Sergey Rudskoy, a top official with the Russian General Staff, condemned the attack on the Russian bomber in Syrian airspace by a Turkish fighter jet as “a severe violation of international law”. He stressed that the Su-24 was downed over the Syrian territory. The crash site was four kilometers away from the Turkish border, he said.
Rudskoy said the Russian warplane did not violate Turkish airspace. Additionally, according to the Hmeymim airfield radar, it was the Turkish fighter jet that actually entered Syrian airspace as it attacked the Russian bomber.
The Turkish fighter jet made no attempts to contact Russian pilots before attacking the bomber, Rudskoy added.http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=240975&cid=22&fromval=1&frid=22&seccatid=45&s1=1

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24 2015 19:53 utc | 3

On the previous post I called for Obama’s impeachment over his statement at the joint press conference with Hollande. There is not yet a complete transcript available on this that I could find. Here is the AP version, which I can verify to be something like what I heard Obama say in the excerpt on RT.com.
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama says the downing of a Russian warplane by Turkey points to an “ongoing problem” with Russia’s airstrikes in Syria.
Obama says Turkey “has a right to defend its territory and its airspace.” And he says that Russia is operating very close to the Turkish border as it goes after moderate opposition groups that are supported by Turkey and a wide range of countries.
*****
Why the AP did not use a complete quote is an interesting question, when that is done for the unobjectionable phrases. The objectionable one is of course that malarky about Russia going after moderate opposition groups that are supported by Turkey and a wide range of countries.
(I would have put half quotes around ‘supported by Turkey and a wide range of countries’ as I don’t know if Obama actually said that or whether it was a clarification the AP felt needed to be in there.)

Posted by: juliania | Nov 24 2015 20:13 utc | 5

Turkey will lose its control over the Kurdish territory, which has long been under the Turkish flag!

Posted by: ALAN | Nov 24 2015 20:27 utc | 7

Update:
* Rudskoy said the Russian warplane did not violate Turkish airspace. Additionally, according to the Hmeymim airfield radar, it was the Turkish fighter jet that actually entered Syrian airspace as it attacked the Russian bomber.
* Russia posted their own radar data, which shows jet wasnt in Turkish airspace.
It seems Turkey thinks “extended border zone” is Turkey’s territory, much like Israel in Golan.
* The Turkish fighter jet made no attempts to contact Russian pilots before attacking the bomber, Rudskoy added.
It seems Turkey has problem with math as well, they claim they contacted jet 10x over 5 minutes, but jets were supposedly in Turkish airspace for only 17 seconds (Turkey’s letter to UNSC). So either Turkey is lying (as underlined in Russias response), or they were spamming warnings to Russian jets while they were flying in Syrian airspace.
* Efforts of Rus MoD specialists to organize coopertion with Turkish party by emergency communiction link were unsuccessful.
Not only Turkey didnt really send warnings over Emergency channel like they claim, they werent responding to this channel either.
Update:
* Rudskoy said the Russian warplane did not violate Turkish airspace. Additionally, according to the Hmeymim airfield radar, it was the Turkish fighter jet that actually entered Syrian airspace as it attacked the Russian bomber.
* Russia posted their own radar data, which shows jet wasnt in Turkish airspace.
It seems Turkey thinks “extended border zone” is Turkey’s territory, much like Israel in Golan.
* The Turkish fighter jet made no attempts to contact Russian pilots before attacking the bomber, Rudskoy added.
It seems Turkey has problem with math as well, they claim they contacted jet 10x over 5 minutes, but jets were supposedly in Turkish airspace for only 17 seconds (Turkey’s letter to UNSC). So either Turkey is lying (as underlined in Russias response), or they were spamming warnings to Russian jets while they were flying in Syrian airspace.
* Efforts of Rus MoD specialists to organize coopertion with Turkish party by emergency communiction link were unsuccessful.
Not only Turkey didnt really send warnings over Emergency channel like they claim, they werent responding to this channel either.
https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/

Posted by: Harry | Nov 24 2015 20:45 utc | 9

Russia will now bring in more HW and target the Turkmen at the syrian border, and will shoot down any Turkish plane that attempts to intervene. I think puppet Erdogan made a terrible move, that will hasten Turkey’s failure in Syria

