What Greece needs is a default within the Euro. They will not get it this time either, I suppose. somebody at 102 in open thread.
No, of course not.
I see on the live news at the Guardian that there is a lot of talk of ‘lost trust’, ‘breach of trust’ and ‘conditionalities’ (meaning, if the Greeks make promises how can we be sure that they will be fulfilled, what are the ‘conditions’..)
This is a last ditch measure to get rid of the interlocutor. You negotiate (or pretend to), refuse to hear the other side, the propositions or what not, negate or side-step, quibble, throw accusations about, muddle everything, you let the situation run on, nothing gets done. The French call this la stratégie du pourrissement (deterioration, but pourri means rotten). Then once your opposing party capitulates, you say: Well sorry that isn’t enough, you will have to sacrifice more.
And when they accept that, in utter despair, you stab them in the back, and tell them you can’t trust them to abide by the deal, conditions, whatever.
Forbes outlines the German (Schauble I presume) plan for ‘taking over Greece’ according to one of the latest German proposals.
http://tinyurl.com/nwptuca

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12 2015 16:49 utc | 4

> ab initio at 1.
Finnish + other EU / Euro countries tax payers won’t pay for greek debt. (See okie’s post as well) but follow along..
A simple chart from le Figaro in F, 26 June, one of the better ones, top of Goog, comprehensible imho.
http://tinyurl.com/ona4gls
It shows the bulk of the debt is lodged at the The EFSF, European Financial Stability Facility, founded May 2010. All decent articles will state the same, or cite the ESM.
The EFSF is a *Private Company* under *Luxemburg* law. It flogs low-yield bonds. The investors are Central Banks/Gvmts/Sovereign Funds (30%), Banks (40%), Fund managers, Pension funds, and private. 50% in the Euro Area, next Asia (Nomura and Daiwa are bank partners), next UK and Switzerland.
It is often confused with the ESM – European Stability Mechanism, founded Sept. 2012, an inter-governmental institution under International Law.
If the ESM is or not an EU institution is hard to say (there *is* text in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union – the amendement was specifically designed to exclude the possibility of a referendum) though its scope of action is European (geographical) and its members are all Euro currency countries. Its investors resemble those of the EFSF, bonds are low-yield.
I could not figure out the relationship between the two (imho the ESM it to take over the EFSF but that hasn’t been done yet?), it is all very confused, deliberately so imho.
Those who will ‘pay’, i.e. absorb some financial losses – not garnering the ‘interest’ they counted on (they took that risk), on the face of it, thus, are these bondholders.
There is a knot (I’m not in finance, so please correct if, this is only from looking things up wiki like) it appears (very unclear, see links) that the members of the ESM (to treat only that for the mo) are at the same time the guarantees for these bonds, they can be forced to stump up to compensate losses. These bonds have a TOPTOP rating, are considered super-safe. Because, I suppose, of that guarantee. See Pension funds buying…
So in a sense you are right, as the Gvmts. are the end of the line on the hook, but it there is many a slip betwix the cup and the lip, and an Exit of the Euro changes the situation (imho.)
ESM site
http://www.esm.europa.eu/index.htm
🙂 click to see something you have never seen before on the internet (text 3 lines), the Disclaimer on the ESM site:
http://www.esm.europa.eu/investors/disclaimer.htm
an anti-ESM article (see also vid at top in German Eng subs)
http://tinyurl.com/7fl3po3
Addendum. The Troika (ECB, IMF, European Commission) decides what program (IMF, ESM, etc., what conditions, reforms, etc.) will be implemented, so far for Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Cyprus, and Greece. These are NOT the creditors, they are the decisionary / supervisory board. They may however also be financially involved (yikes.)
Confused? So am I. The shame is the real structures are kept under cover, or layered into arcane, obfuscating guff, misdirection. Finns think they have to pay for bouzouki CDs and Retsina for Greeks so they can party while they shiver, argh.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12 2015 18:31 utc | 6

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12, 2015 2:31:16 PM | 5

You are requested to ensure that you are legally authorized to access this site. By clicking “I agree” below, you represent that you […] Are not physically present in the United States of America or a “U.S. person” as defined in Regulation S under the U.S. Securities Act of 1933, as amended.”

