Syria: Thoughts On The Russian Air Support
Some things that happened today:
- The Syrian government asked the Russian Federation for air support in its fight against the foreign supported insurgency.
- The Russian parliament agreed to a Russian government request for a legal mandate to do so.
- Russian officers in Iraq informed the U.S. embassy in Baghdad of upcoming strikes and recommended that U.S. planes stay out of the area and that U.S. forces on the ground be removed.
- Russian planes started to bomb insurgency held fixed positions in Homs and Hama governate in west Syria. Both governates are next to Latakia where the Russian forces are deployed.
Immediately after news of the first Russian strike the U.S. payed "Syrian Civil Defense" organization "White Helmets" posted propaganda claims of killed children. The picture it used to prove its claims had also been used on September 25, before the Russians started to bomb.
Next came claims that the Russian had hit "moderate rebels" which the U.S. says are its good guys.
To which Mark Adomanis snarked:
The US couldn't find "moderate" rebels in 3 years. Apparently the Russians did in 24 hours
Indeed. Even back in 2012 the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency found:
THE SALAFIST, THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, AND AQI ARE THE MAJOR FORCES DRIVING THE INSURGENCY IN SYRIA.
"Moderates"- my ass.
The neocon Institute for the Study of War correctly identifies the target the Russian planes hit:
An alleged Russian airstrike hit the rebel-held town of Talbisah north of Homs City. Talbisah is home to Syrian al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra, hardline Islamist Ahrar al-Sham, and a number of other local rebel groups, all of which are active in local governance efforts in the area. Both Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) have claimed a number of vehicle-borne IEDs (VBIEDs) in Homs City, located only 12 kilometers south of Talbisah.
The Russians themselves claim 8 ISIS targets hit as they do not differentiate much between the various groups of violent jihadi organizations.
The U.S. and its European lap dogs are now outraged, OUTRAGED that the Russians did not hit the Islamic State but al-Qaeda. "They claimed to fight the Islamic State. How could they hit our moderate rebels and their friendly al-Qaeda cooperation partners?"
One of the eight Russian targets was in Rastan in Homs governate. No Islamic State there claims the "western" propaganda. Except that just nine days ago the Islamic State shot dead seven men in Rastan for being allegedly gay.
Human Rights Watch and its ever lying ISIS promoting boss Kenneth Roth have not yet complained that Russia is NOT using their beloved "barrel bombs". But we can be sure that they will soon come up with some other dull bullshit.
The Russian will first clear, as much as possible, the area between their base in Latakia and the Turkish border. That is pretty much a self defense measure as some insurgent groups have already tried to hit the Russian base with improvised rockets. It also has the advantage that the targets are only a few flight minutes away.
The bottleneck here is intelligence. The Russians have UAV drones as well as manned signal intelligence aircraft in Syria and will use those to find targets. The Syrian government will help with its on-the-ground intelligence.
The Russians now have at least 24 ground attack fighters on their base. Each could fly at least six sorties per day (and night), with double crewing even more. When the Russians have settled in we can expect a regular 100-150 air attacks per day on the "moderate rebels" with surges of up to 250 per day. This is about the same amount as the Syrian air force is currently delivering. But the Russian planes are better equipped and have better accuracy. For those CIA paid "moderate rebel" TOW shooters and their al-Qaeda allies life will soon become very uncomfortable. Only after the immediate danger to the base and to important Syrian government positions in west Syria is pushed away will Russia start to hit Islamic State targets further east. This may require moving some of its planes to another airfield further east.
I also expect that the Russians will do much more than just bombing rebel headquarters and the like. A main task will be direct ground support for the Syrian army when it starts to reclaim insurgent held areas. The Russians will have forward air controllers on the ground embedded with the Syrian forces. Effectively directed, all weather air support will make upcoming ground campaigns much easier.
The "western" anti-Syrian governments will continue to play outraged over the Russian help for the Syrian government. But I do not expect them to take any serious countermeasures. What can they do? Give anti-air missiles to their "moderate rebels" so that these can be handed over to al-Qaeda?
The Gulf dictatorships though may make such a grave mistake:
Adel al-Jubeir, Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister, said Tuesday that there were no circumstances in which his country would accept the Russian effort to keep Mr. Assad in power.He hinted that if a political solution that led to his departure could not be found, the shipment of weapons and other support to Syrian rebel groups would be increased.
Posted by b on September 30, 2015 at 18:04 UTC | Permalink
next page »○ Recent map of Syria and rebel held territory
○ Down the Memory Hole: NYT Erases CIA’s Efforts to Overthrow Syria’s Government | FAIR |
○ Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon: We're not coordinating Syria response with Russia | Ynet News |
○ Putin Hints Russia Will Clip Israel’s Wings Over Syrian Skies | via Haaretz |
The brusque handshake before their talks was widely remarked on, as in this tweet by CBS White House reporter Mark Knoller.
- One of shortest POTUS photos ops ever.
Walk in, shake hands, walk out. 13½ seconds.
Popular Russian tabloid Moskovsky Komsomolets (MK) told its readers that such silent photo ops were "a customary format for the Americans" - glossing over the icy atmosphere.
- But the russian strikes have exposed the duplicity of US policy.
On the one hand he made a deal with the GCC (US is allowed to make a deal with Iran and the GCC is allowed to support ISIS).
On the other hand the US seems to have decided to combat ISIS (see a previous MoA post).
Well, Mr Obama, what is going to be ?
Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 30 2015 19:00 utc | 5
John McCain has a sad. Some of his pet jihadis just got bombed.
I look forward to watching the R2P crowd froth at the mouth over this.
Game on! Where's my popcorn?
Posted by: thepanzer | Sep 30 2015 19:03 utc | 7
THe BBC, as ever its Masters voice used this head to describe the Russian move:
"Syria crisis: Russian air strikes against Assad enemies". No mention of terrorists, al-queda, isis, isil, islamic state. THey're all 'anti-assad activists' as far as the BBC is concerned.
The BBC even has the nerve head the piece with a fucking video supplied by anti-assad people allegedly of the aftermath of the strikes.
The piece reeks of USUK government handouts!
"Russian defence officials say aircraft carried out about 20 missions targeting Islamic State, but US officials said that so far they did not appear to be targeting IS-held territory."
We read yet again, the same thing,
"There are serious questions about who exactly the Russian aircraft are targeting. US officials believe that the initial Russian strikes are not in IS-held territory, raising the possibility that Russian air power is being utilised more in the form of close air support for Syrian government forces against the multiple enemies of the Assad regime.
Of course, many of these enemies are supported by the West's Arab allies or Turkey. The warning time given by the Russians to the Americans announcing the start of their operations may also raise some eyebrows, suggesting that much more detailed co-ordination may be needed in future to avoid incidents in Syrian airspace.
But still not enough apparently,
"None of the areas targeted were controlled by IS, activists said."
So, you get the message?
But it's interesting that the US is now in a real bind, witness what Kerry has to say at the UN,
"US Secretary of State John Kerry said the United States was prepared to welcome Russian military action in Syria - but only as long as it was directed against IS and al-Qaeda-linked groups.
"Speaking at the United Nations Security Council, Mr Kerry said the US would have "grave concerns" if Russia conducted strikes against other groups.
"He said the US-led coalition against IS would "dramatically accelerate our efforts" and that the US was prepared to hold talks with Russia about avoiding accidental conflicts between the two air strike campaigns "as early as possible"."
Of course Kerry's claim about who the Russians target is pure bullshit and Kerry knows it, that's why he goes on to try and get the Russians to back up the US-led assault on the Middle East.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34399164
Posted by: William Bowles | Sep 30 2015 19:13 utc | 8
I am not surprised that Russia felt the need to intervene in the Syrian battles. But I'm not sure why I'm not surprised.
I wonder what Moscow's main motivations are. Destabilization of Iran? Pipeline routes? It feels like there may be factors that Moscow perceives that I do not know about.
Posted by: blues | Sep 30 2015 19:14 utc | 9
In Defence of Marxism has quite an interesting piece on the subject:
http://www.marxist.com/why-is-russia-stepping-up-involvement-in-syria.htm
Posted by: William Bowles | Sep 30 2015 19:32 utc | 10
From this same article:
The previously adamant demand that the Assad regime has to go is also being watered down as top Western officials gradually admit that “there might be room for Assad” in a transitional regime.
It is clear that Assad, his family and his cronies are so tied to the Syrian state that it would collapse if they were removed. Even Obama, in spite of spending a long while denouncing the barbarism of the Syrian regime at the UN, had to admit that “realism dictates that compromise will be required to end the fighting and ultimately stamp out ISIL”.