Posted by: bbbb | Nov 24 2015 20:46 utc | 11

Remember when in 2012 Syria shot down Turkey’s spy jet when it entered its air space?
Erdogan then said: Although the Turkish jet did briefly stray into Syrian airspace, “this kind of short-term border violation can never be regarded as a pretext for a hostile attack.”
While NATO said: its “a completely unacceptable act.”
Both Turkey and NATO in this context show an absolute hypocrisy, but as there is saying, nothing new under the sun.
https://goo.gl/VRDzaN

Posted by: Harry | Nov 24 2015 21:12 utc | 13

Can we have less of the hyperbole about world war 3

Posted by: James lake | Nov 24 2015 21:30 utc | 15

This thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_AEW%26C#/media/File:Boeing_737_AEW%26C_MESA_Peace_Eagle.jpg
allegedly guided F-16Cs to the Russian jet.
What I do not understand is Moskva is in the territorial water of Syria and it has 3D radar and all kind of EW systems and yet did nor warn the pilots. Maybe just prof more that the jet was in Syrian air space.

Posted by: Neretva’43 | Nov 24 2015 21:40 utc | 17

Obama on downing of Russian plane: “Turkey like every country has a right to defend its territory & its air space.”
SO…
Obama just gave Syria thumbs up to shoot down the next US warplane that violates SYRIAN territory & airspace

Posted by: ALAN | Nov 24 2015 22:02 utc | 19

I think Russia has pretty much ignored Turkey’s claimed extended airspace from the start, harry law. That was only to threaten Assad and justify Turkey shooting at his jets.
An interesting aspect of this nobody seems to mention is how on earth could Turkey have been warning a Russian jet that it was going to violate Turkish airspace TEN minutes before the fact. That would put the Russian jet something like 50 miles away from the border. Turkish warnings are pure butt-covering BS. Everyone monitors the VHF and UHF emergency frequencies and everyone knows Turkey didn’t ever broadcast any such warning.
Consider how unlikely it would be that a Turkish jet would be within a few miles of a Russian jet during the precise 17-second window it supposedly transited Turkish airspace. It’s not a coincidence – Turkey planned to intercept and shoot the Russian jet at the exact moment it (supposedly) violated Turkish airspace. It was an ambush, plain and simple. Turkey had to make it look like they were protecting their airspace, so they had to make sure to shoot the Sukhoi only when it was over Turkish soil. It didn’t use a long-range radar-guided air-to-air missile one would expect. That would have shown up on the Sukhoi’s instrumentation and warned the Russian pilots they were being targeted. Being ‘painted’ by another aircraft’s radar is usually warning enough to leave the area – the Russian pilots wouldn’t have ignored such an indication. Instead, the Turkish F-16 used an infrared heat-seeking missile at a relatively close range in that 17-second window. They would have had to plan and time such an attack before the F-16s ever took off. Anyone familiar with air combat can tell you that.
There is zero evidence that Turkey merely had some F-16s on patrol and suddenly came upon the Sukhoi violating their airspace. They made damn sure they were there at the right time, and that the Russian pilots had no idea that the F-16s were going to shoot them down. This was Erdogan’s feeble and cowardly attempt to stop the Russians from bombing his Turkmen al Nusra head-choppers and their villages in the Syrian mountains.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 24 2015 23:00 utc | 21

Now Russia will NEVER allow Assad to step down. Turkey has made a huge mistake. Putin can and will make Erdogan pay a steep price for this. The man was on thin ice before, the ice has just cracked.

Posted by: Fernando | Nov 24 2015 23:19 utc | 23

I’ve been blathering on the other thread. Considering the opposing interests of the two parties, would someone provide a logical justification for a Russian warplane to breach Turkish airspace?

Posted by: IhaveLittleToAdd | Nov 24 2015 23:32 utc | 25

IHaveLittleToAdd @25,
Whose reckoning of Turkish airspace, Turkey’s or the UN’s?

Posted by: Jonathan | Nov 24 2015 23:41 utc | 27

just to play along with this stupidity, lets say a russian plane actually went into turkey airspace – can the local bozos tell us the justification for shooting it down, or is this just par fa the course for the war party as presently represented by turkey? resolving this diplomatically would’ve been the first step if you were coming from a civilized place..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2015 23:47 utc | 29

@27
Good question, is the region definitively in Turkey’s dubious extended border, or was it within the historical border?

