Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 26, 2015

Syria: The Turkish Russian Apology Contest

"The incident which happened two days ago in the skies over Syria defies common sense and international law. The plane was shot down over Syrian territory. And we have yet to receive an intelligible apology from Turkey on a top political level, " [the Russian President Putin] said.


"I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us," [the Turkish President Erdogan] said. "Those who violated our airspace are the ones who need to apologize. Our pilots and our armed forces, they simply fulfilled their duties, which consisted of responding to ... violations of the rules of engagement. I think this is the essence."

Erdogan did not take the exit ramp Putin offered. So who will win this contest?

U.S. Air Force General (ret) Charles J. Dunlap assesses that Russia wins the legal case. The Turkish shoot down of the Russian bomber was plainly illegal under international law as there was no threat to Turkey from the Russian plane. Even Turkey itself does not allege that the Russian bomber intended to attack that country. There was no self-defense situation that would allow such behavior.

Russia is taking all kinds of small and bigger economic measures to let Erdogan feel the consequences of attacking the Russian military in Syria:

The businessmen were selling their stuff at the Krasnodar agro trade exhibition illegally as they only held tourist visa. There are more such measures like official warnings to Russians not to go on vacation in Turkey and thorough safety controls of Turkish ships in Russian ports. More can follow.

Over all 55% of Turkey's gas consumption depends on Russian gas. A quarter of Turkey's electricity production runs on Russian gas. It is unlikely for now that Russia will use the leverage that comes with this Turkish energy dependency. But should another big incident happen "technical problems" with gas deliveries will come into play.

An overview of other economic and trade ties shows that Russia would probably lose some business in Turkey should the economic fight escalate. But the damage for the Turkish economy from losing business in Russia would be much bigger. The Turkish construction, agriculture and tourism industry would all lose their best or second best customer.

The Syrian army is intensifying the fight on its side of Syrian-Turkish border in the Latakia area where the Russian bomber was shot down. The "Turkmen" in that area have been joined by Erdogan's party youth "volunteers":

Emrah Çelik, a 27-year-old district organization member of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in northwestern Tekirdağ province who joined the Turkmen forces voluntarily, said the 2nd Coastal Division has been fighting against regime forces for the last seven months.

That people from his own political party fight in Syria gives Erdogan some interior political problems. He will be urged to fight on their side but a direct fight against Russian forces, without NATO backing, is too big a risk for him.

Russia says it 'destroyed' the rebels in that area:

"The terrorists operating in that area and other mysterious groups were destroyed," [military official Igor Konashenkov] said.

The Russian airforce also attacked (vid) other fortified "Turkmen" positions in Latakia and it again attacked truck convoys near Azaz next to the Turkish-Syrian border crossing. Some of those convoys carry "aid" in the name of the IHH, a Humanitarian Relief Foundation with ties to Erdogan's party. Such "aid" is measured as 7.62mm, 23mm or some other caliber.

Over the years various IHH "aid" trucks on their way to Syria had been stopped by Turkish police and were found to carry weapons and ammunition. Just today two leading Turkish journalist were arrested for publishing about such arm transfers. They were charged of being members of a terror organization, espionage and revealing confidential documents. A very stupid move by Erdogan as it highlights the very issue Russia is pocking at.

Syria will soon officially demand that all the "aid" trucks crossing the border be checked by United Nations personal to make sure that no weapons or ammunition are carried with them. Any truck not having been checked risks to be bombed.

The Kurdish YPG fighters are using the Russian air cover in the area and advance from the east along the border attacking the "moderate" rebels of al-Nusra and Ahrar al Sham within the corridor from Turkey down to Aleppo. This is precisely the area where Erdogan wanted to have his "safe zone". He had earlier threatened to bomb the Kurds should they move to close that corridor. But how can he do that now when Russia gives them air cover and has excellent air defense (see below) readily available? Should he invade? If he does there is no chance that NATO will stand with him.

All this looks like Putin is celebrating thanksgiving and having Turkey for lunch.

Additional Russian targets today were again oil storage (vid) and truck distribution points (vid) around Raqqa run by the Islamic State. Why has the U.S., flying there daily for the last 13 month, never attacked these obvious targets?

