Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 29, 2015
NYT Propagandizes False Ukrainian History

The New York Times claims that the Ukraine Separatists Rewrite History of 1930s Famine. A headline nearer to the historic truth would be "NYT Propagandizes False Ukrainian History" or "Ukraine Separatists Correct Rewritten History of 1930s Famine".

An excerpt from the piece says:

Traditionally, Ukrainian historians have characterized the famine as a genocide, the direct result of Stalin’s forced collectivization and the Soviet government’s requisitioning of grain for export abroad, leaving Ukraine short — and its borders sealed shut. Since Ukraine gained independence, that is what its students have been taught.

But that is not what students in southeastern Ukraine are learning this year. Instead, under orders from the newly installed separatist governments, they are getting the sanitized Russian version, in which the famine was an unavoidable tragedy that befell the entire Soviet Union.

West-Ukrainians have claimed that the famine caused by the Soviet government under Stalin was a unique genocide targeted against ethnic Ukrainians. They often use this claim to demonize Russians. But that claim is ahistoric and false.

The famine happened in all agricultural areas of the Soviet Union. The Volga region of Russia was just as much effected as the Ukraine region But the most hurt area was Kazakhstan:

Kazakhs were most severely affected by the Soviet famine in terms of percentage of people who died (approximately 38%). Around 1.5 million people died in Kazakhstan of whom 1.3 million where ethnic Kazakhs.

Even the Ukrainians who claim that the famine was a special anti-Ukrainian genocide concede that point. In a 2009 piece on the issue the NYT quoted a Ukrainian professor who propagandizes the genocide myth:

“If in other regions, people were hungry and died from famine, then here people were killed by hunger,” Professor Kulchytsky said. “That is the absolute difference.”

So being "killed by hunger" in Ukraine and "died from famine" in the Volga region and Kazakhstan is an "absolute difference"? The cause as well as the outcome seem to be the same to me. What else but some national genocide myth making could create an "absolute difference" in that.

The reasons for the famine are also multiple and not caused by a Stalin order or intent to "kill the Ukrainians":

[In 1927 Stalin warned] party congress delegates of an impending capitalist encirclement, he stressed that survival and development could only occur by pursuing the rapid development of heavy industry.

Shifting from Lenin's New Economic Policy or NEP, the first Five-Year Plan established central planning as the basis of economic decision-making, stressing rapid, heavy industrialization. It began the rapid process of transforming a largely agrarian nation consisting of peasants into an industrial superpower. In effect, the initial goals were laying the foundations for future exponential economic growth.

In November 1928 the Central Committee decided to implement forced collectivization of the peasant farmers. This marked the end of the NEP, which had allowed peasants to sell their surpluses on the open market. Grain requisitioning intensified and peasants were forced to give up their private plots of land and property, to work for collective farms, and to sell their produce to the state for a low price set by the state.

Given the goals of the first Five Year Plan, the state sought increased political control of agriculture, hoping to feed the rapidly growing urban areas and to export grain, a source of foreign currency needed to import technologies necessary for heavy industrialization.

The plan of rapid industrialization was largely successful. Iron and coal production exploded. New industries grew with newly imported modern machines. The agricultural development was more difficult. The forced collectivization of peasant farmers and the exceeding central demands to deliver their products to the cities and for export led to a sharp drop in agricultural productivity and output. The small land landowners boycotted the collectivization which was then brutally enforced. Only in the early 1940s did the agricultural production again reach the level of the early 1930s.

The separatist governments in east-Ukraine have this right. The famine was the heavy price paid for the fast industrialization of the Soviet Union in the 1930s. The main agricultural regions were hit hardest while areas with coal and iron ore and the cities developed the most.

But only the successful industrialization in the 1930s enabled the Soviet Union to withstand the German onslaught in the following decade. Without Stalin's foresight and brutal industrialization the Soviet Union would not have been able to later out-produce the well industrialized Germany in weapons and ammunition. It would have lost the war against the Nazis. Even as it won the war it cost the Soviet Union about five times the casualties of the 1930s famine.

But the fact that the Soviet Union did not lose that war against Nazi-Germany may be the real reason why today's Ukrainian "nationalists" are sad about the issue.

Comments

thanks rufus. the fort russ link to the interview is cut off..

Posted by: james | May 2 2015 16:01 utc | 101

james — Oops, I was simultaneously fielding an inquiry from Mrs. M. about the honey dew list. Thanks!
Here’s the link to A test for humanity. They’re prosecuting survivors, still, as far as I know.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 16:14 utc | 102

Oops again, I got ’em both to work. I’m taking this as hint to get gardening, Barflies.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 16:17 utc | 103

