Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 14, 2015

What Preceded The Islamic State Attacks In France - Some Links (Updated)

This happened last night: At least 120 dead in Paris attacks, Hollande declares emergency

Gunmen and bombers attacked restaurants, a concert hall and a sports stadium at locations across Paris on Friday, killing at least 120 people in a deadly rampage that a shaken President Francois Hollande called an unprecedented terrorist attack.

The Islamic State claims responsibility (English version) for the attack.

But who weaponized and financed the Islamic State or prior organizations in Syria and Iraq from which this terror attack grew? Is this cartoon justified?

Cartoon of the day by Carlos Latuff


In 2012 - Hollande admits arming Syrian rebels in breach of embargo - book

The French president has admitted delivering weapons to the Syrian rebels during a period of EU embargo, a new book about to be published in France reveals.

The deliveries took place in 2012, before the embargo was canceled in May 2013, according to François Hollande's last year interview with journalist and writer Xavier Panon. "We began when we were certain they would end up in the right hands. For the lethal weapons it was our services who delivered them," Hollande told the writer, ...

Okt 2012 - Rebel Arms Flow Is Said to Benefit Jihadists in Syria

WASHINGTON — Most of the arms shipped at the behest of Saudi Arabia and Qatar to supply Syrian rebel groups fighting the government of Bashar al-Assad are going to hard-line Islamic jihadists, and not the more secular opposition groups that the West wants to bolster, according to American officials and Middle Eastern diplomats.

Dec 2012 - France funding Syrian rebels in new push to oust Assad

France has emerged as the most prominent backer of Syria's armed opposition and is now directly funding rebel groups around Aleppo as part of a new push to oust the embattled Assad regime.

Large sums of cash have been delivered by French government proxies across the Turkish border to rebel commanders in the past month, diplomatic sources have confirmed. The money has been used to buy weapons inside Syria and to fund armed operations against loyalist forces.

Aug 2014 - France delivered arms to Syrian rebels, Hollande confirms

President Francois Hollande said on Thursday that France had delivered weapons to rebels battling the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad “a few months ago.”
Nov 2015
Murad Gazdiev @MuradoRT
French APILAS rocket launcher supplied to #syria rebels fall into hands of #ISIS. Pics from #Deraa, Southern #Syria
12:09 PM - 6 Nov 2015

Jun 2014 - 'Thank God for the Saudis': ISIS, Iraq, and the Lessons of Blowback

[T]wo of the most successful factions fighting Assad’s forces are Islamist extremist groups: Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the latter of which is now amassing territory in Iraq and threatening to further destabilize the entire region. And that success is in part due to the support they have received from two Persian Gulf countries: Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

Qatar’s military and economic largesse has made its way to Jabhat al-Nusra, to the point that a senior Qatari official told me he can identify al-Nusra commanders by the blocks they control in various Syrian cities. But ISIS is another matter. As one senior Qatari official stated, “ISIS has been a Saudi project.”

France benefited from its support for the U.S.-Wahhabi regime change project in Syria and Iraq by getting huge orders for military equipment from the medieval Wahhabi regimes:

Apr 2015 - France and Qatar seal $7 billion Rafale fighter jet deal

Qatar has agreed to buy 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets in a 6.3-billion-euro (4.55 billion pounds) deal, the French government said on Thursday, as the Gulf Arab state looks to boost its military firepower in an increasingly unstable region.

June 2015 - Saudi Arabia and France ink $12bln deal

Saudi Arabia and France agreed Wednesday to sign $12 billion of deals, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubair said during a landmark visit by Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to Paris.

Even after it became obvious for everyone that the regime change project in Syria has led to an expansion of terrorism Hollande was still demanding the end of the Syrian state.

Sept 2015 - François Hollande of France Says Assad Must Go

President François Hollande of France told the United Nations General Assembly on Monday that his country would “shoulder its responsibilities” in global efforts to end the fighting in Syria, but that the conflict could be resolved only if President Bashar al-Assad was removed from power.

Can Hollande now change his tune?

Posted by b on November 14, 2015 at 6:46 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

@188: "Yeah Right: The thing is, "support" and "engineered" are not mutually exclusive categories."

I understand what you are saying, and I suggested in post 173 that "the West" needs to take a long, hard look at the House of Saud and the Turkish AKP and consider What Needs To Be Done About Them Both.

But, sorry, I can't agree with your statement.

While few would deny that both Saudi Arabia and Turkey provide "support" to ISIS, there is no evidence to suggest that either Salman's nor Erdogan's minions helped in any way to "engineer" this attack.

To my way of thinking it's the difference between "fellow travellers" and "co-conspirators".

You have a difference of opinion and, heck, it may well turn out that you are right and I am wrong. But I don't think so.

I just think that those two (plus the other Gulf states and - maybe - Israel, all for their own reasons) have helped to unleash forces that they can't really control. Which is bad enough, sure, and in a rational world would be grounds enough for a bit o' regime-changing.

But let's not deny a singular truth about who "engineered" this outrage.

Not Turkey.
Not Saudi Arabia.

ISIS did this.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 15 2015 4:11 utc | 201

Re-reading this thread....

I realize that it is still early in the investigation, but it is already clear that there is much weirdness about this attack:

- yelling "Syria" (WTF?);

- finding a passport (WTF?);

- compliant media that focuses on effects instead of causes (AngryArab's notes makes that abundantly clear);

- the oh-so-convenient timing:

> the US-led coalition can now put boots on the ground in time to prevent the Russia-Iran coalition to overrun rebel and ISIS held territory in eastern Syria and western Iraq;

>the failure to fight ISIS effectively UNTIL THE LAST FEW DAYS:

- the hyped-up supposed killing of Jihadi John;

- the Kurds attack in Sinjar (with 50 US Special Forces?)

Some already believe that ISIS is nothing but a brand for a group of intelligence agencies that are working together. While that seems far-fetched to most, the origins of ISIS, the support that they receive from Turkey, KSA and others, and the unenthusiastic military response raises many questions. Questions that the media seem uninterested in asking.

Consider, for example, the group of US intelligence analysts that recently complained that their analysis was being distorted. Their warnings that ISIS is growing and the bombing was ineffective was replaced with false reports that progress was being made against ISIS.

Anyone paying attention must wonder if Turkey/KSA/CIA/or others have some degree of influence over ISIS. Consequenly, Piotr Berman's speculation @92 is not unwarranted:

"False flag" may mean different things. For example, by using your agents inside a "genuine terrorist organization" you can steer a group to do what you want.... These types of false flag are quite safe [for the organizers of the terror], because for ground level operators everything is genuine.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 15 2015 4:30 utc | 202

I didn't follow this at all yesterday. Today instead of following it I came here & learned a great deal from b & from you'all. I just now spent an hour on the net and----- I think all of us missed the 2 most important things:

1. The GOAL, the purpose. One I suggested as possible was

-- Reverse the centrifugal forces pulling EU apart. Fearful citizenry want security. (The Russians Are Coming campaign was effective in stopping anti-EU, anti-NATO sentiment a year ago in Eastern Europe).