Russia activated one S-400 air defense system at its Hmeimim air base in Latakia. One  S-400 system consist of two radar vehicles, a command and control vehicle and up to twelve launcher vehicles with four missiles each. Parts of this system were already in Syria for at least two weeks. After additional transport arrivals (vid) it is now set to permanent combat readiness. With a range of 400 kilometers the system can cover west Syria and south Turkey as well as Lebanon and most of Israel. Another S-400 system is on its way to Syria. Also on their way are up to twelve additional fighter planes which will help the four fighters already deployed to fly air-to-air cover for the Russian ground bombers and helicopters. These fighters are modern and can match all modern "western" systems.

Seemingly completely detached from the real situation in Syria U.S. neocons have opened a concerted campaign for the eradication of the Sykes-Picot borders and the destruction of Syria and Iraq.

All three op-eds are merely fantasies and neither consider all actors on the ground nor the various motivations and aim of those actors. All three require large U.S. troop deployments into a fighting zone.

Why do they believe that the U.S. should decide border issues of Syria or Iraq? And, after the mess the U.S. created in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Yemen, why do they believe it could?

Posted by b on November 26, 2015 at 18:11 UTC | Permalink

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Posted by: b | Nov 27, 2015 12:39:47 AM | 91

If that is the case it was the wrong lesson. The logic would be that this attack was aimed at stopping Russian US cooperation. It did not work. Putin gave two options - one was the US not supervising its allies. I guess the US are giving mixed signals - ends up in a bind.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 27 2015 7:22 utc | 101

Wm Engdahl's got a new article" Israeli colonel caught fighting w ISIS.

He says what I've been saying: "neocon faction: Petraeus, Allen & Hillary." Israel, etc.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 27 2015 8:05 utc | 102


We entered the Twilight Zone in 1998 with the ZioBanker's Gramm-Leich-Bliley Wall Street Deregulation Coup, as the Zio-Media focused everyone's attention on that Zio-Girl and her Zio-Handler's Blue Dress, with the clear Shekhinah warning to members of Congress that they could be next, that's when you saw all the party boys like Rumsfeld line up with their arms raised at the prescribed angle.

Then when Congressional, SEC, DOD and IRS auditors found massive fraud and theft, $Ts worth, in the wake of that deregulation, the Chosen of God launched the Coup of Shekhinah II, pulling the (asbestos condemned) twin temples of the money changers down, along with the SEC and IRS investigation records destroyed in WTC7, and the DOD investigation records destroyed in the Pentagon, America's witness to miracle odds of 1 in 666,666,666,666,666.

We are so deep into the Twilight Zone now, with 1,000 US overseas military bases supporting a Zio-Central Bank in every nation except PRNK and Jomhuri ye Eslāmi ye Irān in a credit-debt liquidation of all the 'useless mouths to feed', you could not fit a playing card between these layers of Hell, and yet here we are on MoA, as every day, glibly twittering as though it were a tennis match.

Oh, well played, old boy! Ausgeseignit!!

Satan walks the Earth. Observe and listen. Learn or die.

Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 27 2015 9:19 utc | 103


P - We're playing Tiddly-Winks, while the Zio-Bankers and their Crypto-Zionist minions in Mil.Gov are playing 4D Mahjong.

We should be on our knees wailing, ripping out our hair and smashing our front teeth in with rocks in our rage and despair, ...but it's just so damned comfortable in these leather MoA easy-chairs.

Pass the brandy snifter, and tell the butler I'll have a Cohiba, what?

Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 27 2015 9:41 utc | 104


You're being trollish, or else blithely ignorant.

It's a 1,000 leagues between a contract and bank letter of credit, and strategic weapons production and delivery outside of the motherland, as you would know by following Bombadier, Boeing or Airbus sales.

Only America spills their IPR and Defense arms secrets freely around the globe to create war-worthy clones. It's just business to Great Shaytan.

Then if Syria falls and RU S300s are reverse-engineered in some dank underground DARPA lab, what is the incalculable loss in strategic defense that could not possibly compensate for a few unneeded sales.

Just ask Jonathan Pollard.

Posted by: Chipnik | Nov 27 2015 10:03 utc | 105

Seems Sultan Erdogan is a true idiot. He said he'll do it again if any aircraft violates Turkish airspace. Talk about rubbing salt in a wound. The Sultan Caliph simply doesn't know when to STFU!!!

He even went as far as suggesting Russia should be apologizing to Turkey. Don't laugh :)

Posted by: Zico | Nov 27 2015 10:04 utc | 106

Chipnik says:

...the Chosen of God launched the Coup of Shekhinah II, pulling the (asbestos condemned) twin temples of the money changers down...

well, as long as we're speculating about apogees of cosmic dementia, let's consider a rationally argued brand...

