Greece: Schaeuble's Track
by Harm Bengen
Posted by b on July 12, 2015 at 14:37 UTC | Permalink
next page »@1 ab initio.. tier 2 democracy after the banking system gets it's say first.. imf, world bank are just vehicles to keep the economic elite in power.. you can have democracy only if it doesn't jeopardize any of that!
Posted by: james | Jul 12 2015 16:33 utc | 2
http://www.notesonthenextbust.com/2015/07/a-union-of-deflation-and-unemployment.html
On Twitter recently, someone posted that anyone who doesn’t understand the importance of the difference between a sovereign money supply and a non-sovereign money supply does not understand economics. I wholeheartedly agree with this. And the majority of comments I see on articles about the Greek situation confirms that most people don’t understand economics. I don’t even know where to begin with criticisms of the idea of a shared currency without shared government. There are three main problems:
Problem 1: It is very easy to get into debt: A country in the Euro has no control of its monetary policy. Therefore when Greece had negative real interest rates during the boom time, there was nothing it could do to prevent people borrowing money. When added to a government also borrowing to appease special interests, this can be disastrous. But Spain had this problem even whilst running government budget surpluses. A country in the Euro has very little control over fiscal policy due to the rules determining how much governments can borrow and save. So even if a government wanted to combat loose monetary policy with correctly tight fiscal policy, it couldn’t.
Problem 2: Once in debt is impossible to get out of debt: There are three main ways a government has historically gotten out of debt. The first is economic growth; a growing economy means that debt to GDP ratios go down as GDP rises. The second is inflation; if a government’s debt gets too large it can always resort to the printing press to help it out. The third is outright default.
Problem 3: After both of these are realized, economic growth becomes very difficult: Governments, chastened by the experience of Greece and knowing that they are effectively borrowing in a foreign currency, can not borrow much more. A sovereign nation would have no problem issuing 150 or 200% debt to GDP. The central bank would support them and they would know that real interest rates could not get too high. Not so a borrower of a foreign currency.
I think I show three things here:
• The only policy a country can follow if it wants to avoid debt crisis is to run a current account surplus.
• This leads to a policy of internal devaluation and deflation.
• This creates a positive feedback mechanism which leads to a spiral of deflation and unemployment.
This is true certainly as long as Germany insists on low inflation and trade surpluses but possibly anyway, just by the nature of the riskiness of sovereign borrowing. I would like to hereby offer my humble advice to the leaders in Europe; now is the time to give up on this unworkable idea before it becomes even more of a disaster.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 16:33 utc | 3
What Greece needs is a default within the Euro. They will not get it this time either, I suppose. somebody at 102 in open thread.
No, of course not.
I see on the live news at the Guardian that there is a lot of talk of ‘lost trust’, ‘breach of trust’ and ‘conditionalities’ (meaning, if the Greeks make promises how can we be sure that they will be fulfilled, what are the ‘conditions’..)
This is a last ditch measure to get rid of the interlocutor. You negotiate (or pretend to), refuse to hear the other side, the propositions or what not, negate or side-step, quibble, throw accusations about, muddle everything, you let the situation run on, nothing gets done. The French call this la stratégie du pourrissement (deterioration, but pourri means rotten). Then once your opposing party capitulates, you say: Well sorry that isn’t enough, you will have to sacrifice more.
And when they accept that, in utter despair, you stab them in the back, and tell them you can’t trust them to abide by the deal, conditions, whatever.
Forbes outlines the German (Schauble I presume) plan for ‘taking over Greece’ according to one of the latest German proposals.
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12 2015 16:49 utc | 4
Not sure it has been posted on MoA before.
"Why Greece cannot be bailed out"
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CIb4AMuWUAAQyts.mp4
(yet another stupid lol cat video)
Posted by: Mina | Jul 12 2015 17:49 utc | 5
> ab initio at 1.
Finnish + other EU / Euro countries tax payers won’t pay for greek debt. (See okie’s post as well) but follow along..
A simple chart from le Figaro in F, 26 June, one of the better ones, top of Goog, comprehensible imho.
It shows the bulk of the debt is lodged at the The EFSF, European Financial Stability Facility, founded May 2010. All decent articles will state the same, or cite the ESM.
The EFSF is a *Private Company* under *Luxemburg* law. It flogs low-yield bonds. The investors are Central Banks/Gvmts/Sovereign Funds (30%), Banks (40%), Fund managers, Pension funds, and private. 50% in the Euro Area, next Asia (Nomura and Daiwa are bank partners), next UK and Switzerland.
It is often confused with the ESM - European Stability Mechanism, founded Sept. 2012, an inter-governmental institution under International Law.
If the ESM is or not an EU institution is hard to say (there *is* text in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union - the amendement was specifically designed to exclude the possibility of a referendum) though its scope of action is European (geographical) and its members are all Euro currency countries. Its investors resemble those of the EFSF, bonds are low-yield.
I could not figure out the relationship between the two (imho the ESM it to take over the EFSF but that hasn’t been done yet?), it is all very confused, deliberately so imho.
Those who will ‘pay’, i.e. absorb some financial losses - not garnering the ‘interest’ they counted on (they took that risk), on the face of it, thus, are these bondholders.
There is a knot (I’m not in finance, so please correct if, this is only from looking things up wiki like) it appears (very unclear, see links) that the members of the ESM (to treat only that for the mo) are at the same time the guarantees for these bonds, they can be forced to stump up to compensate losses. These bonds have a TOPTOP rating, are considered super-safe. Because, I suppose, of that guarantee. See Pension funds buying...
So in a sense you are right, as the Gvmts. are the end of the line on the hook, but it there is many a slip betwix the cup and the lip, and an Exit of the Euro changes the situation (imho.)
ESM site
http://www.esm.europa.eu/index.htm
:) click to see something you have never seen before on the internet (text 3 lines), the Disclaimer on the ESM site:
http://www.esm.europa.eu/investors/disclaimer.htm
an anti-ESM article (see also vid at top in German Eng subs)
Addendum. The Troika (ECB, IMF, European Commission) decides what program (IMF, ESM, etc., what conditions, reforms, etc.) will be implemented, so far for Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Cyprus, and Greece. These are NOT the creditors, they are the decisionary / supervisory board. They may however also be financially involved (yikes.)
Confused? So am I. The shame is the real structures are kept under cover, or layered into arcane, obfuscating guff, misdirection. Finns think they have to pay for bouzouki CDs and Retsina for Greeks so they can party while they shiver, argh.
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12 2015 18:31 utc | 6
b, Raúl Ilargi Meijer over at Automatic Earth agrees with you:
http://www.theautomaticearth.com/2015/07/tsipras-invites-schauble-to-fall-into-his-own-sword/
...Tsipras has done a great job at playing the other side of the table off against each other. So much so, it doesn’t even have to have been intentional, and it still works out great. He’s exposed the entire EU structure as a bag of bones, let alone a naked emperor.
...Tsipras has known forever that for Greece to stay inside the eurozone was a losing proposition. But he never had the mandate. Well, after Schäuble’s antics last night, (Schäuble snapped at Draghi last night: ”Do you hold me for a fool?”) that mandate has come a lot closer.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 19:04 utc | 7
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 12, 2015 2:31:16 PM | 5
You are requested to ensure that you are legally authorized to access this site. By clicking "I agree" below, you represent that you [...] Are not physically present in the United States of America or a "U.S. person" as defined in Regulation S under the U.S. Securities Act of 1933, as amended."
