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July 18, 2015
Open Thread 2015-29
News & views …
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thanks nmb… “Financial Europe marked only a Pyrrhic victory against Greece.” looks pretty solid to me for the time being.. Posted by: james | Jul 18 2015 18:37 utc | 2 is it better to be a colony of the usa, or germany or russia? Posted by: james | Jul 18 2015 18:45 utc | 3 Yes as we feared, Kiev begin the war again Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18 2015 18:57 utc | 4 From 2014 but still scary Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18 2015 19:57 utc | 6 @james, 3: Posted by: Vintage Red | Jul 18 2015 20:49 utc | 7 james, Posted by: juannie | Jul 18 2015 21:24 utc | 8 On the July 16th post about Greece, several comments linked to and recommended the Costas Laparvitsas speech at the Democracy Rising conference sponsered by The Real News Network. I would also recommend that speech, prominently linked at the site. Posted by: juliania | Jul 18 2015 21:27 utc | 9 Illargi: http://www.theautomaticearth.com/2015/07/was-greece-set-up-to-fail/ Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2015 22:52 utc | 11 2 Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 18 2015 22:55 utc | 12 7 Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 18 2015 23:24 utc | 13 @12 Yes indeed. They swarm across the border looking for work. On the other hand who else is going to pick the fruit, gut the chickens and clean the swimming pools? Posted by: dh | Jul 18 2015 23:25 utc | 14 Jessica Baker: (Jessica Screaming) Annie Martin: (Annie Screams) Posted by: Timon Screaming | Jul 19 2015 0:03 utc | 16 Greece’s New Cabinet Sets Sights on Locking in Bailout
So … the 39 have their work cut out for them : return to the people for discussion, advice and instruction. Help organize a referendum on the EU’s diktat and to organize a new party to effect an alternative … we would say the alternative. Posted by: jfl | Jul 19 2015 0:42 utc | 17 @11 – I like that article. If these facts continue to emerge and solidify, that fraudulent testimony and rigged economic statistics drew Greece into a bailout with IMF that actually wasn’t warranted, then I suppose this would take on for the Greeks the scale of a 9/11 kind of treasonous false flag. Posted by: Grieved | Jul 19 2015 1:21 utc | 18 I would postulate that the intelligent Greeks are movings this international kabuki towards Grexit. The key points are being able to nationalize the banks and make them open again with a temporary currency, aligned with a repudiation of the oderous parts of the debt and feints toward prosecuting the bankers selling known slime. Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 19 2015 4:32 utc | 19 the *groan* is discarding all pretense of *impartiality*, Posted by: denk | Jul 19 2015 5:44 utc | 20 Are the fundamentalist Jewish terrorists and the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists teaming up against the Palestinians in Gaza?
israelis:Judaeism::wahabists:Islam Posted by: jfl | Jul 19 2015 6:35 utc | 21 Kerry Q&A with PBS’s Woodruff on the Iran nuclear deal. Posted by: never mind | Jul 19 2015 7:18 utc | 22 Not sure where to put this. Ostensibly a response on the ‘Billmon’ thread to jfl @75, it also touches a lot on the main subject of conversation here:
No, we’re trying to get out the truth (from our perspective) about the fake left collaborators. You would think that would be damned easy with an example like the July 5 referendum and then Syriza’s utter capitulation to economic depravity, but no, the ‘official left’ and you have been way behind on who the class enemies are (I imagine the ‘official left’ just wants to keep us confused, while I’m sure your motives are purer) and what the obvious solution at this point solution is. Posted by: fairleft | Jul 19 2015 7:31 utc | 23 jfl @21: Yeah, maximize focus on the KSA/ISIS/Israeli co-oppression of the Middle East. The war of intolerance and religious hatred against any sort of decent future for the region. Noting that the most important member of team @asshole is the USA. Posted by: fairleft | Jul 19 2015 8:28 utc | 24 9 Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 19 2015 9:04 utc | 25 #25 Posted by: mcohen | Jul 19 2015 10:28 utc | 26 Here is Costas Lapavitsas’ amazing speech on the austerity package and on an exit strategy: Posted by: r@rtalk.com | Jul 19 2015 12:33 utc | 27 How about Trump being swiftboated or Howard Dean’d in the hooplah over his accurate “he’s not a war hero” comment.A full court response from the neolibcons of either party.What a joke.