Close, but no cigar. Paul Craig Roberts got the correct GOAL, IMO:

"The threat to the European political establishment is not ISIL. The threats are the rising anti-EU, anti-immigrant political parties: Pegida in Germany, the UK Independence Party, and the National Front in France. The latest poll shows the National Front’s Marine Le Pen leading as the likely French president.

"Something had to be done about the hords of refugees from Washington’s wars, or the establishment political parties faced defeat at the hands of political parties that are also unfriendly to Europe’s subservience to Washington.

"EU rules about refugees and immigrants and Germany’s acceptance of one million of the refugees, together with heavy criticism of those governments in Eastern Europe that wanted to put up fences to keep out the refugees, made closing borders impossible.

"With the Paris terror attacks, what was impossible became possible, and the President of France immediately announced the closing of France’s borders. The border closings will spread. The main issue of the rising dissident political parties will be defused. The EU will be safe, and so will Washington’s sovereignty over Europe."

2. The 2d thing we all missed was almost named by AriusArmenian: "A Gladio false flag operation can easily be under the cover of ISIS personnel. Gladio operatives are within a countries intelligence department and can shepherd the terrorists around all obstacles."

Close, but no cigar. Ladies & gentlemen, the question it was incumbent upon us to ask is, How do we know it was ISIS? How do we know there were any ISIS involved? In the US when they set up a patsy, US rogue govt elements do the killing & blame the patsy. Paul Craig Roberts

And my personal question is: Are there any pictures of these guys, the perps who are all dead? Or just "witnesses" telling us about them? I'm probably out of line here. There ARE pictures, right?

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 4:46 utc | 203

Definitely staged, they just found a ''Syrian passport'' supposedly. Every staged event there is always a ''passport key'' left behind so we know who to blame. It's in the terrorist handbook, always bring your passport when you are committing acts of terror!

Posted by: Niels | Nov 15 2015 4:51 utc | 204

Definitely staged, they just found a passport supposedly. Every staged event there is always a passport left behind so we know who to blame. It's in the terrorist handbook, always bring your passport when you are committing acts of terror!

Posted by: Niels | Nov 15 2015 4:51 utc | 205

BTW, I remember in 2001, I was a teenager so, the twin towers in NYC where the airplanes were vaporized with the bodies of all the people on the airplanes, but they managed to find a passport of one of the Saudi terrorist, what a bunch of lies, but the worst part is that the shepple believes this kind of lies.

Posted by: Niels | Nov 15 2015 4:55 utc | 206

@206 niels... as was mentioned by me @95 discussing the others pointing it out even earlier in the thread - "@50 okie quote "Syria passport found on one the suicide bombers. At the football stadium." reminds me of the line of mohamad atta's password found in the wreckage of the world trade centre.. i see @70 Neretva'43 extends on my viewpoint."

Posted by: james | Nov 15 2015 5:16 utc | 207

First thing any self-respecting terrorist will do is make sure he puts his passport in his inside jacket pocket along with a pack of mini Ritz crackers and a granola bar.

This time was unique in that none before had shouted both "Syria, Oh Sweet Syria, How I love thee!" along with the traditional and expected Aloha Akbar.

I see on twitter that there's a brand new video release - Rita Katz style - wherein yet again, Evil Mooslims are calling for more death to whitey.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15 2015 5:39 utc | 208

Psychohistorian @ 137 & jfl @ 156, A great many people have insisted that US foreign policy is run by Israel. It always seemed to me that rather they were both members of the same firm-- both being run by the same 30 families (now perhaps more). The article seems to demonstrate that this is the case, and that the US sets the particularly evil tasks for Israel to perform. If it were widely known that the US didn't merely subsidize Israel because it's "the only democracy in the Middle East", but because the actions which Israel performs are desired by the US power structure I think it wd be a tremendous blow to the legitimacy of the govt. It may seem like no big deal to you because you've known it all along-- but most Americans don't, and proof of it wd be very powerful.

Rostislav Ischenko's article on Voltaire writes of how US "resources" are exhausted and how she must therefore give up her plan to rule the world financially & militarily. But IMO it's a crisis of legitimacy which has cost the impetus, the will, purpose & strength of their Plan. Those at the very top of the pyramid are proud of their depravity and feel confirmed in their unique status by their ability to break all the rules of decency. But not very many tiers below them are those who must appear moral at least in the eyes of others. Morality, and the exposure of having flaunted it is much mre powerful than you think.

Psychohistorian, your question "What if the ones at the top running both US & Israel are Jewish?" I'm sure some are. Internationally, Rothschild obviously. Lazard Freres in France? I don't know. Who's behind Deutsche Bank? I don't know. Suppose the US oligarchs are half Jewish & half Anglo-Saxon. Does it matter? I think I'm missing your point.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 6:07 utc | 209

You got me a good spot near the top, right? Thanks!

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 6:11 utc | 210

ISIS may claim it did it.BUT why send suicide bombers all the way to Paris to kill civilians so france can send armed forces to bomb them?

this is the work of someone else

Posted by: brian | Nov 15 2015 6:17 utc | 211

ref passport
-no one wants to be caught by the police before action just because he doesn't have an ID with him (compulsory in France)
-it is difficult even for Syrians to get a Syrian passport (+ it has to be stamped with an exit visa to get out), i.e. this is certainly a fake passport, made for the purposes of crossing borders after getting out (probably through Turkey where they certainly don't ask their own guys for this type of documents, at least when first crossing in)

Posted by: Mina | Nov 15 2015 6:19 utc | 212

Hollande says IS is behind the attacks. Borders are closed, six locations where attacks occurred, State of Emergency.

Posted by: okie farmer | Nov 14, 2015 5:13:42 AM | 29

hollande looking for/creating? an excuse to bomb syria? and improve his popularity

Posted by: brian | Nov 15 2015 6:24 utc | 213

James @ 189, I'm off-topic re the rwo hoaxes. I only picked up on someone else's using them as examples. W/B happy to discuss them next open comment line. Meanwhile you might look at the photographic links I provided.
Regards. Appreciate the response.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 6:29 utc | 214

@209 Penelope,

I was not trying to make the point which country was leading but that the global plutocratic families were instead.

The comment about US resources running out is really, IMO, about faith running out in the fiat US dollar as the world's Reserve Currency. I believe we are quickly approaching that point.

I have experienced the moral depravity of lesser trust fund products and their entitlement mentality so I consciously extrapolate my experience up the ladder of Manifest Depravity.

I do believe that a preponderance of the global plutocratic families that I posit about are Jewish. (full disclosure - I was married to a Jewish woman for 17 years and left her with some part of it being Jewish persecution) I see them as an understandably paranoid group of our species that, because of their persecution, should not be wielding international financial and economic power against their real or perceived enemies. I also believe generally that it is a bad idea to have a historical clique of families direct humanity instead of some sort of publicly empowered and responsible group.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 15 2015 6:54 utc | 215

syrian passport seems to be a fake

WikiLeaks ‏@wikileaks 6h6 hours ago
'Syrian' passport found in Paris a fake: picture did not match name
A U.S. intelligence official told CBS News that a name and picture were recovered from the Syrian passport and the individual was not known to intelligence officials.

