Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 25, 2015

Was The U.S. Involved In The Turkish Attack Against The Russian Jet?

Erdogan criticized Syria harshly on Tuesday for shooting down the Turkish fighter jet, saying: "Even if the plane was in their airspace for a few seconds, that is no excuse to attack."

"It was clear that this plane was not an aggressive plane. Still it was shot down," he said.Turkey hardens military position after Syria downs jet June 27, 2012

A violation of one to two kilometers is accepted as "natural" given the speed of aircraft, the statement [by the the General Staff] said. This year's violations of Turkish airspace lasted between 20 seconds and nine minutes, which showed "airspace violations can be resolved by warning and interceptions," the statement said.
Turkey could have downed 114 planes for airspace violations: Army June 25, 2012
Turkish fighter jets and military helicopters have dramatically increased their incursions into Greek airspace, according to a study based on data from the Greek military, forcing the cash-strapped Greek air force to respond.
Turkey buzzes weakened Greece - In growing numbers Ankara’s fighter jets test Greek territorial claims. - July 23, 2015

Turkey also regularly violates Iraq's airspace by flying bombing attacks against Kurds in north Iraq.

All this provides that yesterday's incident in which Turkey shot down a Russian jet was not a case of an ordinary airspace violation but a deliberate act to take down a Russian plane. The surviving co-pilot of the Russian jet insists that it neither flew through Turkish airspace nor was warned of an imminent attack. As I wrote yesterday:

This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush.

I am not the only one who came to that conclusion. Deep inside a McClatchy piece a "western" diplomat sees it as an "orchestrated" event:

One Western diplomat based in Iraq, but with extensive experience in Syria and Turkey, called the incident “brazenly orchestrated and inevitable,” but asked that the identification of his country not be used in the statement.

The Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov also came to that conclusion:

The downing of a Russian warplane in Syria by Turkey appears to be a pre-planned provocation, the Russian Foreign Minister said. Ankara failed to communicate with Russia over the incident, he added.

We have serious doubts that this act was unintentional. It looks very much like a preplanned provocation,” Lavrov said, citing Turkey’s failure to maintain proper communication with Russia, the abundance of footage of the incident and other evidence.

Several NATO ambassadors will have had the same though when they admonished Ankara over the act:

"There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents," said one diplomat who declined to be named.

The attack on the Russian plane was preconceived on November 22 when a security summit was held with the Turkish government under Prime Minister Davutoğlu and the Turkish Armed Forces. Davutoğlu personally gave the order to shoot down Russian planes. This, Turkey says, was necessary to stop Russian bombing of "Turkmen" in north Syria's Latakia near the Turkish border.

Many of the "Syrian Turkmen" fighting against the Syrian people are from Central Asia and part of the terrorist groups of Jabhat al-Nusra, Ansar Al Sham, Jabhat Ansar Ad Din and Ahrar al Sham. Uighurs smuggled in from China and fighting under the "Turkistan Islamist Party" label even advertise their ‘little jihadists’ children training camps in the area. The few real Syrian Turkmen work, as even the BBC admits, together with al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Their leader and spokesman, one Alparslan Celik, is a Turkish citizen from Elazığ.

The Turkish claim of defending "Turkmen" in Syria is a sham. It is defending mostly foreign Islamist terrorists.

Whoever planned the ambush on the Russian jet miscalculated the reaction. NATO will not come to Turkey's help over this or the next such incident. NATO countries know that the Russian plane was hit within Syria. Russia will not be scared into drawing back. Instead it massively increased the bombing of targets in that area:

At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery shelling.

Russian jets also bombed insurgency supply trucks (video) in al-Qaeda controlled Azaz, north of Aleppo and just some two kilometers from the Turkish border. They also bombed the Bab al-Hawa border crossing to Turkey. That is a big FU to Erdogan.

The Russian missile cruiser Moskva with its extensive air defense systems is now covering the area. Russia will officially deploy two S-400 air defense systems to cover all of north-west Syria and southern Turkey. Russia also has lots of electronic wizardry it can (and will) apply. The preparation of additional airfields is ongoing. There will be no outward military revenge against Turkey unless it crosses into Syria. The "safe zone" within Syria Erdogan dreams of would have to be won by defeating Russian forces.

The 4.5 million Russian tourists who visited Turkey this year will not come again. Turkish business in Russia, mostly in the building industry and agricultural products, will shrink to nearly zero. That the scheming to take down a Russian air plane may have negative consequences for Turkey suddenly also dawned to Davutoğlu who now pretends that we wants to make nice again:

Turkey is not aiming to escalate tension with Russia, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu said Nov. 25, echoing President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan following the downing of a SU-24 Russian jet the previous day.

“Russia is our friend and neighbor. Our bilateral communication channels are open. But our security, as for every friendly country, should be based on the principle of respect under international law. It’s normal to protect our national airspace,” Davutoğlu said, addressing party members in parliament.

And it is normal for Russia to defend its ally Syria. Against all enemies. By all means.

But back to Turkey's motive. The way this is played one might believe that this was a indeed a lonely Turkish idea to defend its immediate interests in Syria - the "Turkmen" as well as the oil business Erdogan's son has with the Islamic State.

But there is also a bigger game going on and it is likely that Erdogan has a new contract and Obama's backing for this escalation. James Winnefeld, the deputy chief of General Staff of the U.S. military, was in Ankara when the incident happened. The cooperation between U.S. and Turkish military and especially the air forces is quite tight. It is hard to believe that there was no communication about what was prepared to happen.

After the Islamic State attack in France President Hollande attempted to create a global coalition against IS which would include Russia and Iran as well as the U.S. led anti-ISIS block. But such a coalition, which makes a lot of sense, would have to agree to leave Syria alone and to help Syrian ground forces to effectively fight the Islamic State. It does not make sense to destroy the Syrian state and to just hope that the outcome would be something better than an emboldened IS or AlQaeda ruling in Damascus. That outcome is certainly not in Europe's interest. But a global coalition is not in U.S. or Turkish interests. It would end their common plans and efforts to overthrow the Syrian government and to install a "Sunni" state in Syria and Iraq as a Turkish protectorate.

The Russian jet incident decreased the likelihood of such a coalition. Holland, visiting Washington yesterday, had to pull back with his plan and was again degraded to parrot Obama's "Assad must go" nonsense. Obama feels emboldened and now pushes to widen the conflict in Syria:

The Obama administration is using the current moment of extreme anger and anxiety in Europe to press allies for sharp increases in their contributions to the fight against the Islamic State. Suggestions include more strike aircraft, more intelligence-sharing, more training and equipment for local fighters, and deployment of their own special operations ­forces.
While new contributions would be added to anti-Islamic State campaigns across the board, the attention is clearly on Syria, marking a shift in what began as an “Iraq first” focus when Obama authorized airstrikes in the region last fall.
Obama, speaking beside Hollande on Tuesday, restated his insistence that Assad is part of the problem, not the solution, and that he must go.

The Obama administration is also preparing to install the Turkish dream of a "safe zone" between Aleppo and the Turkish border north of it.

Among several coalition priorities in Syria, the United States has begun a series of airstrikes in an area known as the “Mar’a line,” named for a town north of Aleppo in the northwest. There, a 60-mile stretch to the Euphrates River in the east is the only remaining part of the Syria-Turkey border under Islamic State control.

The administration had delayed beginning operations in the area because U.S. aircraft were needed in operations farther east, and it has been uncertain that local opposition forces­ would be able to hold the territory if it could be cleared with airstrikes.

The increased Russian air defense and the likely increase of its deployed planes will make those "safe zone" plans impossible.