Putin is offering Obama an olive branch, a way out of the mess that the US has caused in Syria, but he wants it on his terms and along with the recognition of Russia as a legitimate world power on equal terms. For Obama this presents an opportunity that he will not pass up, even though it will cause him trouble with the Republicans at home.
The European powers are also positive. The flow of refugees streaming out of Syria is already having a destabilising effect on the political system of the EU and causing divisions between the European ruling classes on the question of who is to bear the cost. At the same time the already-fragile EU economy, and in particular the German one, has been hit hard by the sanctions against Russia. Thus many top officials from EU countries have been signalling a change in their attitude and in particular in their demand for the overthrow of Assad.
It's all real politik.
Posted by: William Bowles | Sep 30 2015 19:35 utc | 11
@9
your comment is simply so much word salad it is difficult to address...
Posted by: cronetoo | Sep 30 2015 19:35 utc | 12
The Russians hitting the evil US empires boots on the ground troops in Al-Nusra, might be attributed to them being the closest to the Russian base ( which is the most likely), but I like to prefer that the Russians poked the US in the eye with this one first.
Next target should be the area controlled in the south west or the Golan Heights by Al-Nusra, to piss off the Israeli state terrorists whose boots on the ground are Al-Nusra.
Is the Syrian Air-force or the Russian air force gonna take that one on ? Has to be the Russians. If they dare too.
If Russia is saying to Israel, 'go sit back in the corner' like to b mentioned, then that has to be expressed through attacking the Golan Heights or the area next to it.
The cowardly lying whores of the Empire over at the Guardian, declared that the Free Syrian Army was the first targert by the Russians !!!!
And I warned weeks ago when this shit with ramping up with Russia in Syria , that the Wests terrorist proxies would be getting an increase in sophisticated weapons. I can almost guarantee it.
Posted by: tom | Sep 30 2015 19:42 utc | 13
There has been more media attention on alleged civilian casualties during Russia's first 6 hours of Syrian intervention than there has been during Saudi's 6 months of bombing Yemen. But let the media squeal in outrage as their darling freedom fighters, whom they have supported so long, are now ground to dust. We've heard it all before.
4 years. 4 long years I've hoped this day would come. Today doesn't mark victory, but it has permanently denied victory for the opposition; that the sacrifice made by thousands of men and women for Syria, their President and the resistance has not been in vain. Not only has Russia decided to target IS, but so too any group that stands in the way of the advance of Syrian Government forces. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists..
It will be interesting to see now how Iran intends to support the new Russian initiative. Boots on the ground, perhaps? Time to step out of the shadows.
Today is a good day.
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Sep 30 2015 19:42 utc | 14
Besides the military aspect.
Overall, it appears, on the surface, that ISIS (the various factions that make it up..) are a revolutionary force. They are, ostensibly, fighting for a new society, a new demos, an overthrow of the previous status quo, etc. They have an aim, a model, an ideology, a religious template, etc.. a 'renewal', viewed by others as retrograde and vicious. It passes through coercitive take-over and control of *territory and ressources* plus the humans on it (which is not the only way.)
The main points in the discourse afaik (from readin’ some interviews), are, a) confusedly anti-capitalist. Zakak and fair sharing etc. figure large. b) anti-West (degenerate morals, vulture capitalism, domination thru globalisation, Wall Street, working ppl screwed over, attacks on Muslims, etc.), as the domination affects the social fabric of ‘harmony’ a ‘just, pious society’ and so on. c) Anti-Israel. The few young women: I want to marry, have children, have a husband who respects me, live a proper, devout, decent, safe, life.
Naturally the picture from the ‘volunteers’ or ‘spokespersons’ is idealised (though many may believe sincerely..and note that some EU pols and bloggers make similar points) Most of the fighters are mercenaries, in one way or another, paid for and living off their agression, or are no-hopers going where the violent wind blows and affords some sadism and dollaris. Not motivated by Nation-building, even tribe solidarity, or ‘religion’ in a committed way, imho. The aim is rather to be in a fighting, and then control, position.
This means that ISIS will be (was …) very easy to defeat, after a few serious setbacks and the scare of the Russians are coming it will evaporate, or re-trench into very small pockets, though many martyrs will give their lives, resistance to the death is a badge of honor.
One interpretation, one facet, amongst many others concerning other topics, angles.
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 30 2015 19:47 utc | 15
blues@9--Start by reading Putin's UN speech. I think he's pretty clear. Since all global terrorism occurs at the behest of the Outlaw Empire, Putin and Xi know that they will be used to destabilize their development initiatives, which is already happening in China. And the CSTO was attacked in Tajikistan. The drive to obtain Full Spectrum Dominance has NOT been repudiated by the Outlaw Empire--The Deep State is a stubborn bunch.
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 30 2015 19:51 utc | 16
I'm laughing so hard I can't stop.. UK FM says Russia 'must confirm Syria air strike target'... Translation, tell us what you're going to hit so we can pass it on to our favorite terrorists to take cover.
Just across the Atlantic, US defense boss has suddenly become aware of civilian casualties during air strikes and is now lecturing Russian on how this could turn the people against them. He even went on to say today's strikes by Russia didn't hit ISIS..Who knew??? Suddenly they know where ISIS is present and not present? As things stand, all the NATO coalition team operating illegally in Syria's airspace were told to get lost by Russian airforce. This includes the USAF.
I've now come to the conclusion that these guys truly live in a parallel universe. Black is white, war is peace etc etc...
Posted by: Zico | Sep 30 2015 19:51 utc | 17
@13 The U.S. response would be hysterics regardless. The idea of other countries running their own affairs terrifies neoconservatives. Defense contractors dont want Russian weapons performing under real conditions. If ISIS collapses, Obama's ISIS Fightin' section of his library will largely be a thank you card to Putin. It's unlikely the neocons would appreciate the symbolism anyway.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 30 2015 20:07 utc | 18
@ Zico #17
You've missed another one : The French
They are so miffed that they were not notified that they come with such silliness:
United Nations: France demanded Wednesday that Russia confirm the targets of its air strikes in Syria, amid concerns they may not have been aimed at the Islamic State group, before accepting the enlarged coalition Moscow wants
Yeah right ! as if Putin owes something to Hollande
Posted by: Yul | Sep 30 2015 20:18 utc | 19
Pretty obvious as I have stated repeatedly that this turning into a mess, do you guys really think Russia will remove the ISIL threat just like that?
Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30 2015 20:22 utc | 21
@21 Russia might end the threat to the Assad controlled enclaves fairly swiftly. Plenty of western backed mercenaries aren't interested in fighting first class air power. Mercenaries are there for money and rank thuggery. They aren't there to be in a real fight. Once the mercs slink away and supply routes are bombed, much of the rank and file will slip away such as is occurring now in Europe. If they were legitimate freedom fighters or it was their home, they might stay, but imported fighters aren't laying down their lives to stroke Obama's ego.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 30 2015 20:30 utc | 22
@22
Aslong as they do that, bomb from the air, there is no way Russia could win this fight, this bombing will look like US bombing, that is - a mess and a war that you cannot win.
I sense russians soon will look upon this as Afghanistan war in the 80s, I hope I am wrong but it doesnt look good at all imo.
Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30 2015 20:41 utc | 23
The pussyfoot French, crying as usual. Do they think Putin will ever forget and forgive their traitorous behavior with the Mistrals? Neozionazistan is in uproars, yelling to high heaven, their cannibals are being blown to bits. Payback is a bitch, eh? We have waited four years, enough, time for reckoning.
WoW is desperately braying against the vile Russians, killing his cannibal partners in crime. He's about to lose his trolling job.
Go Putin, give'em hell!!!
And thanks b for yet another well done summary of the whole guacamole.
Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30 2015 20:43 utc | 24
@ZIP@21
Pretty obvious as I have stated repeatedly that this turning into a mess, do you guys really think Russia will remove the ISIL threat just like that?
What mess? I have seen your comments up and down the thread, and your negative doomsday posting is looking more and more like trolling. You seem to have a particular message to inject, "it's going to be a mess," "the Russians can't win this from the air," "it's another Afghanistan," etc.
What's your point? We don't need anyone here telling us what it could be, we all know what is at stake, but you don't seem to share in the general optimism of most posters here. What's your trolling task?
Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30 2015 20:51 utc | 25
Lone Wolf
How am I trolling by stating the truth? You seems to be person I have in mind when I wrote my comments, to be honest its quite pathetic to see people here being cultish in their optimism for Russia in this war. Seriously, get a grip, this is nothing to cheer and we can go back here in a few weeks and see who is right. Ok?
Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30 2015 21:10 utc | 27
Thanks to b for his take on the events in Syria.
Pat Bateman @ 14. You put into words my exact thoughts. Thank you.