O my goodness! What tempting nuggets would be thereafter revealed?

Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12 2015 19:15 utc | 8

re okie farmer @ 3
To add to your spot-on post (if everyone read Bill Mitchell this lack of understanding would change fast), in order for any economy to grow, it’s money supply has to grow…spending (GDP) can’t be increased (in the real world) without printing more money, because very little of the money we have (savings) ever gets spent. For every dollar someone spends, someone else is saving two. There is no ‘circulation’ per se without some entity (almost always the government) forcing money through the system.
The conventional wisdom that ‘printing’ money (government spending) is harmful or inflationary is so much nonsense yet it seems to have been internalized by 95% of the World’s population.
Without money ‘printing’ we would all be living like the Amish. I will take inflation over deflation any day. Our last ‘liberal’ President, Richard Nixon, (in public investment terms) believed the ideal level of inflation was 4% per year…now, we target 2%.
Greece’s money supply is ‘draining’ away towards it’s trading partners…Greece’s borrowing is funding them. Good luck to them as they drain one economy after another in the Eurozone. When one player in a poker game ends up with all the money at the table, the game is over.

Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 12 2015 19:25 utc | 10

Greece fiscal sovereignty surrender is demanded by elite European terrorists. But these terrorists wear nice suits.
The fourth Reich is showing its fangs a lot more now more now.
Because Merkel and other poorly concealed fascists elite in Europe posing as Democrats, they are even more pissed off about weak democratic resistance in Greece where they haven’t out right surrendered yet.
because of that resentment of human independence, she now demands The Greek government handover Greeces fiscal control as part of a worsening debt slavery deal.
These terror elite freaks a super pissed and want to drive Greece into the fucking dirt as an example, and as punishment for not being willing slaves.

Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 20:44 utc | 12

‘This is a coup’
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-33497309

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 21:18 utc | 14

Seems obvious now ( if it wasn’t already ) that debt slavery isn’t just about asset theft and depredations, it’s about smaller nation state surrender to ongoing long term domination by larger states.
Since war is currently unacceptable, then financial war is widely accpected by the vast majority of the people in the West, when it West on West wars.

Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 21:34 utc | 16

“For every dollar someone spends, someone else is saving two.”
oops.

Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 12 2015 22:16 utc | 18

Funny or Die, trade Florida for Greece
https://youtu.be/Ast52VeMvfw

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 22:50 utc | 20

All this ” trust” talk is fucking bullshit.
So, for the last 5 years that the terrorist troika and EU states knew that Greece couldn’t pay off it’s fraudulently induced and locally corrupt debt, but kept lending it to them anyway so to steal and impoverish them with near zero real fightback, because they trusted there would be no fightback.
Weaken and then conquer is the plan.
The European Evil elite “trusted” all those years of stealing from Greece and starving their people to death with much resistance, but since the democratic vote, now trust is an issue?!?!?! After 5 years of un-payable debt loaded on with endless amount of more un-payable debt……yeah right.
It’s obvious, but unsaid of course, that the real lack of trust, is a lack of trust of full Greek surrender to their slave masters in the EU. So that “trust” PR bullshit ( which will work on the majority of people in the West ) will be used to try get general support and to force Greece to hand over their economic sovereignty, which is no sovereignty at all, but an atempt at forced surrender to domination-ists.

Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 23:44 utc | 22

“O my goodness! What tempting nuggets would be thereafter revealed?”
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12, 2015 3:15:31 PM | 7
I clicked it, its just a bunch of pornography. Weird.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 12 2015 23:54 utc | 24

Emma Roberts: (Emma Screams)
Emma Roberts: Emma Screams
Julia Roberts: (Julia Screams)
Julia Roberts: Julia Screams
Emma Stone: (Emma Screams)
Emma Stone: Emma Screams
Julie Roberts: (Julie Screams)
Julie Roberts: Julie Screams
Julia Lescova: (Julia Screams)
Julia Lescova: Julia Screams
Julie Stiles: (Julie Screams)
Julie Stiles: Julie Screams

Posted by: Njal | Jul 13 2015 0:01 utc | 26

@8/16 comrade x… exactly… many folks still haven’t figured that out..
@3 okie.. not a bad overview.. missing lots, but a good start… to say the whole financial world at this point is one giant ponzi scheme is not a stretch of my imagination..
@9 paulmeli..that is true so long as your currency is the world currency, or a part of the basket of currencies that hold this special sort of status until they don’t.. the usa has been allowed to do this in exchange for china holding the bag.. that is just one example of the relationships going on.. these types of games that many other countries aren’t privy to.. greece is one of them.. canada would be another for example.. all of it is run thru various ”world” agencies like the imf and world bank.. you either play along with their game, or you have a financial sanction gun to your head.. see russia, iran, iraq, and others for recent examples.. all classic bullshit from the demons/elites running world finance at present..

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 1:07 utc | 28

jfl @28: “hard to imagine the outcome of all this”. Not hard to see it’s an ongoing strategy of chaos and destabilization. In a capitalist crisis, the goal is to sabotage your competitors before they beat you.
Same bullshit here.

Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 13 2015 3:03 utc | 30

“Who knows what the CIA has been doing in Xinjiang. ”
There is a large and propagandized population in Northern Virginia, especially in the environs near Langley. They do political work around the country and especially in DC, they seem like a little lobbying group. I’ve seen “Uighur Genocide” t-shirts and ridiculous things like that. The quote I’ve heard: “we’re treated worse than Palestinians”. Whoa! Who does it sound like wrote that line? I hadn’t heard of China bombing Xinjiang with F-16s or anything else lately, though I have heard of a whole lot of bombs going off targeting the Han Chinese. Typical USA story – up is down, down is up.
It’s exactly the fraudulent history page from the Ukraine playbook. Its disgusting the way the USA is twisting history all over the world. Its vile. Its like they’re attempting to establish a whole new era where they’ll write all that came before to their own benefit. If it sounds very “1984” then I think you’re probably getting the right idea.
In terms of genocide, of course any thinking person has to conclude that the Russians and Chinese are pikers compared to the US Americans who are the genocide professionals – if they weren’t there wouldn’t be a Uighur or a Ukrainian left (or maybe a few on some scattered reservations). The USAians are so good, they’ve even got your average midwestern American like WayOutWest cheering on the foul bloodletting and genocide of ISIS. And this, ladies and gentlemen of the world, are the “liberals”!
Make no mistake, the US are bringing a huge number exiles here and filling their heads with all kinds of complete bullshit, for the same purpose they’ve always used the exile communities: war abroad, and when needed, war at home (just ask the Kennedy’s).

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 13 2015 4:16 utc | 32

guest77 @31: The nationalist Uighurs — in a state/region that for many centuries has been multi-ethnic, with a sizeable percentage of Han Chinese (see Wikipedia before it is taken over by the usual suspects) — are part of the CIA effort to block the China-Pakistan-Iran economic corridor.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 6:01 utc | 34

@32 fairleft.. you could always post in the open threads that b creates.. other then that – i dunno!

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 7:58 utc | 36

jfl @34: I generally agree, except it’s confusing to rename China ‘the plutocrats’ republic’, since there are many examples of such and better, I suppose. The ideal outcome in the battle between China/Russia and the West is a balanced face-off that allows space and support for democratic sovereignty and economic prosperity. Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.
I also think China simply is at a different capitalist stage, and is more strongly state-directed for overall state/military goals, than is the West, which is deep into financial sector dominated capitalism. China’s motives are certainly not pure, but economic development of the sort they are promoting is absolutely good for workers in general and for Pakistan, Iran, the central Asian nations, and to name a few.
In the long run China will likely become a pro-austerity financialist a-hole, but that’s hopefully for the workers to decide.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 8:20 utc | 38

