Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 31, 2015

Islamic State Plane Attack Claim Could Be Helpful

Today a Russian civil airliner came down over the Sinai peninsula. All 224 on board of the Airbus A-320 were killed. The Islamic State in Sinai claims to have "brought down" the plane.

That is unlikely. According to flight radar data the plane was flying at 30,000 feet when whatever happened occurred. IS in Sinai has anti-air weapons but those reach no higher than 10,000 feet. It is in principle possible that IS infiltrated the airport at the Egyptian tourist resort Sharm el-Sheikh where the plane was was coming from and smuggled someone on board. But it is unlikely. The usual travel arrangements for Sharm el-Sheikh are group travels where anyone not belonging to a group would be suspicious. Security at Sharm el-Sheikh is usually tight. There is also a report that preliminary investigations point to a technical failure.

But IS claimed responsibility and the fact that it did can be used. How about a salvo of cruise missile on "IS targets" in Syria and Iraq? No one could really complain now if some of those cruise missiles hit IS ... or something else ...

But whatever. That IS claims to have taken down an airliner shows that it has intent to do such. That is then the end of stupid arguments to work with IS or to let it live and prosper. The claim will also the end to any attempt to give serious air defense weapons to "insurgents" in Syria. The weapons could easily end up in al-Qaeda or IS hands and it is now clear what they would be doing with them. 

Posted by b on October 31, 2015 at 15:52 UTC | Permalink

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Yes, the infrastructure whereby Daesh can smuggle oil would be my target of choice.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 31 2015 16:20 utc | 1

Someone wants Russians to double down on their war effort in Syria. Russian soldiers getting killed each day may do the trick re Putin's 90% favorability score.

Posted by: s | Oct 31 2015 16:25 utc | 2

The purchase of US Presidential candidates by APAIC has officially kicked off.

" Top Israeli Firster Billionaire Purchases US Presidential Candidate Marco Rubio "

Posted by: c | Oct 31 2015 16:34 utc | 3

The Egyptian army must move more actively to clean up the Sinai Peninsula from the terrorism

Posted by: ALAN | Oct 31 2015 16:36 utc | 4

"Obviously, I abhor ISIS and don’t want to see it spread or take over Iraq." -T. Friedman

Obviously. It goes without saying. Surely no one doubts the moral and ethical credentials - indeed his love for the Iraqi people - of Tom "Suck It" Freidman.

When Petreaus suggested the alliance with JAN, he was attacked vigorously. Yet here again we see another trial ballon being floated for coming to terms with the fanatics in Syria and Iraq. Someone wants this badly - though the American people have rejected it again and again and again.

Interesting new reasoning: "why fight ISIS when the Shia militia are no better" he claims. That's new, I at least haven't heard that equivalency made before. The American people will need to be instructed just as to how awful the Shia militia are (cue CNN), because this just sounds like the latest excuse to dilly dally on ISIS and to push away Russia's offer for a coalition.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 31 2015 16:40 utc | 5

Yeah, maybe one of those 'condum baloon bombs' hit something? Whatever.

Posted by: Cathryn Mataga | Oct 31 2015 16:43 utc | 6

re 4

The Egyptian army must move more actively to clean up the Sinai Peninsula from the terrorism
Never happen. That's the problem - conquer a country militarily, as Sisi did, and you don't conquer all of it. There are always bits where people don't like what you did, and continue to help opposition.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 31 2015 16:45 utc | 7

Who runs security at Sharm El-Sheikh Airport, which used to be IAF base Orita? Surely the Israelis are at least "advisors".

The city itself seems to be Israel-proofed too, if you can go by the travel promos:

New surveillance procedures include monitoring cameras fixed at all the entrances and exits of Sharm El Sheikh as well as in all streets and gathering places. The cameras are connected with a main operation units where they are monitored real-time by trained security staff to insure comprehensive safety measures.
Security has been intensified on all streets, beaches and the ways leading to the city with additional security personnel.

Electronic gates will be fixed at all entrance and exit points using gamma ray technology. Gamma ray technology is used to screen larger objects, such as cars and trucks (it is also used for examining ocean containers, for example) that are densely loaded and the technology is capable of detecting suspected contraband, weapons and other potentially dangerous goods. It gives its operators an image similar in many ways to an X-ray, but is safer than X-rays. This sophisticated (and rather expensive) equipment is also capable of outputting spectrum graphs that can detect various elements, including radioactive materials.

New fixed and movable check points will be spread throughout the Sharm region, with specific equipment for examining all cars coming through the outlets for explosive devices and other weapons. Areas to be secured in this manner not only include the direct approaches to Sharm el-Sheikh, but also remote regions, including mountain areas near Sharm.

Whaaaa?! Who would even vacation in such an environment?

Posted by: Ananymus | Oct 31 2015 16:46 utc | 8

thanks b.. i am very sorry to hear of the loss of innocent lives here.

"It is in principle possible that IS infiltrated the airport at the Egyptian tourist resort Sharm el-Sheikh where the plane was was coming from and smuggled someone on board."

Posted by: james | Oct 31 2015 16:48 utc | 9

"Someone", or, something.

Posted by: Ananymus | Oct 31 2015 16:53 utc | 10

b: Did you consider possibility of bomb placed in luggage?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 31 2015 16:54 utc | 11

So they now have their own IT department, if centrifuges can be hacked, I would think a plane would be a piece of cake, food for thought:

Activists ask Russian law enforcers to step up protection against ISIS hackers

The official inquiry to the Interior Ministry and the Federal Security Service was prepared by Dmitry Chugunov, deputy head of the Public Chamber’s committee for security. Chugunov quotes the “Group IB” information security company as saying that over the past six months about 600 websites belonging to various Russian organizations and companies have been attacked by hackers from Islamic State (IS, previously known as ISIL and ISIS), and other terrorist organizations from the Mideast region.

Posted by: shadyl | Oct 31 2015 17:00 utc | 12

The US has been using jihadis (and also fascists) against its geopolitical opponents since the 1990's when Afghan jihadis were allowed by the US to transit into the Balkans to perform head chopping of Serbs.

Also in that decade a CIA front company was set up in Azerbaijan to funnel Afghan and other jihadis into Chechnya and also to fight Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh (after the Azeris mass murdered Armenians in Baku).

The US created and aids/abets ISIS against both Iraq and Syria, and the ultimate target is Russia and China.

Russia and China are signaling that they are both getting fed up with the Wests' geopolitical agenda. It's already late 1939 again. A much bigger war is likely to come.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Oct 31 2015 17:03 utc | 13

Russia's Transport Minister says airplane not shot down,

The back boxes were found quickly and have likely been examined already, thus the assuredness of the minister's statement. But Russia should still destroy the oil flow.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 31 2015 17:04 utc | 14

"OFIRA" Israeli Air Force Base, not "Orita". Sorry.

Posted by: Ananymus | Oct 31 2015 17:04 utc | 15

This is a dark uptick on the timeline towards all out regional war.

How can this tragedy be attributed to 'technical failure'? Airplanes don't break apart in mid-air due to the failure of some electronic or mechanical part or even a deliberate assault on the crew. What caused the aircraft to go down?

1. Detonation of explosive devices on board the plane.
2. Surface-to-air missile.
3. Air-to-air missile attack.
4. Severe metal fatigue of the main fuselage (remote possibility).

The plane was an Airbus A320-200 (see: ).

