Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 29, 2015

Under Russian Pressure U.S. Accepts "Unified", "Secular" Syrian State

Putin's realist talk about Syria at the UN, which embarrassed the platitude spouting Obama, led to a change in U.S. policies.

The White House has halted the Pentagon training of the unicorn riding "moderate rebels". That program is toast but the real question is if the "secret" CIA run program, which is vastly more extensive, is also suspended. My hunch is that it is.

On top of that Secretary of State Kerry made a very new statement that amounts to a really significant change in policy:

The United States and Russia agree on "some fundamental principles" for Syria, the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said on Tuesday, adding that he plans to meet again with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday.

"There was agreement that Syria should be a unified country, united, that it needs to be secular, that ISIL (Islamic State) needs to be taken on, and that there needs to be a managed transition," Kerry told MSNBC, adding that differences remained on what the outcome of such a transition would be.

Never before has the U.S. officially expressed a demand that the Syrian state should in future be "secular" as it is now. This is a rejection of the Muslim Brotherhood dominated Syrian exile coalition and of the GCC states' proxy fighters in Syria who demand a sectarian state based on Islamic law.

Since Israel lost the 2006 war against Hizbullah the U.S. and Israel plotted to overthrow the Syrian government which they accuse of facilitating Hizbullah's military supplies. The U.S. planned, prepared and financed a "color revolution" scheme and an exile opposition. The failing Iraq war and the emergence of a Shia dominated Iraqi government also led to an alliance between Israel, the U.S. and Sunni dominated Gulf states which planned, organized and financed radical Sunni guerrilla forces to attack Iran and its allies in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. As Seymour Hersh reported in 2007:

To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has cooperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.

The "Arab spring" phenomenon allowed to implement the scheme against Syria. Under the disguise of the color-revolution narrative of "peaceful demonstrations" a guerrilla war was launched against the Syrian state. More than ninety policemen and soldiers were killed by the insurgents in the very first month of that "peaceful" revolution.

With sheer endless amounts of Gulf money Syrian soldiers were bribed to defect, unemployed rural youth and foreign mercenaries were hired to bring down the Syrian state. A year after the war on Syria started it was clear that there were no "moderates" fighting against the Syrian government but only radical Islamists. The NYT reported that CIA provided arms were flowing to them. The Defense Intelligence Agency noted in 2012 to the White House:

THE SALAFIST [sic], THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, AND AQI ARE THE MAJOR FORCES DRIVING THE INSURGENCY IN SYRIA. ... AQI SUPPORTED THE SYRIAN OPPOSITION FROM THE BEGINNING, BOTH IDEOLOGICALLY AND THROUGH THE MEDIA ...

Despite that the U.S. rejected peace offers brokered by Russia and the CIA significantly increased weapon provisions and the training of additional jihadis.

The DIA also remarked:

THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT, IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME, WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE STRATEGIC DEPTH OF THE SHIA EXPANSION (IRAQ AND IRAN)
...
ISI COULD ALSO DECLARE AN ISLAMIC STATE THROUGH ITS UNION WITH OTHER TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS IN IRAQ AND SYRIA,....

That the recruiting for and weaponization of the anti-Syrian forces continued after these warnings were issued confirms that the current results, the Islamic State Caliphate and al-Qaeda in Iraq and Syria, is the (more or less) intended outcome. The U.S. did not turn a blind eye to the issue but, as the Defense Intelligence Chief General Flynn said, took a "willful decisions" to facilitate this.

That "willful decision" is also the reason why many people doubt that the U.S. declared "fight against the Islamic State" is serious. The current U.S. attacks on IS target look more like an attempt to regulate its size and behavior than a serious war to defeat or eradicate it. The Saudis have flown 2.5 times more air attacks against Yemen within six month than the U.S. led coalition of 62 countries has flown against the Islamic State within a full year. Long known U.S. plans to reorganize the Middle Eastern borders along presumed sectarian and ethnic lines are regularly peddled by this or that high U.S. official or "expert".

It is obvious that the U.S. organized a sectarian revolt in Syria and in 2012 made the willful decision to further the growth of a sectarian Islamic State. It planned to partition Syria and Iraq and some surrounding countries into new sectarian entities.

That Kerry now says "Syria should be a unified country, united, that it needs to be secular" and "ISIL (Islamic State) needs to be taken on" is tantamount to admitting Obama's policy so far was always fundamentally wrong. If meant serious and backed by political and military means it is a huge turnaround.

Should this come to fruition it is not only the turn of the corner for Syria. It is the defeat of the failed neoconservative "democracy spreading" and neoliberal "responsibility to protect" infested ideologies in face of the straight realist policies represented by the Russian President Putin.

Posted by b on September 29, 2015 at 12:16 PM | Permalink

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This is a victory for patience and rationality over bluster and hubris.

Posted by: Crest | Sep 29, 2015 12:21:04 PM | 1

Now watch Obama get accused of caving in.

Posted by: dh | Sep 29, 2015 12:29:34 PM | 2

thanks b... i hope you are right in your positive conclusions.. the big if "If meant serious and backed by political and military" is a big if... we'll see how the next 1/2 year pan out..

Posted by: james | Sep 29, 2015 12:39:38 PM | 3


turning the corner
let us have know more of that phrase.
brookings and chatham house united service insitute
and tavistock.
they will write another plot.
when brezzinski kissinger the dog erdogan and nutty yahoo slip into ariel sharon coma.
when soros and rabbi rupurt murdoch and jacob rothschild get boston braked or heath ledgered.
only then will a corner be turned.
shaking the hand of a talmoo satanist cutting deals with masonic child rapists means less than nothing.
cutting deals for breathing room only.
cutting deals while neocon ziocons are still in place all show.
Sayeret Matkai and kidron teams no doubt already have been activated cut the turning of corners crap.
putin still not fired a bullet or dropped a bomb
those plastic photoshop planes need to be pretty dirty and dusted banged up before anything will change in this shit show.


until the traitorious live organ dealer turk erdogan and jewish king solomon of saud are neutralised syria will carry on being deconstructed.

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 29, 2015 12:45:57 PM | 4

just for the record: I´m still on medication but i think this is premature crap without any substance what so ever. Israel will come out on top, just wait and see.

Posted by: Hold.N.Coldfield | Sep 29, 2015 1:06:47 PM | 5

The US seems to have given an inch but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on the universal rebel demand that Assad must go, only the timing. If Putin can't or won't agree to Assad's guaranteed departure I doubt there will be any agreement.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 29, 2015 1:07:04 PM | 6

The US and allies' support for terrorist proxies must continually be exposed to AmeriKans - the folly of US foreign policy is and never was solely Democrat or Republican. Few would have believed how destructive the Hope 'n' Change guy would turn out to be - a George W. Bush for the left - just following the script like any actor until the curtain draws to a close and he can cash his check.

@4

"putin still not fired a bullet or dropped a bomb"

he didn't have to, his mere presence in Syria has done wonders for the morale of the SAA, as well as forcing the US to stand their policy on it's head.
As for israel and Saudi Arabia, playing sneaky games on the Russians ain't like fooling around with Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Sudan, etc. you get caught you get burned bad

Posted by: farflungstar | Sep 29, 2015 1:16:34 PM | 7

@Wayoutwiththetakfiris@6

The US seems to have given an inch but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on the universal rebel demand that Assad must go, only the timing. If Putin can't or won't agree to Assad's guaranteed departure I doubt there will be any agreement.

IS/AQ officially designated troll-spokesman for MoA, already knows that if "Putin can't or won't agree to Assad's departure" there is no deal in sight. His sources might go beyond the State Department to the dark allies inside the Beltway, or at the woods outside Langley.

And where is "the universal rebel demand that Assad must go" coming from? The only "universal" commonality of the cannibal takfiris is their division into myriad sectarian groups, which cannot even agree on a common road to get their supplies.

The "inch" the US gave is a recognition of its defeat with the strategic goals of, 1) Assad must go; 2) Partitioning Syria; 3) Installing a phony Sunni "caliphate," and the 70th UNGA marked the beginning of the end of the neo-zionazis policies of chaos and destruction in the ME.

You can be foaming at the mouth for years to come yelling "Assad must go," your trolling income about to end, but you and your masters are ready for a trip to the garbage heap of history.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 29, 2015 2:17:41 PM | 8

Sorry but these are just words from officials known to lie as frequently as they breathe. Now they see that their proxies (including ISIS) get stuck. The small scale but direct Russian presence and help will help the Syrians to get rid of these "guerillas" and hinder any direct support from Turkey and Israel. So the end is really in sight. The US has to acknowledge this fact (at least in words). Nevertheless, they try to pour gasoline to the fire as long as they can. By the way, the meaning of "peaceful transition" is the end of the current Syrian state, replaced by a puppet, doesn't matter whether that is secular or not. Now they try to pressure the Russians to accept something like this.