(Trump aint my guy,but he’s been accurate about reality more than the rest of the rethug field and most of the demoncrats. Posted by: dahoit | Jul 19 2015 13:31 utc | 28 Interestingly, Trump has donated more money to Democrats over the years than Republicans. That and he has donated to the Clinton Foundation. Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 19 2015 14:21 utc | 29 Speaking of Trump: Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 19 2015 15:32 utc | 30 I think it is arguable that Trump and Sanders are both Trojan Horses for Hillary, she has so many negatives it is going to take a lot of payoffs to get that nomination. Posted by: mad1 | Jul 19 2015 15:37 utc | 31 Germany’s Destructive Anger Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 19 2015 15:44 utc | 32 Jackrabbit #11 The eu was set up to fail and Greece is first. Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 19 2015 15:56 utc | 33 Vintage Red, here’s my favorites comments from Lords and Vassals Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 19 2015 16:13 utc | 34 @8 juliania.. thanks! ditto and i also really enjoy psychohistorian’s posts.. @7 vintage red offers a very similar article outlining the power structure at work.. Posted by: james | Jul 19 2015 16:32 utc | 35 On ‘Lords and Vassals’ by J Hawk at Fort Russ posted by Vintage Red Posted by: Noirette | Jul 19 2015 16:39 utc | 36 noirette: i always look forward to your comments, smart and lucid. wish you did more than reactive comments. perhaps in another place? Posted by: bolasete | Jul 19 2015 16:56 utc | 37 A helpful analysis that puts the Greek-EU crisis in its context can be seen at: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/germany-greece-wolfgang-schauble-bailout . The title of the article is ” Why is Germany so tough on Greece? Look back 25 years” by Dirk Laabs. Laabs writes, “It was 25 years ago, during the summer of 1990, that Schäuble led the West German delegation negotiating the terms of the unification with formerly communist East Germany. A doctor of law, he was West Germany’s interior minister and one of Chancellor Helmut Kohl’s closest advisers, the go-to guy whenever things got tricky.” Posted by: jrh | Jul 19 2015 16:57 utc | 38 Chipnik says @ 12: Posted by: john | Jul 19 2015 17:31 utc | 39 Bankster to Angie: Get this deal done. This time banks will fall because of contagion. Anyway nobody will budge. Posted by: Noirette | Jul 19 2015 18:07 utc | 40 at some point the $ collapses: deflation/hyperinflation. sooo many thinktankers are funded that plans to utilize different vectors have been gamed. euro group holds together is best; grexit is acceptable. as long as the working class is further crushed the fascists will be pleased. us, leading fascist nation (corporate state; dictatorship of finance capital), needs to squeeze the home front, plunder further (russia makes them drool), destroy value for reconstruction. the future looks bleak. perhaps the loss of the ussr really was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. Posted by: bolasete | Jul 19 2015 18:44 utc | 41 @Noirette : The Ukrainians have certainly tried to build a myth of historical victimhood, with their idiotic attempt to create their own personal holocaust out of the famine that struck so much of the Soviet Union in the 1930s. Of course trying to convert a natural disaster into a genocide 50 years after it occurred (even with the Madison Avenue department of the CIA dusting off and re-writing the old Nazi script) when there is no evidence it was intentional isn’t such an easy task. Even more foolish trying to hang it on “Russians” when the USSR was, at the time, run by a Georgian who was to be followed by a Ukrainian and since there’s no getting around the multi-ethnic nature of the