According to the Aviationist 6 SU-34s landed in Syria sometime over the past few days accompanying a Russian Air Force TU-154. While this is not official, the anti-takfiri coalition will need the best aircraft to counter the inevitable up-grading of surface-to-air missiles. I think we can expect the US, through the Saudis, to attempt to attack Russia in this manner.
Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 30 2015 21:11 utc | 28
Does anyone know what the Kurds role in this is? Thank you
Also it's important to emphasize that the enemy in Syria is not just ISIL.
The western critics are seeking to shape the narrative around ISIL being the only enemy.
The U.S. are upset by Russia's actions and their media is going into meltdown as they really do take being exceptional seriously it's not just words to them
Posted by: James lake | Sep 30 2015 21:13 utc | 29
Oh Matthew Lee has a good one on Fabius , the $--t disturber wrt Iran nuclear deal ( Lavrov mustn't forget as well as Iran- Renault is hoping to make a killing getting 20% of the auto market once sanctions are lifted):
http://www.innercitypress.com/syria1fabiusvkurds093015.html
Posted by: Yul | Sep 30 2015 21:18 utc | 30
Love it, the US/UK NATO terrorists taking fire in every orifice...and love the spin about Russians now killing "civilians" or "moderate rebels" by the people who fronted for the terrorists and armed intervention in Syria in the first place!
The insta-pundits on Twitter and the like have no shame.
Thanks for coming, Mr. Putin. Wish you would have come sooner but better late than never.
Posted by: farflungstar | Sep 30 2015 21:21 utc | 31
One of the articles I skimmed recently was about how the US has troops in 165 countries. Mostly they say training the locals but they admit that taking out "extremists" is another part of their job......keeping the world safe for global plutocrat interests.
As the world sees folks standing up to the fascist empire I would hope to see most of 165 countries rejecting the US military operating in their countries in the next year.
Like others, I want this situation in Syria to represent a turning point in the struggle against the global plutocrats behind the curtain of American empire. I want my country, that I was once proud of, to reject empire war mongering and those that use it for social control.
All of us need to prepare ourselves for the ugly that this struggle could become given that the global plutocrats are in control of the brainwashing media in most of the world......go long popcorn....grin That said, I am saddened by the human death and suffering that this necessary engagement will produce and hope it doesn't end in our extinction.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 30 2015 21:25 utc | 32
- I think the US didn't expect Russia to act so soon.
- Russia has placed the US in an awkward position.
(See: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/09/syria-turns-the-corner.html)
What I read is that Syria, Hezbollah & Russia have been given free reign by the US in Syria to defeat/degrade ISIS and other groups in Syria.
The only thing the US has to deal with are the arab Gulf States.
- "US & European lapdogs are outraged" ?? No, that's not what I read in that one particular article. The european responses seem to me rather moderate.
- I still think that the days of Erdogan are numbered. Russia's attacks on Al Qaida/Jabhat Al Nusra & ISIS undermine Erdogan's position (he wanted Assad gone). Combined with other turkish economic woes, I think Erdogan will be voted out of office or be ousted by a military coup.
- Erdogan has build a very large palace: 1.150 rooms. Ouch.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/02/20/1-150-policemen-for-Erdogan-s-1-150-room-palace-report.html.
Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 30 2015 21:29 utc | 33
The narrative being pushed in by the msm is that all rebels(read terrorist) groups in Syria are moderates apart from ISIL.. SO by their definition, Al-Ciada, Nusra, FSA, Ilamic front and the assorted opportunistic rebel(read terrorist) groups are all "moderates". I guess we're now clear by what they term as "moderate".
By that same token, the Taliban is also "moderate" because they're not ISIS. Sheeeesh..How things change. I think this anti-Russia propaganda campaign will be really hard to sell to the masses.
On a more serious note, Russia must focus of Idlib & Al-Raqqah. In Idlib they should bomb any convoy from Turkey heading down to Syria. I have no doubt in my mind that MANPADs will magically be popping up on the battlefield soon - all to help their "moderate" friends, of course!!!
Posted by: Zico | Sep 30 2015 21:35 utc | 34
b, your quote from the ISW website is not correct. Instead it says:
"...These airstrikes continue to target areas held by Syrian rebels, including Syrian al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra, hardline Islamist Ahrar al-Sham, Western-backed TOW anti-tank missile recipients, and a number of other local rebel groups. Notably, the nearest positions held by ISIS are over 55 km from the areas targeted by the Russian airstrikes. No Russian airstrikes have yet been reported against ISIS’s positions in Syria."
That sentence, "Both Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) have claimed a number of vehicle-borne IEDs (VBIEDs) in Homs City, located only 12 kilometers south of Talbisah." is from another part of the website.
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 30 2015 21:46 utc | 35
It seems Zip is incapable of reading what Putin and Lavrov have said umpteen times about their expectations. Neither expect it to be easy; bath have stated that they're mostly providing support for the boots already on the ground that have been most effective in fighting the terrorists--Syrian Army, Hezbollah, Kurds, and Iranian special ops. There're so many such articles that Zip has to knowingly avoid them to stay uninformed--the usual troll modis.
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 30 2015 21:48 utc | 36
- I could imagine & wouldn't be surprised to see that "Europe" is actually glad to see the "Rebels" being destroyed. After all a number of "Western" countries are bombing ISIS in Iraq (were they active in Syria as well ??).
- The european countries could have chosen to avoid bombing in Syria because of the geo-political complications: (think: ties between Russia & Syria.) Bombing Syria would have meant upsetting Russia (think: russian gas supplies to Europe).
- Came across this news: Russia plans to sell a nuclear reactor to Egypt ?
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/02/10/Russia-s-Putin-in-Cairo-for-talks-with-Sisi-.html
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/02/14/-U-S-says-Russia-shouldn-t-weigh-in-on-Egypt-s-vote-.html
There were more Russia related stories on Al Arabiya:
http://english.alarabiya.net/en
(Search with the words: Russia & putin)
(Isn't Al Arabiya located in & supported by Saudi Arabia ??)
Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 30 2015 21:50 utc | 37
The Institute for the Study of War (ISW - a Kagan spawn) publishes various neocon chickenhawk drivel for 'policymakers' (= like-minded psychopaths). They are predictable - a combination of projection, demonizing and wishful thinking viewed through war-monger blood-goggles. The intent of which - as with all ISW material - is to drum up business for the military-industrial complex. Christopher Kozak, Syrian Research Analyst, is the DJ on the most recent Syrian 90-Day Strategic Forecast dated Sept. 17th available as a 20 pg. .pdf on the like here:
http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/forecasting-syrian-civil-war
Lots of interesting material there packaged up nicely by Mr. Kozak, considering the source. The one aspect I found most intriguing was a theme repeated several times in his 'Most Dangerous Course of Action' possibilities: chemical weapons attacks by 'the regime'.
Odd because I figured they pretty much ran that whole charade into the ground and were relegated to the occasional claim of chlorine barrel bombs or some such nonsense. The fact that ISW would even come up with the continuing threat of some kind of chemical attack by Assad's forces TODAY is rather remarkable.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. If the Kagans and their species are still dangling out the possibility of CW attacks, then we would be wise to expect just such a false flag to be tried again by the web of spook agencies operating there. My first reaction is a long face-palm with the thought, "Jeeze... they couldn't be so stupid as to try that again, could they?"
The answer is inevitably: of course they can.
Posted by: PavewayIV | Sep 30 2015 21:57 utc | 38
I totally concur with thepanzer at #7 above when said about today's news, "Game on! Where's my popcorn?"
I'm now going to argue that "Oui" at #2 above is misled and so is 'B'. "Oui" at #2 above links to an article that claims that, over the past few years, there's been a "well-documented" clandestine CIA program for Syria "that trained approximately 10,000 rebel fighters at a cost of $1 billion a year". This alleged program "has been reported by major news outlets, including the New York Times... and the Washington Post". 'B' on this board has made the same claim. The evidence for this claim is very weak. I believe the claim is a falsehood for the following reasons.
