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April 11, 2015
Open Thread 2015-17
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@99
“What has Islam done lately?” That diversion caused me to chuckle until I thought about the question. They have suffered humiliation, conquest and mass murder under Western dominance for much longer than, lately.
The subject was Europe in the MA not Islam and your illuminated ignorance of that era. I probably should have been gentler with my criticism of that ignorance but you present it with such authority and arrogance I couldn’t resist.
Your attempt to teach history after that contrived revisionism will keep me smiling or cringing for some time.
Posted by: Wayoutwest | Apr 18 2015 16:22 utc | 101
Wayout — The subject was the various contributions of the assorted flavors of monotheism, as well as the poverty of the Latin West after the withdrawal of the Roman empire from its birthplace.
You offered a contrast with Cordoba, and I widened your limited scope. I’ll continue to endeavor to do so.
I have undergrad and graduate coursework in antiquity, medieval, and modern Europe. You may not like my opinions on the era, but I humbly submit I cannot properly be labelled ignorant of the subject. Pirenne is an old favorite of mine, better know for work like Early Democracy in the Low Countries.
On reflection, I think I prefer you cringe, and will do my best to ensure that. Please, no thanks necessary, it’s truly a pleasure.
Posted by: rufus magister | Apr 18 2015 20:32 utc | 102
Demian at 100 —
Understood; what’s a little Old Skulastic disputation amongst friends? I have friends, family, and colleagues all across the religious spectrum. Fundamanentalist Christianity put me off all religions. Though I would allow, they contain bits of profound human wisdom, buried in greater or lesser degrees of obfuscation.
I’d agree with your outline of the relationship of the three main monotheistic Abrahamic traditions. Except to say, Islam is more of a heresy or schism from both Judaism and Christianity, as Mohammed glommed onto both traditions.
While I’ve enjoyed the discussion, it’s not really new ground. But I did get to thinking about one point you raised awhile ago. The Orthodox lack a “just war” doctrine, as they viewed war more as a regrettable necessity than a noble cause. Perhaps; it would seem consonant with the approach of the Russians.
I would note that the Catholics had a definite need for such analysis. The bulk of the wars fought by the Orthodox were against Islam or the Latins, not against other Orthodox states. Catholics were fighting largely amongst themselves, so the devout followers of the Prince of Peace would need a guide to rationalization.
As I understand ecclesiastical history, the philosophical rigor of Orthodoxy is less robust than that of the Latin tradition. I think in part because the Byzantines needed the educated to run their very robust bureaucracy. Clerics aided in administration in the West, but plenty were available for intellectual speculation. The development of universities from cathedral schools aided this process.
This isn’t to say the piety of the Orthodox is less genuine; the ritual and relationship may well be the closest to the early Church traditions, but I really can’t say.
Say what you will about Catholicism, only the Jews and Catholics had large, active working-class movements associated with them in the US. I believe the group A.J. Muste lead into the Socialist Worker Party ca. 1930 was generic christian socialist/pacificist.
Posted by: rufus magister | Apr 18 2015 21:12 utc | 103
@rm #103:
I did get to thinking about one point you raised awhile ago. The Orthodox lack a “just war” doctrine
Actually, I learned about that from the user juanine. (I probably got the name wrong.)
Catholics were fighting largely amongst themselves
Let’s not forget the Counter-Reformation and the Thirty Years War, which led to the Treaty of Westphalia, and so was a seminal event for Europe.
Islam is more of a heresy or schism from both Judaism and Christianity, as Mohammed glommed onto both traditions.
Sorry, since Judaism is an orthopraxic, not an orthodox, religion (what matters is practice, not belief), I don’t see how there can be a heresy from Judaism. Also, Islam sides with Judaism against Christianity on just about everything, including the rejection of Christ’s divinity and the Trinity as well as keeping dietary laws and ritual bodily mutilation (orthopraxy). The Western idea that there is a “Judaeo-Christian tradition” which stands in stark contrast with Islam is one of the greatest PR con jobs of all time. (This is not to say that Russian Orthodox do not respect Judaism as much as hey respect Islam.) The only major issue on which Islam goes along with Christianity againt Judaism that I can think of is rejecting the idea that Jews are teh chosen people.
That reminds me that I neglected in my previous point to bring up Christian fundemantalists, whom you mentioned. Of course, the whole point of the doctrine that there are “dispensations” is to preserve the idea that the Jews are special as far as God is concerned. Orthodox (small ‘o’) Christianity gave up that idea with Paul and the church fathers. So as I said before, premillennial dispensationalism is heretical. (Our former user Nora said the same.)
the philosophical rigor of Orthodoxy is less robust than that of the Latin tradition
I certainly wouldn’t argue with that, although the Saker probably would, since he has written that Orthodox theology is so complex and suphisticated that he can’t understand it, even after studying it for decades. I get the impression that he’s a bit of an Old Believer.