However, a U.S. intelligence official told CBS News the Syrian passport might be fake. The official said the passport did not contain the correct numbers for a legitimate Syrian passport and the picture did not match the name.

CBS report says most of the dead were not killed by bombs but by machine why use bombs at all?

Posted by: brian | Nov 15 2015 7:03 utc | 216

Psychohistorian, thanks for the link.

Salient points of Press conference from the 2d Vienna Talks.

France promised a merciless response. [Last bombing was against Syria's oil facilities.] Shift of focus to defeating ISIS. Ceasefire except against ISIS. Russia has struck some targets for which FSA supplied the intel.
Lavrov: "I have a feeling that there is a growing recognition of the need to create an effective international coalition to fight Islamic State." Formal talks between opposition & govt by Jan 1.

"Within a target of six months, establish credible, inclusive and non-sectarian governance, and set a schedule and process for drafting a new constitution," the statement said.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said most but not all countries at the talks were in favor of an immediate truce.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 7:17 utc | 217

As somone else said, white supremacy going on in MSM right now, really awful.

Posted by: Seder | Nov 15 2015 8:01 utc | 218

The angry arab's take on this is correct.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 15 2015 8:16 utc | 219

@211 "ISIS may claim it did it."

Well, yes, they did claim they did it.

"BUT why send suicide bombers all the way to Paris to kill civilians so france can send armed forces to bomb them?"

Oh, that does actually make sense.

ISIS is facing a thorough thumping at the hands of the Russians.
The Russians are not going to be deterred from that thumping.
ISIS therefore needs someone else to get in Russia's way.

So attack "the West", and hope that they become so irrationally deranged that NATO insists on rolling into Syria with All Guns Blazing.

NATO: Get Out Of Our Way, Putin!
Russia: No. Stop being stupid.
NATO: Then take this, ya' bastards!!!
[Kerpow!] [Biff!] [Bash!]
ISIS: Excellent. That worked better than we'd hoped.

That's the plan: attack Western targets, then hope that the response is so breathtakingly incompetent that it triggers a war with Russia, because that will produce chaos within which ISIS can thrive.

And - let's face it - the West's best and brightest are so hopeless that the plan might work.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 15 2015 8:42 utc | 220

Just to add to the stew: the Bataclan is Jewish-owned, and the rock group, Eagles of Death Metal, is outspokenly pro-Israel and anti-BDS. One link with details. By the way, the group has now fled, and abandoned the rest of its tour of Europe, which was planned to last into December. Europe is a fearsome place for (some) Americans.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2015 9:04 utc | 221

Oh no! I'm a bozo who has been added to an ignore list! Whatever will I do? My issue with conspiracy theorists in general is the consistent lack of evidence they present. They seldom have much beyond nit-picking and saying 'oh, isn't this thing convenient?'.

On the issue of 9/11 'Truthers' specifically, they lie. Constantly. Both explicitly and by omission. And when they aren't lying they're bullshitting; telling others to "do their research" while spewing out the same long debunked garbage they've been saying for a decade and a half.

Posted by: Plenue | Nov 15 2015 9:59 utc | 222

psychohistorian @ 115, Obviously I, too want to get rid of the psychopaths who have stolen or inhibited govts everywhere. I just don't really think it matters whether they are 50% or 90% jewish. I wd feel exactly the same about them if they were Bagladeshi. So I didn't know if you had a point in mind as to why it wd matter if they turned out to be more jewish.

Anyway, as you know we sure share the belief that we've got to get rid of the supranational institutions, restrict inheritance, decentralize the resultant sovereign countries, etc. In a perfect world. . . .

Do me a favor? Look really, really skeptically at the video footage of this Parisian "event". Could one take pictures like these if the entire thing were a hoax? I'm not saying it IS a hoax: I lack sufficient data. In fact, that's the trouble: The media is amplifying what there is, but it's weirdly lacking.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 10:08 utc | 223

@7 I agree it was not a false flag for the reason given of "No false flag attack would use multiple suicide bombers." And yes it would be "Too difficult" but I would say that it would be basically impossible to be a "false flag" if it is perpetrated by suicide bombers because how in the world would that make sense? Are we seriously to believe that some spy agency would be able to get people to take their own lives in order to serve an agenda of "faking that the attack is coming from someone else such as ISIS?" How in the world could that possibly make sense? Do these conspiracy theorists never think about that? Do they have a totally distorted idea about how willing people would be to take their own lives?! To serve as agents for an intel organization and carry out a plan is one thing, to willingly commit suicide in order to carry out the plan is something very different! The fact that it involves suicide bombers points to highly motivated people who can rely on their faith to help them go through with it and who are striking back for the reasons that were shouted during the attack "this is for Syria" and "It is the fault of Holland, he does not have to intervene in Syria!" (translated from "C’est la faute de Hollande, il n’a pas à intervenir en Syrie!" )

As far as a motive for the attack, when I heard about the Paris attacks the very first thing that popped into my head was about how I remember reading recently that "France launches its first airstrikes against ISIS in Syria" and I looked it up and sure enough it was On Sept 27, 2015 that France launched its first airstrikes against ISIS in Syria":

Now think about it, clearly the powers were behind the agenda of the French government bombing Syria. Does it make any sense at all to "fake an attack" where the perpetrators are saying the policy of bombing Syria is why they are attacking? Doesn't blaming the actions of the French government one of the last things the powers that be would want (BECAUSE IT MIGHT MAKE FRENCH PEOPLE PRESSURE THEIR GOVERNMENT TO STOP MAKING THEM TARGETS BY BOMBING OTHERS!) Clearly that is the motive of the attack if you attack and kill French people and shout, "C’est la faute de Hollande, il n’a pas à intervenir en Syrie!" It would make no sense at all for "secret agents" to "fake" an attack that could bring an end to a policy that clearly those in power support. To people insisting "false flag," PLEASE stop with the irrational conspiracies and let's deal with reality. BTW, as an independent journalist, I am getting screwed over by YouTube as You can see in this video (I talk about it near the end of this short video and ask people so sign and share the petition):

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Nov 15 2015 10:15 utc | 224

Jackrabbit @ 202, Point well-taken. I keep looking at those silly balaclava costumes. Why wd they wear those for the cameras, except to hide their indentities/ what race they are, etc. SOMEBODY is running around out there in the eastern desert & selling the oil. Maybe it's really al qaeda occasionally playing dress-up as ISIS.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 10:22 utc | 225


- the oh-so-convenient timing:
> the US-led coalition can now put boots on the ground in time to prevent the Russia-Iran coalition to overrun rebel and ISIS held territory in eastern Syria and western Iraq;

Jack, I commented above about the outcome of the Vienna 2 talks:
1. Ceasefire, except against ISIS
2. Lavrov says something about expecting a much broader coalition in fighting ISIS.

I'm baffled on both counts.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 15 2015 10:29 utc | 226

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin’
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it’s your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people’s blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You’ve thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain’t worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I’m young
You might say I’m unlearned
But there’s one thing I know
Though I’m younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death’ll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand o’er your grave
’Til I’m sure that you’re dead

Bob Dylan Copyright © 1963 by Warner Bros. Inc.

While I do believe all sentient beings will become moral, loving & compassionate, it can take countless aeons for them to do so.

