6

Now the EU is claiming there was never any deal and they don't want to get suckered into second bailout.
They're waiting for Kerry to fly in and promise to 'backstop the IMF loans', like he did for Ukraine.
F*cker. Now we're on a $38B hook when Ukraine defaults in September. Greece was just the puppet theater.
That's why your RINO Congress looted $58 BILLION for a 'special fund' ... to bail out the IMF on Ukraine,
and the other $20B was probably already planned to backstop the *ORIGINAL* IMF loans to a Greece default.

Our National Treasury is being looted like lions ripping into a fresh zebra kill, when there is no need
for USAryans to pay taxes whatsoever! The Fed can print all the Bs of $100s that Mil.Gov needs to gnosh.
Then USAryans would be fed, clothed and housed, and the whole world would start paddling their boats here.

Instead ... MegaDeath, proving that The Chosen and their Yinnon Plan had absolutely NOTHING to do with
making Ysrael the 'model for peaceful government in the Middle East' that the hasbarim claimed it was.

Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 12 2015 4:36 utc | 101

82

Other problematic issues in the talks are access for 'inspectors' to military sites in Iran, 'inspectors' wearing GPS repeaters to target the bunker door locations of every one of those Iranian military sites, like they did in Iraq, and meanwhile the upload to satellite has the Israeli bmobardiers busy programming those GPS coordinates into their Obama Nuklear Bunker Busters, sold to them along with stealth radar jamming, in-flight refueling tankers and nuklear launch rail bmober modifications by Obama's SecDef Hagel, even as McCain and the NeoCons arm and fund Al Nusra and ISIS to overthrow Assad, occupy the military bases, disarm the radars, and leave Israel with a covert deniable dark-alley under-the-radar over-the-horizon fire-and-forget attack directly to Tehran and back.

And you can make bank on that.

Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 12 2015 4:57 utc | 102

EU nationalistic frenzy is over - at least in Germany. German transatlantic media - ie tabloid Bild which is a real power in German politics - offers a contest where you can win holidays in Greece. And - a gigantic headline on the refugee crisis - "Can a rich country like Germany be overwhelmed by refugees - Are we the problem and not the refugees?"

What Greece needs is a default within the Euro. They will not get it this time either, I suppose.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12 2015 9:26 utc | 103

@Neretva'43

If you are lurking here about... Ignorant as I am of the juman scale course of WWII I had no idea what Neretva '43 signified.

What is your connection Neretva '43 ... chetnik, judging by the tenor of your comments?

Posted by: jfl | Jul 12 2015 10:15 utc | 104

@Neretva'43

If you are lurking here about... Ignorant as I am of the human scale of the course of WWII I had no idea what Neretva '43 signified.

What is your connection to Neretva '43 ... chetnik, judging by the tenor of your comments?

Posted by: jfl | Jul 12 2015 10:18 utc | 105

Excellent Scott Jay: Lessons from the Greek tragedy. One of his comments:

Only two members of SYRIZA’s Left Platform voted against Tsipras’s proposal. Many even voted for it because they did not want SYRIZA to lose its majority. Others, such as Left Platform leader Panagiotis Lafazanis, abstained. Rather than use every parliamentary tactic they had to sabotage the deal, split SYRIZA, bring down the government and do everything they possibly could to pull the emergency break on this disastrous plan, they chose to maintain SYRIZA’s hold on parliament and their position in it. This has been the story of the self-inflicted death of various left-wing movements for at least 100 years–they are too committed to their own position to risk losing their position by employing its full power. If this is the left wing of SYRIZA, it is no wonder Tsipras felt that he could pass the austerity plan.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 12 2015 10:22 utc | 106

@105

See your @97 and @99 ... These, @105, are the moves made by intermediaries - separate from the people they represent and inevitably with perceived loyalties and agenda of their own. It's the same the world around in any hierarchic organization ... churches, schools, governments ...