O my goodness! What tempting nuggets would be thereafter revealed?
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12 2015 19:15 utc | 8
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12, 2015 12:33:40 PM | 3: "I would like to hereby offer my humble advice to the leaders in Europe; now is the time to give up on this unworkable idea before it becomes even more of a disaster."
Who says Germany wants to avoid a Greek debt "crisis"?
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12 2015 19:20 utc | 9
re okie farmer @ 3
To add to your spot-on post (if everyone read Bill Mitchell this lack of understanding would change fast), in order for any economy to grow, it's money supply has to grow…spending (GDP) can't be increased (in the real world) without printing more money, because very little of the money we have (savings) ever gets spent. For every dollar someone spends, someone else is saving two. There is no 'circulation' per se without some entity (almost always the government) forcing money through the system.
The conventional wisdom that 'printing' money (government spending) is harmful or inflationary is so much nonsense yet it seems to have been internalized by 95% of the World's population.
Without money 'printing' we would all be living like the Amish. I will take inflation over deflation any day. Our last 'liberal' President, Richard Nixon, (in public investment terms) believed the ideal level of inflation was 4% per year…now, we target 2%.
Greece's money supply is 'draining' away towards it's trading partners…Greece's borrowing is funding them. Good luck to them as they drain one economy after another in the Eurozone. When one player in a poker game ends up with all the money at the table, the game is over.
Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 12 2015 19:25 utc | 10
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12, 2015 3:04:36 PM | 6
Well, Illargi's analysis agrees with my own. And I agree with him that too many have been influenced by Troika-friendly MSM that has done a fantastic job turning the knife by painting the Greeks as profligate, Syriza as incompetent, and Tsipras as a betrayer. The message: Greeks MUST do whatever the Troika asks and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool or worse.
As I've outlined in Greek posts of the last few days, even those who should know better (like Yves Smith) have fallen in with this mantra.
Instead, the Greeks held firm to their pro-EU and anti-austerity positions and forced the issue to the EU-wide political level. In the process they have gained powerful friends (US, France, Italy, etc.) and will likely win a much more favorable outcome than if they had quiely succumbed to the Troika in February (Yves preferred course).
* Debt restructuring is now "on the table" and Europe recognizes that they will have to help if there is any GRexit, instead of making an example of Greece.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 12 2015 20:18 utc | 11
Greece fiscal sovereignty surrender is demanded by elite European terrorists. But these terrorists wear nice suits.
The fourth Reich is showing its fangs a lot more now more now.
Because Merkel and other poorly concealed fascists elite in Europe posing as Democrats, they are even more pissed off about weak democratic resistance in Greece where they haven't out right surrendered yet.
because of that resentment of human independence, she now demands The Greek government handover Greeces fiscal control as part of a worsening debt slavery deal.
These terror elite freaks a super pissed and want to drive Greece into the fucking dirt as an example, and as punishment for not being willing slaves.
Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 20:44 utc | 12
I'd like to take Tsipras fishing, he's so patient in waiting as the Troika finishes building its own scaffold and tying its noose! For almost a month now, the Greeks have had an out--Most of the debt's been determined to be odious and just needs to be officially declared as thus formally. Zip!! There's a massive haircut!! And there's nothing the Troika can do about it except to withhold liquidity for Greek banks. If it does, then Tsipras will trump them by saying so-long to the EU, Eurozone and NATO, while adding insult to injury by refinancing its debt through the other resources offered.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12 2015 21:11 utc | 13
'This is a coup'
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-33497309
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 21:18 utc | 14
@13:
- Interesting proposal: Greece could temporarily leave the Eurozone. Although Greece doesn't have to. They could give each saver a "haircut" of say 30%. That's a devaluation as well.
I disagree with the cartoon. Circumstances already have taken a turn for the worst. Even WITH or WITHOUT the politicians.
Posted by: Willy2 | Jul 12 2015 21:27 utc | 15
Seems obvious now ( if it wasn't already ) that debt slavery isn't just about asset theft and depredations, it's about smaller nation state surrender to ongoing long term domination by larger states.
Since war is currently unacceptable, then financial war is widely accpected by the vast majority of the people in the West, when it West on West wars.
Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 21:34 utc | 16
To Tom @15: The US degenerated to become the TBTF debtor. Of course it would sink to perpetual asset theft and depredation. The neoliberalized world follows.
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12 2015 22:03 utc | 17
"For every dollar someone spends, someone else is saving two."
oops.
Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 12 2015 22:16 utc | 18
TRNN BRICS Development Bank, neoliberal, with a comment on Greece
https://youtu.be/2imOfILmxzg
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 12 2015 22:44 utc | 19
Germany talking heavy. That's not going to go down well. Either you make of the Eurozone a fiscal unity, whereby Germany is forced to help out other areas, as in the US. Or you let them go, and suffer the losses implied in a Greek default.
Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 12 2015 23:10 utc | 21
All this " trust" talk is fucking bullshit.
So, for the last 5 years that the terrorist troika and EU states knew that Greece couldn't pay off it's fraudulently induced and locally corrupt debt, but kept lending it to them anyway so to steal and impoverish them with near zero real fightback, because they trusted there would be no fightback.
Weaken and then conquer is the plan.
The European Evil elite "trusted" all those years of stealing from Greece and starving their people to death with much resistance, but since the democratic vote, now trust is an issue?!?!?! After 5 years of un-payable debt loaded on with endless amount of more un-payable debt......yeah right.
It's obvious, but unsaid of course, that the real lack of trust, is a lack of trust of full Greek surrender to their slave masters in the EU. So that "trust" PR bullshit ( which will work on the majority of people in the West ) will be used to try get general support and to force Greece to hand over their economic sovereignty, which is no sovereignty at all, but an atempt at forced surrender to domination-ists.
Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 23:44 utc | 22
That "locally" corrupt - meaning those responsibly Corrupt Greek; politicians, elite, military and bureaucracy.
Posted by: tom | Jul 12 2015 23:46 utc | 23
"O my goodness! What tempting nuggets would be thereafter revealed?"
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 12, 2015 3:15:31 PM | 7
I clicked it, its just a bunch of pornography. Weird.
Avery: (Avery Screams)
Avery: Avery Screams
Yasmin: (Yasmin Screams)
Yasmin: Yasmin Screams
Sasha: (Sasha Screams)
Sasha: Sasha Screams
Jade: (Jade Screams)
Jade: Jade Screams
Cloe: (Cloe Screams)
Cloe: Cloe Screams
Yasmine: (Yasmine Screams)
Yasmine: Yasmine Screams
Chloe: (Chloe Screams)
Chloe: Chloe Screams
Mary Jane: (Mary Jane Screams)
Mary Jane: Mary Jane Screams
Emma Roberts: (Emma Screams)
Emma Roberts: Emma Screams
Julia Roberts: (Julia Screams)
Julia Roberts: Julia Screams
Emma Stone: (Emma Screams)
Emma Stone: Emma Screams
Julie Roberts: (Julie Screams)
Julie Roberts: Julie Screams
Julia Lescova: (Julia Screams)
Julia Lescova: Julia Screams
Julie Stiles: (Julie Screams)
Julie Stiles: Julie Screams
Tom@21
The use of this old code word 'trust' caught my attention also. The Good Germans are just warning everyone that the clever and treacherous Greek Communists are unreliable as are all non-Capitalists or even dissenters and especially resistors of the NWO.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jul 13 2015 0:18 utc | 27
@8/16 comrade x... exactly... many folks still haven't figured that out..