But Obama, in my conclusion, still wants to drag NATO into Syria and wants to assemble enough forces "against ISIS" to be able to overwhelm the Syrian government and its Russian protectors. If that does not work he at least hopes to give Russia the Afghanistan like "quagmire" in Syria he and other U.S. officials promised. The again increasing tensions with U.S. proxy Ukraine only help in that regard.

But there is even more to that plan. Just by chance (not) the NYT op-ed pages launch a trial balloon today for the creation of a Sunni state in east Syria and west Iraq. But that (Islamic) State is already there and the "containment" strategy Obama practices towards it guarantees that it will fester.

Obama continues his immensely destructive policies in the Middle East with zero regard to the all the bad outcomes these are likely to have for the people there as well as for Europe. One again wonders if all these action follow from sheer incompetence or from some devilish, ingenious strategic planning.

Posted by b on November 25, 2015 at 15:26 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

101 was a reply to Laguerre @96

Siemens @100: Yes. The goal is still the same. Its just that the means to that goal has changed.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2015 23:43 utc | 101

Jackrabbit @93

Yes, the map is "messed up." The only way for the Outlaw US Empire to attain its policy goals is to physically invade Syria as a Daesh ally, for it will NOT gain permission from the Syrian government to do so under any circumstances. An outright invasion of Syria means an outright confrontation with Russia as it's pledged to defend/restore Syria's Territorial Integrity. That's a losing hand of cards, and the JCOS knows it.

Erdogan's painted Turkey into a corner as its support for Deash is all too visible; thus, NATO becomes just as visibly complicit. How will the French view such behavior? The rest of the world? Will Samantha Power resign now that it's proven she's a terrorist supporter, or wlll she just not show up for work anymore?

It's as if the Russians were just dealt another wild card to bolster their already winning hand. Guaranteed there will be no quarter in the "Turkmen" region of Syria. Within a week, the SAA will control those positions as the terrorists retreat from the hellish Russian bombardment. And the oil trade will end just as quickly.

I'm curious about what's next in the Ukraine theatre as recent events there are surely linked to those in Syria. "Russian aggression?" Okay, we'll show you what "Russian Aggression" is all about. And what would NATO do? I bet it would do nothing as Russia holds all the cards there, too.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2015 23:55 utc | 102

karlof1 @103:

The only way for the Outlaw US Empire to attain its policy goals is to physically invade Syria as a Daesh ally

Why couldn't they win via an election?

If they wanted to do so, it would require VOTES.

>> Returning refugees (mostly Sunni) could supply those votes.

>> To ensure that they vote against Assad, it would be best to host them in Syria. That means holding territory.

>> The UNSC allows nations with the capacity to attack ISIS and has language about humanitarian efforts as well. Voila!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2015 0:13 utc | 103

Jackrabbit @104

Still requires the okay of Syria, as all the usual UN norms are still in play.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2015 0:20 utc | 104

Now, since it is visible that Russia is going after the ISIS oil business since "l'argent est le nerf de la guerre",
it is bound to work on the other sources, namely the other financiers of terror.

SInce Jordan seems to be on Russia's side, it is probable that the western purveyors of DAESH will have a more difficult time than before to use the Jordanian border to supply ISIL.

Air drops by the US are certainly a thing of the past as it is not certain that despite the foolishness of the neocons they would dare make some "erroneous" deliveries using the USAF.

The house of Saud admitted last year that "they could guarantee the safety of the Russian held games as they (the saudis) controlled the chechens terrorists", so they could be egitimately targeted by whomever is combatting ISIS.

Same goes for Qatar.

As far as these two are concerned, it is a matter of when rather than if.

What form will it take? Putin and his staff must be mulling the adequate response. But it must be
assumed that the presence of a single Pecora missile launcher in the hands of ISIL/ISIS/AlQUAEDA/ALNUSRA etc on Syrian Territory will entail bad news for the Qataris. Certainly their cruise missiles would come from the Caspian Sea?

The only other route for resupply will be the Irak border. But once the territory is secured, the front would move towards Iraq where the Iranis might lend a hand finishing off whatever is left of ISiS.

There will be havoc in SA as well as in Qatar following the elimination of the present rulers.

Mecca needs a new guarantor, acceptable to all Moslems doing the Hadj.

The Bahraini monarchy should take all steps to fall in a more democratic line unless they want to go the
way of the Sauds.

Many changes may be foreseen in the ME.

One step will lead to the next as it is easier to stop the river at its source than at the estuary.

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 0:27 utc | 105

I think this is a good one and YouTube won't allow me to monetize it so there are no ads:
U.S. Claims Turkey Shooting Down Russian Plane was "Defense"

See how this RT reporter puts the U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson on the spot.

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Nov 26 2015 0:38 utc | 106


In solidarity with his former socialist Soviet buddies, (now oiligarchical tyrannical police-state Rushkies, using Syrian banks for money laundering, ...but who checks labels anymore,) US Presidential Executive Corporate Signatore-In-Chief, Socialist Party Candidate Senator Sanders, has just declared November 25th as National 'Freedom Poultry' Day, and directed Swanson's TV Dinners to apply a 'Freedom Poultry' sticker over the word 'Turkey' on every pack of their processed holiday frozen food substance.

Socialist historical revisionists have stolen a march on the 'Palestine Never Existed' Zionist Retro-Map Counterfeiters, by going back through Guttenberg's vast e-archives of historical texts, and electronically substituting 'Pilgrim's Progress' over reference to 'turkey' in the First Nations' interactions with the English rabbinical hegemonists, making the apocryphal story of their 'First Thanksgiving' sound more like an ad for pre-prepared bread stuffing (of 'Freedom Poultry' formerly known as टर्की).

The Zydeco Dancers Association have declared 'Let's Roulez' against the Turk Musslemen, by relabeling their unique version of 'Freedom Poultry' as 'Deep-Fried Dinde', and asked all Real Americans to use the word Dinde, as a sharp stick in the eye to that Kenyan and his CIA/State I$I$ enablers.

Happy BIS Day everyone!

Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 26 2015 0:49 utc | 107

Or, following the possible course of actions by Syria/Russia, the financiers of ISil/Daesh/al Nusra /Alquaeda/ Chechens might be taken to courts, International or national for damages to Syrians and all concerned.

Turkey might by taken to court for the unreasonable diversion of water streams serving downstream communities -Syria and Iraq- where their unilateral action have reduced available water in these countries
by more than 70% turning lush field into deserts and successful farmers into beggars.

Spain seemed to be agreable to this type of judments. Other countries should accept such

Who knows what the Russians will chose to do?

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 0:53 utc | 108

John Helmer suggests a few history lessons for Russians:

Posted by: crone | Nov 26 2015 0:56 utc | 109


Far more likely nobody the spooks polled at white-elite Columbia would admit they knew some disadvantaged black kid, since CIA/State are a Deep State arm of the All War All the Time World Wehrmacht, one Obama has no power over, but is obliged as a Democrat to enable, in order to please the ZioMedia coverage of known CIA/State operative Clinton.

Trump-Cruz will solve all the CIA/State war metastasis problems, but Clinton-Warner will cover the alternate war metastasis quite nicely, leaving USA a melting pot of hot shyte with a $T global war machine, and that eventuality should provide daily war pron posts for MoA.


Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 26 2015 1:13 utc | 110

CarlD@109 Syria's chamber of industry have filed a case at the European court against Turkey, complaining that they have looted 1000 factories in Aleppo and transferred them to Turkey.
“Some 1,000 factories in the city of Aleppo have been plundered, and their stolen goods transferred to Turkey with the full knowledge and facilitation of the Turkish government,” the Syrian foreign ministry then said in letters sent to the UN.

