Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 24, 2015

The Two Versions Of The Latakia Plane Incident

Edited and updated

Turkey says two of its F-16 fighters shot down a jet that had crossed into Turkey and then crashed in Syria:

Two Turkish F-16's shot down a Russian-made SU-24 jet on Nov. 24 near the Syrian border after it violated Turkish airspace, presidential sources said.

Turkey shot down the jet after it failed to heed the warnings within the rules of engagement.

Initial reports said the jet belonged to Russia, but presidential sources later clarified that the jet's nationality was unknown.

The Turkish Armed Force also stated that the jet of “unknown nationality” had been warned 10 times in five minutes about its violation of the border.

Meanwhile, a Turkish official told Reuters that two warplanes approached Turkish border and were warned before one of them was shot down.

The jet was Russian SU-24. One pilot was killed and the body is in the hands of "rebels". At the of a video the "rebels" made of the dead pilot they call themselves "mujahideen". One picture shows the body with two bullet holes in the chests suggesting that he was illegally executed. A rebel source claims that he was shot while parachuting from the burning plane. That is a war crime under the Geneva Convention. A second pilot was probably wounded but was said to have landed somewhere in Syrian army covered territory. The search for him is ongoing.

Russia's official version of the incident is remarkably different from Turkey's:

Today an aircraft from the Russian air group in the Syrian Arab Republic crashed on the territory of Syria supposedly shot down from the ground.

The aircraft was flying at the altitude of 6 000 metres. The status of the Russian pilots is being defined.

According to the preliminary data, the pilots managed to eject from the warplane.

The circumstances of the crash are being defined.

During all the flight time, the aircraft was flying only within the borders of the Syrian territory. That was registered by objective monitoring data.

The Russian version leaves it open who shot the plane down. Is that meant to deescalate?

Turkey claims that the red line here shows the flightpath of the Russian plane.



bigger

If that is correct than the (alleged) violation of Turkey's airspace was for just some 5 seconds and would in no way justify to shot down the plane. Just Friday Turkey "warned" Russia over attacks on "Turkmen" in Syria. This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush. Most NATO country will shake their heads over the irresponsible Turkish behavior and will not get further involved such lunacy.

So there will likely be no war over this but a lot of strong statements will be issued. NATO councils and the UN Security Council may meet. But the propaganda preparation for war is targeted at the Islamic State and Syria, not at Russia.

In a separate incident two Russian journalists covering the Syrian army were wounded by a projectile from the "rebels".

The Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov canceled his visit to Turkey which was planned for tomorrow. After having lost many "western" tourists Turkey will now also lose the last Russian guests. There are many hotels in Antalya that will have to close down. Turkey's energy supplies depend on Russian (and Iranian) gas. The shooting down of the plane may lead to "technical problems" with those supplies. The PKK fighting the state in Turkey's east may soon have a new sponsor and modern weapon supplies.

The area where the plane came down is in Latakia, some 3.5 kilometers from the Turkish border. It is in the hand of what Turkey calls "Turkmen" which may mean imported Uighur and Uzbek Islamist fighters - mujahideen like they call themselves in the video. They are now already under sharply increased artillery fire. They may soon have to endure some very violent direct attacks by Russian special forces. Future Russian air-to-ground attacks in the area will be flown with "top cover" from additional fighter jets ready to engage the Turks with the very best Russian weapons as soon as they make the tiniest mistake.

In short. This Turkish escalation step will be answered.

UPDATE: Putin just held a press conference with the Jordan King Abdullah on his side(!) and boy was he pissed. Some major points:

  • Confirms Turkish version of air-to-air missile but says plane was in Syrian airspace
  • Describes Turkish attack as "a stab in the back by accomplices of terrorists"
  • "Together with our US partners we signed an agreement to prevent" incidents like this
  • "Ankara will discuss this tragedy with NATO as if it was Russia who shot down their jet. Does Turkey want NATO to serve ISIS goals?"
  • Accuses Turkey of financing, protecting ISIS
  • Turkey doing oil business with ISIS
  • This will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations

 

Posted by b on November 24, 2015 at 11:37 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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anglozionist haters in a cordial and strategic meeting :

http://english.khamenei.ir

Posted by: Sufi | Nov 24 2015 17:00 utc | 101

So what is going on now ...

Russian pilots alive, efforts ongoing to bring them to Turkey: Sources

Someone telling Turkey to climb down from the provocation?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24 2015 17:01 utc | 102

After Paris and Bamako, now it is al Arish and Tunis
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/171560/Egypt/Politics-/UPDATE--Seven-killed-in-North-Sinai-militant-attac.aspx
IS supporters will rejoice on twitter/FB today. some more work for Anonymous. and it's probably going to continue til Christmas until they get dry of active cells

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24 2015 17:03 utc | 103

B recently linked to an 11/21 article by M.K. Bhadrakumar on Turkey's next steps; in the beginning, he writes:
"That is the assessment one can make regarding the extraordinary demarche made by Turkey on Friday threatening Russia with “serious consequences” unless the latter ended this military operation (air strikes) “as early as possible” in northern Syria close to the Turkish border inhabited by the Turkmen tribes. Importantly, the Turkish threat was generic in character and not specific to any particular incident." Apparently, Lavrov's 11/25 visit was to discuss these matters.
What happened? Did Erdogan finally bit more than he can chew?
In any case, I recommend re-reading the article http://atimes.com/2015/11/turkey-gets-toehold-on-syrian-territory-finally/
It lays out T's position quite clearly.
Let's just hope it is the beginning of the end for Erdogan.

Posted by: GoraDiva | Nov 24 2015 17:04 utc | 104

No comment. ugh.

Syrian Rebels Destroy Russian Helicopter With US-Supplied Anti-Tank Missile

In a second serious escalation, another FSA-aligned group claimed to have shot down a Russian search and rescue helicopter.