@3 okie.. not a bad overview.. missing lots, but a good start... to say the whole financial world at this point is one giant ponzi scheme is not a stretch of my imagination..
@9 paulmeli..that is true so long as your currency is the world currency, or a part of the basket of currencies that hold this special sort of status until they don't.. the usa has been allowed to do this in exchange for china holding the bag.. that is just one example of the relationships going on.. these types of games that many other countries aren't privy to.. greece is one of them.. canada would be another for example.. all of it is run thru various ''world'' agencies like the imf and world bank.. you either play along with their game, or you have a financial sanction gun to your head.. see russia, iran, iraq, and others for recent examples.. all classic bullshit from the demons/elites running world finance at present..
Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 1:07 utc | 28
@23
I'd imagine your machine has now been 'compromised' by an NSA TAO unit? They're 'legal' - according to the new, executive 'policies' that've replaced the constitution - because you said you're not a 'US person' or in the USA? That's their story and they're stickin' to it.
Looks like the NAZI warlords in Ukraine are fighting among themselves, and are in turn threatening the unelected government there ... and attacks on Donbass are picking up as well. The Chinese have had their dictator client in Thailand return 109 Uighurs to China ... the Chinese claim that among them were a contingent headed to Turkey as ISIS recruits. Who knows what the CIA has been doing in Xinjiang. Who knows what the Chinese have been doing in Xinjiang. Germany has lost its mind ... or its 'mind' is taking control of its body - again. Greece, Ukraine, Syria-Iraq-Yemen ... it's an imperialist press on all fronts simultaneously? or they've lost control on all fronts simultaneously. Hard to follow and hard to imagine the outcome of all this ... more death, devastation, and destruction for sure - financial where it's not immediate flesh and blood. No more pretense. The empire must be at the end of its rope?
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 2:03 utc | 29
jfl @28: "hard to imagine the outcome of all this". Not hard to see it's an ongoing strategy of chaos and destabilization. In a capitalist crisis, the goal is to sabotage your competitors before they beat you.
Same bullshit here.
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 13 2015 3:03 utc | 30
james @ 2: " you can have democracy only if it doesn't jeopardize any of that!"
Yep!
Posted by: ben | Jul 13 2015 3:53 utc | 31
"Who knows what the CIA has been doing in Xinjiang. "
There is a large and propagandized population in Northern Virginia, especially in the environs near Langley. They do political work around the country and especially in DC, they seem like a little lobbying group. I've seen "Uighur Genocide" t-shirts and ridiculous things like that. The quote I've heard: "we're treated worse than Palestinians". Whoa! Who does it sound like wrote that line? I hadn't heard of China bombing Xinjiang with F-16s or anything else lately, though I have heard of a whole lot of bombs going off targeting the Han Chinese. Typical USA story - up is down, down is up.
It's exactly the fraudulent history page from the Ukraine playbook. Its disgusting the way the USA is twisting history all over the world. Its vile. Its like they're attempting to establish a whole new era where they'll write all that came before to their own benefit. If it sounds very "1984" then I think you're probably getting the right idea.
In terms of genocide, of course any thinking person has to conclude that the Russians and Chinese are pikers compared to the US Americans who are the genocide professionals - if they weren't there wouldn't be a Uighur or a Ukrainian left (or maybe a few on some scattered reservations). The USAians are so good, they've even got your average midwestern American like WayOutWest cheering on the foul bloodletting and genocide of ISIS. And this, ladies and gentlemen of the world, are the "liberals"!
Make no mistake, the US are bringing a huge number exiles here and filling their heads with all kinds of complete bullshit, for the same purpose they've always used the exile communities: war abroad, and when needed, war at home (just ask the Kennedy's).
I don't know when it happened, but my.firedoglake.com is dead. I think Jane Hamsher went bankrupt? The site went bankrupt politically back in 2010 when it became a site of pro-single-payer advocacy and then those people were disappeared and myFDL got in line with its 'pwoggie' Dem Party masters. Still, it was a place to post, there were several interesting and responsive stragglers deviating from the party line, and Kevin Gosztola was always worth reading. Is there any active place to post my obviously now rare full scale posts?
I really want to comment on and compliment the following piece by Eric Zuesse: How Fascist Capitalism Functions: The Case of Greece. It's a great explanation of what happened with all the money loaned to Greece, and in particular WHO BENEFITS/BENEFITED. It's by now an old story, bailing out the investors who made bad bets, but one deliberately excluded from the mainstream perspective, which blames 'the Greeks'.
My _only_ criticism at this point is the word 'fascist', which is meaningless in practical terms, and generally miscommunicates and 'trolls' whether that's the intention or not. What Zuesse _really_ means, I think, is "aristocratic capitalism," and he uses aristocracy/aristocratic several times in his piece.
Aristocratic Capitalism is exactly what we have to deal with these days, and of course the fact that the aristocracy (or a subset, oligarchy) controls the mainstream echo chamber media (and increasingly the related intellectual/academic support structure) in nearly every country. Especially and most importantly in Greece.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 5:47 utc | 33
guest77 @31: The nationalist Uighurs -- in a state/region that for many centuries has been multi-ethnic, with a sizeable percentage of Han Chinese (see Wikipedia before it is taken over by the usual suspects) -- are part of the CIA effort to block the China-Pakistan-Iran economic corridor.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 6:01 utc | 34
@31 @33
I have no doubt the CIA is using the Uighurs ... as it used/uses the Chechens. The Plutocrats' Republic claimed that about 20 of the 109 'returned' to them by their Thai toadies were on their way to Turkey to join the ISIS ... but what about the other 89? If the ISIS 'job' looks good to you that says quite a bit about your current situation and surroundings.
The Chinese practically invented imperialism, and I've seen their treatment of the Tai people in Yunnan in person - including the desecrated wats and other remnants of the Cultural Revolution. I believe their mistreatment of the Tibetans and Uighurs is worse. So I wonder still, despite your assertions and assurances, what's up in Xinjiang.
While tactically the Russians and Chinese are standing up to the empire ... it's not as though butter won't melt in their mouths. Russia still is an empire, and China is as intent on global hegemony as is the US, albeit of the proverbial 'kinder and gentler' variety, and without the black and white 'with us or agin us' mind (? I guess the medula is a part of the brain) set. I don't think that either one has much more tolerance for actual democracy than the US ... maybe Russia, certainly not the Plutocrats' Republic.
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 7:32 utc | 35
@32 fairleft.. you could always post in the open threads that b creates.. other then that - i dunno!
Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 7:58 utc | 36
So a horrific deal, much worse than the Greek people rejected by a 61% vote, got done. Thanks a f#ckin lot Syriza and Tsipras and all the new symbols of austerity in Greece. Deeper poverty, shortened lifespans, hunger, geezers working hard, physical working-class jobs till they're 67 unless they die early living in a bare bones and privatized healthcare system.
German purist wailing was pushed aside as we all sorta expected (right?), and the Wall Street and the Western aristocracy 'austerity for everyone except us' overall plan continues to rule. That German a-hole Schnauble (sp?) seemed near to rescuing Greece's bottom 90% and Syriza's left credibility, but Jack Lew said no. And Wall Street's word is law.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 8:09 utc | 37
jfl @34: I generally agree, except it's confusing to rename China 'the plutocrats' republic', since there are many examples of such and better, I suppose. The ideal outcome in the battle between China/Russia and the West is a balanced face-off that allows space and support for democratic sovereignty and economic prosperity. Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.