USSR, those who want to rewrite it as a Russian Empire don’t have any historical leg to stand on. Only the most uninformed simpletons or most vicious Nazis will replace, in their memories, the mass graves and pogroms created by the Banderists (captured on film) for some historical subterfuge about a natural disaster that struck over huge areas of the USSR. jfl.. not sure why i thought of you with this article.. Posted by: james | Jul 19 2015 19:35 utc | 43 @43 Posted by: jfl | Jul 19 2015 23:27 utc | 44 @34 Posted by: jfl | Jul 20 2015 0:42 utc | 45 @27 Posted by: jfl | Jul 20 2015 1:43 utc | 46 @44 Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 20 2015 6:32 utc | 47 @47 psychohistorian Posted by: jfl | Jul 20 2015 7:19 utc | 48 28 killed, 100 injured as blast hits Turkey border town near Syria Posted by: jfl | Jul 20 2015 12:37 utc | 49 Terrorist attack in Turkey: Posted by: virgile | Jul 20 2015 13:32 utc | 50 @james #43 Posted by: Jack Smith | Jul 20 2015 14:22 utc | 51 jfl 44 Posted by: denk | Jul 20 2015 15:38 utc | 52 Wonder if this is the famous false flag “of Syrian origin” Turkish authorities were caught planning last year(?). Posted by: Ananymus | Jul 20 2015 16:03 utc | 53 Zakharchenko repulsively commends Right Sector for attacking gays in Kiev (and I think he means this literally, in reference to their attack on a gay pride parade–it’s toward the end of this interview): Posted by: RudyM | Jul 21 2015 3:02 utc | 54 The comments on his site seem more sycophantic than ever, but that’s pretty much the way it goes anywhere. There definitely are a lot of creepy, partly ultra-conservative, religious posters there. Posted by: RudyM | Jul 21 2015 3:05 utc | 55 Fallout from Makachevo continues. The question remains, can Poroshenko get, if not a monopoly on coercion, at least a preponderance of it.
But maybe not. Popular support appears a bit dicey as the Right Sector threats fizzle Pravyi Sektor has rescheduled its big rally to “say no to the government of traitors” for Tuesday th 21st. From translator J. Hawk’s comments.
Meanwhile, a separatist demo in Lvov. Galicia for Galicians!
The Saker (everyone’s favorite Orthodox Slavophile) believes that If Poroshenko Attacks His Days Are Numbered. He’s being set up and manipulated into attacking by Washington.
Novorossiya for its part is well-situated to capitalize, he believes. It has behaved with scrupulous restraint, in order to make it clear that when war resumes, it will be due to Kiev. And it should be able to defeat the initial strike and gain ground with counter-attackes. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 21 2015 6:13 utc | 56 Thoughts on the up-coming negotiation during the Greek intermission Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 21 2015 16:58 utc | 57 RM@56 Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 21 2015 17:50 utc | 58 What are we to make of this recent news? “Israel, Greece sign status of forces agreement” because: Iran. Pffffft. Posted by: wendy davis | Jul 21 2015 18:53 utc | 59 There definitely are a lot of creepy, partly ultra-conservative, religious posters there. Posted by: abc | Jul 21 2015 20:48 utc | 60 Wayout at 58 —
I’ve not seen anything further on this last point yet. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 21 2015 23:51 utc | 61 RM@61 Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 22 2015 2:11 utc | 62 @59 Wendy Davis Posted by: jfl | Jul 22 2015 6:45 utc | 63 Interesting take on the turmoil in (disintegration of?) the EU and The return of the “German question” at the wsws.org. A taste of the French ‘elite’ reaction in Dominiq Strauss-Kahn’s letter To my German friends. Posted by: jfl | Jul 22 2015 9:30 utc | 64 The background looming behind the abyss Germany has pushed Greece into …
Posted by: jfl | Jul 22 2015 10:08 utc | 65 Wayout at 62 — Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 22 2015 11:46 utc | 66 And for you fellow connoisseurs of disorder and instability, from the top shelf at New Cold War, American academic Nikolai Petro traces the development From Maidan to Mukachevo: Evolution of the Ukraine crisis. He discusses, amongst other topics, the forces available to Poroshenko and their limitations.