The passenger capacity is rated at 195 with 2 crew (see: )

The article says the passenger manifest was 217. This needs clarification, either it is the wrong plane or the total number of passengers that perished is in incorrect.

The Russians will get to the bottom of this we can be sure of that. They will have their own personnel on the ground and go over every square meter to uncover the truth as to what happen to the aircraft and the poor souls who lost their lives.

Posted by: PokeTheTruth | Oct 31 2015 17:09 utc | 16

Ok, stealing another comment.

Just trying to keep my scorecard straight. Let’s see. The Americans are using a Turkish airbase to bomb ISIS and protect our allies the Kurds.
The Turks are bombing our allies the Kurds while we are using their airbase.
The Americans are supplying human shields for terrorist in Syria who are being bombed by the Russians.
On the Iraqi side, American air power is being used to protect and support the new Iranian puppet regime in Iraq installed by the Americans after the gulf war.
The Mahdi army that we fought in Sadr City are now advanced element of the Iraqi army we are protecting.
Officers of “the world’s leading state sponsor of terrorism” the Iranians are standing next to Iraqi officers who are standing next to American officers all cooperating to kill ISIS soldiers who have been receiving weapons from Americans through American proxies we consider”moderate rebels”.
Meanwhile, our “enemies” the Iranians are supporting Houthi rebels in Yemen while our “allies” the people who destroyed the trade centers have involved the U.S. in yet another unauthorized war by aggressively attacking the houthis who were helping the U. S. fight Al Queda in Yemen before .
In the meanwhile “moderate rebels” are undoubtedly being furnish weapons capable of bringing down Russian war planes. So while Russia is bombing ISIS, we are encouraging our proxies to shoot down their planes.
Will someone tell me whose side we are on today?

I am not the only one confused. Which leads me to believe the our government is seriously fragmented. Obama has lost control. Hillary at State was a huge mistake.

2014, this also might explain why ISIS has never targeted Golen Heights, etc.:

Israel's Former Ambassador: Militant Shias Are More Dangerous Than Sunnis

Michael Oren made the provocative claim that "the lesser evil is the Sunnis over the Shias," while insisting that the U.S. should never ally with Iran, even against Sunni terrorists.

Most notably, he responded to a question about whether America should ally with Iran to fight Sunni terrorists in Iraq by insisting that, when it comes to militant Islam in the Middle East, even after the rise of ISIS, "the lesser evil is the Sunnis over the Shias." Sunnis may carry out suicide bombings and international terrorist attacks (as America learned on 9/11), but Shias from Tehran to Beirut wield far more hard military power and pose a much larger threat to Israel. "It's of a different magnitude entirely," he argued. "Do not make a pact with Iran."

Posted by: shadyl | Oct 31 2015 17:12 utc | 17

This was written 10/21, but now in panic MANY other voices are rising to support Obama's resistance to the neocons-- the position which he's just abandoned. And which must be helped by ISIS claims of shooting down a commercial jet.
Simplified, Putin is in Syria and his realist message to America is: ‘Share the Middle East with us now or we both fall in the future’.

And it looks like Obama has quietly taken heed, in the interest of Empire and realism and not out of cowardice or submission to Putin.

Obama’s problem is that although he begrudgingly agrees with Putin’s analysis and remedy, he cannot be seen to be supporting it in public because the Neocons would immediately set the dogs of treason on him, bogging him down with political obtrusion and smear campaigns in his last 15 months of power – possibly damaging his party’s winning chances at the next elections.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 17:23 utc | 18

Bomb in luggage compartment placed by Islamist scum as retribution....
You can put all the window dressing elements of security at an airport like that, but the people who work there are one big security breach.
Gotta be. It's the only thing that makes sense and the truth will out...

Posted by: a pols | Oct 31 2015 17:43 utc | 19

@ 18 Penelope

Oh that poor Obama, what a good guy.
He can't speak out his peace-loving thougts because of those evil people around him.

Don't forget his arrogant and agressive tone and attitude against Russia and against Putin.
From the first minute of his regime.

Posted by: From The Hague | Oct 31 2015 17:53 utc | 20

Cloud Ukraine neo nazis have given ISIS, the same kind of missile that downed Dutch airliner in 2014?

Posted by: Andoheb | Oct 31 2015 17:54 utc | 21

The Airbus 321 has an excellent safety record, one that doesn't have their jets dropping vertically out of the sky like a rock.

The jet crashed near the US-manned 'Task Force Sinai' near Al Arish.

The original story had survivors, but that was wiped. IDF and Israeli intelligence units just happened to be in the area.

Right, nothing amiss here.

Posted by: Catman | Oct 31 2015 17:57 utc | 22

ISIL would be proud and happy to commit atrocities like this, but so would countless members of the evil elite in the US Empire. They would be ecstatic at this tragedy.
Just because ISIL comes out and says it, doesn't mean that the Empire or the likes dont silently think the same as ISIL.

Even though at this stage it looks to be an accident, without committing to a point of view, If there's gonna be any early suspicion of sabotage, then the Empire and it's puppets has to be looked at too.

Posted by: tom | Oct 31 2015 17:59 utc | 23

Que descansen en paz sus almas.

Posted by: Fernando | Oct 31 2015 17:59 utc | 24


(t'hee hee)

Chiwawas... ankle biters. Bring 'em on!

Posted by: jdmckay | Oct 31 2015 18:05 utc | 25

This is coming right on time to support Obama's sudden decision to intervene more dramatically in Syria.
The possibility that ISIS, armed with the high tech weapons they bought from the US backed rebels, could down commercial airplanes, will give a boost to the US administration plan to control closely their allies on the ground and to have a role in 'liberating' Syria.
The USA got the point. The Russians and the Syrian army are seriously going to kickout ISIS and the Islamists rebels from the north West, the center and the South. The USA wants to have the last piece of the cake in order to be in a stronger position to negotiate. That's why they have enrolled the Kurds ( Peshmerga and YPG) and some 'moderate' Syrian rebels to free and occupy the North East.
This is also a way to calm the Turks by diverting the Kurds away from the Turkish borders.
There is a pending question: Will the Kurds renounce to Rojava, win the Raqqa battle, and if they do would they accept to share the victory with the Arab rebels?

Posted by: Virgile | Oct 31 2015 18:07 utc | 26

May the victims rest in peace.

Posted by: nona | Oct 31 2015 18:20 utc | 27

Obama does not act on principles. He maintains no principles on which to act. He was "groomed" (manufactured) thus by the CIA.

Obama simply bobs and weaves - taking the path of least resistance (fewest negative consequences to himself).

He reacts and responds to events - and to his handlers in accordance with the above.

That said, he may enjoy the opportunity to stick it to his AIPAC masters if he can do so with plausible deniability.

Posted by: fast freddy | Oct 31 2015 18:33 utc | 28

From the Hague @20,

You're right, that neocon rhetoric that he spouts is truly disgusting.
Took me a really long time to see the behavior which differed from it.
The more prudent, but still villainous, faction of which he is the
most visible member wants to step back from the aggressive behavior of
the neocons. Just one of the pieces of evidence: Obama inexplicably
withdrew command & control of the Patriots which implemented the no-fly
in northern Syria in July & has refused to implement a no-fly w buffer
zones for the 3 months since despite universal & public insistence by
powerful people.