Posted by: Tenor | Nov 15 2015 10:42 utc | 227

@ 203 Penelope

Two very good points, thanks.

About your second point:
Even b is a believer (in some website that claims Islamic State responsibility)

Within one hour of the Paris attacks and without any evidence, the story was set in stone that the perpetrator was ISIL. This is the way propaganda works.

When the West does it, it always succeeds, because the world is accustomed to following the lead of the West. I was amazed to see, for example, Russian news services helping to spread the official story of the Paris attacks despite Russia herself having suffered so often from planted false stories.

Posted by: From The Hague | Nov 15 2015 11:21 utc | 228

Can we have more information on what Lavrov agreed. I can't believe they would think a ceasefire would work.
Another joke like minks2?

Posted by: James lake | Nov 15 2015 11:53 utc | 229

here is another pre-warning. If you chase it up on Reddit you will see it was a real message and the imgur screen snap posted here is not a fabrication. Some other tampering is of course never excluded.

What to make of it? Perhaps nothing much, or coincidence. How many pre-warnings of terror attacks of this kind exist? I guess many, and only the correct or vaguely germane ones are dug up post hoc. Still, there is the precise date.

neretva 92 those are genuine images of the attack afaik.

Everyone, the world is awash in fake Syrian passports, even if they are bloody expensive. One being found somewhere means nothing, it is the kind of thing the police communicate (hey! we found something!) and the media and then the internets latch onto.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 15 2015 12:08 utc | 230

They agreed on nothing. Yes, it is Theater of the Absurd key sentence is "Put simply, there are bad guys all around and good guys who are not accustomed to working with each other."

In typical western movie fashion there are bad guys (native Indians) and good guys (white man). This time the white man are not "accustomed to working with each other" meaning the Russians and the Americans. The USA (and EU) see this as racial issue, in a sense let unleash "shock and awe" they are anyway "sand niggers", since they have disdain for everything and anything non-white.

Probably, US is surprised by "principled" stance of Putin's government, and US yet have to find formulae of offer the Russian cannot refuse. So far "mistake" from the past,in cases of Iraq and Libya, Russians did not repeat.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 12:28 utc | 231


You are gifted person, I have no doubt in it. But not to convince me, if you like Satanic cults and yet like to call them Government so be it. Shakespeare would say "What fools these mortals be".

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 12:40 utc | 232

for those interested to experience symbiosis of genuine grief and shopping here is opportunity

while at this, it is know that bond between father and daughter are very firm. Genuine lairs, who found employment with Fox Channel, have a story to tell. I'll be damned, but I do believe he is shaken.

and to reinforce the whole this inevitable investors in various Pentagon's projects U2

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 12:56 utc | 233

Penelope has posted a lot about goals etc. Comments on France, the EU.

This attack is terrible for France (Hollande, Gvmt., Deep State or whatever), except in the usual sense of ‘stifffer authoritarianism, scaring the people.’

I experienced the exploitation of a mini-‘terrarist’ attack, June 2015 - someone was decapitated, etc., link is in F, and it wasn’t terrorist, nor a False Flag, but the perp was a Muslim who went postal. After it was all over no/little explanations came out… I was in F when it happened.

The media/Gvmt. exploitation was over the top, absolutely hallucinating, Hollande cancelled all his meetings and trips, made speeches almost identical to the ones heard now (except he was calm and unmoved), the whole Gvmt. went into emergency, soldiers were posted everywhere, half of France was praying, the other half crying (exageration!), the week-end was ruined. The intl. media did not pick this up as it was rubbish. So there is that. Cry wolf, and you eventually call up a real wolf…

For the rest. How does this advance Hollande and Fabius’ staunch agenda of removing Assad? It does not, it can only strengthen.. nay it practically forces Hollande to take a strong bold stance, at least in public, against what everyone (Jean-Pierre and Marie-Anne, the army, the police, etc.) knows to be the horrific crazed inhuman enemy, IS - islamist terrorism. France is also shown to be weak, all the Vigipirate etc. programs are sh*t.

A quick dekko around some pop boards, a VERY common sentiment is calling for Hollande’s head; changes in foreign policy; leaving the Syria / ME mess; quitting NATO, etc. The public solidarity show, as displayed in Charlie Hebdo attack, is also wearing thin, one post JE SUIS PARIS attracted a huge amount of ‘cut it out’ comments. (Sadness and solidarity with victims etc. is expressed appropriately, not saying the F don’t care about the deaths, horror, etc.)

This attack weakens the EU. As the ‘closing of borders, each going their own way’ and the general tension and mess that will ensue, including around the ‘migrant’ issue, will be bothersome or … explosive (sic).

The EU top brass, Gvmt. heads Merkel and Hollande, even Cameron, and their US handlers, don’t wish this, or at least, not in this form. The attack forces the locals, facing their public, to stop ‘spinning,’ drowning in obfuscation, contradictions, bureaucracy, etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 15 2015 13:40 utc | 236

Authentic exchange of fire?

Looks inauthentic. Two policemen, one firing, returning ineffective gunfire down a darkened street. No helicopter support. No lights. No flash grenades.

This would be an extremely high-priority situation requiring great resources, lighting, choppers, and personnel.

Certainly, French Police are as capable and well-equipped as any first-world police outfit.

Instead you see a Keystone Cops caper.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15 2015 13:44 utc | 237

"After it was all over no/little explanations came out…"

No? Nothing on CNN, the Guarian, Le Monde etc., Chris Amanpour?

Here is the one:


Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 13:50 utc | 238

Neretva, at 238, my ‘no explanations came out’ (which isn’t quite true, there were a few on the back pages, but generally not noticed, certainly never reffered to or taken into account in any way, the incident was a personal quarrel) concerned ONE decapitated Frenchman in June 2015, a supposed ‘terrorist’ attack. Not about the November Paris attacks. And I was the first to post the link you post.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 15 2015 14:01 utc | 239

@fast freddy

Yes but that's kind operational observance on this terrible police unit.

A clip in not raw. There is cut at 0:40 mark so it is edited, maybe not too important but...

at 11 second mark, if someone is throwing firecrackers, we see the sparks and immediately smoke a lot to be attributed to ricochet bullets.

45 second looks like real bullets hitting that building, so there must be pokes at it, are coming out from that street. But given the smoke is someone is firing from very close distance of that traffic light, he is just around the corner.

at 1:07 a lot of smoke from that street and no sound?

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 14:03 utc | 240

@Noirette | Nov 15, 2015 9:01:09 AM | 239

What link, from 238? No idea, did not see it.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15 2015 14:07 utc | 241

brian @ 211

> ISIS may claim it did it.BUT why send suicide bombers all the way to Paris to kill civilians so france can
> send armed forces to bomb them?

Beyond that, most of France's bombing was directed @ other "coalition" anti al-Assad groups.

brian @ 216

> CBS report says most of the dead were not killed by bombs but by machine why use bombs at all?

And, they were crude "hardware store" bombs: small propane tanks wrapped in shrapnel (nails and such). Seems to me ISIS has access to explosives, detonators and remote "ignition" hardware.

Doesn't make any sense to me, that ISIS was behind this.