First, I haven't seen any confirming evidence on the ground in Syria. I can readily see evidence on the ground that somebody has been funding the Syrian rebels from the outside. The Saudis have funded the rebels, as is well known. But I cannot see any evidence that the CIA has been funding the rebels. I cannot see any reliable such evidence from the rebels themselves, and neither can I see any evidence from the Syrian government about it. The Syrian government has not reported any such evidence. Secondly, I haven't seen adequate attestations from USA sources in USA that the CIA has been funding 10,000 rebels with US$1 billion. The claim and allegation is that the CIA operation is "classified" as a secret, and nobody who knows the secret is allowed to talk about it, and that's why you can't find the attestations for it. But the fact is, it's truly very inadequately attested: It's only hearsay and rumour. Moreover and relatedly, it flies in the face of policy stances that the Obama government has been putting forth over the past few years about the requirement to "vet" rebels. Thirdly, the alleged CIA program has been carried out in alleged coordination with the government of Jordan, yet the government of Jordan has repeatedly explicitly denied any involvement. Moreover the government of Jordan has said that such a program would be contrary to Jordan's fundamental policy principles, and if you look at what those fundamental policy principles are you'll see that the alleged program would indeed be contrary to them. Fourthly, the non-clandestine program for "moderate rebels", which was funded to the tune of US$500 million, was a huge fail and the main reason why it was a huge fail was they couldn't recruit Syrian men to join up. The rumoured successful funding of the 10,000 doesn't come with an expanation of how come it suceeded where the other one failed. Fifthly, and related to the first point, the alleged CIA funded rebels have been fighting in and around Deraa in southern Syria. Compared to rebels in other parts of the country, they've been not differently equipped and not differently organized.
I say to you, you shouldn't believe this claim about the CIA until after you've seen good evidence for it. As far as I know, you haven't seen good evidence. If you think otherwise, ask yourself could you be prejudiced and biased? are you not making an inference on the basis of insufficient info?
Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Sep 30 2015 22:07 utc | 39
@ZIP@27
How am I trolling by stating the truth? You seems to be person I have in mind when I wrote my comments, to be honest its quite pathetic to see people here being cultish in their optimism for Russia in this war. Seriously, get a grip, this is nothing to cheer and we can go back here in a few weeks and see who is right. Ok?
Well, thanks for having me in mind, you're a nice guy. As for the truth, this is what you post,
Pretty obvious as I have stated repeatedly that this turning into a mess, do you guys really think Russia will remove the ISIL threat just like that?Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 4:22:47 PM | 21
--------
@22Aslong as they do that, bomb from the air, there is no way Russia could win this fight, this bombing will look like US bombing, that is - a mess and a war that you cannot win.
I sense russians soon will look upon this as Afghanistan war in the 80s, I hope I am wrong but it doesnt look good at all imo.Posted by: ZIP | Sep 30, 2015 4:41:08 PM | 23
So, is this the truth?
[...]"this turning into a mess"[...] (sic)
[...]"that is - a mess"[...]
[...]"do you guys really think Russia will remove the ISIL threat just like that"[...]
[...]"there is no way Russia could win this fight"[...]
[...]"I sense russians soon will look upon this as Afghanistan war in the 80s"[...]
Guess you're a soothsayer of sorts, or the oracle of Delphos, since you already saw what's beginning as a "mess," or "turning into a mess," and Russia is getting into a quagmire, Afghanistan deja vu. What are you doing wasting your time at MoA? You should be selling your foretelling abilities somewhere else.
The real truth, Mr. ZIP, is that you cannot see the existing mess, because you're blind. It can't get messier than what the US/UK/NATOstan/Mossad/Saudis/Gulf Crooks & Co have created in the ME. Millions killed in Iraq, hundreds of thousands killed in Syria, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Lebanon, Afghanistan, gangs ruling the land, cannibals pretending to be "revolutionaries," millions of people internally displaced, millions fleeing as refugees to other countries, thousands of people maimed, tortured, enslaved, sacrificed in the altar of exceptionalism, global domination, unipolarity.
I am not done but I have to run. In the meantime, I leave you with a message given to the World Masters at the UN, by one who is trying to clean this mess, not create a new one,
Do you realize what you have done?
V. Putin, 70th UNGA, 2015.
Posted by: Lone Wolf | Sep 30 2015 22:15 utc | 40
PavewayIV@38--During UNSC discussion today, Lavrov stated Daesh has WMD "components", upping the pressure to have it listed as a separate entity on the anti-terrorist sanction list which has been opposed by the Outlaw Empire, http://www.rt.com/news/317073-lavrov-isis-wmd-components/
And we know Daesh has used such weapons already. It's going to be hard for the Outlaw Empire to counter its own WMD propaganda!
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 30 2015 22:21 utc | 41
centcom syria just took a knock
seal team 6 gonna have to find a new home ohh sorry seal team 6 are all cia dead.
this has gotta hurt g4s,mitre corp,serco,blackwater academi,britam defence not to forget the sas and the super elite Sayeret Matkai and golani brigade
ben gurion and coma man sharon will be weeping in hell tonight for this insult to the israhole state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiA0JUdWR6M&feature=youtu.be
Posted by: charles drake | Sep 30 2015 22:48 utc | 42
The Russians have attacked sites sensitive for Asad. The choice can't be explained otherwise.
Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 30 2015 22:48 utc | 43
I presume this is a message to the US, not to attack Asad.
Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 30 2015 22:56 utc | 44
The US/EU call their airstrikes 'surgical' and the Russians call theirs 'pinpoint'. I hate the idea of all airwars, all wars in general, but especially bombs dropped from the sky on whatever the bombers think lies below. If they even care ... the US, Israel, and the KSA often just seem to have a quota of bombs to drop and drop them anywhere they can ... or worse, wherever they will create the most terror. Airwars are specifically total wars, against lands and peoples. The mark of 20th and now 21st century degeneracy.
I realize that someone has to stand up to the evil empire somewhere ... and it turns out to be in Syria/Iraq, and I'm glad the Russians are doing so. I hope that the Iranians are able to bring the war to the combatants themselves, on foot. I hope that Noirette is right, and I think she is, these mercenaries - al Nusra, Daesh ... all the various brands of al-CIA-da - are fine at murdering civilians but will look for the exits if a taste of their own poison is brought to them.
The problem then will be where they will be redeployed by the CIA. Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan, Xinjiang ... as long as the CIA - the USA, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate ... has 2 of our nickels to jingle together in his pants pocket he and they will be funding DD&D somewhere on earth.
I really hope that Putin can gain some traction in the UN, and certainly he has in the General Assembly, but it's Russia and China against the imperialist bunch in the UNSC. Putin knows exactly what we're up against ...
Yes, it is a challenge, and a complicated and time-consuming task, but there is simply no other alternative.
It would be good to hear of some specific measures in support of Vladimir Putin from the Chinese now.
Posted by: jfl | Sep 30 2015 23:11 utc | 45
@2 oui
Thanks for that fine map. I have no way of judging how uo-to-date it is but it identifies the contending forces and show here they've been recently in Syria. And for a long, long time in the case of Israel.
Posted by: jfl | Sep 30 2015 23:29 utc | 46
@ 45 jfl
I thought the Chinese aircraft carrier had arrived and parked with the Russian Navy? Have to wait and see what they do, but being there is no small thing.
And as far as "The problem then will be where they will be redeployed by the CIA. Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan, Xinjiang ... , wasn't that one of the stated reasons for Russia and China to get involved in Syria? These groups being exported to start trouble on their borders was a direct threat to their national security? I think if the Chechen and Uyghurs are already in Syria, they will be lucky to get out. Putin has been through this twice, and the Chinese will be out to squelch this before the show heads their way.
And with Iran and Iraq both sharing intelligence and more with Russia, China, and Syria, if the US and Turkey let them waltz out through Turkey then I think the blowback will be large for us (US) and Turkey.
I don't claim to know anything here, just my opinion. Hope it doesn't make me look a fool...
Tom in AZ
Posted by: Tom in AZ | Sep 30 2015 23:37 utc | 47
I think what I like the most about the diplomatic situation is that Putin is following all of the rules of the West to a "T". With his "our partners" blah blah and the handshakes with Obama, and Putin just has this big grin on his face, knowing he's sticking it to the West just like they've stuck to the world for the past 25 years. And they can't say a thing without looking like the hypocrites they are.
The West has been playing both sides of the game for so long, they don't even know which way is up. The lies coming out of the media are just so obvious no one believes them: my favorite today in WAPO was a sentence blaming the Syrian Government for ALL of the refugees. No one believes this, especially when we've been watching rebel atrocities for four years (it was an FSA man who was eating the soldiers liver, after all). Now the maps are just as funny - the divide is now between "ISIS" and "rebels" - but in this case of course "rebels" includes al Qaeda. Another step on the US rehabilitating its old frenemies.
We can expect the US media to continue these lies and obfuscations, after all, it is what they are paid for. But it is well known that these are a mountain of lies. Western confidence and trust in their media has never, ever been lower.
Very soon the US media and those in thinktank-landia will be cheering on al Qaeda who just 15 years ago we had declared a never-ending War on Terror to defeat. Good luck explaining that to the American people. Of course with the never ending rebrandings, it might be possible. To b, I hope you just stick with the original names. all this "Army of Conquest" nonsense is just CIA smoke and mirrors. In fact, it would be nice to see a whole post about how al Qaeda in Iraq, whom the US fought for so long, morphed into ISIL, who spawned al Nusrah while going on to become ISIS or however it happened. You know, just to make it clear that really, these are all the same people.