The neocon elements, especially within the military-industrial complex
are still the dominant power bloc, but the bloc in power before Bush, Sr
is attempting to resist their dangerous actions in the mideast, overtly
seeking a more multi-polar approach. This does not make them good guys,
just less dangerous in the short run.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 19:04 utc | 29

ISIL claims credit for shooting down a passenger aircraft with Russian civilians aboard almost as soon as it happened. Dunno, it was going slow from it's climb, but it was high at 30,000 ft. Even with nearby mountains giving a 10,000 ft elevation to a terrorist equipped with the best US made shoulder launch missiles*, I say it's unlikely they have the right weapon. But...given the line extracted from AV-Week story below, I think the assurances that it was a "technical failure", horribly premature...the only "technical failure" accident I can recall, that would fit this bill is, an in-flight deployment of a thrust reverser...and that history would belong to Boeing's 767.

" unusual speed deviations noticeable until 06.13 a.m. when it was crossing the Sinai peninsula. About one minute before radar contact was lost, massive speed and altitude changes were traced. According to flight tracking website Flightradar24, the last recorded speed was 92 knots at an altitude of 28,375 ft."

*Remember, just last week, John McCain chillingly predicted the US would arm and equip terrorists to effect just such an outcome.

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 31 2015 19:09 utc | 30

Pilot radioed mechanical problems, was trying to make Al-Arish airport, when he went down
in Hasana region, which is mountainous. If he'd crash-landed on the flat in a landing attitude
we could have expected survivors. If he was totally w/o power from 31,000 feet he probably had
about 10 minutes flight time.

"Vanishing from radar" may have referred only to the transponder, which cd fail due to electrical
problems. Primary radar from a less-well-endowed airport's ATC might have had a range as short as
100 miles. Or the loss of altitude could also account for loss of radar contact.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 19:20 utc | 31

From RT a short while ago:

"The pilot of the crashed plane did not address flight operations officers at Sharm El-Sheikh International Airport before the catastrophe, said the Egyptian civil aviation minister Hossam Kamal.
“Communication between flight operations officers and [the] Russian aircraft was carried out in normal way up to the moment of the catastrophe,” he said at a press-conference in Cairo, stressing that the pilot had not asked for help and the plane “suddenly” disappeared."

Posted by: Lochearn | Oct 31 2015 19:28 utc | 32

karlof1 @ 1,

“U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq and Syria carried out a large-scale attack on Syria’s
Omar oil field as part of its mission to target ISIS’s ability to generate money,
a coalition spokesman said Thursday.

Operations officer Maj. Michael Filanowski told journalists in Baghdad that airstrikes
late Wednesday struck ISIS-controlled oil refineries, command and control centers and
transportation nodes in the Omar oil field near the town of Deir el-Zour.
Coalition spokesman Col. Steven Warren said the attack hit 26 targets, making it one
of the largest set of strikes since launching the air campaign last year.

The refinery generates between $1.7 and $5.1 million per month for ISIS."

Unfortunately, Aleppo's water-purification system relies on the electrical plant that they bombed recently.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 19:29 utc | 33

Allan @4,

Yes, it's amazing how long they've let the terrorists continue to act in the Sinai.
Wonder why.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 19:33 utc | 34

McCain Calls on US to Provide Stinger Missiles to Syrian Rebels

Posted by: harry law | Oct 31 2015 20:17 utc | 35

In the first place - what is ISIS doing in Egypt and how did some of its fighters get there?

If it is true that ISIS fighters made that statement about bringing down the Russian jet, what purpose does that statement serve?

Can it be that ISIS in the Sinai wishes to draw Russian intention to it, with the intent of drawing Russian air force jets into a trap in which Russian air force jets come into conflict with Israeli air force jets or are put into a situation where they can be blamed for attacks on Palestinian or Israeli civilian targets? Can anyone see the propaganda value if such blame can be made? Can the US be so stupid and so morally baseless as to use one false flag attack after another to stampede the Western public into supporting an all-out NATO invasion of Syria?

Posted by: Jen | Oct 31 2015 20:29 utc | 36

@Penelope 33

Amazing how the US can constantly find terrorists occupying Syrian infrastructure.
(Power stations, water purification plants, oil refineries ,,,) - and then swiftly
follow up with a bombing campaign. Some reasons for these actions spring to my mind -

Punish Assad and his people and make them pay for daring to stand up to the Empire.
Create chaos and misery to the Syrian people and government for years to come.

In the process, create a refugee crisis in Europe that punishes these Western European
puppets for their lukewarm support towards the Empire's designs in the Middle East.

Posted by: curious | Oct 31 2015 20:30 utc | 37

35 did you see my comment at 30?

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 31 2015 20:31 utc | 38

I am quite sure that 98 knots at 28k feet is not enough speed to keep that airplane flying. Regardless what brought the aircraft down the crew would have had plenty of time while dropping five miles to make radio contact if they were alive and the cockpit was intact. I am assuming some emergency backup for comunications and navigation in case of power failure.

Posted by: RJB | Oct 31 2015 20:47 utc | 39

Plane wreckage is concentrated, not scattered in lots of little pieces. Therefore, not a bomb on board.

Posted by: lysias | Oct 31 2015 21:02 utc | 40

ISIS has been active in the Sinai Peninsula for some time. TIME: Egypt Is Struggling to Cope With Its ISIS Insurgency (July 23, 2015):

A rocket attack on a warship was just the latest in a series of escalating attacks on Egyptian forces in Sinai

They have attacked on land and at sea, killing dozens of soldiers. They have assassinated a senior official in daylight and attempted to seize a small Sinai town.

Posted by: lysias | Oct 31 2015 21:07 utc | 41

RJB @39,

"Aviate, navigate and communicate -- in that order". Please learn something about the customs and protocols of piloting an aircraft before projecting fetid Anglo one-upsmanship onto others.

Posted by: Jonathan | Oct 31 2015 21:16 utc | 42

OT Abby Martin: the Empire Files
The Censored Reality Of The Refugee Crisis

Today, 60 million human beings are displaced from war and extreme poverty. Many European countries are responding to the crisis with racist hysteria, policing and police state measures.

Posted by: okie farmer | Oct 31 2015 21:19 utc | 43

If everyone can agree that the Malaysian airliner take-down over Ukraine was a blow against Russia, then this may be viewed as a much more personal assault.
Keeping the Russians from vacationing in Dahab is not the same as denying Russia a base of operations, but the messaging is typically multi-fold.
In no particular order:
a) - Russian presence is not welcome in the ME.
b) - Look we can take down aircraft, even if they fly very high. Bombs or missiles will do.
c) - You cannot defend your people, and by extension your country and your interests.
d) - Islamic militant proxies will continue to do our bidding.
e) - We think nothing of striking civilians, although there may also have been target(s) of value on board.
f) - Egypt better watch itself.
g) - We won't let you bomb our boys in Syria, and then take leave in the Sinai, where your families meet you for vacation!

The question to ask is, where are, or were, the 'usual' suspects at the time of the criminal act? Hmm, let's see.
Response - wasn't us, we're all good choirboys attending a Syria 'peace' conference, arguing for peace.
Blatant timing.