@Demian
Demian, some info on what I mentioned earlier.
In the book ‘Unternehmen Barbarossa und der russische Historikerstreit'(“Operation Barbarossa and the Russian Historians’ Dispute”),
German historian Wolfgang Strauss examines the work of Russian historians,mostly made possible after the fall of the USSR and the partial opening of many formerly sealed soviet archives.
There are still hundreds of thousands of sealed archives.
He writes that one of the earliest Russian revisionists of World War II history was Pyotr Grigorenko, a Soviet Army Major General and highly decorated war veteran who taught at the Frunze Military Academy.
In 1967, Strauss relates, he was the first leading Soviet figure to advance the revisionist arguments, which became well known during the
1980s and 1990s, on Stalin’s preparations for aggressive war against Germany. In an article submitted to a major Soviet journal(but rejected, and later published abroad), Grigorenko pointed out that Soviet military forces vastly outnumbered German forces in 1941.
Just prior to the German attack on June 22, 1941, more than half of the Soviet forces were in the area near and west of Bialystok, that is,in an area deep in Polish occupied territory. “This deployment could only be justified” wrote Grigorenko, “if these troops were deploying
for a surprise offensive. In the event of an enemy attack these troops would soon be encircled.”
An incomplete list of recent Russian historians who have come to the conclusion that Stalin was preparing to launch a major offensive against Germany in the summer of 41 but was beat to it by Hitler;
Viktor Suvorov(aka Vladimir Bogdanovich Resun), historian and archivist Mikhail Meltiukhov,
V. A. Nevezhin, V. D. Danilov,Igor Bunich, Russian historian I. V. Pavlova, V. L. Doroshenko, M.Solonin, etc.
Meltiukhov(associated with the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Documentation and Archival Science, published ‘Upushchennyy shans Stalina ‘(“Stalin’s Lost Opportunity”).), who, with his experience in documentation and archival science and his easier access to Soviet-era records, has provided a lot of documentation for Suvorov’s theses.
Two Russian anthologies, both issued in 1995, were examined by Strauss: “Did Stalin Make Preparations for an Offensive War Against Hitler?,” and “September 1, 1939-May 9, 1945:
50th Anniversary of the Defeat of Fascist Germany.”[Gotovil li Stalin nastupatel’nuyu voynu protiv Gitlera (“Did Stalin Make Preparations for an Offensive War Against Hitler?,” by Grigoriy Bordyugov and Vladimir Nevezhin (Moscow: AIRO XX, 1995), and, 1 sentyabrya 1939-9 maya 1945:
Pyatidesyatiletiye razgroma fashistkoy Germanii v Kontekste Nachala Vtoroy Mirovoy Voyny (“September 1, 1939-May 9, 1945: the 50th Anniversary of the Defeat of Fascist Germany in the Context of the Beginning of the War”),
edited by I.V. Pavlova and V. L. Doroshenko (Novosibirsk Memorial, 1995).
Strauss lists (pages 102-105) the major findings and conclusions of Russian revisionist historians, derived mostly from the two major works cited above:
-Stalin wanted a general European war of exhaustion in which the USSR would intervene at the politically and militarily most expedient moment. Stalin’s main intention is seen in his speech to the Politburo of August 19, 1939.
-To ignite this, Stalin used the [August 1939] Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact, which: a) provoked Hitler’s attack against Poland, and b) evoked the declarations of war [against Germany] by Britain and France.
-In the event Germany was defeated quickly [by Britain and France], Stalin planned to “Sovietize” Germany and establish a “Communist government” there, but with the danger that the victorious capitalist powers would never permit a Communist Germany.
-In the event France was defeated quickly [by Germany], Stalin planned the “Sovietization” of France. “A Communist revolution would seem inevitable, and we could take advantage of this for our own purposes by rushing to aid France and making her our ally. As a result of this, all the nations under the ‘protection’ of a victorious Germany would become our allies.”
-From the outset Stalin reckoned on a war with Germany, and the [Soviet] conquest of Germany. To this end, Stalin concentrated on the western border of the USSR operational offensive forces, which were five- to six-times stronger than the Wehrmacht with respect to tanks, aircraft and artillery.
-With respect to a war of aggression, on May 15, 1941, the Red Army’s Main Political Directorate instructed troop commanders that every war the USSR engaged in, whether defensive or offensive, would have the character of a “just war.”
-Troop contingents were to be brought up to full strength in all the
western military districts; airfields and supply bases to support a forward-strategy were to be built directly behind the border; an attack force of 60 divisions was to be set up in the Ukraine and mountain divisions and a parachute corps were to be established for attack operations.
The 16th, 19th, 21st, 22nd and 25th Soviet Armies were transferred from the interior to the western border, and deployed at take-off points for the planned offensive.
In his speech of May 5, 1941, to graduate officers of the academies, Stalin said that war with Germany was inevitable, and characterized
it as a war not only of a defensive nature but rather of an offensive nature.
Stalin intended to attack in July 1941, although Russian historians disagree about the precise date. Suvorov cites July 6, [Valeri] Danilov
[a retired Soviet Colonel] gives July 2, while Melitiukhov writes:
“The Red Army could not have carried out an attack before July 15.”
The Suvorov school and certain German military analysts speculate that Stalin’s failure to attack before the German onslaught of June 22,
1941, was probably because his own forces had not yet fully deployed for the offensive.
Sergeyev, on the other hand, suggests that the attack plan prepared by Zhukov was faulty.
Meltiukhov, associated with the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Documentation and Archival Science, author of ‘Upushchennyy shans Stalina’ (“Stalin’s Lost Opportunity”).
Meltiukhov speculates that Stalin delayed the date for the attack when he learned, on May 12, of Rudolf Hess’ flight to Scotland.
Stalin feared that if the Hess peace mission succeeded, and the British withdrew from the war, the Red Army would be left to stand alone against
the Germans. When it became clear that the Hess mission had failed, Stalin set July 15 as the date for Operation Thunderstorm.

Posted by: Luca K | May 2 2015 20:49 utc | 104

Some more:
The Zhukov Plan of May 15, 1941, continues to be the focus of analysis and discussion.
Vladimir Sergeyev described and published excerpts from the Zhukov document, which was discovered in the Archives of the President of
the Russian Federation some years ago. For ultimate security, the original twelve-page text had been handwritten by then Major General,
later Marshal, A. M. Vasilevski, and addressed to the chairman of the USSR Council of Peoples Commissars, Joseph Stalin.
The document, marked “Top Secret! Of Great Importance! Stalin’s Eyes Only! One Copy Only!,” was authorized and approved by People’s Defense
Minister S. K. Timoshenko and Zhukov, then chief of the Red Army general staff.
A key passage in the war plan not previously cited in these pages reads:
“In order to prevent a surprise German attack and to destroy the German Army, I consider it essential that under no circumstances should the initiative for freedom of action be given to the German High Command[. I consider it essential] to preempt enemy deployment, to attack the German Army when it is still in the stage of deployment and has not yet had time to organize his front and the interaction between his service arms.
[The word for “preempt” was underlined twice in the original document).
Thus did Zhukov propose to Stalin precisely what the German Army would do to his forces a month later.
Soviet mobilization and deployment in the period January-June 1941 took place in three stages:
first stage, January-March, the call-up of about a million reservists, industry ordered to step up production of T-34 and KV tanks, first echelon troops brought up to strength;
second stage, April-June, second echelon forces moved up to the western border, Far Eastern troops moved west;
third stage, June 1-June 22, Stalin agrees to open mobilization and to advancing second echelon armies to the front. All these operations were to be carried out in secrecy, without the enemy taking note. Once mobilized and in position, the Soviet forces were to launch a sudden, decisive offensive against Germany and her allies.
According to Meltiukhov, the correlation of forces along the front from Ostroleka (Poland) to the Carpathians at the time of the planned Zhukov offensive was as shown in the table below.
Red Army Wehrmacht Ratio
Divisions 128 55 2.3:1
Troop strength 3,400,000 1,400,000 2.1:1
Field guns 38,500 16,300 2.4:1
Tanks 7,500 900 8.7:1
Aircraft 6,200 1,400 4.4:1
The attack was to begin in typical blitzkrieg fashion — without warning, with air raids on enemy airfields, and with heavy artillery bombardment of front-line enemy forces. The USSR would thus have had the clear advantage of superior forces and the benefits of the first strike.
In “Stalin’s Lost Opportunity,” Meltiukhov establishes, with meticulous
documentation, that in the years 1938-40 the Soviet Union had carried out a massive build-up of military muscle that made it the superpower of the day, far exceeding the might of any enemy.
Meltiukhov writes on Stalin’s intent:
“The content of the Soviet operational plans, the ideological guidelines and the military propaganda, combined with information
on the immediate military preparations of the Red Army for an offensive, attest unambiguously to the intention of the Soviet government to attack Germany in the summer of 1941.”
He concludes that at first the opening strike against Germany (Operation Groza [Thunderstorm]) was scheduled for June 12, 1941,
but that the Kremlin later fatefully shifted the date to July 15.
Following the publication of Stalin’s speech in Novy Mir, historians at Novosibirsk University undertook a major revisionist study of the immediate prewar situation. The results of this scholarly seminar were published in April 1995. Russian historian I. V. Pavlova,
stated bluntly in her seminar contribution that for decades Communist Party historians worked to bury the background, origins and development of the Second World War, including Stalin’s August 1939 speech, under a mountain of lies
.
Another of the participating scholars, V. L. Doroshenko, said that the new evidence shows that “Stalin provoked and unleashed the Second World War.” Suggesting that Stalin and his regime should have been on trial at Nuremberg, Doroshenko went on explain:
… Not just because Stalin helped Hitler but because it was in Stalin’s own interests that the war begin. First, because of his general goal of seizing power in Europe, and, second, because of the immediate advantage of destroying Poland and taking over Galicia. But Stalin’s most important motive was the war itself … The collapse of the European order would have made it possible for him to establish his dictatorship [over all of Europe].
To this end, Stalin wanted for the time being to stay out of the war, but only with the intention of entering it at the most favorable moment. In other words, the nonaggression pact freed Hitler’s hands and encouraged Germany to unleash a war [in Poland]. As Stalin signed the Pact, he was already determined to break it. Right from the outset he did not intend to stay out of the conflict but, to the contrary, to enter the war directly at the most advantageous moment.