Our intermediaries muddle through as long as there are no critical problems of the encompassing whole to be met, but that's not the case now ... certainly not in Greece but, given a time frame of just a few more years, certainly of a decade or more, in the world as a whole as well. Either the Greek people will collectively rise to the occasion and save themselves ... or they won't. Left to themselves the political class will do something which they feel more or less guarantees their own continued existence ... and that's about the 'best' that can be hoped for from them.

Either the Greek people will collectively rise to the occasion and save themselves ... or they won't.

In the somewhat longer term ... the short term even by the measure of a single human lifetime ... all of us will collectively rise to the occasion and save ourselves ... or we won't.

Look up and view our 'betrayers' ... some of them real nice folks. Relying on them we betray not only ourselves but those who will/would have come after us.

We need to look up for 'inspiration' ... for disillusion ... and with our neighbors collectively rise to the occasion and save ourselves and our progeny ... or not.

That's the way it looks to me at any rate. No help from 'above'.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 12 2015 11:54 utc | 107

fairleft et al.

I think that critics of Tsipras/Syriza are not taking into account the significant changes that have occurred after the referendum. As Tsipras told the Greek parliament: "For the first time, debt restructuring is on the table". This is largely because Greece now has the support of the US and France (and Italy and Luxembourg too, it seems) who recognize that the debt is unpayable and that a disaffected, chaotic Greece is against their interests.

Importantly, the Troika had promised debt relief and new investment but would never put any such promise in writing. And promises of debt write-downs had been made in the past but never materialized. It is only with the assurance and support of these other countries that Greece can rely on a debt restructuring to occur.

It seems clear now that Greece will get either a third bailout that includes debt restructuring and investment or a managed GRexit which means default, debt restructuring, and humanitarian & technical assistance to make the transition. Either of these is MUCH better than what Greece faced 5 months ago: unending austerity or the disaster of an abrupt, disorderly GRexit.

IMO that is why so many of the 'Left Platform' (the most lefty of Syriza MPs) didn't vote against the proposal (they abstained). Even Varoufakis, who said before the referendum that he'd rather "cut off his arm" than vote for the Troika 'take-it or leave-it' proposal, voted FOR the new proposal. So Tsipras is NOT a sell-out. Syriza are NOT lame stooges/"intermediaries"/etc. Neither have failed Greece or the Greek people.

I think that the confusion lies in how the politics gets played out on the surface. Germany will not accept a climb-down and Europe as a whole doesn't want to make a deal that will be a 'template' for other countries to seek debt relief. So, to remain in the Euro, Greece must accept some public humiliation (what looks like a bad deal and walk-back) while a side deal is done behind the scenes.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 12 2015 14:07 utc | 108

Donny Gluckstein, A people's history of the second World War, Chapter 3 Greece – Allies at War with the Resistance

The British supported dictatorship because, as another liaison officer explained in 1944, Greeks ‘are a fundamentally hopeless and useless people with no future or prospect of settling down to any form of sensible life within any measurable time … [They] are not capable of being saved from themselves nor for themselves worth it. This is also the unanimous opinion of all British liaison officers who have been long in the country.’

Nothing has changed but those who would be the immediate masters of the Greeks ... then Churchill and the British imperialists, now Merkel and the German imperialists. With the Americans in the wings at all times.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 12 2015 14:24 utc | 109

@107

' This is largely because Greece now has the support of the US and France (and Italy and Luxembourg too, it seems) who recognize that the debt is unpayable and that a disaffected, chaotic Greece is against their interests. '

A write-down of the debt in writing - 30%, 40%, 50% ? I don't think so. I think it's like George XLI's verbal promise to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe ... the only thing you can count on the US for is lies, double-dealing, and warfare - financial and terrorist-by-proxy.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 12 2015 14:31 utc | 110

FL@96

Your admission that you belong to the Cult of Keynes explains some of your delusions but not the multiple strawmen in your first paragraph.