Posted by: Balu | Sep 29, 2015 2:39:07 PM | 9

Why would Kerrys endless lies about Ukraine - which is right on Russia's doorstep - be unbelievable and endlessly disproven, but Kerry's PR towards Russia re Syria are sincere ? If anyone can explain that dichotomy then you win the game of lies.

The idea that a political lies are used to hide intent, keep opposition off their game, and appear to be reasonable, etc. is beyond John Kerry, is not plausible. That Russia has won the short-term game of musical chairs of getting their military into Syria first has provoked the evil US empire into looking more reasonable than they really are. It's all a tactic to win the PR game.

And Kerry, is the man who after general Sisi was restored back to his mass murderers dictatorship in Egypt, refereed to that process as "restoring democracy". So yeah, that is the same guy we're talking about.

Posted by: tom | Sep 29, 2015 2:52:59 PM | 10

@8 lonewolf.. ain't that the truth.. thanks.

@10.. thanks tom.. i agree totally.. i remain extremely cynical and am not fooled by cheap words coming from expense suits..

Posted by: james | Sep 29, 2015 3:02:28 PM | 11

People already are accusing Obama of caving.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/28/leave-it-to-vlad-and-the-supreme-leader-obama-iraq-iran-middle-east/

This whole article is basically a howl of rage and pain. The Neocons are NOT happy. But there's only so much their sock puppet Barry Obama can do.

Posted by: Massinissa | Sep 29, 2015 3:06:22 PM | 12

ha, Kerry used the word *unitary*, that is a meme, a signal. In any case it is a done deal, as I have said *repeatedly.* The war in Syria will be wound down. Assad will remain in place (supposedly in transition, or whatever, guff for the gallery) until ‘the Syrian ppl can decide.’ That is for the future.

Why would Kerry’s endless lies about Ukraine - which is right on Russia's doorstep - be unbelievable and endlessly disproven, but Kerry's PR towards Russia re Syria are sincere ?

Because it is world politics and some fights can’t be won (Syria), capitulation or changin’ track has to be massaged, spun; and some other ventures can be maintained up to a point (Ukraine) in a kind of frozen conflict, until there, as well, the US will throw in the towel.

see for ex. 29 sept: U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has said that the Ukrainian crisis could potentially be resolved by cooperation.

“There is a potential to try to make progress in Ukraine, if everyone cooperates, he said on MSNBC TV.

The U.S. will continue to try to solve the Ukrainian issue within the framework of the Minsk agreements, Kerry said.

He also stressed the importance of the upcoming meeting of 'Normandy Four' (Germany, France, Ukraine and Russia) which is scheduled to take place on October 2 in Paris.”

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/293258.html

Is that sincere? No idea. Note what he did NOT say: We will support the demo-elect glorious Prez Poroshenko in his valiant worthy righteous fight against rabid Russian-rebel terrorists who are destroying his country - with all our heart, might, arms, etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 29, 2015 3:34:21 PM | 13

Let us see the reactions of Saudi Arabia pushing for a Sunni Wahhabi friendly Syrian government and Qatar and Turkey pushing for a Sunni Moslem Brotherhood government. Will they swallow Obama-Putin 'secular' announcement? In any case none can retaliate. Turkey is busy killing its own citizens who have a different ethnicity and Saudi Arabia is helping Yemenis to kill other Yemenis in the total indifference of the greedy Western countries, so happy to boost their economy by selling weapons.
Erdogan and King Salman must be boiling and I hope that their health will be affected. Gangster Erdogan and Hamster Davutoglu must disappear before they destroy what is left of the unity of Turkey. King Salman must go to an asylum and MBS should move permanently to Ascot.

Posted by: Virgile | Sep 29, 2015 3:38:06 PM | 14

This is the second time this US administration has been "told" to stop with the aggression on Syria.

While it may represent a turning point, it could also represent an escalation point, from which we have yet to see movement.

While there are lots of reasons for the global tensions, underlying them all is ongoing control of global finance by the private money plutocrats.

I will believe there is real change when some of the Western puppets for the global plutocrats are at the Hague being prosecuted for war crimes, private finance has been abolished and inheritance is being neutered by all countries throughout the world.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 29, 2015 4:16:42 PM | 15

Sayeret Matkal
(General Staff Reconnaissance Unit) is a special forces unit of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). First and foremost a field intelligence-gathering unit, conducting deep reconnaissance behind enemy lines to obtain strategic intelligence, Sayeret Matkal is also tasked with counter-terrorism and hostage rescue beyond Israel's borders. The unit is modeled after the British Army's Special Air Service, taking the unit's motto "Who Dares Wins". It is directly subordinate to the IDF's Directorate of Military Intelligence.

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 29, 2015 5:39:23 PM | 16

Muslim Brotherhood led the revolution against Hosni Mubarak in Egypt. Muslim Brotherhood was deposed and branded as terrorist by the current el-Sisi regime. This wesbite saw MB as heroes standing up to dictatorship in Egypt; why do you see them differently in Syria?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 29, 2015 5:55:00 PM | 17

I am skeptical like hold@5, wayoutwest@6, pyscho@15 (and many others, I'm sure).

Sounds like lip service. Didn't USA, Russia et al largely agree on the same previous to Russia's deployment?

=

What makes sense:

1) USA & allies push for guarantees and timetable for Assad's exit in exchange for their assistance against ISIS.

2) Russia, Iran & allies insist that Assad can not be forced out while he is needed to combat ISIS.

My expectation: no deal. USA & allies use this as an excuse to leave ISIS to Russia, Iran & Company. Sunni nations continue to support ISIS covertly (while USA, in turn, supports its "allies").

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 29, 2015 6:00:53 PM | 18

@14 Virgile

' Saudi Arabia is helping Yemenis to kill other Yemenis in the total indifference of the greedy Western countries, so happy to boost their economy by selling weapons. '

Missile attack on Yemen wedding kills 131

The missles and the planes that fired them came for the USA, from the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, and they were directed - maybe refueled - on the way home to wahabi terror central by the USA as well.

I hope the Russians' stand-up action to the Evil Empire actually has the results forecast. I hope the bully continues to crumble, not only in Syria but in Yemen, Iraq, Ukraine and all around the world wherever its evil actions continue to kill, maim, and lay to waste. At a trillion seven or eight the NPPL's program of DD&D is killing the USA as surely as it is killing everyone else on the planet.

I hope that by the time Russia assumes the presidency of the UNSC the import of Putin's forthright speech at the General Assembly has sunk in and that the UNSC itself is forced to repond to the emminently reasonable initiatives outlined along with the analysis therein.

It's a good day, fresh air, I've had another hit on the hopium hookah.

Posted by: jfl | Sep 29, 2015 6:00:55 PM | 19

jfl at 19

We get no hope, but we are offered a relentless rearrangement of deck chairs. "Here come the planes."

'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice.
And when justive is gone, there's always force.
And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom!...

So hold me, Mom, in your long arms.
Your petrochemical arms. Your military arms.
In your electronic arms.

Hi Mom!

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 29, 2015 6:39:28 PM | 20

You guys are fighting the LAST battle, but everything is changed. Syria is moving towards being resolved; so is Ukraine. That's what the interminable Iran nuke diplomacy was about.

Russia didn't force this change. US has had a factional strategy crisis, now resolved. Remember how Obama foreign policy seemed always in disarray, then January this year, astoundingly, honorary chair of CFR Leslie Gelb spoke up publicly. He advised Obama to fire his whole foreign policy staff, gave him a list of 4 Republican & 4 Dems, told him to stay in touch w "wise men" Brzezinsky, Kissinger, etc. Not one person on his list was hired! Kissinger spoke out publicly: no results. This was disarray among the ruling class! Contradictory factions were acting in Syria at the same time. When Chuck Hagel, Secy Defense, asked for written clarification of the policy, he was fired for it.

Faction A: The neocons, CIA, Petraeus, Gen'l Allen, Hillary, Nuland, McCain, etc pushing the aggression envelope that Bush Sr had started. "We are the unipolar King; let's do it NOW". But observe these are lackeys; none are rich & powerful. For whom did they act? Only Bush Sr really approached the rarified elite level. My guess is that the elite force behind them was whoever is behind Vanguard Corporation, because it is probably behind Ukraine. Buffet? http://rusvesna.su/recent_opinions/1432640071 It translates OK.