You can read our full coverage here, but just note that if the FSA's 1st Coastal Brigade did indeed use an American-made TOW to destroy a Russian aircraft, it confirms exactly what we said on Monday when we detailed the American, Turkish, and Saudi-sponsored program to supply anti-tank missiles to the Syrian opposition:

Obviously, this is the very definition of absurdity. It would be bad enough if the US were supplying TOWs to anyone in Syria. But this is Washington and Riyadh handing anti-tank missiles to forces that are firing them at the Iranians who are operating under cover of Russian airstrikes. Just to drive that home: the US is waging war against Iran and Russia with but one degree of separation.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/caught-tape-syrian-rebels-destroy-russian-helicopter-us-supplied-anti-tank-missile

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 24 2015 17:07 utc | 105

The most delirious party of this attack would be the US for sure. It can only further separate turkey from Russian interests and co-operation, and bring Turkey closer to NATO. Not sure how realistic Erdogan is, but NATO sees turkey as nothing but a expendable tool.
There could even be prearranged energy compensation or replacement deals, that if you attack Russia, or you potentially lose your gas deal, we will supply you with Western supplied energy. The evil US empire would do anything and in anyway, to drive wedges so to bring in more support to their side.

Turkey leaders have for years now, been showing its despicable criminal commitment to overthrowing Syrian government using proxy terrorists. This attack on the Russian plane is a further example of their commitment.
The consequences are so serious, I don't see this as an accident whatsoever.

When the Russian plane a few weeks ago went into Turkish airspace, that was a deliberate act demonstrating to Turkey, saying, 'don't fuck with us'. And if the Turks map above is right, and that Russian plane did again enter Turkush air space, even if for seconds, the Turks upped the ante, and said to the Russians, now you don't fuck with us.

Is that SU 24 - A ground attack aircraft ? If so, then how could that be considered a threat to Turkish ground interests ?

Posted by: tom | Nov 24 2015 17:08 utc | 106

A most valuable gift from Putin to the Supreme Leader of Iran, this I the right approach for a longlasting and strategic partnership...

http://english.khamenei.ir/photo/2547/Photos-Putin-offered-an-old-Quran-manuscript-to-Ayatollah-Khamenei

Posted by: Sufi | Nov 24 2015 17:08 utc | 107

The 11/21 Asia Times article also confirms the US role...

Posted by: GoraDiva | Nov 24 2015 17:22 utc | 108

Is that SU 24 - A ground attack aircraft ? If so, then how could that be considered a threat to Turkish ground interests ?

Posted by: tom | Nov 24, 2015 12:08:03 PM | 105

The type of Aircraft it was makes absolutely no difference to whether or not it was a legit target from the Turkish p.o.v.

Once the provocation/violation occurred Russia was in the wrong, according to International law.

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 17:23 utc | 109

RUSSIA HAS UN MANDATE TO DESTROY THESE TERRORIST!

These mountains are the site of the 2013 Latakia massacres. ISIS terrorist took control of the border areas and border posts on the Turkish side and stormed into Alawite and Armenian villages in Syria, massacring hundreds and hundreds of civilians.

On this video you see ISIS commander Katibat il Muhajiroon (screenshot), of the Muhajireen Brigade giving an interview to Al Jazeera TV in front of his soon to be raped and murdered captives. Hundreds of Alawite women and children were taken prisoner. Some of the children were later released, The women were sold off as sex slaves or killed if deemed too old. Most have likely died by now.

Note the ISIS flag in the background. In August 2013 ISIS (ISIL), al-Nusra Front and al-Qaeda were different names for the same organization. Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar was earlier affiliated with ISIL but has now pledged allegiance to the Al-Qaeda affiliated Al-Nusra Front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar

There are other U.S. sponsored terrorist groups operating in northern Latakia and the Idlib Governorate. Their role is mainly to operate as anti-tank teams for al-Nusra led armies. The areas on both sides of the border are de-facto controlled by the al-Nusra front. It is impossible for anyone to enter without al-Nusra approval. A Pentagon-trained group sent to fight ISIL tied in August, but they were killed, captured of disarmed by al-Nusra.

Turkey has been arming and supporting these terrorist for 4 years. Russia is now fighting them, after being invited to do so by the internationally recognized Syrian government. As of November 20, 2015 it also has a UN Security Council mandate to do so: The Security Council "Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures..."

Turkish F-16 jets shot down a Russian Su-24 bomber preforming this mission. Turkey claims the plain had momentarily crossed into Turkish territory. Maybe. This border territory is however NOT under Turkish control, but is ruled by al-Nusra and affiliates. If Turkey wants to prove otherwise, it better organize a guided tour for the international press.

SOURCES on the Latakia massacres:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Latakia_Massacres
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Latakia_Massacres
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/11/latakia-massacres-august-2013.html
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/11/fsa-isis-teamwork-in-latakia-massacres.html
https://urs1798.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/gerechtigkeit-fur-einen-ehrwurdigen-alten-mann-badr-ghazal-ermordet-von-nato-erdowans-al-kaidas-syria-salma/
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2013/10/10/you-can-still-see-their-blood

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Nov 24 2015 17:24 utc | 110

us economy is collapsing; it needs war, big war. but the ptb don't want to be incinerated so they need proxies, big ones, such as europeans, turks. sort of an upgraded 70's afghanistan. get russia heavily involved to damage economy, undermine leadership, etc. -- also to keep the poodles on the leashes. (where's cool-headed noirette to sort this out?)
thanks for your excellent posts, b. you cover lots of ground in doing your homework.

Posted by: bolasete | Nov 24 2015 17:28 utc | 111

What's to be made of Russian culpability? Russia would have known quite well that violating the border of a country itching for an opportunity to provoke more violence might result in such an incident. Despite the Turkish territory dipping into Syria like a peninsula, it is still Turkish territory, and Russia is more aware than anyone where those borders are and what the interests of Turkey are. Why risk it?

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 24 2015 17:31 utc | 112

Listening to Hollande and Obama now. It all seems very coordinated. Hollande: Assad must go. Obama: Russia needs to "focus on ISIS" and stay away from the so called moderate rebels. They cannot stop gloating. Oh and of course "turkey has a right to defend itself....and it's terrorists too, of course."

Posted by: Lysander | Nov 24 2015 17:37 utc | 113

this is what happens when someone wants to escalate..