Posted by: spinworthy | Oct 31 2015 21:22 utc | 44

ShadyLady @ 17,
Actually, it does make sense provided you accept two conditions:
1. The public (pretend) position should not outrage moral sensitivities.
2. The actual ideology of the still-dominant neocons is "Straussian chaos".
I think it was Dempsey who was fired for sending Obama a memo
asking for clarification of what position the moderates in training were
sposed to take towards the Assad govt. But Obama was pretending to
want the neocon's destruction of Assad, while actually destroying the
moderate training program while pretending merely to be incompetent.
Here's the instrux he doled out about the training program:
-They shd commit to fighting ISIS.
-No US personnel shd get in touch w previous (CIA) trainees in Syria.
That is, the new program shd start from scratch.
-Decisions regarding FSA should be left to the White House. (He then
failed for months to answer urgent queries-- abandoning them)
-The new trainees were not to attempt to take ground, but just to hold it.
(I'm not kidding)
-Pentagon officials were to contact only those "rebel forces" whose names
appeared on a White House list.
There's more, but I can't remember it.
When Gen Allen left he said the Prez wasn't "committed" to the program.
(He he he, snicker, snicker. When did he figure THAT out?)
Just like most of us he was confused by the rhetoric.

Straussian chaos was employed in the ME because it, like Yugoslavia, rejected
the IMF and WTO: It resisted monetary and trade imperialism.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 21:25 utc | 45

Thanks B for putting a link to that Thom Friedman article. I always knew he was one of the stupidest talking heads in America. But I didnt think he was THAT stupid.

Posted by: Massinissa | Oct 31 2015 21:28 utc | 46

S Brennan @38 Yes I agree with you, it is premature to speculate, I made a prediction last week that if stingers were made available to Jihadis, no planes taking off from Ben Gurion airport would be safe.Does John McCain care?

Posted by: harry law | Oct 31 2015 21:35 utc | 47

Yes, and the next thing that ISIS is going to do is to send a manned mission to Mars. Right?

To give credit to ISIS for the Russian aircraft downing you first need to declare what ISIS you are referring to? Some ex Iraqi military types, the thrill seekers, the Akbar crowd, the finance group, the various Nation states and three letter agencies providing support, or the all-powerful New York, London, Jerusalem tribe?

Can one of those under the ISIS umbrella do it: they sure can. The easiest is a little package placed on board the plane that will cause those unwanted technical problems. Pressure sensor activated just when the aircraft reaches its cruising altitude.

Those wide body planes are rock solid in terms of safety. And at over 5 Km in the air, that is when they super safe. Statistically, the chances of this being an accident to a Russian plane in the Middle East at the time of a Russian campaign are just about zero.

IMO this was the long awaited response from the West to Russia. Being weak, they choose guerrilla style counterattack. I think it was an excellent strategy. Plus it will prime things for WWIII. I mean the western finance system is absolute toast, they already moved to negative interest rates to keep the system going, the petrol dollar is dead, and US$ reserve status is fading. The band aids and patches are breaking. This WWIII stuff will solve these massive problems and as a bonus will thin the herd. I mean let’s give credit where credit is do. These guys are really smart and they are great at pulling this stuff off. Let’s give them a well desired round of applause!

Of course in about one week’s time, we will hear that it was a defective cargo door latch. This defective piece has already been planted at the wreckage site. I can already read the headlines, “Russian Firm Failed to do Proper Maintenance” and then the story is complete. Bravo.

Posted by: Peter B | Oct 31 2015 22:01 utc | 48

@46 "I always knew he was one of the stupidest talking heads in America. But I didnt think he was THAT stupid."

Yeah, Tom Friedman reminds me of one of those magicians who pulls like 200 feet of knotted, multi-colored rag out of a foot-long wand... Only with stupid.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 31 2015 22:03 utc | 49

It is a massive assumption at this stage to assume foul play. This was an aircraft that was eighteen years old. It appears that it suffered a tail strike in 2001 (in Cairo) that was sufficiently serious to take it out of service for at least two months.

We know from other accidents that there can be problems with repairs to tail strikes. China Airlines Flight 611 (a Boeing 747) fell out of the sky in 2002 due to a faulty tail strike repair carried out many years before. The large hole in the fuselage caused massive decompression and severed the rear part of the plane. Japan Airlines Flight 123 also crashed in 1985 due to a faulty tail strike repair.

Posted by: Lochearn | Oct 31 2015 22:27 utc | 50

Jonathan @ 42, Your response to my simple comment makes zero sense and I cannot guess what seems to have offended you. I was projecting nothing onto anyone else, certainly not one-upsmanship, and I do know a bit about flying though my direct experience with full sized aircraft was mainly as the owner of a tail dragger many years ago. Did I say something technically incorrect?

Posted by: RJB | Oct 31 2015 22:37 utc | 51

Lochearn @32,

Thanks for the heads up that everyone's not reporting the same thing, so I searched a few sites
and here's what I came up with: good clear photos
A Russian aircraft did not lodge an SOS call before crashing in Sinai, killing all 224 people on board,
Egypt's civil aviation minister says. Initial reports from Egypt said the pilot of the Kogalymavia airline
had asked to make an emergency landing. But minister Hossam Kamal said there had been no sign of any problems
on board the flight.

--- al-Muqadem,
an Egyptian official with the government's Aviation Incidents Committee, said air controllers lost contact
with the plane’s pilot after he radioed that the aircraft was experiencing technical problems and that
he needed to make an emergency landing. The jet then dropped off radar screens.
A ministry statement said Egyptian military search and rescue teams found the wreckage of the passenger jet
in the remote mountainous Hassana area 44 miles south of el-Arish, an area in northern Sinai where Egyptian
security forces are fighting a burgeoning Islamic militant insurgency led by a local affiliate of the Islamic
extremist group ISIS.
A branch of ISIS claimed responsibility for downing the plane in a statement on Twitter, Sky News reported,
adding that the claim had not been verified and it was unclear whether Sinai militants have the capability
to attack a plane flying at a high altitude.
The flight, operated by Metrojet and bound for St Petersburg, lost contact with air traffic control
23 minutes after departure. Its wreckage was found about 100km (60 miles) south of the north Sinai town
of El-Arish, Egyptian officials said.
A north Sinai security source said a technical fault was the initial explanation for the crash, adding that
the plane landed in a “vertical fashion”.
The first rescue workers at the scene described the plane as “completely destroyed” and an Egyptian security
officer told Reuters that many passengers had died strapped in to their seats.
“The plane split into two, a small part on the tail end that burned and a larger part that crashed into a rock.
We have extracted at least 100 bodies and the rest are still inside,” he said.
The Russian embassy in Cairo said it was told by Egyptian officials that the pilot had been trying to make an
emergency landing at El-Arish. Conflicting reports earlier emerged, with suggestions that there were some
survivors after voices were heard in the wreckage of the plane’s cabin. Egyptian search and rescue officials
said later that all 224 on board, including 17 children, died.
The Airbus 321 was at an altitude of 9,450m when it vanished from radar screens. Most of the passengers
are said to be Russian tourists, according to reports. The plane was operated by the small Russian airline
Kogalymavia, based in western Siberia.
Technical malfunction: The pilot reportedly requested clearance for an emergency landing at Cairo airport
due to a technical malfunction. A senior Egyptian air traffic control official said the pilot told him in their
last communication that he had radio trouble.
Russian aviation official Sergei Izvolsky told Interfax news agency the aircraft took off from Sharm el-Sheikh
at 5:51 am (0351 GMT). He said it did not make contact as expected with Cyprus air traffic control.
"Communication was lost today with the Airbus 321 of Kogalymavia which was carrying out flight 9268 from Sharm
el-Sheikh to Saint Petersburg," Izvolsky told Russian television networks. "The plane departed Sharm el-Sheikh
with 217 passengers and seven crew members. At 7:14 Moscow time the crew was scheduled to make contact with...
Larnaca (Cyprus). "However, this did not happen and the plane disappeared from the radar screens."
This site shows FlightRadar24 data, 2 charts, other planes in area, altitude when contact lost, etc, etc. RECOMMENDED

After delays caused by poor weather conditions, Egyptian search and rescue teams located the site of the crash
in the Hassana area 35 km (22 miles) south of the Sinai Mediterranean coastal city of Al Arish, the aviation ministry statement said.