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955
Donald Tusk: “After 17 hours of negotiations we have reached agreement”
Eurozone leaders have reached agreement over a third Greek bailout after marathon talks in Brussels.
EU chairman Donald Tusk said leaders agreed “in principle” on negotiations for the bailout, “which in other words means continued support for Greece”.
Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said that after a “tough battle”, Greece had secured a “growth package” of €35bn (£25bn), and won debt restructuring.
Greece will now have to pass reforms demanded by the eurozone by Wednesday.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 9:48 utc | 40

@37
‘it’s confusing to rename China ‘the plutocrats’ republic’ … maybe, but it is run by plutocrats’. It’s much more confusing to call China ‘the peoples’ republic’, don’t you agree? But that’s what the Communist (choke) Party of China calls it.
So, you’re looking forward to ‘The ideal outcome … Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.’
You’re kidding, right?
Luckily you can’t go back in time, but if you did … you’re old enough to remember? … you’d bump into a lot of things you’ve forgotten about. The Vietnam War, gas guzzlers, wall-to-wall-propaganda on both sides, geopolitics justifying anything … and so forth. Hey, sounds like right now, doesn’t it? I’m looking forward to an advance … because it’s essential. I realize it seems unlikely from here, but I’m certainly not looking forward to what does seem likely from here. More of same … until it proves terminal.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 10:28 utc | 42

The Germans certainly didn’t want this ‘solution’ … but the US insisted on it … wonder why ?
If the Fed Has Nothing to Hide, It Has Nothing to Fear

In 2010, as part of the Dodd-Frank bill, Congress authorized a one-time audit of the Federal Reserve’s activities during the financial crisis of 2008. The audit revealed that between 2007 and 2008 the Federal Reserve loaned over $16 trillion — more than four times the annual budget of the United States — to foreign central banks and politically-influential private companies.

I saw that $16,000,000,000,000 figure in a counterpunch article and followed the link. Poor Athena now plays Atlas with the weight of the whole fictional financial world on her shoulders.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 10:58 utc | 44

jfl @41 Let’s go back what I wrote (emphasis added):

The ideal outcome in the battle between China/Russia and the West is a balanced face-off that allows space and support for democratic sovereignty and economic prosperity. Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.

Yes, many countries (The Nonaligned Movement) in those days (roughly 1945 to 1975) were able to find a space for sovereignty between the two giant hegemons, in part by playing them off against each other. This is not possible with a single dominant hegemon like the US. As for workers, most Western countries were initially frightened of the threat of Soviet Union inspired socialism and they therefore conceded some of their capitalist profits to workers, partly in the form of empowered unions. In the less developed world, both the Soviet Union and The West competed to showcase ‘their’ form of development, and such plans were more successful in those days than in this uniformly (with the exception of China) neoliberal anti-development development era.
None of the above analysis is unusual, none of it has to do with gas guzzlers and the Vietnam War, and none of it warrants an “Are you kidding” response.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 13:10 utc | 46

@44
Not stupid … betrayed. They need to demand … better, to conduct their own … referendum on the ‘deal’ their ‘representatives’ made in the backroom.
This is not rocket science. All they/we need is two envelopes for each voter in each precinct.
One is the outer envelope identifying the voter and the other is blank, protecting the vote. The ballot is marked, placed in the inner, blank envelope and sealed; the inner, blank envelope is placed in the outer authenticating/authorizing envelope and sealed.
Two teams publicly count the vote. One team verifies and tallies the voters, opens the outer envelopes, and puts the inner envelopes containing the ballots back in the ballot box to be opened and counted by the second team.
The precinct tallies are posted and the ballots and both sets of envelopes are saved for inspection and recounts. Repeat in each precinct.
Let the tallies bubble up to district and province and national level. Publish linked spreadsheets with all the labeled sub-tallies and there you have it. Bottom-up voting. Bottom-up democracy. Works in Greece, works in Germany, works in Russia, works in China, works in the USA. The democratic behavior defines the democratic organism.
Who can argue with the voice of the people?

Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 13:27 utc | 48

re james @ 27
Yes, I agree that is the gorilla in the room.
But a lot of the politics (and economics) is based on the notion that money is a scarce resource, so that myth must be done away with if we are to make progress. Politics doesn’t trump arithmetic, but it can make it go horribly wrong.
There’s a reason the theory of money systems is not allowed to be taught at any level in our education systems. Bernard Lietaer, one of the original architects of the Euro (he bailed early) tells a story of a conversation he had with Paul Krugman:
He was told to “never touch the money system’ or he would be excluded from any chance of success or a Nobel in economics.
Krugman to Lietaer: “never touch the money system”
They’re all in on the con.

Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 13 2015 13:38 utc | 50

@45
You’re right, a multi-centered hegemony is better than a global hegemony. And maybe we won’t be trading a universal US hegemony for a universal Chinese one. But in fact we don’t even have a universal US/EU hegemony now. We’d have no wars if we did.
I am looking forward, though, to such a distribution of power, to us ‘below’, that hegemony becomes a thing of the past. That world wars become impossible, incomprehensible … where would the people allow the requisite concentration of power that would enable such an occurrence? Perhaps you’d call it a mega-centered or giga-centered hegemony.
@46
I’m still of the opinion that it’s a waste of time to blame the politicians for acting within their class constraints, just as it is a waste of time wishing the plutocrats would not act within theirs. We the people who have little left to lose are actually the least constrained of all, if only we’d realize it, pull up our sox, and take over. The problem is the (self-selected) ‘middle class’, who still feel they have something left to lose. But the plutocrats are steadily eliminating them, day by day.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 13:49 utc | 52

A good example of the excuse-making! Please be specific, what specifically were the masters of finance wielding against ‘heroic’ but naive/unprepared Yanis and Tsipras? fairleft at 52
Nothing. They wielded nothing. (Until the end.. music…) They just sat and let them talk and ignored them and wore them down. (My mention of javelins etc. is maybe over the top but I can’t resist that kind of stuff.) They obfuscated, encouraged, and were stern, etc. They made no threats, they laid out the deal, the choices, take it or leave it. The masters of finance, as you call it, have no interest in Yanis or Tsipras, they are a temporary annoyance. However, to get them to capitulate, the ELA (and intl payments) were shut off.
That worked.
I don’t think they are heroes, fl, not at all. In fact I don’t like them much, that is just me. They are exactly the kind of political force – some might say upstarts – that arise in such a situation. And that ppl seem to adulate and believe in…But nor are they traitors. Seeing them as traitors is comfortable: all is explained by duplicity of two or more persons, dark plots…this is a shallow reading of the situation as a whole.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 13 2015 14:36 utc | 54

Noirette @50
Yes, that is a great interview. A must read. And his insights into how the Euro Group works dovetails so well with the #itsacoup protest.
=
Interestingly, Yves often pointed to Yanis’ description of GRexit as a “disaster” without any reflection or analysis. What exactly did he mean by that? I think he meant a disaster for BOTH Greece and the EU/EZ. And I think he was making a case, not forestalling an option.
Yves also criticized Greek leaders for not preparing for GRexit (capital controls, etc.) Now we can see that Yanis actually DID prepare (as much as he could).
=
What is being asked of Greece now is a total capitulation to more can-kicking. I really expected a better outcome. Yanis was right about issuing IOUs. Tsipras blinked on GRexit after obtaining the amazing OXI from the Greek people.
This might not be such a bad deal IF they had included debt restructuring. Instead, the document says that it will be considered after an assessment of the bailout program. I really thought that the whole point of the last 5 months was to get debt restructuring that would end the can-kicking and free Greece from debt peonage.
Perhaps, as I wrote above, there is some side-deal? I understand that the Troika doesn’t want to create any incentive for other countries (Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc.) to threaten an exit. But the actual language in the document is meaningless – it should’ve a MUCH stronger with a commitment to debt sustainability / social fairness / Eurozone norms / etc.
But its not over till its over. No doubt there are more twists and turns to come. In many ways Germany won has won this battle and lost the war. Greece will still be turmoil, the can gets more unwieldy with each kick, the British may be much less likely to join, Marie LePen’s support will grow with each tweet of #itsacoup, etc.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 13 2015 14:54 utc | 56