@108 Sukhoi.. thanks for keeping us up to date on international law, something that the west is so attached to following.. i say that with as much snark as you can find to throw into this..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2015 17:41 utc | 114

In their press conference right now Obomber and Flanby (nickname of Hollande for his strong resemblance with this type of caramel flan https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanby) are blaming Russia for its bombig of the so-called "moderate rebels" refering to the Turkish retaliation.
Let's wait tomorrow til all the MSM have videos of happy djihadists celebrating on their Twitter accounts today's attacks in Syria, Egypt and Tunis and we'll get back to Obomber and Flanby.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24 2015 17:41 utc | 115

I think it is time we see this Russian technology that disrupts communications and navigation. Can that technology be projected in this situation w/o causing further escalation?

I am sorry but I have to say I occasionally chuckle at the sensitivity that all are exuding during this watershed period. Our armchair leadership with our textual white noise may make us feel better but it is unlikely it will change the direction of matters much. That said, Onward into the breech!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2015 17:44 utc | 116

From RusVesna via fortruss:

the expert explained why Russian bombers flew without fighter support. "The fighters cover the bombers from possible air attacks. Where there is a danger. But ISIS has no aviation. And the anti-terrorist operation was coordinated with all coalition countries, including Turkey. …

the procedure for responding to the airspace violation by foreign aircraft is different in each country. "Before it used to be like this: they raised fighters, which gave the stranger a special warning that it violated the airspace. If it did not respond, it was forced to land. If they failed, a decision about its destruction was made. But this decision was not made by the pilots, who were sent out for the intercept, but the command center on the ground," said the pilot.

So Turkey shooting down the Russian plane was in effect an act of war, as if we didn't know that already.

Turkey has been a rogue state since it invaded and occupied Cyprus. It is a scandal ignored by the Western media that a NATO member would behave with impunity as Israel does, flouting international law. So if NATO is going to let Turkey occupy other countries, of course it's not going to object to this latest atrocity.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 24 2015 17:47 utc | 117

@#99 My 2 cents: RTE's early substantive comments are not trollish. But, some of the follow-on comments ("for the 4th time") are not constructive.

Posted by: stupid observer | Nov 24 2015 17:48 utc | 118

shadyl

At the same time what do Russia expect, I saw those helicopters going very low.

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24 2015 17:49 utc | 119

@108 Sukhoi.. thanks for keeping us up to date on international law, something that the west is so attached to following.. i say that with as much snark as you can find to throw into this..

Posted by: james | Nov 24, 2015 12:41:01 PM | 113

oh stfu you boring twat

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 17:57 utc | 120

@#99 My 2 cents: RTE's early substantive comments are not trollish. But, some of the follow-on comments ("for the 4th time") are not constructive.

Posted by: stupid observer | Nov 24, 2015 12:48:20 PM | 117

I thought that too until I realised that some of the replying commenters are/were clearly retarded

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 18:08 utc | 121

Obama has just said that there is always a danger of this kind of thing happening when you fly close to the Turkish border. In other words if you are a pedestrian walking along a pavement and a vehicle mounts the kerb and deliberately mows you down. Somehow that's the pedestrians fault. Obama is an empty suit.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24 2015 18:23 utc | 122

ZIONIST PIG NEWS ALERT!

That self-important sack of shit, Hollande and his 'rent boy,' Obama, are giving a joint news conference at the WH. Hollande is puffing himself up, showing the world how big his ego is, when everyone knows France hasn't been relevant since they got kicked out of Indo-China back in 1954, but that hasn't stopped them strutting around like bad asses. This display of impotency was/is on all cable news channels, even the business ones and one all local channels, which is telling.

At the same time, NATO's Secretary-General was giving a press conference and said that it was time to 'deescalate' the Turkey-Russian incident and pull back. Whew, that means NATO wants no part of Erdogan's batshit crazy maneuvers in Syria.

My take on it is that the USA, Israel and England have been whispering in Erdogan's ear, slyly telling him that Turkey can be a world power, playing with the Big Boys, all you have to do is to irritate the Bear and when it responds, we'll come to your rescue.
Just like what France and England told Poland about Germany before WWII.

Posted by: Greg Bacon | Nov 24 2015 18:25 utc | 123

P!115

The fact that the Turk/US fighter jet easily shot down the Russian SU and sent it flaming to auger into the battlefield shows that no imaginary Russian invulnerability shield exists or can be used. The adaptation of the TOW missile to bring down a Russian chopper may be more important for the rebels in the coming battles.

Putin is facing more trouble than he expected now that he peers into the breach.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Nov 24 2015 18:26 utc | 124

Cruise missile strike on the Greasers? That would be the American response and they HAVE been simply begging for it. Maybe closing Syrian airspace/border to turk planes and vaporizing whatever Turkmen remain on the ground? That would be my suggestion. NATO has not made any indication that they will simply, unconditionally support the turks on this. The plane was clearly downed in Syrian airspace, even the Pentagram admits that (so far)

Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 24 2015 18:32 utc | 125

@ tom @ 105

Turkey has been a member of NATO for over 70 years.

Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 24 2015 18:33 utc | 126

Wayoutwest

No helicopter has been shut down, it was attacked on the ground,
a gullible imbecille like you wouldnt know of course due heavy brainwashing.

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24 2015 18:34 utc | 127

First response by Russia: Russia to suspend military cooperation with Turkey
https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24 2015 18:39 utc | 128

It would be nice to have a new open thread. A friend just sent me a propaganda anti-refugee youtube video. Don't know how it fits into the big picture. Do people really think multiculturalism will work in Europe? Especially since NATO is involved in destroying any countries in the ME that are attempting to become secular?

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 24 2015 18:40 utc | 129

@shadyl@129

Looking at the other bylines this morning I think its becoming clear that this(latest major incident) is part of the gradual US led NATO escalation. Germany and Denmark are claiming to be "preparing" to entire the war in Syria. I think Russia will have to make a strong response to Erdogan, if they hope to head that off. Obama has proclaimed again, today that 'regime change' is the only way forward as far as the US and its stooges are concerned. If Russia doesn't respond severely, the attacks on Russian and Syrian assets in Syria will escalate. I believe the whole point of this thing is to "call Russia bluff". Putin told Erdogan that he would burn the ground under capitain handlebars' feet if he persists in his aggression. Well, here is the response. A direct attack on Russia. Russia's only other option is to move toward meeting the Americans but that would require surrender. At this point I don't think Russia can surrender, or what was the point anyway ?

Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 24 2015 18:54 utc | 130

@ wayoyut @123

The Russian plane was a ground attack aircraft, not equipped for dueling with the turk F15 .

Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 24 2015 18:57 utc | 131

Is Erdogan of Turkey implementing its buffer zone near its border?

Turkish Letter to UN Security Council

Letter from Turkish Ambassador tio the U.N. Security Council | Al Jazeera |

Upon instructions from my government, I am writing to you with regard to an incident
related to the violation of Turkish airspace.

I refer to our previous letters dated 16 October 2015, 18 May 2015, 23 March 2014,
16 September 2013, 12 November 2012 and 24 June 2012 to the Security Council regarding the
violation of Turkey's sovereignty, territorial integrity and security. In those letters, we underlined
the determination of the Government of the Republic of Turkey to protect its citizens and borders
and reminded the new rules of military engagement concerning Syria, adopted on June 26, 2012.

This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown
have approached Turkish national airspace in Yayladagi/Hatay region. The planes in question
have been warned 10 times during a period of 5 minutes via "Emergency" channel and asked
to change their headings south immediately.

Disregarding these warnings, both planes, at an altitude of 19,000 feet, violated Turkish
national airspace to a depth of 1,36 miles and 1,a5 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9.24'.05"
local time.

Following the violation, plane 1 left Turkish national airspace. Plane 2 was fired at
while in Turkish national airspace by Turkish F-16s performing air combat patrolling in that
area in accordance with the rules of engagement. Plane 2 crashed onto the Syrian side of the
Turkish/Syrian border.


H.E. Mr. Matthew Rycroft
Ambassador
President of the Security Council
United Nations

Cc: H.E. Mr. Ban Ki-moon
Secretary General of the United Nations

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24 2015 19:01 utc | 132

@psakiwacky #130:

If Russia doesn't respond severely, the attacks on Russian and Syrian assets in Syria will escalate.

I think Tony Cartalucci gets it right:

Russia’s best bet is to simply continue winning the war. Taking the Jarabulus-Afrin corridor and fortifying it against NATO incursions while cutting off ISIS and other terrorist factions deeper within Syria would be perhaps the worst of all possible retaliations.
My "Russian intuition" tells me that this is what Russia will do. Such a provocation is exactly what the West would do if it were losing in Syria. And Putin doesn't have to prove anything to the Russian people.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 24 2015 19:09 utc | 134

I apologize if this has already been said. Obama's statement is being played interspersed with RT's coverage. Long ago I called for his impeachement. I am doing so in the strongest terms now, on the basis of his criminal statement in support of Turkey. I am horrified at what he has said. This is an impeachable offense to side with Turkey's official position on this and endanger ongoing efforts on Russia's part to prevent an escalation of terrorism in the region.

I apologize for my adopted country to the citizens of Russia and particularly to the families of the murdered airmen. There are no good guys attacking the Russian forces who are engaged in restoring stability - there are simply crazed and greedy megalomaniacs and Erdogan is one of them.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 24 2015 19:18 utc | 135

@ Greg Bacon | Nov 24, 2015 1:25:29 PM | 122

My take on it is that the USA, Israel and England have been whispering in Erdogan's ear, slyly telling him that Turkey can be a world power, playing with the Big Boys, all you have to do is to irritate the Bear and when it responds, we'll come to your rescue.

Just like what France and England told Poland about Germany before WWII.

Just like what April Glaspie told Saddam Hussein in 1990.

Posted by: PhilK | Nov 24 2015 19:22 utc | 136

Sukoi @ 108

If it did violate Turkish air space, that does not give Turkey free reign to shoot down the plane. Didn't mention that did you.

And the idea of that legitimacy itself, and context of the possible border crossing - Is relevant to you, shows that your a narrowminded fool. Where is the intent, what is the actual threats level, and whether it was an accident in the heat of battle, are all relevant factors and place legitimacy and context as far more important aspects then legality. Every idiot knows that legallity is not an excuse for shooting down that Russian plane.

Even the Turks know that Russia poses no threat whatsoever to Turkish territory in any way whatsoever. But you say they do ? tell me how and show it.

Posted by: tom | Nov 24 2015 19:23 utc | 137

If it did violate Turkish air space, that does not give Turkey free reign to shoot down the plane.

It 100% absolutely does.

You agreeing or disagreeing won't change that.

Didn't mention that did you.

why would I? It's 100% absolutely wrong!

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 19:26 utc | 138

NATO to Erdogan: Stop this nonsense you fucking stupid idiot!

NATO envoys urge Turkey to show restraint after Russian warplane downed

NATO ambassadors called on Ankara to show "cool-headedness" on Tuesday following an emergency meeting in Brussels, after Turkey shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border, diplomats said.

Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 NATO envoys defended Russia's actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace.

"There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents," said one diplomat who declined to be named.

Posted by: b | Nov 24 2015 19:26 utc | 139

@135 juliania.. we are watching as the world sanity unravels here...

@124 bruno marz... same deal with Sukhoi.. the new trolls at moa - same as the old trolls..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2015 19:27 utc | 140

@139 b.. thanks.. a temporary moment for sane words in the face of escalating actions... lets see if nato can back any of it up with sane actions.. as the saying goes - actions speak louder then words..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2015 19:29 utc | 141

b deleting posts.. that's good.. hope he can delete Sukhoi's bullshite while he is at it..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2015 19:32 utc | 142

Even the Turks know that Russia poses no threat whatsoever to Turkish territory in any way whatsoever.

So what?

the aircraft violated turkish airspace, and the pilot paid the price. That is all that is relevant. You claiming that "it poses no threat because it is a ground-attack aircraft" is simply pointless. It has nuttin to do with nuttin. your estimation of the threat is immaterial. You're not the one making military decisions for the Turks.

russia repeatedly violating Turkish airspace IS a threat to Turkish sovereignty - doesn't matter if they violate it with an SU24, Mig31 or a Cessna. and you don't have to agree with that, for it to be true.

It would still be true even if you said 1,000 times it was not.

But you say they do ?

I never said anything of the sort. I have no idea why you would tell such a lie.

tell me how and show it.

No.

why would I waste my time doing that?

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 19:33 utc | 143

Has anyone considered that this was a deliberate NATO tactic to have an excuse to avoid a joint Western/Russian front against ISIS? It's been obvious for a while that the West wants to keep ISIS around, and since the Paris incident the demands for a coalition was building. Now with a couple of 'accidents' like this, Russia will no longer be a willing NATO partner.