As someone once sang, “It’s getting better all the time.” Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 22 2015 12:00 utc | 67 There are several points I did not mention in my explanations of Syriza’s utter defeat / craven capitulation / betrayal (My stance being that I don’t agee with that last word.) Posted by: Noirette | Jul 22 2015 13:43 utc | 68 Fort Russ has this analysis from Yurasumy, a Ukrainian blogger whom they rate highly.
Academic Gordon Hahn draws comparisions with Weimar. He presents an extensive account of Pravyi Sektor’s activities around Maidan and subsequently.
Hahn believes Yarosh remains intent on seizing power, seeing the recent party congress and demonstration as test of how much support they have. He sees Yarosh as playing a long game here. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 24 2015 12:03 utc | 69 Syria calls for regional alliance to counter terrorism
Regardless the outcome in the US of actions in response to the Iran ‘sanctions’ deal it looks as though things are beginning to come together in the Syria-Iraq-Iran belt. That can only be a good thing, as far as I can see. I hope that the SCO/BRICS/EEU speak up and encourage SII, at least, to act together to contain terrorist/extremists and to bring peace, and eventually prosperity, back to the region. Posted by: jfl | Jul 24 2015 17:44 utc | 70 @70 Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 24 2015 19:08 utc | 71 Ukrainian blogger Aleksandr Sabiy reports From Mukachevo to Kiev–Right Sector erects checkpoints. He is a nationalist, but not a fascist, and uses the occasion to prod to government to activity. In particular, he notes one on a main thorofare in Kiev.
Sabiy would begin with attempts at a political solution, but “if they fail, returning fire.” Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 25 2015 2:02 utc | 73 @72 Saudi Arabia and Israel will be eager to join I expect. They both hate terrorism and extremism. Posted by: dh | Jul 25 2015 2:15 utc | 74 European Awakening?
The Eurozone now faces the prospect of: Marie LePen’s FRexit; Beppe Grillo’s ITexit; Catalan independence (CATexit?); BRexit (the British vote); along with the continuing possibility of a GRexit. This reinforces my view that it is not enough to have broken free of the Troika’s forced 2-step negotiation. In this comprehensive negotiation, Tspiras MUST get commitments to substantial relief and a detailed implementation plan. Accepting promises, complex conditions, etc. = failure and betrayal. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 25 2015 2:49 utc | 75 @70 Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 26 2015 4:29 utc | 76 @76 Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 26 2015 5:59 utc | 77 Our resident Bhagawan made a solid recommendation over at the Turkey Launches thread.
In their second offering the New York Observer watches as the Ukraine spirals into the economic abyss. Where the FT gives you dreary statistical graphs, the visuals include a very fetching photo of vyshyvanka-clad Radical Party leader Yarosh brandishing his trademark pitchfork (the vyshvyanka is a peasant blouse that is de riguer for Banderists).
I’m given to understand that donning a vyshvyanka really makes this sort of magical thinking much easier. You see not only hidden Russian military formations but the profound wisdom of Bandera, too. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 26 2015 13:33 utc | 78 Greek reporting fiasco continues at Naked Capitalism Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 26 2015 19:12 utc | 79 follow-up @79 Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 26 2015 20:25 utc | 80 Well, its getting surreal. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 27 2015 9:34 utc | 81 The minions at the Naked Capitalist are incensed that the Pinkos of Syriza has made even small gains against the Troika and will not be satisfied until they are chained in a German dungeon. From the day Syriza was elected their goal has been to utterly destroy Syriza and especially Y and T. They are openly displaying Naked Fear of what could happen if this anti-austerity monster spreads to other EU members. Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 27 2015 14:46 utc | 82 Wayoutwest at 82: Considering the site’s history, your comment is likely very far off both about Naked Capitalism’s desires, and in your comment’s obsession with fixing ‘the blame’ for all bad things happening to Greece on Germany. I know the mainstream media is telling you to stare at Merkel, but over here is the IMF, the representative of the huge Western banks and the real force calling the shots. If it were up to Germany and not the IMF, Greece might’ve been allowed to Grexit from its nightmare. Your comment also diverts blame from Syriza, which is actually imposing the new more extreme than every austerity.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 27 2015 17:37 utc | 83 On occasion, the Kyiv Post proves useful.
Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 28 2015 1:43 utc | 84 Noirette at 68 — I forget to mention — Orlov’s pc. was quite provocative, tx. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 28 2015 2:20 utc | 85 As I mentioned @79, despite important flaws in the Troika-friendly MSM narrative that NC has largely regurgitated to their readers, NC has shown no interest in any reflection upon, or reconsideration of, their coverage. This makes it difficult to explain Greek developments to their readers.
Yves then describes debt restructuring as an IMF issue – despite the fact that debt restructuring was a core Greek concern well before the IMF acknowledged the urgent need for restructuring:
This just seems wrong-headed. IMO if anything will blow up the negotiations and lead to GRexit, it is a refusal to provide Greece with substantial restructuring and explicit details regarding implementation. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 28 2015 3:20 utc | 86 rufus @86
= Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 28 2015 4:28 utc | 87 The revelations about Yanis’ contingency planning for a non-bank payment system confirm my understanding of Syriza strategy as described on June 14th at NakedCapitialism.com:
It seems clear that Yanis had expected to keep pushing for a satisfactory agreement until the Troika took harsh measures – especially against Greek banking. Once the Troika had done so, the Greeks would be prepared to counter those measures. At that point, the Troika would be faced with the decision to: 1) accept the status quo: allow the Greeks to flaunt the rules – including (possibly) a debt moratorium; 2) agree to the Greek proposals; or 3) take measures to kick Greece out of the Euro. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 28 2015 5:38 utc | 88 FYI, below is my NC comment of June 7th that got me put into moderation. IMO it is interesting in light of what has happened since, and it shows an alternative, and I think logical, viewpoint that was rejected at NC.
In the weeks prior to this comment, I had written many times about the Troika’s 2-step ‘Catch-22’ process, Greek non-compliance, and Greece’s ‘game of chicken’ with the Troika. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 28 2015 5:59 utc | 89 Jackrabbit at 87.
Betrayal of the masses is not a bug, it’s a feature. Nor is it confined to Greece, of course. Absent a mass movement, Sanders would be no different, in the unlikely event that he comes to power. Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 28 2015 12:04 utc | 90 rufus @90 Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 28 2015 13:25 utc | 91 JR at 91 — Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 29 2015 0:22 utc | 92 Default is still inevitable for Greece; the debt hopelessly exceeds the capacity of the country to repay. And the “Quadriga”, simulating Four Trojan Horses, is a threat to the economic well being of every southern, 2nd tier country in the EU. (And they know who they are!) Copeland at 93 — Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 29 2015 3:46 utc | 94 @94- I don’t think it’s been in vain- may be a time lag involved in terms of accomplishments. Posted by: Nana 2007 | Jul 29 2015 4:33 utc | 95 Copeland @93 and rufus @94 Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 29 2015 4:51 utc | 96 Jackrabbit at 96 — Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 29 2015 11:38 utc | 97 @rufus, jackrabbit It’s quite entertaining how western Lefties project all of their proletarian wet-dreams onto the poor Greeks but when their 6 month old Syriza governments fails to meet their expectations they immediately call for their heads. Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 29 2015 17:26 utc | 99 Yanis Varoufakis faces criminal prosecution over clandestine ‘Plan B’ currency plot Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 29 2015 18:00 utc | 100 |
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