Some More Greece Referendum Links
Some more links to Greece ...
Interfluidity with probably the best piece on Greece explaining how the Euro introduction led to the current situation in Europe and in Greece.
The IMF econometrics people tried to save whatever is left of their reputation by publishing their results that call for debt relief for Greece. Some European countries tried to prevent the release. This attempt to keep the information away from the Greek before they vote shows again how undemocratic these "leaders" are. That the European Central Bank closed the money line of Greek banks and thereby forced their closure before the referendum is part of such an undemocratic and a terrorizing strategy. How can the ECB under its rules offer money to a basket case like Bulgaria, which is not even an ECB member, but not keep the money line to Greek banks open?
The IMF, like the rest of the troika, still pretends that more austerity in Greece could somehow end the crisis. That is nonsense! You can not increase taxes on the general population, cut government expenditures and at the same time expect economic growth. That does not compute and any model that forecasts such an outcome is obviously bogus. Need proof? Look at Greece which by now had to try this impossible stunt for some five years. It can't and therefore doesn't work.
A fifteen minute interview (vid) with the Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. The government of Greece seems to be reacting, not acting according to a well though out plan. Varoufakis tries to paper over it but I don't find him convincing.
(On a Monday deadline and therefore still very busy ...)
Posted by b on July 4, 2015 at 17:48 UTC | Permalink
"How can the ECB under its rules offer money to a basket case like Bulgaria, which is not even an ECB member, but not keep the money line to Greek banks open?"
Or The Ukraine ?
Posted by: psakiwacky | Jul 4 2015 18:20 utc | 3
Varoufakis sez he's got a secret plan to win the economic war. We've heard something similar in history, and it didn't turn out well. Engdahl saying Varoufakis is an insidious EU insider. I doubt that.
http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150704/1024206753.html
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 18:29 utc | 4
What is not being talked about is the private nature of the IMF, World Bank, etc. All this debt is held by the global plutocrats that want their pound of flesh from Greece. If the debt was held by sovereign countries, we wouldn't be having the power struggles that are currently under way.
When is some country like China going to point out to the brainwashed America public that their money supply is not sovereign but more owned by the global plutocrats and their world of private finance?
Can the world evolve to having finance become a public utility? I certainly hope so. Its way past time to deprecate the notion that the best and brightest of our species comes from inherited rich because it seems the opposite is now the case.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 4 2015 19:31 utc | 5
james @ 2: "that first link is very good.."
Agreed.
Thanks b, good articles.
Posted by: ben | Jul 4 2015 20:04 utc | 6
@yellowsnapdragon,
Tsipras and Varoufakis were loaded with Soros money. Syriza is a American-WallStree-funded fake opposition.
Wayne MADSEN 29.01.2015
A Soros «Trojan Horse» inside the New Greek Government?
http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/29/a-soros-trojan-horse-inside-the-new-greek-government.html
Vladimir Putin has unmasked Tsipras in St Petersburg.
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 20:21 utc | 7
More about Tsipras fraud
Udo Ulfkotte citing German secret service sources claims that the government of Alexis Tsipras has just signed a deal worth 4.2 billion euros with Lockheed Martin to modernize aircraft, and that this deal will be accompanied by bribes for the top military.
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 20:25 utc | 8
@yellowsnapdragon,
Also William Engdahl is a very well informed guy.
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 20:33 utc | 9
Has Tsipras ASPHYXIATED the Greek economy for political purposes?
* THE INTRODUCTION OF CAPITAL CONTROLS BY TSIPRAS SEEM TO BE A MEDIA STUNT
*ECB LIQUIDITY SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO COVER HIGH LEVEL OF BANK WITHDRAWALS ALL THIS WEEK
*GREEK EMERGENCY PAYMENTS COMMITTEE CONTROLLED BY BANKS IS RATIONING MONEY
*IS THIS SECRETIVE COMMITTEE RESTRICING MONEY ARTIFICALLY TO ENGINEER A CRISIS IN GREECE AHEAD OF A REFERENDUM?
Banks closed. Cash machines capping withdrawals at only 60 euros. Lines of pensioners jostling to get into a limited number of banks opened on one day specially to pay out pensions have become a media symbols of the misery facing Greece. But has that misery been engineered?
The ECB has capped emergency liquidity to Greece at a total of 89 billion euros for this week.
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/ecb-keeps-limits-on-emergency-loans-to-greek-banks-20150702-00039
Eight-nine billion euros is a huge amount, up 30 billion euro from the emergency liquidity granted to Greece in February. It is the equivalent to about two thirds of all the deposits held in Greek banks at 133.7 billion euros as of April 30th, 2015.
Grk deposits
A large chunk of the 133.7 billion euros deposited in Greek banks in April appears, in fact, to have been the liquidity from the European central bank at 74,371,699,442 billion euros, according to Greek central bank statistics (though I am no expert on statistics).
http://www.bankofgreece.gr/BogEkdoseis/financialstat201504_en.pdf
At any rate, it seems that the ECB has given enough liquidity to cover even high levels of withdrawals in Greece this week. So, why the capital controls and restrictions?
Has the Greek government and central government artificially restricted the ECB liquidity reaching the people and companies precisely in order to create misery? To generate media images of crisis?
On Monday, the June 29th, the Telegraph reported that money in Greece is being rationed by an emergency payments committee made up of key agencies and banks.
Has this instransparent emergency committee been deliberately asphyxiating the economy to engineer a social crisis and create panic?
It is very difficult to explain the sudden, severe shortage of money in Greece looking at the emergency liquidity of the ECB. It looks like some body in Greece has decided to use only a portion of the available liquidity.
What do others think about the apparent mismatch between ECB and Greek central bank liquidity?
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 20:44 utc | 10
@7 Engdahl is good but not faultless. Wayne Madson is not credible. Do you have a link for Putin at St Petersburg "unmasking" Tsipras? Somewhere in my memory lurks a Tsipras/Bilderburg connection but no source to support it.
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 20:50 utc | 11
@7 Also note that Soros was, er, "investing" in Greece when Syriza was getting about 3% of the Greek vote.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/george-soros-funds-solidarity-centres-greece-economic-crisis?CMP=share_btn_tw
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 20:59 utc | 12
By the simply by the fact:
1. Putin took away Turkey and Greece of game and made Germany as the main hub for gas in Europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Le5quHSa-k
2. Tsipras refused out of blue the Russian-Chinese help to save Greece.
3. The Russian secret service exposes it today
http://info.kopp-verlag.de/hintergruende/enthuellungen/udo-ulfkotte/was-deutsche-medien-verschweigen-die-cia-und-der-countdown-in-athen.html
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 21:00 utc | 13
Correction. Syriza was polling at around 25% at the time of that Guardian article, not 3%.