I also think China simply is at a different capitalist stage, and is more strongly state-directed for overall state/military goals, than is the West, which is deep into financial sector dominated capitalism. China's motives are certainly not pure, but economic development of the sort they are promoting is absolutely good for workers in general and for Pakistan, Iran, the central Asian nations, and to name a few.
In the long run China will likely become a pro-austerity financialist a-hole, but that's hopefully for the workers to decide.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 8:20 utc | 38
Greece is a pawn in a US - German struggle.
The New York financial community has facilitated the club med lending spree in the 1990s by insuring all this debt through AIG CDSs.
The express purpose was to make a killing while breaking Germany and/or enforcing a Soviet EU. In 2008/09 German / French taxpayers were duly forced to bail out AIG.
When macro adjustments were beginning to show progress Syriza was sent in to prolong the problem. See Wayne Madsens article on the Varoufakis Soros link.
The German MSM is full of anti Greece venom which is a good indicator of what our Imperial overlords want to see.
The Germans are trying to work this out just like they were trying to work out another loosing proposition: the Allied reparations scam after 1919.
Mentally the Germans are neither capable of writing off the 1,000 bn euros they have sunk into Target/ESM nor of devaluing the ideological capital they have invested into "Vereinigtes Europa".
So when Greece is "fixed" the ratings downgrades will start flying for Portugal, Spain, Italy.
Posted by: Christoph | Jul 13 2015 9:33 utc | 39
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955
Donald Tusk: "After 17 hours of negotiations we have reached agreement"
Eurozone leaders have reached agreement over a third Greek bailout after marathon talks in Brussels.
EU chairman Donald Tusk said leaders agreed "in principle" on negotiations for the bailout, "which in other words means continued support for Greece".
Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said that after a "tough battle", Greece had secured a "growth package" of €35bn (£25bn), and won debt restructuring.
Greece will now have to pass reforms demanded by the eurozone by Wednesday.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 9:48 utc | 40
Eurozone and Greece reach Bailout Deal
Put it to a referendum!
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 10:10 utc | 41
@37
'it's confusing to rename China 'the plutocrats' republic' ... maybe, but it is run by plutocrats'. It's much more confusing to call China 'the peoples' republic', don't you agree? But that's what the Communist (choke) Party of China calls it.
So, you're looking forward to 'The ideal outcome ... Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.'
You're kidding, right?
Luckily you can't go back in time, but if you did ... you're old enough to remember? ... you'd bump into a lot of things you've forgotten about. The Vietnam War, gas guzzlers, wall-to-wall-propaganda on both sides, geopolitics justifying anything ... and so forth. Hey, sounds like right now, doesn't it? I'm looking forward to an advance ... because it's essential. I realize it seems unlikely from here, but I'm certainly not looking forward to what does seem likely from here. More of same ... until it proves terminal.
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 10:28 utc | 42
reminds me of the episode from the Twilight Zone
"Nervous Man in a Four Dollar Room" originally aired on October 14, 1960 on CBS.
Jackie Rhoades (played by Joe Mantell) =Alexis Tsipras
George (played by William D. Gordon) =one of those Euro guys.
Funny, it didnt end this way in the film
(Closing narration: "Exit Mr. John Rhoades, formerly a reflection in a mirror, a fragment of someone else's conscience, a wishful thinker made out of glass but now made out of flesh, and on his way to join the company of men. Mr. John Rhoades, with one foot through the door and one foot out of the Twilight Zone.")
Posted by: chris m | Jul 13 2015 10:48 utc | 43
The Germans certainly didn't want this 'solution' ... but the US insisted on it ... wonder why ?
If the Fed Has Nothing to Hide, It Has Nothing to Fear
In 2010, as part of the Dodd-Frank bill, Congress authorized a one-time audit of the Federal Reserve’s activities during the financial crisis of 2008. The audit revealed that between 2007 and 2008 the Federal Reserve loaned over $16 trillion — more than four times the annual budget of the United States — to foreign central banks and politically-influential private companies.
I saw that $16,000,000,000,000 figure in a counterpunch article and followed the link. Poor Athena now plays Atlas with the weight of the whole fictional financial world on her shoulders.
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 10:58 utc | 44
All the noise last week came to nothing.. Tsipras finally accepted the harsh haircut for the Greeks..
Imagine how stupid all those Greeks that voted "no" feel now.. But one cannot blame Tsipras too much. I believe he was told(aka, threatened) to get in line or else!!!
This is how democracy works in the EU..Yes, they can vote and support their favorite party etc etc... But it means absolutely NOTHING. The people be damned!!!!
Posted by: Zico | Jul 13 2015 11:08 utc | 45
jfl @41 Let's go back what I wrote (emphasis added):
The ideal outcome in the battle between China/Russia and the West is a balanced face-off that allows space and support for democratic sovereignty and economic prosperity. Like we had to some extent during the USSR-USA face off.
Yes, many countries (The Nonaligned Movement) in those days (roughly 1945 to 1975) were able to find a space for sovereignty between the two giant hegemons, in part by playing them off against each other. This is not possible with a single dominant hegemon like the US. As for workers, most Western countries were initially frightened of the threat of Soviet Union inspired socialism and they therefore conceded some of their capitalist profits to workers, partly in the form of empowered unions. In the less developed world, both the Soviet Union and The West competed to showcase 'their' form of development, and such plans were more successful in those days than in this uniformly (with the exception of China) neoliberal anti-development development era.
None of the above analysis is unusual, none of it has to do with gas guzzlers and the Vietnam War, and none of it warrants an "Are you kidding" response.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 13:10 utc | 46
Zico @44:
But one cannot blame Tsipras too much. I believe he was told(aka, threatened) to get in line or else!!!
The too frequent excuse-making (unless you mean literally threatening to kill him and his family) misses the essential lesson of the capitulation: there was no threat worse than austerity. No matter what was said to him and his colleagues, it was Tsipras and friends' misunderstanding of fairly basic economics (that Grexit was likely to actually fairly quickly start to benefit the Greek economy and continued austerity is certain to damage and destroy the economy and the vast majority of people's lives) that made them capitulate. Or, they understand the basic economics and just like the benefits of being servants of foreign and domestic elites. I think the second is more likely. It's a classic problem in democracies where there are vast quantities of money available for politicians and media that suck up to the financial oligarchy.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 13:23 utc | 47
@44
Not stupid ... betrayed. They need to demand ... better, to conduct their own ... referendum on the 'deal' their 'representatives' made in the backroom.
This is not rocket science. All they/we need is two envelopes for each voter in each precinct.
One is the outer envelope identifying the voter and the other is blank, protecting the vote. The ballot is marked, placed in the inner, blank envelope and sealed; the inner, blank envelope is placed in the outer authenticating/authorizing envelope and sealed.
Two teams publicly count the vote. One team verifies and tallies the voters, opens the outer envelopes, and puts the inner envelopes containing the ballots back in the ballot box to be opened and counted by the second team.
The precinct tallies are posted and the ballots and both sets of envelopes are saved for inspection and recounts. Repeat in each precinct.
Let the tallies bubble up to district and province and national level. Publish linked spreadsheets with all the labeled sub-tallies and there you have it. Bottom-up voting. Bottom-up democracy. Works in Greece, works in Germany, works in Russia, works in China, works in the USA. The democratic behavior defines the democratic organism.
Who can argue with the voice of the people?
