the exclusive right to create 'money', there would be no loan, no interest to pay, credit would expand as required to support exchange, the economy.

It's the skim off the top that puts the financiers in charge, with everyone owing them interest on 'their' money.

Recapturing seignorage would end the private creation of money. That's what I want. I think that's what you want. Takes care of credit and exchange. Store of money is still there, but it is no longer metastasizing like a cancer.

Good book explaining same : Creating New Money.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2016 8:06 utc | 204


Even with seignorage, the grifters and grafters are waiting in the wings. The only way to get and keep control is a sovereign people in charge of their sovereign government.

Mike Gravel pointed out the way there with his Ni4d, his National Initiative for Democracy. I think he should have specified Referendum and Recall as well, and should have made it 100% democratic - he envisions a sort of Committee of Good Guys who run the Initiative business. A governmental-NGO.

I'm trying to improve it, via an R2IA, a Recall, Referendum, and Initiative Amendment. I need all of your help. I began twenty-some years ago with a CFA, a Campaign Finance Amendment, got involved with Mike's campaign in 2008 and learned about his Ni4d, realized the need for an OEA, an Open Election Amendment a year or two ago. Need help there as well.

My version of the qua in the sine qua non, the next evolutionary step, is democracy. Oligarchy is rule by the deaf, dumb, and blind. We've all been holding on to the coat in front of us as we stumble along for far too long. Now it's time to get serious, if we want to survive. Structure is essential, but working the machine by hand is our only hope. Luckily, many hands make light work.

Posted by: jfl | Apr 30 2016 8:33 utc | 205

pyscho - i actually share a lot of those same beliefs wholeheartedly - except regarding private property. Full disclosure: I'm a commercial real estate guy who lives off cash flowing investments and I own various locations around the southern united states and some in the New England region. Suffice it to say - I love private property and real estate and a 99 year ground lease is not something i fancy but if that was the case, it would make life easier because I could just operate a business and milk the shit out of that ground without ever having to put much capital in game for land costs - this is already done by most of those build to suit folks and fast food restaurants. I was so afraid you were going to suggest what you suggested regarding china and desiring beauracrats to make economic decisions. so I respectfully disagree on the private property front but other than that I think we are on the same page.

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 14:08 utc | 206

Who are these gobal pleutocrats Pyscho? I know the fourth largest land owner in the United States personally - he is a country boy who rolled tobacco in Kentucky till Philip Morris bought him out now he buys land and lives in Franklin, Tennessee but yet you have a problem with this?

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 14:19 utc | 207

Brad Kelley is his name - that post of mine may have seemed accusatory towards your beliefs I just think the write to pass what you own to your children is totally fine and quite frankly the estate tax is absolutely crushing currently.

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 14:20 utc | 208

@ Au

I have a problem with private finance and the extent of inheritance that enables families to continue to own private finance over centuries. I want to eliminate private finance and neuter inheritance so none can accumulate enough to effect social policy.

Do you not understand that the Fortune 500 are not the richest people in the world? How come we don't report the Fortune 500 Trust funds?

I suggest you read The Secrets of the Temple by Greider about the is privately owned. Looking at the stupidity of social decisions like Fukushima I believe it is past time we made finance a public utility and remove debt control from private hands.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 30 2016 14:49 utc | 209

cool, i'll check out the book regarding the fed, htanks for the tip. I totally agree with a lot of what you laid out earlier, I still disagree with some of your goals regarding private wealth but like I had mentioned, I'm entrenched in self interest.

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 15:15 utc | 210

I will say, Looking at a fortune 500 ceo's trusts would be utterly a waste of time - of course they probably have a heaping amount in the trust wrapped in various investments like any sane and sensible human being would do for their children, just like I am doing. Finding a fat trust for a rockefeller child doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Posted by: Au | Apr 30 2016 15:27 utc | 211

@ Au

I am referring to family trusts that have evolved over centuries and enable the global plutocrats to control private finance, nations, etc.