Posted by: Luca K | May 2 2015 20:52 utc | 105

One of the authors I mentioned has a good website which features articles in Russian, English and more.
http://www.solonin.org/en/article_comrade-stalins-three-plans
This is not to say the USSR was the sole responsible for WWII, the US, plus the brits and France(Poland was the useful idiot but it was responsible too) share in the responsability.
The axis countries also bear some responsability, though my in my opinion it is the allies who were largely responsible for the war.
MOre later..

Posted by: Luca K | May 2 2015 20:59 utc | 106

As suggested, the evidence for the plan eminates from Bunich and friends of his like Suvorov. The lack of any effective counter attacks during the opening phase of Operation Barbarossa does not suggest to me a power on the verge of attack. That Hitler’s build-up was reported by the British and disbelieved by Stalin, but not other officials, is well-established.
We know exactly what the Germans were up to and why, having captured their documents. Why are we relying upon convenient secret finds from the recesses of the Soveit archives?
“The axis countries also bear some responsibility….” Gee, do you think that the fascists who lived for war and laid out in advance at some detail their plans for it might bear say, most of the culpability? Along with their Western enablers?
You can see what sort of polemics Strauss engages in here, Revisionism in Russia. Strident anti-bolshevism and Holocaust apologetics.
An elaborate scheme to blame the victim. Fever, dementia, (ideological or aged induced) delirium tremens? Not sure it matters, but I do like to be precise.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 21:33 utc | 107

Underlying source for much of LK’s rhetoric, Historian Details Stalin’s Two-Year ‘Mobilization’ Plan for European Conquest, where former defense analyst Daniel W. Michaels touts Suvorov’s work. Wikipedia notes that the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust has been active in Holocaust denialism since the 1980’s.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 21:46 utc | 108

Same author, source on Vladimir Sergeyev, again from <CODOH.”>http://codoh.com/library/document/3000/>CODOH. For some reason, suddenly I both feel the need for a shower but curiously apprehensive and disinclined to have one.
Well, if your not Michaels, your a serial plagiarist. I don’t see either as positive.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 21:51 utc | 109

I got annoyed and sloppy, my bad, from CODOH

Posted by: rufus magister | May 2 2015 21:52 utc | 110

How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor by professor Robert Higgs;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p8z1A3TsxU

Posted by: Luca K | May 2 2015 23:30 utc | 111

@rufus magister
YAWNNN…
U are a typical moron who tries to discredit the information I have mentioned(which rattles your ideological cage) by linking it to CODOH. Kill the messenger.
The russian historians MENTIONED have NOTHING to do with codoh. Nor does Strauss and the many other german, austrian, american and other historians who have concluded the official soviet story belongs to the fiction category.
The fact that in the West most news outlets,the presstitutes, choose to ignore all this work, and codoh(or whichever non conformist outlet) have to do it in their place, tells any independent thinking person a lot about the state of wwii history and the world.
As for plagiarism. The important stuff is the links to the historians work, which is all given, and the summaries of their position.
Unless of course, you can prove that the info is all made up, which u cannot bc it is not.
All the rest is nitpicking from the cretin rufus magister, who thinks too much of himself.
For those who may be open minded and cannot read german or russian, Rezuns latest has been translated into English,’the chief culprit’.
Read Solonin’s website. He is the author of one of the books i mentioned. Get Albert L Weeks, the author of Stalin’s Other War : Soviet Grand Strategy 1939-1941. here:
http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Other-War-Strategy-1939-1941/dp/0742521923/
“Longtime Soviet expert Albert L. Weeks has studied the newly-released information and come to a new conclusion about the Soviet Union’s pre-war buildup it was not precaution against German invasion at all. In fact, Weeks argues, the evidence now suggests Soviet mobilization was aimed at an eventual invasion of Nazi Germany.”
BTW, Weeks also quotes from Meltyukhov’s work.
Also, the reason that Putin has been working to block revision of the soviet official narrative is another giveaway. Its bc the official story is BS. Just like the holocau$t with all the hate crime laws which forbid people to come to conclusions different from the official story.
Disclaimer: I support codoh 100% and do NOT believe in the holocau$t story, as alleged.
As israeli dissident Gilad Atzmon has stated, there needs to be an open debate on the this issue, which he correctly call a new ‘religion’. Cult is more like it.
The official holo story does not have a leg to stand on. The core of the story is Pure propaganda.
There is far more documentation for the huge crimes of Stalin than for any hitlerian plan to exterminate jews in mythical gas chambers. Or gypsies and gay people for that matter.
Ultimately, most posters here, being hardcore liberal/leftists, are utterly dishonest from an intellectual viewpoint and igonorant.
They support the work done by researchers who minimize Stalin’s crimes. This while ignoring the fatct that since before wwii, Stalin has had many people in the West, whether useful idiots or not, to carry out his propaganda. Disclaimer: as i have said before, there should be a debate over stalins crimes.
But at the same time a completely different standart is used by the same posters vis a vis the nazis.
Disregarding how the victors, all of them, had all the reasons and opportunities to pin on the prostrated germans and japanese every single wrongdoing in the war and the war itself.
Pretty obvious double standards!!

Posted by: Luca K | May 3 2015 0:43 utc | 112

Luka —
You used Daniels words without attributing them. That is the definition of plagiarism. Don’t be cute. You could have brushed it off as careless. But by attacking me for pointing this out, you confirm yourself to be inherently deceitful.
And if I were quoting CODOH, I’d try to hide that fact myself.
I see little reason to give such argumentation further attention. I am not killing the messenger, I am dismissing the message.
I know Gitzon’s work, please do not hide behind a screen of misrepresentation about it. I do not see Gitzon, when questioning the political uses of the Holocaust (and rightly so) citing CODOH.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 1:10 utc | 113

05/02/2015
Units of the Ukrainian force utilized tanks and mortars in night shelling of Donetsk today, informed Eduard Basurin, the Deputy Commander in Chief of Donetsk Republic Defense.
“Tank and mortar fire is targeting our positions including residential districts”, he said.
According to Defense Ministry of Donetsk Republic, the attacked positions are in area of settlement Spartak; district Kievskiy is being shelled as well.
Another message from Defense structures of Donetsk Republic mentions artillery fire coming from Avdeevka and that a large NATO caliber is being employed.