Shehabi said the legal complaint is aimed at compelling Ankara to “change its policy towards Syria” and to bring back the stolen goods.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 26 2015 1:19 utc | 111

@84 penelope.. that goes without saying.. on message boards posters offer their viewpoints..

@86 lysias.. the pre planned media blitz which they were ready to roll out immediately after the event, including maps and etc signifies it was a totally premeditated act on turkeys part..

@89 Sun Tzu.. b provided that video in his post up above, but i am quite sure your description of what has happened since in the area is quite accurate and the video is a good starting place for anyone interested..

@ 98 zico.. bang on.. thanks..

@107 tom murphy.. i saw that yesterday on this posters youtube site.. it is a good one, along with the many others they post, including one more recent then the one you have shared.

@109 carld.. interesting speculation and @112 harry law follow up.. turkey has been diverting the water that flows into iraq and syria for some time now.. i don't know the legality of all that, but i believe it's had a dramatic impact on iraq and syria.. i was unaware of what harry law mentions..

@110 crone.. thanks for the link to helmers latest.. i will check it out..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 1:36 utc | 112

@112 harry law

Thanks for the link and information. What a Hoot!

Given the war crimes that the US and its enablers continue to commit, it will be interesting to see what is left of International Rule-of-Law when all this is over.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2015 1:39 utc | 113

Hey Willy2 can you stop spamming and posting juan cole like that CIA hack has a shred of credibility? The man is a propaganda tool and false opposition to US militarism and empire.

Posted by: don | Nov 26 2015 1:40 utc | 114

@115 don

Please back up your comment about Juan Cole. I don't agree with all he says but your slander seems a bit over the top.

As I recall, Juan Cole and I were both listened to in 2004 by the CIA. Does that make me a CIA hack?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2015 1:57 utc | 115


[...] IMO, as a whole, these events have furthered the anti-Assad agenda. Together, these events have moved us toward a anti-Assad Coalition-led intervention to return refugees (plus maybe other Islamic immigrants that can be incentivized to leave Europe). In addition to securing 'Sunni' territory from the 4+1 Coalition, the West would be able to control who is admitted to Syria and influence how they vote.

Good points, but where are they going to put the returning refugees? In other words, who and how is going to bell the cat? I think you're forgetting a couple of variables that entered the equation recently. One, Russian strategic bombers, two, the S-400s. Those two suffice to tilt the strategic balance toward Russia, without adding the political/diplomatic/moral fallout from Turkey shooting the Russian plane.

Your points are well made, but at the end you failed to elaborate on how the Coalition of the Bastards is going to achieve their ends. I don't believe they can force Syria anymore, take territory, create a "safe-zone," a "no-fly zone" or put "boots-on-the-ground." As I pointed out to you before, those aims are concomitant to one another.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 26 2015 1:57 utc | 116

Juan Cole is a disgrace; he stumped for the ousting of Gaddafi. Therefore I regard any info from him on a 'from-wastebin' basis. That's not to say that he won't provide important info.

Posted by: bbbb | Nov 26 2015 2:01 utc | 117

@112 So basically Syrians have had factories, oil, water(?) and their own body parts looted by Turkey.

Posted by: bbbb | Nov 26 2015 2:06 utc | 118

@110 crone.. thanks again for helmers article.. it is succinct and on target.. definitely worth the read.

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 3:07 utc | 119


West Pakis under Taliban/AQ purge (before CIA/State rout of the Jabha-yi Muttahid-i Islāmi-yi Millī barā-yi Nijāt-i Afghānistān resistance in 2001), cut down 10,000s of Afghan fruit trees and grape roots, looting vast quantities of the best fruit root stock on earth to back over the Paki border into the NWFPs. BushCo/Musharraf shelled those pristine valleys into rubble, leaving the goats to eat the looted root stocks.

Meanwhile all the fabled Afghan woven hair rugs and tapestrys were looted for a few pesetas, leaving WChinese/Tajik replicas in the souks, as the Louvre looted the fabled Bactrian gold antiquities.

Then Cheney imposed Afghan Oil and Minerals Act, written *in English* in November, 2001, granting new Executive Signatore-In-Chief Karzai only enough resource royalties to fund a Republican Guard to keep down the disinherited Afghan population.

That's why Afghans can't have nice things.

Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 26 2015 3:11 utc | 120

Michael Hudson: What French President Hollande Would Have Liked To Have Said

“I apologize to President Obama for not realizing that ISIS’s attacks on France were expressions by the ‘legitimate moderate opposition’.” I appreciate President Obama making it clear that ISIS is America’s Foreign Legion just conducing moderate opposition in their own moderate manner.”

Posted by: fairleft | Nov 26 2015 3:18 utc | 121

The Eight Reasons Why the NWO hates Syria
by a pretty young thing
I can't believe this was on RT.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 26 2015 4:10 utc | 122

I've been thinking. Maybe too much.
I've long been wondering if the US "helping" KSA w its war against Yemen wasn't for the result that everyone's been predicting: the breakup of KSA.

Similarly, I can't help but wonder if this seeming attack on Russia isn't actually an attack on Turkey. It's always been on the oligarch's list of countries to break up. I mean, does ANYONE want to see a stronger Turkey? I doubt it. Turkey's really not all that stable: There's problems w the Alevi's --sort of like alawites, shiite anyway, which make up 20% of population. Active problems w Kurds-- 20% to 25% or maybe even higher. Corruption. Older people, especially probably don't like the abandonment of secular for the MB stuff. Military was disempowered by Erdogan himself, then purged, not so long ago.

Oh, well, just thinking. It just seems to me that we are missing something in all our indignation-- something essential-- maybe it's this, that Turkey's the target.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 26 2015 4:22 utc | 123

Syria is the target... then Iran... then Russia... then China.

Posted by: crone | Nov 26 2015 4:27 utc | 124

via sic semper tyrannis

MOSCOW, November 25. /TASS/. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has described as correct the offer of French President Francois Hollande to take steps to close the Syrian-Turkish border. He said as much while talking to reporters on Wednesday.

"Going back to the news conference of Presidents of France and the United States Francois Hollande and Barack Obama in Washington, I noticed that the French president suggested taking steps to close the Turkish-Syrian border to stop both the flow of militants and terrorist financing," the Russian minister said. "It is significant that President Obama did not respond to this in any way, but I think it’s the right suggestion."

"I hope that President Hollande will brief us on the issue tomorrow (during the meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin)," the Russian foreign minister said. "We would be ready to seriously consider the steps necessary for this."

"Many say that, by closing this border, we will effectively curb the terrorist threat in Syria," Lavrov added. (TASS News Agency)


This guy Lavrov, like his boss, is a pretty cool character. He made an astute observation concerning yesterday’s Hollande-Obama news conference. I think the Russians are going to push hard for a joint declaration calling for the closing of the Turkish-Syrian border when Hollande sees Putin tomorrow. At that point, it is my opinion that both Obama and Erdogan will not know whether to sh*t or go blind.

The R+6 are already pushing to accomplish this border closing with vigorous and violent pushes further north towards the border. Convoys of any kind are being struck if they move to or from the border areas. The SAA seized control of the Raqqa-Aleppo road just east of Kuweires Airbase and cut an IS supply route.

R+6 forces are operating near the border crossings according to a description of the rescue of the SU-24 navigator. An 18 man Syrian commando team linked up with a 6 man Hezbollah already sitting near a border crossing point to effect the rescue. That Hezbollah team was performing a SICTA (strategic intelligence collection and target acquisition) mission. Such teams are probably all along that border right up to Jarabulus.