Posted by: john | Nov 27 2015 10:58 utc | 107

Chipnik @ various...
Are you one of those Yankees who've persuaded themselves that Vlad doesn't know what he's doing?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 27 2015 12:45 utc | 108

From the Hague, 26.

But the latest developments are in favour of the good guy. Isn’t that strange…

1. Downing Russian passenger jet
2. Assaults Paris
3. Downing Russian SU-24
4. Murdering pilot SU-24

These four items has – among other things- led to: . Increasing support in the West public opinion for Russia
. The real face of ISIS and its sponsors comes to surface.

Some ways back, I made the argument that the Paris attacks were, in a sense, contrary to IS interests, and played into Putin’s hands. As we have seen, at least as far as the *public* face goes, e.g., not exhaustive: Hollande explicitly joining anti-Daesh ‘coalition.’ Moves in Germany for a muted but steady ‘reconciliation’ with Russia were upped as well: Bildt, Steinmeier, Sigmar Gabriel, the left.

However, in another sense, the Paris attacks can be seen as instigated or at least partly organised, commandeered by IS / affiliated —> attacking abroad, outside, to *BRING IT ON* after being severely damaged by Russia. (In this direction, see an IS prop vid, the link is to the Daily Mail.)

It now surfaces that the ringleader of the Paris attacks was probably in contact to a Lybian branch?, which makes sense to me. (Link: information clearing house.) It looks very much like an op that was in between home-grown, organised (though the MSM make it out to be a major complex undertaking that is NOT the case, in terms or communications, organisation, money and arms) with perhaps some instigation, help, encouragement, links, from various quarters outside France. No matter who/how, IS would claim it.

With a tad of hindsight, the Paris attacks, at the point in time when they took place, seem roughly explicable, without even reffering to the attraction and sometimes inevitability of terror attacks, which have their own interior dynamic. See US school shootings, Breivik, and Joseph Conrad’s The Secret Agent.

Re. the Russian passenger plane downed in the Sinai. Whoever was responsible (assuming IS / affiliated / locals paid by imho), it was a direct attack on Russia, and perhaps hardened R’s resolve. R, in public, treated it as a ‘usual’ event (accidental, terroristic, to be investigated…) Note the Anglo MSM stating bang off (sic) it was a bomb, whereas R itself held back agressive discourse, retaliation, and so forth, and the MSM even published articles along the lines “Russia finally admits..!”

Lastly, the whole op misfired (sic), as nobody in the US+W cares about dead Russian kiddos, happy R tourists, etc. (Compare to MH17.) In short the anti-Russians were gleeful about someone, anyone, attacking R … but nothing else important followed.

As for the SU 24, it was a deliberate act by Turkey, vengeful against Russia (whether other parties like the US were involved set aside, Turkey nevertheless ordered it, if maybe not that specific attack), prompted by anger, rage, and conceived as a ‘minor but vital’ provocation which would draw support from NATO, the US: — a very serious miscalculation. Incredibly stupid.

Your last sentence leaves me puzzled? It just struck me, to the point of typing all this out. ;)

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 27 2015 14:47 utc | 109

Lone Wolf at 21. Concerning the sentence that mentions Russia not fulfilling its contracts…I too saw it in several places. This is from Forbes, describing the latest World Bank global biz. report (hardly pro-Russia .. see the Russia bashing that follows..):

Russia scored among the top 10 best performers globally in registering property (8) — better than the United States — and is fifth worldwide in enforcing contracts. By comparison, the U.S. is ranked 21.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 27 2015 14:50 utc | 110

@ crone 66, thanks for link. Connects some dots. Especially the Israeli/Kurds lovefeast.

@ psychohistorian 71 "The trolls do expose us to the delusions of some and paid obfuscation by others."

Trolls are some sort of compliment, imo. MOA must be hitting pretty big nerves.

The Paris attack has been a game changer. "Hit them there so they can't hit us here" meme has been debunked. I don't think Erdogan will use that 3B to stop the refugees, so just how much destabilization can Europe take?