Keynes' nostrums did smooth out the boom-bust cycles somewhat but they depended on unending growth/exploitation with wage and productivity gains to drive demand after the stimulus, none of which can or will exist in our End-Stage Capitalism, as we are seeing everywhere today.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 12 2015 15:40 utc | 111

Keynes' [ideas] depended on unending growth/exploitation with wage and productivity gains to drive demand after the stimulus, none of which can or will exist in our End-Stage Capitalism ...

A Keynesian economic approach is the best possible for any market-based economy to take, whether it is market socialist or market capitalist, and regardless of its 'stage'. But Keynesianism does not deal with political phenomena, for example that Big Finance and inherited wealth seem perhaps inevitably to dominate the power and politics of mature capitalism, that 'the investment community' is frustrated by mature economies' 2% profits/growth (though reliable 2% growth in a mature economy is in no way a problem for the 'non-investment community'), and therefore it turns for extraordinary growth to 'rent-forcing', asset-stripping, labor 'deforming' and otherwise funneling the wealth of the bottom 80% of the population to the top 5%.

And the preceding political picture is exactly what we are now dealing with. I think that what's left of democracy should be fighting for the common sense Keynesian approach of, for example, running deficits when most Western economies and their people are unemployed and their wages stagnating. (Do you have a better idea?) The past 7-8 years has been an ideal time for deficit-financed economic growth, since the only limit is inflation, which is virtually non-existent.

If you point out those 'straw men' I'm happy to respond to that accusation, but I won't do your argumentative job for you.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 12 2015 16:51 utc | 112

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 12, 2015 12:51:47 PM | 112

* A Keynesian economic approach is the best possible for any market-based economy
* Keynesianism does not deal with political phenomena
* [In a mature economy] 'the investment community'[...] turns for extraordinary growth to 'rent-forcing', asset-stripping, labor 'deforming' and otherwise funnel[s] the wealth of the bottom 80% of the population to the top 5%.

Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12 2015 19:00 utc | 113

yemen">https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/10/yemen-airstrike/">yemen bombings and saudi-usa bullshite..

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 1:47 utc | 114

messed up.. link here - https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/10/yemen-airstrike/

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 1:48 utc | 115

It also found that coalition aircraft attacked and seriously damaged at least five main markets in Saada.

....“As with the residential houses, multiple strikes on some of the markets suggest that they were the intended targets,” the report said. “Markets are normally civilian objects and should not be attacked. Human Rights Watch saw no evidence indicating that the markets had been used for military purposes, such as for the storage of significant munitions.”

Moreover, Human Rights Watch investigators found evidence at the scene of the strikes that U.S.-made bombs were used in the attacks.

At a government building in Saada, Human Rights Watch said, it photographed “the remnants of an MK-83 air-dropped 1,000-pound bomb made in the U.S.”

The United States is not a member of the Saudi-led coalition but has provided logistical support, including aerial refueling for attack aircraft.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article25835662.html#storylink=cpy

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 2:06 utc | 116

john at 76, okie at 77

"let's sing along..."

Should they stay? I think they should go. I thought okie farmer was following up with Four Horsemen (a Europacalypse!), but it's some documentary (sorry, okie). That was such a buzzkill I had to play my favorite tune from London Calling, Lost in the Supermarket, to cheer myself up.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 13 2015 2:15 utc | 117

@116

Why? I can only conclude that the US decided the Saudis had to learn how to use all that US military hardware they've bought and how to coordinate with the US Wehrmacht while doing so as well, so - not having an occupied population and occupied territories on which to practice like its evil Israeli twin - the US suggested the Saudis use Yemen.

  israelis:Judaeism::wahabists:Islam.

The Israelis have arranged for the US to pay for their Israeli Wehrmacht while the KSA fuels the US Wehrmacht in return for not being knocked off by the US/Israeli Axis. So far. And the KSA spends grillions for US weapons, and is now actually learning how to use them ... against whom, I wonder?

Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 2:22 utc | 118

Here's a interesting development Barflies will no doubt want to take in. Move and countermove by Poroshenko and Pravyi Sektor. The regime moved to crack down on smuggling in Mukachevo, in the west. A firefight developed, PS is mobilizing it's units not active at the front to demonstrate and to reinforce Mukachevo. See Bloodbath in Mukachevo and Mukachevo Postlude: Right Sector threatens Kiev.

Meanwhile others are not so eager to fight. Ukrainian tank battalion refuses to follow orders, wants to go home

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 13 2015 2:42 utc | 119

... against whom, I wonder?
Posted by: jfl | Jul 12, 2015 10:22:16 PM | 118

Iran.
I can hardly wait.
There's nothing quite as LOL as a good ol' Saudi-Israelia suicide bombing twofer...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 13 2015 2:52 utc | 120

@116 jfl... yes, that and preparation for war and more war as part of the perpetual war party they signed up with some time ago.. what a backward culture and society it appears as in terms of it's leadership..

@119 rufus.. thanks.

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 8:01 utc | 121

New Cold War also has a report on Mukachevo.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 13 2015 12:04 utc | 122

UK has just blocked account of Russia Today as part of the asset freezing on the basis of the EHRC ruling in favor of Yukos shareholders that was ignored by Russia.

Logically, Russian government should now retaliate, freezing assets of all Western government sponsored televisions operating in Russia. Oh, wait... There is literally zero Western government sponsored media operating in Russia, while there is a number of Russian government sponsored media operating in the West. Looks like censorship and total media control in Russia has some advantages after all in long term...

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 13 2015 13:11 utc | 123

@122 arbat.. wow.. rt really has legs!!! freaks a lot of financial oligarchs out or something..

don't worry about the west trying to brainwash russian citizens.. they start with western citizens like yourself first!!!

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 19:56 utc | 124

jfl
*and China is as intent on global hegemony as is the US, * [1]

and u'r either smoking some damned good stuff or a disinfo agent.

[1]
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/07/greece-schaeubles-track.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef01b7c7ad91a7970b

Posted by: denk | Jul 14 2015 16:09 utc | 125

* I believe [sic] their mistreatment of the Tibetans and Uighurs is worse. So I wonder still, despite your assertions and assurances, what's up in Xinjiang.*

xinjiang is more militarised than ever.....i wonder why ?
even in beijing, the cops have started carrying sidearms for the first time, after spades of brutal attacks by xin militants.
thank you very much, murcunts.

many han taxi drivers refuse to take uighurs passengers these days, partly out of fear , partly due to rising resentment on the recurrent violence.
a han nanny who used to babysit for her uighur neighbor no longer does it, the warm relation bet the families has turned cold, they no longer speak to each other.

thank you very much,.....

meanwhile, to *stem* the tide of violence, the ccp has ordered more restrictions on religious rituals and mass gatherings, some critics think these are actually counter productive measures which would invoke more resentment.
to be sure, such policies provide more ammunitions to the likes of wsj, rfa, cnn, where talking heads solemny inform its readers *far from accomodating to the uighurs aspirations, [sic] the chinese are ramping up their repression in xinjiang*

hmm
the turks are attacking chinese,

thank you very much...

Posted by: denk | Jul 15 2015 7:07 utc | 126

@125 @126

As I said, I have no doubts that the CIA is fueling 'jihad' in Xijiang ... but banning Ramadan? The Plutocrats' Republic brooks no dissent! And the Plutocrats have plans for 'their' western provinces.

I also realize that the US behavior makes anyone and everyone else's look angelic in its shadow ... but the PRC has problems and is developing the power to 'solve' its problems. The application of power is hegemonic. And real financial power - as opposed to that of the monkey-wrench that the US is still able to wield - is much more power than the military variety. I imagine the wide open spaces north of the border in Russia will be 'developed' by the Plutocrats from the South. Maybe I've grown terminally cynical. I hope its only me.

The turks are attacking Chinese ... ? No, the Turks are channeling the CIA's Uighurs and Chechens into Syria.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 15 2015 20:24 utc | 127

arbat at 123 --

I don't get it. The people that joked "There is no news in Pravda and no truth in Izvestiya" is now solely reliant on the monolithic state media? The culture that produced samizdat is now composed totally of couch potatoes, devoid of curiosity?