Posted by: jz | Nov 24 2015 19:36 utc | 144

@137

Wrong, does not equate to justification dip shit.

I didn't mention your stupidity because it's clearly wrong.

What's wrong, justification and legitimacy are foreign concept to you? Legality without those two principles mean The law has no validity. Congratulations deep shit, your reinforcing your own stupidity at lightspeed.

Posted by: tom | Nov 24 2015 19:37 utc | 145

meh, whatever.

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 19:43 utc | 146

Stupid question, has Turkey ever bombed ISIS, ISIL or any other rebel group?

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 24 2015 19:48 utc | 147

@jz #144:

with a couple of 'accidents' like this, Russia will no longer be a willing NATO partner.

(1) As if Russia could be so easily manipulated. (2) NATO was never serious about working with Russia against IS or any other terrorist group.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 24 2015 19:51 utc | 148

Posted by: jz | Nov 24, 2015 2:36:54 PM | 144

That has been Turkey's plan. The Guardian's summary of the Obama - Hollande press conference indicates Turkey is alone in this.

They urged Turkey and Russia to talk directly to prevent any escalation. The White House said the incursion lasted only seconds. Nato officials said Turkish aircraft could have escorted the plane out of Turkey.

There is also this from the press conference

They agreed on the importance of closing the Turkish border to limit the movement of extremists into Europe.

There are also the usual points of Russia not concentrating on ISIS of course. But "closing the border" is very different from a "safe zone".

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24 2015 19:51 utc | 149

@Demian@134

Exactly.

Without opening the link you provided, just reading Cartalucci's quote, he is going in the right direction, same with your "Russian intuition." Casualties are part of the trade in war, no one can teach the Russians about that. The right path is "follow the strategy," and the Russian strategy is winning, therefore, there will be all kinds of traps along the way to deviate them. Erdogan's Turkey is performing a macho-man act, a great opportunity for Russia to get deeper in Syria, seal the border, bomb the hell out of all traces of takfiris, included Turkmen, Turks, and Turkish rats along the border, deploy some S-300 systems, and wait for the fucking Turks.

Every crisis is an opportunity, the Chinese like to say.

And Peter the Great was right then, and now.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 19:52 utc | 150

@tom, @sukoi:

Lavrov had intended to discuss de-confliction the meeting he was to have with the Turks tomorrow (now canceled).

Even if the attack was strictly legal, it was an unnecessary, wrong-headed provocation. And very intentionally so.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 19:56 utc | 151

Sukoi @143.

Your supposed to dig out of your own holes, not further down.

It's amazing you're morality, that you would place a potential five second violation as rationalised forfeit of those pilots lives . Atrocious. You display an armchair casual disregard for life so easily, it's disturbing. I'm so glad it's on display for the world see.

if that was a groud attack aircraft, name for me what Turkish groud targets was it targeting ? The Turks know themselves the Russian plane was not tagerting anything in Turkey. It's completely relevant has everything to do with everything.
What targets what are the Turks worried about ? Without a threat it has no legitimacy to end those lives.
If the law doesn't allow for legitimacy and context then what is the point of the law ? you're actually arguing for illegitimate and unjustified legality you dip shit.

Such a casual disregard for life, snd the serious potential for a greater war and for loss of more life, it really is disturbing.

Please reply back and let's see how much worse you can get.

Posted by: tom | Nov 24 2015 19:57 utc | 152

RTE is just a State Dept troll.

Tell me RTE. How many times has Turkey violated Syria's and Greece's airspace in the past month.

It's over a dozen and nobody shot their planes out of the air.

Now get back to the Nudleman Plantation before she chops off your feet.

Posted by: Bunghole | Nov 24 2015 19:58 utc | 153

Guardian on Russia being right that Turkey supports ISIS

Concerns continued to grow in intelligence circles that the links eclipsed the mantra that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” and could no longer be explained away as an alliance of convenience. Those fears grew in May this year after a US special forces raid in eastern Syria, which killed the Isis official responsible for the oil trade, Abu Sayyaf.

A trawl through Sayyaf’s compound uncovered hard drives that detailed connections between senior Isis figures and some Turkish officials. Missives were sent to Washington and London warning that the discovery had “urgent policy implications”.
Few will believe Russia’s ‘proof’ that its jet was in Syrian airspace
Keir Giles
Read more

Shortly after that, Turkey opened a new front against the Kurdish separatist group, the PKK, with which it had fought an internecine war for close to 40 years. In doing so, it allowed the US to begin using its Incirlik air base for its operations against Isis, pledging that it too would join the fray. Ever since, Turkey’s jets have aimed their missiles almost exclusively at PKK targets inside its borders and in Syria, where the YPG, a military ally of the PKK, has been the only effective fighting force against Isis – while acting under the cover of US fighter jets.
Senior Turkish officials have openly stated that the Kurds – the main US ally in Syria – pose more of a threat than Isis to Turkey’s national interests. Yet, through it all, Turkey, a Nato member, continues to be regarded as an ally by Europe. The US and Britain have become far less enamoured, but are unwilling to do much about it. The worry in both capitals is that to do so would introuduce yet another variable into an already highly volatile region, where alliances, strategies, and implications are constantly changing.

I would say Turkey is isolated. That does not mean some part of the US/NATO multiheaded beast is not in business with its secret services.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24 2015 20:01 utc | 154

b: In short. This Turkish escalation step will be answered.

First signs of that already:

Russian state tourism agency Rostourism has recommended suspending sales of tour packages to Turkey. One of the biggest Russian tour operators Natalie tours has already announced temporary suspension of sales of trips to Turkey.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 20:01 utc | 155

Минобороны России
1m1 minute ago
Минобороны России ‏@mod_russia
#SYRIA #Rudskoy Syrian Air Defence Forces and objective monitoring data confirm: Rus aircraft did not cross the Turkish borderline.

Posted by: Our ma | Nov 24 2015 20:02 utc | 156

As I predicted @57

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg:

"We stand in solidarity with Turkey and support the territorial integrity of our NATO ally,"

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 20:09 utc | 157

Turkey has been a member of NATO for over 70 years.
Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 24, 2015 1:33:31 PM | 126

FYI - NATO has not been in existence for 70 years; it was established in 1949... Turkey joined in 1952 (not sure it matters at this point)...