Faction B: Same NWO goal, but more prudently: "Let the masses go back to sleep, stop frightening all the govts. Use soft power, enhance the supranational econ & trade institutions, the UN programs and the global warming hoax. TTIP, etc. Let these bleed power & wealth from the nation-state into our control." Acting for this faction: Obama & at least those members of the military who objected to Allen, Rockefeller group. Pulled off honeypot against Petraeus & Allen, but cdn't make their disgrace stick, both re-emerged!

Within the Iran nuke diplomacy was an agreement for Russia to come in & help mop up Syria, Patriots disabled, but Erdogan, Israel, Allen, whoever controls certain media resisted & went nuts when Russia started deployment. Russians were baffled. Vitaly Churkin gave CBS interview Sept 16 & said "US doesn't really WANT Assad to fall."

Interestingly, Netanyahu explicitly & publicly gave in BEFORE Allen. Remember Netanyahu said it was OK for Iran to have a civilian nuke program BEFORE the Congressional vote. Allen had to be taken down w all that silly theatre about the failed "moderate" program which didn't even exist.

They are not going to seriously oppose what Russia is doing & Assad won't fall. It appears all is resolved in line w the original diplomacy. My summary of Thierry Meyssan's "inside track" of this diplomacy is at Moon's Sept 23 Comment 52 & there are links there.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 29, 2015 7:19:48 PM | 21

@15: AFP twitter
Here it is. KSA will not accept this. Military option?...only through proxies (no border) and any planes attacking the SAA will only able to do so once. Afterwards all syrian airspace will be closed unless asked nicely. Hope KSA realize the majority of the world will see this for what it is. KSA protecting its pet project ISIS/Nusra. On the other side, inbred royalty are not known for their smarts.

Posted by: Gehennah | Sep 29, 2015 7:44:26 PM | 22

Inkan1969 @17

This wesbite saw MB as heroes standing up to dictatorship in Egypt; why do you see them differently in Syria?

Muslim Brotherhood came to power through democratic elections in Egypt. Muslim Brotherhood attempted to come to power in Syria through violent Sunni sectarian revolution.

I think democracy, even the brief Saudi-Qatari-money-corrupted 'post-democratic' Egyptian version, would force whoever was in power to be more responsive to the actual needs of the mostly impoverished Egyptian population, compared to a Saudi-US-subordinate dictatorship. Moreover, if the MB were not responsive, then in a democracy they'd be under pressure to change, perhaps get voted out, perhaps be replaced by a more leftist/populist/sovereign government. I'm sure the democracy threat was first on the mind of Saudi Arabia and its CIA handlers. So democracy had to go!

Posted by: fairleft | Sep 29, 2015 7:57:55 PM | 23

Putin has really stood up to the plate ...


  1. UN history

  2. UN at present

  3. Learning from history

  4. ISIS in the middle east

  5. ISIS outside the middle east

  6. UN response to ISIS

  7. Muslim countries are key

  8. What can be done within the rule of law?

  9. Stop the violence, start the recovery

  10. Most desperate cases : Libya, Iraq, and Syria

  11. Cooperation, not confrontation

  12. Ukraine

  13. TPP, TTIP, and the secret economic diktat

  14. Harmony, not discord

  15. Planetwide realignment with Nature

  16. Voluntary, transparent, cooperation


His appeal to the Muslim states and Muslim spiritual leaders directly, his call for help with the recovery of the Muslim countries the US/EU have destroyed : Libya, Iraq, and Syria, his calling out the US economic diktat for exactly what it is, and - in your face USA - the call for planetary energy realignment ... from the poor, deindustrialized, resource-exporting-dependent, third-world Russia ... is a direct slap in the face to the other-peoples'-recource-controlling Evil Empire and a very bold and dramatic statement of Russian optimism and bona fides.

I think that's what should be in the news, rather than obfuscation and flat out lies from Barack the lying, murdering Nobel Pece Prize Laureate Obama.

Posted by: jfl | Sep 29, 2015 9:06:19 PM | 24

more like israels aman military group but anyway

Mossad has abducted a number of Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) commanders , diplomats and prominent officials at last Thursday's stampede near the holy city of Mecca.


http://awdnews.com/top-news/report-mossad-and-saudi%E2%80%99s-pre-coordinated-the-mina-stampede-to-abduct-key-members-of-the-iranian-revolutionary-guards-corps-irgc

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 29, 2015 9:38:30 PM | 25

@24 jfl - I was impressed he went after the secret trade deals a bit. I didn't even know that was on their radar. But its good politics within the US too.

@WoW

The US seems to have given an inch but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on the universal rebel demand that Assad must go, only the timing. If Putin can't or won't agree to Assad's guaranteed departure I doubt there will be any agreement.

How dense are you? The Russians already offered to broker a deal to have Assad leave in 2012. It was rejected. That was your favored side who "can't and won't" agree to accept Assad's departure, not Russia. Yet you dutifully burp up your propaganda, as those these things have never happened?

Can't you feel it all slipping away? You should. Your 100,000 rebels included. For fucks sake, man. Stop while you still can.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 29, 2015 10:07:33 PM | 26

Poroshenko really made a fool of himself at the UN. Luckily for him, I guess, attendance was very low.

How a man who has declared a sizable chunk of his citizens to be "terrorists" and launched a full on military and death squad assault on them dares to stand up and play the victim, I'll never know. Maybe WayOutWest is his speechwriter.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 29, 2015 10:10:52 PM | 27

Nice work, b.
You've kept your finger on the pulse of the Syria debacle from the beginning to the end (now). AmeriKKKa & "Israel's" Lunatics & Liars suddenly realised it was time to stop taking themselves so seriously when Xi, Vlad & Rouhani all read them the Riot Act at the UN. Oz's Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has said Oz is on board with the plan to preserve Assad. And she wouldn't have said that if she hadn't been told to say it by the King of Australia (the US Ambassador to Oz) since the 1970s.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 29, 2015 10:19:03 PM | 28

The Russians have humbled the USA, now the gringos will be looking for a way to hurt Russia in some way or another.
Sanctions? Nope, fresh out.
War? Nope, already got a one going in Ukraine, tried to start one in Chechnya, one in Syria.
Color Revolution?
Nope, Russians luuuuuuuuuuuv them some Putin.
What can the USA do to hurt Russia now??????

Posted by: Fernando | Sep 29, 2015 10:46:18 PM | 29

Inkan1969 @17 has a good point. The Muslim Brotherhood Egyptian government put out a call for Egyptians to volunteer to fight Assad in Syria. A week later Sisi saw enough and deposed Morsi. I was conflicted at the time -- do we support a military coup that deposed a legally elected government or do we support that legally elected government that has decided to join the Jihad to depose the Assad regime?

In retrospect, the world is better off with Morsi in jail and Sisi ruling Egypt. It was clear within a few weeks after the Arab Spring movement erupted in Syria that it was dominated by Islamist terrorists. It is weird to still hear so called progressives in the West still referring to that insurrection as a "spontaneous people's movement". We should know by now that US imperialism does not support spontaneous people's movements.

Posted by: ToivoS | Sep 29, 2015 10:55:18 PM | 30

Vicky Nuland of Kagan Weenie - ever the stateswoman - was overheard mumbling something classy - sounded like "Fuck Russia".

Posted by: fast freddy | Sep 29, 2015 11:17:02 PM | 31

@25 charles drake, thanks for the link!

I don't see this as boding to well long term for the Saudi regime.

I wonder what tactical information could be obtained from the IRGC folks that would justify the potential risk of such a scheme?

How is Iran going to respond?

This seems desperate on the part of Israel, doesn't it? I guess we are at the stage of social devolution.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 29, 2015 11:24:44 PM | 32

The US is having a bad day....

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-09/30/c_134672909.htm

Here is the title to the link:

Pentagon caught surprised by Iraq's intelligence-sharing accord with Russia, Iran, Syria

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 30, 2015 12:00:40 AM | 33

@charles drake@25

Thanks for the link, Charles. So it means Hajj has become a trap for the Iranians and any other group/nationality the degenerate saudis consider an enemy or non-muslims. The criminal saudis share their DB with the zio-nazis, create an incident where innocents die, only to justify the kidnapping/disappearance of IRGC commanders, diplomats and what not, for intel purposes. Hopefully the Iranians will respond in kind, and it will not be pretty.

@guest77@27

Maybe WayOutWest is his speechwriter.