Posted by: IHaveLittletoAdd | Nov 24 2015 23:48 utc | 31

@25 Have you seen the map? That part of turkey was like a peninsula jutting into Syria.

Posted by: Massinissa | Nov 24 2015 23:49 utc | 33

@19
He says that but if Afghanistan, Pakistan or Yemen had anti air capability and started blowing up his drones he would start a hissy fit. And those dont even have people in them.

Posted by: Massinissa | Nov 24 2015 23:53 utc | 35

Sukhoi @36:

No honest person can claim the turks didn’t try to resolve the problem of Russians violating turk airspace.

They couldn’t show some restraint about a minor violation a day before scheduled talks with Lavrov?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2015 0:03 utc | 37

37
Oh i’m sure they could have had they wanted to.
Clearly they didn’t want to.

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 25 2015 0:06 utc | 39

Btw
About a year ago turk AF scrambled against Brit, a supposed “ally”, aircraft operating out of Cyprus
Clearly the Turks are very touchy about violations of turk airspace. It ain’t like the russians didnt know this before they decided to play “chicken”
If Turks will scramble against a supposed “ally” like the Brits, then what the f%ck were the Russians doing playing such a stupid game and thinking there would be no consequences?

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 25 2015 0:13 utc | 41

Sorry
I dont run a catch up service.
They have this thing called “the net” now. I hear its useful for that sort of stuff

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 25 2015 0:19 utc | 43

Yes indeedy, talking about the Turkish attitude toward airspace violations is clearly nothing but a deflection from talking about the consequences of a violation of turkish airspace
Truly genius-thinking there @44

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 25 2015 0:25 utc | 45

I maintain that Turkey has made it clear that they are both volatile and uninterested in having their airspace violated by Russian warplanes. It’s not a defense to say that they usually do not attack intruding aircraft. It is their sovereign territory and they are free to treat unwelcome guests as they choose. None of this makes their action appropriate or palatable. I would advise Russian airplanes to avoid this mistake in the future and strongly advise people who value their safety to egress from Syrian areas populated by Turkmen. Stupid decisions do not go unpunished when one has chips on the table, I may be wrong but that is the whole point of acting with foresight.

Posted by: IHaveLittleToAdd | Nov 25 2015 0:36 utc | 47

@46 Guest77
You have inadvertently made a great point. China has made it clear they do not want US warships patrolling the South China Sea, thus they could take military action if a US ship were within their territorial waters. The problem is that the US is a very powerful country and China has assets exposed that would be ripe for retaliation. The point is that these decisions are not made in a vacuum, but are married to power, risk, and justification.
If the jet was in Turkish airspace, they had a right and precedent based on their overtures to shoot it down. The problem, as above, is that Russia is a very powerful country with many opportunities to take revenge.

Posted by: IHaveLittletoAdd | Nov 25 2015 0:46 utc | 49

@48
Agreed twofold. Totally useless discussion if there was no violation. And, Turkish planes in Syria are fair game, seems like Syria would be happy to deputize Russia to act as their proxy in that regard.
@50 Hague
Thanks, very insightful.

Posted by: IHaveLittletoAdd | Nov 25 2015 0:57 utc | 51

38
No
Your mom did

Posted by: Sukhoi | Nov 25 2015 1:17 utc | 53

Turkey had unofficially encroached into a 5 kilometer buffer zone in Syria in the summer of 2012 treating it like its own airspace and territory. As the RuAF bombardment of the official Syria-Turkey border intensified last week, Turkey loudly protested against what it saw as Russian jets hitting Turkmen near the border just last Friday. Then Turkey AF declared that they will not make any difference in treating violations of “their” airspace regardless of aircraft flags. Turkey shots down a Su-24 RuAF ground attack jet well within Syrian airspace Oops!. This is like a Su-27 shotting down an A-10 warhog. Russia deploys its largest missile cruiser to the coast near the border. It is defended with an S-300 SAM battery equivalent on board and will cause a virtual no fly zone for Turkish planes. Furthermore, Russia will escort bomber raids with air to air fighter planes going forward. This is a Judo move. Putin can now arm the Kurds with impunity. Well armed and protected Kurds can destabilize and threaten Turkey’s territorial integrity. Opposition leader questions the Russian plane downing. Knowing the risks, Turkey’s Erdogan downplays the incident internally for domestic politics. Erdogan calls the opposition leader for private talks. But Turkey escalates it to convene NATO emergency meeting and the UNSC for rallying international support. NATO is split with some members even giving cold shoulder to Turkey. Analyzing the actions of the Turkish government, this act of bravado surely looks as desperation. Russia will play cool until it can safely repatriate thousands of Russians currently in Turkey like it did in Egypt. Turkey stands to lose lucrative tourism and trade with Russia as a minimum. Turkey government links to ISIS and ISIL will be publicly exposed. Expect a backlash from Europeans weary of paying extortion money to Turkey for not exporting its Syrian refugees.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Nov 25 2015 1:43 utc | 55