Its like the Mafia only "legit"......grin/wink, wink, nod, nod....they are doing God's work on earth, after all.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 30 2016 15:55 utc | 212

Someone doesn't get that the zionists control every nation of the West?Jesus.Only rip van winkle would approve.
Sanders is not dead yet.This doesn't mean I support him,although out of the hell bitch and he,I would choose him in a millisecond,just recognizing their are many Sanders states to still vote.Outside of DC,none of these are locks for HRC,except possibly NJ,as it is similar to NY with its ghetto prisoners voting for more ghettos,and its share of wacko feminazis.
Trump,with his Russia and other renegade policy aims,needs the people to stay in his corner,hence his military endorsements.
Again,in the age of terror,to appear weak and appeasement(haha) leaning would be political suicide.
He made me howl:) when he said getting to his blockaded(who da nazis?) rally he felt like an illegal border crosser.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 30 2016 16:21 utc | 213

AU;How does dissolving Nato and being friendly with Putin and Russia coexist with your claim of Bolton(idoit-sic)being Trumps closest FP adviser?I have no real idea of him being consulted,but it also,when stated by the MSM,is a way of attacking Trump by attaching his name to that nut.
AGW;Put forth by the same caliber of yuppie scum who have given US sh*t on a stick in every way.If true,aint no way its going to be stopped by the greedy bastards in charge,and man will adapt.
Yesterdays news was full of the alleged Russian or Assad bombing hospital,but today not much,as its filled with the mea culpa of our bombing the DWB in Afghanistan.It was an accident you see,and we just don't do that on purpose.And related possibly,they released a report last week about the previous crash of an gunship,and blamed it on misplaced NV goggles that prevented control of plane.Wow. Sounds fishy to me,as I always linked the 2 incidents.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 30 2016 17:15 utc | 214

204;How the hell would they know that the excluded voters would all be for Sanders?
Again,Sanders loses all the states with high numbers of black,minority,or in the case of NYC,Jewish voters,and the preceding 2.
Sanders has won almost all the least minority states,and they are upcoming.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 30 2016 17:25 utc | 215

@217 dahoit

Well it's unlikely they were all going to vote for Sanders, but they were all in Brooklyn and Sanders is from Brooklyn. Not Vermont.

The point being that the local demoblican machine disenfranchised enough voters to have made that scenario not just improbable but impossible.

My point is that Americans need abandon all hope when they hop on an elephant of donkey, that doing so is like riding the carousel, going nowhere. Now they are openly disenfranchising voters who try to put forward their own candidates within the party framework, and the corporate media is reporting it as a 'glitch'.

That people like the Sandersistas need to write-in the person they want for office, whatever that office might be. That all of us should. Yes, the donkeys and elephants will still be elected, but that's true in any case. The drill now is to have he write-in / spoiled ballot total exceed that of the 'winner'.

Once that's occurred the next step is to make sure that those ballots all have the same name written in on them. I think its a workable plan to - not only seize power in the US from the political class but, necessarily, to exercise the body democratic. To build up the 98 pound weakling, so he stand up to the bully kicking sand in his face at Coney Island, just like in the old Charles Atlas ads.

Pursuing the goal and attaining it being one and the same. Write-in Elections.

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2016 0:03 utc | 216

Musing further, reflecting on 2016-17@86 dahoit ... the RFKJr article, but now that you're here - if you're here, dahoit, Grieved - I'll run it by both of you.

I think that of the things papered over / left out in the RFKJr. article the worst is the Demoblican Party partisan-ship. This is just what we've been through, having so recently been Berned : a 'new' face (a Kennedy fer chrissakes!) who gets everyone back on the bandwagon to nowhere. Sitting on the donkeys chasing the elephants on the carousel. Best you can hope for is to catch the ring that let's you do it again for 'free'.

The time has come to do something outside the political party apparatus in the USA because change cannot possibly come about otherwise.

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2016 0:31 utc | 217

@120 a4 '... why did his presidency turn out the way that it did?'

Because it started out the way it did. I don't think the guy ever made an appointment on his own. He was surrounded from day one by people picked by others. The guy, as you say, has a 'sense of humor' - although I wouldn't classify it as good - he was just not executive material. He's stand-up material. That's why he was recruited and that's what he delivered. Policy stayed in the same hands : the fusiliers', the financiers', and the fossil-fuelers'.

I don't imagine anything will change next January. Do you? I've got 2 and a half words for you : Write-in Elections.

Posted by: jfl | May 1 2016 7:24 utc | 218

219;As someone else who was also raised in Kennedy mystique,a 51er,I( find all these cheers for both as a little funny.JFK had plenty of misses(uh,not women,but policy)and RFK worked with Roy Cohn and McCarthy,so both were not perfect vehicles to put hopes,dreams and memories in,although when they shot Jack,it was the worst days of my life as an American,and his murder was a catalyst for American decline and the death of optimism by our youth.
But both were better than the current crop of Ziowhores,and that includes BS.