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 23:11 utc | 52

I think you're right about Da'esh or any of the other al CIAda branches not yet having the weapons to shoot down airliners, to reach commercial aircraft and kill hundreds of ordinary people you need heavier stuff. And cold blood. Athough al CIAda certainly has the cold blood.

I wonder if they'll carry-on with their pretense and award their 'commander' in charge a Navy Commendation Medal, or the Legion of Merit? They don't have a navy yet either, but then again, you never can tell ...

Posted by: jfl | Oct 31 2015 23:40 utc | 53

RJB @ 39, You're right, it looks like they DID communicate, altho reports aren't consistent.
The clip from The Hindu mentions the weather. Don't know what that might have been. Icing of
the wings can create severe problems, but surely that's unlikely.

I'm baffled why Plane Finder as quoted by The Hindu above reports loss of altitude:

"At around 04:12:58z #7K9268 had entered a steep descent topping out at 6080ft/min drop
just before we lost contact!
1:38 AM - 31 Oct 2015"

Obviously the pilot wd have maintained an attitude to maximize glide, so sounds like he didn't have control of the
flight surfaces. Could he have been hacked? His last communication says he was having
trouble w his radio. Is Plane Finder reliable? Is it part of Flightradar24?

Posted by: Penelope | Oct 31 2015 23:57 utc | 54

@ 54 "Icing of the wings can create severe problems, but surely that's unlikely."

From Sinai weather site: "October is a good time of year to visit Sharm el-Sheikh, for while the daily weather is hot, it is not as excessively so as during the summer months, Daytime temperatures rise to an average maximum between 31 and 32°C, and the temperature falls to an average minimum of 23°C overnight."

Posted by: Lochearn | Nov 1 2015 0:11 utc | 55

@Penelope 45, couple threads ago I was wondering about France's role in all of this, and someone posted a link to Volairenet which I had never read. I don't know how factual they are but the history lesson helped [info on The Sykes-Picot Agreements]. It also led me to the second link below with info on Allen.

Why does France want to overthrow the Syrian Arab Republic ?
by Thierry Meyssan

France is today the main international power which is calling for the overthrow of the Syrian Arab Republic. While the White House and the Kremlin are secretly negotiating the most efficient way of getting rid of the jihadists, Paris persists in accusing the « Bachar régime » (sic) of having created Daesh, and declaring that after having eliminated the Islamic Emirate, it will be necessary to overthrow « the Alawite dictatorship » (re-sic). France is publicly supported by Turkey and Saudi Arabia, and also, secretly, by Israel.

Besides this, Saudi Arabia now holds a non-negligible percentage of the companies listed in the CAC40, which means that any sudden withdrawal of its investments would cause serious economic damage to France.
BIG snip

On the 29th of July 2011, France created the Free Syrian Army (the « moderates »). Contrary to the official communiqué concerning its commander, Colonel Riyad el-Asaad, the first elements engaged were not Syrians, but Libyan members of al-Qaïda. Riyad el-Asaad is no more than a cover, supposed to give the affair a Syrian veneer.

General Allen hands in his resignation

In fact, General John Allen is opposed to any agreement with Iran or Russia. For the last year, he has done everything possible to support the Islamic Emirate, including organising numerous parachute deliveries of weapons. It has only been since the signing of the agreement between Washington and Teheran, on the 14th July 2015, that he has effectively undertaken actions against the terrorists.

The resignation of John Allen attests to the fact that President Obama is cleaning up his administration and pursuing his policy of alliance with Teheran and Moscow.

We have explained the conspiracies involving General David Petraeus, General John Allen, and their friends of the Center for a New American Security [2]. President Obama had attempted to get rid of them the day after his re-election in November 2012 [3]. He succeeded in causing the fall of the director of the CIA, and removing John Allen from the command of NATO, but had been obliged to keep it with him [4]. He temporarily renounced his project with Russia, and for the next three years concentrated on his diplomatic exchanges with Iran, leaving his adversaries to organise the resumption of the war in Syria and the coup d’état in Ukraine.

An internal enquiry was then opened by the Pentagon in order to determine who was falsifying the Intelligence reports of CentCom and the Coalition [8]. Cornered, General Allen decided to hand in his resignation.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 0:16 utc | 56

I didn't realize before, there's a video from Flightradar24 here-- looks like a
more alarming explanation w/b due

I notice BBC put it up. Are they usually so obliging? I mean they are not exactly
hiding possible tracks of a sophisticated take-down.

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 1 2015 0:19 utc | 57

@ 57
Don't see anything special in the BBC report. Only this: "A criminal case had been opened against Kogalymavia for "violation of rules of flight and preparation for them", Russia's Ria news agency reported."

Posted by: Lochearn | Nov 1 2015 0:27 utc | 58

@17 It's a bizarre argument, isn't it?

*They* are your enemy, ergo, you mustn't make a pact with *them*.


Isn't that how you turn "enemies" into "allies"?

Isn't the very fact that *they* are also willing to "pact with you" a sign that they aren't quite as implacable as they are being painted?

Thinkin' about it....
Thinkin' about it....
Thinkin' about it....

Nup, still can't find anything wrong with the idea of turning an enemy into an ally.

Apparently in the World of Oren everyone's roles are set in stone, and ad-libbing - much less "character development", God forbid! - is a very definite no-no.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 1 2015 1:38 utc | 59

Enjoy a go lough listening to US strategic allies

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 1 2015 1:57 utc | 60

Calling out US Strategy in Vienna
Alexander Nekrassov, a former Kremlin adviser tells it like it is and echoes much of b's earlier analysis on the initial shock/disorientation of the U.S. and subsequent rush to start 'talks' in Vienna. The debate with a complete shill is worth watching.

min 6:31

starting talks in Vienna while announcing sending special forces to Syria [by the U.S.] is a provocation.

the talks started because America and its allies started to panic when Russia and Iran started to really hit hard.

min 12:45

... no body asked Americans to bomb in Syria, nobody asked special operations to start in Syria, they are doing it illegally and this is the most important thing ... the Russians and Iranians are acting legally they are responding to the Syrian request, Americans are not.

... at this point I think they [America and their allies] are just bluffing, they are wasting time, they are terrified that Russian involvement in Syria is going to destroy all these terrorist groups that they have been funding and arming.

Posted by: thirsty | Nov 1 2015 3:33 utc | 61

In that Telegraph liveblog they actually added a "satirical" tweet by Eliot Higgins. Can anybody tell me why in the hell Telegraph would include something like that in a story about a plane crash? That's beyond bizarre. Just like the prolific inclusion of Higgins and Bellingcat in everything is bizarre. But this one is particularly f'ing strange. What the hell? I am tempted to use much stronger language but instead I will leave that part to the saltiest of your imaginations.