Congrats, it looks like post-Soviet Russia did Westernize, after all. Too bad about the old "thick" journals.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 16 2015 2:11 utc | 128

"Round about the cauldron go/In the poison'd entrails throw/Double, double toil and trouble/Fire burn, and cauldron bubble."

From academic Gordon Hahn, via Russia Insider, asks if Ukraine’s Right Sector Preparing to Strike Against the Government?.

It appears PS [Pravyi Sektor] might be preparing to seize power in western Ukraine first, declare an independent Galician republic under its control, and then move on Kiev.

This follows the pattern of the Maidan revolution/revolt in 2014, when nationalist, anti-Yanukovich, anti-Russian elements began to rally in Lviv, threaten secession from Ukraine, and then moved to Kiev and the Maidan. The radicals among them then organized self-defense forces for the Maidan and worked closely or actually joined Right Sector.

For the brave, curious, or foolhardy, Fort Russ has Russian journalist Grigory Ignatov on the implications of the conflict between Pravyi Sektor and Poroshenko. Like Hahn, he believes the goal is regional autonomy for Galicia, centered on Lvov. He cites several of the public statements of PS regarding their mobilization and checkpoints, and this seems a not unreasonable surmise:

There is traditionally a high percentage of sympathisers of the radical nationalists, here they can recruit new cadres, a long-standing dialogue has been established with many of the power structures (if not fusion). And there is another significant factor – the desire of Galicia to expand its own managerial and financial autonomy. More than once the Galicians lost during redistribution of power.

Ignatov sees this a potentially positive. Ultranationalists would be drawn to the area, easing pressure on the Donbas. Should Kiev move regulars and loyal volunteers to the east, Mariupol or other areas could be lost. But that is unlikely, as any action against Lvov will produce a "monstrous cognitive dissonance that it will almost certainly lead to the overall collapse of the entire modern Ukrainian mythology."

Apparently, Kiev and Pravyi Sektor are agreed on one thing, though -- Putin is behind it.

Yulia Timoshenko has lined up with Pravyi Sektor. Kristina Rus introduces a clip of her by saying:

The moment of truth has arrived. Kiev politicians continue to take sides in "Right Sector" vs. "Interior Ministry/Poroshenko" stand-off. Yulia Timoshenko sided with Yatsenyuk, neo-Nazi battalions and the extremist Right Sector against Ukrainian security forces supporting Poroshenko by accusing them of corruption and engagement in smuggling publicly on Ukrainian TV.

Now this from Pravda rings true, I'd say. Emptiness, Fear, and Hatred are engulfing Kiev, as easy access to arms, unemployment, and a general air of lawlessness has produced a crime wave.

At least Pravyi Sektor is doing it for a good cause. Prominent PS blogger Olena Bilozerskaya justified raising funds through common robbery. I thought it a good question when she asked (rhetorically, of course) "[W]here do all, including financial resources of the Right Sector go - if not a victory in the Liberation war?"

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 16 2015 3:32 utc | 129

jfl 127

a *terminally cynical* ctitic would've wondered if all these talk about *evil ccp banning ramandan* is just more psyops to rile up the international jihadists agaisnt china?
even if the beleaguered chinese govn had really implemented such *shooting themselves in the foot* snafu , to call its desparate bid to stem the cia sponsored jihad as *suppressing dissent* or *hegemonic* is truely worthy of a wall street journal editorial ,no less. !

china has a shortage of arable land while russia has a woefully underultilised siberia land mass, moscow lease a minute dot out of this immense vastness to the chinese for farming.
the chinese find a way to alleviate their problem, the russians get extra income.
a win win deal by any standard.

so this is your *proof of* chinese aspiration to *world hegemony* ?
sounds a lot like those shills who peddle the *chinese gonna take over siberia* fear mongering in various forums,.

u'r definetly wsj editor material !