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 21:05 utc | 14
From January 2013:
Mr. Tsipras Comes to Washington (Brookings Institution)
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/25-tsipras-washington-antholis-lombardi
''The Brookings Institution is an American think tank based on Embassy Row in Washington, D.C.,[1] in the United States. One of Washington's oldest think tanks, Brookings conducts research and education in the social sciences, primarily in economics, metropolitan policy, governance, foreign policy, and global economy and development.''
Tsipras also met with State Department officials Assistant Secretary of State Erik Rubin and Deputy Finance Minister Christopher Smart.
In 2013 from an online Irish political forum:
"Seem like Wall Street want to get more down and dirty in the European debt crisis. he is playing the table now on both sides. what's next funding for Paul Murphy and the Socialist Party in Ireland? George Soros is seriously twisted individual."
http://www.politics.ie/forum/europe/206327-why-does-george-soros-sponsors-alexis-tsipras.html
Hah. Check mate. This guy is a fraud.
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 21:07 utc | 15
b:
The interviewer was rather beligerent. His tone was harsh and his questions were drawn from Troika-firendly talking points. The media campaign sometimes subtle, sometimes not) against Syriza has been persistent. First, that they were incompetent and would eventually cave in, then that they were undemocratic and uninterested in the plight of their own people (because GRexit would mean additional hardship), then that Tsipras had 'betrayed' his people (ignoring Syriza's insistence on debt restructuring - why? because the Troika would not discuss it!), and now casting blame on Syriza for the bank closures (which Greece was forced to do when the ECB would not increase ELA).
All along there is also the subtext: the Greeks are profligate and won't pay their bills. What is NOT said (or not said much, given its importance) is where the problems originated: with international bankers, and EU and Greek plutocrats.
I believe that Varoufakis and Syriza have had a plan. Varoufakis wrote of it in his blog months before Syriza was elected, and they have reiterated it many times: to renegotiate the memorandum and end austerity in a sensible way that is best for Greece and Europe.
They have been criticized as 'crazy' to do this. Not because it doesn't make sense but because of the "political realities" that are dictated by the Troika! Why is it better that senseless policies that create hardship for millions be enforced so that politicians that bailed out banks do not suffer embarrassment and defeat?
=
Syriza refused to produce a proposal before the April 30th deadline as demanded by the Troika. I believe that they failed to do so NOT because they are incompetent but because the February Agreement which set this 'deadline' was forced upon them (via threats to Greek banking). This 'Agreement' established a 2-step process whereby the Greeks would first describe how they would service the debt BEFORE debt restructuring talks could begin. This greatly disadvantaged the Greeks because:
a) their comprehensive plan called required all three: structural reforms; debt restructuring; and new investment.b) the Greeks had been promised debt restructuring in the past, and it never materialized.
In early May, Yanis was effective shut out of the EuroGroup and the members of the Left Platform were saying that the effort to reason with the Troka had failed. At that point, I believe, Syriza's strategy changed from quiet diplomacy and reason to confrontation. This strategy would (necessarily) culminate in the referendum.
In the weeks that followed, Syriza delivered a proposal - which included debt restructuring that could not have included prior to April 30th - that was not acceptable. Then Syriza revised their proposal in a way that was not acceptable (narrowing the 'gap' with tax increases instead of spending cuts). The press hyped Tsipras' "capitulation" (was it, really?) and the Troika then put forth its 'take-it-or-leave-it' offer - which prompted Tsipras to call the referendum. Along the way, Tsipras wrote his Op-Ed in Le Monde.
=
Criticism on the "left" has generally* been that Syriza should've immediately established capital controls and threatened GRexit. But that would've harmed the economy and they had no mandate for GRexit. Syriza would've faced a storm of protest over such moves. The path that they took has smartly advanced Greece's interests. And now - especially after the IMF report on Greece's debt sustainability - Syriza has a realistic chance of a 'NO' vote that would give them the authority to threaten a GRexit and to thereby reach a comprehensive deal (as they initially argued for) that is very favorable to Greece. Or GRexit (if necessary).
* Yves Smith at nakedcapitalism.com has a quite different view. She believes that Syriza should've capitulated "on day 1" to because the Troika had all the cards and fighting them only puts "what's left of the European Left" at risk. I won't comment on this except for this: IF "what's left of the European Left" needs such a sacrifice, I wonder if it is a) worthy of it, and b) so demoralized/beaten down/sidelined that such a sacrifice would not be helpful.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 4 2015 21:25 utc | 16
@15. Here's a link from Brookings in 2013 when Tsipras spoke.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/25-tsipras-washington-antholis-lombardi
Ok, that explains why US made sure IMF report on Greek unsustainable debt was released. It's about Soros' pathological anti-Russian bent.
By the way, have you seen this ekathimerini article citing WL release that mentions a plot to assassinate former Greek premiere for seeking greater ties with Russia?
http://www.ekathimerini.com/198428/article/ekathimerini/news/magistrate-lifts-lid-on-karamanlis-wiretaps
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 21:28 utc | 17
@yellowsnapdragon,
The main plot here is not only Russia, but the destruction of all Europe's economy to make it easier for the TIPP and pollute the continent with printed dollars when the Euro gone. Tsipras and Varoufakis are just Wall Street useful scubags tools (fake oposition, no wonder how the Comunist party of Greece dislike them http://intsse.com/wswspdf/en/articles/2015/01/27/pers-j27.pdf).
Engdahl.
http://journal-neo.org/2015/07/03/what-stinks-about-varoufakis-and-the-whole-greek-mess/
Indeed, when Greek Prime Minister Tsipras was in St. Petersburg in mid-June to meet with Russian President Putin, Putin extended a very generous offer of prepayment of $5 billion towards the Greek participation in the Turkish Stream Gazprom pipeline.
''That would have given Greece breathing room to service debt repayments to the IMF. Brussels and Washington of course were not at all happy with that. Putin then offered Greece membership in the new BRICS development bank which would allow Greece to borrow to get out of the worst of the crisis without more savage austerity.
That of course would bring Greece closer to Russia and also to China, something Washington and Brussels oppose with all their might. But rather than accept, Greece and Varoufakis walked away from a solution that would have avoided catastrophe as it is now unfolding.''
That's is how Putin unmasked these guys.
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 21:44 utc | 18
Will Greece commit suicide?