@54
Thanks… affirmation of what a few others have said. I’m so thankful that Putin is so centered, calm and calculating.

Posted by: crone | Nov 25 2015 2:14 utc | 57

It took the deaths of several Russian military people to finally expose to the world the fundamental fact that Turkey fully supports the terrorists who recently bombed a Russian airliner, made several bombing attacks in Lebanon, and attacked several targets in Paris, as the oil flows North and supplies go South into and out of Turkey–and in no way can Erdogan say he knows nothing about those activities. Turkey’s a member of NATO, so since turkey’s been supporting Daessh for 3+ years, NATO is also supplying its support as it cannot say it knows nothing–and that would certainly include the Outlaw US Empire: There cannot be any Sgt. Schultz Excuses Anymore!!! Those unwilling to see are those allied with Daesh and its sponsors. All are now subject to the newest UNSC Resolution and can expect to pay the price for their behavior. But will France really join with Russia and China in the UNSC?

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2015 2:17 utc | 59

NATO wants to provoke Russia into a war with turkey for this reason as last chance to stop the allies advance in Syria, I don’t think Russia, Russia will fall for this.
“By controlling the straits Turkey controls most of the supply of our military group in Syria. Montreux Convention makes the peacetime regime of the straits free for all the Black Sea countries, but in time of war Turkey gets the legal right to block the straits to the enemies and open them to the allies.”

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 25 2015 2:31 utc | 61

Paul Craig Roberts:
If the attack was cleared with Washington, was Obama bypassed by the neocons who control his government, or is Obama himself complicit? Clearly the neoconservatives are disturbed by the French president’s call for unity with Russia against ISIL and easily could have used their connections to Turkey to stage an event that Washington can use to prevent cooperation with Russia.
Washington’s complicity is certainly indicated, but it is not completely out of the question that the well-placed Turks who are purchasing oil from ISIL took revenge against Russia for destroying their oil tanker investments and profitable business. But if the attack has a private or semi-private origin in connections between gangsters and military, would Turkey’s president have defended the shoot-down on such spurious grounds as “national defense”? No one can believe that one Russian jet is a threat to Turkey’s security.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/11/25/turkey-has-destroyed-russia-hope-western-cooperation-paul-craig-roberts.html
—
—From Scott’s sitrep @ Saker:
German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel called Turkish actions unpredictable.
“This incident shows for the first time that we are to dealing with an actor who is unpredictable according to statements from various parts of the region – that is not Russia, that is Turkey,” Gabriel said, as cited by DPA news agency. He added that Turkey was playing “a complicated role” in the Syrian conflict.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 25 2015 2:39 utc | 63

bbbb @ 12
Lone Wolf @ 55,
Erdogan won’t be dumping migrants or refugees on EU because he has a very well-paid deal w them to keep them in Turkey & this is his “Get into EU Free” card. Everyone else wants out, but he is dumb enough to want IN. With his “I’m the dictator here” personality I can’t imagine how he could possibly endure the regimentation.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 25 2015 2:45 utc | 65

Turkish intelligence chief: ISIS is a reality and we must stop Putin from crushing the Islamic revolution

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State; therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and thwart Vladimir Putin’s plans to crush Syrian Islamist revolutionaries,” – Anadolu News Agency quoted Mr. Fidan as saying on Sunday.
Fidan further added that in order to deal with the vast number of foreign Jihadists craving to travel to Syria, it is imperative that ISIS must set up a consulate or at least a political office in Istanbul. He underlined that it is Turkey’s firm belief to provide medical care for all injured people fleeing Russian ruthless airstrikes regardless of their political or religious affiliation.