I'm not sure what the US is going to do. But they will have to do it "covertly". The best thing the Russians can do in this case is to capture as many communications between the CIA, the Turks, the GCC powers, and the rebels on the ground and present this evidence to the world via RT and other outlets. We can certainly expect ever more MH17 and Ghouta fakery.
===========
The majority of US citizen still considers 9/11 the start of all of this trouble, and truly hates more than any group (as they were trained to for so many years) al Qaeda. From the furthest left to the furthest right, outside of the Beltway Elite who created them, 99% of the American people hate al Qaeda. Putin should run with that. He should pick up the baton of those post-9/11, pre-Iraq War days when people were convinced that terrorism should be dealt with.
If Russia can make clear that they are doing the real work of fighting terrorism - work that the US fouled up with dishonest shenanigans over the last 15 years - they'll find plenty of supporters, even within the Western countries. Perhaps especially in the Western nations.
Thanks b, I hope this is the beginning of the end of US, saudi, turkish, qatari and sionist agression in Syria. God bless Mother Russia...
Posted by: guy | Oct 1 2015 0:31 utc | 49
@47 Tom in AZ
I have the same information you have on the Chinese aircraft carrier - and another ship attendent? And a rumored troop carrier that's supposedly passed through the suez canal? Pictures would be nice. And words of support from China. Xi, like Putin, has some credibility and he needs to speak for the resolve of 10 or 15 times as many people as Putin.
I certainly read of Putin's stated concern for the spread of al-CIA-da, in its presently most virulent Daesh form, to Central Asia and of his hopes to stop that in Syria/Iraq. I am sure that Russia and China are both intent on not letting the CIA disease spread.
But it's got to be more than 'just' Russia and China, no matter they are both very powerful countries. It has to be ...
... a genuinely broad, international coalition against terrorism, similar to the anti-Hitler coalition ...
... because that's what we're up against, worldwide. The USA/CIA/NPPL have been literally destroying whole nations worldwide - with great help from the EU, especially in Libya - and it is going to take a real, world-wide, anti-terror coalition 'similar to the anti-Hitler coalition' to end this.
I mentioned China, and I've yet to see Xi in print in support of the coalition, but it will take Brazil, India, South Africa, the other SCO members, the countries of South America ... Italy? Greece?, maybe there is no hope for Europe, maybe they are all firmly embedded members of the Axis ... and as Putin pointed out ...
... naturally, the Muslim countries are to play a key role in the coalition ... Muslim spiritual leaders as well ...
... Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia.
This really has to be a case of 'Which side are you on?' And certainly China needs to be not just passively, but vociferously, a leader. The biggest members of the coalition must lead, not be left to follow.
And it is not about killing all the al-CIA-da members in Syria/Iraq. They are just mercenaries who need to be given an alternative means of employment ... they are literally just heads themselves of the Hydra of deadend inequality, Muslim style, on offer on the poles of the CIA. It's become so obvious that Graham Fuller, the godfather of al-CIA-da and the Tsarnaevs, has now publicly diavowed his own monstrous spawn. Right. At least he knows which way the wind is blowing.
It is essential to prevent people recruited by militants from making hasty decisions, and those who have already been deceived, and who through various circumstances found themselves among terrorists, need help in finding a way back to normal life, laying down arms, and putting an end to fratricide.
... this 'war' is not going to be won amid the head-choppers. It is going to be won by the concerted effort of many, many nations - the General Assembly, not the Security Council - working together to prevent their own destruction by the US/EU DD&D machine, and more than that, to help each other to flourish in spite of it. What is required is an anti-terror coaliton providing an alternative to imperial terror, imperial death, devastation, and destruction. A coalition for life.
And I'd like to hear some more voices and commitment to that. Starting with China, whose century it now is, after all.
I don't think we disagree at all, Tom in AZ. I think I failed to make my point clearly enough.
Posted by: jfl | Oct 1 2015 0:44 utc | 50
With Russia bombing Syria, now expect liars from the West saying that all Al Qaeda and Isis will miraculously be converted into "moderates" all the "Free Syrian Army".
Remember the free Syrian Army, Who disappeared from existence of last couple years, well, they're back. And they will all happen to be under Russian bombs.
Posted by: tom | Oct 1 2015 1:11 utc | 51
45 that was an underground bunker less a bat more rat cave.
today is a bad day for roland the thompson gunner.
mercenaries of the world can at last charge better rates for the syriana theatre.
poland,latvia,usa usa,the empire of the city of london,the donmeh jewish house of saud turkey and jordan and above all tel aviv just lost a lot of government borne bonds and freelance killers.
if who dares wins wanna survive they need to go radio silent and avoid inmarsat phones those pesky russkis sending a large explosive message down that space signal yes sir.
what a headache
just not cricket
Posted by: charles drake | Oct 1 2015 1:48 utc | 53
Kerry gave a huge slap to Turkey, Qatar and the Saudis when he declared with Putin than SYRIA MUST BE SECULAR.
That is a death warrant to all the fighters whose goal is a Sunni Islamic government. That includes ISIS, Al Nusra, Ahrar al Sham and any rebel group affiliated with them.
Now Russia has a complete justification to bomb anything that has an Islamist goal in mind.
That is infuriating the "friends of Syria" who have been supporting these group and trying to conveniently ignore their affiliation.
The moderates rebels, if they are any and if they want to stay alive should rush out the areas and officially declare that they want a secular state. I doubt many will be allowed to do that.
Putin has made a master move and we will quickly see the result despite the huge anti-Russia propaganda that Saudi Arabia is unleashing to prevent Russia's success.
The irony is that Saudi Arabia in Yemen may have to call Russia for help to get rid of Al Qaeda that is creeping in the newly 'liberated' Aden.
Erdoganster and his hamster Davutoglu will probably be toppled in 2016, 5 years after they created a disaster in Syria by calling for the toppling of Bashar al Assad.
Will this be end of the series or only a season?
Posted by: Virgile | Oct 1 2015 1:56 utc | 54
I don't know how many of the MOA folks have read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein but I keep thinking about its description of the financial rape and locked into servitude of South America that occurred and is still occurring. With the ME, financial "Capitalization" hasn't worked so "control" is provided by having the US MIC provide the various factions with arms, stir the pot a bit with black opps and try not to get hit in the crossfire.
SECULAR keeps jumping into my head as well considering events. I consider it a coup to allow Russia's focus to include all non-secular factions. It really forces the US game either into the open or jump/shift plan whatever to cover US rabble rousing.....all in the name of Freedom (economic slavery).
But all this conjecture is above my pay grade. Once you have the prime German manufacture exposed as cooking the electronics for environmental reasons and extrapolate from the recent Jeep control remotely expose, I know I am glad I have limited electronics in my auto. Trust is being shown to be illusory by corporations and governments. All this will lead to further unrest and increased suppression until ???? I am saddened to think about the potential alternative leadership people around the world being killed continuously by the US government, because Empire. I hope it stops soon.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 1 2015 2:00 utc | 55
I sure hope Saudis are just flapping their gums, for their own sake. If Russians find out that Riyadh is increasing its support for anti-Assad forces, we will see Russian cargo vessels unloading mountains of weaponry in Yemen ports held by Houthis, escorted there by guided missile cruisers with enough firepower to sink all of the Saudi navy in a snap. People really need to start understanding who they are dealing with. Russia of today is not a hapless, sclerotic monstrosity with a dead ideology of 30 years ago, but a military power par excellence, which, according to Putin, simply run out of patience.
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 2:26 utc | 56
No wonder the Yankees are upset. Unlike Obama & The Cretins, Russia knows exactly what it's doing in Syria. But what Russia is doing isn't the best part of this story. The best part is that Tanya Plibersek, the so-called Labor Opposition spokes-person for Foreign Affairs, has been told, by the US Ambassador, to fill in for Julie Bishop and spout the anti-Assad & anti-Russian bullshit, which Julie Bishop would have spouted had she not been "busy" promoting Oz's chairmanship of the UNSC in ... 2029!. No other country has registered for that timeslot and Neo-lib Oz hates competition...
Anyway, Tanya's "wisdom" in outing Labor as just as Neo-Liberal and pro-1% as the "Privatise Everything" Liberals, is now a matter of record and Australians who don't vote Green or Independent are just as guilty of selling out as Liberal and Labor's supine traitors.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 1 2015 2:52 utc | 57
@50 jfl
Thanks for the reply. I think we are pretty much in agreement, and you seem to be ahead of me re the need for more than just Russia and China. This fight needs many more, if only to keep the pressure on those that want to continue the empire at all costs.