Seems more likely just some guys that completely "lost it": not that different then school-killing whackos here (U.S.) from time to time. Maybe even some Syrian refugees stuck in Europe who've been through the wringer and simply "snapped".

Jewish persecution) I see them as an understandably paranoid group of our species that, because of their persecution, should not be wielding international financial and economic power against their real or perceived enemies. I also believe generally that it is a bad idea to have a historical clique of families direct humanity instead of some sort of publicly empowered and responsible group.

psychohistorian @ 215

> Jewish persecution

"persecution complex" not unique to Jews by any means.

Posted by: jdmckay | Nov 15 2015 14:18 utc | 242


ref passport
-no one wants to be caught by the police before action just because he doesn't have an ID with him (compulsory in France)

On the passport brouhaha.

As I wrote eons ago, back @Lone Wolf@96 (French bombings? Target: Syria), no intel/clandestine/guerrilla operative worth its name would ever carry an ID to an operation, UNLESS it is part of the same, an ID carried to be found, in order to mislead/confuse/sidetrack the investigation.

So much noise about a fake passport. What did they expect? A legit one with the home address, phone number and emergency contact details?

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 15 2015 14:18 utc | 243

@ all conspidiots

ofc it's authentic, it's 10PM ie just the beginning with local cops who have hardly any clue yet of the scope of the attacks, cops assault on Bataclan came more than 2 hours later

Posted by: zingaro | Nov 15 2015 14:28 utc | 244

# -and you are for sure air head-American.

Posted by: sejmon | Nov 15 2015 14:29 utc | 245

Blood-Soaked Vampire Hillary is now FORCED to one-up the Drooling Republican Vampires with more and greater bombast; xenophobic hate speech with concomitant calls for murderous revenge - retaliation by drone bombing Mooslim Wedding Parties.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15 2015 14:30 utc | 246

PCR reports from one his sources that allegedly the French security forces were at the receiving end of a massive cyber attack before and during the shootings. If borne out, there is no way a false flag can be ruled out.
Sorry, b

Posted by: mh505 | Nov 15 2015 14:43 utc | 247

plenue at 222 --

Also known as the "Lalalalala-can't-hear-you list."

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 14:57 utc | 248

Something's up when the nyt offers free digital access...

Posted by: Flyod | Nov 15 2015 15:01 utc | 249

further to 248 --

And if you need an example of how different murders are treated, look here in the open thread. States can't kill anybody, non-state actors, especially those killing jews, get to drop all they want.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 15:02 utc | 250

Something's up when the nyt offers free digital access...

Posted by: Flyod | Nov 15, 2015 10:01:07 AM | 249

Another piece of evidence for the FF hypothesis. Rapid Worldwide Dissemination of the warmongering propaganda. All the colored lights on the buildings. We are resolute.

The vaunted NYT - responsible for catapulting the propaganda that directly lead to the bombing of Iraq. Cheney, Scooter Libby, Judy Miller, Stovepipe.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15 2015 15:26 utc | 251


On what list shall we put those who excuse murder?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 15 2015 15:32 utc | 252


Denying or underestimating the Islamic State's ability to project power will only leave you with a false sense of security. This was a coordinated, planned and synchronously executed multi target attack by dedicated operatives. The French frontier is closed, they are not viewing this as anything but an act of war.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Nov 15 2015 15:38 utc | 253

@253 Hollande has said as much. But who are they at war with? All muslims, some muslims, all terrorists or just some terrorists? That is the question.

Posted by: dh | Nov 15 2015 15:50 utc | 254

Here's a "nutty" FF video which happens to be full of facts.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15 2015 15:56 utc | 255

sorry a typo, I read at 238, not 138, the following;

"After it was all over no/little explanations came out…"
No? Nothing on CNN, the Guarian, Le Monde etc., Chris Amanpour?
Here is the one:


Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 15, 2015 8:50:11 AM | 238

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 15 2015 16:20 utc | 256


Good questions, to legally declare war on the Islamic State France/the West would have to recognize the IS as a State which is unlikely so the illegal Crusader war will expand just as the IS desires bringing more support to their cause as the acceptable collateral killing also expands.

The refugees in or heading to Europe will be scapegoated and probably segregated or deported which will also drive more people into this war.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Nov 15 2015 16:42 utc | 257

9/11 normalized declaring war on non state actors and all of NATO followed along.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Nov 15 2015 17:55 utc | 258

The Gulf of Tonkin attacks and the Gladio projects in Italy were false flags. Winding up adolescent boys and sending them on suicide missions may be stretching the envelope of the definition of a false flag; but it is not outside the realm of this kind of dirty work. To be utterly dismissive of this possibility is to forget the empire's many dead, and to lose an accounting of where the bodies are buried.

What happened to the ghost armies that were flown into El Salvador in the 80s?--where every living thing in one unfortunate Salvadoran village, including the livestock and pets, was butchered?

The School of the Americas, the constantly morphing Operation Gladio, and the victory lap IS(IS) took in Iraq where it emerged, possessing long convoys of American heavy weapons; I guess all that must also just be a soap bubble in the imagination of the conspiracy-minded. To that, we must add the unmolested movements of lines of shiny new Toyota trucks across the tracked and trackless deserts, and the made-for-TV productions and immaculate uniforms,and studio work. The public relations operation of what is mostly described as a front operation for the West (at least on many of these threads) is not capable of opening, on its own, the floodgates of a chaotic mass of desperate people into Europe, most of whom seem not to have gone through the normal screening processes, associated with refugees and migrants.

The reality of seeing war being waged in the streets of Paris, and G20 meeting convening the very next day, ought to be the cause of some sobering reflection on the whole chain of events in the Syrian Crisis that has led us to this moment. Naturally the people in France are scared of what may happen next; and there are stories reported today about fear in the ranks of those who have genuinely come to France as refugees from war, in fear for their lives, who now also are afraid of others who are mingling with them, a terror that has migrated with them, and threatens what they imagined was a safe haven.

I apologize for jumping into the debate here yesterday without first reading through the thread. The memories of so much that has been revealed and discussed here at Moon of Alabama floods through these events.

Posted by: Copeland | Nov 15 2015 18:14 utc | 259

147;Oh yeah,reality is an act.Yeah,the goyim own the Israeli media.They genuflect to our pols.Noam Chomsky is an American apologist.
The Saudis and Jordanians do as told as the peoples of their nations would probably chop their heads off wo our support.And the banksters hold their dough,like Irans.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 15 2015 18:19 utc | 260

187;If the Zionists aren't real fascists,who is?Really now.Religious inspired racist ethnic state supremacists.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 15 2015 18:25 utc | 261

And the Ukraine,as important and as potentially explosive as any issue today,doesn't influence,cajole,critique,control American policy,while American policy,at least since the death of Kennedy,is controlled by Zion,and is the impetus for the whole of the Asian and ME disaster we are living through.
If they were productive for US,Israel or the world,I'd have no problem,as their being a light unto other nations is highly wished for.My comments has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism,unless that means truth seeking.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 15 2015 18:31 utc | 262

Boston Marathon;Well there definitely was a bombing,and quite a few people were maimed and killed,which is documented,so I can't fathom it being a sham,although the perps(alleged)were let here purposely,to tweak the russkies,no less.Definite perfect patsies,that's for sure,that's for dang sure.
The world mourns the French,and dissed the Russians.What a joke.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 15 2015 18:44 utc | 263

rufus @250: lamenting that...