The countdown to Sunday's Greek gobbledygook question Referendum that few understand is resulting in ever increasing intensity of propaganda that flows from the game playing marxist Syria government that long since left reality behind as the lies of what the crisis is all about keep compounding so as to convince an increasingly delusional Greek electorate that they are the victims of an evil Troika when the truth is the exact opposite. Firstly, the Greek crisis is NOT about debt! For if it were then Greece would have gone bankrupt 5 years ago!
Greece's debt is irrelevant because everyone knows that it will never be REPAID. ALL understand this, the IMF, EU, ECB, AND Syriza, but it does not suit Syriza's marxist agenda for Greece and therefore they continue to bang the drum of Greece suffering under an unbearable debt mountain that it is being forced to service when the truth for the duration of the past 5 years is that Greece has been a NET recipient of billions of euros per year from the Troika, i.e. that not only does this mean that Greece has not made a single debt or interest payment in ANY of the past 5 years, but also that the Troika has been financing Greek government spending to the tune of tens of billions per year and it is THIS which is the real issue that the Troika wants addressed i.e. for Greece to stop spending other peoples money and learn to live within its means.
An IMF report as much as states the same that Greece will need a 20 year grace period before debt repayments AND be in receipt of Euro 50 billion for spending over the next 3 years which translates into debt that will never be repaid until inflation has wiped its value away and that the Euro-zone will subsidise Greece to the tune of as much as Euro 100 billion over the next 3 years.
So the crisis is NOT about DEBT which Greece is NOT servicing but rather the DEFICIT which Syriza Greece expects the euro-zone to finance in perpetuity. Many if not most of the people of Greece are failing to understand this point that Greece is BEING SUBSIDISED by the rest of the Euro-zone rather than the mass delusion that the Greeks have convinced themselves of being victims of the euro-zone when instead the truth is that Greece has been a net recipient of tens of billions of Euros per year.
As things stand most Greek people appear to have swallowed Syriza propaganda and thus are in a delusional state of 'we are the victims'. Greece is in the grips of mass delusion, madness that could yet result in Greece effectively committing suicide on Sunday.
As game playing Syriza fools push Greece over the cliff and into the abyss, in the not too distant future many books will be written by academics of Greece, a text book example of what happens when a western nation goes MAD! Which needs serious study for if it can happen in Greece then so it can happen anywhere for we all have the same BRAINS! Susceptible to delusional constructs where another current example is the mass delusion of tens of thousands of muslims going off to the Islamic State Utopia when the reality is one of hell on earth!
The other alternative is that Syriza instead of being fools have actually been working towards this outcome i.e. for Greece to leave the euro-zone so that they could then go on and create their marxist Utopia without euro-zone controls so as to curtail member state insane policies. After all what the opinion polls have clearly stated is that approx 70% of the Greek population fearing hyper-inflation do not want to leave the comforts of a stable currency. Hence an engineered crisis culminating in an referendum question that is designed to confuse the electorate into voting for a GREXIT.
The bottom line is that Syriza is lying to the Greek public about having been making debt repayments for the past 5 years when in reality Greece has been on the receiving end of Euro 360 billion! AND that the euro-zone is LIEING to euro-zone tax payers because Greece will NEVER repay the Euro 360 billion. So whilst Greece is banging the drum of their democratic rights, what about the democratic rights of the other euro-zone tax payers, for no one asked them if they should each contribute to the Greek relatively laid back lifestyle in perpetuity because Greece is not experiencing the inflation that accompanies large deficit spending i.e. the UK prints debt and money to finance its deficit which causes inflation. And the UK debt is NEVER repaid because its value is being INFLATED away.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article51322.html
Adious Greece.! Welcome to third world along with Ukraine!
Posted by: Wulf | Jul 4 2015 22:09 utc | 19
@18 Yes, the Turk Stream and BRICS Bank offers were intended as a way for Greece to shift its alliance away fromeEU/IMF. Again, that explains again why the US got the IMF report released and is encouraging EU to back off on the hard line in negotiations. Greece in the Eurasian Union would be a disaster for the US.
But Greek public opinion matters here too. Greeks seem to want to stay in the EU and stay with the Euro, sans austerity. What I see happening is Tsipras actually representing the genuine will of the people by continuing to negotiate with the Troika for a liveable deal rather than break the public trust by unilaterally taking Russian or Chinese money, even if doing so would improve Greece's economy. It's doubtful that Russia or BRICS would rescind their offers before a deal with the Troika is signed. Seems to me that Eurasia is a Plan B for Greece, not completely out of the question, but not first choice either.
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 4 2015 22:10 utc | 20
b:
By reacting/'paper over' I think you might be referring to Yanis' mention of a deal that the claimed he had "in the building". He'll certainly have some explaining to do after the election. Obviously both he and Tspiras have been trying to reassure the Greek people.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 4 2015 22:23 utc | 21
Nice try Rooski, this $5 billion loan if accepted would have been quickly syphoned out of Greece to service the European's loans and Greece would see no income from the pipeline for ten years.
The BRICS Bank doesn't even exist yet and requires members to deposit $10 billion to join although there was talk of deferring Greece's contribution. Even if it becomes a reality next year it will only have $50 billion to loan for all countries that may need help. Whatever aid they may be able to offer Greece it will have little affect on Greece's $340 billion debt although it may be able to help after default and discharge of most of this onerous debt.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 4 2015 22:25 utc | 22
Wow. This post attracts the trolls like flies, doesn't it? I guess it's the word 'Greece' in the title?
That first link is a rhetorical masterpiece! The only little quibble I have with it is that the author's stance is that this is some horrible aberration ... when in fact the system is working perfectly, as designed.
More proof as Professor Engdahl is right:
The Greek Bluff In All Its Glory: Presenting The Grexit "Falling Dominoes"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-04/greek-bluff-all-its-glory-presenting-grexit-falling-dominoes
Posted by: Russian boy | Jul 4 2015 23:15 utc | 24
Nikos Dimou the great Greek writer gave a very interesting interview recently for the New York Times:
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
200 years later the European powers tried again to integrate Greece in the EU not because it made sense, but because of their ideological dreams and misconception of history (when the question of Greece came up , Valéry Giscard d'Estaing famously said “you can’t have Plato play in second division” with blatant disregard for the statistics and cooked books of Greece.) That is how Greece was let in.