Posted by: GoraDiva | Nov 24 2015 20:13 utc | 158

Posters

Same way the Turks had an ambush ready for the Russian bomber, trolls were ready to ambush our thread this morning. Fortunately, we know each other very well, and we know who the trolls are immediately. There is no need to engage them, feed them, quarrel with them. They are trolls, and their job is to spit trash. Best way to deal with them is to ask b to kill their posts and their posting abilities, no more, no less.

I mean, what can we tell the "Retarded Turkey son-of Erdogan" (RTE), or nincompoop sucker "Sukhoi"? Nothing.

As I said before, posting in an open forum, is like taking a stroll in a park: you can admire and smell the flowers (read & learn from other posters), or bitch about the dog shit (trolls.)

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 20:18 utc | 159

Stoltenberg spoke too soon. The diplomats tell a different story. Basically in the backrooms NATO scolded Erdogan and Obama did his usual non-committal passive aggressive routine for the benefit of American neocons.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24 2015 20:23 utc | 160

Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any target posing danger | RT |

Russia now plans to implement new measures aimed at strengthening the security of the country’s air base in Syria and in particular to bolster air defense.

Russian guided missile cruiser Moskva, equipped with the ‘Fort’ air defense system, similar to the S-300, will be deployed off Latakia province's coast.

"We warn that every target posing a potential threat will be destroyed,” lieutenant general Sergey Rudskoy said during the briefing.

The Moskva (‘Moscow’) missile cruise is a flagship vessel of the Russian Black Sea fleet and is one of the fleet’s two biggest ships. The cruiser was stationed in Sevastopol but left in summer 2015 after being deployed to the Mediterranean Sea where it joined Russia’s standing naval force in the Mediterranean.

Since September 30, the Moskva cruiser acts as a covering force for the Russian air forces in Syria while deployed in the eastern Mediterranean.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24 2015 20:27 utc | 161

MrBenny:

Those paying attention know that your narrative is a fairy tale.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 20:27 utc | 162

Lone Wolf@150 "Casualties are part of the trade in war, no one can teach the Russians about that". So true, approx 50million Russian dead from WW2. Putin needs to concentrate on closing that 80 mile border from the Syrian side, and really piss off Erdogan and NATO.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24 2015 20:39 utc | 163

This is my one wish out this Turkey-created crisis: Russians need to send a batallion of Spetnatz to blow the so-called "Turkmen" (read Nusra rats) who killed and mocked the Russian pilot when dead, as in the picture below, from the face of the earth.

A Turkish Act of War Against Russia - Public Security Brief: Flores

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 20:41 utc | 164

Here is Russia's version of the flight path

RT also reports that Russia says that there was no warning:
https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/


Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Nov 24 2015 20:43 utc | 165

Jackrabbit this is way above your pay grade and understanding.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24 2015 20:43 utc | 166

@ 164 Lone Wolf

Thanks for the link.
But I had to alter it:
http://fortruss.blogspot.nl/2015/11/a-turkish-act-of-war-against-russia.html

Posted by: From The Hague | Nov 24 2015 20:49 utc | 167

NATO has to publicly endorse the security of member airspace. Expect to near nothing less. That said the diplomats said clearly the plane could have been escorted, meaning that they disagree with the hostile engagement. Most any idiot can infer that. Stoltenberg spoke according to a rulebook, which is what spokespeople do. But even then, he may have been in error. Germany has publicly questioned the predictability or Turkey now, and in no way should this be expected to lead to a broader war. Were there a push for it, NATO itself could dissolve.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24 2015 20:51 utc | 168

some of the replying commenters are/were clearly retarded

Posted by: Suhoki | Nov 24, 2015 1:08:29 PM | 121

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 20:57 utc | 169

I'm new here, but even I can spot those looking to cause trouble as opposed to share and/or learn. Wayoutwest, RTE, Sukhoi, and IHaveLittleToAdd are so blatant in their delivery that it makes me question if there anything we can do well here in the United States anymore. I mean, we can't even hire competent sock puppets? What's this world coming to?

With respect to the Turkish provocation of the Russian Air Force, my condolences to the pilots who have likely understood full well the serious implications of participating in a campaign of this nature. Nonetheless, it pains me to realize that the corrupt fifth column in my own country would sooner side with a barbarian like Erdogan than try to find common ground with Putin and the Russian Federation, especially when the entire terrorism charade has been laid so bare as a ploy of western intelligence.

As many here have speculated, I imagine the Russians won't be so emotional as to allow themselves to be provoked into straying from their larger strategic plan. That said, I wonder when the next shoe will drop to again test their resolve...

Posted by: Bruno Marz | Nov 24 2015 20:57 utc | 170

oh look

there's another one

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 24 2015 21:00 utc | 171

Maybe the drip that made the Turkish bucket run over was Russia damaging the ISIS-Turkey pipeline on weels managed by Erdogan's son. The US never put a dent in it nor did any other country except Russia recently. There are countless response scenario's on the table and completely destroying the pipeline on weels might be one of them. It's also possible it may soon start raining cruise missiles near the Suleyman tomb which is located on Syrian territory. The old tomb location was protected under some treaties but these don't apply to the tactically better new location on Syrian soil and as far as I know no country recognized the annexed area which would make the Turkish soldiers operating there sitting ducks at a shooting range.

Posted by: sao | Nov 24 2015 21:00 utc | 172

For the people who need a picture painted-when Obama says "territorial integrity" he is posturing for American conservatives. When he says "close the border" he is signaling to Putin Turkey is on its own.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24 2015 21:01 utc | 173

NATO is a relic

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24 2015 21:02 utc | 174

RTE says, and he is probably right: "Turkey would not have dared to do it had the plane not violated Turkish airspace."

RTE also says, and he brings to the surface an underlying assumption and prejudice of his that is almost surely mistaken:

"Crossing into the territory of a Sovereign state... almost never happens by accident. The Russkies knew what they were doing when they did it.... Repeatedly violating the Airspace of a potential enemy is always a potential act of war, (whether you like it or not). Until today the Turks have not chosen to respond militarily to these provocations. Today they chose to."
Thus, RTE is thinking the Russians have repeatedly violated Turkey's space by small margins, and not by accident. To which I reply, the Russians would not have dared to do that. For one thing, the Russians don't have a compelling reason or desperate need to do it. If they did it repeatedly, they'd have to be lying about it repeatedly, and they'd almost surely get caught as lying by American military satellites.