Posted by: gemini33 | Nov 1 2015 5:57 utc | 62

A couple more things from that Telegraph liveblog:

13.54 What caused the crash?
David Learmount, consulting editor with Flight Global, said it was too early to rule anything out during the early stages of an investigation.
“Flight radar data makes clear there was a flight upset, but we have no idea why. There are loads of terrorist factions operating in the area and many affiliated to Islamic State. The Egyptians work very hard on security at Sharm El Sheik because if you wanted to destroy the tourist economy that would be the likewise target. However the plane was too high for a shoulder launched missile, but it was 2,000 feet lower than MH17.”
However, sounding a note of caution about terrorism, he added: "In this case the aircraft appears to have come down in one piece, unlike MH17.”


Adel Mahgoub, chairman of the state company that runs Egypt's civilian airports, said all passengers and crew were Russian citizens.

"Roughly three million Russian tourists, or nearly a third of all visitors in 2014, come to Egypt every year, mostly to Red Sea resorts in Sinai or in mainland Egypt"

There's no conclusion that this plane was taken down by an attack of some kind. Because of all the circumstances in the region, it seems like everyone immediately assumed that as very likely. Maybe that's a bad assumption. And if the piece of information about the plane coming down in one piece is true or information about mechanical or other technical problems with the plane are true, maybe the attack scenario is less likely.

I have a fascination with flightradar24 and a week or so ago, by coincidence, I had noticed a massive amount of air traffic between Sharm al-Sheik and Russia and then read about the diving and other tourist activities. But I didn't realize that a full third of Egypt's (desperately needed) tourism came from Russians. Presumably the sanctions have a lot to do with this.

If that plane was taken down deliberately, it would be a very good way to hurt both Russia and Egypt, if that was the goal. It's hard to forget about the apparent cooperation between Russia and Egypt on the Mistral ships. Was that cooperation just business or does it indicate cooperation in other ways?

One more thing: In several places the statements by Egyptian officials are being reported in a way that sends the message that airplanes flying at 32,000 feet can't be shot down from the ground. I assume they mean can't be shot down with MANPADS but that is not how it is being reported. More powerful and sophisticated anti-air weapons can take down a plane at that height, correct? If so, why is it being reported like this:

"Egyptian Prime Minister Sharif Ismail expressed doubt about the claim, saying experts confirmed that a plane cannot be downed at such an altitude"

Posted by: gemini33 | Nov 1 2015 6:06 utc | 63

"But whatever. That IS claims to have taken down an airliner shows that it has intent to do such. That is then the end of stupid arguments to work with IS or to let it live and prosper. The claim will also the end to any attempt to give serious air defense weapons to "insurgents" in Syria. The weapons could easily end up in al-Qaeda or IS hands and it is now clear what they would be doing with them.
b. October 31. 2015"

You took the words right out of my mouth, b.
Given that IS is AmeriKKKa's hate-child / destabilisation tool, the only thing you left out was that this so-called "IS claim" is so effing stupid that it can only be explained by the over-arching policy Amerikkka's pro-war wonks follow when they're out of their depth (ie most of the time) - as stated by Xymphora a few months ago:
"Let's do SOMETHING, even if it's stupid!"

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 1 2015 6:54 utc | 64

The disputed video

Posted by: hidflect | Nov 1 2015 7:01 utc | 65

@48 peter b.. thanks.. nice post except the conspiratorial conclusion.. it might be, and it might not be... think of all the conclusions on mh 17 from last july 2014? where are we now with any of it? - same place as back then.. same deal 9-11.. some believe one thing and others believe something else.. unless it something is explained soon, this is going to go into conspiracy theory and remain their forever. nothing wrong with that either i suppose, except nothing is definitive in spite of the conspiracy positions people may or may not take.

Posted by: james | Nov 1 2015 7:11 utc | 66


I don't even understand how it's permissible for McCain to say out loud that he'd like to dump Stingers into Syria for shooting down Russian jets. This is the sorta thinking that ought to remain in a fevered brain, never uttered beyond padded walls. The fact that he's out there in the Senate pushing for surface-to-air missiles for Islamist totalitarians to kill Russians is a perfect storm of outrageous, stupid, rabid, pick your adjective (is there even an adjective strident enough to describe this apocalyptic intensity, this world-death wish? No, it's beyond words, since what he's proposing is a scenario in which words are destroyed). He wants to back Al Qaeda to start WWIII. For commenters who don't live in the States, please understand what us poor citizens stateside are dealing with here. A complete loss of political reality. A regime become as psychotic in its pronouncements as Kim Jong-un - more so, actually, since no one believes Kim when he threatens to dissolve South Korea and Japan and the USA in fire, whereas our Serious politicians, from right to left, are seriously threatening armed confrontation with Russia over Syria.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 1 2015 7:24 utc | 67


"the all-powerful New York, London, Jerusalem tribe"

Pardon - do you mean the Jews? And if you do, why don't you just come out and say "the Jews"?

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 1 2015 7:45 utc | 68

It's telling the Egyptians are retracting the claim that the pilot radioed about technical problems. Now the line is, no distress call. This was almost certainly an IS attack - one the Russians will want to cover up for domestic purposes.

In saying that, I don't mean to let the IS-backing West and Gulf off the hook. I remember Ashton Carter practically smacking his lips forecasting Russian military or civilian casualties any day now. If the SAM didn't come from Libyan stocks, it was probably Saudi-supplied.

But Sisi is a Wonderland character, and whatever the truth is, I doubt it's ever gonna coming out of the rabbit hole. This plane will join the Malaysian Air flights in the mists.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 1 2015 8:03 utc | 69

@20 Penelope's view of Obama was ever thus, FTH. She thinks he's a modern Prometheus, not a modern Pinocchio. With opinions that silly, she should post less.

Posted by: Space Moose | Nov 1 2015 8:22 utc | 70

@68 Pardon - do you mean the Jews? And if you do, why don't you just come out and say "the Jews"?

Because then hasbara like you whine "You can't say that about the Jews! Shut down this website! It's like anudda shoah, only real! Stop holocausting me with your hate-truth!"

Shoo now. Go hasbara someplace that cares.

Posted by: Space Moose | Nov 1 2015 8:27 utc | 71

Wow Space Moose - You bring so much evidence to refute Penelope's views that you would be a real asset to this blog. Why don't you post more.

Oh, yes, you already do, foff.

Posted by: Most Curious | Nov 1 2015 8:56 utc | 72

Repeating myself, but why isn't hacking being considered for mysteriously crashing commercial aircraft? I know nothing about planes, but they run with computers, and computers can be hacked. Or is it too scary of a thought? All commercial aircraft become vulnerable. Nations are supporting ISIS, so it's not inconceivable.

And we will never know, but who was on the plane? Family members of Russian VIPs?

Nothing can convince me this was not intentional. And Russians know it.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 12:28 utc | 73

Kooshy@60 Thanks for that link, When Mehdi Hasan started off by saying to the Qatari Foreign Minister "The root cause of the conflict in Syria is Assad and his war machine" I thought oh no, but it turned out to be an excellent interview, the Foreign Minister was put on the spot and had to blatantly lie his way through. Full marks to Hasan, hope he keeps his job.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 1 2015 13:13 utc | 74

@shadyl #73:

[planes] run with computers, and computers can be hacked.

A plane's computers aren't networked, I should imagine, which means you would need physical access to hack one. So the usual security procedures controlling access to different parts of a plane should be sufficient. Also, even if you do get access to a plane's computer, I would imagine you need proprietary equipment and software to reprogram it. It's not as if all you need is to slip a flash drive in somewhere and voilà! (This is not to say that the CIA or NSA does not have people writing papers about how it would be nice to have airplane manufacturers put backdoors into a plane's computers.)