Erdogan’s daughter runs a hospital for Da’esh wounded, Erdogan’s son fences Da’esh oil stolen from Syria, Obama & Oland defend Erdogan … could it be any more obvious just whose army Da’esh actually is?
I guess now we see if US/EU/NATO all own up, as Turkey has, to their step-child Da’esh, and declare war, as Turkey has, on Russia?
No way do I see Turkey as the ‘loose cannon’ in all this. They’re backed by US/EU/NATO. The war is on two fronts now, in Syria and in Ukraine in earnest, where US/EU/NATO and Al-CIAduh/Da’esh North – the ‘Crimean Tatars’ – are now operating independently of the so-called government.
Have those murdered and their familes been so quickly dismissed in Paris? Can Penelope’s hoax theory actually be true?
Or will Paris and Berlin rise up against Oland/Merkel/Obama/Erdogan? I’m afraid I’ve written off my fellow Americans entirely. I imagine the Turks will rise against Erdogan before we Americans will rise against Obama.
It’s true that we need reasoned analysis and oughtn’t be crying WWIII like wolf. But events keep leading to larger and larger war.

Posted by: jfl | Nov 25 2015 2:51 utc | 67

@Jackrabbit@37
They couldn’t show some restraint about a minor violation a day before scheduled talks with Lavrov?
Why should have they? Theirs was a message to Russia and the 4+1, and the day of delivery was chosen carefully, one day after Putin’s visit to Iran, during Jordan’s king visit to Russia, and, slap in the face, a day before Lavrov’s scheduled visit to address issues such as the alleged violation of borders.
As I said earlier, Turkey’s noise about the so-called “Turkmen,” protests to the Russian envoy, and macho-man threats, were all part of an orchestrated choreography, aimed precisely at the downing of a Russian plane. I fully agree with b at the former thread who aptly called it an ambush, and with PavewayIV@21, “it was an ambush pure and simple.”
The message and its delivery were carefully studied, no doubt. Now is time for the Russians to study their response, time for reckoning.
And payback is always a bitch.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 25 2015 2:55 utc | 69

@45 – The consequences are ALL that matter now, and Russia will likely respond at a time and place of its choosing. I guess until that time you can keep splitting hairs over who did what

Posted by: bbbb | Nov 25 2015 3:11 utc | 71

Siemens – Sukhoi version 2..
@54 Sun Tzu.. thanks for your post..
@58 karlof1.. that is much as i see it too..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2015 3:35 utc | 73

@IHaveALittleToAdd: “You have inadvertently made a great point. China has made it clear they do not want US warships patrolling the South China Sea, thus they could take military action if a US ship were within their territorial waters. The problem is that the US is a very powerful country and China has assets exposed that would be ripe for retaliation. The point is that these decisions are not made in a vacuum, but are married to power, risk, and justification.”
I see your point – but I’m making a different one. See, you’re making the point that – assuming the Turks are telling the truth – Turkey legally is within its rights. That is maybe so, again if they’re telling the truth entirely (I wouldn’t bet on that) but I’m making a point that actually factors in justice and human emotion.
Here just two days ago, Russia was bombing ISIS positions with “For Paris” written on their bombs and today Turkey is shooting down their jets for a hairs width of a navigational error and hiding behind legalistic nonsense. No one is going to say “well, that sounds legitimate!”. In fact, Erodgan has just again lowered himself in the esteem of the people of the West who actually do want to fight terror.
Slowly but surely, people are seeing once popular Erdogan as a killer, a dictator, and an enabler of the terrorists. That’s the point, not wether a Russian jet zipped through Turkish airspace for five seconds.
The puny attempt to rationalize this attack with some esoteric legal deflection is just that.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 3:47 utc | 75