Syrian Kurds are ready to start cooperating with Russia. Salih Muslim Muhammad, the leader of the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD), said, “Until now we haven’t had the opportunity to establish cooperation with Russia. But we would be happy if such opportunity appears. Russia hasn’t yet approached our region as it is active in the west. I think in the future we’ll be able to establish a dialogue on military cooperation with the Russian side.” It’s only a matter of time.

Closing the border and neutering Erdogan’s ability to support IS and the unicorns is the best revenge for the deliberate downing of the SU-24 and the execution of Lt Col Oleg Peshkov. It is also the most effective COA to eventually destroy IS.


Posted by: crone | Nov 26 2015 4:32 utc | 125

@125 crone

All it takes is for countries to stop buying US dollars, repudiate the larcenous debt and buy the Yuan instead. It comes down to faith in the US and that is fading because the US has gone from WWII savior to the rapacious war criminal empire of the global plutocrats that own private finance. China is close to being able to stand up and say they are ready to lead a better way with financial services and international financing.

I see this more possible now than anytime in the past 45 years I have been watching.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2015 4:40 utc | 126

@123 penelope..syrian girl has been around for quite some time.. nice to see her being picked up to a wider audience though.. her she is from 3 years ago, and in fine form i might add..

!25 crone.. ditto your viewpoint.. penelope - ksa and turkey are collateral damage that will look different after all this..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 4:43 utc | 127

@129 Anunnaki

Thanks for the link. I am ok w/ folks questioning my judgment as I do others here that keep blaming folks but those global plutocrats at the top of the heap.

I guess I am not as judgmental about who the enemies of my enemies are anymore. I may not be radical enough either for some folks here. As much as I push for the ending of private finance which got Kennedy and probably Lincoln killed, I don't have a death wish. And in trying how to figure out how to get anywhere from here, folks like Juan Cole are going to be easier to deal with than the Dick Cheney type.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2015 7:00 utc | 129

Posted by: Anunnaki | Nov 26, 2015 12:21:51 AM | 129

Spot on! Xymphora deleted Juan 'Langley' Cole from his Blogroll years ago... for crimes against consistency.
Cannon of Cannonfire too...

Syria Comment is just hanging on by the skin of his teeth, afaIct - possibly bcs, in the past at least, he did have the decency to publish comments from dissenters to his pov. I disagreed with him several times a couple of years ago and he published every comment.
Cole & Cannon, not so much and highly selective.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 26 2015 7:22 utc | 130

When I google James Winnefeld, I see that he retired from his position as Vice Chairman a few months ago. That of course does not mean he isn't a a 'consigliere' for the deep state, or serving it in an unofficial capacity.

Posted by: Terje | Nov 26 2015 7:28 utc | 131

As a small contribution to the ongoing information war, I suggest that we all agree to talk of the "Erdogan REGIME" in future, rather than of "Turkey" or the "Turkish government" doing this or that.

Posted by: Markus M. | Nov 26 2015 7:57 utc | 132

Now France is accusing Russia of bombing the Kurds!!! Lovely!

L’objectif de la visite de François Hollande à Vladimir Poutine jeudi 26 novembre est de parvenir à mieux coordonner l’effort militaire de la France avec celui de la Russie.

Paris a fixé trois conditions politiques à Moscou, rappelle Nathalie Guibert, journaliste au Monde, qui suit les affaires de défense :

"On charge M. Poutine de convaincre Bachar Al-Assad d’arrêter de bombarder sa population ; l’armée russe doit cesser de frapper les forces d’opposition, notamment kurdes, aidées par la France et les Etats-Unis ; enfin Moscou doit approuver une négociation sur le départ de Bachar à l’issue d’une période de transition politique."

A ce stade, "ces conditions ne sont pas réunies", rappelle Nathalie Guibert, "mais la discussion militaire est ouverte".

Deux éléments convainquent Paris d’aller plus loin : des frappes russes ont été lancées sur des zones tenues par l'organisation Etat islamique (EI), actions qualifiées d’"inflexion" car elles représenteraient à présent 50 % de l’action russe.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 8:00 utc | 133

Hey b, please culture this dude

@133 Siemens doesn't play well with others

I am not a CIA turd but occasionally I am full of shit.....grin And I was young once and full of myself.

I encourage you to go to my web site and heal yourself as I have had to do so you can become more effective.


Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2015 8:03 utc | 134

@Siemens, funny, I thought that name calling as means of disrupting forum threads was 101 in CIA playbook..

If you're not capable of civilized debate, please go back to ZeroHedge. Thanks!

Posted by: citizen X | Nov 26 2015 8:34 utc | 135

@jfl jfl: i could give a hoot about your thoughts.
merkel will get the nobel for flooding germany with mena's

Posted by: lotu | Nov 26 2015 8:47 utc | 136

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26, 2015 3:00:34 AM | 135

I think they are saying "Kurdish" because they are the acceptable ones to public opinion. But the US has tried to form an "official" Arab-Kurd alliance that was supposed to enter Raqqa. Barzani has offered his Peshmerga to enter Raqqa - presumbably to make Turkey feel safe the PKK will not be involved. If they keep quibbling it will be the SAA that will enter Raqqa.

Rereading the July agreement of the US/British use of Incirlik air base - before Russian intervention, Obama seems to have promised Turkey the no fly zone including a Kurd-free zone.

Though serious corrupt business is done via Kurdistan involving Turkish businessmen and British/US oil companies. And YPG/PKK are fighting an ISIS/Turkey Iraqi Kurdish politicians are cooperating with.

Neither the religious nor the national models work in people's interests.

But how to explain the stupidity of the downing of the airliner? I guess different Washington and NATO factions work across purpose. Since the "red line chemical attack" the Neo-Cons don't seem to be able to pull off their schemes completely.

Also, something might have gone wrong. Like sparking a fight that would have justified to scramble British airforce from Incirlic for support.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2015 9:24 utc | 137

The US State Department spokesman Mark Toner is human scum. "A Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, hit out at the US state department official Mark Toner, who said the Turkmen fighters who shot the Russian airman as he parachuted to the ground could have been acting in self defence. “Remember these words, remember them forever. I will never forget them, I promise,” Zakharova wrote on Facebook".

Posted by: harry law | Nov 26 2015 9:31 utc | 138

The airliner seems indeed to be IS, since they boast about it in their November Dabiq issue
There is no doubt the security at Sharm al Sheikh was a mess, and same for Cairo. The transit between an inward and an outbound flight of Egyptair is just an amazing mess. Paying a small fee to a guy in order to cross the x-rayed controls was recently again very possible (i was made such an offer at Cairo aiport and tried to convince myself with optimism that it was a test).
Having said that does not mean Sinai Beduins support Daesh. Yesterday in the elections South Sinai had the highest number of voters when the rest of the country laugh of the generals. Desert people know they will starve if there is no tourism.
Russia pointed to Qatar/KSA. This is likely. Rich Gulf people own a lot of businesses and resorts in Sharm al Sheikh.

A couple of good reads

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 10:04 utc | 139

Does IS and its mentors want to provoke a conflagration? They may feel stronger now that they have a big chunk of Yemen (all the Eastern side, along KSA and Oman border, up to the sea, i.e. Hadramawt)

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 10:09 utc | 140

I was both galled and amused to see the State Department defend the so-called rebels' machine-gunning of the Russian pilot in his parachute. A violation of the Geneva Conventions - but I doubt State even knows that. If it does, it goes without saying that it doesn't care.