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 13:27 utc | 48
The only good news i see arriving from this debacle over the past 5 months
is that while the Greeks have buckled down in the face of the EU/ECB/IMF etc
is that it has only emboldened other eurosceptic politicians throughout rest of Europe
(particularly in France)
latest odds for next French President
Nicolas Sarkozy 2/1
Manuel Valls 3/1
Marine Le Pen 4/1
Posted by: chris m | Jul 13 2015 13:36 utc | 49
re james @ 27
Yes, I agree that is the gorilla in the room.
But a lot of the politics (and economics) is based on the notion that money is a scarce resource, so that myth must be done away with if we are to make progress. Politics doesn't trump arithmetic, but it can make it go horribly wrong.
There's a reason the theory of money systems is not allowed to be taught at any level in our education systems. Bernard Lietaer, one of the original architects of the Euro (he bailed early) tells a story of a conversation he had with Paul Krugman:
He was told to "never touch the money system' or he would be excluded from any chance of success or a Nobel in economics.
Krugman to Lietaer: "never touch the money system"
They're all in on the con.
Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 13 2015 13:38 utc | 50
Jack Rabbit at 10. I agree. Yanis V. and Tsipras walked into the shoot-out wearing shorts and flip-flops without a smoke bomb, or a rusty javelin, between them.
They lost.
I read some of Yves’ articles about this matter, naturally some of them though I couldn’t say which, along the ‘they are inexperienced, incompetent’ line hold, in a way. As I illustrated in my short ‘mock’ dialogue (some ways back.)
But…what did they have to bargain with? Nothing, except good will, counting on good faith, and rational economic arguments. They defused their one threat - no plan B - and as a pointed out before they are both Europhiles. For those who see them as traitors or stooges, they are of course products of their class, their background, Syriza’s past, Syriza’s instituted platform, the Greek situation, and their voters.
With hindsight, one might say their one potential threat, Grexit, would actually have suited Schauble (as this thread is about him), they could have teamed up together and *just possibly* managed an orderly Grexit.. together! Of course that ia switcheroo fantasy, and the 'debt' would have been an obstacle.
That would have saved Merkel’s bacon, and others (Finland, Slovenia..) would have been forced to shut up and agree! However as a political action that was impossible for Syriza - going to bed with the enemy. Plus, against the interests of the USA and the financial hegemons, who have certainly been active.
This interview of Yanis V. illustrates some of these points, well worth a read.
New Statesman 13 July http://tinyurl.com/opdx3wx
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 13 2015 13:48 utc | 51
@45
You're right, a multi-centered hegemony is better than a global hegemony. And maybe we won't be trading a universal US hegemony for a universal Chinese one. But in fact we don't even have a universal US/EU hegemony now. We'd have no wars if we did.
I am looking forward, though, to such a distribution of power, to us 'below', that hegemony becomes a thing of the past. That world wars become impossible, incomprehensible ... where would the people allow the requisite concentration of power that would enable such an occurrence? Perhaps you'd call it a mega-centered or giga-centered hegemony.
@46
I'm still of the opinion that it's a waste of time to blame the politicians for acting within their class constraints, just as it is a waste of time wishing the plutocrats would not act within theirs. We the people who have little left to lose are actually the least constrained of all, if only we'd realize it, pull up our sox, and take over. The problem is the (self-selected) 'middle class', who still feel they have something left to lose. But the plutocrats are steadily eliminating them, day by day.
Posted by: jfl | Jul 13 2015 13:49 utc | 52
@50:
... Yanis V. and Tsipras walked into the shoot-out wearing shorts and flip-flops without a smoke bomb, or a rusty javelin, between them.
A good example of the excuse-making! Please be specific, what specifically were the masters of finance wielding against 'heroic' but naive/unprepared Yanis and Tsipras?
"We're gonna make you GREXIT!!" That it?
But no economically literate person would scared by the one change that could end austerity. So what were they threatened with? Hit squads were going out to kill them and their families? I've heard these non-specific excuses constantly but it's always instantly mysterious on what the IMF/EU/Germans etc were gonna do if Tsipras/Yanis said, "Grexit, yeah, that's what we'll do unless you give us something better."
Again, the excuses obscure the real message: these guys are either money/power-corrupted traitors to the Greek people or they're economic idiots.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 13:56 utc | 53
A good example of the excuse-making! Please be specific, what specifically were the masters of finance wielding against 'heroic' but naive/unprepared Yanis and Tsipras? fairleft at 52
Nothing. They wielded nothing. (Until the end.. music…) They just sat and let them talk and ignored them and wore them down. (My mention of javelins etc. is maybe over the top but I can’t resist that kind of stuff.) They obfuscated, encouraged, and were stern, etc. They made no threats, they laid out the deal, the choices, take it or leave it. The masters of finance, as you call it, have no interest in Yanis or Tsipras, they are a temporary annoyance. However, to get them to capitulate, the ELA (and intl payments) were shut off.
That worked.
I don’t think they are heroes, fl, not at all. In fact I don’t like them much, that is just me. They are exactly the kind of political force - some might say upstarts - that arise in such a situation. And that ppl seem to adulate and believe in…But nor are they traitors. Seeing them as traitors is comfortable: all is explained by duplicity of two or more persons, dark plots…this is a shallow reading of the situation as a whole.
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 13 2015 14:36 utc | 54
So called agreement was "reached" 5 mn before markets open in Europe. Hard to buy...
Posted by: Mina | Jul 13 2015 14:47 utc | 55
Noirette @50
Yes, that is a great interview. A must read. And his insights into how the Euro Group works dovetails so well with the #itsacoup protest.
=
Interestingly, Yves often pointed to Yanis' description of GRexit as a "disaster" without any reflection or analysis. What exactly did he mean by that? I think he meant a disaster for BOTH Greece and the EU/EZ. And I think he was making a case, not forestalling an option.
Yves also criticized Greek leaders for not preparing for GRexit (capital controls, etc.) Now we can see that Yanis actually DID prepare (as much as he could).
=
What is being asked of Greece now is a total capitulation to more can-kicking. I really expected a better outcome. Yanis was right about issuing IOUs. Tsipras blinked on GRexit after obtaining the amazing OXI from the Greek people.
This might not be such a bad deal IF they had included debt restructuring. Instead, the document says that it will be considered after an assessment of the bailout program. I really thought that the whole point of the last 5 months was to get debt restructuring that would end the can-kicking and free Greece from debt peonage.
Perhaps, as I wrote above, there is some side-deal? I understand that the Troika doesn't want to create any incentive for other countries (Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc.) to threaten an exit. But the actual language in the document is meaningless - it should've a MUCH stronger with a commitment to debt sustainability / social fairness / Eurozone norms / etc.
But its not over till its over. No doubt there are more twists and turns to come. In many ways Germany won has won this battle and lost the war. Greece will still be turmoil, the can gets more unwieldy with each kick, the British may be much less likely to join, Marie LePen's support will grow with each tweet of #itsacoup, etc.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 13 2015 14:54 utc | 56
@ Noirette #5
It is often confused with the ESM - European Stability Mechanism, founded Sept. 2012, an inter-governmental institution under International Law.
This may give you the explanation:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/european-financial-stability-facility.asp
Posted by: Yul | Jul 13 2015 15:54 utc | 57
Eurozone is ready to explode, but probably not for the reasons you think
Posted by: nmb | Jul 13 2015 16:08 utc | 58
The way things have played out I don't see how anyone can conclude other than Syriza is a Western sponsored Color Revolution designed to intercept and turn the Greek lurch to the left.