This article was written by Mike Whitney on 10/9, and is kinda interesting in retrospect.
by MIKE WHITNEY
Russia doesn’t want to fight a war with Turkey, so Russian generals devised a simple, but effective plan to discourage Turkey from taking any action that could lead to a clash between the two nations.
Last week, Russian warplanes intruded into Turkish airspace twice. Both incidents caused consternation in Ankara and send Turkish leaders into a furor. On both occasions, officials in Moscow politely apologized for the incursions claiming they were unintentional (“navigational errors”) and that they would try to avoid similar intrusions in the future.
Then there was a third incident, a more serious incident, that was not a mistake. It was clearly intended to send a message to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Here’s a short summary of what happened from an article at the World Socialist Web Site:
“Turkish officials claimed a third incident on Monday, when an unidentified MiG-29 fighter jet locked its radar for four and a half minutes on eight Turkish F-16 jets that were on patrol on their side of the border, in apparent preparation to open fire.” (“US, NATO step up threats to Russia over Syria“, World Socialist Web Site)
This was no mistake. The only time a fighter pilot adopts these protocols is when he plans to take down an enemy plane. This was a message, and while it might have been over-the-heads of the politicians and the media but, I assure you, every general in the Turkish High-Command knows what’s it means. This is a wake-up call. Moscow is indicating that there’s a new sheriff in town and that Turkey had better behave itself or there’s going to be trouble. There’s not going to be any US-Turkey no-fly zone over North Syria, there’s not going to be any aerial attacks on Syrian sites from the Turkish side of the border, and there certainly is not going to be any ground invasion of Turkish troops into Syria. The Russian Aerospace Defence Forces now control the skies over Syria and they are determined to defend Syria’s sovereign borders. That’s the message. Period.
This is a good example of how “preemption” can actually prevent conflicts rather than starting them.
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=75b_1444441041#CFcHKAyEh3Ogg2ZY.99

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 25 2015 4:04 utc | 77

@Sukhoi “Should the US have attacked the Chinese in that instance? Well yes, according to you.”
In case you’ve forgotten – you’re the one defending the use of dangerous military actions on very flimsy pretexts, not me. I’m merely using the anecdote to point out the hypocrisy of the “exceptional nation” that you’re laying down a propaganda smokescreen for. A smoke screen you just coincidentally happen to be laying on this day of controversial actions where it is very much needed!
There’s one fact that those who defend this cravem aren’t going to be able to get around, and that’s that this is clearly another escalation coming from NATO. The citizens of the West have made it absolutely clear that they want no part of another Middle Eastern war – yet here we find our “leaders” not only dragging us into one, but dragging us into one that involves Russia, Iran, and probably China.
If the Western elite thinks that their populations are imbecilic enough to weep for the people killed in an ISIS attack in France on one day, and then cheer an attack on the Russians fighting ISIS the next – I think they’re making a big mistake. Those lies that the Iraq War was based on are burned into our memories. The facts of al Qaeda’s provenance are well known. People are well aware that our “allies” in the region are criminal regimes responsible for the rise of ISIS. As a result, our “leaders” have never been less trusted. Though most probably don’t know exactly all the details of what’s going on in Syria, they certainly knows that whatever is going on there is not quite right. They’ aren’t buying this “Assad Must Go!” nonsense – most especially when it means boots on the ground. That hesitation and distrust was expressed loudly when the people of the US and UK said NO the proposed 2013 attack on Syria after the “chemical weapons attack”.
And no amount of DoD sockpuppets can change the fact that people are sick of war and sick of our “leaders” ambivalent stance towards Middle Eastern terrorism. Especially when their points are as dumb as these.
—————
Your defense may have been that you only put the tip in, but sadly for you that’s balls deep.
BTW, do you get paid extra for mom rape jokes? Keep it classy.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 4:16 utc | 79

@Harry – In his “defense” (not sure why I’m bothering) “IHaveLittleToAdd” has been here for a while. Not so for the others though. They’re clearly here to lay the propaganda line because of the recent shootdown.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 4:20 utc | 81

Bhadrakumar at Asia Times on Putin’s pivot to Iran.
Putin’s pivot to Iran is a strategic decision