Greece enjoyed this immense privilege by borrowing cheaply and spending, not because it deserved it but because European Countries have never come to terms with thousand years of Christianity, horrible inquisition and dark ages. They need Greece so they can continue to live in denial, by cherry picking their past and inflating their ego. Modern Greece is a Balkan country, no different than Albania, Serbia and Macedonia, get it over, it ain’t no classic Greece anymore, it never was.
Look at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province by that time, so when modern Greeks claim to be the exclusive descendants of Plato and the world owes them evth , it must be taken with a grain of salt...Maybe Albanians should start a lawsuit against Germany too for having founded modern Greece to their detriment, it is Balkans after all :-)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
Posted by: Wulf | Jul 4 2015 23:23 utc | 25
IMO, Tsipras WILL be booted out. No matter what Greece decides.
If Greece votes Yes that means more austerity.
If Greece votes No then they will exit the Eurozone and go back to the drachme, it will devalue by say 30, 40, 50 or 60%. That will push inflation much higher.
Both outcomes won't go down too well with the graakes and will (severely) undermine Tsipras' position.
Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 4 2015 23:41 utc | 26
Oooops. Change the word "graakes" with "greeks" in my previous post.
Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 4 2015 23:42 utc | 27
"Both outcomes won't go down too well with the gr[ee]ks and will (severely) undermine Tsipras' position."
Let's face it…there is no 'good' outcome.
If they choose more austerity a generation is doomed for sure. Leaving the Eurozone (which is likely doomed to fail on it's own regardless) at least offers some hope.
Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 4 2015 23:52 utc | 28
I would like to thank b for setting up two posts on this important subject. And also to thank Jackrabbit, and Guest77 in the previous post, for stating the case for Greece and for the Greek government's approach to the crisis in terms I can understand and support.
I paint icons. I know many are not believers, and that's fine - but in that Varoufakis interview, over his shoulder on the shelf was an icon of Christ among the books. He is a believer; he would not prevaricate in front of that icon.
I wish all Greeks a peaceful and historic Sunday, July 5. The world is watching.
Posted by: juliania | Jul 5 2015 0:00 utc | 29
Varoufakis is for real. He understands that the current global financial system is undemocratic and works to enrich a corrupt few at the expense of the population. He understands that the misery suffered by most Greeks is due to untold power and greed of the EU/ECB/IMF and that these institutions intend to grab everything of value in the Greek country; utilities, public lands and anything else of value.
We are at a crossroads. Somebody has to stand up to the internationalist bankers and corporate owners otherwise most human will be slaves living in intolerable conditions.
The people running things will not stop robbing and killing of their own volition. They never have enough.
Bravo Greece citizens. Be strong. Think of Iceland.
Posted by: linda amick | Jul 5 2015 1:30 utc | 30
Syriza has capitulated. The referendum is just another element of that.
What's the point of the referendum? A Yes vote is a vote for nothing, for a deal that is off the table. And a No vote, far from effecting some kind of rejection of debt and austerity, is just going to be used, as Tsipras tells us, to go back to the negotiating table and beg the banksters to accept the capitulation on nine-tenths of the Syriza program he has already made, rather than the twelve-tenths they’re insisting on. Any result of this referendum, in other words, is going to be used, by Syriza or some other party, as an excuse for accepting compliance with the neo-liberal austerity agenda.
Merkel & Co. are appropriating the strong political stance Syriza should be taking. By insisting, “This referendum means in or out of the euro,” they are pre-empting Syriza’s bluff, and signaling their contempt of Syriza’s weakness: Go ahead, have another of your “democratic” exercises. We know you don’t have the stomach to make it mean anything. Here’s how you’d do it if you did. We know that you’ll come crawling back to us.
See analysis at Syriza's Last Charade
Posted by: The Polemicist | Jul 5 2015 2:07 utc | 31
Polemicist @31
Syriza didn't need a referendum to capitulate. In fact the Troika/EU-elite were aghast that Tsipras called a referendum. Juncker said he felt betrayed.
The referendum has developed into something more than an answer to the question asked. It is now, essentially, a vote of confidence in Syriza.
It 'NO' = GRexit only if the Troika has explicitly decided that it would force a GRexit if their terms are not accepted. Those who are saying that 'NO'=GRexit don't have the authority to make that decision and several EU establishment figures have said that a 'NO' vote would NOT mean GRexit. Even Schauble has backed away from that scaremongering rhetoric.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 5 2015 3:57 utc | 32
Re-phrasing:
Syriza didn't need to call a referendum if they were going to capitulate. And the Troika/EU-elite were surprised and shocked that Tsipras called one. Juncker even said that he felt betrayed.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 5 2015 4:01 utc | 33
If the Greek people vote "No" there will be no question of begging from this point on. Syriza will have the mandate of the Greek people, and the moral authority to challenge the EU to live up to its own rules and avowed ideals. The chiding of the EU "institutions" and its apologists has turned out to be quite hollow, and hypocritical, because they have known for years that the debt burden heaped upon Greece is odious and unsustainable. I hope we will hear a resounding NO from this referendum.
No, Syriza didn't need a referendum to capitulate. They've been doing that for six months.eThey've surrendered on almost every element of the program they ran on, and only balked at a couple of points on pensions and taxes that would have been too insulting to sell to their own party as any kind of "honorable compromise." Of course, the Greeks should vote NO. But that will mean something only if it is used to reframe their stance in the original terms they promised -- which at this point does mean a definitive break with the Eurozone. I do not think Tsipras and Varoufakis have any intention of that. They will take the NO as a vindication of their negotiating strategy and use it to get their nine-tenths surrender accepted, and sell that to the people as "victory."
Posted by: The Polemicist | Jul 5 2015 5:42 utc | 35
Posted by: Copeland | Jul 5, 2015 12:09:06 AM | 34
A bailout of German and French banks has been framed as a national issue - European governments hold most of Greek debt - there was a huge media campaign in Germany not to pay for lazy Greeks. This campaign has been stopped now and replaced with humanitarion, personal stories when they realized they will not get rid of Syriza and there will be no Grexit.
The bargaining chip Syriza has is default. Berlin seems to plan for a "default within the Euro" now. Which presumably is code for designing the tools for other cases.
Greece might get a unity government together after the referendum. Syriza's power in it would be quite important.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 5:45 utc | 36
@somebody,
Well how about a referendum in the EU countries if their taxpayers money should be used for Greek pensioners going into pension at the age of 54. And also about should a country that used Goldman Sachs to cheat with its numbers in order to join the EU stay in it. Also if Greece should receive billions in aid while other countries are trimming their budgets.
Mr. Tsipras speaks about Democracy and Dignity, how about some respect and dignity to all those EU countries that contribute tens of Billions for saving Greece. How about a sustainable tax system.