... States [veiled reference to Israel] can't kill anybody, non-state actors, especially those killing jews, get to drop all they want.

OMG, you are still at it!

States are held to a different standard. Its called civilization.

Your 'eye-for-an-eye' excuse for Israeli State-sanctioned murder leaves the whole word blind (Ghandi).

And I will further remind you that: peace is not the absence of conflict, it is the presence of justice. (MLK)


I really wish that you would be 'dropped' from MoA for this insensitive comment (which you evidently believe so strongly).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 15 2015 18:59 utc | 264

Hows this for casual;3 Israeli arrested for massive internet fraud,not reported in the MSM.(public relations,sheesh)It was at Angry Arab,whose blog is very illuminating.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 15 2015 19:00 utc | 265


Posted by: Daisee | Nov 15 2015 19:30 utc | 266

@255 "facts?" This guy thinks if intel agencies have a meeting it is proof that they carried out a terrorist attack, what the hell kind of logic is that? Everything is a "false flag" to that clown:
It is frustrating that irrationalists feel compelled to post comments here on such a good political blog. Wouldn't you guys be happier over at Alex Jones forums?

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Nov 15 2015 21:05 utc | 267

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 15 2015 22:13 utc | 268

On the oft-mentioned Operation Gladio: you guys do realize that there is no credible evidence linking Cold War stay-behind networks to terrorism, right? And that the key document U.S. Army Field Manual 30-31B is a well known forgery? Of course you don't.

Posted by: Plenue | Nov 15 2015 22:25 utc | 269

Nicely dehumanizing touch. We know what the "civilized" usually affect to be with their rights do with the "uncivilized."

Can't take the heat, don't work in the kitchen. Unhinged in the face of criticism or questions, but wants me thrown off.

And, again, "fascist" has a specific historic meaning. It is not "folks I dislike."

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 23:19 utc | 270

wayout at 257 --

I just hate it when you're right. Doesn't happen that often (more than some), but you tend to nail it when it does occur. Let's hope this marks the start of good run for you.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 23:32 utc | 271

TMurphy at 267 --


Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 15 2015 23:36 utc | 272

@224 TM 'Are we seriously to believe that some spy agency would be able to get people to take their own lives in order to serve an agenda of "faking that the attack is coming from someone else such as ISIS?" '

Well that would be crazy and unbelievable. But - just as in the 9/11 attack - it is quite possible that CIA/Mossad/French Intelligence discovered an attack in planning and then stood aside and allowed to go forward - or, as the FBI has been doing in the US so often, sent in a provocateur to seed, encourage, and enable such an attack itself.

So is this sort of attack a 'false flag' attack? I won't argue over the label, but it is an attack involving - or purposefully not involving in the second instance - agents other than those who actually die in the terrorist attack itself.

As posted by: Noirette | Nov 15, 2015 8:40:55 AM | 236 this attack seems to 'benefit' neither Da'esh nor (hopefully, the revulsion is rising) the US/EU/NATO side.

So who messed up? Da'esh? or US/EU/NATO? Or was it someone else ... KSA ... entirely? The KSA seems quite able to confound its own interests to this extent ... look at Yemen.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 16 2015 0:47 utc | 273

@rufus the bullshiter


You are insulting our intelligence and making a mockery of MoA. Much of what is written here at MoA relates to state wrong-doing (especially deep-state). People make these complaint because the State is held to higher standard. We all know that they often fail to live up to the standard but that doesn't negate the standard.

You would excuse Israel from rebuke for murder simply because non-state Jihadis have killed more people than Israel (If they [Israel] expect to beat the jihadis, they will need to pick up the pace.). This is silly and base to be sure, but you are adamant. Why? because in your eyes the conflict is Jews vs. Arabs in medieval eye-for-an-eye carnage (The general conflict is between the Israelis and the Arab and Islamic World. I believe that ISIS/ISIL and the Wahabists, and Shia Iran as well, have their aim the retaking of Palestine.).

Yet you pretend to be humanist and socialist and tell us that you believe that the Palestinians have been wronged (!):

I have previously stated my support for an immediate end to all settlements, with an eye to their eventual removal, and the payment of reparations to the Palestinians for the destruction of lives and property... As a socialist, I on principle oppose all bourgeois states and movements.

What a crock! In fact, you know that there is little chance that the Palestinians will ever see any semblance of justice as long as Israeli can ground them down with impunity.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2015 1:39 utc | 274

@269 " there is no credible evidence linking Cold War stay-behind networks to terrorism"

What are you talking about? I don't know about the field manual, but when all one has to do is go to Wikipedia to get the WaPo, La Republica, and BBC references for links between the sstay-behind networks and terror then you make our work pretty easy:

I mean, what's next. Are you going to tell us Operation Condor didn't happen? Was Operation Phoenix a figment of our collective imaginations?

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 16 2015 3:37 utc | 275

Syria was being governed under a "state of emergency" for years because of the very real threat of special ops, provocations and destabilization from the "only democracy in the middle east". It was called fascist and dictatorship, a regime with closed borders. Now Franswa Oland has declared a state of emergency in France, hmmmmmmm? Has democracy just been killed in France? History is.....

Posted by: Fernando | Nov 16 2015 4:16 utc | 277

@277 fernando

Imperial repression comes home, eh? Yes you're right. It's those 'democracies', don't you think? 'Democracy' has evolved into a front for fascist dictatorship. As Oland and Obama well know.

@276 guest

If you say so, I'm sure it is! I'm rushing right over to pick up my copy now.

@275 Plenue is Eunelp spelt backwards, and you know what that stands for ...

Posted by: jfl | Nov 16 2015 9:12 utc | 278

It is notable how IS/ISIS has been conflated with Syria despite it Iraqi origin/leadership and multi-state scope of operations.

Some hardliners have pushed the notion that Assad is responsible for ISIS because ISIS grew from discontent caused by Assad.

The Paris attackers have helped by shouting "for Syria" (why not shout "Islamic State"?!?). It seems that they did so hoping for an anti-immigrant backlash.

That anti-immigrant backlash is the other shoe dropping in the "something must be done" campaign highlighted by b when the Syrian refugees crisis began.

The Assad must go! coalition will need all the immigrants returned to Syria if they hope to win Syrian the elections that Russia has proposed.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2015 19:57 utc | 279

A senior Iranian official says holding democratic elections in Syria is an effective solution to the four-and-a-half year conflict in the Arab country.

Posted by: bbbbb | Nov 16 2015 21:11 utc | 280


And here I thought it was the name of a Korean MP3 player.

Posted by: Plenue | Nov 16 2015 22:36 utc | 281

I thought I was done, but you left too much of a mess.

I don’t do groupthink. I have my own standards and values, thank you very much, and they seem substantially higher than some operative here.