And our exchange about Orthodoxy and Catholicism would not be complete if I did not mention that one of the most renowned Russian philosophers thought very highly of Catholicism:
Many, including even such prominent theologians as Urs von Balthasar, believe Solovyov renounced Orthodoxy and became a Catholic, so warmly did Solovyov praise the Catholic Church.
Demian at 104 — I would say that there are enough prescribed practice (like halal, as you point, daily prayers, and the haj (if possible) to qualify as close enough to orthopraxic judaism. Any culture who has a Suleiman the Magnificent as the peak ruler certainly fancies that it has a connection to the Old Testament.
I recall hearing that about Soloviev. You’re aware that Paul, apparently in part in his capacity as the Master of the Order of Malta, provided refuge when the Society of Jesus was temporarily suppressed by the Vatican? He thought they would be useful in Russian education. Jesuits specialised in education, and often their colleges would attract Protestents.
Much of New England was a Congregationalist theocracy; no Catholics, Baptists, or Quakers. Williams founded Rhode Island as an escape. I lived in Somerville, Mass., after I married Mrs. M., where a mob torched a convent in the 1830’s.
I think “just war” theology predates the Reformation; all those pesky Anglo-French wars and Italian states quarreling amongst themselves (including of course the Bishop of Rome, sovereign of the Papal States, so he has skin in the theological game). But it sure came in handy during the wars of religion, culminating in the Treaty of Westphalia.
To be fair, Orthodoxy had to get its act together philosophically and confirm and defend its exegesis and theology after the Renaissance and Reformation, and apparently did so sufficiently. Did you know the Poles were Calvinist for a time? That brought the Reformation to the doorstep of the Orthodox communion. Nikon won his spurs with reforms in Kiev before translation to the see at Moscow. His work of course prompted the schism with the “Old Belief.”
Posted by: rufus magister | Apr 19 2015 0:09 utc | 105
@rm #105:
You’re aware that Paul, apparently in part in his capacity as the Master of the Order of Malta, provided refuge when the Society of Jesus was temporarily suppressed by the Vatican?
No, I wasn’t. Interesting.
As for growing up in New England, it’s kind of interesting how I seem to have come to feel that mainline Protestantism is second nature, even though I became an atheist around 13 or so and never went to a Protestant service until I was in college (when I went to one with, surprise surprise, a Jewish girl).
Incidentally, growing up in a Catholic country, I think the Saker’s experience was completely different.
Orthodoxy had to get its act together philosophically and confirm and defend its exegesis and theology after the Renaissance and Reformation, and apparently did so sufficiently.
I’m not sure whether Orthodoxy actually had to do that, and I have no idea of whether it has succeeded in doing so. I cannot get into Orthodoxy philosophically at all, given my German idealist influence. If I ever look into Russian philosophy it will be reading Il’in, who was influenced by Hegel. (He is discussed at the link I gave before.)
Did you know the Poles were Calvinist for a time?
Yeah, I had a vague recollection that the Reformation made its way into Poland. But I can’t say I’m sorry that Rome won them back, since I really don’t like Calvinism. (I’m even unhappy that the German evangelical church isn’t a proper Lutheran church, but is a union of Lutheran and Calvinist churches. I was very surprised to learn that after I got into Lutheranism a few years ago. Calvinism ends up with Christian fundamentalism; Lutheranism ends up with Kant and Hegel.)
Your Russian history is much better than mine.
Demian @ 106 —
You might recall, I’m a defrocked academic, an ABD in Soviet History. And a voracious reader of history generally.
I’m not very fond of Calvinism myself. The signature doctrine of predestination a bad attempt to solve the paradox of omniscience and free will. If the Deity is all-knowing and all-powerful, doesn’t he know that Lucifer will betray him or that some will reject salvation? Oh, he knows, perhaps has picked those to save. Seem to sharply conflict with the text and spirit of the Gospel. “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Throw in the busybodies of the consistory (a theocratic council in Geneva that disciplined citizens) and a tendency to teetotalism, and it’s a bad bit of business all around.
I’d recommend Turgenev’s work, if you haven’t read it already, for the Hegelian connection. He studied it in Germany, wanted to teach it Russia, but this was impossible under Nicholas I, so he wrote fiction. Along with Chekhov, the best of Russ. lit, IMHO.
Posted by: rufus magister | Apr 19 2015 15:11 utc | 107