The current government is not some responsible thoughtful assembly. They rather are hard core Marxist indoctrinated that believe they deserve everything and don't have to give nothing in return.
If the Greek feel they are becoming slaves, that the EU is terrorizing them, then please , the door is open and they may leave at will.
Good bye and not Aufwiedersehen.
Posted by: Nick | Jul 5 2015 5:59 utc | 37
Actually Varoufakis is not bluffing there seems to be a plan he can sign the dotted line on - in German. It rhymes with Schäuble's "temporary exit" from the Euro.
Brief translation: As the remaining of Greece in the Eurozone would set wrong incentives for the stability within the Eurozone, and as the Greek government refuses to leave the Eurozone and a forced exit would be politically dangerous, the exit has to be bought ... A great part of Greek debt would have to be cut and a "new start" programme would have to be set up.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 6:04 utc | 38
The Greeks borrowed too much, and the Germans and French lent too much. Germany and Greece now have caricatures of one another that are pretty accurate. Greece has a very inefficient government (especially when it comes to tax) as well as a bloated pension system. The Germans proposed an ideological experiment called "austerity" that flies in the face of empirical economics. Plans like that never work, and this one didn't either.
Greeks overspent themselves into a very precarious debt position, which was fatally destabilized by the 2008 financial crisis. Germany then turned the financial crisis into a depression for the Greeks, as well as widespread and unnecessary economic damage across the eurozone.
Both sides are right, which is why "Europe" is looking pretty foul these days. Both sides made mistakes, and now they are resolutely blaming each other. No one is taking responsibility, and they plug their ears and hum neener, neener, neener when anyone else speaks.
Posted by: Vincent | Jul 5 2015 6:06 utc | 39
russian boy.. i don't share your conclusions and think it is a much more complicated game being played here then what you've tried to outlined... you have some good bits of info, but don't have a read on the overall picture that remains flexible.. that is how i read your commentary.. thanks for sharing regardless..
i do think this is a financial war going on, with the very real possibility of an actual war as a consequence.. europe is being pulled apart.. the euro goes with it.. russia, greece and on and on.. the mandarins of wall st. are quite content to watch it come apart.. just how it plays out is too early to tell.. neither do tsipras or varoufakis see everything.. putin maybe more, but not all either.. it is going to have to play out over the course of time and no one knows just how it will play out.. the stakes are high. generally the banks always win and the small people lose.. 2008 in the usa - that is how wall st. treats little people.. obviously i would be voting no in this referendum..
Posted by: james | Jul 5 2015 7:16 utc | 40
Germans vs Greeks is eyewash. It's banksters versus citizens everywhere. Money is the endpoint of fungibility: euros by the carpetbagfull. The difference between the German banksters and the Greek banksters was the 'creditor/debtor' side of the public transaction : they and all the other globalized banksters were all on the take side, the rape side of Europa, in this case. And that was no accident : they wrote the rules.
The banksters all made 'a killing' on this particular decades-long scam. The 'immorality' is the amorality of gangster capital : the nihilist banksters. IBGYBG. Devastation and destruction of the economy comes as naturally from their nihilist frame of reference as does devastation and destruction of the ecology : let's just burn down the house. IBGYBG.
We German people, we Greek people ... see ...
German workers faring worst from the Euro
Posted by: somebody | Jul 4, 2015 8:05:12 AM | 111
... for the German side. Of course it's not just us Germans and Greeks, it's the EU and Oceania - all of Neolibraconia - as well as their traditional, 'peripheral' and outright-colonial prey. We Germans, we Greeks, and all we others all are the patsies of the international bankster class and must all just say No! to our continued exploitation.
Workers - non-banksters - of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but the banksters' thanes. IBHYBH ... TBG!
Posted by: jfl | Jul 5, 2015 3:26:26 AM | 41
The banksters are only the flies feeding from the carcass. It is good old class warfare. The Euro was set up in a way that put countries in competition for the lowest labour costs and end Social Democrat and Union bargaining power.
Were it not for demography, unemployment in Germany would be sky high. German and US firms have been outsourcing from Slovakia to Bulgaria (and all over the world)
There is a video going round - in German - of Gregor Gysi's speech in the German parliament in 1998 where he basically predicted what would happen if a common currency is used to unite Europe without common labour laws and social standards. Gysi is no phrophet - it was obvious. When the Euro was introduced, probably the majority of Germans were against - they were not asked. There is still a slight majority who thinks the Euro was a mistake.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 8:45 utc | 42
Here's the referendum question:
"Must the agreement plan submitted by the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund to the Eurogroup of 25 June, 2015, and comprised of two parts which make up their joint proposal, be accepted?"
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 5 2015 10:51 utc | 43
7
"Finally…we shall see the entire people transformed into petitioners. Landed property, agriculture, industry, commerce, shipping, industrial companies, all will bestir themselves to claim favors from the State. The public treasury will be literally pillaged. Everyone will have good reasons to prove that legal fraternity should be interpreted in this sense: "Let me have the benefits, and let others pay the costs." Everyone's effort will be directed toward snatching a scrap of fraternal privilege from the legislature. The suffering classes, although having the greatest claim, will not always have the greatest success."
Frederic Bastiat
Tax dodgers created the fantastic deficit, just like the USAryan Elites have done.
Marxist polemics only serves to mask the gribbles in the wurmwood, the real agents.
Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 5 2015 11:39 utc | 44
France is not going to make it.
French economy minister: Greece and creditors must get to work, can't count on ECB aloneEmmanuel Macron, the French economy minister, warned that Greece and its international creditors must work on a compromise to get the country out of its debt crisis, and not count only on support from the European Central Bank.
Speaking at an economics conference in Aix-en-Provence in southern France, where ECB policymaker Benoît Cœuré vowed that the ECB would take more action if necessary, Macron said:
Whatever the vote, we must start tomorrow to respond with political discussions to create a framework.
It’s not about taking refuge behind the ECB and others that have already done more than enough.
Ah, Sirtaki.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 11:47 utc | 45
I saw that post on interfluidity. Steve is sometimes impenetrable or obscure, this piece was clear. If you read the comments you will see someone brings up that two major Greek banks, owned by European banks (Crédit Agricole for ex. who have tried to sell me Greek Bonds..), would have failed, wiping the depositors out, which would have been, at that point, a hugely de-stabilizing event. And the Troika, EU, Banks, etc. were set on extend-n-pretend, not rocking the (their!) boat, etc.