Man, you made my evening. Actually, you're not so far off, the guy has to look for a new line of work, his time is up as IS/AQ official troll.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30, 2015 12:16:21 AM | 34

Funny the reasons I couldn't post. I thought it was the word "p-e-d-o," short for pedophiles, but it also was the word "l-o-l" that is blocked by b's tight filters. I was getting a bit paranoid, that with Snowden last revelations about the No Such Agency having a file on every person who uses internet. In any event, I finally posted.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30, 2015 12:22:06 AM | 35

@25 and @32

Here is a follow on link to the above comments about reported extended family concerns in the house of Saud

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-29/saudi-prince-calls-royal-coup

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 30, 2015 12:25:53 AM | 36

@guest77 #27 - Poroshenko is one of the few people who see though the propaganda veil. He understands that no words matter, only silhouettes. He simply has to stand where's he's told, and he lives and drinks another day. Meanwhile he steals everything within the grasp of human ingenuity. He may even get out of this alive, to live out his days an incredibly rich man.

All events within Ukraine can be parsed in terms of crime, as I'm sure you understand. They're all thieves, and everything happens as a score. National or state-oriented thinking is not a part of tactics, and we all make the same mistake when we try to see the "realpolitik" logic in Ukraine's actions.

But this is a Syria thread, and Russia's day in the sun. I only mention this because the Ukraine issue has been solved in the slipstream of the Syria issue. Putin's call to action is for the rightness of the law, and who can gainsay this when soldiers march in obedience to it? Pretty soon, when the day is right, we'll see some major enforcement of Minsk 2. And it'll happen with the blessing of a UN that Putin has saved from irrelevance.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 30, 2015 12:30:04 AM | 37

in re 25 --

This site was the source of the bogus report that Putin told Erdogan Syria would be his Stalingrad. See this telling disclaimer above the headline: "The authentication of this report can be investigated."

I did a little investigating, I cannot authenticate it. AWD, for example, provides no link to its underlying source, either the particualr article or the general website. The Putin item similarly lacked a link to its alleged source, The Moscow Times.

And I wonder, is it accidental that they bring up the Russians?

In a time that EU diplomats have altogether rejected the authenticity of this report, there is rising speculation that Russians leaked this information to western intelligence agencies.

The high falutin stylin’ and vaguely anti-semitic word salad of your early posts got me curious. Folks noms de plume typically say something about the real-world poster (even if it's not immediately obvious).

You were lord charles drake there for a bit, I googled it expecting some hoary old Little Englander nobleman, or perhaps an obscure barrister or physician. But this was about all I could find; I wonder, is this our Lord Charles Drake? Charles Edward Francis Drake?

A fake southern aristocrat “ennobled” as a fake English aristocrat? But yet, a member of the Society of the Cincinnati?

I'm thinking it could be so. The postings betray a certain erudition.

I had to look up what the "Donmeh" meant, for example. The Donmeh were Sunni "conversos" from Judaism. Like Spanish Jews who formally converted to escape the Inquisition after 1492, they formally converted to avoid the indignities of second-class status the Koran affords to non-believers. Wiki says they were a Turkish movement most active in Asia Minor and Greece; I doubt they got much traction amongst the traditional Arab pastoralists of the Arabian Peninsula.

So I take the postings less as statements of fact or analysis than as evocations of a mood. Not a particularly pleasant one, IMHO. But to each their own.

If our Wahabist "Custodians of the Two Holy Mosques" really are Jews (highly unlikely) I think they're trying a bit too hard to pass.

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 30, 2015 12:32:38 AM | 38

"The US seems to have given an inch but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on the universal rebel demand that Assad must go, only the timing. If Putin can't or won't agree to Assad's guaranteed departure I doubt there will be any agreement."

If Kerry says Assad must go, but the timing is negotiable, that's tantamount to accepting Assad indefinitely. There's no reason the timing couldn't be pushed back for years to come. Lots of handy potential explanations: "We will tolerate Assad for now, until Syria is more completely stabilized." Not sure what the rebels demand is actually relevant without western backing, or even with western backing, given Putin's commitment to defend Assad.

Posted by: RudyM | Sep 30, 2015 12:33:38 AM | 39

@Grieved@39

Thanks for a very fine post. Ukraine/Syria, two sides of the same coin. No doubt Ukraine events will be affected by the current developments in Syria. No doubt Ukraine is at the forefront of Russia's historical and security concerns. And here you can bring any issue in any thread, what matters is its relevancy.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30, 2015 12:49:37 AM | 40

Grieved at 39 --

Pretty astute overall, "no words, only silhouettes" was pretty slick. He's NATO's Legitimately Elected President Doll.

I would disagree with some details, however. State-building is just a tactic for them, not a strategy, so nothing really gets built amongst all the thievery. The post-Soviet privatizations throughout the former Union were perhaps the worlds greatest thefts.

That an accommodation might pull the Ukraine in it's path is a stretch. First, it presumes this rapproachment will actually occur; wasn't it supposed to have happened at Sochi earlier? The neocons might still be able to force Obama to keep at it - "he's appeasing Putin." Our erstwhile allies in Istanbul, Riyadh and the Gulf might have plans of their own as well.

The next important data point could be early November, after the Turkish elections. Will AKP get the super-majority it needs to change the constitution to a more presidential system? Do they ratchet up or down in Syria?

errata at 40 -- "'Donmeh' Saudi Monarchy"

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 30, 2015 12:58:51 AM | 41

Rufus Magister -- I can confirm from personal experience that the Saudi royal family are secretly Jews. I was working with a group of Saudis on a project directly sponsored by the royal family. As they started to trust me, they revealed that they were involved in occult secret societies in the Kingdom sponsored by the princes -- societies that follow the Kabbalah. I was shocked and started doing research. That is when I discovered that Saudis are descended from Iraqi Jews, and that the founder of Wahhabism was connected to the Donmeh Jews of Turkey.

And no, the Donmeh did not convert to Islam to escape alleged second class treatment in Muslim countries. In both Islamic Spain and the Ottoman Empire, Jews were rich and powerful and were ministers of state. The Donmeh (also called Sabbateans) were fanatical occultists who used Kabbalah for their own bizarre ends. They followed the false messiah Sabbatai Zevi who converted to Islam in the 17th century as part of a self-professed intention to infiltrate and take over the religion from within. Condemned as black magician by other Jews, Sabbatai was excommunicated by the rabbis of Istanbul and his followers see orthodox Jews as heretics, so they hate normative Judaism as much as they do Christianity and Islam. The Sabbateans also launched a plan to infiltrate the Catholic Church through the efforts of Jacob Frank, who claimed to the be the reincarnation of Sabbatai Zevi in 18th century Poland.

After my encounter with modern-day Saudi Donmeh, I was stunned to learn that Saddam Hussein had been trying to prove the Saudi Jewish connection before he was overthrown.

Here are Wayne Madsen's extensive reports on the history of the Donmeh and their power inside modern Saudi Arabia. I understand if you are skeptical. I would not have believed any of this unless I had encountered it directly myself.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/25/the-doenmeh-the-middle-easts-most-whispered-secret-part-i.html

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/26/the-doenmeh-the-middle-easts-most-whispered-secret-part-ii.html

Posted by: VictorK | Sep 30, 2015 2:05:52 AM | 42

This will fit nicely here. 2014 MIT report on the "intelligence failure" that almost led to the US attacking Syria
http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/981/files/2015/09/A-possible-implications-of-bad-intelligence.pdf
(Lloyd R. et Postol T., « Possible Implications of Faulty US Technical Intelligence in the Damascus Nerve Agent Attack of August 21, 2013 » Cambridge, MIT, Global Security Working Group, janvier 2014)

Posted by: Mina | Sep 30, 2015 2:55:37 AM | 43

@28 hoarse

Got a link to Xi's and/or Rouhani's speeches at the GA?

Posted by: jfl | Sep 30, 2015 3:27:43 AM | 44

13

"Note what (Kerry) did NOT say: We will support the demo-elect glorious Prez Poroshenko in his valiant worthy righteous fight against rabid Russian-rebel terrorists who are destroying his country - with all our heart, might, arms, etc. "

Note what (Kerry) DID say: We will backstop those IMF loans underwriting the illegal Kiev Junta's junk bonds, using US taxpayer dollars the RINO Congress already looted last July, $58B worth, so when the Marcos-Khashoggi-Bush-Carlucci junk bond privatization 'scheme' that liquidated Soviet oil and gas has completed its privatization course for Ukrainian public lands and resources, they will, of course, default into Poroshenko's piggy bank.