@51 to Tom
With Russia bombing Syria, now expect liars from the West saying that all Al Qaeda and Isis will miraculously be converted into "moderates" all the "Free Syrian Army".
I was listening to 'liberal' MSNBC Sirius a few minutes ago and the panel was doing that and more. Putin and Lavrov tell nothing but lies, Assad is killing hundreds of thousands of his own people and making the EU refugee crisis worse every day. He only bombed the 'moderates'and ignored ISIS. None of it challenged, even with the known facts the opposite. Maddening.
@54 Virgile
Kerry gave a huge slap to Turkey, Qatar and the Saudis when he declared with Putin than SYRIA MUST BE SECULAR.
I would like to know the name of one secular group our country has trained and armed and set loose in the ME. Ever.
Thanks for that.
Posted by: Tom in AZ | Oct 1 2015 2:57 utc | 58
About the (1) pinpoint bombing, and the (2) possible covert treachery by the west.
(1) I can't think of anyone I'd trust more with a bombing campaign than the Rusian military. These are moral Christian people flying those planes, something we are no longer accustomed to take into account. Russia has no desire to bomb, and then come back and bomb again. We've seen bombing misused by the US for so long to kill civilians that we've forgotten its true military purpose. It's only Day 1. Very soon, Russia will be finished with destroying the infrastructure. Then the boots will move in - we may see Iran and Hezbollah in the field then. Russian fighters will only appear in tactical support of boots in action.
(2) I suppose as a complete non-expert that the more sophisticated the weaponry that gets delivered to the retreating terrorists by the western forces, the more clear, digital and undeniable the fingerprints on that weaponry will be. Everyone, from the the grandest Yank to the most exalted King to the silliest Frenchman, will be on record. Russia's intelligence systems are just too good - the Russians specialize in knowing everything that's moving, everywhere. These western people have no idea what kind of professionalism they're up against. There's no cover left, no place to hide. Covert action is not possible - don't they know that Putin will kill them in the toilet if that's where he finds them?
Posted by: Grieved | Oct 1 2015 3:07 utc | 59
Russian Airstrike in Syria Targeted CIA-Backed Rebels, U.S. Officials Say
One area hit was location primarily held by rebels receiving funding, arms, training from CIA and allies
By ADAM ENTOUS
Updated Sept. 30, 2015 10:06 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON—A Russian airstrike Wednesday targeted an area in western Syria primarily held by rebel forces backed by the Central Intelligence Agency and allied spy services, U.S. officials said.
The direct targeting of U.S.-backed rebels by Russian aircraft could escalate tensions with Moscow, which said it deployed attack aircraft to Syria to help the regime of Bashar al-Assad in the fight against Islamic State. U.S. officials said... [The start of WSJ paywall]
Compare with Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Sep 30, 2015 6:07:55 PM | 39
"The Saudis have funded the rebels, as is well known. But I cannot see any evidence that the CIA has been funding the rebels. I cannot see any reliable such evidence from the rebels themselves, and neither can I see any evidence from the Syrian government about it. The Syrian government has not reported any such evidence. Secondly, I haven't seen adequate attestations from USA sources in USA that the CIA has been funding 10,000 rebels with US$1 billion."
OK, we have no evidence but some web sources and we have to judge which are credible. Why the Administration should lie that CIA funds rebels who are loose canons (favorite pastime: planting car bombs in civilian areas), or why Wall Street Journal should lie that Administration official said so?
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 1 2015 3:14 utc | 60
The other wondrous feature of this development is just how 'circumspect' the World's 2nd Ex-Superpower has become. Here's the first chance AmeriKKKa has had since WWII to show just how Super its Power really is, and what are its spokesmen doing? Cringeing on the sidelines and whining like a gaggle of 10-year old girls...
Some things are hard to believe, even when you're watching them unfold.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 1 2015 3:19 utc | 61
@2 oui... thanks for the fair link..
@8 william bowles.. as you note, the usa/uk and western folks are great at propaganda.. unfortunately not everyone is buying the propaganda, which is one of the reasons for a desire to silence people like snowden or outlets like rt..
@10 -bowles maxist link.. i like the last paragraph.. it is something psychohistorian would probably relate well to also..
@13 tom.. last sentence of yours is probably true..
@14 pat, @16 karlof1, 17 zico,19 yul, @22ntg, 24 lonewolf @31 farflungstar.. thanks all.. i agree with your views and sentiment.
@32 psychohistorian.. we'll see how it all goes..
@33 willy2.. thanks.. link on the bottom is 404..
@34 zico.. i see the propaganda the west spins as one of a few important problems to deal with here.. this moderate terrorist label never held any water with me, but there are a lot of naive folks who seem to believe in tooth ferries too - aka - the good ship lollipop usa and all that rot..
@38 PavewayIV.. good point.. i doubt it, but never trust a neo con to stop the insanity..
@39 Ghubar Shabih.. bullshit.. confirmation on the ground is the fact that after 3-4 years ISIS is further ahead then they were prior to the usa pouring money on this fire.. that tells us much - first - the usa has been set on regime change and will use ISIS in it's move towards that.. the cia never saw a paid for mercenary army they didn't love when they are going after there beloved regime change target.. that article from fair.org was especially good for you, as you seem to prefer relying on nyt, wsj and wapo disinformation to come to your conclusions. waiting for good evidence on the cia's action? rof.. everything is stamped top secret not to be revealed until 50 or more years later if you are lucky.. talk to you in 2065 and see if you've got below a surface read..
@42 charles drake.. impressive. thanks..
@51 tom.. true that..
@55 psychohistorian.. i read naomi kleins latest - 'this changes everything', but haven't read shock doctrine.. i like her writing and work..
@56 MMARR.. saudi arabia leadership seem completely fucking retarded..
@59 grieved.. i hope you are bang on in your assessment of russia military..
@61 Hoarsewhisperer.. that seems really true.. hard to believe, but that is what it looks like to me as well.....
Posted by: james | Oct 1 2015 3:31 utc | 62
@61
I think Putin delivered a very stark message to Obama at their latest 50-minute pow wow. Something along the lines "Barak, we've had enough of you and your country. We will not be announcing any red lines publicly, but any further movement on your part will precipitate our exit from all nuclear arms treaties and more than likely a nuclear war. It's up to you now. Bye". Since Putin is unassuming, bombast-free man, he can be rather convincing.
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 3:31 utc | 63
The Daily Star has an informative report about the Russian attacks from closer to the action. The Russian Orthodox Church is praising the attacks and calling it a 'Holy Battle', sounds like Christian Jihadis. In his comments Putin stated that one of the goals is to kill Russians fighting in Syria before they return home.
Civilians reported that there was no warning of the coming attack because the Russians were flying at a much higher altitude than attacking Syrian planes, this may have added to the number of civilians killed in the attacks.
The statement in the post above 'they don't differentiate between different groups' meaning Russia may be starting a campaign of indiscriminate bombing with civilians little more than collateral damage.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Oct 1 2015 3:34 utc | 64
Ghubar Shabih @ 39,
There are other proofs of US training ISIS, but this is the one that comes to hand:
http://yournewswire.com/declassified-documents-obama-ordered-cia-to-train-isis/
Posted by: Penelope | Oct 1 2015 3:36 utc | 65
William Bowles @ 10
Thanks for the http://www.marxist.com/why-is-russia-stepping-up-involvement-in-syria.htm link.
I've been reading Takis Fotopoulos on Russia's options regarding her economy, which is in terrible shape. You might be interested ; it's also about disentangling from the power (banking) structure. http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/22-12-2014/129352-russia_transnational_elite-0/#sthash.QNMTEjr2.dpuf
Posted by: Penelope | Oct 1 2015 3:37 utc | 66
@64 wow
the smoke hadn't even cleared when the photos showing the dead were also found published elsewhere 5 days prior to the Russians even flying.
The statement in the post above 'they don't differentiate between different groups' meaning Russia may be starting a campaign of indiscriminate bombing with civilians little more than collateral damage.
It means nothing of the sort, troll. It means a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. You're so full of it your eyes are brown. And 'collateral damage', a term used by our country going way back and we didn't even call the civilians 'little more', like they weren't even that.
Posted by: Tom in AZ | Oct 1 2015 3:55 utc | 67
@ 62 "saudi arabia leadership seem completely fucking retarded.. "
Yes, but nothing that can't be cured by a series of military defeats. Besides, KSA is living on a borrowed time anyway. Since oil prices will stay low for a prolonged period (unless we have another bout of money printing by the Fed), Saudis will run out of their financial reserves in 4-5 years. After that, it's lights out.
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 4:02 utc | 68
Russia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, China working together to exterminate the Western backed vermin.