My hot take on Foggy Bottom: it's become the dysfunctional little Warhol Factory of Nuland and her well-dressed flunkies, flacks and climbers, churning out big lies like prints. Their evil is perfunctory and reeks of pettiness. They're amateurs, and they only get away with it because the press matches them in incompetence. Obama seems to have little role at State, having largely checked out, and Kerry has the outlook of a hypocrite who lacks the imagination to know he is one (at least there's a vitality and multiplicity, an actual political dimension, to Putin's deceptions and stratagems - a chessmaster up against checkers players).

Posted by: Huffman Aviation | Nov 26 2015 10:18 utc | 141

Posted by: Huffman Aviation | Nov 26, 2015 5:18:56 AM | 145

He was defending a "non state actor". "Turkmen" are not supposed to shoot at anything at all. But it all hinges on the argument if the Syrian government is legal or not. It has a legal reason Obama (and Hollande) keep repeating that Assad has lost all legitimacy. To climb down that tree will be difficult and will have all kinds of repercussions.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2015 10:57 utc | 142

Huffman Aviation @145: He didn't defend it but he certainly didn't condemn it. He hid behind a 'we don't know what happened yet' lie. But actually, we do know that the rebels shot down the pilot; we have the Turkoman officials direct statements that they machine gunned them.

Posted by: fairleft | Nov 26 2015 11:11 utc | 143

Posted by: fairleft | Nov 26, 2015 6:11:01 AM | 147

That "Turkmen official" being an MHP guy from Turkey - with a name and an adress. This makes it more awkward. And makes you wonder what they were thinking.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2015 11:28 utc | 144

more videos

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 11:47 utc | 145

Cameron seems to think he is getting anywhere

Cameron said the area of disagreement between Western countries and the Russians is “narrowing.”

He said the difference is that Russia is still attacking moderate forces in Syria that the West believes could be part of a future Syrian government.

The PM said discussions with Russia are continuing. He thinks the attack on a Russian Metrojet flight last month will hammer home the message that the real enemy is Islamic State.

Frankly, it sounds like a Mafia threat.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2015 11:59 utc | 146

We learn via RT that it has been raining cats and dogs in Qatar and parts of Saudi Arabia!

Almost the total yearly rainfall in less than a few days.

The Russians are rumored to have their equivalent of the HAARP. Could this caprice of nature be their work?

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 12:25 utc | 147

Fairleft @147. "He didn't defend it but he certainly didn't condemn it" But he did try and justify it, a grave war crime, against the Geneva Conventions, I know its quaint to quote the Geneva Conventions but what Toner said was morally one of the most repugnant things I have heard in a long time, If I had been at that press conference, I would have had to be held back.
Fairleft@150."The PM said discussions with Russia are continuing. He thinks the attack on a Russian Metrojet flight last month will hammer home the message that the real enemy is Islamic State". Is Cameron aware his "moderate" Terrorists the Free Syrian army [who happen to be as rare as unicorns] had in its ranks a member who ate the heart/liver of a Syrian soldier and that its former leader General Idriss told the press that they cooperate with other extremist groups while others sell arms supplied by the US, to the highest bidder?

Posted by: harry law | Nov 26 2015 12:33 utc | 148

must read (in French) by someone who really knows the Northern African 2nd generation kids in France

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 12:36 utc | 149


Very good contributions, crone.

I am looking forward to the Putin/Hollande meeting, in which Hollande is just an errand boy. The Russians will be reading Hollande's words between the lines to decipher Obama's message, and will use Hollande to respond and send a message back on the new conditions after the Turkey ambush.

I certainly hope that sweeping the sewer that the Turkey/Syrian border has become, a logical consequence to the shooting of the Russian jet, will be one of the actions the Russians will take in their strategic defense of Syria.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 26 2015 13:16 utc | 150


Very good contributions, crone.

I am looking forward to the Putin/Hollande meeting, in which Hollande is just an errand boy. The Russians will be reading Hollande's words between the lines to decipher Obama's message, and will use Hollande to respond and send a message back on the new conditions after the Turkey ambush.

I certainly hope that sweeping the sewer that the Turkey/Syrian border has become, a logical consequence to the shooting of the Russian jet, will be one of the actions the Russians will take in their strategic defense of Syria.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 26 2015 13:17 utc | 151

I'm envisioning the meeting where the US gives overt or tacit approval for turkey to down a Russian jet, and I'm having a hard time envisioning non sociopaths being present.

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 26 2015 13:29 utc | 152

@b, Posters

There is a whole new group of trolls who are piggybacking on legit posters comments (see Siemens@133), or entering the dynamic between legit posters (see former thread attacks on rufus magister), and for now their nicks are, Siemens, HolyC, Seder, MorningStar, Sukhoi. Do not interact with them, do not answer their posts, they are here to break the thread and make provoking comments, e.g. the insults on Juan Cole, demeaning for MoA, since we can debunk his positions rationally. Beware of them.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 26 2015 13:45 utc | 153

must be the price of Twitter-fame!?

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2015 13:59 utc | 154

I am coming back to the downing of the Russian Bomber.

Was it an experiment?

An experiment to see how to deal with the Russian planes that carry an electronic
jamming device for radars and other electronic warfare aids? Re: the USS Donald Cook
Black Sea misadventure.

Arguments in favor of this theory point to the fact that the F16 radars were not on at this time.
If they were in action, Russians pilots would have known they were being "painted" by
possibly hostile plane/s and would have taken evasive manoeuvres.

Second, the type of missile fired, a heat seeking rocket that penetrated directly
into the aircraft's engine.

This type of weapon doesn't need radar guidance but can be easily thwarted once the pilots
know they are under attack by emission of flares and reduction of engine power.

It is understandable that at this point, all those that have to face the Russian Air Force will want
to develop a tactic that restores their ability to survive or even to claim victory.

So, optronics will soon "grace" most fighter aircraft as well as other passive detection systems.
Planes with pilot and co pilot will have a better chance at watching all around. They will want to
watch their tails with rear facing cameras etc.

But who knows, maybe Erdogan was just trying to save his son's business.

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 14:19 utc | 155

But who knows, maybe Erdogan was just trying to save his son's business.
Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26, 2015 9:19:09 AM | 159

Or maybe trying to save his son full stop.

RT go all the way now making him an accomplice of terrorism - indicating they might take the PKK side - if you follow their twitter link.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2015 14:26 utc | 156

Russia’ Sputnik (Persian) News site, is reporting that General Solaimani was directing the ground Syrian Hezbollah forces in charge of rescuing the downed Russian pilot in north Latakia.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 26 2015 14:29 utc | 157

karlof1 @103: The only way for the Outlaw US Empire to attain its policy goals is to physically invade Syria as a Daesh ally. Jack Rabbit responds:
Why couldn't they win via an election?

There has already been talk about letting Syrians world-wide vote in the ‘upcoming’ election, in UN circles. (No link sorry though i did see a brief snippet somewhere.) I.e. all the expats, refugees, migrants, and so on. Others have responded, this is unrealistic on a practical level (e.g. all the false passports..); that the conditions for such an election can’t be achieved, and it would be against international law (what that is when its at home idk, but the point is obvious); that such an election would not be considered legitimate by many Syrians, might very well be ‘rigged’, would be immediately contested, and would inflame, or re-ignite, the conflict. Note, nobody is calling for world-wide elections re. Lybia (with its two Gvmts.)

Imho it is unlikely the USA’s pursuit of their aims through an ‘election’ - democratic fig-leaf for the installation of a puppet Gvmt. - will ever be realised.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 26 2015 14:52 utc | 158

Donald Cook incident:

There are many more about the same incident.