Posted by: Fete | May 3 2015 3:58 utc | 114

I think this controversy over whether the USSR planned to attack Nazi Germany is a tempest in a teapot. Clearly Nazi Germany had hostile intentions towards Russia, so the Soviet military would have been highly incompetent if it did not draw up plans for attacking first. As it happened, Stalin decided not to attack, because he did not believe that Hitler would be crazy enough to actually open up a second front and start a war against Russia. The secondary issue is the theory that Russia would have had fewer losses if it attacked first. That may be the case, but there is something to be said for avoiding initiating wars, even if they are preemptive.
This thread is about the Ukraine, and we can all agree that the Ukrainian state is more evil than Nazi Germany or Stalin’s Soviet Union ever where.

Posted by: Demian | May 3 2015 6:42 utc | 115

What is most hilarious about this thread and most of the commemtors is that a group that can barely diatinguish fact from reality or their elbow from their arse, in the present day, and whose predictive capabilities have been frequently demonstrated as being mostly imaginary have decided to rewrite history
Lol
What a bunch of utter rools

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 6:54 utc | 116

So
Stalin was just a misunderstood likkle cuddly bear in real life, the deliberate starvation of Kulacks (by taking their food) never happened apparently, despite Stalin acknowledging that the Bolshies were forceably taking food from the workers who actually produced it, in the already-hungry ukraine
But no, the pro-Stalinist lobby at moa have somehow determined that none of this happened, and even if it did the kulacks deserved it, and comrade Stain was a secular saint, as were allthe other bolsheviks
Lol
You guys are like a lefty version of Der Sturmer

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 7:16 utc | 117

“Ultimately, most posters here, being hardcore liberal/leftists, are utterly dishonest from an intellectual viewpoint and igonorant.”
The sort of utter dishonesty being ddisplayed here is not uniqueto the left by any means,
However the lefty liars, especially moas local self-obsessed bigass kardashian wannabe and date-rape exspurt Rufie, do seem tolove constructing dodgy fake moral-high grounds from which to attempt to berate their opponnents
The fact they themselves very frequently display every undesirable personality trait that they accuse their opponents of, seems lost to them entirely

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 7:24 utc | 118

116
Rools=tools
Damn smartphone

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 7:25 utc | 119

Nice to see rufie the daterape exspurt getting all fake-moral-high-ground with Luka over “Der Holy Caust” religion, while himself denying the Holodomor
Rufie will always be one of the first and loudest to scream “Burn the Heretic!”
Oh the delicious irony and hypocrisy of attacking someone, on “moral” grounds no less (lol), for questioning the “holy caust” religion while at the very same time you yourself are denying the “Holodomor” -Rufie certainly is a well-trained goy. David Irving eat yer heart out
Date-rape’s Magisters will be proud

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 7:38 utc | 120

Luka,
“Two Russian anthologies, both issued in 1995, were examined by Strauss: “Did Stalin Make Preparations for an Offensive War Against Hitler?,” and “September 1, 1939-May 9, 1945:
50th Anniversary of the Defeat of Fascist Germany.”[Gotovil li Stalin nastupatel’nuyu voynu protiv Gitlera (“Did Stalin Make Preparations for an Offensive War Against Hitler?,” by Grigoriy Bordyugov and Vladimir Nevezhin (Moscow: AIRO XX, 1995), and, 1 sentyabrya 1939-9 maya 1945:
Pyatidesyatiletiye razgroma fashistkoy Germanii v Kontekste Nachala Vtoroy Mirovoy Voyny (“September 1, 1939-May 9, 1945: the 50th Anniversary of the Defeat of Fascist Germany in the Context of the Beginning of the War”),
edited by I.V. Pavlova and V. L. Doroshenko (Novosibirsk Memorial, 1995).”
You do know that the Soviet 1941 war plan was counteroffensive, don’t you? It would be a bit idiotic to just sit there and take German blows, and General-Major Vasilevsky was no idiot. Explicit in the plan was that the front-line rifle divisions and the Fortified Regions were to absorb and shape the German blows, and then the Mechanized Corps would counterattack into the flanks of the German penetrations. Like Clausewitz said, “The sudden powerful transition to the attack, the flashing sword of vengeance, is the highest moment for the defense.”
And Col-General Kirponos, commander of the Kiev Special Military District, did this pretty well, as did Colonel-General Kuznetsov, commander of the Baltic Special Military District. Pavlov, commanding the Western Special Military District, didn’t do so well.
The sources you cite assume without argument or evidence that the very existence of any offensive capability in Soviet forces near the border as irrefutable proof of Soviet offensive intent. ‘Tain’t necessarily so.
“Strauss lists (pages 102-105) the major findings and conclusions of Russian revisionist historians, derived mostly from the two major works cited above:”
Oh, so if some Russians ‘admit’ it, it makes it automatically true. (rolls eyes)
“-Stalin wanted a general European war of exhaustion in which the USSR would intervene at the politically and militarily most expedient moment. “
Then why did he make an alliance with France and Czechoslovakia in 1935? That alliance had Hitler in a box, not daring to move a muscle, as he explained to Chamberlain at Munich. And Neville helped him out of that box.
“Stalin’s main intention is seen in his speech to the Politburo of August 19, 1939.”
Text please.

”-To ignite this, Stalin used the [August 1939] Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact, which: a) provoked Hitler’s attack against Poland, ”
Equine feces. Hitler was determined to attack Poland for reasons of his own, which had nothing to do with Stalin.
“and b) evoked the declarations of war [against Germany] by Britain and France.”
Which Britain and France did nothing whatsoever to wage until 10 May 1940.
And if all this was so, why was there an Anglo-French military delegation in Moscow discussing how to assist Poland in August 1939?

“-In the event Germany was defeated quickly [by Britain and France], Stalin planned to “Sovietize” Germany and establish a “Communist government” there, but with the danger that the victorious capitalist powers would never permit a Communist Germany.”
That would be a bit hard, since in that case the Anglo-French would be occupying Germany, making sure that the KPD was still in concentration camps given how anticommunist the Anglo-French governments of the time were.

“-In the event France was defeated quickly [by Germany], Stalin planned the “Sovietization” of France. “A Communist revolution would seem inevitable, and we could take advantage of this for our own purposes by rushing to aid France and making her our ally. As a result of this, all the nations under the ‘protection’ of a victorious Germany would become our allies.””
One minor problem. Adolf had the KPD in concentration camps and would ensure that the Communist parties of the countries conquered by Germany would join them there. He was something of an anticommunist, you know.

“-From the outset Stalin reckoned on a war with Germany, and the [Soviet] conquest of Germany. To this end, Stalin concentrated on the western border of the USSR operational offensive forces, which were five- to six-times stronger than the Wehrmacht with respect to tanks, aircraft and artillery.”
And the status of these Soviet forces have been examined in David Glantz’ “Stumbling Collossus”, finding that most were badly obsolete and required major overhauls of their automotive systems. In other words, most of those tanks were fit only to be buried up to the turret ring and used as fixed defensive emplacements.