Posted by: dahoit | May 1 2016 15:44 utc | 219

And PS;Sanders lost Brooklyn,the black vote and the Jewish vote,by wide margins,so Brooklyn could have delivered even more Hell B votes.
Again,all across the USA,outside of urban and or minority areas ,she is dead meat.And I guarantee she is not going to get many GOP votes,other than zionists,as most hate her.

Posted by: dahoit | May 1 2016 16:15 utc | 220

In other news - an oldie but a goodie - remember that time last year when that Saudi Prince was caught w/ two tons of captagon pills and cocaine for isis fighters (well, presumedly the cocaine was for personal use)

Posted by: Au | Apr 28, 2016 11:26:40 AM | 129

Typical speculation not supported by facts. For all we know, that captagon was made in Syria in labs run either by the "moderates" or ISIS, and it is hard to see how the good prince could bring it any closer to "isis fighter" than it already was. OTOH, his dad was described as regularly inviting ca. 2000 folks to his parties, so do the math: properly supplying a party without alcohol may need a few pills per guest, and with princely generosity you should allow them to take some pills home, so: 10,000 pills for a single party, say, 20 pounds. That is for dad's parties, but there are also brothers and sisters, in-laws and so on. And if with all that 4,000 pounds seems tad high, one can also surmise that dad, for all his legendary riches, could be a bit stingy and the prince wanted to supplement his income.

Rather than spinning a speculation about supplies to ISIS, au should focus on the true appalling aspect of the story: the cheek of the vile commoners who dared to arrest a royal, nephew of the king. Something like that could not happen in a well-governed country, say USA, so the chief culprit is the malevolent influence of Hezbollah.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 2 2016 0:15 utc | 221

@223 pb

Why is your typical speculation, unsupported by facts, to be preferred over a4's? or those he's cited?

We all count on you for your unsurpassed cynicism, drawing our attention to the 'vile commoners' who deserve someone else's attention, your own disgust at said vile commoners, 'cleverly' disguised by your trademark, bogus. double-negative cynicism.

Posted by: jfl | May 2 2016 0:39 utc | 222

@ Au

The alternative would look something like the China 5 year plan writ global. Instead of some clique of global plutocrats acting in their best interests we would have "bureaucrats" and all the transparency possible around the "economic" decisions. [psychohistorian]

This is utterly unconvincing. It boils down to the fact that in modern economy, be it China or USA, key economic decisions are taken by a very narrow circle of people. Who may be incline to consider the common weal or not. Most people have some positive self-image so they try to do good as THEY UNDERSTAND IT. Far East cultures have some benefit from their history: state control of economy has more than 2000 years of tradition and you can learn from good and bad examples from all that period (some Chinese 5-year plans were utter failures), plus they do not have any positive thoughts about Ayn Rand. But even so, the regulation of financial system can take better of them, and it is highly possible that China will ultimately face a financial catastrophe as it happen in Japan -- recent gigantic government manipulations of Chinese stock market look to me like a warning signs.

But a similar system in USA would either be an instant disaster, or a reproduction of the current mediocre reality with few unimportant differences.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 2 2016 0:47 utc | 223

@221 @222 dahoit

Jack and Bobby are both still dead. The machine that murdered them is still free-wheeling. It's this new one RFKJr, who's the present subject. Specifically this article, simultaneously dropping 'CIA bombshells' - remarkable only by whom they were dropped, and where - and polishing the apple of the demoblican party, all the while stroking common American prejudices. I think its the prelude to Yet Another Bogus Demoblican Candidacy a la Clinton-Obama-Sanders-Clinton. So the only thing to do is to embrace the truthiness of the CIA 'revelations' while denouncing the untruthiness of this latest Demoblican scam. Stop falling for Lucy and for her football, Charlie.

On Sanders winning in Brooklyn, the point I tried to make - obviously unsuccessfully - was concerning the fraud pulled off by the Demoblican Party there. They disenfranchised enough voters to have changed the result of the election in NYC, no matter that was unlikely to have happened in this case.

We have to stop going around in circles with the present political class if we want to effect change. Change from within is not just unlikely it is impossible, it must come from without. And we are the only ones here.

Posted by: jfl | May 2 2016 1:14 utc | 224

@225 pb

Agree with you here. People are still waiting for someone to save them. The fewer they are - corporacrats, bureaucrats, technocrats, just-plain-rats - the deafer, dumber, and blinder they are in pursuit of the good as THEY UNDERSTAND IT.