[…] Clearly, a Russian-Iranian rift over Assad’s fate is not on the cards. On the fundamental principle that a future government in Syria ought to be elected by the people of that country through free democratic choice, Moscow and Tehran are unwilling to compromise. Obama’s diplomatic strategy on Syria is in shambles. Putin even took a dig at Obama that America should not fear the prospect of democratic elections in Syria.
Looking ahead, the US stance that Russia’s participation in an international coalition against the Islamic State is linked to its “strategic adjustment” over Assad’s fate is likely to become untenable. Obama expected Putin to dump Assad. But Putin has made it clear that it is not for Russia to dictate the terms of a settlement in Syria. On the other hand, Obama will be on shaky ground if he continues to caricature the war against the IS in Clausewitzean terms as ‘politics by other means’.
However, the most extraordinary thing about Putin’s visit to Tehran is that it takes the veil off a strategic decision taken by the Kremlin to elevate Russia-Iran relationship to a qualitatively new level. Putin had deputed one of his most trusted aides to Tehran last week to choreograph the new trajectory for the bilateral relationship with Iran, which is suffused with solid strategic content of a kind that the West cannot hope to match. Interestingly, Putin’s choice fell on Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin to undertake this mission, a Kremlin politician whom Washington loves to hate and is on the State Department’s ‘black list’ for visa.
Put differently, Russia intends to outstrip the western countries scrambling for a share of the Iranian pie by offering to Tehran a vastly superior relationship that is attuned to its sense of destiny as an emerging power. The ideas that Rogozin projected to the Iranian interlocutors whom he met in Tehran last week included proposals regarding space and satellite cooperation – remote sensing satellites and space navigation systems, GLONASS system and satellite-assisted navigation and mapping – defence production, co-production of Sukhoi Superjets in Iran, establishment of a free trade zone in Iran by the Eurasian Economic Union and so on.
Significantly, in the immediate run-up to Putin’s visit to Tehran, reports began appearing that Russia has started the delivery of the S-300 missile system to Iran. The Russian reports mentioned that the deal involves “about 300” units of the missile system, which of course will go a long way to strengthen Iran’s air defense even as the nuclear deal signed in July is advancing to the tricky implementation stage.
Suffice it to say, the Kremlin appears to have reached the conclusion after careful consideration – and an off-and-on dalliance with Saudi Arabia – that Iran is key to stabilizing the Middle East and is a pivotal regional power for Russia. It should not be overlooked that the Russian official media have openly discussed a possible Saudi and/or Qatari hand in the crash of the Russian Metrojet Flight 9268 in the Sinai on October 31.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 25 2015 4:21 utc | 83

from turkeys zaman press “Despite being warned 10 times in five minutes because it was coming towards our border, it insisted on continuing its violation. This plane was downed in an intervention by our F-16s,” Erdoğan said in a speech in Ankara, adding the actions were fully in line with Turkey’s rules of engagement….
and further down..”Erdoğan also said that Turkey, together with its allies, would soon realize a “humanitarian safe zone” between Syria’s Jarablus and the Mediterranean coast.”

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2015 4:36 utc | 85

Turkey’s new darlings have a strangely familiar stench about them…

Posted by: Vintage Red | Nov 25 2015 4:56 utc | 87

@87 Interesting and important. I never ever understood how exactly the United States expected a 180 degree turn in the US-Iran relationship just by signing the nuclear agreement. After a decade of threatening war? After a decade where the Iran and the US faced off in more and more local conflicts? After a decade of the US letting its allies run rampant and antagonize Iran in every way? No, I never could see it. Russia and Iran are firm allies. And this phenomenon is, in terms of geopolitics, a huge event that has never occurred before (far as I know). Since the days of the Czar the West has been seeking to keep Russia for making a formal alliance with a unified, independent Iran. And now it has happened.
The final irony is that the US supported the Islamists in Iran when it was clear the Shah was sick and on his way out, knowing that the Islamists could never align themselves with the USSR. But with the collapse of the USSR, that strategy has now completely obsolete.
@91 – Thanks for that, I love the historical connections. Just like the Ukrainian fascists we’re supporting, all of the CIA-US connections go back – through the Gehlen Org – to the Nazi collaborators. No shame about it anymore, the US is wedded to the strategy first developed by American fascists and the surrendering Nazi high command in the 1940s – an alliance against the USSR. With the USSR now obviously gone, its proof that “anti-communism” was a lie covering for the real strategy – hyper-imperialism aimed at resubjugating the Third World (including Eastern Europe). Amazing that even the Nudelman’s, Kagan’s, and Friedman’s of the world have not just made peace with it, but are an active component of it. But hey, times change and who isn’t overjoyed at making the “honorary Aryan” cut…

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 5:24 utc | 89

At this point, the Russians (all of them) are not happy. Something ugly will happen to Turkey. Probably some stealthy false flag/psy-op thingie. But rather harsh. Europe is probably being flooded with Russians.
The game players are in high gear.
(Also the trolls here. Stealth trolls can destroy anything.)