“-With respect to a war of aggression, on May 15, 1941, the Red Army’s Main Political Directorate instructed troop commanders that every war the USSR engaged in, whether defensive or offensive, would have the character of a “just war.”
That’s what George W. said about Iraq in 2002…

“-Troop contingents were to be brought up to full strength in all the western military districts; airfields and supply bases to support a forward-strategy were to be built directly behind the border; an attack force of 60 divisions was to be set up in the Ukraine and mountain divisions and a parachute corps were to be established for attack operations.”
Here’s the thing. Hitler’s Directive #18 for Barbarossa specified a start date of 15 May 1941. It was postponed because the 162 full-strength Axis divisions in Finland, East Prussia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania were waiting for trucks and other material from France, which could arrive at any time, and Barbarossa was launched practically the instant it arrived. Hitler signed it on 18 December 1940, and Soviet intelligence had the text within a week. So if Stalin was straining and massing forces to attack those 162 Axis divisions (at about 1-1 odds numerically), why were Soviet divisions at skeleton strength (because reservists in the USSR’s western military districts had not been mobilized) and in their peacetime barracks instead of their wartime battle positions when the Germans attacked?

“The 16th, 19th, 21st, 22nd and 25th Soviet Armies were transferred from the interior to the western border, and deployed at take-off points for the planned offensive.”
Untrue. They formed a strategic reserve along the Dneipr, hundreds of miles from the border. Timoshenko used them for his counteroffensive when the Germans first approached the Dneipr. Which ain’t on the 1941 Soviet border, lol!

Posted by: rkka | May 3 2015 12:02 utc | 121

lol 116-119 — I think it’s you, not the smartphone.
What’s with the trolls and the roofies? Lamebot liked ’em.
Like Master Zed says, “If you can’t say something nice, say something surrealistic.” Somewhere in downtown Kiev, a troll is mixing a metaphor.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 13:19 utc | 122

rkka at 121 — More nice work.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 13:21 utc | 123

Oops! Barbarossa was Directive #21, not #18.

Posted by: rkka | May 3 2015 13:30 utc | 124

This morning’s science news, via the always-interesting “Links” at Naked Capitalism. According to the Economist, The latest troll research finds that 80 pct. can be ID within five posts. Research found a number of predictive parameters, including “trolls’ unwillingness to mould their conversation to the slang of an online community; their propensity to swear; and the volume of contributions they make to a debate.”
In presenting the link, NC says “Overpersistence (which in our experience goes along with dishonest argumentation) is a big tell.”
Add for some no actual content apart from pissing and moaning. Remind you of any recent posters? I didn’t need five posts, personally.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 13:45 utc | 125

Fort Russ has additional items on May Day in Russia and Novorossiya, as well as a commemoration, of a sort, of the Odessa Profsoyuz massacre by a Rada deputy. As always, it’s worth a browse.
I strongly recommend the video by Artem Grishanov; I’ve linked to the Youtube source. “Ya ne veryu” (I don’t Believe) is powerful visually as well as musically. Starts with various documentary clips, with subtitles. When the music kicks in about 1:05, unfortunately, no subtitles, and my spoken Russian is too poor to keep up. But variations on “war” and “fighting” keep whipping by, and he doesn’t sound happy. Has a good beat, and you can polemicise to it.
The video shows the results of real Die Sturmer readers (it was the SA periodical). It gets graphic, and leaves little doubt who the perps were.
They also have a nice piece offering a different perspective. According to a recent study by Professor Bulat Nigmatulin the USSR won the battle of economies with Nazy Germany in WWII. Doesn’t matter how good the plan or the equipment or the troops are, if you cannot produce enough materiel. “Analysis of the economic decisions of the country’s leadership in organizing the production of arms and ammunition on the home front opens a new understanding of the history of our victory over Germany. The secret of such success lies in mobilizing everyone working towards a common goal.”

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 14:43 utc | 126

I’ll leave you with something else by Grishanov, more suited for a quiet Sunday morning. Durachki. It’s a colloquialism, meaning “little fools.” Clearly, they’re fools in love, they call each other so in the chorus. They seem a little at odds in how to consummate, but look to be moving towards resolution at the end. Nice little duet.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 15:06 utc | 127

Of course MOA’s very own Ilya Ehrenberg-wannabe , the Magisterdebator himself can’t resist an opportunity to bore us all to death
Like Master Zed says, “If you can’t say something nice, say something surrealistic.”
Posted by: rufus magister | May 3, 2015 9:19:29 AM | 122

Or in your case, just sit there and blather on and on and on and on about your fave subject, yourself
LOL the sight of Mr MagisterDebator sitting their stroking himself in admiration of his own alleged perceptiveness is comical in the extreme.
Rufies desperate need to impress everyone with his alleged sluethiness is funnier by the minute

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 15:45 utc | 128

LOL
“NC says “Overpersistence (which in our experience goes along with dishonest argumentation) is a big tell.””
yeah
like that time you over-persistently trolled the Charlie Hebdo thread with dishonest argumentation trying desperately to distract everyone from the farcical video content which definitely did not show the alleged assassination of the French Police Officer?
Yeah, I bet many people remember that
Yes indeed

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 15:51 utc | 129

LOL — Bully for you. Welcome back, wanker.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 17:57 utc | 130

@rufus magister
“You used Daniels words without attributing them. That is the definition of plagiarism. Don’t be cute. You could have brushed it off as careless. But by attacking me for pointing this out, you confirm yourself to be inherently deceitful.
And if I were quoting CODOH, I’d try to hide that fact myself.”
I have in this blog before mentioned that I am no holo believer. I consider it a hoax of monumental proportions. So I have nothing to be ashamed of re codoh. They are doing a great job.
Daniels did NOT write the reviews for CODOH. He wrote them for the now defunct journal of the institute for historical review. I had copied the files years ago and converted them into a word type file. That’s the file i used to produce a little summary based on the reviews of Daniels. Of course I’m very familiar with the literature, owning a sizeble library, but what Daniel had written was great and my time very limited. This is why i used them.
Codoh has an archive with lots of articles done by people who have no links to them.
My intention was to givethe info to Demian and others but in a more concise way so i had to waste my time and cut, paste, edit, on my own free time on a saturday with my girlfriend nagging me we had to go. When i finished i just posted and forgot to add a disclaimer that it was based on said reviews. Nothing sinister, i have no claims to fame. Will be more careful from now on as to not give ammo to jerks like u.
And Gitzons work?? WTF? ‘Gilad Atzmon’ and no, u don’t seem familiar with his work at all. You can bet your cowardly a*s that Gilad would not feel the way u do about codoh and its open investigation of the holocau$t. Don’t lie.