Further evidence the US traded ETF for Greek stocks GREK NEVER STOPPED TRADING, someone knew the fix was in. The major players in Syriza also fit the pattern of being western educated ex-pats.
Posted by: mad1 | Jul 13 2015 16:09 utc | 59
Noirette @53
"...But nor are they traitors. Seeing them as traitors is comfortable: all is explained by duplicity of two or more persons, dark plots…this is a shallow reading of the situation as a whole."
What dark plots, that's not included in any dictionary meaning of 'traitor'? (Are you mixing 'betrayal' up with 'conspiracy'?) Anyway, I really wish there were an alternative less incendiary descriptor, but no other word fits. And anyway, this was a life-and-death betrayal "of the Greek people" it's literally going to kill many of them, so why soften or obscure what they (by 'they' I mean nearly all of Syriza, everyone who didn't vote NO when the capitulation came to the Greek parliament) have done?
I thought they promised they wouldn't submit to the apparent Troika last offer if the people said "NO," and the people voted "NO" massively and resoundingly. And then they accept a much worse offer? Just because 'bourgeois' politicians do this all the time doesn't mean we shouldn't name what they've done accurately.
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 13 2015 16:17 utc | 60
follow-up @55
I read the agreement in full and there is language about debt sustainability but it is still much weaker than it should be. Essentially, Greek efforts to increase their GDP are all for naught as any increase makes the debt more valid and the burden more "sustainable". It is debt peonage - made worse by the fact that the debt is odious.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 13 2015 16:29 utc | 61
I have learned the hard way in regards to coming to any final and definitive conclusions about how this recent Greek drama plays itself out. Given the myriad of variables involved, political, economic, geopolitical, this is as a fluid process as anything else occurring at this point in history. This point was well made by Greg hunter (at USA Watchdog) in his recent "Weekly wrap-up" report. He really drives home the point as to how crazy things are, and that there are too many things simultaneously happening, (the Greek drama, Chinese stock market volatility, the NY stock exchange shut down because of a "glitch", the Ukrainian fiasco, etc.); then he shakes his head in bewilderment, pleading to his listening audience, "What the hell is going on?"
In answer to #57, this new tranche of a bail-out just adds significantly to the already gargantuan derivatives exposure that DeutschBank (and others) have to a financial monster that will eventually devour us all. Greece for a long time has been the proverbial "canary in the coal mine". In that regard, i think this latest fiasco goes beyond politics and economics; It may well be the collapse of the entire capitalist system - or whatever else you want to call it. Whatever comes to replace it is anyone's guess.
Posted by: bjmaclac | Jul 13 2015 17:18 utc | 62
Please explain why, Christoph @ 38, if Varoufakis (and Syriza) are globalist's tools, he propagandizes against the Minotaur in America. Isn't it more likely that Varoufakis represents the good global capitalists against the America the hegemonster's bad capitalists? Could it be tolerably said that Germany aims to resist both of them?
Posted by: Comrade X | Jul 13 2015 17:28 utc | 63
From Zero Hedge:
Despite the euphoria in global equity markets, The FT's Wolfgang Munchau - once one of the keenest euro enthusiasts - warns regime change is coming in Europe. The actions of the creditors has "destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union," Munchau exclaims, fearing they have "demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order." He concludes rather ominously, "we will soon be asking ourselves whether this new eurozone, in which the strong push around the weak, can be sustainable."The temporary financial order that the more powerful members of the EU have hoped to secure, comes at the expense of their own wellbeing, in the long run.
As for Tsipras and his Finance Minister, it seems that in their idealism to keep Europe whole, they have sacrificed Greece. But of course it runs deeper than that. In defense of Tsipras, it can be said that the dogged effort his government has made, since they came to power, has raised political consciousness in Greece, and in some of the more responsible minds of Europe. Moreover, this protracted political effort has laid bare the defects that may, in time, tear the whole Euro-based structure apart and put the political union in Europe in doubt.
I mostly agree with the assessments of Noirette and jackrabbit. Yet we have to consider what the reaction of the Greeks will be. It should be remembered that Syriza and the political upheaval that brought this talented party to power is not just about Prime Minister Tsipras. This new concession, made after a gruelling all night negotiation, described in the guardian as "mental waterboarding" of the Greek team, has to be approved in Athens. It has to be accepted by the people. I could be wrong, but I don't think the deal will really go through, when Tsipras comes back home.
In a democracy (a real one) the leadership is not just constrained in action by the particular class they are risen from, as individuals, but they are also constrained by the changes that the public is either inhibited by, or liberated enough to make. Do not despair. Not yet. Democracy, when it exists, is fluid, and remains a process. The Greek people still have decisions to make.
@49 paulmeli.. yes - i agree.. they know the game and they have to play along..
Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 17:42 utc | 65
paulmeli.. speaking of that, i noticed another 2 minute video - Stiglitz: "The U.S. will always pay its debt. Because it just prints the dollars."
the usa can do that but greece can't becuase they signed onto the euro and can't pay there way out with dracma's..
borrowing in a foreign currency is always a problem.. thus the genius of getting countries to join the euro and borrow in euros!!!
Posted by: james | Jul 13 2015 17:47 utc | 66
@63 I think you are wrong. There may be a few amendment requests but the deal will be approved. Reluctantly.
Posted by: dh | Jul 13 2015 18:13 utc | 67
My suspicion is that reason Schaeuble was convinced to withdraw his proposal, that is, the "temporary Grexit", was because Tspiras was indeed stubborn enough to oppose Grexit (temporary or not) in the European Court of Justice--where the court might be induced to make rulings unfavorable to the current Troika setup. Merkel, Hollande, and the Big Wigs have taken precautions to see that Tsipras doesn't approach the court with proceedings that could touch on the fairness or lawfulness of the current arrangements.
@63 The point about amendment requests is moot, because Merkel and the rest of the Gang will accept no amendments whatsoever, and will respond to the very idea of amending the deal, with belligerence.
Will Tsipras allow this "deal" to be referendumed before it gets Parliamented? Perhaps the government will fall prior to either, ensuring default and Grexit?
There's no way I can pass judgment from the comfort of my home office on what happens next provided that meets the will of the majority of Greek citizens. The next 48 hours will be hectic to say the least.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 13 2015 18:30 utc | 71
borrowing in a foreign currency is always a problem.. thus the genius of getting countries to join the euro and borrow in euros!!!
Exactly, that's why Goldman cooked the books to get Greece in the euro!
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 18:40 utc | 72
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/world/europe/greece-debt-deal.html
Greece Deal Bridges, for Now, a Growing Rift in Europe
By STEVEN ERLANGER 9:14 AM ET
In the name of preserving European solidarity, the ultimatum put to Athens over the weekend required something close to the surrender of the nation’s sovereignty.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 18:59 utc | 73
Goldman Sachs and Greece;
Good to re-read it again:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels
Posted by: Yul | Jul 13 2015 19:00 utc | 74
james @ 65
The U.S. also prints the bonds, which are just pieces of paper representing dollars that pay interest.
Stiglitz still uses the term 'borrowing' although in practice it is a service, since no one would want to hold huge sums of cash that don't earn interest.
For Apple alone, with $175B in cash, it would take 700,000 FDIC-insured savings accounts to hold that much cash. There's only 6,800 banks in the FRBS.
That's why we issue bonds as 'debt'…as a convenience for rich folks. Up until the 1970's we taxed away a lot of that excess wealth. Now there's nowhere for it to go.