Eurozone is ready to explode, but probably not for the reasons you think

Posted by: nmb | Jul 13 2015 16:08 utc | 58

Noirette @53
“…But nor are they traitors. Seeing them as traitors is comfortable: all is explained by duplicity of two or more persons, dark plots…this is a shallow reading of the situation as a whole.”
What dark plots, that’s not included in any dictionary meaning of ‘traitor’? (Are you mixing ‘betrayal’ up with ‘conspiracy’?) Anyway, I really wish there were an alternative less incendiary descriptor, but no other word fits. And anyway, this was a life-and-death betrayal “of the Greek people” it’s literally going to kill many of them, so why soften or obscure what they (by ‘they’ I mean nearly all of Syriza, everyone who didn’t vote NO when the capitulation came to the Greek parliament) have done?
I thought they promised they wouldn’t submit to the apparent Troika last offer if the people said “NO,” and the people voted “NO” massively and resoundingly. And then they accept a much worse offer? Just because ‘bourgeois’ politicians do this all the time doesn’t mean we shouldn’t name what they’ve done accurately.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 16:17 utc | 60

I have learned the hard way in regards to coming to any final and definitive conclusions about how this recent Greek drama plays itself out. Given the myriad of variables involved, political, economic, geopolitical, this is as a fluid process as anything else occurring at this point in history. This point was well made by Greg hunter (at USA Watchdog) in his recent “Weekly wrap-up” report. He really drives home the point as to how crazy things are, and that there are too many things simultaneously happening, (the Greek drama, Chinese stock market volatility, the NY stock exchange shut down because of a “glitch”, the Ukrainian fiasco, etc.); then he shakes his head in bewilderment, pleading to his listening audience, “What the hell is going on?”
In answer to #57, this new tranche of a bail-out just adds significantly to the already gargantuan derivatives exposure that DeutschBank (and others) have to a financial monster that will eventually devour us all. Greece for a long time has been the proverbial “canary in the coal mine”. In that regard, i think this latest fiasco goes beyond politics and economics; It may well be the collapse of the entire capitalist system – or whatever else you want to call it. Whatever comes to replace it is anyone’s guess.

Posted by: bjmaclac | Jul 13 2015 17:18 utc | 62

From Zero Hedge:

Despite the euphoria in global equity markets, The FT’s Wolfgang Munchau – once one of the keenest euro enthusiasts – warns regime change is coming in Europe. The actions of the creditors has “destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union,” Munchau exclaims, fearing they have “demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order.” He concludes rather ominously, “we will soon be asking ourselves whether this new eurozone, in which the strong push around the weak, can be sustainable.”

The temporary financial order that the more powerful members of the EU have hoped to secure, comes at the expense of their own wellbeing, in the long run.
As for Tsipras and his Finance Minister, it seems that in their idealism to keep Europe whole, they have sacrificed Greece. But of course it runs deeper than that. In defense of Tsipras, it can be said that the dogged effort his government has made, since they came to power, has raised political consciousness in Greece, and in some of the more responsible minds of Europe. Moreover, this protracted political effort has laid bare the defects that may, in time, tear the whole Euro-based structure apart and put the political union in Europe in doubt.
I mostly agree with the assessments of Noirette and jackrabbit. Yet we have to consider what the reaction of the Greeks will be. It should be remembered that Syriza and the political upheaval that brought this talented party to power is not just about Prime Minister Tsipras. This new concession, made after a gruelling all night negotiation, described in the guardian as “mental waterboarding” of the Greek team, has to be approved in Athens. It has to be accepted by the people. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the deal will really go through, when Tsipras comes back home.
In a democracy (a real one) the leadership is not just constrained in action by the particular class they are risen from, as individuals, but they are also constrained by the changes that the public is either inhibited by, or liberated enough to make. Do not despair. Not yet. Democracy, when it exists, is fluid, and remains a process. The Greek people still have decisions to make.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 13 2015 17:41 utc | 64

paulmeli.. speaking of that, i noticed another 2 minute video – Stiglitz: “The U.S. will always pay its debt. Because it just prints the dollars.”
the usa can do that but greece can’t becuase they signed onto the euro and can’t pay there way out with dracma’s..
borrowing in a foreign currency is always a problem.. thus the genius of getting countries to join the euro and borrow in euros!!!