Accidents happen.

Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Nov 24 2015 21:10 utc | 175

NATO should have been 'dissolved' decades ago. Today NATO is basically the US Military.

Posted by: crone | Nov 24 2015 21:11 utc | 176

Could Turkey be in the process of being set up to take the rap for the whole ISIS fiasco? It seems reasonable to assume (as argued by Veterans Today) that Erdogan must have been encouraged by some faction within the US establishment (McCain & Co?) to carry out the highly provocative attack on a Russian military jet.

Could Erdogan, furious at the prospect of losing the slice of Syria that he so cherishes (and the oil via his son Bilal), have been goaded into this ill-advised action in order to set him up to take future blame and accusations of war crimes and Russian vendettas away from the other guilty parties in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who at the end of the day still have large reserves of oil and gas? And from Israel and the U.S. itself. A sort of plan B may have been coalescing around a post-ISIS, post-Nusra Syria where the headlines scream: "Mad Dog Erdogan the evil master behind the ISIS curtain."

Posted by: Lochearn | Nov 24 2015 21:17 utc | 177

IMO, the number one best comment among the above 176 comments is the one by 'b' at #37:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s
Video of Putin press conference with King Abduallah of Jordan. English subtitles.

Abdullah is STRONGLY on Russia's side.

Abdullah in his words and in his body language is strongly and unmistakeably on Putin's side. This is new news to me. It is an important item in the landscape of the Syria political situation.

Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Nov 24 2015 21:20 utc | 178

@170 Bruno

Kindly read my post again. In no way am I picking sides, condoning the loss of life, or trying to instigate animosity. I'm simply saying that it'd be prudent to respect the border of a vitriolic country when one is waging warfare against the interests of that country. It's like choosing to screw with the most drunk and unstable person in a bar. Why bother, when not doing so is an equally available option. Simple enough?

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 24 2015 21:27 utc | 179

Hi, I'm Tod, long time reader, and I seem to be the only one with an alternative theory.

I don't think Turkey wanted to down the Russian plane. To me it look very probable they thought it was a Syrian plane.

Think about it. Syria also has Su-24 planes, and Turkey attacked Syrian planes before. They just wanted to look like the big kid on the block, but they hit a Russian plane by mistake.

That explains their panic attack in calling NATO before Russia, they peed their pants when they realized what they have done, and scrambled to find some back-up in case Russia did something stupid.

I think this is the only explanation, at this point, that makes sense.

Think about it, if they were prepared to down a Russian plane, their response would have been more planed, like a press communicate, or recalling their ambassador, or scolding Russia for their aggression. But none of this happened, they just panicked and scrambled for whatever justification they could find.

Posted by: Tod | Nov 24 2015 21:32 utc | 180

@From The Hague@167

Thanks!!!!

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 21:33 utc | 181

Turkey was protesting against Russian airspace violations almost every day of first half of October, summoning Russian ambassador and contacting Russian DoD directly. Turkey has finally warned on 17 October that it will with no hesitation down any further airplanes violating their airspace. Then they waited for over another month. If there's anything surprising here it's Turkish patience...

Posted by: Cortez | Nov 24 2015 21:33 utc | 182

@Cortez@182

Either you're an idiot, or you're a troll, or both. If the former, there is no remedy, if the latter, b will take care of you in due time. Either way, we are not in the mood right now to teach Basic Geopolitics 101 to anyone. How about some remedial school?

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 21:40 utc | 183

"Simple enough?"

Only after-the-fact. I don't recall anyone posting about the likelihood of something like this happening before today. Unthinkable.

Turkey's actions have cleared away some of the cobwebs. People claiming it should have been obvious are dolts.

Posted by: paulmeli | Nov 24 2015 21:48 utc | 184

@Tod@180

That's a plausible explanation. If true at all, Turkish response will evolve on a different path, they will try to appease the Russian anger, even if behind the curtains in order to save face. If not, and if this was an ambush as b stated, Turkey's reaction to a Russian response will tell us more about their true intentions.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 21:48 utc | 185

@MrBenny:

I AGREE with you that NATO doesn't want a confrontation. But you go too far when you say:

... in the backrooms NATO scolded Erdogan

Turkey is not alone in this Syrian fiasco. They are just on a front-line state so they are more visible than KSA, Gulf States, Israel, and others.

In "the back rooms" they are cheering Turkey. The West has had an anti-Russian stance from September 2013 when Russia blocked USA bombing Syria.

Since the Paris attacks, the anti-Assad Coalition have pretended to be an anti-ISIS Coalition and for that reason it has seemed that Russia and France and other nations could work together.

But such joint action is not really in the interests of the anti-Assad camp. They want/need a military intervention by the West to allow a 'safe zone' to control the return of refugees (and prepare them for voting). Turkey has just furthered that agenda.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 21:54 utc | 186

Looking at the chains of events:
- Turkey bravely claims that two F-16 fighters shot down an "unidentified plane" that crossed over it's territory.
- Almost at the same time Russia acknowledges that one of it's bombers was shot down, but their intelligence says it was most probably a land based system. Which makes sense, if they would have expected fighter aircraft, the bomber would have had an escort, and the story would have been very different.
- For one or two hours no news from the Turkish side, except some reports they called for a NATO meeting. Russian side keep investigating the incident.

From most accounts, while Erdogan is something of an Islamist, he is also an opportunist, enriching himself at every opportunity, and hiring his family members in the state apparatus. These kinds of people don't generally do radical things, because they crave wealth, they have no ideological reason to risk losing that wealth or their lives.

As for the aftermath, after you declared: "We shot down a military plane that violated our territory!", thinking it was the lame old Syria, you cannot really say: "Sorry! We wanted to kill the lame Syrian plane, you Russians can cross our borders any time"

Posted by: Tod | Nov 24 2015 21:57 utc | 187

@Ghubar Shabih@178

Abdullah in his words and in his body language is strongly and unmistakeably on Putin's side. This is new news to me. It is an important item in the landscape of the Syria political situation.