Nothing can convince me this was not intentional.

Even rational people who are willing to entertain the possibility that the freedom fighters shot down MH17 (by mistake, not intentionally) are not worried that this might have been a terrorist act.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 1 2015 13:21 utc | 75

@Demian, I think you are the one that posted link to Voltaire, what do think of the site? It had a very interesting take on The Sykes-Picot Agreements re: influencing current events. I came to appreciate history late in life and have been playing catch up ever since.

On hacking, couldn't a component of the computer be replaced [maintenance] at a later date that would allow a backdoor? Being a sf fan, I have visions of Cylons.

IF it was ISIS, how did they know it was even a Russian plane? The timing of the crash is just too coincidental for me.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 13:49 utc | 76

It is impossible today for a plane to go down without speculation about the culprits. As b’s post shows, air crashes have become politicized. This leads to different entities claiming the role of perp or swearing they are innocent! And wait and see, if the Russians determine it was an accident there will be a bunch of ppl saying Egypt and Putin covered up ‘an attack’ because they don’t want ‘escalation’. But I guess (?) we will see a proper investigation.

I had a look at the only pix I could find from the ground and there is nothing to see besides ‘accident.’ Which of course means little. Btw, the supposed vids of the plane in the sky going down are fakes, old footage, etc. There is nothing (afaik so far) that shows the plane broke up in the air or caught fire (some small burning, smoky rather, whisps at crash, which is usual.) As said, the Russians will investigate. (See also Lochearn at 50 and others..)

So sorry for the victims and their families.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 1 2015 13:51 utc | 77

The aircraft, in particular, had experienced a hard tail strike a couple of years earlier. A weakened repair could easily produce "technical difficulties" as well as the inflight eventual separation of the tail. The separation of the tail would have likely produced incorrect readings of altitude and airspeed at the very end and should not be used as "fact".

Posted by: Bardi | Nov 1 2015 13:56 utc | 78

ShadyLady @ 56,
Exactly! I am familiar w all the things you've quoted. Then add Ghassan Kadi's assertion that the Western coalition really was there to bomb ISIS & multiple sources that Allen prevented it & sent phoney intell to the WH that ISIS was being weakened. And then note the difference between Obama's rhetoric & his actions, & it forces one out of the so-comfortable black & white universe. And of course he's not acting alone, but w elements of 'the old school' who were in charge of implementing the globalist plan before the Bush/neocon reckless faction took over.

But there is another aspect to the factional fight: One faction believes in the military's ability to make the specifically US power structure come out on top in the NWO they are building. This faction is fighting against the takedown of the dollar, and may even think of themselves as patriots. The 'old school' is more allied w the power of banking, wants to go to a global currency, is ultimately allied to Rothschilds I imagine.

I know you're familiar w the Strauss-Kahn oh-so-obvious takedown in NYC when he was accused of sexual abuse & jailed. He was head of the IMF at the time, and Meyssan thinks the purpose was to keep him from signing the already-printed global currency into law. Keep in mind that it's partially a speculative article. It's quite long & goes into ludicrous & amusing detail of what Strauss-Kahn is accused of. But if you skip down to the monetary part is fascinating. Skip down to the photo of Christine Lagarde giving someone the finger, then back up 3 paras & begin there. (The beginning of the global currency is 2d only to nuclear war as the worst thing that can happen to us, IMO). " First, the March 29, 2009, the Governor of the Central Bank of China, Zhu Xiaochuan, had challenged the dominance of the US dollar as a reserve currency. "

Posted by: Penelope | Nov 1 2015 14:35 utc | 79

@shadyl #76:

It's impossible not to see France's crude meddling in Syria as an expression of nostalgia for Sykes-Picot. As for Thierry Meyssan and Voltairenet, you'd have to ask Noirette. I was very impressed by that site when I discovered it, as a result of a comment at MoA I think, but now I don't follow it very closely, since I only feel confident in judging reporting coming from an Anglo, Russian, or Germanic perspective. (I say "Germanic" because I lump the Dutch together with the Germans.)

I am so glad you caught that Battlestar Galactica reference. I try to bring it up whenever I can. I really am surprised that the show has not achieved mainstream prominence, the way the original Star Trek series. But of course, unlike in the 1960s, we live in barbaric times. (Also, there's a lot more TV shows being produced today.)

@Noirette #77:

Ukrainians aren't sorry. Colonel Cassad reported that Ukie social networks were brimming with jubilation.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 1 2015 14:35 utc | 80

Syria. Broad topic stretched to anything is now the norm (I disaprove, but so what. I mean the MSM is full of drama and flash news, there are multiple sites to post that stuff, imho it is better to stick to one topic, such as this air crash, to actually get somewhere in a discussion.)

View: Obama is a white knight in disguise and resisting the neo-cons ’n libs. (If he is now ‘doing the right thing’ for his legacy is immaterial.) Can be correct, in the sense of Obama as a repository for various cross-forces, and having no other role than to compose, stabilize, temporise, compromise - like the committee man he is. Or just the CEO of USA-inc, the confused, stumbling, public face.

Or, which is probably closer to the truth as I see it, a ‘leader’ who is obliged to ‘let down’ part of the US political sphere and public thru a forced reality check, i.e. the waning of Pax Americana. Radicals (McCain, Hillary, etc.) have louder voices (as per usual in the ‘opposition’) but they have less power and are struggling.

Or false, in the sense that he is 100% on the aggro US side but needs to appear ‘respectable’ to others on the international scene, while perpetuatin’ myths to the US public (US fights IS etc.)

We cannot know his motivations, and they probably don’t count for much. He probably doesn’t know how to handle them whatever they are, himself.

The Vienna declaration re. Syria - while it has no impact on the ground, kinda, for now, empty diplomacy (read fights between different parties) - makes large concessions to Russia and Iran and so is significant in that sense. (Syria as unitary, S. Gvmt. to be decided by Syrians, elections)

Article 6 is the crux: Da'esh, and other terrorist groups, as designated by the U.N. Security Council, and further, as agreed by the participants, must be defeated.  Which throws the definition of ‘terrorist groups’ (various proxies) to another level, UN, where other power-struggles and rules are at play.

Demian, i never said Ukr. were sorry, of course they are not. Cf. from the Dutch, yikes. The messages, about the crash of the Russian-filled plane in the Sinai, shown there say ‘yeah great’, ‘i love it’, ‘revenge…’, ‘find it fun’ is repeated over and over, ‘let them rot in hell’, all against Russia, as these twitterers, i suppose, accept that Russia BUK-ed MH17.

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 1 2015 15:22 utc | 81

US finally approves crucial ‘smart bomb’ sale to Turkey
The U.S. has decided to sell Turkey $70 million worth of “smart bombs,” a key item in a set of crucial weapon systems that Washington had been refusing to send to Ankara.

The Pentagon announced on Oct. 29 that the U.S. State Department approved the sale after the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), part of the U.S. Department of Defense, told Congress late on Oct. 28 that Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) systems would be sold to Turkey, granting lawmakers 15 days for any block......

Posted by: ALAN | Nov 1 2015 15:36 utc | 82

@Penelope 79. I remember the Strauss-Kahn scandal: the hidden hands ultimate tool, sexual proclivities. I also remember the Spitzer scandal. I think, really?