The interest they are capable of perceiving with any seriousness at all is their own, as are we all, which is why we all must be equally capable of pursuing our own perceptions of the good, if the good is going to be in any meaningful way approximated : democracy. So says me, at any rate.

Posted by: jfl | May 2 2016 1:25 utc | 225

@ PB and jfl

I am gobsmacked that both of you see no obvious difference between the " pursuit of the good as THEY UNDERSTAND IT" of bureaucrats and those of the global plutocrats.

I am sure that both groups would come up with the same world......../snark

And then ther is this by jfl
The interest they are capable of perceiving with any seriousness at all is their own, as are we all, which is why we all must be equally capable of pursuing our own perceptions of the good, if the good is going to be in any meaningful way approximated : democracy. So says me, at any rate.

Are you the type that wants to drown govt in the bathtub because humans are always altruistic? I think that we have government because as a grouping of people we want the "socialistic" benefits of such. When we define social organizations like government we usually have vision, goals, objectives and such....maybe even an altruistic motto like E Pluribus Unum.....but I digress. I don't recall democracy being defined as the perceptions of good as defined by the global plutocrats, which is what we have now.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 2 2016 3:16 utc | 226

So what's the deal with Trump and the allegation that he (and Jeffery Epstein) raped her?

I came across this guy that follows the Epstein saga and talks about Trump's connection to him.. Can't say I've come across any direct links, but Epstein used Trump's Florida resort a lot

Posted by: aaaa | May 2 2016 4:41 utc | 227

So what's the deal with Trump and the allegation that he (and Jeffery Epstein) raped her? I came across this guy that follows the Epstein saga and talks about Trump's connection to him.. Can't say I've come across any direct links, but Epstein used Trump's Florida resort a lot
Posted by: aaaa | May 2, 2016 12:41:33 AM | 229

It's gotta be bullshit.
Rape is the product of an obsessive personality with no imagination and even less charm and self-confidence. That's not Trump.
Rape is also the quintessential hollow victory. That's not Trump either.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 2 2016 5:43 utc | 228

Trump’s foreign policy speech, my summary transcript:

America First! - Replace Chaos with Peace

We saved the world from the Nazis and the Jap Imperialists!

We won the Cold War BIG! Reagan was a great Prez

Our foreign policy: foolishness and arrogance

Mistakes in Iraq, Egypt, Syria and Lybia

Iran filled the void! They have benefitted so much (=> Against Iran)

Military Weakened! (Obama is a klutz)

I’m the only one who knows how to fix all this

Allies don’t pay fair share! NATO doesn’t spend 2% of GDP on Defense! (Defense against whom not said.) They have to pay! Allies have to do their part! (=> EU has to obey)

Iran cannot be allowed to have a nuclear weapon! (=> Against Iran)

Obama supported the overthow of a friendly Egyptian Prez that had peace with Israel and put the Muslim Brotherhood in its place!

Israel, our great friend and the one true democracy in the ME has been snubbed etc. A force for justice and Peace, denigrated!

Obama treated Iran with tender love and care! (=> against Iran)

Our rivals no longer respect us and don’t take us seriously

The list of humiliations goes on and on. (Quotes Cuba, N Korea, KSA)

(Passage against China.)

Obama weakened America

Weakness, confusion, disarray, a mess. Christians persecuted!

We are in a war against radical Islam. But won’t name the enemy!

(Goes into Benghazi.)

And now ISIS is making millions of dollars a week and we don’t blockade or bomb!

We are getting out of the nation-building business and into creating stability in the World. Supported by both parties and close allies! This is how we won the cold war, and …

We need to work with our allies in the Muslim world! (re. against ISIS.)

We should work together with any country in the region (ME) threatened by Islam. But it has to be two-way. They have to appreciate what we have done for them!

Look at WTC and 9/11, worse than Pearl Harbor!

(Back to ISIS) Their days are numbered!

We have to re-build our military and economy! Our nuclear deterrent has atrophied! We will spend what we need to rebuild the military. Our military dominance must be unquestioned!

We have to increase our economic might! Technologial superiority, like cyber-warfare!

(Veterans must be treated well issue)

In the ME: Our policy: To defeat terrorists and not radical change

Friendship with Russia and China, we are not bound to be adversaries, but can find common ground, Russia also suffered from terrorism. If we cant make a deal with Russia we will walk from the table!

China respects strength, we have a massive trade deficit, etc. We need a better relationship with China, but can go our separate ways if need be.