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 17:47 utc | 66

My suspicion is that reason Schaeuble was convinced to withdraw his proposal, that is, the “temporary Grexit”, was because Tspiras was indeed stubborn enough to oppose Grexit (temporary or not) in the European Court of Justice–where the court might be induced to make rulings unfavorable to the current Troika setup. Merkel, Hollande, and the Big Wigs have taken precautions to see that Tsipras doesn’t approach the court with proceedings that could touch on the fairness or lawfulness of the current arrangements.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 13 2015 18:14 utc | 68

typo: I was responding to dh @ 66

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 13 2015 18:25 utc | 70

borrowing in a foreign currency is always a problem.. thus the genius of getting countries to join the euro and borrow in euros!!!

Exactly, that’s why Goldman cooked the books to get Greece in the euro!

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 18:40 utc | 72

Goldman Sachs and Greece;
Good to re-read it again:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels

Posted by: Yul | Jul 13 2015 19:00 utc | 74

This puts it rather well:

Varoufakis said that Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister and the architect of the deals Greece signed in 2010 and 2012, was “consistent throughout”. “His view was ‘I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous [Greek] government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything.
“So at that point I said ‘Well perhaps we should simply not hold elections anymore for indebted countries’, and there was no answer.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/yanis-varoufakis-merkels-control-over-eurogroup-absolute-they-are-beyond-law
Greece had an election, and then a referendum. This new “deal” is illegitimate. And should be treated that way. By everyone who understands what “right” means.
The adults in the room here and at NC can wring hands all you like. You do not sit still for a dissolution of national sovereignty, and that’s what you’re recommending in so many words. It’s war, it always was war, and it’s long past the time it should be treated as such.
Middle finger, nationalize banks, issues IOUs, align with whoever you deem to be a friend, and remake the world in the process.

Posted by: bksalt | Jul 13 2015 19:40 utc | 76

Warren Buffet, Bush Family, Soros, Kochs, the WalMarts, Bezos, and all the billionaires in the billionaire boys club will buy (steal) those Greek islands. They’ve lusted after them for years.

Posted by: fast freddy | Jul 13 2015 20:01 utc | 78

Looks like armed rebellion and guerrilla war may soon be the only choices left to the Greeks.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 13 2015 20:35 utc | 80

chris m @42
TZ…..always timely.

Posted by: notlurking | Jul 13 2015 21:19 utc | 82

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece

“Otto, also spelled Otho (Greek: Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867), was a Bavarian prince who became the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London. He reigned until his deposition in 1862.
The second son of King Ludwig I of Bavaria, Otto ascended the newly created throne of Greece while still a minor. His government was initially run by a three-man regency council made up of Bavarian court officials. Upon reaching his majority, Otto removed the regents when they proved unpopular with the people and he ruled as an absolute monarch. Eventually his subjects’ demands for a Constitution proved overwhelming and in the face of an armed but peaceful insurrection, Otto granted a constitution in 1843. However he rigged elections using fraud and terror.
Throughout his reign, Otto was unable to resolve Greece’s poverty and economic meddling from outside powers. The politics of Greece of this era was based on affiliations with the three Great Powers, and Otto’s ability to maintain the support of the powers was key to his remaining in power. To remain strong, Otto had to play the interests of each of the Great Powers’ Greek adherents against the others, while not aggravating the Great Powers. When Greece was blockaded by the (British) Royal Navy in 1850 and again in 1854, to stop Greece from attacking the Ottoman Empire during the Crimean War, Otto’s standing amongst Greeks suffered. As a result, there was an assassination attempt on the Queen and finally, in 1862, Otto was deposed while in the countryside. He died in exile in Bavaria in 1867.”