Posted by: denk | Jul 16 2015 15:33 utc | 130

Further news from the lunatic asylum: Truthful Experts of Rosaviatsia published a new version of the events from 17 July 2015. The Boeing was shot down, hold your breath, by an Ukrainian Su-25 with Georgian modifications and Israeli rocket. No, really that's serious - today it was repeated by the Investigative Committee and you will soon surely see a number of full-blown English translations on your favorite "The Honest Truth from Russia" blogs, so much loved by Rufus.

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 16 2015 22:05 utc | 131

@128 These people are still there, you can find them in Novaya Gazeta, TV Dozhd and on blogs. They are threatened, killed, beaten, arrested, but they still do think and write for themselves about the madness that surrounds us. However, the majority of the population takes all their news from TV and this is precisely why all TV stations were forcibly taken over by the government since 2000.

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 16 2015 22:08 utc | 132

Arbat at 128 --

Still around, but oddly ignored.

Constant arrests, beatings, confiscations? I wonder, are the killings keeping pace with the 90's? They hadn't the last time I checked a no. of months ago (in response to an earlier posting along this line), and I would doubt if the numbers have moved that much. I could provide a few hints on search terms, but I'm sure you'll manage.

Majority believe in TV -- like I said, y'all are Westernized now. The media (dominated by just a few firms) and government here are formally distinct. But they both have the same paymasters, so the effect is nearly the same.

and at 131 --

Actually, I was going to go with this, from Russia Insider but an English-language analysis from a former intelligence operative. I don't normally cite the conservative Unz Review, but when you're right, you're right, as they are here, with MH17: The Blaming Putin Game Goes On.

According to leaks of its conclusions, the report will admit that there is no conclusive evidence regarding who is responsible for the shoot down but it will nevertheless make a circumstantial case that the pro-Russian separatists are the most likely suspects in spite of the fact that there is no hard technical or intelligence related evidence supporting that judgment....

Among former intelligence, military and Foreign Service officers there has been considerable discussion of the significance of Washington’s standing on the sidelines regarding the findings....

According to some sources, the U.S. intelligence community disagrees over the likelihood of the alleged Russian role and has suggested as much privately to the Dutch.

Some analysts who have looked at all the considerable body of information that has been collected relating to the downing actually believe that the most likely candidate might well be the then governor of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Ihor Kolomoisky.... known to employ Israeli mercenaries as advisers and... [to have] personally organized and paid for militias fighting the Russian separatists. He would have been strongly motivated to create an incident that could plausibly be blamed on the Russians or their surrogates and he had the means to do so.

So any number of hats are in the ring.

Nice to get props from someone in the trade -- you're here to provide the "honest truth" (from god-knows-where) yourself, aren't you? "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32, KJV) I try to do my modest part in the collective effort to establish just what "The Truth" is. Just Gimme some Truth.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 17 2015 0:11 utc | 133

@133 But they both have the same paymasters, so the effect is nearly the same - so what you see as a pathology in the West, is an advantage in Russia?

the most likely candidate might well be the then governor - this is precisely why I started my comment with the "further news from the lunatic asylum" phrase.

So any number of hats are in the ring - how do people in your circles explain the boasting by separatist in Russian media about downing an alleged An-26 precisely on July 17? As well as downing a number of military airplanes in the previous days, flying up to 6 km, as well as boasting about finally acquiring "Buk" launchers in late June?

Constant arrests, beatings, confiscations? I wonder, are the killings keeping pace with the 90's?

Actually, yes. In 90's there were 96 journalists murdered. Under Putin there were 134 murdered so far. What is even worse, the most respected figures were eliminated under Putin: Estemirova, Politkovskaya, Markelov, Baburova, Klebnikov, Nemtsov. And, if you ask about "keeping pace" I won't probably need to remind you that Putin came to power precisely on the promises of ending the "wild 90's".