Posted by: paulmeli | Jul 13 2015 19:01 utc | 75
This puts it rather well:
Varoufakis said that Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister and the architect of the deals Greece signed in 2010 and 2012, was “consistent throughout”. “His view was ‘I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous [Greek] government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything.“So at that point I said ‘Well perhaps we should simply not hold elections anymore for indebted countries’, and there was no answer.
Greece had an election, and then a referendum. This new "deal" is illegitimate. And should be treated that way. By everyone who understands what "right" means.
The adults in the room here and at NC can wring hands all you like. You do not sit still for a dissolution of national sovereignty, and that's what you're recommending in so many words. It's war, it always was war, and it's long past the time it should be treated as such.
Middle finger, nationalize banks, issues IOUs, align with whoever you deem to be a friend, and remake the world in the process.
Posted by: bksalt | Jul 13 2015 19:40 utc | 76
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150713/1024572074.html
Sold! German Bank to Control, Sell Greek Public Assets
To save its crumbling economy, Greece was forced to hand over its public assets to an external fund controlled by a German bank, managed by Herr Wolfgang Schaeuble himself.
The fund is called the Institution for Growth and controlled by the German bank KfW, a German government-owned development bank based out of Frankfurt. Now this is where things get awkward: the current Chairman of the Institution for Growth is none other than Schaeuble himself.
The move may be interpreted as impinging on the sovereignty of Greece. However, what can the Mediterranean nation really do? The morale of the story is simple: bend to Germany's will, or your economy will be destroyed.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 13 2015 19:48 utc | 77
Warren Buffet, Bush Family, Soros, Kochs, the WalMarts, Bezos, and all the billionaires in the billionaire boys club will buy (steal) those Greek islands. They've lusted after them for years.
Posted by: fast freddy | Jul 13 2015 20:01 utc | 78
The present German harshness reminds me a lot of another historical event: the Treaty of Brest Litovsk, signed between the Germans and the Bolsheviks on March 3, 1918.
In the treaty, Bolshevik Russia ceded the Baltic States to Germany, .... It also recognized the independence of Ukraine. Russia also agreed to pay six billion German gold mark in reparations. Historian Spencer Tucker says, "The German General Staff had formulated extraordinarily harsh terms that shocked even the German negotiator." (Wiki)The Germans felt they deserved compensation for their sufferings in the war (WWI), and inflicted a brutal peace, which was of course voided by the Armistice of November 11, 1918, eight months later.
Is this sort of thing more a tendency among Prussians and other eastern Germans? Brest-Litovsk was the work of Hindenburg and Ludendorff, both easterners, as Fr. Merkel.
Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 13 2015 20:35 utc | 79
Looks like armed rebellion and guerrilla war may soon be the only choices left to the Greeks.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 13 2015 20:35 utc | 80
If this debt slavery deals are according to the Greek parliament is illegal and odious, then why does Tsipras and most of Syriza continue on with this treachery against the Greek people.
So really, That report only existed in the minds of those unprincipled freaks as a bargaining chip, which in the aftermath, seems like it wasn't used a bargining chip it all, since the criminal and immoral austerities gets worse and worse with complicity of all those Greek politicians that vote for it. What they are voting for, is misery impoverishment and death.
A crime against humanity is going to be voted for - how can you look at it any other way.
Exact same thing with the referendum. That wasn't an honest representation of the will of the Greek people by Syriza. That was a bargaining chip that was never used buy those quislings.
My vote goes to replace quisling with Tsipras.
Posted by: tom | Jul 13 2015 20:45 utc | 81
@ okie farmer | Jul 13, 2015 3:48:28 PM | 76
He, he, he...
That institution KfW has been for decades involved in “restructuring” of Bosnian economy, but I would say they are a followers not a leaders. Truly the leader is US AID extension, sometimes political and sometimes economic arm, of CIA. They invest what is worth and when they make profit they sell those companies and their shares to some bank (usually Austrians). In Serbia financial and insurance sector is taken by the French. See, like in the eve of WWI the same players carved the Balkan state according to old scripts, plus USA. Kfw just pick up the pieces. The story is there is no more economy, even butter and milk is imported from a Nazis. While...while, They are pitting ethnic communities against each other.
"Fascism is an open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, the most chauvinistic, the most imperialistic elements of the financial capital... Fascism is neither the government beyond classes nor the government of the petty bourgeois or the lumpen-proletariat over the financial capital. Fascism is the government of the financial capital itself. It is an organized massacre of the working class and the revolutionary slice of peasantry and intelligentsia. Fascism in its foreign policy is the most brutal kind of chauvinism, which cultivates zoological hatred against other peoples."
For those who do no know this there was fight between CIA and BND in Kosovo and CIA won, of course, the Germans are just pawn and joke. When they gain self-confidence they are slapped every time. I believe all the theater around Alexis Tsipras and Syriza is orchestrated by Washington.
I wish good luck to the Greeks but...Merchants of Death, Ante Portas. They haven't been realized that they only role and purpose is to be an Internal Colony of EU.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 13 2015 22:45 utc | 83
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece
“Otto, also spelled Otho (Greek: Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867), was a Bavarian prince who became the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London. He reigned until his deposition in 1862.The second son of King Ludwig I of Bavaria, Otto ascended the newly created throne of Greece while still a minor. His government was initially run by a three-man regency council made up of Bavarian court officials. Upon reaching his majority, Otto removed the regents when they proved unpopular with the people and he ruled as an absolute monarch. Eventually his subjects' demands for a Constitution proved overwhelming and in the face of an armed but peaceful insurrection, Otto granted a constitution in 1843. However he rigged elections using fraud and terror.
Throughout his reign, Otto was unable to resolve Greece's poverty and economic meddling from outside powers. The politics of Greece of this era was based on affiliations with the three Great Powers, and Otto's ability to maintain the support of the powers was key to his remaining in power. To remain strong, Otto had to play the interests of each of the Great Powers' Greek adherents against the others, while not aggravating the Great Powers. When Greece was blockaded by the (British) Royal Navy in 1850 and again in 1854, to stop Greece from attacking the Ottoman Empire during the Crimean War, Otto's standing amongst Greeks suffered. As a result, there was an assassination attempt on the Queen and finally, in 1862, Otto was deposed while in the countryside. He died in exile in Bavaria in 1867.”
In short this is a modern history of Greece.
“Otto was unable to resolve Greece's poverty and economic meddling from outside powers.” Some thing will never change.
Now, instead of Ottos, white liberals-bourgeois invented compradore class. People like Tspiras and “Western educated” academics who are, “rational, peaceful, liberal, logical” (E. Said). But they ability to change and resolve a societal problems are next to nothing, only in sphere of speculation such as the Game Theory.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 13 2015 23:28 utc | 84
On top of that, the Greek authorities shall take the following actions:• to develop a significantly scaled up privatisation programme with improved governance; valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means. The monetization of the assets will be one source to make the scheduled repayment of the new loan of ESM and generate over the life of the new loan a targeted total of EUR 50bn of which EUR 25bn will be used for the repayment of recapitalization of banks and other assets and 50 % of every remaining euro (i.e. 50% of EUR 25bn) will be used for decreasing the debt to GDP ratio and the remaining 50 % will be used for investments.