At some point the EU will have to decide who is a more stable partner to supply gas and oil. Russia and friends....or the Zionists.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 27 2015 14:54 utc | 111

Black magic negro?He's just as much white,and from his actions,the dominant side.
The MSF hospital;I still think it was a revenge attack by friends of the shot down 130 from a few days to a week before.Which is kind of illuminated by the punishment of the fliers.If it was a targeting error,why would they punish the pilots?
What's up with the suspension of amateur athletics in Russia?Isn't the next Olympics in Moscow?No Russia athlete participants?????
And I read today that Putin said they would increase trade with Israel over Turkey.
If Putin can't see the animosity from the Zionists,we are all in trouble.Or is he holding his enemies closer?

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 27 2015 15:04 utc | 112

@ dahoit Re: "suspension of amateur athletics in Russia" Saw that. Petty payback.

As for Putin trading with Israel, wonder if Erdogan will cry foul.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 27 2015 15:16 utc | 113

@110 Who knows what went on behind the scenes with the s-300 deals. Perhaps Russia was promised something if they held off. Perhaps the promise was broken.

@11 Yesterday's trolling was 90% foff. He's an armchair genius who likes to come here to insult us lesser beings. One trick pony really.

Posted by: dh | Nov 27 2015 15:26 utc | 114

If the suspicion that the Su-24 downing was authorized by Obama himself or McInsane is correct, then it is clear that this operation was botched and backfired. It was botched because the plane came down in Syria and not in Turkey. The Su-24 fencer was returning from a bombing raid and thus was unarmed and posed no threat to Turkey. An unknown hostile team was hunting down the survivor pilot with specialized beacon locator equipment. They probably wanted to catch one of the pilots alive and use him to extort a guarantee that Turcomen would be left alone. Turkey became more isolated and NATO members showed signs of displeasure and unease with Turkey's actions. Instead of a NATO NFZ there is now a 4+1 NFZ in Northern Syria. It appears that Erdogan has shot himself in the foot.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 27 2015 16:27 utc | 115

@13 "Where is ISIS on this supposed map?" --

Well, on very close scrutiny there are smallish areas, somewhat wider along the Turkish border, that are id's by the graphics genius who did this map as "ISIS." In the palest of all possible blues. Perhaps my screen is rendering them this very pale powder blue, and perhaps the ISIS area are more visible on other screens, but what a poor color selection.

Or not. Given the purposes of said map.

Posted by: jawbone | Nov 27 2015 18:25 utc | 116

Re: Susan Sunflower @ 90 -- Ah, the SNAFU excuse. Indeed, amazingly multipled technological breakdowns! But...why didn't they respond to radio calls, messages from the MSF hospital? Etc. For about an hour....

It almost sounds like the all too common "technological" snafus that seem to regularly occur when US police who use deadly force have unexplained and seemingly unexplainable problems with their dash cams or body cams. with the Chicago cop who blasted 16 bullets into a 17 year old black kid walking away from him (until, of course the first one or two sent the kid to the ground), video from a nearby Burger King restaurant was viewed by other Chicago cops after the shooting and then the video somehow "disappeared."

Ya know, like, shit happens?


Also, note that those considered responsible for the MSF fiasco are mostly rather low level grunts.

Posted by: jawbone | Nov 27 2015 20:56 utc | 117

@115 People say that Obama was actually piloting the F16. Everyone knows he also stole all the budget for last year's road repairs in Tula and there was this widely known case when Obama spoiled all milk in Novgorod dairy factory.

Posted by: Cortez | Nov 27 2015 22:06 utc | 118

@115 sun tze.. i agree - thanks..

Posted by: james | Nov 27 2015 22:22 utc | 119

PavewayIV @ 91,

Thank you for that substantial response. I had no idea there were doubts concerning the "oil" on the Golan. Kirkuk to Haifa pipeline being completed mostly underground is a I spose possible. I don't see any reason they couldn't get along w ISIS-- given that they're already admitting some variants of the "rebels" to their field hospital. Also, Barzani, head of Iraq's regional Kurdish Area is Mossad. He and a few of his main cronies are now millionaires.

Humpn, lots of possibilities. Thanks again.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 28 2015 0:21 utc | 120

jfl @ 73,

I see that I have trod upon an idea that is precious to you. I'm sorry, but I don't edit information to fit my preconceptions. I was as active as anyone in trying to figure out who was responsible for the Sinai shootdown. It was only recently that I saw the website that raises the question of why the tons of aircraft parts that fell from the sky didn't make impact-holes in the sand, as seems to occur with other crashes. It is a valid question.