Well, there is a vested interest in Abdullah's change of direction, he saw it coming and jumped ship on time. He knows if IS takes Syria and Iraq, he's next. It's pure survival instinct, no more, no less. Abdullah is a mercenary for hire to the highest bidder, without any ideological/political foundation, his decision making only follows the strongest wind in the desert.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24 2015 22:01 utc | 188

@180, I guess that's plausible but if true it means they shot down a "Syrian" plane over Syrian (!!) airspace. Clearly an act of war (though granted it is probably the 11 millionth they've committed against Syria). In other words their explanation is they thought they were picking on a smaller kid but hit the big kid by mistake and then ran to the teachers' for protection.

That's actually more pathetic than what they did do.

As for Russian retaliation, there kind of has to be one of some kind. We have every major presidential candidate saying s/he will shoot down Russian planes to enforce a no fly zone. If Turkey walks they will only scream louder. Retaliation. Doesn't have to be an attack on Turkish territory. Turkey has naval vessels and sometimes they sink by accident. Sometimes accidents occur in clusters, not just once.

Posted by: Lysander | Nov 24 2015 22:02 utc | 189

When turkey shot down Syrian government fighter plane, INSIDE SYRIA.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/turkey-reportedly-shot-down-syrian-plane-2014-3?r=US&IR=T.

Posted by: tom | Nov 24 2015 22:05 utc | 190

@189 Syria had their airspace invaded, and was bombed many times by the Israelis with no retaliation whatsoever. So I see no reason why Turkey wouldn't try to make a point by downing a Syrian plane in Syrian airspace, near the border, without expecting any consequences. That with explain the lack of warning according to Russia. I would have expected some sort of warning when engaging a Russian plane.

Although, something is really strange here, as the pictures of the falling Russian plane, show the wing configuration to be fully swept back, as in running away, but I guess that can be attributed to the crew trying to outrun the missile at the last moment.

I guess Turkey will do all that's in it's power to kill both of the crewmen, so that the truth stays hidden.

Posted by: Tod | Nov 24 2015 22:13 utc | 191

Tod 180
Would it not make more sense to call russia before nato if thats the case?

Posted by: trooper | Nov 24 2015 22:15 utc | 192

The insinuation of the recent posts is that when waging warfare in a given area, it is not necessary to consider the strategic interests of the neighboring participants. Of course it is madness that the jet was shot down, but this Cortez character has shades of a point. Turkey has made it known that they are not interested in Russian warplanes crossing into their airspace. Clearly Turkey is in bed with unsavory actors in Syria. To me that means that like it or not, they have strategic interests that are anathema to war vehicles that intend on striking their agents crossing into their airspace to do so. It's a bully move, but it is still a move that should have been respected. No one here has to agree to the moral strength of their motives, just that they do have motives.

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 24 2015 22:15 utc | 193

@192 Would you call Putin after pissing by mistake on his parade without your big brother present? :)

Just joking, I look at it as a panic reaction. Bureaucrats, or cowards, having to handle unforeseen circumstances.

Posted by: Tod | Nov 24 2015 22:19 utc | 194

Russian military radar data shows the Su-24 skirted south of the finger of Turkish territory that it supposedly crossed (red line) and the Turkish F-16 (blue line) actually entered Syrian airspace (~1 km) to fire at the Su-24.

http://i.imgur.com/bJ4VPKg.jpg

Turkey is now claiming it did not know the country of origin of the aircraft and the US military is saying it doesn't know if the Su-24 entered Turkish airspace.

Posted by: Yonatan | Nov 24 2015 22:22 utc | 195

@183

You should consider a possibility that your "geopolitics" is BS. At least Turkey don't give a fcuk about your (or Sputnik's) version of it. Turkey continued to warn Russia for over a month. Russia placed their bet one time too much and lost. There's nothing more to add here.

Posted by: Cortez | Nov 24 2015 22:26 utc | 196

@1o3, I have no doubt turkey has motives and interests, but so what exactly? It is probably in Turkey's interest to install a puppet government in Syria or to seize a chunk of Syrian territory. Does not mean they are entitled to it. However, maybe the Russians should have known they were dumb enough to try. Turkey should now understand that Russia, Syria and Iran also have inyerests, and theirs are actually consistent with international law, not to mention that of most of humanity.

Also, I seriously doubt the "we thought it was Syrian" explanation. Everything about it sounds like a set up planned in advance and that turkey was assured of NATO backing. What that actually is worth if retaliation gets ugly I'm not sure.

Posted by: Lysander | Nov 24 2015 22:29 utc | 197

@197

And Russia should understand that 1) Turkey has its own borders which it is able to guard effectively, 2) Turkey has a border with Syria and Russia does not have a border with Syria. And apparently Russia has just found its peer in not giving a damn about international law or humanity. The fly-over tricks Russia has been playing with Baltics for the last 2 years apparently don't work with Turkey because it values humanity just as little as Russia does. Maybe Russians should have known that in advance, so that they wouldn't have to learn the lesson in a hard way.

Posted by: Cortez | Nov 24 2015 22:49 utc | 198

@ 197
So what?

Because we're talking about the downing of a warplane over putative sovereign territory, not about the validity of Turkey's foreign policy.

**It should have been clear that I loathe the behavior of Turkey. But the burgeoning herd jingoism and loss of objectivity on this site should be cause for concern.

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 24 2015 22:55 utc | 199

Again, I want to point out that Lavrov was supposed to talk with the Turks tomorrow. Why would Turkey risk an incident ahead of that meeting? And, if the Russians were concerned about the need for de-confliction with Turkey, wouldn't US/NATO have taken note as well?

Further, if one assumes that France and US shifted from anti-Assad to anti-ISIS after the Paris attacks, wouldn't this countries have understood the risk of Turkey's possibly trying to stir the pot? Wouldn't they have made their concerns and expectations very clear to Turkey?

If so, then after the downing of the Russian plane, wouldn't US/NATO have HARSH words for Turkey and provide strong assurances to Russia? What we have seen instead is:

>> some in the West wringing hands (mild rebuke / Turkey is "unpredictable") and others washing them (it is a matter between Turkey and Russia); and

>> Russia now beefing up their defenses (because they haven't received any assurances).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2015 22:55 utc | 200

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