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 15:00 utc | 159

The coordination that took place after the downing of the Su-24 between SAA, Hezbollah and three Russian Mi-8 choppers to recover the pilots is admirable. SAA fired MLRS against Turkmen in the Jabal al Turkmen for eight continuous hours to keep them at bay. Mean while Russian marines and Hezbollah commando teams searched the hostile ground guided by the co-pilot's life beacon.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 15:31 utc | 160


Does KHIBINY mean anything to you?

If not, then find out.

F16 did not use their radar against the downed SU24.

They simply used VFR , acquired the unsuspecting target from behind and let a heat seeking missile out.

Ambush pure and simple.

It will be much more difficult to achieve the same next time.

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 16:02 utc | 161

Crocodile Butt Screaming: And The Woods And The Hood
Alligator Butt Screaming: And The Woods And The Hood
Shandi Screams: No
Shandi Screams: Noo
Shandi Screams: Nooo
Shandi Screams: Noooo
Shandi Screams: Nooooo
Shandi Screams: Noooooo
Shandi Screams: Nooooooo
Shandi Screams: Noooooooo
Shandi Screams: Nooooooooo
Shandi Screams: Noooooooooo
Mary Jane Watson: (Screaming)
Mary Jane: (Screaming)

Posted by: mime | Nov 26 2015 16:03 utc | 162

Kate Hudson: (Kate Screams)
Kate Hudson: Kate Screams
Katie Couric: (Katie Screaming)
Katie Couric: Katie Screaming
Kate Hudson: (Kate Screaming)
Kate Hudson: Kate Screaming
Katie Couric: (Katie Screams)
Katie Couric: Katie Screams
Shandi Screams: No
Shandi Screams: Nooooooooooooooo
Mary Jane Watson: (Screaming)
Mary Jane: (Screaming)

Posted by: mime screaming | Nov 26 2015 16:07 utc | 163


Some people believe their side is the only one capable of innovation or technical prowess. To them, the others cannot be anything but primitive idiots.

Yet they can't even make a decent rocket, even after spending a trillion trying to develop one.

They are still "exceptional".

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 16:11 utc | 164

Turkish arms?-aid bombed in Syria

Posted by: Seder | Nov 26 2015 16:15 utc | 165

That turk devil has defeated his cause of "securing a safe zone" (for terrorists) along the turk border. Say goodbye to that project, Erdogan, Obama, McCain, Kerry.

Posted by: psakiwacky | Nov 26 2015 16:18 utc | 166

Amazing how the improprieties that Sibel Edmond's made claims about in her short stint at the FBI in 2001 are huge news today

Posted by: bbbb | Nov 26 2015 16:24 utc | 167

CarlD | Nov 26, 2015 11:02:33 AM | 169

It's nice to uncover the CIA trolls by getting them upset but after they have shown their true colors STOP replying to them, it just pours more noise into the thread.
Or may be you are their partner in trolling, which one of you get the highest stipend?
(think about it ... :-D )

Posted by: acrimonious | Nov 26 2015 16:34 utc | 168

A couple of points:

1.) The MSM is never incompetent. It is complicit. Complicit in propagating CIA narratives for all the False Flag events, general warmongering, general government propaganda dissemination for any topic provided for public consumption. The conspicuous absence of real information is pathetic (and laughable if it weren't so dangerous to life and limb).

The Fairness Doctrine (FWIWW) was jettisoned years ago. Then the Congress Whores (and the FCC) were paid to allow media consolidation. If GE makes bombs, MIC hardware AND owns a big chunk of Media, that should tell you enough. There is no incompetence. The "appearance of incompetence" is a parlor trick.

2.) After Iraq was destroyed (remember that genocide requires the destruction of ppl their culture and history) Lindsey Graham playfully boasted about buying a beautiful Persian Rug for five dollars at a flea market outside "The Green Zone". He was accompanied by his pals Joe Lieberman and John McCain - The Three Amigos.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 26 2015 16:36 utc | 169

@178 Aw... just when foff finds a live one you give the game away.

Posted by: dh | Nov 26 2015 16:42 utc | 170


The insinuation was not needed. But certainly acrimonious.

Maybe your job is to get the bona fide posters angry?

Posted by: CarlD | Nov 26 2015 16:43 utc | 171

This might not be a popular post but you have to call a spade a spade. It is certain that the empire looked for a chink in the armour and found it in: Georgia, Ukraine, Egypt (Sharm el Sheik) and Syria (Jabal al Turkmen). Though from the vantage point of view of 20/20 the two last ones are unforgivable blows. Heads should roll. At Sharm el Sheik, Russian private security could have provided additional oversight for aircraft, passengers and luggage. In Northern Syria, Russia had advanced warning from at least a week ago when rebuked by Turkey's foreign ministry. They could have provided Su-30 escorts to Su-24 bomber raid sorties so close to Turkish border. Of course this was pre-planned and authorized by the hegemon. Of course! The hegemon wants to drive a wedge between Western Europe (France & Germany) and Russia.

Previously Ankara had warned Moscow in connection with the situation of Turkmens near the Turkish-Syrian border...Earlier, Turkey warned Russia of its right to take all necessary remedial actions in the case that the operation against the Syrian Turkmens will jeopardize the border with Turkey.

An alarm was reported on 19 November to the Russian Ambassador in Ankara, Andrey Karlov, who was summoned to the Turkish foreign Ministry, said on Tuesday the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet.


It wasn't a surprise that the Erdogan regime is working overtime with the empire to drive a wedge between Western Europe and Russia

Israel Shamir reflects on how Russia should respond to provocation with su-24 shot down in the skies over Syria.

A month ago we reported that President Erdogan is going to shoot down Russian planes in Syria, to put relations between Russia and Turkey to the brink of war. With such disturbing reports out of the Turkish analogue of Wikileaks, known by the name fuat avni (his name on Twitter). Our usually reliable sources in Turkey were extremely concerned. They believed, and as we have seen, not unreasonably, that saved is willing to plunge his country into a state of war hysteria, in particular (but not only) in knocking down Russian planes in the skies of Syria under the pretext that they violated the airspace of Turkey.


So, it seems that Russia is not taking the initiative but reacting to mischief. I extend my condolences for the loss of life in both cases. Yet, Russia must take preventive action to protect the soft targets in its under belly.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 16:45 utc | 172

@Posted by: Penelope 123, wow Penelope, what a great article, worth repeating. Hope everyone reads it.

The Eight Reasons Why the NWO hates Syria

by a pretty young thing
I can't believe this was on RT.

Also, agree with psychohistorian about the true reason Kennedy and Lincoln were assassinated.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 26 2015 16:48 utc | 173

Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

More importantly, Lavrov pointed to Turkey’s role in the propping up the terror network through the oil trade. Per the Russian statement:

"The Russian Minister reminded his counterpart about Turkey’s involvement in the ISIS’ illegal trade in oil, which is transported via the area where the Russian plane was shot down, and about the terrorist infrastructure, arms and munitions depots and control centers that are also located there."

Others reaffirmed Lavrov's stance, such as retired French General Dominique Trinquand, who said that "Turkey is either not fighting ISIL at all or very little, and does not interfere with different types of smuggling that takes place on its border, be it oil, phosphate, cotton or people," he said.

The reason we find this line of questioning fascinating is that just last week in the aftermath of the French terror attack but long before the Turkish downing of the Russian jet, we wrote about "The Most Important Question About ISIS That Nobody Is Asking" in which we asked who is the one "breaching every known law of funding terrorism when buying ISIS crude, almost certainly with the tacit approval by various "western alliance" governments, and why is it that these governments have allowed said middleman to continue funding ISIS for as long as it has?"