Posted by: Luca K | May 3 2015 19:15 utc | 131

@RKKA
“And the status of these Soviet forces have been examined in David Glantz’ “Stumbling Collossus”, finding that most were badly obsolete and required major overhauls of their automotive systems. In other words, most of those tanks were fit only to be buried up to the turret ring and used as fixed defensive emplacements.”
You see, rkka, that the kind of stupid bs that has been totally debunked by Suvorov and others.
If The soviet tanks were obsolete then the german armor must be considered as even more obsolete.
A comparison of the types shows this very clearly. Suvorov covers this in detail, debunking such claims in his latest book, ‘The Chief Culprit’.
Of course the soviet weapon systems were not perfect and had problems as did the soviet military. But then so did the germans.

Posted by: Luca K | May 3 2015 19:29 utc | 132


Posted by: Date Rape | May 3, 2015 1:57:56 PM | 130

LOL – Makes a change from your usual pathetic and desperate attempts to mount yourself upon your usual self-declared “Moral High Ground” and then commence your usual two-faced babyish-whining about name-calling

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 20:12 utc | 133

Luca K – So, CODOH has a large archive of nonsense its users find helpful? How nice and convenient for you. Still, you used them without clear attribution. I think you deeply misguided about the Holocaust and a waste of time to discuss exactly how deeply so with you.
I will cop to being careless. I believe you referred to Gilad Atzmon (and I tried to). Here is a recent sample of his work from Counterpunch. His work has appeared there for quite some time, I don’t think he wants the sort of debate you do.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 20:19 utc | 134

How nice and convenient for you. Still, you used them without clear attribution. I think you deeply misguided about the Holocaust and a waste of time to discuss exactly how deeply so with you.
Posted by: rufus magister | May 3, 2015 4:19:14 PM | 134

LOL – Rufie’s ever-increasingly desperate attempts to construct for himself a moral high ground in order to portray his pathetic self as some sort of paragon of virtue, get more and more silly.
Still nice of him to finally admit to being a religious Holy-Caust fanatical Fundamentalist, and also to display quite openly his complete and utter hypocrisy by ranting about “Denial” (The modern-day heresy) while actively in denial himself. His hypocritical behaviour is certainly very reminiscent of the sort of behaviour on expects of religious fanatics of all persuasions.

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 21:51 utc | 135

Luca:
“You see, rkka, that the kind of stupid bs that has been totally debunked by Suvorov and others.
If The soviet tanks were obsolete then the german armor must be considered as even more obsolete.
A comparison of the types shows this very clearly. Suvorov covers this in detail, debunking such claims in his latest book, ‘The Chief Culprit’.
Of course the soviet weapon systems were not perfect and had problems as did the soviet military. But then so did the germans.”
My favorite bit of ‘Suvorov’ was in ‘Inside the Soviet Army’ when he describes the 10 Airborne Corps the Soviet Army organized.  He goes on to say that a Corps in a western army numbered about 50,000 men.  He concluded from this that the Red Army had half a million paratroopers in 1941, a clear demonstration of eeevul Soviet intent to attack Western Europe, then under the benevolent care of the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe.
Liar Suvorov was perfectly aware that a 1941 Soviet Airborne Corps had less than 10,000 men in it, and that there were only five of ’em on 22 June 1941.  Since then I have become very familiar with ‘Suvorov’s mendaciousness in argument, and nothing I have seen from him since has been any less mendacious.
On a separate topic, did the Soviet Army deliberately halt before Warsaw in August 1944 in order to let the Germans wipe out the Warsaw Uprising?

Posted by: rkka | May 3 2015 22:47 utc | 136

LOL — You fancy yourself – what? An irritant? A sphincter?
I’m not so much moving to the high ground as watching you dig in deeper. Still no real content for us to mock you about, wise move. Well, except a sympathy for denialism, and a dislike of anyone not foaming at the mouth on Fox, apparently.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 3 2015 23:02 utc | 137

@rkka
Your sad sorry attempts at sarcasm and silly attacks on Suvorov – bc what he says does not fit the agenda and your worlview – say much about u.
Professor Albert Weeks wrote of Suvorovs latest book; ‘a remarkable book. A delayed bombshell that includes very pertinent new reaserch and discoveries Suvorov has made since 1990. He makes savvy readers of contemporary and wwII history of a mind to reexamine the soviet past in terms of what historians call ‘present interest’. None of the ‘new russian’ historians can match his masterful sweep of research and analysis.’
About the ‘obsolete soviet armor’;
Of the 3.500 german tanks and assault guns at the start of Barbarossa, more than 1.700 were of the light PzKpfw I, PzKpfw II,PzKpfw 35(t), PzKpfw 38. plus of the main german tank supposed to fight other tanks, the PzKpfw III, 269 were still armed with a 37 mm gun and less armor. So, if all the soviet tanks, except the t-34s and KVs, were obsolete, then the german armored force was obsolete.
As for the soviet airborne forces. In his new book, Suvorov does say the soviets had 10.000 airborne… by the end of 1933.
He says though, that just between 1934-36 in Ukraine alone, 427.000 men received parachute training. He goes on to say that in light of declassified documents, the real figure is actually larger than the Pravda paper had stated.
He gives the archival ref; the communist party archive of the institute of party history, central committee of the communist party of ukraine, fund 7, index 1, case 1330, sheet 32.
He devotes an entire chapter to the subject.

Posted by: Luca K | May 3 2015 23:29 utc | 138

@ rufus
“I think you deeply misguided about the Holocaust and a waste of time to discuss exactly how deeply so with you.”
Your poor devil, i know more about the so called holocaust than u will in 10 lifetimes.
What is a ‘waste of time’ is to try to discuss the subject with the cult followers, such as yourself.
As for Gilad Atzmon, i misrepresented NOTHING.
When i have time I’ll quote from articles written by him on this matter. Then i guess you’ll have to dismiss Atzmon too.

Posted by: Luca K | May 3 2015 23:42 utc | 139

Yo, Date Rape, in answer to your little rant at 137, and noting that you are still whipping the “denialism!!” Heresy/hypocrisy to death, and thus proving my point, i can only repeat what I said earlier
“the lefty liars, especially moas local self-obsessed bigass kardashian wannabe and date-rape exspurt Rufie, do seem to love constructing dodgy fake moral-high grounds from which to attempt to berate their opponents
The fact they themselves very frequently display every undesirable personality trait that they accuse their opponents of, seems lost to them entirely
Posted by: lol | May 3, 2015 3:24:26 AM | 118”
Poor deluded Rufie, like the good little “end justifies the means” hypocrite he is , is still ranting about “Denial” (The modern-day heresy) while actively in denial himself. 

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 23:45 utc | 140

If nothing else Rufie certainly is a very well trained little shabbos goy

Posted by: lol | May 3 2015 23:46 utc | 141

Luca, Suvorov is mendacious because he says that the Red Army had 10 Airborne Corps with 50,000 men in each when the Germans attacked when they really had 5 Airborne Corps of 10,000 men in each on 22 June 1941. Suborov writes that with the intent to deceive. He’s not trustworthy.