IMF will get the 30T of gold bullion looted from Ukraine for underwritten original bonds, and US taxpayers will pay for the illegally-leveraged Kiev junk bonds layered up on top of the IMF asset-backed bonds. Amazing they pulled off the same 'scheme' as Papa Bush did, and nobody even noticed~! Everyone is focused on that 'shiney object', MH17, just like everyone was focused on WTC7, when the Bush junk bonds were illegally swapped out for US Treasuries in the 'relaxed market controls' days immediately after 911.

For all we know, the Syria 'scheme' is just a massive Ukrainian arms-running operation, ala Iran-Contra, to create more privatization junk bonds to liquidate the entire Ukraine state, and for that matter, Mission Mars may be the beginning of a massive Ukrainian rocket-motor operation for the same purpose. Kerry-Kohn is laughing on the phone with Poroshenko, that he even got Matt Damon into the act with 'Martians'. Haww, haww, haww. Mr. Bourne himself.

Like Chipnik says, 'It's just business, get over it.'

Like Deep Throat said, 'Follow the money'.

Everything else is party favors.

Posted by: AHammer | Sep 30, 2015 5:52:46 AM | 46

@26 Guest77


... As part of our national contribution, we plan to reduce by 2030 the greenhouse emmissions to 70-75% of the 1990 level. I suggest, however, we should take a wider view on this issue.

Yes, we might defuse the problem for awhile by setting quotas on harmful emissons or by taking other measures, which are nothing but tactical, but we will not solve it that way. We need a completely new approach.

We have to focus on introducing fundamental and new technologies inspired by nature which will not damage the environment but will be in harmony with it. Also they will allow us to restore the balance between the biosphere and technosphere upset by human activities.


I haven't heard anyone say anything like that. It's not quite, "Developing new energy sources and ending the burning of fossil fuels by the end of this decade." but its closer than anything anyone else has said. And coming in the context of a planetary effort via the UN it's outstanding. And, it's comong from a nation that has a lot to "lose" in pushing for it.

Pepe Escobar remarks that his words may be suppressed or ignored in the "advanced economies" ... sounds like advanced cancer, doesn't it ... but that the whole speech will echo in "the South" ... where all the people are. I hope he's right. I hope his calls along all the lines he's laid out are attended to and pursued. Hard work in hope is better than the danse macabre of the West to anyone but a corporate slave.

Posted by: jfl | Sep 30, 2015 6:04:47 AM | 47

That program is toast but the real question is if the "secret" CIA run program, which is vastly more extensive, is also suspended. My hunch is that it is

my hunch is that it isn't.

heinous, barbaric crimes against humankind are strictly required by psychopathic etiquette.

so, heads up for the 'new' redirection!

'fascists only relinquish power when it is pried from their cold, dead hands.'

Posted by: john | Sep 30, 2015 6:21:17 AM | 48

Russia effectively becomes the [untouchable] air support to the Syrian Arab Army.

Russia would use its warplanes to hit terrorist targets when requested by the Syrian government. He stressed that unlike the US-led coalition of countries that bombs militant troops in Syria, Russia was invited to do so by the legal authorities of Syria and thus follows international law.

There won't be an indefinite timetable to the bombing campaign, however, so my guess is that Russia has an end game in sight. That is a lasting diplomatic settlement in Syria by, among other things, convincing the likes of Turkey/Israel to back off.

Posted by: never mind | Sep 30, 2015 6:30:08 AM | 49

Is it really wise for Russia to engage in the war?
Very VERY easy to get stuck/fail as the american have done repeatedly.

Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 6:30:39 AM | 50

rufus stufus are you a jewisher nothing wrong with that.everyone has to make a living
some with sweat others theft.

i do not try to hard
i do not try at all
i get banned from forums a lot
must be doing something right
am i right or am i wrong.


david sterling told me all about the sick corrupted rabbinical house saud
old bean
did not believe at the time sounded hare brained or hairbrained
david sterling who set up and ran his own private army.
the queens own mercenaries
who dares wins
without which the donmeh satanick jewish house of saud would not exist.

talmud butcher blood lust house of saud same thing same satanic club.

rufus stufus
sir charles to you dolt


Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30, 2015 7:02:11 AM | 51


more dead than on the 9 and 11 talmud ritual yet very little news funny that.


A stampede during one of the last rituals of the Hajj season killed more than 4,173 people and left 2,000 wounded.
"Many of these pilgrims are the Iraqi and Iranian officials who have been abducted."

He further asked the Saudi officials to account for the disappearance of 400 Hajj pilgrims during the Mina incident.


Iraqi Official: Riyadh Plotted Mina Tragedy to Abduct Iranian, Iraqi Officials

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13940707001697

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30, 2015 7:10:31 AM | 52

The US supplied the iraqi army with arms BEFORE 2006. These were part of an effort to "train up" the iraqi army. But these arms got spread around the entire Middle East and that included Turkey & Lebanon.

The result was that Hezbollah used some of those same US arms to shoot at the Israëli army when it invaded the south of Lebanon in 2006.

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 30, 2015 7:43:18 AM | 53

Citizen Drake --

O'll take that as a "yes." No titles of nobility are permitted under the Constitution. You blew your bread on your Magical Kingdom.

VictorK --

Part I of Madsen might be on the up and up, Wiki noted their involvement in the Young Turks. But the reliance of the sources in Part II on "secret" info seems dubious. How can the same movement be into liberal reforms and the darkest obscurantism.

Forgive me if I am disinclined to trust your personal assurances about secret conversations with unidentified persons.

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 30, 2015 8:02:19 AM | 54

Forgive me if I am disinclined to trust your personal assurances about secret conversations with unidentified persons.

what we have in syria is classic british military play
frank kitson pseudo gang
david sterling hit and run
these techniques have been vital for country take down takeover
is it important that rufus stufus believes not at all.
for rufus is a doofus.

what was and is the house of saud but a british mi conceit a jewish in joke expanded yes so the yanks and tel aviv could have tons and pounds of flesh.
a tool of kosher forces for controlled demolition of countries and scapegoating a religion

what has this house done with the remnant history remains in country what have they done to mecca and medina more concrete than disneyland.


burnt ancient texts found burnt and dumped down drains anything ancient deleted erased.
tel aviv does not need to sanction erasure of history for oded yinon in arabia felix the jewish house of saud had the plans long ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

i am a big fan of art projects just not the 9 and 11 kosher variety.

Thoughts on the WTC Artists
http://www.markdotzler.com/Mark_Dotzler/WTC_Artists.html

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30, 2015 8:33:57 AM | 55

@58 oui

One has to pay to read the Haaretz article. If you're going link to pay-to-view websites ... in Isreal? ... I was going to say cut and paste, but forget the whole thing ... BDS Israel!

Posted by: jfl | Sep 30, 2015 9:02:42 AM | 57

@59 jfl

It wasn't when I read article a few minutes before ... another source here.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 30, 2015 9:42:37 AM | 58

@ Mina

Wonder which country ( KSA,Qatar, Lebanon -where Hariri is a puppet of KSA) has promised FLANBY bags of petrodollars for the upcoming French presidential election in 2017. I guess the king maker Bongo can't do it through FrancAfrique ( the father did it but not the son) , Gaddhafi is dead ( but Sarkozy benefited and it is still an on-going drama ) or may be Hollande has another GF other than the Comedienne somewhere in a political salon in Paris 16.

Posted by: Yul | Sep 30, 2015 9:50:53 AM | 60

A video of Russian-supplied aircraft and helicopters filmed recently on the ground at Latakia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeL1kdtrnQg

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 30, 2015 10:02:40 AM | 61

"This whole article is basically a howl of rage and pain. The Neocons are NOT happy. But there's only so much their sock puppet Barry Obama can do." Massinissa @ 12

Agreed. There is a palpable feel that the Greater Israel project may have hit the rocks. Ordinary (in the Israeli sense) Israelis are publicly calling for a Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem. THese views are well know for extreemist rabbis and politicians, but the extreme is become the norm in Israel.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/09/29/israeli-advocates-palestinian-holocaust/

I would like to see the countless XXXFriendsOfIsrael explain this away. The 'bad' apple' excuse has never cut it.

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 30, 2015 10:16:01 AM | 62

Russia going into this war is most likely the most stupid interventions since the Soviet time, if US couldnt stop ISIS from the air nor will Russia.This will end up like Afghan war for Russia.

Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 10:31:36 AM | 63

The lying Times ed says that Russian intervention in Syria will inflame the situation.sheesh.
And an arms ship was seized in the Yemeni area,they say it was a non nation state actor.Hahahahhahah;That means its Israeli or Saudi.