Let’s see, it’s ISIL that’s beheading folks, as demanded by a theologian of late antiquity (Mohammed), and is issuing statements decrying the Crusaders and crusader states in their claims of the responsibility for the deaths of 200 innocents. But I’m the one with the medieval mindset for taking statements of intent seriously? I believe the Levant includes Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and Israel.

Oh -- eye for an eye is of course Sumerian, not medieval, from the Code of Hammurabi. Medieval would be knights jousting, iron maidens, and all the that Goth stuff.

Murder is murder. Wholesale or retail, public or private. Denouncing it in terms not shrill enough for your taste is not condoning it. Saying “it’s not a state, so we’re not worried” is condoning it. Drape it in whatever bullshit pieties you wish, and feel free to drag anyone you can pull along after you.

"Don’t worry, innocent victim. It wasn’t a state that killed you, so you’re not quite dead. Were you quite dead, survivors and history would be able to judge the killer that took your life. So stop yer belly-achin’ and butch it up. You should be glad to die for someone else cause!"

But my main point here is -- even your "states only" evasion is a little sloppy. You don’t want to be dissing the fine lads in the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant by pooh-poohing their little caliphate there, do you? I mean, they have like, a flag, a capital, coinage, and an army, taxes, transport ministry, and all that fun state paraphernalia.

So by the standard you declaimed, you condemn their executions, no?

And Hamas formally holds state power in Gaza. So you’ll need to condemn them, too. Boko Haram may not be stately enough, but not for a lack of trying. I'd condemn them to be on the safe side.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 17 2015 1:29 utc | 282





Stop embarrassing yourself and wasting our time.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 17 2015 3:48 utc | 283

I think a struck a nerve.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 17 2015 5:49 utc | 284

I was sure you were going to double down on your bull-shit rationale. Surprised, but sulking off in a huff works for me.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 17 2015 5:52 utc | 285

@279 Jackrabbit, logically they are shouting "this is for Syria" because they are saying their attack is revenge for what France is doing to Syria. you question "why not shout "Islamic State"?!?"Doesn't make sense nor does your conclusion that "It seems that they did so hoping for an anti-immigrant backlash." If you saw my comment I quoted what else was shouted: "It is the fault of Holland, he does not have to intervene in Syria!" (translated from "C’est la faute de Hollande, il n’a pas à intervenir en Syrie!" )
Please see my comment about this, the motive is obviously to get the French people to pressure their government to stop making them targets by insisting France's bombing of ISIS in Syria stop. My comment @224

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Nov 17 2015 6:47 utc | 286

Tom Murphy, jfl, Fast Freddie, Nerevta'43 & Copeland,

When I ask people how they KNOW that Russia invaded Crimea w tanks, they tell me
it's because the govt & all the media told them so.

And how do WE know there were suicide bombers who killed themselves?

Neretva'43, you noticed that the shootout outside the cafe looks more like keystone cops.

Did you notice the windows were still intact? Did you see the film of the forensic
investigation inside? When the windows are STILL intact?

The scene in the alley outside the theatre is not quite so phoney, but I find it troubling:

Did you LOOK at the photographic links I supplied of the Boston Marathon crisis actors?

The reason that the great mass of the American people don't know what you do is because
it sounds crazy-- until you LOOK w an open mind.

I know it sounds crazy. But there are reasons for staging a hoax. Next open link . . . .

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 17 2015 8:10 utc | 287

@276 guest

Thanks for that link to Terrorism in Western Europe: An Approach to NATO’s Secret Stay-Behind Armies, its very good. I noticed from the footnotes that Daniele Ganser has a whole book on the subject, NATO's Secret Armies - Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe. I'm eager to read that as well.

Who did kill the Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme back in '86? I mean, I think we know, but do we have the goods on them? Yet?

Talk about a Jekyll -> Hyde transformation ... Sweden's the casebook example.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 17 2015 11:18 utc | 288

plenue at 269 --

The answer would seem to be "no." Highlights of the Wikipedia on Gladio, noting the research of M. Ganser.

Peer Henrik Hansen, a scholar at Roskilde University, wrote... describing Ganser's work as "a journalistic book with a big spoonful of conspiracy theories" that "fails to present proof of and an in-depth explanation of the claimed conspiracy between USA, CIA, NATO and the European countries." Hansen also criticized Ganser for basing his "claim of the big conspiracy" off the US Army Field Manual 30-31B, a Cold War era hoax document.... Olav Riste of the Norwegian Institute for Defence Studies.... mentions several instances where his own research on the stay-behind network in Norway was twisted by Ganser and concludes that "A detailed refutation of the many unfounded allegations that Ganser accepts as historical findings would fill an entire book." In a later joint article with Leopoldo Nuti of the University of Rome, the two concluded that the book's "ambitious conclusions do not seem to be entirely corroborated by a sound evaluation of the sources available."

Ambitious, but no proof or in-depth explanation. No wonder Ganser is so popular here.

on a related point by Penelope at 287 --

The only way one could have epistemological certainty is if one saw them shot.

How did I find Crimea was not invaded with tanks? By a multiplicity of sources, and a healthy dose of skepticism, no YouTube involved. Reality is bad enough, no conspiracy embellishments required. If one is busy unearthing "secrets," you miss what's in plain sight.

How do you know what's on the YouTube is real? Google, etc. are all a part of the GovMilSecCom.Org.

Why this "conspiracy"? Towards exactly what end? Why this and not less risky means? TM objection at 224 is a very good one.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 17 2015 13:23 utc | 289

@287 p

I have no trouble believing they'd pull the hoaxes you describe if they were cheaper and they could get away with them ... but jeez, p, wouldn't we have heard from the families of the folks 'killed and maimed' at the Boston Marathon by now if this were all a hoax? Else prove there are/were no such people.

And why would Obama/CIA go to all the trouble of the hoax - with the much greater danger of being found out - when they can pull off the actual events at much less cost and much greater emotional effect using real people? Or is this the best of both worlds? Your guy Obama/Oland isn't really a murderer of innocent 'humanity' i.e. non-Islamic, real 'civilized people' ... he's just a hoaxer. Are the drone murders hoaxes too? all those wedding parties and kids? the 250,000 Syrians, or are they not in need of explanation, not being strikes against 'humanity'?

How about the names of those claimed to have been killed or maimed in Boston and some sort of proof that they never existed, or are alive and well and unmaimed and undead. I mean, yeah, we're pretty willing to be deceived about the how and the why and the by whom, but the what part seems an easy nut to crack. So disprove it, please. I haven't watched your videos. Who knows what they are, who they show, when and where they were taken. Some run down on the actual non-existence of, else the actual fate of the 'fake' victims, please.

I'm getting concerned about you p. You're getting stranger and stranger. Do you think that astronauts ever landed on the moon? Was the sphinx built by aliens from outer space? Don't take any of this personally, it could well be the case that it's not yourself but myownself that's getting stranger and stranger.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 17 2015 13:43 utc | 290

@289 - Do you look at the evidence to see what the truth is, or do you just take the word of book reviews of who knows what source?

Come on, Wikipedia is full of the same nonsense when they want to attack something... a string of references to scholarly reviews that fly in the face of actual evidence. That's how they do JFK, that's how they do the Ukrainian Famine. It's every right wing Wikipedia editors MO, rufus, and here you are doubling down on it.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 17 2015 13:51 utc | 291

Tom Murphy @286:

@224 you note that France began air strikes in Syria on September 27, 2015. But you fail to mention that the USA has been "bombing" Syria for over a year without a major attack by ISIS against the USA.