Posted by: rkka | May 4 2015 0:44 utc | 142

LameOnLame — I don’t know why you’re such an exhibitionist. There’s really nothing to see there, is there?

Posted by: rufus magister | May 4 2015 1:23 utc | 143

Luca K — I think I’ve cited a few decent sources on tne Nazis. I’ll stick to orthodoxy of the cult of trained historians and journalists, if you don’t mind.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 4 2015 1:25 utc | 144

Yeah Luca
How dare you deny the divinity of the “trained historians” and the “journalists”
Heretic!
Burn him!
——
“Trained historians”.
Lol
And “journalists”!
Who better to bring us “De troof!” Eh rufie?
Double lol rufie
You keep them cracking bon mots coming. I’ll always have some time to spare to laugh at yer little jokes.
“Trained historians” – that one’s a real sidespliter, had to tape up my ribs after that one

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 2:33 utc | 145

05/04/2015 00:02
Russian Spring
From words of Eduard Basurin, the representative of Donetsk Republic Defense, 57 incidents of ceasefire violation were counted today.
“The Ukrainian forces adhere the course of provocations having fired salvo rocket systems “Grad”, heavy artillery, tanks, mortars, anti-tank guided missiles, grenade launchers and small arms”, he said.
Also Basurin informed of today’s casualties, which amounted to two civilians. “Losses of personnel of the Donetsk Republic Army totaled six wounded. Two civilians died and seven were wounded”, he said.
Hamlet Sakhanka in Novoazovk area on the south of Donetsk Republic stays at top of the list of settlements targeted from Ukrainian positions. Today’s evening it was attacked with the use of a salvo rocket system “Grad”.

Posted by: Fete | May 4 2015 3:53 utc | 146

fete, thanks for these updates..

Posted by: james | May 4 2015 5:01 utc | 147

LOL — Better bon mots than potty mouth.
It’s more like “A stupid fascist, let’s mock him.” Something educational, not lethal. No fact-free fantasies for you.
Like I said, ain’t nothing there, so put it away, no one wants to see it. There’s a good little boy.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 4 2015 11:29 utc | 148

LOL — Better bon mots than potty mouth.
Posted by: rufus magister | May 4, 2015 7:29:58 AM | 148

lol
I knew it would be only a matter of time before the idiot would retreat to his pathetic fake moral high ground bullshit
Without a fake moral high ground poor ol rufie usually has nothing of interest to say – all his comments are simply attempts by him to try to claim some sort of moral superiority
All religious fanatics usually retreat to this tactic when ever they have nothing to say but their pathetic little egos force them to say something anyway – and the really hypocritical ones like Rufie do it most regularly
and if there’s one thing we’ve noticed about Rufie it’s his propensity for blatant hypocrisy

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 12:11 utc | 149

anyway
“trained historians”
still chuckling over that one
the pomposity is almost blinding . . . .

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 12:12 utc | 150

@lol [150]
‘”trained historians”
still chuckling over that one
the pomposity is almost blinding”
Pomposity and utter intellectual Bankruptcy!
Gilad Atzmon wrote a great piece back in 2010, called ‘Truth, History and Integrity’.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/truth-history-and-integrity-by-gilad-atzmon.html
He has a few things to say about the field of History and the beloved ‘trained’ historians of rufus.
Some quotes from it;

[…]The ADL’s behaviour(re the alleged Armenian genocide[my comment]) is a glimpse into the notion of Jewish history and the Jewish understanding of the past. For the nationalist and political Jew, history is a pragmatic tale, it is an elastic account. It is foreign to any scientific or academic method. Jewish history transcends itself beyond factuality, truthfulness or correspondence rules with any given vision of reality. It also repels integrity or ethics. It by far prefers total submission, instead of creative and critical thinking. Jewish history is a phantasmic tale that is there to make the Jews happy and the Goyim behave themselves. It is there to serve the interests of one tribe and that tribe only. In practice, from a Jewish perspective, the decision whether there was an Armenian genocide or not is subject to Jewish interests: is it good for the Jews or is it good for Israel.
[…]
The ADL’s treatment of the Armenian topic is just one example. The Zionist’s dismissal of a Palestinian past and heritage is just another example. But in fact any Jewish collective vision of the past is inherently Judeo-centric and oblivious to any academic or scientific procedure.
When I was young and naïve I regarded history as a serious academic matter. As I understood it, history had something to do with truth seeking, documents, chronology and facts. I was convinced that history aimed to convey a sensible account of the past based on methodical research. I also believed that it was premised on the assumption that understanding the past may throw some light over our present and even help us to shape a prospect of a better future. I grew up in the Jewish state and it took me quite a while to understand that the Jewish historical narrative is very different. In the Jewish intellectual ghetto, one decides what the future ought to be, then one constructs ‘a past’ accordingly. Interestingly enough, this exact method is also prevalent amongst Marxists. They shape the past so it fits nicely into their vision of the future. As the old Russian joke says, “when the facts do not conform with the Marxist ideology, the Communist social scientists amend the facts (rather than revise the theory)”.
When I was young, I didn’t think that history was a matter of political decisions or agreements between a rabid Zionist lobby and its favorite holocaust survivor. I regarded historians as scholars who engaged in adequate research following some strict procedures.[…]
When I was young and naive I was also somehow convinced that what they told us about our ‘collective’ Jewish past really happened. I believed it all, the Kingdom of David, Massada, and then the Holocaust: the soap, the lampshade*, the death march, the six million.
As it happened, it took me many years to understand that the Holocaust, the core belief of the contemporary Jewish faith, was not at all an historical narrative for historical narratives do not need the protection of the law and politicians. It took me years to grasp that my great-grandmother wasn’t made into a ‘soap’ or a ‘lampshade’*.
[…]
“Some of the worst mass murderers in history were Jews” writes Zionist Sever Plocker on the Israeli Ynet disclosing the Holodomor and Jewish involvement in this colossal crime, probably the greatest crime of the 20th century.[…]

The bit from Plocker also helps one understand one possible reason why there is a lot of people hard at work downplaying the crimes of Stalinism. Jews were heavily over represented in the terror machinery, up until the purges of 37.
At the same time, just as with the Armenian ‘genocide’, the zionists do not want other ‘genocides'(such as the Ukranian famines) to compete with their own.