Closing the cash-line on Greece as b points out is vile, despicable. Merkel / the Troika should have had the decency to say ‘no change before the referendum result’ and imho they could have made that stick.
This is punishment before the fact (not blackmail, ordinary coercion, a mix of carrots and sticks, or threats, conditions with consequences, etc..) - it is the equivalent to saying to a child, stay-at-home spouse:
I am witholding your pocket money for the foreseeable future because you *might* decide to go to Maria’s party!
Crazy-making for sure.
russian boy at 10 raises questions: who exactly is responsible for the capital controls (very relative I am sure) and limit to ATM cash withdrawals - see also the problem of withdrawing pensions and the like outside of personal bank accounts, not to mention that as soon as the banking systems shows cracks businesses get mired in immobility? How did this come about?
‘A fact of life’, a Krisis.
According to the MSM the orders came from the Gvmt and the banks obeyed.. a bit late in the day of course (under a certain pov, see jack rabbit 16) and contibuting to a YES vote (disturbance by Syriza etc. leads to no money at ATMs, say)…
Ok in times of panic and uncertainty weirdness ensues .. Sigh.
Very hot here. Cheers. Chilled white. Ice cubes for the American ‘partners.’ Clink clink. ;)
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 5 2015 12:06 utc | 46
34
The synthetic collateral debt obligation roll up of all the US bank-broksters over-leveraged credit-debt onto the USAryan public treasury by a private Fed bank agency 'bailout' was both illegal and odious.
That's the meaning of 'odious'.
But the EU bank loans to the Greek Mil.Gov State were not. Instead, it was the Greek State and Goldman, an old story, that commited the illegal and fraudulent acts, and they must pay with interest, penalties and fines.
Nothing 'odious' about that.
Conflating every bank:public schism as 'odious' is just more Marxist drivel. If you don't pay down your credit card, you have to pay 34% interest, along with the other 1/3rd of credit deadbeats. Nobody held a gun to your head at the yacht dealership.
Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 5 2015 12:17 utc | 47
James Petras on Syrizia
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/30341-james-petras-syriza-s-lying-and-deception-must-stop
and second one for politically illiterate, this is what I've always know "We are Sparta":
From the very beginning, Syriza gave into the Troika’s dictates, even as they play-acted their ‘principled resistance’. First they lied to the Greek public, calling the Troika ‘international partners’. Then they lied again calling the Troika memorandum for greater austerity a ‘negotiating document’. Syriza’s deceptions were meant to hide their continuation of the highly unpopular ‘framework’ imposed by the previous discredited hard rightwing regime.As Syriza plundered the country of resources to pay the bankers, it escalated its international groveling. Its Defense Minister offered new military bases for NATO, including an air-maritime base on the Greek island of Karpathos. Syriza escalated Greece’s political and military support for EU and US military intervention and support of “moderate” terrorists in the Middle East, ludicrously in the name of “protecting Christians”. Syriza, currying favor with European and US Zionists, strengthened its ties with Israel, evoking a ‘strategic alliance’ with the terrorist-apartheid state. From his first days in office, the hard right Defense Minister Kammenos proposed the creation of a “common defense space” including Cyprus and Israel – thus supporting Israel’s air and sea blockade of Gaza.
Syriza’s political decision to ‘embed’ in the EU and the Eurozone, at all costs, signals that Greece will continue to be vassal state, betraying its program and adopting deeply reactionary policies, even while trumpeting its phony leftist rhetoric, and feigning ‘resistance’ to the Troika. Despite the fact that Syriza plundered domestic pensions and local treasuries, many deluded Leftists in Europe and the US continue to accept and rationalize what they choose to dub its “realistic and pragmatic compromises”.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 5 2015 12:56 utc | 48
Just consider what is being asked on the referendum.
"Should the proposed agreement be accepted, which was submitted by the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund in the Eurogroup of 25.06.2015 and consists of two parts, which constitute their unified proposal?
"The first document is entitled 'Reforms for the Completion of the Current Program and Beyond' and the second 'Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis'."
Beside the question are two boxes: "Not approved/No; Approved/Yes".
According BBC, "The language is quite technical, and many Greeks may struggle to understand it:"
Indeed, but is that "language" by accident? It stinks very Washingtonian that is coming from those who cooked news for ISIS and "terrorist threat". Manipulative and deceptive. Anyway, anybody have seen those “documents” and what' in it?
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 5 2015 13:19 utc | 49
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 5, 2015 9:19:34 AM | 49
It is a political question and very easy to understand: Trust either the "Troika" or the Syriza government.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 13:34 utc | 50
I’m very afraid of what is gingerly called ‘social unrest.’ Imho there has been some but not reported in the MSM. (1)
Some opinions put forward detail that the YES_NO Greek referendum vote is dividing ppl into two camps, that this is a major dividing line. Maybe, but there are other schisms and frustrations. Still ppl will wait for some kind for resolution next week or so, but after that if it is not accepted / satisfactory…a blow-up and extreme violence would serve the PTB. I hope my fears are unfounded.
1. Demos that are reported in the West MSM are selectively chosen, heh not flash news. For ex., Moscow and other cities in Russia saw *massive* and long running anti-central Gov and anti-Putin demos, hardly or only shoddily reported on, in an Anti-Rus mode.
Protests were about health-care reform, new rules, new controls (very like in France, CH, Italy, concentration, closing small clinics, instoring more tech / qualification controls, which provokes strikes and demos endlessly..) In Russia, a switcheroo: part of the reform is returning for a large part health care to the regions, all quite complicated. These ‘reform’ moves have gone on all around the world, most ppl agree with them, so no real report. Having French, GB nurses and docs (valiant ppl who care for others!) sympathising with their Russian couterparts….hmm. Ok I went wildly OT, but the point is the lying MSM...
some links anti-Russian garbled confused on health care reform Russia
bbc http://tinyurl.com/pxarm67
bloomberg http://tinyurl.com/qdc328y
moscow times http://tinyurl.com/ohcolp6
wa po http://tinyurl.com/pyj4kr6
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 5 2015 14:02 utc | 51
@42
I used the banksters to stand for the class of rentiers, those who control the flow of resources, natural and un-, then reap what others sow. Sure they're a class ... but that's so 20th century. Words like 'capitalism, 'socialism', 'class' ... all have so much baggage attached that I can't carry them very far, I'm old - not really, but I feel old, especially dragging those words and worlds behind me. Canning the last century's labels lightens the load. The effect on reality is nil : it's "all in one's mind" after all. The world remains the same no matter what particular perch we view it from. Little 'd' democracy, that does it for me. If the people who actually compose a society were actually to gain control of that society ... that would be 'socialism', wouldn't it. You won;t hear me saying that, but for the folks who treasure explicit continuity along the trail itself, there it is. Captures and embodies the essence and provides the leverage all at the same time.