In short this is a modern history of Greece.
“Otto was unable to resolve Greece’s poverty and economic meddling from outside powers.” Some thing will never change.
Now, instead of Ottos, white liberals-bourgeois invented compradore class. People like Tspiras and “Western educated” academics who are, “rational, peaceful, liberal, logical” (E. Said). But they ability to change and resolve a societal problems are next to nothing, only in sphere of speculation such as the Game Theory.

Posted by: neretva’43 | Jul 13 2015 23:28 utc | 84

@fairleft #32
I was sorry to see FDL reduced to what it is too, even though I rarely went or posted there anymore so I can’t really complain.
There was some good stuff–David Dayan, Marcy Wheeler, and so on. And it was nice to chat with some of the folks on MyFdl from time to time. Imho, it wasn’t that the site got more pwogressive, but that it never really grew from its role as a critic of the bush admin to any sort of critical analysis of not only Obama, but neoliberalism at large. I think it tried to some extent, and I think that’s where most posters’ sympathies seemed to be, but it just never made the transition.

Posted by: sleepy | Jul 14 2015 0:39 utc | 86

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/uk-eurozone-greece-idUKKBN0P40FR20150713
“The Greek leader had to drop his opposition to a full role for the International Monetary Fund in the next bailout, which Merkel had insisted on to win parliamentary backing in Berlin.”
To me the proof that Washington is behind all this, and the Germans are just servants of the most brutal regime in history.

Posted by: neretva’43 | Jul 14 2015 1:13 utc | 88

@3 and 9…
Steve Kken wrote a blessedly short piece on this in Forbes a couple of weeks back:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevekeen/2015/06/18/are-surpluses-normal/
It’s called the “household analogy” fallacy when applied to sovereign issuers.
And yes, it basically means that the vast majority of people are simply “pre-Copernican” in their understanding of
economics, most notably the vast majority of economists.
Specifically with regard to the EU one of the smartest proponents of this line of reasoning – called Modern Monetary Theory or Soft Currency Economics – Warren Mosler, gave an incredibly valuable analysis of the EU here:
http://youtu.be/0YhrtktLQQw

Posted by: Oddlots | Jul 14 2015 3:55 utc | 90

Not sure if anyone’s posted this, its an interview with Varoufakis and there’s nothing in it that suggests Greece is headed in a positive direction:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 14 2015 4:23 utc | 92

This is what the American antiwar.com Libertarians are putting out on the Greeks. They seem to be singing in harmony with the Germans, although I didn’t get past the first paragraph. At least they are antiwar. That puts them ahead of the pwogs.

Posted by: jfl | Jul 14 2015 7:28 utc | 94

Resistance still coalescing. Strikes and demonstrations on Tuesday and Wednesday. Show us what you got, Greece!

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 14 2015 8:38 utc | 96

Considering recent events and the sellout of Greek sovereignty
to foreign powers (the EU,ECB,IMF, etc), that technically speaking there is a
reasonable case could be made that Alexis Tsipras is guilty of treason

Posted by: chris m | Jul 14 2015 10:10 utc | 98

4
Noirette, you of all people on MoA musthe surely recognize the Controller Opposition. It’seems in all the Western media, the same talking points false ‘debate’, the ‘good cop, bad cop’, Tsipras the ‘good cop’ who can’take defeat the hooligans downtown.
This obvious charade is like watching Newman and Redford play the parts of Tsipras and Legarde in this modern version of The Sting, just the EU Banking Cartel and the GR Mil.Gov Cartel swindling the world’s workers and taxpayers.
Tsipras and Syriza are no different than Poroshenko and his party. One wages war on Russian caste, the other wages war on the unions and the pensioners caste, …doubly-ironic, because Mil-Gov is a union with pensions, ripping theirs from ours.
The largest and longest continously move able swindle in the history of Civilization.
Oh, I just love Tsipras, he’said so handsome! Why, he would never hurt a fly!
Reee, reee, reee~!!!

Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 14 2015 12:12 utc | 100