Your defense of your preconception is emotional, " If I were a Russian, a family member of one of those who did die, I'd wonder what possessed a nice young American girl to so blithely write off the murder of my parent/sibling/child"

It speaks well of you that you are filled w compassion at the death of innocents. I know it is hard to even CONSIDER that something could be false after you have felt an emotion about it, but if you are to be objective, you must be able to do that.

I challenge you to look at this sequence of Boston Bombing photos taken from an office overlooking where the crisis actors waited their turn for the photographer. Two did not even lie down until the photographer was ready for them, at which time one "became dead." We actually see one woman put on her "blood makeup." We see Cowboy Hat, lounging & waiting for the final event. Looked at carefully these are conclusive proof that the Boston Marathon bombing was a hoax.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 28 2015 0:23 utc | 121

Hello. This is a brilliant website and community. I've been reading for some time, but only just felt the need to add a comment of my own.

The discussion about the extent of factional infighting within the Western power structure is very interesting. Another piece of evidence supporting the "two factions theory", put forward by Penelope and Lisa, would be the Obama administration's public declarations of support for the IMF governance reforms (blocked by Congress). The 2010 reform package didn't appear to be seeking the end of the US' global leadership role; at least, not on paper.

Factional infighting certainly helps with any explanation of the glaring inconsistencies within the Western side's foreign policy decisions.

Alternatively, the inconsistencies could represent deliberate acts of sabotage, by elements within the Western power elites, to undermine American global power; by this I mean the transfer of power either to China, to supranational institutions controlled by said Western power elites, or both. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a different outcome to the one desired by Lisa's "new neo-cons", because the rise of China and Russia, rather than their subjugation, would be the ultimate aim.

I'm wary about bringing up the above angle, because I don't want to appear to be a "concern troll". Still, that line of thinking is popping up more regularly in the comments of alternative media sites, such as Zerohedge, so I think it's good to talk about it. I'd be interested to read the best arguments against high-level collusion between West and East, because I've wondered whether the idea may have been inserted into the alt-media as a kind of psyop; i.e. "We already control everything, so your dissent is useless".

On the other hand, the apparent links between the BRICS NDB and Western finance are very worrying, for those of us who hope that a future system of global governance might restrain the influence of private finance.

I really don't know what to believe, and I hope that my thoughts will be received in the spirit of the free exchange of ideas, rather than as an attempt to poison the well. I try my best to keep my overall position in a state of flux, gravitating more or less in a certain direction, but still able to look for evidence to support alternative theories. Recognising my relative inflexibility of opinion, prior to taking off the mainstream media goggles, has left me loathe to ever again become too fixed in my thinking; yet at the same time, I hope that I've not become too willing to change course!

One final thought: it's possible for all of the aforementioned scenarios to exist simultaneously, if long-term, high-level strategic deceptions and double-agents are taken into account. Unfortunately, while such strategic deceptions seem highly likely, at least from my perspective, it's nigh-impossible for the non-top-level-insider to provide hard evidence in support of their existence.

Posted by: Victori-ana | Nov 28 2015 0:41 utc | 122

@122 victori-ana... thanks for your intelligent well considered commentary! i've been reading about this chasm inside the usa for quite a while now, much prior to the past few threads on moa.. i tend to go with your last paragraph with emphasis on your very last line.. this is mostly why i observe commentary but don't have much to say to any of it..

i think you hit on a very important topic dear to my own interest - international finance - and one a few posters here at moa are also more interested in - psychohistorian, mrw, paulmeli and maybe a couple of posters are the posters i mostly associate with an interest in this.. i think it is paramount myself.. again, i don't have much to say on it, other to watch how it all unfolds.

my own personal interests, aside from international affairs ( which is why i follow moa) are music and astrology. i am on record stating i think the world is going down into a hole, or bottom for 2020.. the next few years will see a lot of changes on all these fronts.. i suspect a major war in it all, with much hardship an obvious result..i believe i stated a couple of months ago that saudi arabia is going to be a changed place.. i really don't have much concrete to add to this generalized comment. i do talk about some of this stuff at skyscript forum where i post.. my interest in following moa dove-tails with my interest in mundane astrology.. the definition i am able to grab off the net for this is : the astrology of worldly events, in contrast to the astrology of the individual: used especially in interpretations and forecasts involving politics, the stock market, weather, and disasters.

well, that is my condensed story and why i like coming here.. i hope you post more often!

Posted by: james | Nov 28 2015 1:07 utc | 123

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