NATO’S outdated mission and structure has to be updated

But if America fights it must only fight to win! We need a plan for victory with a capital V

Against the war in Iraq (me!), proudly, because it enabled Iran!

==I stopped there==

So Trump wants to attack Iran - put aggro against Russia on the back burner for now as unrealistic - be firm but fair (?) re trade w. China - support Israel and, bis, support Israel - turn the EU into more of a vassal, make ‘em pay - and concentrate on attacking radical Islam, which may mean he is ready to let KSA sink into its own mire. Which move is already going on apace.

Posted by: Noirette | May 2 2016 17:40 utc | 229

@231 Noirette

Thanks for the rundown. It's hard to take talk from the Donald seriously. It's hard to take the duopoly seriously. Well, their blather. The consequences for all of us of their continued misrule are very serious. We need to come up with a workable alternative. You all know my suggestion. Any others?

Posted by: jfl | May 2 2016 22:14 utc | 230

Hillary Clinton and Electoral Fraud

Exit polling doesn't match the results in Democratic Primary races. The article doesn't even mention the 6 coin tosses that Hillary won in the Iowa caucus.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 3 2016 4:59 utc | 231

@233 jr

I put voting in the usa together some time ago, although it needs to be brought up to date, both in terms of data and examples - I can use some of the information at your link, thanks - and in terns of the evolution of the problem and of my own response to it - write-in elections.

Things cannot go on as they are now, they can only deteriorate further and further. We must fix things now, before - like climate change - we've let the possibility of fixing things itself slip through our fingers. 'Fortunately', things are wrong at such a radicle level that we will be forced to enact radicle solutions. No rearranging the deckchairs now. Now it will be worth our while to stir our stumps, to take off the gloves, and to put things in order.

Posted by: jfl | May 3 2016 7:45 utc | 232

May 4. Trump wins Indiana. Cruz concedes defeat.
Trump gracious in victory. Cruz, not so gracious, adopts role of sore loser.
True colours?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 4 2016 12:41 utc | 233

May 4 - (on the demise of Cruz/ the future for Trump and the Repugs).

Interview: Michael Duffy, Deputy Managing Editor of Time Magazine (11-35)
I'm posting this video and transcript because I find it fascinating that no-one is prepared to stick his or her neck out by predicting what the future holds for Trump. Duffy's speculation covers a broad spectrum of possibilities and he makes some fairly harsh-but-true observations about Trump's lacklustre "competitors."
Today, I'm so-o glad I'm not AmeriKKKan. Imagine having to choose between untested Trump and the mendacious, warmongering poisoned chalice, Killary?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 4 2016 15:25 utc | 234

Trump names hedge fund boss as finance chairman

Billionaire Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, announced Thursday that hedge fund boss Steven Mnuchin had agreed to become his national finance chairman for the general election campaign. Mnuchin will be tasked with raising as much as $1 billion for the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee.

The decision marks a shift in Trump’s campaign operations, which have largely self-funded and have relied more on free media coverage than paid advertisements. As of the latest reports filed with the Federal Election Commission, the Trump campaign has spent about $48 million, of which $36 million came from a series of loans from the candidate, which could be repaid from future contributions. The remaining $12 million came from individual contributions.

The choice of Mnuchin is a demonstration of the cynical doubletalk that has become a trademark of the Trump campaign. While posturing as the defender of those devastated by the Wall Street crash and the dismal-to-nonexistent economic “recovery” under Obama, Trump has brought in as his finance chairman a Wall Street figure closely tied to the mass evictions and foreclosures that were characteristic of the subprime mortgage collapse.

“Steven is a professional at the highest level with an extensive and very successful financial background,” Trump said in a statement. “He brings unprecedented experience and expertise to a fundraising operation that will benefit the Republican Party and ultimately defeat Hillary Clinton.” Actually, Mnuchin’s “experience” includes making financial contributions to Hillary Clinton for both her US Senate and presidential campaigns.

Mnuchin was a partner for 17 years at Goldman Sachs, the biggest and most influential Wall Street investment bank, which has supplied top Washington officials for decades, including the Treasury secretaries in the administrations of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

@136 hoarse 'Today, I'm so-o glad I'm not AmeriKKKan. Imagine having to choose between untested Trump and the mendacious, warmongering poisoned chalice, Killary?'

You wouldn't choose between the two, Hoarse, you'd write-in the name of someone you'd actually want to see president ... and as importantly, representative and senator, wouldn't you?

Posted by: jfl | May 8 2016 22:35 utc | 235

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