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 17 2015 8:43 utc | 134

And because you always moan about links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqjMfA47iRM this is LifeNews piece from 17 July 2014. The Russian top news channel boasts about "yet another victory of Donbass self-defence" who shot "yet another Ukrainian An-26 flying over Torez". This was aired literally moments after the plane was shot and nobody knew it was a civilian Boeing.

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 17 2015 11:09 utc | 135

Want some more links? Here we go: http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017 Russian TASS agency, 17 July 2014, 19:04 Moscow time: "Self-defence of DNR downed Ukrainian army An-26". The lead says: "Witnesses say the airplane was hit with a rocket near town of Torez, after which it started falling, crashed and burnt on the ground".

The article also goes through the history of achievements of the newly acquired "self-defence" anti-aircraft rocket division. On 14 July they also downed a plane, and it was actually An-26 that time. The article also mentions that on 15 July the Ukrainian military HQ has stopped any military flights over the are as result of downing of that airplane.

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 17 2015 11:37 utc | 136

And one more triumphal news from our official media, exactly year ago: http://ria.ru/world/20140717/1016409306.html "Transporter An-26 shot down in East Ukraine, announced self-defence"

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 17 2015 11:46 utc | 137

Arbat --

More links are always good, though these allegations are well-known. The vkontakte page that was the source of these reports was disavowed, I alluded in an earlier post.

This would fall under "there is no hard technical or intelligence related evidence supporting that judgment...." As the Unz Review item at 133 noted, the best evidence remains un-presented, with Uncle Sam strangely quiet on the matter. You could address that directly, if you wished.

I'm more interested in your source of data on journalists, which you fail to provide.

See the breakdown by year at Committee to Protect Journalists. They report 80 journalists killed since 1992. The largest single toll was in 1995, when 12 were killed. None were killed in 2014 and none yet in 2015.

No, it's all pathology, and I would allow that in Russia it is worse. Our big moral failings now are drone strikes and illegal mass surveillance. Presently, we're only charging journalists with espionage.

It was Yeltsin's rush to plunder the collective property of the Soviet people that introduced mass criminality into economics and politics. That Putin has reduced this by restraining the oligarchs is part of his popularity.

I see the main problem with the neo-liberal opposition in Russia getting its message across is -- it's message. As Soviet history suggests, if folks are sufficiently motivated, they will find other sources.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 17 2015 12:21 utc | 138

@139 You are again wrong about the opposition figures being killed: in 2014 there was one journalist-activist murdered (Timur Kuashev) and in 2015 one politician (Boris Nemtsov). And just a few days ago a poet (Alexander Byvshev) was sentenced as a terrorist for writing poems (!) against the war in Ukraine. Quite likely he will be killed soon by some overzealous "patriot".

"That Putin has reduced this by restraining the oligarchs" - he did not "restrain" them. They are stealing and enjoying life beyond all laws just as they did before. Putin himself had a number of criminal cases against him back in 90's for corruption and theft, all were dropped when he falsified the elections.

"As Soviet history suggests" - the history of my country in 20th century mostly suggests that a state built on lies and oppression will suffer socially, economically and then collapse.

"The vkontakte page that was the source of these reports was disavowed" - VK info and TASS/RIA/LN news appeared at the same time, so VK could not have been a source for the media. They are, especially LifeNews, all the time on the ground in Donbass, so they must have received this info from DNR commanders.

Posted by: Arbat | Jul 17 2015 20:19 utc | 139

Arbat at 140 --

As always, any sources are appreciated.

I cited journalists specifically as that seemed to be your topic. It think their murder a a good index of the overall level of violence.

You will need to take it up the numbers with the Committee to Protect Journalists, I understand them to be quite respected amongst their fellow scriveners.

Nemtsov's murder does not seem attributable to the Russian state, we'll see what comes of the trial of the suspects.

I think only the late Mozgovoy would have posed any real threat to the oligarchs (East and West) as a class. I think it undeniable that Putin is more in control of them; Yeltsin was basically a puppet of the oligarchs he served to create, especially after his re-election.