Posted by: Luca K | May 4 2015 16:19 utc | 151

At the same time, just as with the Armenian ‘genocide’, the zionists do not want other ‘genocides'(such as the Ukranian famines) to compete with their own.
Posted by: Luca K | May 4, 2015 12:19:24 PM | 151

Yes
One can clearly see this in action when one views how the likes of Rufie react when someone dares to point out the existence of genocidal actions on any non-Jewish population, especially if Jewish Psychopaths were heavily over-represented in the list of culprits, as is the case regarding the Holodomor
The How-DARE-you’s come thick and fast after that
The screams of “Denier” (the modern day version of “Heretic!!” or “Witch!!”) are only surpassed by the screamers own attempts at “denial” of the genocide of Non-Jews.
The irony is of course completely lost on turds like Rufie, and the blatant hypocrisy is completely ignored by their sycophantic halfwit fellow travellers

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 16:38 utc | 152

in re 149-152
Oh isn’t that sweet? We’ve managed to reunite the Totenkopf Twins atop the moral heights of Holocaust Denialism! Well, there’s my good deed for the day.
Luca — With all due respect, your article is not about historians, it’s about the JDL’s attempts to control use of the past. I hold no brief for them, nor for their ongoing attempts to shut down debate over Palestine; the settlements are a crime, DC an enabler.
As I said, I read Gilad Atzmon as wanting to re-examine the use of the Holocaust, not wishing to deny or minimize it. Feel free to present something more on point if you wish.
So far neither of you have demonstrated anything about the reality or unreality of the Holocaust. Nor did you really “revise” the origins of The Great Patriotic War, which is where this started. Plenty of heat, absolutely no light.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 4 2015 23:21 utc | 153

Burn the heretics!
Burn the witches!
They deny my right to demand uniformity on the subject of the divinity of the Holy Caust!
Burn em!

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 23:24 utc | 154

Still chucklin over “Trained historians” rufie
Every time i try to picture it all i get is something akin to trained monkeys

Posted by: lol | May 4 2015 23:28 utc | 155

As always, no evidence, accept or be mocked. Do you’re worst, here’s a shovel for you to keep on diggin’ — I go with trained over untrained monkeys every time.
Keep at it, one day you boys will in fact produce the entire works of Shakespeare. My money is on the other Totenkopf Twin.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 5 2015 1:16 utc | 156

It’s a little weird that The Washington Times sees the Ukraine better the WaPo or the NYT. See Feudal Lords Jockey for Power, Land in Ukraine. “Feudal” seems a little strong — at this time.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 5 2015 2:59 utc | 157

Don’t worry Rufus, they’ll get to feudal soon enough.

Posted by: rkka | May 5 2015 9:34 utc | 158

@rufus
“As I said, I read Gilad Atzmon as wanting to re-examine the use of the Holocaust, not wishing to deny or minimize it.”
That you have the straight face to write such an idiotic statement after i actually posted the link and excerpts from Atzmons text finally exposes you as the sad little LIAR u are.
Not to mention close minded fanatic.
Now, watch Gilad Atzmon interview one of the greatest holocau$t revisionist historians, professor R.Faurisson;
Gilad Atzmon rencontre Robert Faurisson – 10 juin 2014( Gilad reencounters Faurisson)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2e7359_gilad-atzmon-rencontre-robert-faurisson-10-juin-2014_school?start=94

Posted by: Luca K | May 5 2015 17:11 utc | 159

@rufus
“So far neither of you have demonstrated anything about the reality or unreality of the Holocaust. Nor did you really “revise” the origins of The Great Patriotic War, which is where this started.”
Never did i even intend to write about the holohoax.
As for the ‘great patriotic war’, I have shown references to a lot of books, Solonins website and even a summary of some of the work. This is as much as can be expected in a comment section by someone who has to work for a living.
But one can only take the donkey to the pond but not force it to drink from it. You are the donkey… in more ways than u imagine.

Posted by: Luca K | May 5 2015 17:18 utc | 160

“@rufus
“So far neither of you have demonstrated anything about the reality or unreality of the Holocaust. Nor did you really “revise” the origins of The Great Patriotic War, which is where this started.”
Never did i even intend to write about the holohoax.
As for the ‘great patriotic war’, I have shown references to a lot of books, Solonins website and even a summary of some of the work. This is as much as can be expected in a comment section by someone who has to work for a living.
But one can only take the donkey to the pond but not force it to drink from it. You are the donkey… in more ways than u imagine.”
References to mendacious Suvorov, and claims that forces along the Dniepr were in ‘attack positions’ on 22 June 1941 tell us all we need to know about the sort of books you read.

Posted by: rkka | May 7 2015 9:11 utc | 161

Luca at 160 —
I’m with rkka at 161 on this one. You didn’t mean to discuss the Holocaust, but you cribbed your material from a site that does. When questioned about it, you then picked up the ball and ran with it, with help from lol.
One is known by the company one keeps. Your denialism does nothing for your credibility. As rkka notes, while you cited sources, Suvorov and Bunich don’t have a lot of authority.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 7 2015 12:05 utc | 162

@rkka
you are the mendacious one , ‘rkka’.
‘ad hominem’ attacks on Suvorov won’t do and he’s
far from the only Russian researcher to have
reached the same conclusion. Many western historians have come to agree with him as well.
You are a nobody. As i said before, professor Albert Weeks, who has studied the soviet archives and written his own book on the subject and knows very well the russian historians dispute, wrote of Suvorovs latest ‘Chief Culprit’; ‘a remarkable book. A delayed bombshell that includes very pertinent new reaserch and discoveries Suvorov has made since 1990. He makes savvy readers of contemporary and wwII history of a mind to reexamine the soviet past in terms of what historians call ‘present interest’. None of the ‘new russian’ historians can match his masterful sweep of research and analysis.’
U wanna keep on believing in the many feel good myths of the so called ‘great patriotic war’, be my guest. Putin uses it very much the same way as the zamericans, brits and french use their own self-serving lies about the war to fit their agenda.
WWII ‘history’ is largely BS.

Posted by: Luca K | May 7 2015 17:12 utc | 163

luca at 162 —
You may recall I dismissed the archival “evidence” out of hand. The best evidence of the German motivation in attacking would be — the Germans.
Do the vast qty’s. of German docs. and memoirs anywhere suggest this is what moved the Nazis to attack in June 1941? Surely conservatives would have publicized it, just to have further darkened the Soviets reputation. “You can’t trust them, they were planning to attack Germany in violation of the Pact, you know” would have been the line. There were plenty of conservative historians in the late 40’s and early 50’s, surely they would have seized upon it.
I recall that rkka (and others) have countered some of the specific evidence you offered, so I will not rehash that.
The notion that Stalin had some sort of scheme to invade or control Western Europe is belied by post-war events. He and Churchill famously set out “spheres of influence” at Yalta, and these men largely respected that agreement. The left critique of Stalin at this time is that he pulled back the French Communists from capitalizing on their leadership in the Resistance. The Greek Civil War was largely Tito’s idea; that was a British sphere.
I will say that I did a bit of research on A.L. Weeks. A journalist and policy analyst, his views are quite conservative. The Washington Times, for which he wrote, liked his book; see the Amazon listing for Stalin’s Other War. The small no. of highly favorable user-reviewers there largely seem predisposed to Weeks and Suvorov case.
Gorodetsky’s work cited above that debunks earlier iterations of this line for its part was well received.
The conventional explanation is that Hitler tired of his failed attempt to force Britain into submission via the Luftwaffe. Further, the Wehrmacht were unfamiliar with amphibious operations, and could not execute “Operation Sea Lion.” So the fascists turned to fulfill Hitler’s volkische vision of “Drang nach Osten.” Stalin, puzzling, fails to realize what’s up.

Posted by: rufus magister | May 7 2015 23:40 utc | 164