Finally I can hope for something better than the 'indispensable and exceptional' lunacy of the West.
Posted by: AriusArmenian | Oct 1 2015 4:04 utc | 69
@64
Daily Star? Really? Why not just go to the source and quote Saudi newspapers?
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 4:12 utc | 70
@Grieved@59
As pinpointed as any bombing can be, using cutting edge technology, ground intel, and the highest moral army, there will always be civilians killed. Civilian casualties only follow truth as primary victims in any war. We have to remember that IS/Qaeda are, after all, human beings, have families, wives, sometimes more than one, children, relatives, etc., and many have been carrying their families with them for years, from front to front, battle to battle. Many of these people live in a grey zone, they are non-combatants, civilians, companions to the IS/Qaeda ground troops, and many of them will be caught in the maelstrom, and be killed with their partners, parents, children, relatives.
There are many others who honestly believe Assad must go, and who support the so-called "rebels" out of a sincere belief that Assad is evil incarnate, and have been supporting them for years. This second, third, fourth tier of IS/Qaeda support will also suffer, even more now when the fighters will be looking for protection, avoiding large buildings and troop concentrations, moving in to blend with the civilian population. Many of these people will also be killed. The corrupt MSM will rush to blame the Russians for many of these deaths; however, the Russians have long prepared for this moment, and as Lavrov told the press today before meeting with Kerry, "don't trust the Pentagon reports, ask the Russian Ministry of Defense."
The death of civilians is the only certainty in any war, and many will be killed by the Russian bombing. The corrupt "Syrian Observatory" and MSM will not care to ask where did these people live, what were they doing in IS/Qaeda territory. They were ready before the Russian campaign jumped off to blame the Russians for any casualties, civilians or not, and to pile up the casualty count same way they did in Nam with the VC.
War is hell. People die. Civilians die. Any war, anywhere. That's the nature of the beast.
Posted by: Lone Wolf | Oct 1 2015 4:13 utc | 71
@TinA
I don't rely on Western news sources, my info was from local ME sources, more news and less spin. Local reports from local civilians from outside the spin of NGO's and other Western sources is usually more accurate as the pictures you mention show. This type of warfare I view as Coward Warfare whether it is waged by the US, Europe or Russia and the Russians have begun their campaign showing no better tactics, expertise or execution than the cowardly US military, that's why I used the collateral damage term.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Oct 1 2015 4:17 utc | 72
Posted by: Guest77 | Sep 30, 2015 9:22:24 PM | 52
Thanks for the link.
"op-ed chinstrokers" is a delicious back-hander for the MSM's liars & fantasists.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 1 2015 4:18 utc | 73
@WayoutwithIS/Qaeda@64
The Daily Star has an informative report about the Russian attacks from closer to the action.
Read, the Daily Star, a Saudi-funded takfiri rag, got some anti-Russian lies/slander/mud from an IS/Qaeda embedded journo in Syria with a satellite phone.
Posted by: Lone Wolf | Oct 1 2015 4:35 utc | 74
This whining from the US flunkies is probably accurate. Not to mention predictable, and not a little pathetic.
Putin very obviously intervened in Syria because he had Intel that "the West" was about to turn its fighter jets against Assad's army in a replay of what went down in Libya
Why else would the first planes be SU-30 fighters?
So he clearly wants to warn off the Yanks, and what better way to signal that I F**king Well Mean Business! than to make it his 1st business to whack some of "Obama's Good Badguys(tm)".
Shock! Horror! The man's not bluffing!
No shit, hey Sherlock. All that Ivy League education, and not a functioning brain amongst 'em
Putin wants the USA / Turkey / Saudi Arabia to leave Syria alone.
So stop whining and start weighing-up: are you willing to get into a shooting war with Russia over Syria, or aren't you.
Because he is, and he's sending a not-very-subtle message to that effect by going out of his way to whack " Obama's Good Badguys" first
Posted by: Yeah, Right | Oct 1 2015 5:05 utc | 75
I say to you, you shouldn't believe this claim about the CIA until after you've seen good evidence for it. As far as I know, you haven't seen good evidence. If you think otherwise, ask yourself could you be prejudiced and biased? are you not making an inference on the basis of insufficient info?
Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Sep 30, 2015 6:07:55 PM | 39
Read this, Ghubar.
https://gowans.wordpress.com/2015/09/26/avoiding-the-failure-of-libya-us-strategy-in-syria/
And then come back and apologise (to yourself) for being a Dunce.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 1 2015 5:23 utc | 76
I am not a fan of Putin whatsoever, but some PR talking points could be really helpful, if not spoken by the diplomatic Putin, then by his spokespeople.
And separate from benefiting the Russians, they are just good talking points.
Should start off by saying the US "war on terror" ( fraud) has been such a disaster, that it's given rise to ISIL, Al Qaeda, and the creation of a terrorist caliphate that's larger in size than Great Britain.
make use of the example of Libya which is another glaring example. Where mass-murderous chaos still reigns in Libya after the US bombing campaign that ended up served ISIL and other terrorists most of all.
Then you can move on to Afghanistan which generally has been a war crimes spree, and the recent loss of Kunduz.
If I was going on American talk shows, you don't have to use my aggressive language, but to be more effective, you have to show how disastrous the US war on terror has been. Mostly from a humanitarian, political and social standpoint but also as a strategic disaster.
Their role as world leadership, you know the BS 'as the light on the hill' has been irreparably damaged.
Posted by: tom | Oct 1 2015 5:44 utc | 77
Reading that one would think that the French police lets them escape on purpose. But when you live in France you know it was not on purpose but just out of stupidity.
http://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2015/10/01/terrorisme-itineraire-et-profil-des-quatre-francais-inscrits-sur-la-liste-noire-des-etats-unis_4779081_3210.html
Posted by: Mina | Oct 1 2015 6:15 utc | 78
Noirette, #15 on "IS" you have a point here. "IS" is for "al-dawla al-islamiyya", where indeed "dawla" has both meaning of 'state' and 'revolution'.
Posted by: Mina | Oct 1 2015 6:27 utc | 80
@36
Ok the fact that themselves says it will be hard just give more proof to what I am saying here, again lets go back to this thread in some weeks and see who was right.
Posted by: ZIP | Oct 1 2015 6:56 utc | 81
'Modernization' of USA Anti-Propaganda Law
○ Repeal of the Smith-Mundt Act by US Congress, the so-called anti-propaganda law of 1948;
○ Executive Order for implementation of 'Nudge' theory by Samantha Power's husband Cass Sustein: directing federal agencies to incorporate Behavioral and Social Science into their policies.
○ Fact Sheet: President Obama Signs Executive Order
White House Announces New Steps to Improve Federal Programs by "Leveraging Research Insights"
B. Shaaban on yesterday
http://www.rt.com/news/317140-russia-syria-strikes-succeed/
Posted by: Mina | Oct 1 2015 8:20 utc | 83
no surprise
Saudi Arabia says deeply concerned at Russia attacks on Syria
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-mideast-crisis-syria-saudi-idUSK
Posted by: okie farmer | Oct 1 2015 9:18 utc | 84
7
#JohnMcCainArmedandFundedI$I$ did not 'have a sad'. McCain is a war criminal arms merchant. His Arizona is #2 behind South Carolina in Defense contracts, and #1 for Israeli DHS subcontracts. He is undoubtedly supporting #3 global arms manufacturer Ukraine's weapons sales into Syria through Turkey, and don't forget, 'rainmakers' like McCain (and Clinton) get a 1% commish on every transfer of arms and US taxpayer funds, just like all the insider-trading Congress Criminals, and their 32 foreign nations 'Made in USA (sic)' War Department subcontractors. There are so many SB, DBE, WME, 8a HUBZone War Department subcontractors now, in addition to the 32 foreign nations, that the Pentagon is the largest Corporation on the planet, the only corporation besides the Fed that doesn't have to show a profit, and like the Fed, can never be, and will never be, audited.
Gog Magog, and it's all over now, Baby Red, White and Blue.
Posted by: Chipnik | Oct 1 2015 10:52 utc | 85
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pentagon-warns-of-new-concerns-in-conflict-with-russia/ar-AAeX8Dj?ocid=spartanntp
The strikes sharply increase tensions with Russia as U.S. officials dispute Moscow’s claim that its aircraft targeted the Islamic State, the brutal extremist group that controls much of Syria and Iraq. Instead, U.S. officials said the strikes appeared to target opponents of Syria’s embattled President Bashar al-Assad, a key Russian ally. Those hit include U.S.-backed units that were trained and armed by the CIA, officials said.
Accusing Russia of “pouring gasoline on the fire,” Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter vowed that U.S. pilots would continue their year-long bombing campaign against the Islamic State in Syria, despite Moscow’s warning to keep American planes away from its operations.