Posted by: dahoit | Sep 30, 2015 10:34:01 AM | 64

Game over, motherfuckers! Go get them Putin.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Sep 30, 2015 10:40:19 AM | 65

At the UN Saudi Arabia quickly punched holes in Putin's hot air balloon even as the US appeared to go along for the ride. They will accept any political solution that follows the 2012 UN plan where Assad steps aside while a transition government rules, they even give him a month to leave the country.

Anything short of that demand is unacceptable and they promise that increased arms will soon flow to the rebels and the war will continue indefinitely. The US and others can cut off supplies to rebel forces but it will have little effect with the Saudi supplying what is needed.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 30, 2015 10:51:21 AM | 66

Russia going into this war is most likely the most stupid interventions since the Soviet time, if US couldnt stop ISIS from the air nor will Russia.This will end up like Afghan war for Russia.

thanks for that really very very funny..
at the bare min putin should be able to wipe out and burn all those white new toyota pick up trucks yes no
make some holes in those hollywood costume prada black isis rabbi outfits splash some blood on those pure white nike sneakers.
get some dirt on those tel aviv actors beards.
maybe putin should invite rita katz rabbi rupurt murdoch and the chabad certifried vice media network to hd film this real russian event.
they must promise to only shoot reality no cnn anderson cooper green screen


a nice comment posted on zerohedge.


The human animal has fear centers that radiate out from around brain’s amygdala area. (Not 100% consensus on this area – but it seems to be implicated.) Human animal brain dreams up scepters and ghosts and monsters, and these fears can give fight or flight.

Hippocampus centers of brain tamp down scepters, as the logical mind says to the hind-mind, shut up, you are out of line.

Putin effectively went straight for hippocampus of Western mind by going to both press and leaders. He also worked to get Syrian authority in a legal fashion, which also appeals to the hippocampus. This authority was given tacit sanction from the west, which means war-mongering generals in the West, and their over-active fear centers, have been collared.

A double effect now, as European leaders will come to see Russia as rational actor, while America and Zion as irrational actor.

Of course, if one digs even a little at Talmud, it is obviously end product of psychopathy emanating from brain fear centers, and has nothing to do with a loving God, but instead one that panders to the baser animal instincts…the fear centers. Talmud/Cabala is an animating force, along with credit money power, that makes the West malfunction. When Russia was bolshevized it too was not acting in its best interests, but instead acted in accordance with the parasites wishes. Russia has since ejected its parasite and/or boxed it in.

It is no wonder the west is now becoming the psychopathic “animal” and Russia/China the higher civilized mind; the organizing philosophy of civilizations are now conflict.

Perhaps the massive unwanted immigration, and Russia’s “saving” of Europe will be a piece that helps break Zion’s parasitic grip. Euro-peons might finally wake from their slumber and realize they have been hosted; that Zion is really only interested in satisfying it’s fear centers. There is enough residual good will in Europe that Putin’s strategy will win out, and the fear mongers will be sent packing.

Russia wins…again. Right is might. Russia now has both legal authority and moral authority.

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30, 2015 11:07:25 AM | 67

President Trump may be offering the best plan for Syria, he recommended the US pull out of the conflict and let Russia take over the fight against the Islamic State. The US could then move on to containing China and leave Russia with decades of conflict in the ME, all the costs and another defeat at the hands of Islamists.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 30, 2015 11:10:16 AM | 68

Already reported, nevertheless two links in the article debunking...
Russia launches air strikes in Syria
By Andrew Osborn and Phil Stewart
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/30/us-mideast-crisis-russia-idUSKCN0RU0MG20150930
Related Coverage
› Russian strikes killed civilians: Syrian opposition
and
Related Coverage
› Foreign-backed Syrian rebel group says hit by Russian air strikes
› Russia targets Syria opposition groups, not Islamic State: French source

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 30, 2015 11:24:02 AM | 69

Russia will not be mired in ME conflict like in 1980's Afghanistan. For one thing: ISIS has been funded in a clandestine manner. Any further support for ISIS will spill the beans on "The West". Russia is already demonstrating that it is not difficult to take out Madison Avenue's ISIS. Russian success against ISIS will improve, once funding is cut off. US has had to openly deny ISIS in front of the world, "I never had sex with that woman."

Mujahideed was openly supported.

Posted by: fast freddy | Sep 30, 2015 11:32:10 AM | 70

okie farmer

Like I said earlier, russia putting itself in trouble by this useless bombing.

Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 11:33:23 AM | 71

Charles Drake @25 Regarding possibility of important kidnappings during the stampede: Wd've been difficult for kidnappers during the press of the stampede, but I suppose it cd've been done in areas where people were not actually being crushed. Hope you'll follow this story for us, to see if anything more turns up.

On 2nd thought, the RUSSIANS may have leaked this to Western intelligence sources?! Counter-intuitive given recent contracts, talks about oil price, etc.

--
Psychohistorian @ 38,
It has occurred to my paranoid mind that the Saudis were talking to Russia about an oil agreement to raise the price, and had given large contracts to the Russians. THEN the govt is suddenly under attack w the letter campaign, the possibly-manufactured stampede and the harmful story of Saudi-complicity-Haj-stampede. Complicit w none other than Israel. During the Haj (major no no).
Of course the inference we're given is that a new leadership wd take action to raise oil prices, but we don't KNOW that, do we?

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 11:35:04 AM | 72

jfl @24,

Thanks for the point-summary of Putin's speech. I was impressed w "Do you see what you have done?" content. And like you, w denigration of "exclusivity" of TPP. Of course their exclusivity is the least of what's wrong w TPP, TTIP, etc.-- but I'm sure Putin knows that.
Pity he gave lip-service to the manmade climate-change hoax.
To criticize trade exclusivity and secrecy was good, but to do it by way of praising "WTO principles" less so.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 11:36:11 AM | 73

Here's the most debunking link from the Reuters piece:

France said it was "curious" that Russian air strikes in Syria on Wednesday had not targeted Islamic State militants and a diplomatic source added that Moscow's action appeared aimed at supporting President Bashar al-Assad against other opposition groups in the country's civil war.

The diplomatic source said it was in line with Russia's stance since 2012 that until there was a viable alternative to Assad, Moscow would not drop its support for him in the war that began in 2011 after a government crackdown on anti-Assad protests.

"Russian forces struck Syria and curiously didn't hit Islamic State," Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told lawmakers.

A French diplomatic source said the strikes, which seemed to have been carried out near Homs, an area crucial to Assad's control of western Syria.

"It is not Daesh (Islamic State) that they are targeting, but probably opposition groups, which confirms that they are more in support of Bashar's regime than in fighting Daesh," the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"We shall see what they do with their other strikes," the source said.

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 30, 2015 11:57:58 AM | 74

Grieved @39

"But this is a Syria thread, and Russia's day in the sun. I only mention this because the Ukraine issue has been solved in the slipstream of the Syria issue. Putin's call to action is for the rightness of the law, and who can gainsay this when soldiers march in obedience to it? Pretty soon, when the day is right, we'll see some major enforcement of Minsk 2. And it'll happen with the blessing of a UN that Putin has saved from irrelevance."

Wow! Just when I thought your writing couldn't possibly improve any more:

"Ukraine issue has been solved in the slipstream of the Syria issue."

I think your understanding of what's occurring exceeds PCR's and your ability to express it certainly does. I hope you are considering articles for publication.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 12:00:02 PM | 75

Another bullshit piece:
Russian strikes killed civilians: Syrian opposition leader

Russian air strikes in Syria on Wednesday killed at least 36 civilians and targeted areas where Islamic State and al Qaeda-linked fighters are not present, the head of the Western-backed Syrian political opposition said.

"All the targets in today's Russian air raid over northern Homs were civilians," Khaled Khoja, head of the Turkey-based Syrian National Coalition, wrote on his Twitter feed.

Khoja, who is in New York for a U.N. General Assembly meeting, said the civilians had been killed in five different areas.

"The targeted areas in today's Russian air raid in Homs were those areas which fought ISIL and defeated it a year ago," he said, using an acronym for Islamic State.