Posted by: blues | Nov 25 2015 5:44 utc | 91

Since this is an open thread- I’d like to ask “”b and “somebody” and any other German citizens that might be here the following question: is the history of the Gehlen Organization well known and accepted?
Its origins as the Nazi intelligence apparatus on the Eastern Front, to becoming in whole the US CIA’s Department of Russian and Eastern European Affairs, and finally becoming the West German Intelligence Organization is, to me, one of the most important threads in historical era that most informs our own – that of the Cold War.
Or is this history treated, as it is in the US, as a sort of dirty secret?
Thanks
—-
@91 – “The main body of the division surrendered near Padua in May 1945 and was dispatched to Taranto. In accordance with the agreements signed by the British and Americans at the Yalta Conference, the soldiers were repatriated. According to a later witness, they received a twenty-year sentence of slave labor.”
Check out the source on that one, an ultra-right “Yalta was the world’s greatest crime!” screed. But even that lie is tame by today’s standards. Now we’d here how they were all murdered by Stalin in some Polish far-right “history” book.
I did actually pick up Grover Furr’s “Blood Lies” (the book that claims that Timothy Snyder’s influential anti-communist “Bloodlands” is full of lies and misrepresentations). I’d recommend it. Now, Furr makes his political views clear and he has strong views, though perhaps there’s something to be said for this – certainly better than to be hiding them and pretending to be “unbiased” “Yale professor” like Snyder. But Furr’s scholarship is pretty flawless and most importantly it is 100% transparent and right there. He actually provides reprints of all of the primary sources he discusses (its a real thick book…).
It’s amazing what he found in Timothy Snyder’s work – Snyder uses all of these obscure Polish and Ukrainian sources, and does the typical job of making every “maybe” a “certainty” by leaving out key segments in the primary sources. Furr just goes down Snyder’s claims one by one, presenting Snyder’s text and the primary text and notes the dishonesty. Its all there in black and white. It’s quite an amazing presentation IMHO.
Stalin shouldn’t be compared to Hitler, there’s just no comparison. End of story. But that’ll never do for the Ministry of Truth of course. How could it? After all, the only excuse for all of the USA’s shady connections with the children of the Nazi remnants are that Stalin was such a monster we just had to get in bed with the Hitlerites. And from there, of course, we don’t want to offend our allies – which as we’ve seen even show their ugly face in Syria not to mention the Ukraine – becuase they still fondly recall that Nazi collaborating history. So best thing to do is just make Stalin worse than Hitler. In fact, as long as the Israelis seem to be cool with it (and since the Jabotinsky faction seems to have gained preemminance in that country) we can even rehabilitate Hitler just a smidge. We’ll keep him bad, but not as bad as Stalin! Hell, we might even get away with saying Stalin was going to attack Germany, and that Hitler really had no choice!
Oh! How the times and the crimes have changed….

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 5:59 utc | 93

@96 – I’d be interested to hear the discussions about these raids between the Russians, Syrians and Hezbollah, that’s for sure. Can the Russians really let that kind of stuff go on unanswered without creating some friction? Though, I suppose Syria has never itself taken the bait either. It just seems to be a fact of life that the settler state murders with impunity. Though I would imagine that the war in Syria and the building up of Hezbollah means this is the beginning of the end of that situation…
I seem to recall, though, from some earlier Israeli raids – weren’t they firing long range missiles from inside Israeli airspace? If so, it is difficult for the Russians to prevent such attacks without going on the offensive and shooting down Israeli planes in the airspace of settler state itself.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 25 2015 6:10 utc | 95

@jfl@96
Times of Israel…”According to unconfirmed reports…”…”A report by Al-Souria Net, a pro-opposition outlet…”
Mmmmm….nothing at Al Manar TV, nothing at SANA, nothing at Al Masdar News, nothing at Fars News…I recently debunked another neozionist attack on Hezbollah, of the same characteristics: “Unconfirmed Syrian media reports…”
I don’t think this is different, it won’t fly.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 25 2015 6:27 utc | 97

that and a good overview from this article..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2015 6:42 utc | 99