“I think what they’re doing is going to backfire and is counterproductive,” Carter said.
Posted by: okie farmer | Oct 1 2015 11:10 utc | 86
68
Oh, come on. You are channeling the spirit of libtard. KSA Prince Bandar said the Kingdom would prefer oil in the $25 range, back when oil was $15, and Cheney IMMEDIATELY obliged by baking a nice Yellow Cake, driving oil to $145, against Saudi production costs today of $15 -$20, or possibly less, it was $5 when Bandar demanded $25.
They are still making a $250 to $300 million, a day, in pure profit, all to the royal family, but thier investments are not all liquid or unwindable without buy-sell clipping, the markets are fapping for now, to where even Bill Gross says go 100% cash, and the new King has considerable expenses for unemployment social welfare and the Hajj, with two horrible PR disasters.
That was be in the rear view mirror by this time next year, when the triple-leveraged USA 'fracking miracle' implodes, and takes the stock and bond markets with it. We may never see a severe contango, to where more than a few weeks of oil demand is held offline, but every USA play that went in at $45 to $85 when oil was $100 to $145, is now as upside down as the US mortgage market in 2008, and it will be a massive rout.
KSA will pump right through the contango, and take over Yemen's newly discovered oil and gas reserves at the same time, like Israel simply stole Gaza's offshore natural gas fields. Russia will fight for its life in Syria trying to spike oil prices again, the KSA-RU publicity is pure PSYOP.
They're both oiligarchies, and both controlled by the Tribe.
'It's just business, get over it.'
Posted by: Chipnik | Oct 1 2015 11:15 utc | 87
"As long as they do that, bomb from the air, there is no way Russia could win this fight, this bombing will look like US bombing, that is - a mess and a war that you cannot win.
I sense russians soon will look upon this as Afghanistan war in the 80s, I hope I am wrong but it doesnt look good at all imo."
Nope. You forgot that there is syrian army there, which is the best sort of "boots on the ground" one could wish for. There was no such thing in Afghanistan, it's a flawed comparison.
I'm quite sure this whole ISIS theater will be a thing of the past in a year or so. As soon as the funding stops (seems like that is already happening) and the supply lines get thinner, they will be a gonner.
Posted by: zedz | Oct 1 2015 12:08 utc | 88
Russian Military Command HQ in Baghdad – coordination for intelligence/attack on Islamic State
○ Iraq says Russia, Iran, Syria cooperating on security issues in Baghdad
Interesting, this from TASS:
"We’ve just been witnesses to the demise of the monopolar world," Colonel-General Ivashov, a former chief of the Defense Ministry’s international cooperation department, told TASS in an interview. "There will soon be a long line of states eager to join the Russian coalition in the Middle East. The United States will eventually join it, too.""Interaction by the Russian air force group, Syrian government troops, Iranian commandos and Kurdish militias will be carried out through the single coordination centre in Baghdad. Russian and Syrian officers share the same terminology. Most of Syria’s officers were trained at Russia’s military academies on the basis of Russian manuals, rules and standards. They were instructed in the use of Russian military equipment, which the Syrian government troops now have at their disposal," Ivashov said.
"Russia has dispatched to Syria its advanced front-line bombers, fighter-planes, assault aircraft, helicopters and reconnaissance planes. Our aircraft are equipped with infrared decoy flares protecting them from heat-seeking Stinger missiles. Operations by Russia’s Air Forces will be coordinated in terms of timing, altitude and areas of responsibility," Ivashov said.
"At the moment Russia’s largest group of advisers outside the country is in Syria. One can forecast with a great deal of certainty the just-started operation against the terrorist group IS will be highly effective," Ivashov said.
http://tass.ru/en/opinions/825319
Posted by: William Bowles | Oct 1 2015 13:04 utc | 90
"As long as they do that, bomb from the air, there is no way Russia could win this fight...
for 10 years israel specialists teams trained georgians kosher and american weapons pres suck hats villi the shining light of freedom.
an army deconstructed in 5 days and that was with 1000s of russian tactical mistakes.
russia learns lessons fast.
what we will see russia do today is not about winning but deconstructing golani,cia,mi6 and sas bases.
communications take downs scattering the oded yinon mole men who hide and direct underground.
ploughing the fields and scattering toyota nike white sneaker wipe out.
langley gonna have to get sports shoe direct on speaker phone for another bulk order.
russian sukhoi as sheepdogs channeling the cia"s dustyfied beards these bad tel aviv acts for a long walk home to israhole.
how would fed ex or dhl logistics survive if they could not coordinate if depots no longer existed.
putin asked the other day who is funding isil who is buying the oil they pump.
takfiri cia war control logistics logistics v sukhoi controlled demolition a band of brother rape apes one minute next your on your own bravo 2 zero.
broadsword calling danny boy come in over
static silence
not a proud day for david sterling frank kitson gladio
the brits and the yanks have shut black briar and treadstone down and left men behind enemy lines.
poor show not cricket.
Posted by: charles drake | Oct 1 2015 13:08 utc | 91
Chomsky once said International politics was so simple even a reasonably intelligent 15 year old could understand it. The US think the Russians and it seems everyone else is as stupid as John Kerry looks. Even the dogs in the street know the US are playing duplicitous games. The motley group of head choppers in Syria and Iraq have no chance against the might of Iran,Iraq,Syria, Hezbollah and possibly China. Seal that border with Turkey and its over for the vermin.
Posted by: harry law | Oct 1 2015 13:42 utc | 92
I must be confused. Doesn't the US define a "moderate" as someone who is NOT going to fight the Syrian govt, but only fight ISIS? So if they're fighting the SAA they are NOT moderates.
I mean, wasn't the US vetting them specifically to find those who would fight ISIS, and not join it in fighting the govt?
Posted by: Penelope | Oct 1 2015 14:40 utc | 93
I think "moderate" aka nusra at the time was initially meant to quell the obvious employment and armament of al Q's by the US Saudi Turkish Israeli clan.
Posted by: Eureka Springs | Oct 1 2015 14:46 utc | 94
Mike Whitney at CP says Putin acted quickly after US was given permission to use Incarlik air base,which gives US a 15 minute instead of 3 hour flight to the conflict zone.
The NY lying Times is hard at sayanim work today,with total BS as fact,as they try to sway US to believe that some of these rebels are moderate,instead of a coalition of head choppers and historical landmark destroyers.And it seems the comments are fixed,as reality is not being represented in responses,instead idiotic Zionist Russian hatred.
Of course it could be a reflection of who buys their content,as any sane and reasoned person would not.
Posted by: dahoit | Oct 1 2015 14:53 utc | 95
@93
America's "definitions" change defending on who they talk to, time of the day, weather, and Obama's mood. Nobody knows what the US mean by "moderate". Pretty soon ISIS thugs will become "moderate" as soon as they get hit by a Russian missile.
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 15:52 utc | 96
LW@74
Projecting misinformation will just leave you and others misinformed. The Daily Star has been owned for 63 years by a single Lebanese family. They did sell their Arabic daily Al Hayat to a Saudi prince a few years ago but that was just business. They wouldn't need to go behind a paywall, as they are doing now, if they had Saudi lucre propping up their takfiri presses.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Oct 1 2015 15:54 utc | 97
@96 The Russian message is pretty clear IMO. Moderate rebels would be wise not to hang out with Chechens, Uighurs, Kosovans etc.
Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2015 15:59 utc | 98
This is an article of German DIE ZEIT magazine: "The New Syria Comes from [Berlin-]Wilmersdorf"
http://www.zeit.de/2012/31/Syrien-Bundesregierung/komplettansicht
Summary: Retired Bundeswehr generals AND members of the Muslim Brotherhood (et al.) trained Syrian rebels in 2012.
They must have had a weird sense of secularism right from the beginning.
Posted by: Klaus Weiß | Oct 1 2015 16:03 utc | 99
@87
Remember, using word "contango" multiple times doesn't make your post any less idiotic.
KSA is already running 20% budget deficit at these oil prices, and since their population - and therefore welfare demands - grows by 2% annually, the gap will only grow.
Saudis can borrow $120B/yr, or sell $120B of their overseas assets every 365 days. Whichever way it goes, their $650B kitty will be gone before you learn to talk like an adult.
Your rant about US shell oil should probably be discussed elsewhere - I think you went there just to get an opportunity to use the word "contango" once more.
Posted by: MMARR | Oct 1 2015 16:08 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
And how, pray tell, Mister Saudi Arabia foreign minister, do you expect to get those weapons to your folks? Something tells me that Erdogan may not be reliable too much longer.
Posted by: kafkananda | Sep 30 2015 18:46 utc | 1