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 30, 2015 12:01:58 PM | 76

Putin has been extremely smart. He got Kerry to agree on a 'secular' Syria, which implicitly outlaws all the rebels seeking an Islamist state or associated with Islamist terrorist groups.
Any rebel group working with Al Nusra is now an acceptable target of bombing.
Thus Russia is forcing the 'rebels' who call themselves moderates to totally dissociate themselves from the openly Islamic groups, or risk to be killed by air strikes. The Russian way of 'vetting'. The trouble is probably that not many of the FSA will pass the test.
Russia hasn't wait. It has already bombed the Army of Conquest in Idlib that is known to be close to Al Nusra. This has infuriated Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia who are the main supporters of this group.
No wonder Saudi Arabia and Qatar have suddenly upped their threat of using military force on Bashar al Assad. France has sided with his best weapon buyer Saudi Arabia and is targeting Bashar Al Assad in a war crime procedure
These all appear as signs of increased frustration and impotence.
Putin is a brilliant mind and these countries have shown they are not at the level

Posted by: Virgile | Sep 30, 2015 12:22:57 PM | 77

here's some bullshit from a neocon:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34371501

By Charles Lister
Visiting Fellow, Brookings Doha Center
~~~
Russia's claim that its forces are there only to target Islamic State should be taken with a large grain of salt. While it is clearly hostile to jihadists, Moscow is well-known for viewing Syria's entire armed opposition as uniformly Islamist and a danger to international security.

While al-Qaeda, IS and other like-minded groups have certainly consolidated themselves as powerful actors in Syria, such sweeping assessments are patently false.
~~~
Unfortunately, Russia's intervention comes as US policy on Syria has fallen to an all-time low. After its first batch of "trained and equipped" rebels were kidnapped, killed and forced to flee by al-Qaeda in late July, its second batch handed al-Qaeda half their vehicles and 25% of their ammunition upon entering the country several days ago.