Precisely one week later, in even more tragic circumstances, suddenly everyone is asking this question.


Posted by: shadyl | Nov 26 2015 16:54 utc | 174

Such operations are not carried out randomly. Without the permission of Erdogan it could not plan — the former head of the Israeli secret service (VIDEO)

MACHINETRANSLATION The former head of the Israeli secret services "Nativ" Yaakov Kedmi in the program "Actually" the News Agency Front.

Websi program — Sergey Veselovsky.

"The situation with the downed Russian su-24 was carried out the planned ambush of a Turkish aircraft that knew what this plane dozens of times they saw this aircraft in the area. They knew that the aircraft returns to its base after the task. Knowing the armament, and not his ability to fight in the air, Turkish planes attacked from behind and knocked down. Such operations are not carried out randomly. And without the permission of saved, this operation could not be planned", — said Yakov Kedmi.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 16:54 utc | 175

Perhaps those who spread the "Incompetent Media" meme are unaware of this, but it is important to know:

In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 26 2015 17:28 utc | 176

@8 Con Coughlin gets paid alright - wether it is direct from MI6 or he just peddles their propaganda for fun, it's hard to say:

Nearly 25 years later, readers of the Sunday Telegraph were regaled with a dramatic story about the son of Col Gadafy of Libya and his alleged connection to a currency counterfeiting plan. The story was written by Con Coughlin, the paper's then chief foreign correspondent, and it was falsely attributed to a “British banking official”. In fact, it had been given to him by officers of MI6, who, it transpired, had been supplying Coughlin with material for years.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 17:29 utc | 177

Hahah, yeah, there's a CIA hack here. Named after a Dutch electronics company, among his other five screen names in two threads. Blows the worst smelling CIA talking points out his ass and then wildly accuses others of having gas. What a joke. For years he comes here to support ever CIA gang you can think of, then calls others "CIA Hacks"? Luckily we're so used to your emotional illness by now, no one takes you seriously. We just hold our noses until the strong breeze blows you out of the area...

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 17:49 utc | 178

"those horrible trolls that can demonstrate some critical thinking ability"

Hahaha, this guy. Never have I seen someone so impressed with his own brain. "Crtical thinking" = "retype what I read on CNN but with more rape references". Pretty below average for a human, but as uncreative monkey who can type, he is somewhat remarkable. Though I have to say, the state of the "master race" is really slipping these days if this sub-ape is their representative.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 17:54 utc | 179

@194 foff/siemens. boring the shit out of us as always..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 18:04 utc | 180

I think most see this attack as a ambush.

If true, what was the point? What did Erdogan hope to accomplish? The possibilities seem to be:

1) revenge, black eye for Putin;

2) boost the flagging morale of anti-Assad fighters;

3) a NATO intervention on behalf of Turkmen;

4) ratchet tensions to create pretext for closing of straits;

5) put an end to any cooperation with 4+1 Coalition ==> Western anti-ISIS Coalition acts independently;

6) ratchet tensions to hasten ISSG political agreement that establishes a ceasefire and timetable for elections;

7) one or more of the above;

8) something else.

To me, the least likely is that it is a gambit for NATO intervention (NATO is not going to risk nuclear war over Syria), and the next least likely is Erdogan's recklessly lashing out at Putin with an emotional/punative response without approval from his Coalition partners.

An important aspect, I think, is the need for Western decision-makers to know that the political process is viable or not. If NOT, then they would likely provide MANPADs and other arms to the rebels/ISIS.

Right now we are in a grey area where there is a agreement on a political process but no implementation. The longer that is true, the more uncomfortable the anti-Assad Coalition is. The attack may well reflect this. The US doesn't want to supply dangerous weapons like MANPADs to extremists but doesn't want to see the 4+1 Coalition romping over their mercenary army either.

So for me, the answer is: all of the above except 3.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2015 18:04 utc | 181

@199 Ah whatever, we all know where your screen name comes from - you just misspelled the name of your favorite beverage.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 18:18 utc | 182

@Jackrabbit - I think all of your points are valid, but #2 is interesting. Turkey has to show its foot soldiers something, right? I mean, sending weapons is one thing but he needed to do something public - something their al Qaeda fighters on the ground can loudly point to - and this was probably it. Turkey has to play the big dog here, this is their war in essence. They have to show how far they are willing to go - to NATO, to their al Qaeda foot soldiers, and to the Russians as well.

Closing the straights would be a huge event and I can't imagine that it wouldn't lead to the Russians ignoring it, then the Turks having to choose to escalate with forced stoppage of Russian vessels, and this would surely lead to a huge blow up, if not an out-right war. I'm not sure if NATO can turn down and article 5 request, but surely any move like closing the Bosporous would have to get NATO approval seeing as how it would surely take military action to achieve. Same with NATO intervention over the Turkmen. This can't be achieved - especially as these groups are under the al Qaeda umbrella.

Putting an end to any question of collaboration with the 4+1 is interesting probability, and points back to #2. A way to prove to their fighters on the ground (the al Qaeda monsters) that they won't do so, and are willing at act aggressively and not come to terms with the Russian intervention. After all, the "rebels" on the ground must always be waiting for the other shoe to drop - as soon as their Turkish, Saudi backers give up on them, they are finished. So they must always be looking for signs of this - and if they sense them, then they split. Or turn on their former backers. This is Turkey saying: "Don't worry, we see the Russians as enemies, there is no chance of accommodation."

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 18:31 utc | 183


That's you Projecting again, eh Gimp?

tsk tsk.

Posted by: Morningstar | Nov 26 2015 18:32 utc | 184

guest77 @201

IMO belligerence by 'crazy, unpredictable Erdogan' is a useful device for prompting Russia to quickly agree to a political solution (ceasefire & elections).

Importantly, NATO countries have distanced themselves from Erdogan's belligerence but NATO itself still stands behind Turkey.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2015 18:52 utc | 185

@202 - No, that's you wiping 1,000,000 potential Svoboda members off of your chin.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 18:55 utc | 186

It's the Madman Theory.

As explained by Nixon (to Bob Haldeman):

I call it the Madman Theory, Bob. I want the North Vietnamese to believe I've reached the point where I might do anything to stop the war. We'll just slip the word to them that, "for God's sake, you know Nixon is obsessed about communism. We can't restrain him when he's angry—and he has his hand on the nuclear button" and Ho Chi Minh himself will be in Paris in two days begging for peace.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2015 18:59 utc | 187

@Jackrabbit - "IMO belligerence by 'crazy, unpredictable Erdogan' is a useful device for prompting Russia to quickly agree to a political solution (ceasefire & elections)"

But haven't the Russian's already agreed to ceasefire and elections more or less? I agree that there is a good cop/bad cop aspect to this, and Erdogan might even be "crazy cop" in which case the threat to try and close the Bosporous becomes a reality. This would put a huge restraint on the Russian efforts, including resupply of their fleet.

I did notice in the RT reports that the Russian's were copying in some ways the US method of deployment - every product at the base came from Russia, that kind of thing. Which means they are heavily reliant on shipments (though there may not be other options, considering the neighborhood). So potentially even the threat of closing the Bosporous could make the Russian's ears perk up. But it would be a huge move with very unpredictable consequences.

The war in Syria has always had this seesaw feel - a mix of real and stated red lines, some which can be crossed, others which can't and no one knows which. There's a lot of posturing, puffing up, and communication by escalation. It's a very dangerous situation which we should all be seriously worried about. And when you have lunatics like Erdogan - ordering the shootdown of planes and the gassing of his own people from his ridiculous gilded palace - playing the game, we should be extra worried.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 26 2015 19:13 utc | 188

I haven't seen this article linked to yet. It discusses several of the red lines, including Turkey closing the straits, and possible Russian responses: I Dare You, Turkey!