And in between all that suffering they defeated Hitler, thanks to an industrial state built from scratch, and started the space race. The semi-feudal autocracy and its noble service gentry had mostly produced oppression (too bad the Decemberists failed), and barely bothered with lies. Russia still has the most experience in manned space flight and orbital operations.

We ourselves here have plenty of lies, and we're working on the oppression. At present, it is largely confined to the poor in general and minorities in particular. If murder by drone is our foreign poison, then the continued insistence in many areas (not just in the South) upon the Confederate "heritage" and related "Christian" doctrines is the domestic one.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 18 2015 0:26 utc | 140

that was fast, deleted less than 10 min. after posting in the guardian...

**************************

there'r lots of points raised by posters in this minor thread, plenty misconeptions,
hope this helps !

on this case,
*cia/mi6 shenanigans in china well documented, they are up to their eyeballs from the tam destabilisation to tibet, xinjiang, hk, civil and labor unrests.
its highly plausible that these *charity* group has been caught, or perceived to engage in monkey bussiness like fanning mongol independence movement or inciting jihad against the han infidels.

cia/mi6 have been using jihadists mercs since the day of afghan war, later in kosovo, macedonia, libya, syria, chechyna, xinjiang.....

on animal abuses,
*the current record holders are ukus,
exhibit a - gasing hundreds of cats , dogs belonged to the chagosians to force them to vacate the isle for an murkkan base.

exhibit b - imported 5000 animals to the bikini island for radiation test after setting off dozens of nuke bombs.
these just for starters,

on human rights abuses,
*the current record holders are ukus,
re, diego garcia, bikini island, okinawa, jeju, christma island etc ....these are just kids stuffs tho when compared to the crimes in indonesia, nam , laos, cambodia, iraq, yugo, afpak, ...

on un-peace loving countries,
the current record holders are ukus,
do i need to trot out the evidences ?

Posted by: denk | Jul 18 2015 16:18 utc | 141

denk at 142 -- All pretty dastardly, but gassing animals for a base sounds particularly inhumane.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 18 2015 16:24 utc | 142

rufus magister 143

im referring to this thread where brits and yanks accuse china of all of the above....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/18/british-tourists-northern-china-deported-inner-mongolia#comment-55963420

Posted by: denk | Jul 18 2015 16:47 utc | 143

While they don't seem to be strong enough to destroy the junta state, the fallout of Mukachevo would seem sufficient to keep the Ukraine unstable.

The Pravyi Sektor miitants involved are still on the move towards Poland.

The question of Hungarians and Rusyns further complicates matters. Hungary admits to having run intelligence operations in the region to secure its own interests in the recent past. The article also discussion the Rusyns, a Slavic group of contested origin.

Long-standing demands by the Rusyns for autonomy for the region is political issue, as Russian commentator Vladimir Druzhinin makes clear in finding Transcarpathia at a crossroads. But he does not see them as benefiting.

Probably in the near future Transcarpathia will come under heavy pressure from security forces. Those who will suffer the most, are not the Ukrainian nationalists (they will simply be removed from the feeder, but not declared illegal), but Rusyns. They will lose the opportunity to freely express their views and to demand Kiev to respect their cultural rights.

The underlying dispute -- who controls the border and with it, skimming the smuggling -- is big business, maybe as much as the legit Ukr. econ.

RIA Novosti reports that Pravyi Sektor officially says "we are not seeking to start a civil war, and God forbid, to continue armed resistance.... We want to alleviate the tension."

I don't know that I buy that. And certainly don't be fooled by the bogus "autonomy" offered by the Rade (at the insistence of the Americans, with the ambassador present, apparently). Activists of the Ukrainian left group "Borotba" will bring you up to speed.

It seems the US continues to find Poroshenko useful, even as he tries to obtain, if not a monopoly on violence like a solid state, at least a preponderance of force. While control over its client is not tight, it is sufficient for Washington's purposes, and can be invoked when needed.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jul 18 2015 17:06 utc | 144