To label the mission a catastrophic failure would be a generous assessment.
~~~
Amid recent geopolitical machinations, one simple reality appears to have been forgotten or purposefully ignored: Assad is not and should never be seen as a better alternative to IS.

From the very first days of the revolution, Assad and his intelligence apparatus have consistently facilitated the rise of jihadists. This policy of aiding and abetting jihadist militants and manipulating them for Damascus' policy interests is a well-established Assad family practice, dating back at least to the 1990s.

and more such bullshit...

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 30, 2015 12:29:17 PM | 78

Just a lurker here on the most informative blog on the Internet. Thank you all for enlightening the rest of us. Charles Drake----I could read your stuff all day long.

Posted by: David2222 | Sep 30, 2015 12:30:16 PM | 79

@78

The Russian's smart weapons and intelligence doesn't seem to be any more discriminating than the US's and few hearts and minds will applaud their first display of Bug Splat.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 30, 2015 12:31:33 PM | 80

France was not warned in advance of Russian air strikes in Syria today, it has emerged, although Israel - along with the US - was given advance notice.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

So Laurent Fabius is mad , I tell us, and right away added his voice to growing concerns that there are "signs that the Russian strikes did not target Daesh [Isil]."
Party Pooper !!!

Posted by: Yul | Sep 30, 2015 12:43:16 PM | 81

"But, US ally Saudi Arabia, which has long been one of the strongest Assad opponents, said that it would begin considering military action to oust him if he did not step down."

it is interesting how this group of un-elected fanatics running saudi arabia never think about stepping down themselves.. instead they chop off heads of anyone who disagrees with their bullshit, murder innocent yemeni and have the audacity to call for assad to step down.. i guess if assad was sunni, or wahhabi it would obviously be a different story.. what a group of freaks the white robbed sheikhs in sa are!

Posted by: james | Sep 30, 2015 12:51:24 PM | 82

Charles @69

It's quite funny how a staged propaganda photo-op of a few dozen white Toyotas leaving Mosul after the Islamic State victory still causes some people to squirm and protest the unfairness of this reality. Don't expect the IS to line up their transportation in columns so the enemy can easily destroy them, they were just tickling your hippocampus with that display and it apparently worked.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 30, 2015 1:01:47 PM | 83

#62
The answer is the 3 of them. Without Qatar/KSA buying its assets here and there (shares, football team, buildings in Vienna) France would be bankrupt. Hariri probably plays the middle man, that's the only thing Lebanese can do.

Posted by: Mina | Sep 30, 2015 1:01:51 PM | 84

Mina @45,

Thanks for posting the MIT link backing up the falsity of blaming Syrian forces for the "chemicattack" in E Ghouta. You're right that the interesting part is the US false intelligence implicating Syrian govt forces. It's reminiscent of the recent doctored intelligence sent to the White House indicating fictitious progress against ISIS, so that purposeful no-progress cd continue to be hidden.

In light of recent disclosure of two US contradictory factions acting simultaneously in Syria I now understand better what was occurring at the time of the "chemattack":

At that time, our alternative media seemed unanimous in believing that Obama was foaming at the mouth in his desire to bomb Syria. It seemed to me that this was not so, that his timing of statements and delays seemed rather to beg "Somebody stop me!" The British failure to support the bombing was another clue to the presence of a 2nd faction resisting the "neocon" push to destroy Syria.

The reasons for resistance to the bombing in August of 2013 weren't and still aren't clear to me. Was it because the "chemattack" false flag-- or even hoax-- was of such poor evidentiary quality that it would quickly be exposed after the fact? Or due to the Russian & Chinese ships standing offshore, which wd permit accurate air targeting by the Syrians?

Or did a more prudent US faction simply want to go on degrading the Syrian govt & country-- ala Straussian chaos-- w/o ever causing full collapse? Prince Bandar Bush had been out of commission since July of 2012 due to the assassination attempt, so that control of the jihadis had already slipped into Erodogan's hands. It was therefore possible that the US was already trying to avoid increasing the Caliphate power with which Erdogan is greatly in sympathy as a part of his Ottoman expansion.

Then as now, a Mid-East divided between Iranian control and an Israeli/Saudi coalition may have seemed more predictable than enhancing wild-card Turkey, which may be slated to be broken up rather than enhanced.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 1:18:58 PM | 85

Some people here need to come to their senses, plese tell me how Russia somehow could destroy ISIL? Its not realistic.

Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 1:32:02 PM | 86

he Russian's smart weapons and intelligence doesn't seem to be any more discriminating than the US's and few hearts and minds will applaud their first display of Bug Splat.

who has been providing rabbi rupurt murdoch with the isis film shows all along?
a leather face yahudi named rita katz and her motley intel group.
providing hd video ready for bbc sky fox broadcast before the event.
like bbc kosher asset jane stanley reading collapse tales of building 7
29 minutes before it went down into own footprint.
reading scripts and watching images of future events how clever

pixelated talmudick programmed plato's cave
for the medicated goy.

the news man said it was a russian bomb today
a missile.
it must of been murdoch said so.
you saw the pictures heard the words like a drama tv show and put 2 and 2 together.

i heard on the grape vine putin dropped turnips today and other vegatables of the root genus.
it was from a very reliable sauce source no bombs just fresh veg.
no fruit went in today
are you right or am i wrong.

Distortion of Truth by Association

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iAecAtJVdE

Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30, 2015 1:33:30 PM | 87

psychohistorian @ 38

The intrigue around the Saudi family raises some serious questions, related to whether the mass deaths from the stampede and crane collapse were false flag, or enemy action, or spontaneous accident. My guess would be foreign sponsored mayhem. A palace coup scenario to remove the Saudi King strongly suggests outside encouragement, with promises of support. The important secondary target (ignoring the crushed Shale empire) is Venezuela and President Maduro, because toppling this government and shaking up the Bolivarian group, will yield Venezuela's reserve, as a more strategic prize. The strangling of vital consumer commodities is the blunt object used to batter Maduro, while oil prices remain suppressed.

On a more general note, regarding the upbeat response to Russia's new assertiveness, I would offer a caution against too much optimism. After a prolonged period of stress and anxiety, a glimmer of release comes, and there can be an escape into a potent feeling of euphoria. Just remember that this is a real ongoing crisis, and Syria is still a powder keg. Remember how many mercenary players, and state actors, and freelancers (some of whom are insane) are still impacting a volatile situation. It doesn't particularly negate the danger, because of the clear reality that Russia won't back down now.

Posted by: Copeland | Sep 30, 2015 1:41:02 PM | 88

Mina @ 47

Regarding France's non-helpful attitude towards saving of Syria: France is unhappy w the entire US/Iran nuke deal, which according to Thierry Meyssan, involves Iranian rapprochement w US & Iran left as controller of the Shiite countries on behalf of its US overlord.

France had hoped for some part of this lucrative role. The French economy is in deep trouble despite its holding all the currency & gold reserves of 15 African countries, on which it pays no interest. http://nsnbc.me/2012/10/12/french-africa-policy-damages-african-and-european-economies/ Bleeding Africa and Feeding France – The Face of French Modo-Colonialism Christof Lehmann

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 1:42:17 PM | 89

AHammer @ 48,

"IMF will get the 30T of gold bullion looted from Ukraine for underwritten original bonds, and US taxpayers will pay for the illegally-leveraged Kiev junk bonds layered up on top of the IMF asset-backed bonds. Amazing they pulled off the same 'scheme' as Papa Bush did, and nobody even noticed~! Everyone is focused on that 'shiney object', MH17, just like everyone was focused on WTC7, when the Bush junk bonds were illegally swapped out for US Treasuries in the 'relaxed market controls' days immediately after 911."

I thought Bush's bonds had to do w his ownership/stealing assets in Russia. Ownership of the bonds wd normally have been disclosed 9/12, but under state of emergency this was waived. Sounds like you know more about it than I. Do you have a link, or cn you tell a little more?

Also, about the gold bullion looted from Ukraine; I thought that went to US within a day or two of the coup.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 1:56:26 PM | 90

Within the Iran nuke diplomacy was an agreement for Russia to come in & help mop up Syria Penelope at 21.

Mop up Idk, but ‘resolve’ the Syria matter, absolutely. Hints at this were reported in the press here, Iirc, it was about half-way through the ‘nuke’ negotiations. E.g.: along the lines of “Wide ranging discussions concerning international matters including Syria as naturally enough Iran’s status would change” said, reportedly, by Kerry / the Iranian FM. (Yemen was also discussed at length.) Moreover, one can guess that the delays and ‘divergences’ and ‘sticking points’ etc. did not concern the no. of centrifuges (the media on this made no sense at all, and even though it is the kind of thing they garble, it felt as if mention of these matters was fake or very much by the way..) but other issues.

Syria is moving towards being resolved; so is Ukraine. P. as above

I have been wondering about the ‘resolving’ of Ukraine. The Ukr. Gvmt and Poro are in deep sh•t - economic!, social, etc. Ukr. is a failed state in the sense that it’s institutions (parliament, judicidary, police, territory, army, health care…) don’t function. They are not just frayed, weak or limping along - but collapsed, and violence (physical and institutional) and corruption pervades them all, but they are still brandished as ‘legit’ in a blatant masquerade. Ukr’s continuing existence in this form is dependent on US support, plus poodles hesitant to diverge (IMF / finance deals mostly) - it also somehow manages to de-fang acute internal dangers that threaten Ukr. authorities under the guise of pro- ‘democracy’ etc. etc. (Oligarchs, what not.) The US seems to want to conserve Poro (for the mo) .. as at least he is a ‘known known’ as well as for face-saving reasons: having your puppet thrown out in the street and shot by Maidan Bis or Banderistas is an ‘unfavorable outcome.’

There is no more support, zero, be it cheering or finance/arms, for more attacks against the ‘moskal terrorists’ in the Donbass. It is clear by now that LPR + DPR will à terme either become an ‘independent region’ with close ties to Russia, or in some shape/form part of Russia itself.

How will this unwinding occur?

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 30, 2015 2:13:40 PM | 91

@89 People are so gullible charles. As WOW points out in #85 they see a few dozen white Toyotas and think ISIS is unstoppable.

Likewise an SNC spokesman says 36 civilians were killed in a Russian airstrike and it's all over the news.

I like your vegetable theory but I need more evidence.

Posted by: dh | Sep 30, 2015 2:16:49 PM | 92

P@85

I waited for some hard evidence of the so called false flag sarin attack in Goutha but all that has been produced is rumor and speculation. Assad's forces are the only people who have been shown to posses these chem-weapons which was verified when they surrendered them. Because of this fact logic dictates that Assad's forces are the only ones who could have used them however illogical and counterproductive Assad's using them may appear.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Sep 30, 2015 2:52:14 PM | 93

@Wayoutwest #93:

Nobody has suggested that the terrorists produced the gas themselves. (Although I don't see why terrorists can't produce poison gas by themselves; I believe Japanese terrorists did so.) The standard account is that Islamist terrorists were given sarin by an intelligence agency, possibly KSA's.

False flags are standard M.O. for the CIA/Mossad. Since both of these had a motive to run a false flag directed against the Syrian military, whereas no competent military has a motive to use poison gas, "logic dictates" that your heroes launched the chemical weapons attack.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 30, 2015 3:11:01 PM | 94

WayOutWest @ 66,

The Geneva 2012 communique does NOT call for Assad to step down. Maybe Pinnochio Kerry can get away w lying about it repeatedly, but you can't.

GENEVA COMMUNIQUE June 2012 http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/Syria/FinalCommuniqueActionGroupforSyria.pdf • "The establishment of a transitional governing body which can establish a neutral environment in which the transition can take place. That means that the transitional governing body would exercise full executive powers. It could include members of the present government and the opposition and other groups and shall be formed on the basis of mutual consent."

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 3:38:04 PM | 95

'B' makes a good and significant point when he quotes Kerry saying the USA government thinks Syria needs to be a secular State. Supporting a secular State is tantamount to opposing essentially all militant opposition in Syria. It is tantamount to being pro-Assadist.

'B' is a flakey and dead wrong conspiracy theorist when he says: "It is obvious that the U.S. organized a sectarian revolt in Syria and in 2012 made the willful decision to further the growth of a sectarian Islamic State." It is not "obvious" and more to the point it is not true. One can validly say the U.S. chattering classes cheered for and clapped in favour of a sectarian revolt. The U.S. did not organize the revolt. It organized itself. It got financial support from the Gulf States. Not from the U.S., excepting minor U.S. financing of so-called pro-democracy organizations whose impact on the Syrian scene has always been extremely minor.

Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Sep 30, 2015 4:12:50 PM | 96

ZIP @ #86 asks: "please tell me how Russia somehow could destroy ISIL? Its not realistic." Russia's intervention strengthens the Syrian government and the Syrian army, and it weakens the rebels. Eventually it will be the Syrian army that will destroy the rebels, including the ISIL rebels. This is realistic. The Syrian army has more men under arms than all rebel groups combined. It has superior weaponry on the ground and it is the only army with airpower.

Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Sep 30, 2015 4:28:53 PM | 97

ZIP @ 86,

I know nada about military, Zip, but isn't cutting the supply lines "game over"? I mean how great a supply of munitions can they have on hand? I understand that there's about 100 miles of Turkey's border that must be monitored, and maybe the same for Jordan. Isn't live satellite imaging plus aircover to destroy trucks coming through effective?

And I think there's going to be more ground forces than just the Syrian Army, no? At least CSTO?

Do answer me, somebody. I need to learn SOMETHING about military matters.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 5:19:04 PM | 98

Noirette @ 91,

"There is no more support, zero, be it cheering or finance/arms, for more attacks against the ‘moskal terrorists’ in the Donbass. It is clear by now that LPR + DPR will à terme either become an ‘independent region’ with close ties to Russia, or in some shape/form part of Russia itself.

How will this unwinding occur?"

I think Minsk2. It's almost de facto independence, but masquerades as United Ukraine. I wd dearly like to see the entirety of the two provinces included, but I don't see much likelihood. Also it's hard to see how US wd give up a naval base at Odessa which wd nominally be a Ukrainian base w "Ukrainian" ships, but some kind of a deal's been struck-- if for no better reason than Putin is solving a European problem, so they've got to respond w repealing the sanctions and "solving" Ukraine. The genius of the Minsk2 agreement (pried out of them because Donbass held embarassing numbers of NATO troops at Debaltsevo) is that it included being certified by the UN and therefore became the basis of all future conversation/legitimacy about the conflict.

Anyway, it's interesting days, no? What do you think about the difficulty of clearing Syria of ISIS, et al? From my complete ignorance it doesn't seem so tough. Iraq's another matter cuz the state has been so degraded. But the sharing of intelligence is a good sign. If only the puppet there doesn't betray his country to the US.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 5:47:15 PM | 99

Ghubar Shabih @ 96,

"The U.S. did not organize the revolt. It organized itself. It got financial support from the Gulf States. Not from the U.S., excepting minor U.S. financing of so-called pro-democracy organizations whose impact on the Syrian scene has always been extremely minor."

I'm interested in what you're saying. Please tell us more. Also, what were the complaints of the indigenous rebels?

From my point of view, although Gulf states paid for it, US/UK already intended to bring down Syria, used their media control to aid what Gulf states were doing, trained mercenary fighters, flew supplies into Turkey & Jordan.
Also they or Mossad probably used hidden sharpshooter to inflame earliest demonstrations.

But tell me your point of view; I'm very interested.

Posted by: Penelope | Sep 30, 2015 6:09:41 PM | 100

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