Anyone that believes that USA "bombing" has been purposely ineffective would also surmise that French "bombing" is the same. They are part of the same coalition. (And why does it matter to ISIS if it is US/UK/French/Jordanian/etc fighters?) Aljazera, on the latest French bombing:

...a media activist in Raqqa, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Al Jazeera on Tuesday that French air strikes had targeted abandoned ISIL bases in the suburbs of the city where there are no civilians or ISIL fighters. ...

"Russian air strikes have resulted in so much destruction. If these countries wanted to bomb the heartland of ISIL, they could have done so. But they still have not targeted the group's most important bases.

"This is what we do not understand. The targets bombed by French warplanes were mostly abandoned by ISIL fighters.

As for the notion that it was not a false flag because they were on a suicide mission: while the attackers must have fervently believed in their cause, we need to ask who influences and benefits from ISIS as an organization. Putin just informed the G20 that support and funding comes from 40 nations(!) - most of it likely to come from KSA and the Gulf States. Clearly, the US-led coalition must have already been well aware of this (but have looked the other way).

And, as I noted @202, US intelligence reports that warned of ineffective bombing and a growing threat from ISIS have been ignored or altered.

With that said, the fervor of the attackers makes it all the more curious why they would die shouting about Syria instead of what they believed in ("Islamic State"). Someone told them to shout that.

Lastly, provoking an anti-refugee/anti-immigrant response helps the terr0rists. But returning refugees/immigrants to Syria would also help to stuff the ballot box when elections occur there in 12-18 months.

And if the US-led coalition doesn't get a political process that allows them to do that ballot stuffing, then they can use Paris as a pretext to support the anti-Assad rebels or invade to secure the 'Sunni' lands now held by the rebels and ISIS.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 17 2015 14:30 utc | 292

@Penelope: I second jfl's concern.

I know you want to get at the truth. That is admirable. Some of your sources are very questionable.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 17 2015 14:37 utc | 293

@291 guest

I agree whole heartedly on wikipedia. Battle of the bans and the ones doing it for a living are always the only ones standing at the end, who form the cliques who police their different issues, their various areas of responsiblity. Wikipedia is the place to go to discover the presently enforcible orthodox opinion.

On the Gladio stuff, I'm new ... my 'conclusions' are questions ...

1. were there secret, stay-behind armies developed and maintained in the European countries after WWII?
2. were they centrally organized, by agents separate from the more or less democratic authorities in those countries?
3. is it possible that some of them were the authors of terrorist acts in their own and/or other countries in the ywars since WWII?

My tentative answers are ...

1. yeah
2. yeah
3. yeah

The last question is 'possible' so its weasely, I suppose. But this is not a traffic accident that's being investigated here, the vestiges were calculated to deceive from the getgo. Calculated to leave no trace, certainly no proof.

There may be no ironclad proof yet, but neither is there an ironclad refutation. The business about the 'form' - something the author referred to in the full book, apparently, which I've yet to read - is a red herring, it seems. It seems that he reports someone else's allegation that it came from the CIA, and that the author does not claim it to be otherwise than an allegation. The Army/CIA have complete control of their own doctrinaire output and are quite capable of tailoring 'special' or 'limited editions' of their stuff so that they can later disappear it and deny its ever existing ... they are in the lying business, after all.

So it's a probabalistic, not a determninistic, exercise ... we must judge according to the preponderence of the evidence, and the metric is reasonable doubt ... unless and until we gain the bastille itself, and with it the records of the ancien regime.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 17 2015 15:12 utc | 294


Reminds me of the question I've never seen a 9/11 'Truther' even attempt to answer: why, after going to all the trouble of engineering this impossibly complex and risky false flag attack, did the Bush administration not bother to fabricate evidence pointing directly at the targets they wanted to attack; ie Iraq and Iran? And for that matter, why fake a group of perpetrators who were predominantly Saudi Arabian, a close ally whose absence from any discussion of blame was painfully conspicuous? The whole affair reeks of a genuine attack that was used to justify unrelated plans that had long been in the pipeline.

Posted by: Plenue | Nov 17 2015 22:59 utc | 295

Plenue at 295 --

Once again, nice post. Very good questions.

Posted by: rufus magister | Nov 18 2015 0:18 utc | 296

@295 Eunelp

Reminds me of the question I've never seen a 9/11 'Truther' even attempt to answer:

1. why, after going to all the trouble of engineering this impossibly complex and risky false flag attack,
2. did the Bush administration not bother to fabricate evidence pointing directly at the targets they wanted to attack; ie Iraq and Iran? And
3. for that matter, why fake a group of perpetrators who were predominantly Saudi Arabian, a close ally whose absence from any discussion of blame was painfully conspicuous?
4. The whole affair reeks of a genuine attack that was used to justify unrelated plans that had long been in the pipeline.

Of course I dont know the answers to why the US deep state did what it did tactically, but my tentative view of what went down differs from yours ...

1. I don't believe the US deep state engineered the attack. I don't know, of course, but it could have been run by Mossad ... who have the expertise to have impersonated, one way or another, Arab principals and run the whole show, with or without help from dupes, willing or unwilling, within the US deep state.
2. Evidence was the one thing to be avoided. Once the radical means utilized to bring down the towers - murdering thousands of blameless Americans - became apparent to the sudden/unsudden beneficiaries of the act within the US deep state, all evidence had to be destroyed post haste.
3. The 'perps' were not fake in the literal sense. They were just working a plan whose authors were not who they supposed they were. They were theater in any case. The people who hijacked the planes were not th ones who brought down three skyscrapers and killed 3000+ innocent people.
4. Ah, we agree! The US deep state knew something was in the pipeline and planned to use it ... but what emerged was an embarassment of riches. The Prez, at least, was himself struck dumb, sitting on his chair reading about the little sheep or goat or whatever with his brothers and sisters.

We can give this one a rest. You're never going to come around, to believe your lyin' eyes rather than what you want to - feel you must - desperately cling to. I do wish that you and your fellow travelers could hear the truth ... the truth does set you free.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 18 2015 1:28 utc | 297

do yourself a favour and don't bother with the 2 loose bozos on this thread - rukus and plenue.. - complete waste of time..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2015 2:36 utc | 298

@214 penelope.. i know directly of someone whose child was murdered in sandy hook.. that was not a hoax.. sorry..

@222 laguere quote "Bataclan is Jewish-owned" it was for about 40 years or so up until approx 2 months before this event.. don't have a source to give you and am going on memory when i read it sometime inthe past 4 days..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2015 2:41 utc | 299


Actually I care about evidence. Something you have absolutely none of. Not that that stops you of course, because since you've already presupposed an explanation the lack of evidence is in fact evidence for you; our evil overlords obviously destroyed it all.

I must say it's amusing to be preached to by people who have nothing whatsoever to stand on.


Oh no! Not the bozo insult again!

Posted by: Plenue | Nov 18 2015 4:09 utc | 300

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