This fund would be established in Greece and be managed by the Greek authorities under the supervision of the relevant European Institutions. In agreement with Institutions and building on best international practices, a legislative framework should be adopted to ensure transparent procedures and adequate asset sale pricing, according to OECD principles and standards on the management of State Owned Enterprises (SOEs);
Heh, what to say! In capitalism every aspect of life is used as instrument of violence. Among many of them the Law is one of favorite one, to legislate state sponsored violence. This document http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/13/this-is-the-bailout-deal-greece-and-eurozone-just-agreed-full-document/ is nothing but but vicious violence. If the Greeks wants to be free they must respond in appropriate manner which a Nazi only understand, that is an arms struggle.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 14 2015 0:19 utc | 85
@fairleft #32
I was sorry to see FDL reduced to what it is too, even though I rarely went or posted there anymore so I can't really complain.
There was some good stuff--David Dayan, Marcy Wheeler, and so on. And it was nice to chat with some of the folks on MyFdl from time to time. Imho, it wasn't that the site got more pwogressive, but that it never really grew from its role as a critic of the bush admin to any sort of critical analysis of not only Obama, but neoliberalism at large. I think it tried to some extent, and I think that's where most posters' sympathies seemed to be, but it just never made the transition.
Posted by: sleepy | Jul 14 2015 0:39 utc | 86
Noirette @50
Thanks for that interview of Yanis. It is very illuminating. I think its pretty clear that Tsipras reached his Peter Principle level and did not have the depth of knowledge and experience to lead Greece. Greece had no choice but to exit if it wanted to retain its sovereignty and the fact that the Syriza government did not prepare for this alternative goes to show they were not really prepared to govern.
IMO, Syriza and the left in Greece will disintegrate over time as the people experience the scale of the betrayal and how far Syriza moved from their campaign positions they used to win the election and the referendum. Many in Greece would say if the intent of Syriza was to capitulate why didn't they do it earlier. This will pave the way for the fascist Golden Dawn.
The disintegration of the left in Weimar Germany created the opening for the Nazis.
I feel really sorry for the average Greek citizen as their situation is going to get much worse as their country disintegrates and extremists gain more political traction. A military coup cannot be discounted at this point.
Posted by: ab initio | Jul 14 2015 0:55 utc | 87
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/uk-eurozone-greece-idUKKBN0P40FR20150713
"The Greek leader had to drop his opposition to a full role for the International Monetary Fund in the next bailout, which Merkel had insisted on to win parliamentary backing in Berlin."
To me the proof that Washington is behind all this, and the Germans are just servants of the most brutal regime in history.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 14 2015 1:13 utc | 88
@85 sleepy... the site was too american centric for my tastes.. excellent coverage, but too american centric.. that is why i mostly stopped going their..
Posted by: james | Jul 14 2015 2:47 utc | 89
@3 and 9...
Steve Kken wrote a blessedly short piece on this in Forbes a couple of weeks back:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevekeen/2015/06/18/are-surpluses-normal/
It's called the "household analogy" fallacy when applied to sovereign issuers.
And yes, it basically means that the vast majority of people are simply "pre-Copernican" in their understanding of
economics, most notably the vast majority of economists.
Specifically with regard to the EU one of the smartest proponents of this line of reasoning - called Modern Monetary Theory or Soft Currency Economics - Warren Mosler, gave an incredibly valuable analysis of the EU here:
Posted by: Oddlots | Jul 14 2015 3:55 utc | 90
Greg Palast also wrote quite a revealing article about the birth of the EMU. It features Robert Mundell, a (cough) Nobel Prize winning Canadian economist who apparently played a role in developing the architecture (cough) of the Euro. (Is there a term for "anti-architecture? Maybe booby trap?)
http://www.gregpalast.com/the-euro-is-a-big-success-no-kidding/
Posted by: Oddlots | Jul 14 2015 4:14 utc | 91
Not sure if anyone's posted this, its an interview with Varoufakis and there's nothing in it that suggests Greece is headed in a positive direction:
This is what the American antiwar.com Libertarians are putting out on the Greeks. They seem to be singing in harmony with the Germans, although I didn't get past the first paragraph. At least they are antiwar. That puts them ahead of the pwogs.
Posted by: jfl | Jul 14 2015 7:28 utc | 94
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33518524
Iran nuclear agreement 'reached' - diplomats in Vienna
A deal on limiting Iran's nuclear programme in return for the lifting of sanctions has been reached at talks in Vienna, diplomats say.
Under the agreement, access for nuclear inspectors monitoring Iran's programme would reportedly not be automatic.
The EU announced a "final plenary" meeting at 08:30 GMT, followed by a news conference.
Six world powers including the US, Russia and the UK have been negotiating with Iran for several years.
A diplomat quoted by the Associated Press said the deal included a compromise over the inspection of sites within Iran. It would allow UN inspectors to monitor military sites, but Iran could challenge requests for access, the diplomat said.
Iran has accepted that sanctions could be restored in 65 days if it violates the deal, Reuters cited diplomats as saying. It reported that a UN arms embargo would stay in place for five years, and that UN missile sanctions would remain for eight years.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 14 2015 8:35 utc | 95
Resistance still coalescing. Strikes and demonstrations on Tuesday and Wednesday. Show us what you got, Greece!
Posted by: fairleft | Jul 14 2015 8:38 utc | 96
You know who won here. Big Capital, the Banks, the EU sect in Brussels, NATO, and the USA.
Who lost: Syriza, The Greeks (Greece has lost its sovereignity), all the peoples of Europe (what happened to Greece can happen elsewhere), the working class everywhere, and democratic ideals.
Articles of maybe some interest, not sure about the content
Europe is ready to explode, but probably not for the reasons you think
unbalanced evolution, 13 July http://tinyurl.com/nrzas7g
Quarantine Greece? EU is placing terms into new loan proposal that will cut Greece off from BRICs financing
redpilltimes 12 July http://tinyurl.com/pzbfl43
Greece owes less than Europe says
politico recent http://tinyurl.com/p3rqa42
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 14 2015 8:46 utc | 97
Considering recent events and the sellout of Greek sovereignty
to foreign powers (the EU,ECB,IMF, etc), that technically speaking there is a
reasonable case could be made that Alexis Tsipras is guilty of treason
Posted by: chris m | Jul 14 2015 10:10 utc | 98
What's the date of the referendum on this latest, and worst, 'austerity' offer?
Posted by: jfl | Jul 14 2015 11:47 utc | 99
4
Noirette, you of all people on MoA musthe surely recognize the Controller Opposition. It'seems in all the Western media, the same talking points false 'debate', the 'good cop, bad cop', Tsipras the 'good cop' who can'take defeat the hooligans downtown.
This obvious charade is like watching Newman and Redford play the parts of Tsipras and Legarde in this modern version of The Sting, just the EU Banking Cartel and the GR Mil.Gov Cartel swindling the world's workers and taxpayers.
Tsipras and Syriza are no different than Poroshenko and his party. One wages war on Russian caste, the other wages war on the unions and the pensioners caste, ...doubly-ironic, because Mil-Gov is a union with pensions, ripping theirs from ours.
The largest and longest continously move able swindle in the history of Civilization.
Oh, I just love Tsipras, he'said so handsome! Why, he would never hurt a fly!
Reee, reee, reee~!!!
Posted by: Chipnik | Jul 14 2015 12:12 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
If there is real democracy then Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc should all have a referendum if their taxpayers should foot the bill to bail out private banks and other european governments who get into too much debt that they can never repay. That should settle the matter instead of this non-stop kabuki theatre.
Posted by: ab initio | Jul 12 2015 15:41 utc | 1