Apropos of a certain US holiday:

If the situation is seen from the point of view of Kagan and his allies, then the Turks were compelled to do what the US military didn’t want to. If we call things by their names, then Turkey was sacrificed. Thanksgiving Day is soon and this is perhaps the most vile and filthy of all holidays known to humanity, a holiday of betrayal as a life style and strategy for success. Each year the kindness of those who the future Americans waged a genocide against is remembered and rejoiced. This can only be a holiday for someone for whom Judas is a hero. A traditional treat on this “holiday of backstabbing” is a roasted Turkey. If this is not a coincidence, then it is impossible not to recognize that our opponents present a rather peculiar sense of humor.

Posted by: Vintage Red | Nov 26 2015 20:03 utc | 189

Mad dog erdogan didn't act alone. This was a planned casus belli. Why would NATO provoke war against Russia at this juncture? Time is not on the hegemon's side. There seems to be an initial crack leading to a decomposition of the NATO alliance. France appealed to Europe and not to NATO after the Paris attacks. France decided to forge an informal alliance with Russia while continue to pay lip service to the Assad must go club. The hordes of refugees from Syria via Turkey have put severe strains in the EEC. The imposed sanctions against Russia have put a huge damper in the economic recovery of Germany and France. The "Ukraine is not Russia Project" is already a failed state. Turkey is surrounded by enemies due to its stubborn ISIS support and stands to lose significant Natural Gas & Tourism business. Besides a chunk of Turkey's agricultural products, domestic appliances and foreign construction export business is at risk. Can the hegemon subsidise the economies of: Ukraine, Baltics, Turkey and the PIGS? Unlikely. The hegemon continues to print money but this is no substitute for a growing economy. So it seems that at this juncture, the neocons want war to break out. I doubt that Obama is in this because he is leaving the Oval Office to someone else shortly. But neocons are itching for a big conflagration to send Obama off with a big bang.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 21:22 utc | 190

Piggybacking on Syrian Girl's 'Why They Hate Us' piece, a short video by Eric Draitser talking about the Empire's demonization of Eritrea- just like Libya, ditto Syria: "The Danger of a Good Example" plays a significant role in why these countries are targeted for destruction, destabilization and/or dismantling:

Not that there aren't multiple agendas going on in all three cases, but it seems the Imperial PTB just won't stand for a nation trying to improve- or just not actively trying to immiserate- the lives of the general population, while maintaining a fair amount of independence in domestic and foreign policy. Not earth shattering news to anyone here, but I think this issue bears more scrutiny- that the Anglo-Zionists, Atlanticists, Globalists, NWO, call them what you will- they really are determined to kill any and all hope in its cradle in achieving their goals. And I'm not saying it's one unified command and control structure with some international hope-o-meter device that triggers alarm bells, and presto! out goes the orders to take action, but damn if it doesn't seem that way sometimes. Like the Legion of Doom, rising from the swamp every time a national industry doesn't get privatized, or a national park doesn't get fracked... Anyone remember that cartoon? Superfiends? Imagine it, a bunch of world villains- Dick Cheney, Tony Hayward (h/t to @somebody for pointing out his role in ISIS oil smuggling- effing dick that he is, figures), Bibi, some stereotypical terrorist, a few banksters- say, Lloyd Blankstein, Mario Draghi and Christine Legarde- sitting inside their Darth Vader helmet-looking headquarters, plotting their dastardly deeds... only there's no actual Superfriends to swoop in and save the day. And though I descend into silliness, I really do take this issue seriously. And I REALLY hope at least some of you remember that cartoon, otherwise the reference is completely worthless. Here's a pic of their HQ, anyway. And rising out of the swamp no less! :-)

* g77 @201... lol. Sheesh these people, but hey- as painful as it is to read the new trolls, same as the old trolls, think of it this way- b & the regs, for the most part, you can rest assured- you're doing SOMETHING right.

Posted by: Colinjames | Nov 26 2015 22:14 utc | 191

Russian MOD claimed "mysterious" (Special forces?) teams were also searching for the downed pilot with special equipment. It makes sense now that Maria Zakharova was asking quite pointedly of the Pentagon spokesman for information on who was firing from the ground at the parachuting pilots. This now unravels the whole operation as a pre planned ambush involving some "mysterious" professionals. No wonder the Russians and Syrians obliterated the mountain with airborne bombs, cruise missiles and MLRS artillery for several hours.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 22:58 utc | 192

@212 sun tze.. the whole operation from the get go looks bad on turkey and the whole concept of ''moderate'' rebels/terrorists... if you wanted folks to ''not'' see what was going on, you couldn't have planned it any worse then this..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 23:05 utc | 193

@ 213 james I wouldn't put it past the likes of McInsane and Graham to have winked at Erdogan's son and company. Obama may be off the hook because a moving company is scheduled to take his belongings out of the House soon. But the whole thing stinks. There was a professional hostile team on site hunting the pilot.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26 2015 23:13 utc | 194

But the whole thing stinks. There was a professional hostile team on site hunting the pilot.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 26, 2015 6:13:38 PM | 214


By your own admission the Russian MOD claimed "mysterious" (Special forces?) teams were also searching for the downed pilot - not quite the same thing

Posted by: MorningStar | Nov 26 2015 23:20 utc | 195

@214 sun tze... the usa turned a blind eye to this, or condoned it.. take yer pick.. there is no way turkey did this without getting a pass on it and yes it was a premeditated act on their part, as you can't be that trigger happy in a 17 second window of time, unless you had it planned out before hand.. i go back to the article in today's zaman - turkish english paper - - which nails it as far as i am concerned..

in the context of the article - the turkmen and turkish special forces in the area where the russian plane was attacking is the most obvious explanation for the shooting down of the plane.. now - we are being speculative here as turkey hasn't come out and told us they had special forces on the ground at the time, and i suspect even if they did - they never will... one has to use a little bit of imagination as opposed to the facts as given.. the problem with facts, is they are not revealed until much after the event and i am sure it is the same here..

thanks for your posts sun tzu.. it beats the heck out of the drivel from troll central that has been busy here this week at moa..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 23:50 utc | 196

never will 'say'..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2015 23:51 utc | 197

SunTsu@210 Mad dog Erdogan didn't act alone

I wasn't suggesting that he had. I've said more than once that his doing so would make little sense.

What I'm suggesting is that he is acting as "mad dog" with the approval of the 'Assad must go!' crowd.

Posted by: jackrabbit | Nov 27 2015 2:00 utc | 198

I'm not sure why anyone thinks this can all be attributed to one "evil genius". Maybe I'm just out of touch, but seriously, you think Obama is behind all of this? I don't think he has control of much of the war machine. I think we're pretty far into oligarch war era now with the intelligence community in various countries running the govt part of the show.

I'd like to think he's part of some kind of insider resistance to it -- one that's not doing much but slowing it down. But admittedly I go back and forth as to whether or not this is the case. One of Obama's greatest talents -- keeping everyone guessing about the extent to which he is a key part of it. When I see people like John Batchelor pointing to Obama, knowing he's one of the guys who spend their lives relentlessly and simplistically blaming Obama for everything for past 7 years, it makes me wonder even more. It makes things so simple for the propagandized public and shields the more complex answer about who is behind the curtain.

Posted by: gemini33 | Nov 27 2015 10:50 utc | 199

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