Speaking of Rothschilds and bankers, I have been going down the black hole of the internet today, memories:

Clinton administration officials, for example, pushed for the passage of the Gramm-Leach-Blilely Act, which repealed a Depression-era provision separating commercial banking from more risky activities and codified the merger that led to megabank Citigroup.

"Bob Rubin and his administration blessed the universal banking model and embraced it and said, ‘make that happen,'" said Wilmarth.

Critics, including Warren, see this as a crucial moment, one that allowed the biggest institutions to become even larger and more complex, eventually forcing the government to bail them out. (Warren has co-authored a bill to undo Gramm-Leach-Bliley and bring back the old Glass-Steagall Act restrictions.)

Which led me to this article, worth reading in full:

Bob Rubin Just Wants to Be Cuddled

by Iris Mack
Applied Mathematician/Energy Trading & Risk Management

Which lead me to google Iris Mack, who I find to be pretty interesting:

Harvard Derivatives Whiz Fired For Emailing Larry Summers About "Frightening" Trades?

So Mack took inventory of the abuses -- high employee turnover, lax risk management practices and a "low level of productivity in the workplace" were among others, and detailed them in an email to Marne Levine, Summers' chief of staff and a Treasury staffer on the Obama Transition Team. (Summers was the only person to whom Meyers reported, and according to a recent Forbes story he personally ordered the university's biggest derivatives trade, a purchase of interest rate swaps that cost the university billions this year.)

A month after sending her email, Mack was fired after a meeting in which the endowment fund's then-chief furnished her the emails and castigated her for making "baseless accusations."


...which lead me back to this after reading her blog:

General Wesley Clark explains ISIS was created by U.S. Allies

Bankers or warmongers neocons. Is this really the only choice we have?

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 15:41 utc | 83

Latest from BBC ... "Russian investigators have said the airliner which crashed in Sinai broke up in the air. Wreckage was spread over a 20km area."

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 1 2015 16:10 utc | 84

@81 noirette quote.."there are multiple sites to post that stuff, imho it is better to stick to one topic, such as this air crash, to actually get somewhere in a discussion." i agree..

perhaps shadyl @17 and anyone else could consider staying on topic with the focus of b's thread. if on the other hand they want to disrupt that focus (talking about israel and etc @17 has that too), they're doing a good job of it..

Posted by: james | Nov 1 2015 16:10 utc | 85

Ah,the Jews;Couldn't there have been a few Jewish Russians on the tourist plane.Jews love to travel.
It's the Zionists,who are 99% Jewish who are the enemy,not Jews in general,many Jews know that the Zionists are wacko crazies.

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 1 2015 16:30 utc | 86

@james 85, the crash the crash, I am sufficiently spanked. It's just so hard for me to stay focused on one frame of a movie that I see intricately connected to a much larger picture. I see malicious, not you the crash.

My intent is not to derail at all, but to see who benefits, and maybe to discover a glimmer of truth. I don't think we will get it from the Russians, as I think they realize it could easily escalate with unintended consequences, etc.

But, was McCain foretelling something re: rebels with missiles? A Freudian slip? Or cover for a known plot?

Anyway, I apologize for being off topic.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 16:41 utc | 87

Hoarsewhisperer @84

I read that this morning too. That the two parts were a small piece of the tail section and the other the remainder of the plane can lead to two immediate hypotheses: bomb in rear luggage compartment; failed "tail-strike" repair,

However, with the wreckage strewn over a 20km area, I'm more inclined to a bombing, although the two case reports at Wikipedia make such a conclusion iffy. The key is if that aircraft suffered a tail strike incident earlier in its history. Personally, I'd want to know if the plane I'm about to board has such a history as I'd probably want to take another airplane.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 1 2015 16:46 utc | 88

@87 shadyl.. thanks. the open threads are good for conversations on various topics.

Posted by: james | Nov 1 2015 16:51 utc | 89


"Ukrainians aren't sorry. Colonel Cassad reported that Ukie social networks were brimming with jubilation"

They really turn my stomach on so many levels. Poor, stupid, self-hating, hateful, governed by criminal oligarchs, with barely a shred of decency.

What is there to like or sympathize with over there? Sad bunch of ignorant scumbags.

Posted by: farflungstar | Nov 1 2015 17:09 utc | 90

Alaska Air in 2000 had poor maintenance record cause of tail-assembly failure leading to uncontrolled dive near vertical into ground.
So tail-strike or maintenance fail on control-surfaces are both very serious and difficult to ascertain all consequences. I.e., when to halt inspection that comes up with "all apparent damage has been repaired" ?. When is the "end of endless inspection" that finds no further fault?

Posted by: littlemind | Nov 1 2015 17:09 utc | 91

Dog that didn't bark?

USA has been bombing ISIS for over a year.

No attempt to take down an American/US-allied commercial airliner during that time.


And US just stepped up its commitment to fight ISIS with Raid to free prisoners in Iraq and 'boots on the ground' in Syria.

No mention of/threat to USA in the claim of responsibility.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 1 2015 17:13 utc | 92

Note: Media-savvy ISIS has had plenty of time to deny the claim or revise it.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 1 2015 17:33 utc | 93

To update my comment @88, the aircraft did have a tail strike incident and subsequent repairs in its past. The lack of condolences sent by Obama's rather telling, Kerry being the only government official to do so according to a news search I just conducted.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 1 2015 17:38 utc | 94

A Russian passenger plane that crashed in Egypt on Saturday broke up in the air, a Russian aviation official said on Sunday.

Viktor Sorochenko, an official with the Intergovernmental Aviation Committee, said it was too early to talk about conclusions from the crash, Russian news agencies reported.

Russia has grounded Airbus A321 jets flown by the Kogalymavia airline, Interfax news agency reported on Sunday, after the crash in Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, which killed all 224 people on board.

Posted by: okie farmer | Nov 1 2015 17:39 utc | 95

Looks like AKP regaining Majority.

Posted by: jdmckay | Nov 1 2015 17:57 utc | 96

@ 94;

The lack of condolences sent by Obama's is rather odd given his hysterics after the shoot down of MH-17...

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 1 2015 18:10 utc | 97

@92 jackrabbit.. i think 'ISIS media' is some branch of operation whose intent is making muslims out to appear complete nutcases.. now, who would want to do that i wonder?

Posted by: james | Nov 1 2015 18:10 utc | 98

Russian Plane "Broke Apart In The Air," Officials Say As Investigators Frantically Search For "Clues"

At times it dropped as fast as 6,000 feet per minute, only to reverse and climb even faster, repeating that pattern several times. At other times, it slowed dangerously. About 24 seconds before losing contact, it dropped to 71 miles per hour from 470 miles, according to the data. Jetliners such as the Airbus 321 can’t stay aloft at such a speed.


"It is too early to draw conclusions," MAK executive director Viktor Sorochenko says. "Disintegration of the fuselage took place in the air, and the fragments are scattered around a large area [about 20 square kilometers]", the official added.

Still, could be sabotaged control systems. Wonder what Putin's next move will be. Someone is trying hard to derail current agreements.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 1 2015 18:27 utc | 99

re 99.

"Still, could be sabotaged control systems"

That behaviour would happen if the tail had fallen off. There was a Japanese 747 some years ago where the rudder fell off through metal fatigue, and the plane became uncontrollable. Still either a bomb, or metal fatigue from the tail-strike two years ago.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 1 2015 18:49 utc | 100

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