We don't need to eliminate any people, just the games we play. The impossible, fake perspectives we affect. IBGYBG. Change the rules <= seize power. We all know it can be done and we all know how to do it ... Neolibraconia has levers and switches we haven't flipped or pulled in 100 years in the USA. It's just too 'hard', too dull, and so-o bo-oring. And isn't it kind of beneath us to actually do it ourselves? It requires meeting and working with people we don't know and "can't" identify with ... don't recognize as part of the same target market demographic as our own hip selves. We're all consumers and rank ourselves along your etymologic 'smart' axis of consumption. It's no accident that tuberculosis, that long drawn out crawl to the grave, was/is also named consumption. We're all climbing the Magic Mountain.
An interesting film trying to explore such an 'adventure' : Grand Canyon (1991). No masterpiece, but about as good as it gets in Hollywood these days. Well, late last century.
It's really a case of just coming to grips with the actuality : no one in power is on our side, we have to do it all ourselves, so let's start now. One foot after the other. It'll take as long as it takes. Commit to it. Nothing else is worth commitment that I can see. If we Americans had begun after George, Ted, and the Supremes stole the election in 2000 we'd have made real progress by now. But we didn't. Don't cry. Start now, start late, we just have to start. Once we get going it will be so much fun we'll wonder why on earth it took us so long. Inertia. Simple as that.
thanx b for the Interfluidity piece. that's one of the best things i've read lately.
Posted by: john | Jul 5 2015 15:01 utc | 53
jfl @52
I don't see the problem as capitalism but as the crony-capitalism propelled/inspired by the ideology of neoliberalism, plus corporate control of main stream media.
Oligarchs and the plutocrats that serve them are a danger to us all. Those who have studied oligarchs have shown that their only interest is in maintaining if not growing their power. Their agenda is toxic to our physical and social environment. They have dismantled progressive taxation and lowered the standard of living of a middle class that is the biggest threat to their accumulation of power.
Countries that have been destroyed by Oligarchy are the butt of jokes (Greece, Ukraine, etc.) - yet most countries in the West are moving down the same path. And Obamatrade it will only get worse.
Saddly, the propaganda-infused siren song of the establishment means that people don't react strongly until disaster is upon them. This can plainly be seen in the slow/tepid support for Syriza from the left. Many too easily accepted the Troika-friendly media depiction of Syriza as incompetent and doomed.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 5 2015 15:02 utc | 54
If the government (as I expect is the case) has also been conducting secret exit polls, it might explain Varoufakis’ remarks.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/05/greeces-eurozone-future-in-the-balance-as-referendum-gets-under-way--eu-euro-bailout-live
Posted by: ALAN | Jul 5 2015 15:55 utc | 55
@54
Speaking of the 'propaganda-infused siren song of the establishment' and of tales of brave Ulysses and how his naked ears were tortured ... Greek referendum: millions vote as markets prepare for turbulence – live, 4:27 pm Helena Smith
I have just conducted a two-hour straw poll asking 12 people, across all age groups, if they had voted today and, if so, which way they had gone? A lot were returning from polls stations in the vicinity of central Athens.Of the 12 , ten said they had voted OXI (No). The two who voted yes owned shops in the district of Plaka beneath the ancient Acropolis.
Now I don't know how this is going to come out but I think it's going to be a landslide for No!. The newest 'trick' in the MSM in the states is to declare slam-dunk elections to be 'too close to call' and then try to slip the fix in. No one'll be surprised 'cause the MSM told them it was too close to call. I'm quite sure that is not going to work in Greece. And I think that the total for No! will find the MSM 'shocked' ... how could we have been so wrong? The voters tricked us ... or some such nonsense.
A landslide is what's needed. I hope it's the result in Greece.
Obamatrade is an excellent point at which to draw the line, to break the trance, to snap people out of it ... secret treaties? come on! ... I am sure that once a sizable portion of ourselves actually makes the commitment, that a change has gotta come.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-05/greece-s-divided-voters-decide-on-future-path-as-euro-exit-looms
Greek pollsters are forecasting a narrow win for the “no” side, endorsed by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, in a referendum that risks pushing the country toward an exit from the euro zone.
Four informal surveys published as voting finished estimated the lead for “no” at about three percentage points. Polls closed at 7 p.m. local time on Sunday and the first official projections are due around 9 p.m.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 5 2015 16:39 utc | 57
Thanks neretva'43 for the James Petras article and to b. The knives are out for Varoufakis (Petras, Engdahl, Madsen) and to a lesser extent Tsipras. I have always been suspicious about the latter's friendhip with Gianna Angelopoulis, wife of shipping and steel magnate Giorgos Angelopoulis. She is very close to the Clintons and by proxy to Soros and is rumoured to have helped organize Tsipras' trip to the U.S. in 2012. She is also alleged by two newspapers, Kathimerini and Dimokratia, to have funded Syriza's election campiagn through the US company Teneo, headed by lifetime Clinton man Bud Douglas, who is currently head of the Clinton Global Initiative foundation. We also know that Varoufakis has links to Soros.
The strategy appears be that whatever happens via Grexit or not, Tsipras and Varoufakis are there to make sure Greece remains within the US axis. Maybe Greece is bankrupt economically, but geopolitically it has huge strategic value. What is very strange is that after sounding out Russia for possible help, Greece offered the island Karpathos to the US as a military base, as commented above. Was the Russian ploy just a bluff to mask what is really going on?
Posted by: Lochearn | Jul 5 2015 17:08 utc | 58
The Greek politics of Karpathos
According to the same sources, the US have asked the government to facilitate the establishment of an additional base for drones and other services. The Americans seem to believe that Castelli on Crete is a suitable place, in particular where the new airport is planned. But the Greek military and diplomats are not in the mood for such a discussion, and it is therefore put on hold for the time being: the government priorities are different right now.Kamenos’ official proposal is that the base be located on the Aegean island of Karpathos. According to a diplomatic source, the reason is that the island is considered demilitarized. If the US establish a base there, this will give a new direction to the debate about the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, which, as we know, Greece does not accept.
Turkish claims regarding the demilitarization of islands in the Aegean Sea
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2015 17:31 utc | 59
L@58
Alleged connections and rumor make for good pulp buy actual alliances need evidence or actions to be verified.
The wet-dream some wishful thinkers have of Greece rejecting its European relatives and joining the Russian/Chinese block, in any other way than normal trade and cultural exchange will certainly lead to disappointment and more attacks from the naïve new, New World Order, projectionists.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 5 2015 17:34 utc | 60
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33403665
Greeks vote 'No' - early results
With 10% of votes counted, results from Greek referendum on bailout suggest "No" victory
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 5 2015 17:36 utc | 61
@60
Rejecting European relatives? Russia is not a European nation? I for one would be a lot more comfortable with Russia calling the shots in Europe rather than Germany ... we've seen that movie before and they've - the German 'leaders' have - just given us a vision of deja vu all over again. I wouldn't be surprised if this crack in the iron mask of German Europe doesn't let a lot of light in, and Russia will be a big part of that light.
China? They bought a prime chunk of Piraeus and were looking for more. With friends like that the Greeks don't need enemies. he Chinese are smooth and the biggest boys in the room so I'm sure they'll 'adapt' to facts on the ground, although Xinhua is still selling the 'too close to call' (the fix is in) line.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-france-germany-greece-idUSKCN0PF0PP20150705?mod=related&channelName=ousivMolt
Merkel to meet Hollande in Paris on Monday for talks on Greece
German Chancellor Angela Merkel will travel to Paris on Monday afternoon to discuss the result of the Greek referendum with French President Francois Hollande, a German government spokesman said on Sunday.
"The talks with the French president from 630 p.m. (1230 EDT), and over dinner will be about a common assessment of the situation after the Greek referendum and the continuation of the close German-French cooperation on this subject," said Merkel spokesman Steffen Seibert in a statement.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 5 2015 18:01 utc | 63
Greek referendum: no vote ahead in early results - live updates, 6.53pm Helena Smith
Asked why he believed the government could cut a deal with creditors so soon – when for the past five months talks have been deadlocked – Tsakalotos told STAR TV:The first thing is that the IMF report [released last week] proves that the debt [load] is not viable and secondly that there is a new popular mandate as it would seem from the apparent result of the referendum.
One thing to take away here, for the Germans, is how neatly the US - IMF - stabbed them in the back once they'd read the handwriting on the wall. Playing good cop to the German bad cop not just to the Greeks, but to the world. Kind of complements their leveling human rights abuse claims at other nations while pouring on the Hellfire and funding/arming ISIS and refueling the Saudi terrorists in Yemen. And - oh yeah - they're still tapping your phone calls ... Big Time.
The reason Latin America is in it's current state is because of the IMF austerity nonsense. Education, social services and other investments for the people we're mostly all halted. Central America, the Caribbean, the southern cone we're hammered by the plans the "geniuses" came up with. Massive emigration and breakdown in social order. I'm glad the greeks were given a voice to speak up, this has gone on for far too long. Ya basta.
Posted by: Fernando | Jul 5 2015 18:18 utc | 65
@65
Ya basta. I hope that Cristina Fernández de Kirchner is getting the support she needs to withstand the financial terrorists at work against Argentina. I hope this Greek vote is heard in Argentina and elsewhere in South America.
@64 jfl... last paragraph.. that is how i see it too... same thing is being pushed on russia via ukraine.. more bloody bullshit and deception from the same gang of thugs who never have enough in their pockets...
Posted by: james | Jul 6 2015 0:47 utc | 67
@67
I have no idea what they'll try to do to all of us in order to rob us further, enrich themselves, and punish us for the Greeks' having stood up to them ... But it sure feels better to stand up to them than continue life on our knees. I've pretty heavily identified with the majority of the world's rivers, mountains, plains, people, plants, and other animals at this point.
Thugs is a good name for them ... they're using it as an 'acceptable' alternative to 'nigger' in the US now, but in fact it describes and sticks to them like white on rice.
Figures that the take by the fans of Putin would be against the "hard" left government in Greece. Putin regime is, after all, a deeply conservative, right wing regime. Putin's major approach in Europe is to support the far Right. And eff all of your conspiracy theories - what matters most is what the masses think and how they intervene, when they choose to think and intervene, as they have just done now in Greece - for the second time in six months. But like typical right wingers, you all think, in the old 'Murican saying, that "the masses are asses". That makes you like the typical "'Murican" - a cynical dumbass.
And yes I am proud to be part of that Left that said that Syriza already had a mandate to move on halt to the debt repayments and nationalization of the banks (at a minimum) six months ago. None of this necessitates "Grexit" - there is no process for Eurozone "exit". The subsequent actions of the merciless Troika were intended for one purpose - to reverse this mandate and force Syriza out of government. Because, you know, Syriza is just a Soros-Washington-Bilderburger front at war with - the Troika? Oh, at war with just the EC/ECB, 'cuz the IMF is a Washington Trojan horse? And round and round we go with this rubbish.
"Criticism on the "left" has generally* been that Syriza should've immediately established capital controls and threatened GRexit. But that would've harmed the economy and they had no mandate for GRexit. Syriza would've faced a storm of protest over such moves. The path that they took has smartly advanced Greece's interests. And now - especially after the IMF report on Greece's debt sustainability - Syriza has a realistic chance of a 'NO' vote that would give them the authority to threaten a GRexit and to thereby reach a comprehensive deal (as they initially argued for) that is very favorable to Greece. Or GRexit (if necessary)."
Figures that the same would align with execrable right wing positions of Yves Smith. "Naked Capitalist", indeed. Too bad the Greek people have shouted all this nonsense down with a resounding OXI.
* Yves Smith at nakedcapitalism.com has a quite different view. She believes that Syriza should've capitulated "on day 1" to because the Troika had all the cards and fighting them only puts "what's left of the European Left" at risk. I won't comment on this except for this: IF "what's left of the European Left" needs such a sacrifice, I wonder if it is a) worthy of it, and b) so demoralized/beaten down/sidelined that such a sacrifice would not be helpful.
Posted by: Matt | Jul 6 2015 16:52 utc | 69
Putin doesn't care much about ideologies, and yep he's right wing , so what ? Russia is sure deeply conservative, but one has to be braindead to not notice that's the case with or without Putin, for quite some time, long before you & your parents were born. He couldn't care less what kind of society europeans want for themselves as long as there's mutual respect. Needless to say we're not there with most of European "leaders" if most of these clowns can be called that way ...
Posted by: zingaro | Jul 6 2015 18:46 utc | 70
The comments to this entry are closed.
terrorism is a good word to describe ecb/imf actions.. thanks for the additional links..
Posted by: james | Jul 4 2015 17:54 utc | 1